Mini 1252 - My Not So Humble Abode - Game Over

[Sir Bastion]

vote beck

for posting before the start of the game

[Sir Bastion]

Hello everypony (suck it Johman #1 ponies rock!)

right first thing first, Johman's the hydra right? Havnt had any experience playing against a Hydra so I assume there are some quirks one must note about the posting behaviour.

I assume one player posting a post and the other being forced to defend it when even he doesnt get why could be a bit of a pain.

So I doubt a case on him until I get a better feel for his posting.

MOD: How much of this hydra account should we know as players? Or is it all left to the goodwill of Johman to be honest about it?

Moving on, aint we all so very active and colourful.

But lets look at the less so colourful active players. Now I know for definite two havnt been online yet since we started so no unusual lurking. Draken I cant confirm if he's on or not, but he's an aussie so the naturally time for him to show up would be around 4-7am UK time.

So nothing unusual there.

But we do have two players who are somewhat active...but quietly active. Beck and Edgerobin, posting but not really discussing. Edge hasnt been around since he posted his two teenie posts. But Becky

Becky O Hare! tell me what are your actual thoughts on the case of Johman? I mean you are here. Fairly regular throughtout the day but the posts, they're so mini!

Lets hear some contribution beyond timid observation.

Good thing my vote's already on you, we could just let that sit there until you get your voice.

[Sir Bastion]

@Sir Bastion, I do believe you completely ignored 2 of the non-posters. 2birds1stone and bvoigt haven't yet posted either. Did you not notice them, ignore them, or get distracted by talking about becky?

Re-read my post baby!

I said I knew 2 players hadnt been on yet (2birds1stone and bvoigt) because their profiles say they last logged in before the game started.

MOD: How much of this hydra account should we know as players? Or is it all left to the goodwill of Johman to be honest about it?

How much of what? The only thing different with this account is that we are two players on the same account, and we are Johhog (me) and racerman13 (who hasn't posted yet, bastard). I don't think Thomith could confirm it without a check with Flay but don't you think that the real Johhog and racerman13 would complain if we was someone else?

~Johhog

Like I said I dont know anything about playing against a Hydra, but I was curious if hydras needed to confirm how many players are in the account and if they needed to state when Johman #1 is talking or johman #2, as I was worried that two different posting styles could cause people to mislynch the hydra for inconsistencies?


anywho single big posts. That's my style

so firstly

becky I

unvote

thee!

Content at last

I singled you because I tend to believe scum to be somewhat active lurkers at the beginning of a game, not outright lurking (though I did check to see if anyone was online but not posting) but posting *teenie* irrelevent posts without pushing the game forward. Which your first 5 posts were pretty much. But now you are moving this game forward and I approve.

And I called you Becky O'Hare because Rainbowdash has got me all nostalgic for cartoons and I thought of this:

http://youtu.be/k6Mh7hhaqhk
(though Mighty Max was so much more awesome)

I think its gonna stick now.

MOD: Thanks! I dont think its necessary, I just wanted to know if there were any extra things one needs to know for playing hydras

Now lets see

Since the other late comers have arrived (more Aussies! YAY!) I'll be quick

@2birds1stone: I'm GMT, but due to my work times I'll be on at unusual hours (and also due to the Battlefield 3 beta most hours!)

@Draken I dont find his reluctance to push a vote unusual, hell I'm looking at the lurker/active lurkers because I find the scumtells to be pretty weak on the active players and until they contribute.

So for more contribution I am now turning my attention to:

Vote: Scumhunter

Since it was his vote that started a lot of the drama at the moment but he's not contributing to it despite being online since. Kinda feels like someone who started a food fight but then slipped outside and is looking in through the window.

[Sir Bastion]

Sir Bastion, why are you so concerned with the people not posting when there is plenty of people talking that you could focus on?

I've asked my line of questioning on the current popular bandwagon of Johman...I think its fair to say I'm not letting the talking people go without scrutiny. When I see something that no one else is questioning then I'll ask more questions. Until then Rainbow Dash and TSG are doing a bang up job prodding that they beat me to a lot of my questions.

I also dont want the thread to get tunnelled into letting other players sneak by day 1 without scrutiny.

More important, did you honestly just blame scumhunter's rvs vote for starting the whole mess?

I've heard of grasping at straws but man that's a fucking reach.

No I dont blame him for starting it, I am questioning why he hasnt commented since.

Person A makes a comment, someone else chimes in on that comment and then another takes offense at the 2nd persons chimed comment and the two start fighting. It would be somewhat mannerly and in the spirit of a good person (i.e townie) for person A to step in and give their 2 cents on the development since their innocent comment.

Its a little scummy to let the fight continue and ignore it.

Scumhunter has been online since the little tiff started, but he hasnt commented.

I think its only fair he gives his 2 cents.

[Sir Bastion]

@SB - Thoughts on Johman, and the way his wagon went? Have you played with hydras before?

I assume this is me. I already said. I havnt played Hydras before. I am hoping though I am not blind and his sig announcing he is a hydra is a recent addition or me and Beck will need to see an opticion.

On his wagon, I dont agree with protectors reasons, I feel he has no conviction behind his posting and is somewhat pressured into it because he FOS Johman but pushed on TSSR and is now backtracking back to protect himself from scrutiny from yourself, TSGR and Johman (all of you criticized/voted him over it) Palmer's reasoning makes sense...but I dont understand why he posted twice with no explanation and only gave one after pushed on it. I'd assume if one would want to convince others with their vote. Weirdbeard has signed on to this case. None of its strong enough for me at the moment.

[Sir Bastion]

@SB - Thoughts on Johman, and the way his wagon went? Have you played with hydras before?

On his wagon, I dont agree with protectors reasons, I feel he has no conviction behind his posting and is somewhat pressured into it because he FOS Johman but pushed on TSSR and is now backtracking back to protect himself from scrutiny from yourself, TSGR and Johman (all of you criticized/voted him over it) Palmer's reasoning makes sense...but I dont understand why he posted twice with no explanation and only gave one after pushed on it. I'd assume if one would want to convince others with their vote. Weirdbeard has signed on to this case. None of its strong enough for me at the moment.

Ok so you are calling Johman null-town maybe? Can you give me more of a read on Weird and Palmer?

@TSGR - Vote somepony and give a small case on them.

heh

Well Palmer has 3 posts so I'd consider it unfair to judge him by them, aside from what I already pointed out. His first post is to vote, but its only 2 posts later that he justifies it. Just doesnt make sense. From a scum perspective its like someone voted first and came up with a reason afterwards.

Weirdbeard is pretty straightforward he made his reasons quite clear here:

But then, who isn't at this stage? Town grasps at straws until either someone slips, or enough information is gathered to build strong cases on people.

and here:

In lieu of anything better to go on

, I'm going to put my vote this way too. If you found it scummy, why not vote him?

VOTE: Protector

kind of makes him a hypocrite though when he admits his votes carry no real weight because he is just putting the vote on anything that has a half baked case for the moment and yet thats the the very same case being pushed against Johman

In addition, if you announce that your vote is to start a bandwagon, or to put pressure, you have defeated the purpose. This sucks if you're town, but it's good if you're mafia because you don't actually want people to follow your lead if you're mafia unless you're a really strong player. He's basically just throwing away responsibility with this unnecessary addition.

Weirdbeard has done pretty much the same thing. He's announced he will put his vote anywhere, its just for show.

Of course thats all just for now, as the game progessess I expect WB to vote with reason. I just dont understand why he wont extend the same gratitude to Johman.


Rainbowdash back at you:

Thoughts on Lurkers, both the ones who post and the active ones who post irrelevance. And with that in mind the less active players on here?

[Sir Bastion]

Thoughts on Lurkers, both the ones who post and the active ones who post irrelevance. And with that in mind the less active players on here?

Too early to get concerned about lurkers, give it another 48 hours or so and we can talk.

Fair enough.

@Becky: Are you saying you will let a lurker slip by without scrutiny on day 1?

[Sir Bastion]

Sir Bastion, I'm not so sure that I'm a hypocrite for 'putting my vote anywhere'. Certainly I don't need anything more than a mild suspicion to throw my vote someone's way, but that still casts doubt on that person, and puts pressure on them to defend themselves. The things people come out with when I make such moves can be telling, if not necessarily now, then later in the game. And truth be told, I'm not putting it 'anywhere'. If I have a reason to finger someone as having scummy behaviour then I will do so, even if that reason is fairly weak.

Ok to be clear, its not that I consider you a hypocrite for putting your vote anywhere its that you admitted you were voting on weak reasons.

Johman was pulled by Palmer because Palmer saw him admitting that he was on a bandwagon as purposely sabotaging his own votes worth by saying its nothing more then a bandwagon. You had done the very same not long after in the 2 posts I quote when you admit that there is no substantial basis for your current voting. Yet you then applaude Palmer's logic for his vote when it could as easily had been applied to you.

Its all irrelevent, I dont think its a scumtell at all. But it was the only observation I really could make when RB asked for some. Similar to how the only read I have on Palmer is his delayed justification.

Personally, I think inactivity lurking is null, but active lurking can be a scumtell. How about you? Do you think it's worth getting worried about lurkers after 5 pages?

No but I like to bang the drum early game letting them know that they are being watched. And I will watch them, I just get worried about them disapearing into the crowd. Especially active ones.

I dont agree with lynching lurkers on day 1 except in a compromise scenario, but on day 2 they would be my main suspects.

Saying that I do pay attention to the active dates on profiles to compare lurker vs someone who hasnt been online, hence me prodding Scumhunter as he has been active today and yet no post here.

[Sir Bastion]

Might aswell defend myself

SB probably falls off the list next, but lean this pony scum, back and forth moreso then the next pony im going to cover. I REALLY disliked his first content post, and still am not at all a big fan of him continually ignoring the elephants in the room that are Protector and Johman.

This is a bit unfair. Because you then:

It took me specifically bringing up Johman before I even got him to talk about anything that pony has done that

has nothing to do with hydra-ing,

2 things.

firstly the hydra-ing talk was directly linked to Johman. So saying I was ignoring what was at that time of posting the biggest wagon in the game is a blatant lie. I picked up on it because I was reading through posts and I noticed Beck asking about hydras (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3476042) and the mod giving an answer without stating who and when I was background checking Johman to compare his posting styles (yes I am an incredible anal player, if you hate that about some players you will hate me for it) to see how he had reacted under pressure in prior games and I saw that he was the hydra (how I missed his signature I dont know)

Hence my talk of hydra etc are directly linked to the so called elephant in the room.

Secondly hydra talk was only half of that post, the 2nd half was yes partially directed at lurkers, as I've explained numerous times (and partially the reason for it to come up so often) I think its good policy to ring a big old bell to tell players who are thinking of lurking that someone will be watching for such so get active!

And more so on this I didnt focus on *lurkers* I focused on Becky, who I pulled up for his contentless posting in the early game and prodded to be more active. Seeing as he now has the most posts on the thread that could be seen as a somewhat successful post by me (depends how you look at his later posts...)

even then I got a really vauge answer. Again with Palmar he dodged the question about what he really thinks about him, although this time he uses a lack of evidence move.

Define dodge here? I stated I had lack of evidence to go on but I still pointed out stuff that I saw as unusual. I talked about his bizarre late justification for voting Johman.

He stays really interested in 'lurkers' though even though this game has only been open what... 36 hours at this point? I know I tend to be a very active pony so me going away for that period of time is noticeable, but someponies wont post daily due to life commitments. I think faulting somepony on this without good evidence that they are intentionally avoiding the game is bad.

This is possibly the only genuine criticism you have, I guess I could put it down to my last game which in comparison to this was stupidly overactive (we went 45 pages before our first lynch and at this same point the other players had put me at L-1) so I came into this game expecting the same level of activity. Besides I explained my thinking on every subject.

He also keeps using this as an excuse to not follow up on any game suspicion, like what he appears to have on wierdbeard.

My suspicion on wierdbeard I did follow up. The 2nd half of the post was answering a different poster.

Unless by follow up you mean with my vote? No I dont think my suspicion is strong enough to follow up with that right now, besides if I believe the case is weak against Johman (and you do too) then you would agree that my suspicion on Wierdbeard is also pretty weak. I followed up as I wanted.

So I guess this is the point when we lay out our first scum lists?

well sadly its 5am here so you'll have to wait til tomorrow for mine.

Until then my musical contribution http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1HZp4ClFXY

[Sir Bastion]

Bastion, I'd be less concerned about when people log on the site as it's irrelevant to the game and borders on using "outside influences" which is a site rule, plus it's a really crappy way to play. If he doesn't post in the time allowed, let the mod deal with him.

If there is a problem with the way I play then bring it up with the mod. I swear I end up talking about lurkers more so because people keep harassing me about mentioning them in my first post...

Irregardless lets take a look of how things are laid out.

No.

UNVOTE: Protector
VOTE: weirdbeard

~Johhog

Oh Johman please dont be like Palmer and vote without explanation It makes me a sad bunny. After I gave you something of a Bastion seal of approval

I'd point to Rainbowdash as signs of how to push a vote. You want other people to agree with you.

Which is important because moving on to the new 2birds/palmer/weirdbeard wagoning

-2birds logic is flawed yes and is incredible weak case. Its trying very hard to wrap Raindbow's case against weirdbeard and TGS all into one conspiracy...

But is it scummy?

well Palmer thinks so but its another meta WIFOM trying to read the player...which unless you've played 2stone before (checks history...nope)then breaking down his argument is the most you can do and pushing it further into a scumtell is excessive. I cant possible see the advantage of playing a hand so badly on purpose as a scumplan unless its bait.

but If you want to look at a confusingly bad play that looks somewhat scummy

I also disagree with 2bird1stone's logic. Believe me, as a scum-sided player the LAST thing you'd see me do would be sheeping my partner's case on day one, unless it was on a player who looked massively scummy to the playerbase at large. I think that looking at who people DON'T vote for is about the best information you can get from day one.

Now, 2birds1stone, do you honestly believe that the whole scum-team would vote together on such a weak reason to early in the game?
Unvote
VOTE: 2birds1stone

Someone's put a big case out on you and has accused you of playing a bit like an oppurtunistic sheep and you ignore it and jump on to a different wagon? That is very suspect. its also bizarre as it is something that seems a bit too careless...

I must ask though what is it about palmer's arguments that are so convincing for you WB? This would be the 2nd time you would join him on a wagon (and possible making 2bird more convinced he is right)

Vote: WierdBeard

Good to hear from you scumhunter hope for some quality input.


EDIT: damnit rainbow you got to be confused before me

Fixed Bold tags

Thomith.

[Sir Bastion]

oh forgot.

Wierdbeard is now at L-3

[Sir Bastion]

That's just creepy...

[Sir Bastion]

Also, I HATE the term WIFOM. It's overused.

Think about what is LIKELY and what is not. Scum are not LIKELY to all attempt to push a lynch together, and certainly not from absolute zero votes on the player.

Scum are LIKELY to distance themselves early game and have conflicting vote patterns and reads to stop players drawing obvious links between them.

Ok back at you same logic. What does 2birds if he is scum getting out of accusing you three and voting Palma? As a scumplayer what advantage does putting out such a stretch get him?


The only thing I can think of is a rise from the three of you painting yourselves guilty (which two of you did) or its a possible bus?

[Sir Bastion]

So it'san OMGUS?

[Sir Bastion]

So it'san OMGUS?

I hate that term too. And no it's not. Don't insult my intelligence and read the case.

lets be polite to that intelligence then.

You have stated the following:

Bad logic is a scum-tell. Scum have to APPEAR to scumhunt and thus holes often appear in their arguments.

I have a case on him. Arguments with poor logic are a scum-tell to me.

I have asked you to provide what it is that 2birds1stone gains

as scum

from his theory and vote.

You admit:

That is a very good point.

I actually don't think it's either of the things you've brought up

(I think the 'painting ourselves guilty' thing is too much of a stretch and I find a day one bus HIGHLY unlikely).

It could potentially be that he's hoping not to push a lynch on Palmar but to STILL FoS me, resulting in him helping push a lynch on me without leaving a vote trail.

That's also seeming a LITTLE far-fetched to me.

So he gains nothing from his actions and there is no reason you or Palmer have provided that beyond suggesting something stupid there is nothing to the 2stone case.


This puts you in a pickle because the reasons left for voting him are also

bad logic

or OMGUS. If you cant provide reason why his actions will benefit him as scum then your justifications for voting him, that he is using faulty logic apply equally to you.

But they aren't actually around to read that they're being watched.

Hence as I said I check the dates on their profile for the last time they were online.

What led you to this conclusion?

Who says it was a conclusion, there was a ? in that post. But you must admit Weirdbeard's response to it was quite emotive...

[Sir Bastion]

Man, it's early day 1. I don't have answers to all your questions.

Yes you do!

l-1 is still l-1 regardless of what day it is. If you put someone at L-1 you got to have a case. Its scummy as hell to put someone at L-1 and not present a coherent breakdown of the scumminess of the poster.

From what I can tell, I'm trying to lynch him for much the same reason you are... Unless you're saying you don't want to lynch him?

We want to catch scum. That is the end, lynching is the means.

One lynches based on the case, not because they want to lynch.


As such this post sent the scumminess factor through the roof

vote: Draken

Dr D you got to think.

Bastion bugs me, I can't get a solid read on him, and not sure why he thought the other johman head was creepy.

never played a hydra, thought it was creepy how the tone and inflections changed so much, not to mention the suspicions and voting pattern.

[Sir Bastion]

Oh and one other thing

if i had to guess I'd say the scum team is TSG/2bird/draken

hunting for scum teams on day 1 is a mistake and a wasteful exercise. Hunt scum one at a time. This is partly why I disregarded 2stones post as naive and stupid over actually scum intent.

[Sir Bastion]

I assume he does cause he named you part of the scum team. that's two you are now a member of

[Sir Bastion]

out of game drama in the game?

[Sir Bastion]

Okay, now to people who aren't Edgerobin. Yes, it was a very speculative vote. I accept this. I often vote on speculation, due to an overexposure to Ace Attorney

NO!

Ace Attorney style posts are my stick!

If rainbowdash gets to put ponies on her posts I get to do my Ace attorney cases (for when I openly push for a lynch: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3446077)

before you hang you see Phoenix Wright!



speaking of ponies..new episode!


Back to more serious notes

I really hope that outburst wasnt egged on by me? Was on iphone at the time so I couldnt type big message. And It was only me between the two posts.

I figured it would be safe enough day 1 to sit someone at L-1. Why would anyone hammer, they'd be immediately suspect.
Also I suppose 'want to lynch' was a bad choice of words on my part.

Yes

they

would be suspect...but not the person who lined the poor schmuck for the hammering. Hence it can look scummier to be the one to put someone at L-1 then to be the hammer. Especially if you do it with a poorly thought out case.


So we got 3 or so wagons at the moment Draken which is based on him saying something stupid. 2birds which is based on him saying something stupid and finally Weirdbeard which is based on him sheeping.

So few quick questions

-Rainbow you took your vote of weirdbeard because he was put to L-1 which makes sense, would your vote still go to him at the moment or are you onto something else?

-If 2birds or Draken are actual scum would you think they are untalented scum? I mean the issues they are being pulled up on no one has been able to present any sort of case (myself included) beyond those posts being very stupid.

-Weirdbeard seems to have shirked his sheepish status by now restarting a wagon of Johman, course that's brought drama of its own, which we will need to wait until tomorrow to see if there is something more to this (I notice weirdbeard said Johhog instead of johman at the start of his post, so there indeed could be something outside of this game influencing these posts)

[Sir Bastion]

Yeah I went to equestria daily and was sad

then I saw this and smiled:

Once everypony responds to my last few questions I will give reads again, no town ones are changing but new ponies are pinging.

did you have any for me? Cause I might have missed that?

[Sir Bastion]

reads incoming this afternoon.

unvote

I'm in two games with you now, this is going to get me quite confused...

[Sir Bastion]

who's the 1 not voting?

Sorry i am tired and didn't pay attention to changing a number.

Thomith.

[Sir Bastion]

Vote TSGR
Buck Edgar

why the vote?

I still think Johman is likely town here just due to his early game response to the stupid push on him. I would actually like racer to either get civil or get out of the game because I want to be able to keep that slot safe, which he is going to make difficult, but I like the other head posts.

I thought it was johhog was the one who uncivil and racer has been in charge since while he calms himself?

2B1S is fairly on track for why I don't like Edgar at all. The fact that his first few posts seem out of sequence too.

Will need to re-read over Edgar's posts.

[Sir Bastion]

So is that both Johhog and racerman13 getting angry now? This hydra needs a cool head

On the current scenario

-Palmar's outrage & statement feels planned and is therefore naturally scummy. But judging by this comment:

Blowing up like that and insulting people is almost exclusively a townie trait.

But apparently that's considered okay here

It could mean some behind the scenes drama with thomith when he emailed him about his earlier comment.

Dont know if its considered cheating if I ask thomith?

-2birds1stones response on the other hand...

My personal opinion is that policy lynches should only be carried out if there's no better option, and then only if a lynch works in the town's favour from a statistical point of view. The second condition, in this case, is met. Allow me to consider this it overnight.

Why are you even considering to fence sit on this issue?

We are nowhere close to the deadline so the notion of there being any justification for policy lynch with the deadline so bloody far away.

Thats a comment that comes across quite scummy. You are testing the waters for other posters to come out and agree that we should cut Johman loose. You are fishing

and I am voting

vote 2birds1stone

[Sir Bastion]

hmm

thats nice.

are the two of you related?

You blow up in such a similar fashion, you wouldnt be able to tell the difference if you didnt state who was posting each post.

[Sir Bastion]

That basically means Bastion and Beck jumped to the top of my (racerman13's) scumlist.

~racerman13

Well I made my point clear. I see someone testing waters for a wagon j'accuse! And now I wait for a response, if you see something scummy say it.

[Sir Bastion]

@Johman - Shut up. Seriously. You are making this game increadably unenjoyable for everypony else with your attacks here and I am actually a little disappointed that you have not been forced replaced for this behavior already. You acting like this makes it far harder for everypony to function because its creating way too much noise, I actually agree to an extent with Palmar and 2B1S about it being justifiable to policy lynch you for this type of play. Straighten up and fly right, get lynched or replace out, your choice as I could care less what we do if it means keeping this game on the tracks.

Why havnt we asked for a mod call on this? I already mentioned that perhaps Palmer already talked with the mod explaining the policy lynch, but I'd rather a replacement myself if anything, like you said if you have a gut town read on him why waste it when we have other options.


Also I noticed me and Beck are absent of your breakdown there, should I expect an examination when your images are back online?

Johman has been given a final warning, if they still continue this behaviour then he will get force replaced.

Thomith.

[Sir Bastion]

Johman has been given a final warning, if they still continue this behaviour then he will get force replaced.

Thomith.

Ok thank you.


Drama over policy lynch over?

Putting that aside I do still think 2birds reaction to it was somewhat scummy.

[Sir Bastion]

Long story, but essentially, the town's chances of winning are better if there's an even number of people alive at the start of the night compared to the same number of people plus one at the start of the night, e.g., 12 is better than 13. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... rs,_Part_1 for more information.

Yes that statistic supports lynching. It didnt support a lynch on Johman at that moment. We had time on our side, statistical lynching only comes into play if we are in the last few hours and there is no clear suspect. And even then its not a sure thing.

[Sir Bastion]

Why are we talking about math?

Can I get everyponies reads on TSGR?

I thought his reads list was good and some of his initial postings were good at pushing things on (if he intended to or not) but his strange backing of the palmer vote and his noticeable decrease in informative posting and rise in active lurking (like Beck put it) has made me give him a null read.

[Sir Bastion]

sits and plays solitaire until people post more

*Laughs at solitaire and goes plays the battlefield 3 beta*

[explosion]

Like a BAWS!

[Sir Bastion]

Infra fast in bits or whole does not matter just stop teasing!!!

[Sir Bastion]

*sigh*

I'm really trying to find a read here. But I'll be honest I find that the palmer/johman outbursts have poisoned the game as most of the posts following the outbursts have been motivated by those events which seem to be not game related and have people making judgements (such as the somewhat scummy looking 2b1s fencesitting) they might not normally commit in a game.

I mean personnally I'd push to clarify what is out of game drama and what is people just raging (and thus dividing up what is actually game material and what is people being idiots) but I'm not sure how to go about that as I just had one telling down in another game for raising out of game issues in a game. So not doing it here and not even sure where to start.

That was until this:

Yes, my fence-sitting on policy lynches was intentional, I thought I would build up a wagon, and I thought that scum would feel obliged to take advantage of such an easy wagon. Unfortunately, only two people called me out on it.

I call BS, this feels like retconning of the highest level. Considering where the original post occurred between this:

nvote
vote Johman

Policy lynch. I don't actually give a shit. Blowing up like that and insulting people is almost exclusively a townie trait. But apparently that's considered okay here, so I would expect mafia to exactly try to feign being mad. Instead of attacking the arguments, he attacks the intelligence of WB.

I don't like people who do this shit, so I'm voting him.

Fuck scumhunting, I'm just gonna vote to lynch the biggest dick in the game.

and this:

Oh FUCK NO. YOU DID NOT just fucking do that. You JUST SAID blowing up is "almost exclusively a townie trait". So what the fuck is your problem? You scum? Because it's looking more and more that way.

This is NOT an OMGUS vote. Don't even TRY to get me with that. I'm voting him because he made a vote against what he said was a townie player for policy. That's just fucking ridiculous.

Unvote
Vote: Palmar

that was not the time to be scheming some honey trap to lure scum onto a wagon, clearly the game had gone temporarily on hold until that was sorted and you gave a genuine response on your feelings of policy lynches.

Yes I called you up on having a bad policy to fencesit the issue, hell I've called you up on being the only person to consider the option of a policy lynch. But I was seriously thinking of lifting my vote until now, trying to reshape it into scumhunting is much scummier and makes it looks more like you being an opportunistic scumbag trying to cover his ass.

[Sir Bastion]

EDIT: Ahh crap I forgot to write in the name of the first post quote

its 2birds1stone and its this post: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3500284

[Sir Bastion]

Ahh Draken you rub me up the wrong way so much...

But I have a case and I want to see it through before I get back to you. But you, bvoigt and me...we are going to have a chat. A serious one. With rope!

[Sir Bastion]

He also seems unsure of what to do with himself for the most part. I actually see that as quite the town tell, as scum you normally have a few plans for most situations and while you will change tactics, its harder to be a complete loss as to what is going on, and its very hard to SELL that you are at a complete loss as to what is going on. Im actually going to venture out a bit and say that Draken is newbie-town who is way in over his head right now.

Could he not be newbie scum though? And as such there could be possible coaching going on by certain posters in regards of his posts. I mean if we consider the information being provided by certain posts we could get a bit wifomy here and see a pattern.

or not

I am easy waiting on 2birds response to his action.

[Sir Bastion]

Ok I'm not 100% following rainbow's thinking. From what I can gather its binding a number of players together and ousting the one he feels is scum. I cant condone it atm because I still think the case against TSGR is weak atm.


But I shall move on with my own investigations

@2b1s: Fine answer, not much can be said in response for the moment.

So next case

Johman why did you lead Draken's answer just now?

The problem is that he could to that vote as newbtown too, so it's really a nulltell. It's likely that newbtown wants to end days quickly

(I for one was like this).

I can't really get a scumread on Draken. On the other hand I can't get a townread on him either. He's just goddamn null. :/

~J

Sorry guys, was out all yesterday, funnily enough gaming like 2bird said he was.

Day 1 is hard, cause 'all' you have to go on is what people have said. This is in contrast to later days when someone has actually died, and you can look at the interactions of players with the recently deceased.

I get torn between wanting day 1 to end quickly

and wanting to actually have it long enough to produce the interactions that can be looked at day 2 and onwards.

Can someone well me what happened from post 361 to 364 just up this page a bit? I'm rather confused on that...

That's suspect.

Even more when you include this earlier post from Draken:

Just one thing I noted last page.
@Rainbow, the bus and defend scenario I think was concerning Weird and I,

not Johman and I.

over eager covering?


and also while I'd be of the position that Draken could be noob, I am thinking noob scum. He has a few finished games under his belt and is overplaying the noobish card on some issues

like here:

Can someone well me what happened from post 361 to 364 just up this page a bit? I'm rather confused on that...

playing confused at what was clearly innocent banter. And he plays it up a lot throughout the game such as not knowing on the number odds which particulary odd because in a prior (finished) game he was told this already by another player when they explained why a no-lynch was bad. So the noob visage is too much.

so

vote Draken

you are now at

L-2

Fixed Quote Tags.
Thomith.

[Sir Bastion]

Sorry guys, was out all yesterday, funnily enough gaming like 2bird said he was.

Day 1 is hard, cause 'all' you have to go on is what people have said. This is in contrast to later days when someone has actually died, and you can look at the interactions of players with the recently deceased.
I get torn between wanting day 1 to end quickly and wanting to actually have it long enough to produce the interactions that can be looked at day 2 and onwards.

Can someone well me what happened from post 361 to 364 just up this page a bit? I'm rather confused on that...

@2bird,

Yes, my fence-sitting on policy lynches was intentional, I thought I would build up a wagon, and I thought that scum would feel obliged to take advantage of such an easy wagon. Unfortunately, only two people called me out on it.

Are you suggesting you fence-sat to attract a wagon on yourself? To catch scum?
Not sure I follow how this could be a good idea.

Just one thing I noted last page.
@Rainbow, the bus and defend scenario I think was concerning Weird and I, not Johman and I.

[Sir Bastion]

???

that was weird.

I wrote a post asking

mod: can you fix that quotation tag

and that post full of quotes appeared out of nowhere? must have been all the tabs I have open...

Was already fixing the tags.
Thomith.

[Sir Bastion]

Draken wagon is not a good idea today, reason is here #368 and here #374
Johman lynch is acceptable too, but I go with pony for the time being.
I'm up to any questions you guys got for me.

Ok the two posts in question first:

368:

Can you give me a rundown on him then? Im a little torn since I like (most) of the wagon on him, but at the same time I really don't see anything that distiguishes him as Derpy-scum instead of Derpy-town here. There are even a few lines from him that I think are more likely to come from town.

Quick rundown, he's made overly suspicous voting patterns which he's poorly backed up, he has leaned heavily on the derpy town crutch, to an extent that I am claiming BS. Yes he may have not won any of those 3 games, but he endgamed in one which says he's got more then enough experiance to act on standard with someone say like me (no games finished as of the moment.) So I claim foul at his act, It leans more derpy scum then derpy town.

I think the single biggest reason that I think Draken is town is the way he reacted soon after the vote on wierd that I challenged him on. He looked genuinely lost and confused about what went down. While I do realize that scum having the cloud yanked out from under thier hooves could take it poorly, there was no real recover there, and he actually pushed back at me a whole lot more then I would expect scum to do. I think he would realize as scum that the better thing to do would be to try and appease me and go from there isntead of try and buck back.

I assume RB meant this post:

Man, it's early day 1. I don't have answers to all your questions.
From what I can tell, I'm trying to lynch him for much the same reason you are... Unless you're saying you don't want to lynch him?

It looks plausible that one if not both TSG and Weird, could be scum for sheeping him so 'easily'. If this is true, I feel it's more likely Palmar is town (as in I don't think it's likely this would be a bussing situation).
Weird because he continues, and there is a growing consensus against him for other reasons.
If weird is town, that means I'm wrong.

Cant say much to show this is scum except stick to the argument of derpy scum. There are more grounds that this could indeed be Draken's first scum game.

There's not much else I can say to disprove your position based on this post, I do think its a weak position, I dont think Draken's response was strong enough to warrent such an outright gut read.

Draken wagon is not a good idea

today

What warrants Draken as more of bad lynch today over TSG for today?

Also, check out the results of those few finished games 'under my belt'. I have a perfect record atm...
Haven't won once.

doesnt explain you playing ignorance to game mechanics that you were already explained to in prior games, that is what makes it scummy.

[Sir Bastion]

nnecessary walltext.
Try to be objective, I didn't quite get what exactly you want with Rainbow quotes in that walltext.

You said those posts were the justification against a Draken wagon. I'd feel better making sure they were fresh in memory rather then avoided.

Basically, he's a new player lost in D1, perfectly normal.

No it's not. I'm a new player. He has 3 games on him, one he endgamed and one where he filled the role of SE. I have not seen past day 1 yet. I think a better level of scrutiny would be expected. For the love of pony he's been registered since 2009, I think that warrants suspicion.

[Sir Bastion]

Just had a terrible thought. What if RBD is scum? I have a firm townread on her, it's not that, but you guys are sheeping her way too hard.

~J

I have considered this too based on recent observations in some finished games scum can try to control the game's popular front from an early point in day 1. It's not a scumtell but if day2 doesn't go the way rbd wants it to or what I expect doesn't happen then rbd will come under heavy fire. If she is scum she has put herself in a dangerous spot by sticking out the most for when day 2 rolls around.


I'll be writing a more in depth reply to the day's events sometime tonight. At the moment I'm on a phone and have a busy day ahead of me. I'll possibly do a reads post when I get the chance. For the moment though my top 3 scum suspects are: beck, 2birds1stone and Draken. That's in order of low to high suspect. My cases are based on active lurking, manipulation and of course faking newbie town.

[Sir Bastion]

Woohoo for cancelled meeting. Gives me a brief window to sit down and put this out there for discussion.

Firstly some responses

@Draken: I've looked at your other games and in comparison to this one you are much more pro active in other games, more organised and more aggressive:

compare: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=10736

to your ISO this game: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=10736

And its clear that very early in this game you take the wind out of your sails and take a back seat while in the other you were suggesting possible scenarios. Perhaps because you were SE you felt you needed to be more pro active. But other games you played you were also pro active.

Immediate comparison, you have not this game pushed one major case yet, while I can see from your other games you've done somewhat decent cases for example here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3076594


and

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3153194


Also in all your other games you were very active with your vote. Here you have fencesitted on your vote ever since suspicion has been thrown on you. This is very different to how you reacted in the game you replaced in and was an immediate suspect where instead you went on the offensive to protect yourself, here you have curled up and hidden behind Rainbowdash and have been active lurking.

Also this is my 2nd game on the site, I've had one newbie game where I died night 1. I am currently in other games, hence I may appear more experianced then I really am because I'm being grilled three times over at the moment.


@Rainbowdash & Shinki

he may have registered in 2009, the odd thing is he didnt start posting til may 2011 and he has played straight through 3 completed games. Again he endgamed one as SE, replaced in another and was lynched day 4 and played standard the first til he was nightkilled on night 1. That does not say an inexperianced player leaving gaps that is a player who has played consistently for five months improving with each passing game.


Moving on:

My reads are as follows

Bvoigt:

Townread

has been head down scumhunting for most of the game despite not posting a lot each post is asking questions and pointing out flaws.

johman:

null

despite the outburst, the two headed beast has been open and emotional, he hasnt been the most usefull player and has poisoned the case a bit with his outbursts but when the cooler head prevails (whichever it is at the time) he is pushing. Saying that, I still didnt like that he lead Draken and was never answered on that enquiry by both parties so I have suspicions.

palmer

null

is a dick pure and simple. Started strong with scumhunting (even if the cases were sort of weak) but then rolled into a tiff with Johman and has not come out of it yet to many annoyances.

Rainbowdash

leaning town

Our most pro-active and aggressive pony. Of course I'd lean town. Except I think she's taken too much of a spotlight and may have allowed to scum to hide under her wings. Coupled with a focused tunnelling on TSG and the rather flippant disregard of other cases makes me hope she's right otherwise we'll have to work harder to dig out scum.

Scumhunter

null

Its consistent for his playing style, but its not an informative or helpful style at the moment, which means one can hope he's cunning for town and not just lazy scum trying to slip under the radar.

Shinki:

town

Is sheeping rainbow yes, but openly admits that she does so because rainbow is strongest town atm, has argued cases and been informative. All with such few posts, if she stays this active as she posts more then it will be all the more confirmed that she's town

TSGraise

leaning town

I think yeah he's abbrasive and a bit troll like, but unlike scumhunter, he's been quite active. Has done some strange posts here and there. But has otherwise pushed and scumhunted. I liked his reads post it's been the most comprehensive so far. I do question his support of palmer's case early in game, it is suspect.

Weirdbeard

Null/leaning town

he rubbed me up the wrong way initially and as scummy as TSG might have seemed weirdbeard felt just as strange. But he has been chasing the same case I am and when he was active he was extensive. He seems to have gone a bit active lurker at the moment.

2birds1stone

null/scum

I laid out my suspicions earlier, I think 2birds is very clinical and actually feels familer to my own playstyle in parts, but I cant let go that he has in my eyes tried to retcon his own actions so will remain a suspect until I feel that what he says is genuine to his playstyle.

Edgerobin

null

I hate you. you dont post enough and what you post is zzzzzz, you've made one case which was essentially a sheep on palmer and there is not much else to go on.

Beck

null/scum

Yeah this will be the one that comes slightly out of left wing. I find beck's posting suspect because I think he's active lurking through the majority of the game. I called him out on it earlier and he became more pro active, but once the pressure was of him he has again retreated to small soundbite posts with no content. He has only pushed one minor case I agreed with which was the 2birds policy lynch. But his push was so small and replaced with a sheeping on the TSG vote that I cant really call it scumhunting. But purely on content to post ratio he is the scummiest looking player after Draken.

But I doubt he's scumteam with draken. If Draken is scum I'd say Beck isnt, his playing style screams a stronger partner if he is trying to active lurk past day 1. Draken isnt that partner.

Draken

scum

already said why, he is faking his noobtown act, its either the mother of all gambles or he's noob scum trying to play noob town.

[Sir Bastion]

no answer to why you are fencesitting your vote?

[Sir Bastion]

2 things I already pointed to a possible coaching scenario that both parties are ignoring

Also edgerobin why no read on beck?

[Sir Bastion]

I hate you so much

[Sir Bastion]

Oh and drake. I'm on my phone but please be warned you've openly committed another scumtell that when I get home you will be pointed and demanded to explain yourself...


Again.

[Sir Bastion]

Almost home and I have proof!!!

[Sir Bastion]

Right I'm home


I present

THE CASE OF THE NOOB PRETENDER

Draken is a noob pretender, he is actually noob scum trying too hard to play it as someone too naive and pink to possibly be scum.

I have already presented the following facts:

1. Fencesitting

Draken had made one vote all game which proved unpopular and has not made one since all game.

2. Playing dumb

Draken has played ignorant to issues he has already discussed in prior games, specifically the issue of why a no lynch is bad due to statistical advantage. He is clearly experianced with three games under his belt, one of which he lasted right up to the endgame scenario.

3. being coached ingame

There have been signs of other players trying to lead Draken's answers, Johman in #370 giving him an out to a difficult scenario (newbtown wanting to end day 1 early to explain his only vote of the game.) is the most blatant in my opinion.


But I now present the most telling scumtell yet!

Well now I really don't want to vote him O_o...
Cause if I were right, bvoigt looks like he'd take my vote as sure evidence I'm scum.
I'd actually missed that comment from 2bird.

Caution!

It's a well known scumtell, Draken has outright admitted that he wont vote because he doesnt want to be accused himself.

IF

you are town. YOU VOTE! regardless of the accusations that may be thrown at you. YOU ARE TOWN! you should be able to show your voting logic against any accusations. If you think he's scum then you think he's scum there is nothing to hide.

Fencesitting and caution combined is a blatant scumtell.

But

I guess you could say he's such a nervous lost newb town and is genuinely not sure of where to put his vote or push a case....eh RainbowDash...

DRAKEN HAS NEVER BEEN CONFUSED AS TOWN BEFORE TO KNOW HE HAS TO VOTE!

I present my proof:

the ISO of 3 mods of 3 games Draken played in succession from his earliest to his most recent.

Draken may have argued the speed of the game may have shaken his posting rate. But voting rates do not lie and do not need to have the poster be active.

Game 1: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... elect=8413

Draken dies night 1. But all through day 1 he voted and moved his vote, never staying in unvote between polls. In fact he was part of the wagon that lynched.

Game 2: Draken joins on day 3 at #643 http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=10651

He has already voted by the next poll and is again briefly active with his voting before being lynched day 4

Game 3: Draken joins on day 1 and goes all the way to the endgame http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=10157

He is

always

active with his vote except for the first few initial poll counts of day 2.

Finally the Mod's ISO for this game: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=15112

Firstly Draken is the

last

person in the game to cast a vote. It will be vote 1.7 before he votes and by 1.10 he retracts it.

Thats 1.10 on the 4th of October.

We are now at on the 12th and its 1.18

8 days without voting.

Last man in the game to vote.

Completely goes against his voting pattern of 3 games as vanilla townie.

Does not benefit a power role.

Does not show a consistently cautious player, the longest he went without voting in his prior games was 4 days at beginning of day 2 in game 3. He has remained on the fence for twice as long in this game then any prior other game.


So new case points

4. Last to vote

Draken was the last player to vote in this game

5. No vote for 8 days

The longest inactive player in this game votewise and the longest he himself has been inactive

6. Caution/fear of being suspected

Draken has openly ran from voting on a player he openly admitted he thought was scummy just because it risked him looking suspect.

7. No record of cautious voting in the past

The confirmed town draken of 3 games voted! He might leave his vote on some players, but he always voted. He joined wagons and he pushed cases. The Draken of this game has not done so.



Ladies and Gentleman



Draken is scum pure and simple, he has no defence but to pleade ignorance over and over which quite frankly does not help. If he is not scum he is not helping the town. But I ask you this, for purely a point of pressure, to get players to act why didnt Draken join the TSGR wagon? Its not as if he would have put him at L-1 like he did weirdbeard or needed a reason, half that wagon is sheeping rainbow dash. He could have easily slipped in with them.

Why did he join the weirdbeard wagon but not the TSGR one?

its simple, scum partner.

Either TSG or someone on his wagon is his scum partner and when he flips scum they will be the people we will push next.


Ladies and Gentlemen, end this charade. Vote Draken.

[Sir Bastion]

I told you pheonix wright posts were my shtick...

[Sir Bastion]

please play this while readiny my case

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2xvc8G8 ... re=related

[Sir Bastion]

you win the internet!

[Sir Bastion]

My only problem is the last time I presented a case like this I was the one night killed

[Sir Bastion]

Draken's softclaim has killed him if he ain't scum will give full response when at a computer.

For now I still think he's scum and will continue to push.

[Sir Bastion]

Ok some free time so a quick response to Draken.

1. Actually it doesnt matter if you flip scum or town up until you soft claimed me beng a confirmed townie by my case has me marked as a deadman, I didnt want to do it but everyone was shrugging off the draken vote so much I had to go all in to get things done. I mislynched before putting forward a strong case against a player who appeared scummy, he was town but I was still NK'd because I was the safest person to kill at night for him because come day 2 nobody would suspect me of being scum and it would make it harder for them to hide. Now I do believe your scum but regardless of how you flip come tonight I will be the most obvious person to kill.

2. Fence sitting voting last and not voting for a long period is not the same thing.

fence sitting is you avoiding taking sides which is primarily defined by one's voting but more importantly and overlooked (even by me in my post) its by how you write your comments on other cases. Which for you is pretty much you saying you were null/townish on pretty much everyone in your reads list

Rainbowdash
Actually a useful member of the game seemingly. Decent enough

town

read... unfortunately...

Beck

Null-town

, appears to be trying. Also asking for players to be replaced rather than policy lynching. Town motivated idea.

Johman
Is volatile, but I think you already knew that...

Not much other than that.

bvoigt

Gut townish

. Not alot to go on for a solid read.

Sir Bastion
Talks alot of meta-game, not sure if that means anything at all though. Otherwise

gut townish.

weirdbeard
Also voted Johman after Palmar's explanation of his vote.
Weird seems to play similarly to me. I've confused myself earlier so

I don't really know what to think of him now.

Scumhunter
About as active as Edgey, though he has a useful analyzable post.

More useful from D2 with at least 1 confirmed role.

Protector
Has been an initial

gut-town read.

Palmar
Is not making me happy with a policy Lynch. Waiting to see if he cools down and unvotes Johman.
Otherwise,

not alot to go on.

thats fence sitting

not voting just makes it blatant.

Voting last says one of two mindsets

opportunist or cautionary

For you I'd be leaning opportunist as you say a very fast wagon and hope for a quick lynch. Mostly because since then you have not voted. You defined your vote by everyone elses vote. Its a small scumtell

Not voting for 8 days on the other hand says yes its fence sitting, more important though it says voting puts you in possible conflict. As I already mentioned you might have an issue at the moment that the safest place to be on the TSG wagon was not someone you could go and you because of point 6 (fear of suspicion) you didnt want to appear to sheep a weak case (which frankly can be applied to almost all cases here)

These are different issues, they cross over partially but they are not just repeating the same point, they show actual thinking.

3.Ok on your defence I have this to say

firstly you may feel playing it calm and shrugging off my case as clever misreads that you understand (you complimented my case earlier) but are simply wrong is not a good defence, regardless if its true or not. An aggressive response is actually better or a extensive breakdown, either one shows someone who has been comfortable with their posting til now. Trying to play it reasonable actually shows that there are parts of your posting that you have been *artificial and knowingly flawed* not a good town sign.

Secondly the soft role claim was a really bad idea, you are going to be pushed for a full reveal now regardless because you are using it as a defence. If you are genuine, then you are probably dead by scum and its your own fault for taking the wrong response. If you are scum and are unable to convince then you are really dead. Best scenario for you as scum is you force a CC, its also worse scenario for you as town. If you are town you have committed a fubar of the highest level that could severely hurt the town.

Regardless this day is rolling in its endgame, it will finish in the next 5 pages because you have accelerated it with your response.

@2b1s: funnily enough scum said the same thing to me last time I did this, so yeah

FOS 2b1s

@bvoigt: Sums my case up better then me somewhat.

@TSG I agree with the sentiment except I'd be worried about a CC as it will possibly nullify catching 1 scum in exchange for a PR.

[Sir Bastion]

The problem Beck is he's made the claim. Sum or not that claim is going to be a major point on who gets lynched day 1 and possibly who gets nk aswell.

Hell if Draken is genuinely town an alarmist could see he has potentially broken the town rather severely losing a pr over nothing, possibly drawing out other power roles as well.

hell if he's a VT then his soft claim might give scum the opportunity to gamble on pretending to CC and hiding in plain sight.

If he's scum his partner might CC just to get in a good position at the cost of what was clearly a liability.

So yeah the soft claim is a serious issue.

[Sir Bastion]

Correct yourself 2b1s you are saying your vote is in 2 places atm.

[Sir Bastion]

THere have been a number of points of 2b1s teaching draken throughout the game. Most of it is somewhat innocent. The two suspect points come together and has been before pointed out as suspect. They both occur on the same post. And Bvoigt pulled him up on one point and now weirdbeard has pulled him on the other

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3508666

Aside from that the only interaction between the two that has 2b1s teaching really has been the discussion over statistical voting and on gambits

here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3494480

and

here:http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3502035

But he has voted on draken three times. Once here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3502035 which could be read as a clever scumprod for draken to get active after bvoigt made a post trying to draw attention to draken.

but thats a bit much.

His 2nd vote was a mistake

and he's currently on his 3rd following my case

In fact 2b1s aside from that rarely mentions Draken. He is the only player absent from his initial reads (though he mentions they are in the same timezone)

here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3478124

&

here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3480842


he does ask rbd if he thought TSG and draken were either opposites or both town here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3490508 & explaining the question here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3492453

and after his 2nd vote by mistake he says he feels the TSGR and Draken votes are going nowhere here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3504189



Personnally its a bit up and down. I can see possibilities but a number of things

1. I dont like to lynch someone based on possible scum team connections. Especially on day 1, I think its bad practice.

So from that I dont like that Beck's interest seems to be not on the merit if draken is scum or not but if it will lead to a possible 2b1s case.

2. The two have completely avoided each other in wagons. But with Draken's woefull voting pattern that can be said for everyone.

3. Other posters have similar posting trends with Draken, Johman has an example of suspect coaching and RBD has been strangely protective of draken. I'm not accusing any of these ponies of being scum, like I said I dont believe in scum by association cases but it does weaken the 2b1s case if a number of players have done unusual posts surronding him.

So no I dont think its a 2b1s/Draken scumteam atm. I think that will be a day 2 affair depending on how draken flips.

[Sir Bastion]

and my hate for you just grows.

[Sir Bastion]

I must admit regardless of the result I finally got this game moving again.

[Sir Bastion]

IMO, we've already given the scum the information that they'll find truly useful. If he's town, they know he's a power role, and can use that to decide thier NKs.

Right, so what is the scum motivation here (assuming I'm town)
They have a great target for a NK who is looking like he'll be lynched instead.
Sounds to me like it would be a great idea for them to prevent his lynch and lynch another townie so they can NK him.

I've been rereading this again and again and...

no?

what?

this is so bad I cannot understand how anyone can even think this could...

NO???


Draken how did you come to this?

*goes and cries a bit*


Ok

lets play a game

lets pretend you are town and I am scum.


and that you are indeed a PR.

Why in the name of all that is holy would I risk

not

getting you lynched?

Just to recap on the pros and cons

pro of lynching pr
-that person is dead
-cant be blocked
-all on the wagon become highly suspect, especially the hammer/l-1.

con of lynching pr
-scum on wagon run risk of being caught

pro of NK PR
-that person is dead
-everyone is suspect

con of NK PR
-can be blocked
-can be saved
-can be tracked

hmm.

So I'm happy because firstly Draken has voted for the first time in 9 days (YAY!) and secondly he's been aggressive.

I'm sad because his aggression is "I dont want to be lynched so I need to make it that those trying to kill me are bad. I cant accuse those wanting to lynch me because they will want me to explain things I cant and I already wasted my 'look at 2b1s card'. Oh crap oh crap oh crap they are pushing me to claim...DAMN Beck already used my counter attack! WAIT! THATS IT! I'LL TRY TO MAKE THOSE NOT WANTING ME TO CLAIM LOOK SCUMMY! DRAW ATTENTION AWAY FROM ME!!!*


cue the worse possible counter attack ever.

once more

They have a great target for a NK who is looking like he'll be lynched instead.
Sounds to me like it would be a great idea for them to prevent his lynch and lynch another townie so they can NK him.

Why in all the name of holy would scum prefer to Nightkill over a lynch?

This argument is clearly put together by someone under pressure who has not thought this through....AT ALL!

[Sir Bastion]

define spent?

As in you are admitting you've been cornered as scum?

Cause you are not denying anything in that post...

please make my day

[Sir Bastion]

that doesn't look right there should be waaay more votes on darken

[Sir Bastion]

we could into that in such a bad way...

[Sir Bastion]

One more vote and he has to claim after that it's up to him

[Sir Bastion]

You never denied it though and even tried to use it to start a case against Beck

[Sir Bastion]

Well I still think your scum. But RBD asked us to wait and also someone has to be willing to hammer.

Sooo (and perhaps Draken if you try and be a bit pro-active it could help) I'm going to move on, keeping my vote where it is but pushing on another suspicion.

Shinki!!!

why all the lurking man?

and yes its lurking its been almost 2 whole days since you posted here but you've been posting in other games. In fact you've made 9 posts in other games (2 of them in this very subforum!) http://mafiascum.net/forum/search.php?a ... 4&sr=posts yet despite all the drama here you've made no comment or had the decency to get back to us after teasing you would...and dont blame it on the game, I think things have been extremely active since you last posted, lots of drama some fair suspect posting and an L-1.

come out! come out! come out! We want to hear from you!

[Sir Bastion]

hmm

It would have been more likely for scum to claim a PR to save their hide. But I cannot overlook so much bad game play purely because of a gut read from a player who has had that gut read through out the game.

But I've laid out my case as much as I can on Draken himself and I do not have the energy to start cases on what is wrong with these town reads.

So instead I'm keeping my vote and I've established a standard. So if you believe 2b1s is scum then put it to me and convince me to move my vote. Otherwise when we reach day's end I think we have more to go on to lynch Draken then to lynch anyone else in this game at the moment (aside from policy lynches)

[Sir Bastion]

Have we even confirmed a vigi?

On day 1 they should never shoot so this is a discussion for day 2. Right now there is a wagon on 2b1s but no case. I question why RBD etc have returned to talking about vig when right now those who voted 2b1s should be presenting a case.

[Sir Bastion]

Posting from phone

I thought 2b1s was a bit scummy mostly around his actions during the johman/Palmer crisis. But it's getting a bit lost among a series of other scum events around here. I wouldn't call him a standout suspect I can argue there is as much of a case to argue most players in this game are scum as 2b1s.

If I was to take a page from my gut cause everyone else is...I do think drakan is still scum. He has been consistently timid and apologetic in his defense which to me feels like posting with intent rather then someone reacting to a case piece by piece. I urge anyone to reread his responses to his case and consider that.

[Sir Bastion]

Again no one has really put a tsg or 2birds case together a lot of what is pushing both are events pre drakan trial which was quite a few pages a go. Yes we have rbd is unsatisfied with answers from tsg but where are the questions for 2b?

I'm ok witha gut read when you you supporting a push. But never when you start a wagon or bring someone to l-1. They are not enough at either points and it's a pass for scum to hammer and blame it on their gut

[Sir Bastion]

mod there was a question by beck on the previous page for you that he mis tagged. I'd quote it but I'm still phone bound

Thank you.

Thomith.

[Sir Bastion]

Why was the drakan vote on wb a Self defence vote? Looking back at it prior to voting wb drsken had no wagon beyond tsg and he wasn't under any major scrutiny?

[Sir Bastion]

blah!

both my other two games finished today so i'm stuck waiting on you guys...

[Sir Bastion]

in a small defence of 2b1s any meta (which there isnt a lot of) shows that he has been more pro-active in this game then in his prior mini game where he was a vanilla townie (saying that though he only got 11 posts in that before being NK'd) Sadly I dont have anymore to go on and meta is only half the case.

[Sir Bastion]

hmm RBD had a quick read and will prob slip back to look at the posts in question.

[Sir Bastion]

Tease...

[Sir Bastion]

Nope. Recheck it there was no Wagon on him until he voted

[Sir Bastion]

I hate being the most active poster. I get so fidgety waiting for you people... Stop teasing me!!!

[Sir Bastion]

Ok just because no one else is posting.

proof Draken's first vote was not self defense:

Draken voted WB in post 166 http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3482526

the last vc before that was 150 http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3481571

which had only TGS voting draken

who had him as his backup default vote since his reads post on 118 http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3480761

who he unvoted on 128 http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3481116

and revoted on 132 http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3481148


considering there was

no response

by anyone else to draken's vote and TSG actually attracted more attention on himself shifting back and forth to palmer then to call it a defensive vote is highly questionable.

It was an oppurtunist vote and highly scummy one too.

[Sir Bastion]

EDIT: thats meant to be no response to TSG's vote of Draken. Not draken's own vote.

[Sir Bastion]

And I still hope for a Draken lynch.

When it comes to the last day we are gonna have to compromise.

Or possibly sooner depending on how often people are posting...

[Sir Bastion]

Sir Bastion is obvious town

My life expectencies is obviously a lot shorter now too.

[Sir Bastion]

its good to have you back shinki...

[Sir Bastion]

Draken is my first choice

I actually have a hard choice for 2nd and 3rd.

I guess there is a small bit of a case on 2b1s that I agree with (I did vote him on that part of the case ages ago) but the rest of the case is honestly useless in my opinion.

So:

Draken
2b1s
...I have no idea?

my next big suspect is RBD for the same reasons Weird outlined above but I've been holding it close to me to see how far RBD would go to defend Draken.

[Sir Bastion]

So despite all That has occurred from the Draken case your gut doesn't even have the slightest bit of doubt?

Also the notion of Draken being the most informative lynch while not my main reason to vote him is still a damn good reason. How he flips will reflect on so many players. While the 2bird result will what? It's not that anyone has defended or even interacted with him beyond musing he is scummy...

[Sir Bastion]

btw Rainbow dash.

latest episode of MLP. Greatest ever??

[Sir Bastion]

it does say that either

a) he never read the thread in the first place

or

b) he is genuinely taking in info and deciding one step at a time. Which makes me lean town with him.

[Sir Bastion]

mod: there'll be a qt for dead chat right?

Yes I am somewhat twiddling my thumbs waiting for things to kick off again...

There will be a dead quicktopic.

[Sir Bastion]

Johman are those reads from racer or joh?

[Sir Bastion]

...

actually

we

have

to lynch Draken now.

I'm sorry but the credibility of Rainbowdash now completely relies on it.

You just did a

CHAINSAW DEFENCE

for Draken. Ok you have gone above and beyond the call for defending a fellow player without rock hard confirmation (and no gut does not count)

either you claim extenuating circumstances or you explain why you would defend Draken by attacking his attacker?

Let me make this clear RBD.

You are without a doubt for the first 20 or so pages of this game been the most pro-active obviously town player in the game in the eys of everyone here. After you I'd say with some modesty that I am probably the most pro-town player. When the two of us are in such stark disagreement over this issue then it needs to come down to something more then just gut.

There was an entire case laid out against draken. 7 key issues!

May I remind you beyond one post (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3511190) which I quickly countered (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3511855) Draken has been incapable of defending himself.

So much so that you have taken his place in his defence.

Since he has claimed Drken has lurked away coming in with the odd sheeping post here and there and again refusing to vote. Regardless of a call for information lynch or not. Draken's role in this game is a done deal he is a testament to whether you are genuinely the leader of pro-town alliance or if you have been misleading us.

Draken is a dead weight regardless of his claim. He doesnt contribute, he doesnt vote and he casts doubt on the roles of the

FOUR MOST ACTIVE

players in this game.

Not least of which is you and me.


Unless the man steps up in the next 3 days he is the best candidate for a lynch.

2b1s flipping tells us what? As town, it makes you a small bit suspect and those on his wagon will be scrutinized. But seeing as the 2b1s lynch rally has been around forever and pointing out the actual ringleaders is a game of when and where (one point you were leading, one point beck was etc etc). As scum it says nothing about his partners. Sure you can point to me or WB but we had a genuinely long ass case against Draken. Both of us have addressed the 2b1s case and pointed out our misgivings about it. We have been open and active. Hell at one point I led the vote against 2b1s with Beck. There is little solid ground.

TSGR flipping tells us sweet f*ck all as does weird. Both have been wagons led by you but you've only ever got WB to L-1 once in the early game. They flip town it damages your cred, they flip scum you are again stuck looking for a partner.

THE DRAKEN WAGON HAS HAD EVERYBODY CHIME IN AT SOME POINT. WE HAVE A SELECTION OF PLAYERS WHO NEVER VOTED DESPITE AGREEING IT WAS A STRONG CASE AND IT NOT ONLY GOT TO L-1 BUT HE CLAIMED TOO. regardless of how he flips it is going to put a lot of people on the spot. As Scum, you and Shinji both become high suspect, as town weirdbeard, 2b1s and me become suspect.

It is without a doubt the single best lynch we can do

RIGHT NOW

and the more you defend Draken the way you just did the more you destroy all the good will you built and your earlier posts (as they are already becoming) will be put under heavy scrutiny.

[Sir Bastion]

Im standing my ground here and will fight you hoof and nail to stop this lynch from going through.

Well then.

tell me firstly, since the man wont speak for himself. Give me a reasonable town reason for Draken to lurk back into the shadows after his wagon fell apart? And for once again not be voting any such way. You know its 2 wagons with 3 a piece. You could really use him.

[Sir Bastion]

ok good to confirm. I look forward to your case.

[Sir Bastion]

what is the case against TSG anyway?

[Sir Bastion]

The deadline is tomorrow so those not voting need to act ASAP

[Sir Bastion]

Beck why are you holding back your vote? Are you that worried of a quicklynch on a wagon your on?

[Sir Bastion]

Last I checked the case he avoided your questions about 12 pages a go and was able to lurk away and has been ever since.

[Sir Bastion]

I never said they no longer apply. I'd almost say the fault is your own for not keeping the pressure up if anything. I am agreeing you have a case. I just disagree that it's the strongest case here. And I disagree more with a demand to claim at L4. I know there was a push for Draken to claim early. But that was because the issue of him being a possible or became such a crucial piece of the discussion. Besides he still didn't claim til L1. So I'm feeling you are jumping the gun a bit.

@beck: no but pretty much 75% of the current votes are gut votes so surprised at the caution.

[Sir Bastion]

I'll write a big ass post about it when I get to my computer.

But for now meet the line:

_____________________

[Sir Bastion]

EDIT:Beck might have made this pointless but I'll say it anyway

I want a fair lynch that is agreed on the actions of the suspect and not on *gut* alone. While some may disagree with me, may I suggest the following as a policy for the day of the 21st.

Rainbowdash
Sir bastion
Scumhunter
beck
Bvoigt
Palmer
Johman
Shinki
Edgerobin
Weirdbeard

_________________________________________

Draken
2birds1stone
TSGraise

That is the line.

Those above the line with such little time left are part of the "not in risk of being lynched" alliance. A temporary end of day one alliance that is made up of players that neither have the wagon or the case against them to warrant them supect enough for a lynch.

Those below the line are on the firing line and

one of them will be lynched

. So must now play

SELF PRESERVATION

So some quick pointers:

There is obviously scum in the alliance, but judging how this game has gone i am also feeling pretty safe that one of the three below the line is scum aswell. There is no way we can push on 3 players this much and not be having someone blocking.

So I ask the following for the day of the 21/10/2011 could all players above the line refrain from the following:

defending someone under the line

leading someone under the line

refrain from any indepth comments except a rebuttle of the defendents arguments.

I want those under the line to defend themselves. Hence the name

SELF

preservation.

So what must they do.

So between now and the 22nd. The defendents must defend themselves against the case against them. I will be linking in individual posts the entire case against each player (and what they have said so far) in th following posts.

If a poster fails to respond at all between now and the deadline I insist they should be who we lynch. As of right now none of them have claimed V/LA from what I can see. So claiming it after the case is scummy.

They must to the best of their ability defend their case, explain their actions and if they wish present a case against someone else. But priority is to defending yourself. The more extensive you are the better.

By the 22nd we should have 3 posts outlining the cases against each suspect (which i am doing right now) and3 posts defending and we should from there be able to decide who is the best suspect to lynch.

We can discuss this as in those in favour or against it etc etc now but I believe come the next vote count we should enforce self preservation and put the pressure on the suspects to defend themselves and not on each other.

Ok I'll be posting the three cases now, starting with TSGraise.

[Sir Bastion]

The case against TSGraise

1A.Opted out of the RVS: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3475725

1B.Beck feels his attack on protector is scumlike: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3476096

1C.TSG rebuttal: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3476120

1D FOS by johman http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3481482


2A: Sheeping Palmer's weak case: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3476657

rebuttal: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3478062

2B: Bvoigt weighs in on his flipflopping: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3479686

no rebuttal

case lifted here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3482368

3. rainbow brings case back to TSG here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3485817

His reasons listed much later here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3490481

4. beck joins wagon with: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3493181

5. RB drops TSG case: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3497188

6. Beck drops TSG case: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3498042

7. 2nd read thread from TSG http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3498510

7B RB returns to case TSG due to not answering questions: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3499988

rebuttal: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3500296

counter by RB: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3500978

8. Johman joins TSG wagon: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3501222

promises content from racerman

9. Shinki joins TSG wagon: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3503156

10. Scumhunter joins TSG wagon: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3503785

11. RBD ends TSG wagon for 2b1s: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3509885

-The wagon dies for the Draken push for a number of pages posters mention they wouldnt be against a TSG wagon but no one presents a case

12 The wagon restarts here by RBD: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3525202

13 Shinki joins http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3525314

14 beck joins http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3529321


Welcome to today:

The case against TSG is the oldest surviving wagon which is mostly built on his actions in the early game and lack of activity in the late game.

His technicals are as follows: he has posted 52 times he has posted at least once most days except a brief period between the 2nd october and 5th of october. He is the 6th most active player in the game.

and again on the 16th.

he has given two reads

and has voted numerous times on numerous wagons.

This is the main case against TSGraise. You may defend yourself against these claims as you wish. You have been handed every vote against you.

[Sir Bastion]

The Case against Draken

1. RB doesnt like he has any opinion: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3477961

No rebuttal (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3478052) case withdrawn without comment as focus shifted to WB

2.TSG names Draken most suspect in his reads: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3480761

case momentarily lifted due to suspicion of Palmer but reinstated here http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3481148

no rebuttal

3. Lots of posters take offence of Draken's L-1 vote: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3483066

3B: unvote of WB here http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3488182

3C: Bvoigt joins Draken wagon based on his unvote: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3489951

No rebuttal

4.Reads list here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3493407

5.SB joins Draken wagon: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3502689

5b.SB defends against Shinki (not Draken) here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3503385

6.2bird joins Draken wagon: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3503820

6b.draken defence: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3503835

7.New case elements from SB: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3506659

7b.defence: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3507956 & http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3508235

8.Main case against Draken: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3510709

9.WB joins: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3510766

10.2bird joins again: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3511131

10b.defence: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3511190

10c.counter: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3511855

11.possible coaching: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3512845

12.defence: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3512950

12b.counter: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3513154

13.claim: After TSG puts him at L-1: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3515412

Wagon against Draken dies



Ok obviously my view on the draken case is bias, so I will just give the same info as I did for TGS.

The draken case is the 2nd oldest surviving wagon in the game. It was born from his L-1 vote on Weirdbeard and it was pushed further midgame by Sir Bastion's extensive metagame breakdown. It dies after he claimed Vanilla Townie

his technicals are as follows: he has posted 41 times making him joint 7th with 2birds1stone for activity. he posted daily til the 5th and ceased til the 10th and reassumed til the 15th when he also missed the 16 and has posted 17th-19th.

He has given one read

and has voted twice. Once on Weirdbeard putting him at L-1 and once very briefly on Beck

This is the main case against Draken you may defend against this as you wish you have been handed every vote and case against you.

[Sir Bastion]

I'll do the 2bird case later tonight when I have time. I just used my entire dinner slot trawling the thread and am hungry!

[Sir Bastion]

Back on phone at work.



Interesting...

[Sir Bastion]

Tsg is at

l-1

guess that's that...

[Sir Bastion]

I'm Blue, I would rolefish now, I guess, maybe.

Why do you keep claiming "Blue"?

Not feeling an unvote, but I would like another little bit to gather my thoughts.

He's at l-1 if you want time to think invote until you are satisfied and hell you may even be the one to hammer.

Don't let scum quickhammer him til we are all satisfied

[Sir Bastion]

I'm at the midnight launch of Arkham so I'll have the 2nirds case up in about 2 hours there abouts

[Sir Bastion]

???

I'm the only one who almost thought 2b1s was admitting he was also Palmer in his 2nd post almost blew my top. I'm 30 minutes from my house another 20 or so to trawl all of 2bitds links and away we go!

[Sir Bastion]

Right 2bird case

1. Palmer starts a vote on 2bird with accusing him of acting on guilt by association: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3481105

2. Weirdbeard joins the wagon: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3481201

3. Beck tags on with a question case here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3481141 and a vote here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3481951 explains more here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3483082

4. Edgerobin gives catch up post and joins the wagon: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3483322

5. 2bird defends with a catch up post: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3485050

6. Bastion joins the 2bird case over his response to the johman/palmer meltdown http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3490950

7.Beck joins too http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3491043

8. small defence: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3490830

9. more defence: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3494480

10. last defence comment: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3494731

11. Bastion counters: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3500948

12. 2bird defence: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3502035

13.and more: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3502035

14. 2bird will seed the draken is pr role idea in this post: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3508666

15. RB joins the 2bird wagon http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3509885

16. 2b joins the draken wagon http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3511131

17. accused of possible coaching of draken: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3512845

18. draken wagon dies RB pushes for 2b lynch: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3515591

19. Bvoigt joins 2b wagon: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3515797

20. beck joins http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3515865

21. 2birds defence: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3517190

22. more defence: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3517319

23. shinkis gives partial ISO read on 2b: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3518871

24. 2bird gives his top 3 scum read: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3519805

25.beck votes him by misreading: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3530222

and quickly unvotes which brings us to today.

Yeah its not as detailed as the others (want to play Batman)

but the case against 2birds is a long slow burner. It was its hottest when he commented on the palmer/johman fight and made an opportunistic statement and again during the final moments of the Draken case when he was again opportunist voting. So really the case on him is that he lurks alot and he is an opportunist.

His technical: 43 posts making him 7th most active player (1 above Draken who is now 8th) and his activity range is the spottiest. He'd post once or twice on the 30th, miss the 1st post once on the 2nd miss the 3rd and post again on the 4th. It is consistently spotty with one out of three days missing on average.

he's given no formal reads post: But gave a partial here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3480842 and here http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3485050

mostly he's done partial catch up posts.

He has voted numerous times, against Palmer, Edgerobin and Draken being the most prominant.

This is the main case against 2birds1stone . You may defend yourself against these claims as you wish. You have been handed every vote against you.

[Sir Bastion]

I have to ask why it is only Weirdbeard and me getting rubbed up wrong from posts like the above?

[Sir Bastion]

I will say this. Day 1 is unique in that it is the only day no town can claim 100% confirmation of anyone (regardless of what a certain pony repeats endlessly) and every lynch regardless of who it was will be an infromation lynch first. So being Obv town is not the best reason not to lynch, all three of our main suspects claim being obv town, but I put forward the question which of them is most

pro town

who has actively scumhunted, who has taken part in case discussion who even if they were scum will have post after post of content to build a case on them? At the moment I'd argue 2birds is the strongest of the three for being pro-town and Draken the weakest with TSG bouncing around inconsistently in between.

People talked much earlier in the game about not doing utility lynches or lynching lurkers or any of the hard stuff until we have to. Well now we have to, its the deadline and there are no cases that can carry anyone to lynch.

So I ask you all to consider one last time over these last 13 hours. What is the best course of action for day 2 for you? I rather not come in here everytime and find that Rainbowdash has again dictated the game's policy something she has done a fair few times now. So rather then waiting for her post and saying 'Same' I want to hear actual opinion from players apart from Beck and TSG.

besides all that I can hammer I am in roughly the same timezone as the mod and I can post from my phone at any point.

I'll hammer whoever is at L-1 (unless its Draken cause then I cant hammer as I am already on that wagon) But I'll only do it when I absolutely must (

3pm tomorrow 2 hours before the deadline

) So TGS, 2bird and Draken you have til then, unless someone wants to hammer now.

[Sir Bastion]

You cant claim pro town either since you never scum hunter. rarely vote and spent most of the game lurking.

[Sir Bastion]

Again, like earlier... Interesting.

but why you opt for an almost full out reveal bemuses me.

More so the strange value you've attached to draken's life. I'd almost say its trolling if its gotten to the stage that you are claiming on day 1. Either that or you really really want to be the centre of attention. A man cant make enquires on the other players here without you butting in and bringing things back to you...

But if its true and you do survive night 1, it means either we are both wrong or you are wrong, most likely that we are both wrong. Please consider that.

@Weird I'm hammering whoever is at the top spot come 3pm tomorrow. Regardless if its 2birds or TSGR, like scumhunter says NL is worse then lynching town. I just rather between now and then that the aussies and yanks on here would consider what sort of players they want with them on day 2.

RB I know you'd be asleep but I'd really welcome if you keep the maths in your head when that time comes around, cause you might see something.

That is of course if its all true...

[Sir Bastion]

see if I explain then your *possible* sacrifice will be for nothing.

My problem with your logic is on a very basic level.

Mafia is not a single player game, so yes I disagree with you on a very basic level that you should be attempting to enforce a specific direction beyond the guidelines of your role allignment. Not to say one cant be creative, but you seemed to have pushed for a my way or the highway process on so much of this day. Obviously Draken has been the most strikingly obvious case of this, but the town alliances, and imense influence you've pushed on all the wagons also.

Also the matter of value. This is in the end a game, not reality, so the value of a player is based on their input to the game and not so much on their role. We can have a town cop and a vanilla townie and despite the town cop being a much more powerful role, the vanilla townie can be the much more valuable player because they can put in the effort much more then a cop who lurks by waiting to take his go at investigating someone.

So as a matter of value, your sacrifice may very well end up costing us too much based on what has been observed day 1.

Of course all of this is still dependent on you telling the truth.

[Sir Bastion]

Right...first things first. Smart mafia is smart. Leaving both me and rainbow alive means the Draken debate will persist. So Draken gets a reprive from me badgering him. On the condition that gets his act together. If he continues scummy behavior then RB I don't give 2 f*VHS about your gut I will push shove kick and bite until he is lynched.

That aside important points

-2birds why did you quickhammer? In Case you missed it we'd cleared that I was going to hammer just before the deadline and there was growing doubt in tsg being scum. Yet you hammered because you said we were at risk of a NL. But we were not I was standing by and there was still issues being discussed. Clearly you are not following this thread!

-but it does feel like a smart mafia as killing edgerobin further paints you scummy as you were the only poster crossing blades with him couple that with you quickhammering and it looks like either really really dumb mafia or one trying to get us to lynch you.


So your answer to point 1 will explain which it is for point 2.


GO!

(btw I'm happy to be alive)

[Sir Bastion]

@WB the key is the or he outed himself as.

[Sir Bastion]

Think like scum when that pr comes it should be fairly straight forward why RB is still alive if she's town.

[Sir Bastion]

@SirB, why do you say 2birds "quick hammered". It was 33 pages in and what less than a day to deadline?? I don't see that as a quickhammer whatsoever, plus what difference does it make if you are the one hammering or he is? I find that whole accusation pretty odd to be honest and defenitely could be scumbuddies distancing. Not saying it is, just it seemed odd to me.

Quickhammer was probably the wrong word and I was typing on a phone so couldnt do a quote example like this:

me #802

I'll hammer whoever is at L-1 (unless its Draken cause then I cant hammer as I am already on that wagon) But I'll only do it when I absolutely must (

3pm tomorrow 2 hours before the deadline

) So TGS, 2bird and Draken you have til then, unless someone wants to hammer now.

Ok thats a statement of policy lynching. That regardless if I think the person is scum or not I will hammer whoever needs hammering.

Then RB reveals he's a power role and the discussion goes in to overdrive.

and 10 posts later

I'm really sorry about this TSGRaaize, but a VT lynch is preferable to no lynch. No hard feelings I hope.

Vote: TSGRaaize

2birds lynches TSG under the same justification that I already said in bold 10 posts prior.

It bugs me that he uses policy lynch as his reason.

he might have disagreed with me but a policy lynch is something of a discussion point. One would expect a warning prior to lynching. At least to the lynchee as you dont think they are scum so you might want them to say something or push something before going to the gallows. Hence I used the term quickhammer.

I'd like answer to my question. Why no warning? Why then? We had a timer that tells us exactly how much time is left, there was no risk of it running out or one of us not being here before it ended.

Depending on that answer I will make my next call.

[Sir Bastion]

We get it but it feels too obvious so I'd like to see a defence first.

[Sir Bastion]

sorry guys i'll be somewhat VLA til the weekend due to work commitments.

[Sir Bastion]

*yawn*

catching up hopefully will post before the day is out.

[Sir Bastion]

Ok...when I said day I meant weekend, really I did


So quick read of the last 3 pages.

Oh f*ck you guys this is becoming a confusing mess.

As far as I can see, we have a case on 2b1s a case on former shink/now Deltawave and a whole lot of lurking, myself included for once.

So firstly on the two cases

the 2b1s case is really messy, there are times when he screams scum and there are times he screams town, what I will conclude though should be what we observed from day 1. As a town we suck in holding it together and pushing a case through, we lynched at the eleventh hour with pretty much everyone sure the victim was actually town, worse it was a lynch that has brought us little to no info except for one tidbit I will get to in a second. His actions day 2 have been inconsistent and he has made some wtf comments (me reveal first in massclaim?)

Personnally though his vote on RBD says

a lot

towards him being town imo. If he's scum he would want to lynch someone who he knows is town and could easily convince a lynch.

So either both 2b1s and deltawave are his scum partners and he cant slip on to their wagons which is unlikely and it is even more unlikely to pick a player as high profile as RBD to releave pressure off them. Honestly if I was in his shoes I'd jump on any wagon but that one, hell right now I'd be a better choice then RBD to convince people of possible scum due to my inactivity.

So yeah I dont think he's scum, I think he's an idiot but right now that makes up most of this town.

To comment on his RBD is scum theory of his though. If anything if they were scum I'd say Draken would be a scum power role over vanilla and thats why RBD if she was scum is so feverent to protect him, its more important he survives over her for the scum team. That was my thinking when this was all at full pelt. Right now though I rather push other directions as there are waay too many if's in that theory.

The Deltawave wagon is more promising purely because Shinki has irked me a lot on day 1 with the sheeping and the huge reluctunce to push or fight any issue without being under RBD's shadow. Honestly her actions day 2 make it worse with her voting patterns feeling very much being pushed by other players opinion of them (such as here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3544986 ).

Still not a lot of weight beyond Bvoigt being comprehensive on tracking them. But right now I'd rather watch deltawaves initially actions then push a wagon on them.

especially when I look at this:

So day 1 had a lot of people voting on a wagon that we were 90% sure was town. But I'd like to know something

Johman, scumhunter. You guys camped the tsgraize wagon for pretty much over half of day 1

Johman you voted here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3501222

and a look at the ISO of Thomith: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=15112

from vote count 1.15 to the very end you never left that vote.

thats 11 days on a wagon. A wagon I might add you never joined before that day. RBD pushed TSG a few times during day 1 and you never joined. Then you join here and you stick and never leave.

Your reason? Racerman had something? Something that has never been produced not on day 1 or now.

And while you may claim his V/LA got in the way I call BS! he has posted between now and then and if you were genuinely pushing a wagon you would have put a case forward. You never did. I call

SUSPECT!

and I want answers.


AND SCUMHUNTER. I see the exact same thing, but even more 2D.

You join 1.16 and sit there snug as a bug for 10 days (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3504408)

your reasoning?> http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3503785

trust the pony?

Thats a lot of trust despite not joining her other TSG wagon attempts?

I call

SUSPECT

and want answers!

And the icing on the cake.

Its day 2 and look at the lurkers not voting

There's the forever useless and pathetic Draken forever to drive me to drink!

There's me who has been V/LA

and then there's you two. Haven't found a wagon that no one will ask questions? Oh dear. I mean sure you are posting but a townies weapon is his vote yet you guys wont use it.

Well here's one you are welcome to

Vote: Johman

[Sir Bastion]

EDIT: Hah, I just saw Johman has voted (yes this post has been on my notepad for the whole weekend) so that's a step, but its the easiest wagon for him to sit on, so I still have

FOS: Johman

but scumhunter you're post is rather suspect

I want to contribute, but I don't really have much to say except, I have no f'n clue. I need to draw scum more often or something, my town game has been meh lately

Durr guys! I'm really town! See if I was scum I'd be soooo much better!!!!

yeah no, get off your arse

UNVOTE

VOTE: SCUMHUNTER!

[Sir Bastion]

Lolno Bastion. Here's the thing. I'm only ever using my gut and I make at most one case a game or so, if I really need to convince someone. The problem with me making a case is that I will have to think like scum, something I don't wanna do, because I basically need to invent reasons which I'm not using myself. Racerman can post his cases if he can, he's a pro player. But I'm that gut-using guy who everyone hates.

And WB, I thought everyone except Bastion and

possibly

bvoigt was viable votes?

~J

PS Nice buddying there WB, you're still scum I see.

So your gut never shifted at all in the later half of day 1, despite no deliverance of the promised info from racerman?

Really?

See that's odd. I mean I can understand standing by a gut read. It infuriates me, hence I grind my teeth at almost every post RBD did on day 1 and my games prior to this I dealt with posters who claimed everything under the son as a gut read and I really hate it, but I understand it.

but here's the thing every player I have come across that has played the gut read card to me and have flipped town...they change their votes like mad bastards. Your gut shifts with the game and as such a gut read should not be a permanent anchor over a single player. Your gut should have shifted a few times during day 1, and considering your vote came relatively early in a slew of events that really show up a lot of this game's playerbase are you telling me your gut remained unchanged during the draken trials, where as you pointed out WB has buddied up to me and Shinki buddied up to RBD, not a shift. That all the info your gut needed about who was scum on day 1 occured 15 pages into the game on your 50 post?

See I was very much in favour of you prior to this because you did indeed shift your vote around a lot like someone on gut would, though your random anger tantrum confused the hell out of me.

but looking through day 1. 50 posts in and you sit down on a single player and never budge...thats really suspect.

I can understand why from a scum perspective you would stay away from the draken case, the two most town players fighting each other, if you'd taken a side and hammered, RBD would have been down on you like a tonne of bricks and that would be way too much attention.

But from a town perspective I've just noticed, you completely avoided that whole debate. in fact the only post on the issue from you was this: (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3524139)

again, big debate on the thread. Hell even scumhunter chirped in on that one.

But you kept silent, sure a VLA here and there and an absent partner are wonderful excuses.


So questions, cause questions lead to answers:

1. why did your gut settle on TSGR 50 posts in, before hand you flipped and flopped between a number of posters...but your 50th post settled on tsgr, what was it about him that cemented him for the rest of day 1?

2. Your input on the events of day 1 were minimal at best non existent at worse, I dont think its breaking any rules if you reveal what theories you and your partner had discussed in QT, was there any thoughts on any of the wagons at the time, you may not have openly acted in the game on the events, but I assume there were was some talk in your camp or your head about the draken trials, the 2b1s push, the rainbowdash alliance etc. Show me thought process.

[Sir Bastion]

on a side note...

I really should have ISo'd and metagamed scumhunter a lot earlier...

[Sir Bastion]

Ok few things

I think scumhunter is more scum like then Johman atm and I will go into that in a moment.

But firstly

This is a lie. I contributed much D1 (much more than I usually do) and this is an outright lie.

Btw, read above, we haven't spoke in our QT for a while.

listen carefully

I DO NOT LIE

I said your input on the events of day 1 were minimal. I already made baltantly clear that up to post #50 you are very townlike and active. But after #50 your activity takes a nosedive into nothing

you made 74 posts in total on day 1

post #50 came on page 15, day 1 was 33 pages long

you made over half of your posts in the first half of the day. Of those first 50 you followed the WB case, you were pro active until #22 when you threw a wobbler and then again on #32.

That means of your posts of day 74 in total, 24 were when you sat on a TSG vote doing nothing, 28 of them were you having a anger fit leaving 22 posts in a 33 page long day that actually involve pro active scum hunting.

If we divide the day up into its most important phases were pretty much the whole town should have been involved we see the following: early game, You're Palmer Drama, The Rainbow Alliance, the Draken Trials, The Line Trials, and The Deadline.

You were active Early Game

You were part of the Palmer Drama

You made no comment on the Rainbow Alliance

Your total contribution to the Draken trials was a post and a half:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3524139

&

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3501399


both can be summed up with you saying *I dont know*

Of those 24 post TSG vote posts

the majority of them is you excusing yourself for being absent or for not delivering a case on tsg (you again cite racerman as the one you are waiting for), there's 1 or 2 bitching about palmer and mostly fluff and nothing substantial


Though I do see one unusual contradiction

You spend most of the game waiting for Racerman to provide a case he had formed on TSG. Citing twice that it's the reason for your TSG vote (first when you voted TSG and again here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3523982 )

Then after waiting almost the entire day for this case, Racerman posts this on page 28

Did I REALLY not announce my V/LA (Which started Thursday, ended today)? Damn, sorry guys.

A few reads (in no particular order):

Rainbowdash: Town. She is helping town a lot imo, a good leader, keeping everyone straight.
Palmar: Scumscumscum. No content, not trying at all, throwing his vote just because someone told him to. No way this is coming from town.
SB: Town, good posts, very active.
Beck: Null-town, he seems to be the type of player easy to forget, which is throwing off my read a bit, but he seems town for me.
Bvoigt: Null, pretty average playing imo.

TSGRaaize: Null, I've liked his posts for the last 10 pages or so.

More coming once I see who else is in the game.

WHY THE F*CK DID YOU KEEP YOUR VOTE ON HIM!

And why are you claiming now that you were still waiting for a case from him when 5 pages before the deadline he

cleared

TGS!

Obviously not everyone have the same gut.

A part of me keeping the vote on SGR was that I expected content from Racerman

, but tbh it was mainly because my gut read on him never changed. He had all the traits of lazy scum.[/qupte]

Racerman changed his position and yet the vote remained.


very confusing.

[Sir Bastion]

yeah sorry for my failure to deliver promises. I'm in two games parallel to this and they are both waaaay ahead of this one in action (i.e past day 2). That coupled with me being a battlefield addict and they just released the newest one means I've been scatterbrained in following up my earlier commitments.

To answer you Bvoigt yes I did start ISO and metagaming scumhunter, when I posted that post I meant he had a tonne of content to dig through being a much more active gamer then Draken and not a hydra like Johman (which is much harder to meta) hence I should have done someone like scumhunter sooner as there is much more stuff to compare and contrast.

His lack of activity should not be considered a scumteel. It seems to be a recent development but he is less active in this and another game (which I am also in ) but I think thats all tied to a third active game which appears to be affecting him in the same manner as I am being affected by my other games. Prior to this his activity in finished game on town vs scum is quite hard to read because for the vast majority of his games he has played town. So far I've only found one where he replaced in as scum and while content wise there is a slight posting shift in sheer numbers there isnt.

-Now I can be wrong and he's scum in both games atm and his lack of activity is a tell but as I said in his prior scum game he was the 4th most active player after replacing in midgame (combine his posts with his replacee and he is the most active player by a bit) I am still hunting for more games of him as scum.


I was building a case of issues I had with his posting this game, mostly around how unhelpful it was and how it was a bit different to his other town games where he was much more helpful and that there was a weird contradiction in his gamestyle here and his claim on this game: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3357896

he claims this:

I failed at my #1 job as a townie, proving my towniness to other townies.

I know some people will say scumhunting and finding scum is way more important, but I've always disagreed with that.

So for that, I failed you and I'm sorry.

that set off alarm bells because when you look at his game here it has been completely focused on pushing for a lynch on TSGR on day 1.

coupled that with constant *obv town* slips like the one I pointed out earlier and this on the start of day 2: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3540040

Ehhhhh, Wellp. Fuck.

screams very similar to his only other scum game where he spent a good chunk of it reconfirming once he replaced in that he was *blatantly town* by meta (replacing into a slot MUST BE TOWN!) http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=15473



But thats all been thrown into doubt now because of this post:

Palmar if you are town and you are fakeclaiming cop, then admit to it or you may very well lose this game for us.
But if you are scum and fakeclaiming cop, then feel free to continue because you will certainly die if Joh flips town.

-This is very much in line with Scumhunter as town, the very same post where I got his line that he doesnt focus purely on scumhunting is from a game where he fakeclaimed cop.

If he was scum I'd expect him to push a lynch all liars policy on palmer on the spot or call for vigi exec like some poeple have said here.

He didnt though.

On the flipside you could argue its a plamer/scumhunter scum team and this is distancing (rather then jumping onto palmer's case he is distant about it and is giving both a possible escape depending where this goes.)




Regardless I am in doubt and the palmer claim makes it...*interesting* and I'll watch it a bit more before making a call. We have time.

meanwhile

-Beck your fly is down!

-rainbow its weird when we are not fighting each other

-Deltawave your case on WB was as weak as p*ss and you join my suspect list.

-bvoigt sorry for the late response

-Draken I hate you with the fury of a thousands suns, I hope one day we will play again and I can lynch your ass as scum.

[Sir Bastion]

@Basty, I hope I can play a game against you where I'm not being entirely hopeless too.
Also, since we both know meta has the potential to be misleading, do you have anything not meta related as well against Scumhunter, or is it all meta related?

Aside from the obvious?

-He voted TSG and never gave a case or reason, he hasnt voted this round, he has not scumhunt all game and he is overplaying the *dang it I'm so town that I got to respond emotionally to every upset* card which almost never happens unless you are in a scenario like I could have been in if we lynched you and you flipped town.

If scumhunter had scumhunted and pushed aggressively that TGS was scum and put forward an actual case rather coaxing along and riding RB to push harder on the TGS wagon*. I might find his *Oops* post believable, right now it reads fake, real townies would have taken the hit and started day 2 swinging with a case in my mind (like myself, bvoigt WB etc who were on 2birds1stone back straight away.) and he's done numerous posts like that throughout the game which reek of falseness.

*Real scumhunting would have push TGS while scum faking it would guilt others into voting their way and push others...which Scumhunter did on RB at one point.

My fly is down?

Yes depending on how certain people flip you may have embarrassed yourself.

[Sir Bastion]

Saw a comment about Johman being an odd investigative target - not sure I agree with that. Most people had him down as town-leaning/null-ish on day one. If I were the cop, he's who I'd have looked at, personally.

problem is to Palmer Johman would have been a scum suspect ever since...

the outburst

so it muddles any idea of him being a cop or not and if this is genuine or someone with a serious grudge to bare.

Also I've been told off about this recently, if a cop found scum on the 1st night they would have claimed straight away.

Why did he wait until we are almost half way through day 2? I'd hate to call foul on the same grounds that I was almost mislynched elsewhere over, but I rather not take the chance of this game being further led by the interests of one over the many.

It doesnt reek of scum but it reeks of a lynch with ulterior motives.

[Sir Bastion]

I think perhaps with how this game is going we may need to do a hypocop session today.

[Sir Bastion]

I rather not for now please if you don't mind.

[Sir Bastion]

btw Beck, you seem to be highly suspect of Bvoigt. is there a case behind that or just he rubs you the wrong way?

[Sir Bastion]

Mostly gut, until recently I forgot he was playing, those types of players scare me.

I have seen at least twice where mafia has won and I couldn't remember much about their postings. But it could be just his play style cause earlier rainbow said she forgot he was in another game that we were all in.

surprised at that. I've found while he does post alot when he does he tends to make good points.

I hope we are not giving people scum factors based purely on their postcount now...


To hammer or not to hammer...

I rather wait til I hear palmer's response to some issues raised about his cop claim and johman's response to being a L-1

in other words

BITCH CLAIM!

[Sir Bastion]

We have time so let's be rational.

[Sir Bastion]

Palmar - time to be real now, are you really the cop or are you fakeclaiming because nobody will listen to you?

conceding this, I'm vanilla town.

I still think we should lynch johman, nothing else makes sense.

You are such a weenie

[Sir Bastion]

What's the case for a bvoigt lynch?

[Sir Bastion]

If he flips scum that post may become my new sig...

[Sir Bastion]

Strangely I'm agreeing with 2bird1stone on this

of all the players in this game the most unproductive have been scumhunter and draken.

Palmer I'm sort of torn about as him and johman are so tied up together and I noticed after I rebutted his accusation of me lying he has avoided the issue. So I still have my FOS over him. Palmer I am suspect over his cop claim but I am equally suspect to johman keeping mum about being neighbour, his reasoning doesnt make sense. how 2bird being outed as a neighbour increased his chances of being hit are beyond me.

Scumhunter seems to be completely ignoring the case on him, again promising content which most likely will never materialise and is officially the most unproductive player in the game atm (even surpassing Draken for voting sloth now).

Flipping Draken would really open up day 1 for examination along with the TGS, Edgerobin flips.

Especially if he flips scum (RB you need to explain to me the logic of draken + scum = Bvoigt scum.) Personnally if Draken flips scum I'd argue it makes a stronger case for a scumhunter case then a bvoigt case personnally.

[Sir Bastion]

I just won my first game and got an awesome quote to sum it up for me.

[Sir Bastion]

Scumhunter, thank you for finally getting back to me.

Now that the two lurkers are back being active.

My position is primarily drawing from the events of Day 1 and less so from his meta (which I admit is much more difficult then Drakens due to both the amount of content and the diversity of his games) I am still highly suspect of Scumhunter.

Yes he addressed one point I made in my 2nd post on the issue and he admits he had trouble following my points. But he has not addressed the crux of my concern which is his very lazy approach to day 1.

if I feel strongly about one lynch option over another I certainly will push for it.

Which is not what you did on day 1, you sat on TSGR and you didnt move. You presented no case and you didnt push on other players. No POE or pushing. It reaks of scum coaxing day 1. The only time you became somewhat active was near the end when you give a dig or two at TSGR when he tried to defend himself (I'll come back to this in a second)

That coupled with your equally quiet approach to day 2 has made me suspect. I want to know what your thinking behind the TSGR wagon was. Primarily why you felt it was a good idea to sit on it for so much of the day.

I am happy to see you actively voting again and making a sort of attempt at giving reads.

But you've commited a mistake here that is just adding more suspicion.

I don’t know it could be that I’m not familiar with his play style but the tone of a lot of his posts seem almost unnecessarily accusatory to appear helpful.

from this post: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3564789

its rather peculiar mistake sometimes made by scum this, they sometimes make accusations on other players which they themselves are blatantly guilty of or take the same case they used for one player and just push it on a different player.

You fall into the first of these here and it is your second time doing it.

You accuse Bvoigt of being unnecessarily accusatory but a quick look at your posts:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3525062
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3527132


also you do it again here where you justify your town slips to me

I take a lot of heat for my first post in the game for saying "here's to hoping for a town win". I was town that game and I do try and emphasize my town mindset through all my play so that others can more easily view me as town. I can see how that could be interpreted as a scum-motivation to convince others you are town, but its the way I play and it works out fine most of the time I'd say.

but then on the TSG wagon:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3533072

Also, what I know is that a fairly consistent scumtell for me is that I claim to be "obvious" town early in games when there is no basis for people to trust me. I have used that line a number of times as scum early on in forum games off-site and I've gotten nailed pretty hard for it each time. If you can give me a convincing argument to why you are "obv town" (or just town in general) and why I should view you as such I'd be willing to switch.

So...you know very well that you as town tend to overplay the *obv town* mindset but on the flipside when TSGR did it (who was town) its a scumtell.

Your question back at you. Give me a

convincing argument

why you are *obv town* over a possible scum overplaying his town persona like you accused TSGR off.

Also more mirroring:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3527132

Bolded is for emphasis. We have 3 days to deadline. Where have you been lately? Why aren't you contributing at the stage of the day where we are trying to achieve a lynch?

says the person who had just written his 22nd post 3 days before deadline to the person who had written his 50th post.


So to recap you were mostly useless to us on day 1, the only time you got active you attacked TSGR on issues that quite frankly you were just of if not more guilty then him on. Day 2 you coaxed most of it until now to once again at the end where you have spewed off a series of reads which to me mostly seem to read like fluff.

The only thing saving your hide is that you fit in nicely with pretty much everyone else as they all seem too scared to stick their neck out to push anything at all.

I am perfectly happy to lynch scumhunter, Draken or Johman.

EDIT:

AND RAINBOW SCORES!!!

unvote VOTE: DELTAWAVE!

Excellent catch and good work!

[Sir Bastion]

confirming from the wiki:

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bodyguard

A Bodyguard is a role who can target a player at Night to protect them. However, if the protected player is supposed to be killed, the Bodyguard is killed instead ("taking the bullet" for them, as it were).
Bodyguard only protects from a single kill. If multiple people try to kill the Bodyguard's target, both the Bodyguard and the protected player will die.
Bodyguard is usually Town. It makes little sense for there to be a Mafia Bodyguard, as they have no reason to target anyone except a scumpartner; and a Vigilante who finds that their kill resolved on a different scum than they expected can simply shoot their previous target again.

This version of Bodyguard, and only this version of Bodyguard, is considered Normal on mafiascum.net.

Deltawave is lying.

[Sir Bastion]

this is a normal game. Only the above type of bodyguard is allowed in normal. You just described one with a percentage modifier which is not allowed on normal.


You are Lying.

[Sir Bastion]

g) Any of the roles specifically listed as Normal on The Wiki. In addition, there may be one other role that does not appear on that page

but does not use any explicitly non-normal mechanics.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Normal_Game

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).
Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).

Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices.

It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.
Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).

You tried to argue this earlier attacking RB for his lack of english skills.

I could say the same to you.

We have this thing called a full stop

this is it .

note where it comes in that sentence.

It means that the first half of that statement is one concise definition. THERE ARE NO RANDOM ELEMENTS.

the second half is relating to a different issue, which is how a mod acts when resolving issues.

It still stands quite clearly that in normal there are no random elements in our roles.

[Sir Bastion]

Oh and the biggest tell you are scum.

You didnt ask the mod straight away after my post.

Anyone else who genuinely believed there was a mistake would have done a

MOD:

message on the spot the very next post.

You didnt cause you are lying.

[Sir Bastion]

How about you read my post already shooting that idea down.

[Sir Bastion]

from wiki

A full stop (British English and Australian English) is the punctuation mark commonly placed at the end of sentences. In American English, the term used for this punctuation is period.[1] In the 21st century, it is often also called a dot by young people.[2] In conversation, as opposed to linguistics, the term

is often used to mean "the end of the matter"

(For example, "we are calling a full stop to discussions on this subject".)

[Sir Bastion]

I have a hard time believing that someone can fail this hard. "THERE'S A PERIOD SO IM GOING TO STOP READING, EVEN THOUGH THE SECOND SENTENCE IS OBVIOUSLY A QUALIFICATION FOR THE FIRST. DERP."

Even when you look at the second half you still fail

It

must be included in the public ruleset

if you are resolving night choices in this way.

included. Not hinted at included.

That means if there was a random element it would need to be stated in the public ruleset if it applied to players.


And no the *there could be something different* line does not count because on the same page:

Modifiers which are explicitly Normal include:
Even/Odd Night, Non-Consecutive Night, X-Shot, Bulletproof, Neighbor, Compulsive, Macho, Weak, Backup (with or without primary role present)

those are the only modifiers he's allowed use. RANDOM IS NOT ON THERE. So once again your something different doesnt count.

You are caught.

[Sir Bastion]

look its simple

you are claiming this:

A variant on Bodyguard that is occasionally seen is a Percentage Role: If the person they protect is supposed to be killed, 50% of the time the Bodyguard will stop the kill and learn who the attempted killer was; 50% of the time they will function as in the original definition. This role is both swingy and potentially overpowered, and is not recommended if it can be helped

problem is percentage is a modifier as stated here:
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... ntage_Role

A Percentage Role is a role with a modifier stating that they only work as stated a certain percentage of the time.

For example, a 50% Doctor (also called a Faith Healer) will protect their target 50% of the time and be completely ineffective the other 50% of the time. The player is not explicitly told whether their role worked.

It is not listed on the normal modifier's list. Therefore its not a normal modifier and is not allowed on this game. If there was an exception made, the mod needed to put in the public ruleset the percentages for such a modifier as outlined in the sentance you keep saying I ignored.

You cannot be this role, either this game is broken or you are lying. We wait on the mod.

[Sir Bastion]

btw I refuse to be apple jack, she's my least favourite pony.

Can I be Twilight Sparkle instead?

[Sir Bastion]

AJ is just too good, even her mental breakdown episode was based around her being too good and overworking herself.

All the other ponies have mental issues which makes them interesting while AJ is just a tad too vanilla for me. I still like her, but on the pecking order she comes in at the bottom.

[Sir Bastion]

though if you want me to be AJ I guess she fits me for this game.

[Sir Bastion]

also this thread here:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=19448

is what the 2nd half of that sentance is referring to

It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.

essentially a mod may opt to have the scenarios described in that thread be resolved by a percentage system but to do so he would need to make it clear in the public ruleset.

but the mod already stated in the public ruleset that he is using this system: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... Resolution to resolve night choices not a percentage system.

QED!

Deltawave is scum.

[Sir Bastion]

so very quick meta of the deltawave/shinki/protector account could start now if this is a sure lynch.

who comes up a lot who they voted and who they said where null or ignored etc etc.

[Sir Bastion]

I'm pretty damn sick atm.

Sorry for not contacting you earlier, but I need at least a day or two away.

unvote
vote: DeltaWave

and that's the hammer.

[Sir Bastion]

Today is a good day. Catching scum in all my games

[Sir Bastion]

except he lynched himself with a self vote...if he hadnt he'd still be at L-1 right now which would be a good spot for him for when the mod chimes in (if he does at all).

Also read the thread we discussed in depth on the possibility of the role being approved, considering its specifies in the wiki that only one kind of bodyguard is considered normal and that the modifier he described is clearly marked as not only not normal but also heavily frowned on being used:

Percentage roles are extremely unpopular due to incorporating a large and uncontrollable element of luck to a game, potentially negating any skill the player with the role may have. In extreme cases percent-based roles may be seen as an excuse for the moderator to toy with the players. It is recommended in most cases that percentage roles not be used at all, as many players associate it with bastard modding.

really screams to me that the chances of this getting through the review committee as highly unlikely.

though knowing about your unzipped fly I am now slightly unsure...damn it beck!

[Sir Bastion]

Shinki never backed the draken wagon, she did a lot of active lurking, commenting on good points and so on but she never voted or pushed on anything so if they flip scum I'll be back pushing that


will i have to fight you again over it draken?

[Sir Bastion]

oops miswrote that

EDIT:

"will i have to fight you again over draken RB?"

[Sir Bastion]

*jingle jingle jingle*

here moddy moddy moddy?

[Sir Bastion]

why bvoigt?

[Sir Bastion]

Do we need to call on the backup mod?

[Sir Bastion]

You claimed you weren't given any info related to night 1?

[Sir Bastion]

???


Seriously you make no sense. Anytime in the last 2 days the mod should have logged on and ended the day. So either spill now or you never will be able to. You have been lynched since Palmer hammered you.

Hence this all reads like BS

[Sir Bastion]

Here's my problem.

You told us your role but you weren't given any info from your 1st night. We prove your role is illegal and you are lynched. Now the mod is afk and you are saying you have role specific info that johman is scum.

Why didnt this come sooner?

How did you get this info?

Did you lie originally. If so why didn't you come clean instead of self voting yourself???

This all reeks of opportunistic bullish*t.

Be specific and clear.

[Sir Bastion]

Except you already said you didn't know the results of night 1!

[Sir Bastion]

So you lied. Hence the initial suspicion Is your own fault. Congratulations you did lynch yourself on every possible level

[Sir Bastion]

So you lied. Hence the initial suspicion Is your own fault. Congratulations you did lynch yourself on every possible level

I didn't lie at all about my what my role is. People thought my role was illegal and thus voted for me because they thought I was making it up, but that's BS.

My little ponies, he still is lying.

Remember how he started the day with a wierd vote?
Then only moved to Johman when Palmar claim a guilty?
Then unvoted to allow for a counterclaim?
Then expressed doubt that Johman was scum and Palmar faked it?

He is trolling you all good, would have expected a few of you to bite on that but expected better of you SB.

Fly steady.

[Sir Bastion]

grr sorry about that

So you lied. Hence the initial suspicion Is your own fault. Congratulations you did lynch yourself on every possible level

I didn't lie at all about my what my role is. People thought my role was illegal and thus voted for me because they thought I was making it up, but that's BS.

1. No you drew suspicion on you for three points in RB's original post. One of them was

Three, you didnt ask about predicessor actions. I honestly can't believe that anypony would choose to not ask about that.

Report back with what happened night one.

We can stop the massclaim now. No point in moving on since its one of two dying in my book right now, and both are claimed.

If you had come back with accurate info (who you defended and who was the attacker) then you wouldnt have had such a big push on you. Instead this push would have been opened up between both you and johman.

Admit it you killed yourself.

And on the illegal role issue, you've yet to get one person in this game to take your side. Either everyone here cant read or clearly you are reading it wrong.

My little ponies, he still is lying.

Remember how he started the day with a wierd vote?
Then only moved to Johman when Palmar claim a guilty?
Then unvoted to allow for a counterclaim?
Then expressed doubt that Johman was scum and Palmar faked it?

He is trolling you all good, would have expected a few of you to bite on that but expected better of you SB.

Fly steady.

Trolling or not he's already dead. Let a pony play a bit. I'm just disapointed its such bad trolling, I created a more convincing story then his on the tube ride home in less then 15 minutes.

[Sir Bastion]

Except its stated its non-normal modifier. It is explicitly non-normal.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bodyguard

Unless you can find an example of it being used in a normal game (and you wont cause I checked) then it is clearly illegal.

Also you are being stupidly vague on your info. You didnt say who you defended from johman, you didnt explain why Shinki didnt reveal this info or push for a johman lynch either?

you are either the worse player or the worse troll. Honestly I hope its the worse troll.

[Sir Bastion]

I'll laugh my ass off if it turns out you read it wrong or was sent the wrong role pm.

Otherwise simply you are scum and we will thank you for being bad scum and getting caught.

[Sir Bastion]

bored bored bored bored bored...

[Sir Bastion]

So Delta really was town bodyguard...
Rainbowdash was killed by mafia, but not before taking out Johman it seems.

Sir bastion... How do you respond to the bodyguard debacle?

by pming both mods for clarification which I already did. Monk said he'd ask the review board about it and Thomith hasnt been online since I sent it so no response from him yet.


Next on the list Johman scum means 2bird needs to defend himself, he claimed neighbour with johman. I dont know if its revealed when someone dies if they were neighbour or not aswell. Clearly it didnt for johman and I am not after yesterday going to go through another round of rules define the lynch. I will check to see if it is stated in rules or not but will not use it this time to push the lynch until I hear back from Thomith. I am still quite annoyed about yesterday because every bloody page on the wiki backed our perception.

Finally. RIP RB. I shall continue on as Applejack in memory of you.



You irritated me, drove me up the wall at times, but clearly your heart was in the right place.

DRAKEN!

That pony died and she defended you all of day 1.

PROVE TO HER YOU WERE WORTH DEFENDING ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING TODAY!

[Sir Bastion]

going from the front page of this game: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3444140

which is also a mini normal

neighbors are revealed when they are killed as shown here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3500764

but I'd like a mod toe confirm this time

MOD: Does a player's status as neighbor get revealed when they are killed or lynched?

If there are any Neighbour flips they will be noted as such
--monk

[Sir Bastion]

and voila.

2birds is not a neighbor.

he lied and is clearly scum

vote: 2birds1stone

MOD: did you get a response on the issue with the bodyguard from the last day from the review group?

I am not going to discuss it in the main thread or by PM until end game

[Sir Bastion]

ok no problem.


lets push on then.

2birds1stone you openly lied claiming to be something you are not you continued a charade with johman all through day 2 which has now been shown to be false. Do you have any conceivable reason why someone working with the town would lie to save scum?

[Sir Bastion]

this time thankfully we have the mod confirm the mechanics so we know 100% that

johman was not a neighbor

[Sir Bastion]

a small bit.

Actually both you and Draken are looking slightly suspect to me purely for ignoring the elephant in the room when we started today.

More so Draken as he got somewhat accusatory with the term *debacle.*

But right now I wont make any calls on further scum until 2birds defends himself and I get to look at their ISO.

[Sir Bastion]

ok guys this time a bit less eager he's already at

L-2

So no one else vote until we get an answer from him!

[Sir Bastion]

I think this game would be more fun if ANY claim were allowed.

isnt that what the open games are for though?

normal allows it within reason. Which was where the issue was raised.

[Sir Bastion]

he's your lucky plushtoy?

[Sir Bastion]

i am actually trying to work out a scenario where 2bird could be town but honestly the only one that works is so incredible far fetched and pointless that its laughable. I'll wait til I see his response then you can have storytime with basty...

[Sir Bastion]

If this goes as hoped should we seriously consider a massclaim tomorrow?