Mini 1252 - My Not So Humble Abode - Game Over

[Palmar]

Sup!

Vote: Johman

[Palmar]

Sup!

Vote: Johman

Any reasoning behind this vote?

Yeah, I think he's mafia!

[Palmar]

vote: weirdbeard

That beard is heinous. I saw it in the signup thread and was like OH DEAR GOD.

Heh, saw it too, in another game. Awesome.

VOTE: weirdbeard

BANDWAGON GO!

~Johhog

First off, he echoes a comment about about bear, which isn't scummy in itself, what's interesting is that when put in context of everything else he has posted it becomes obvious it's basically non-content probably posted in order to just say something.

In addition, if you announce that your vote is to start a bandwagon, or to put pressure, you have defeated the purpose. This sucks if you're town, but it's good if you're mafia because you don't actually want people to follow your lead if you're mafia unless you're a really strong player. He's basically just throwing away responsibility with this unnecessary addition.

He then writes what appears to be a big post, but it contains jokes, a silly image, and in the end there is no content in this post. The interesting thing is that this is actually a bandwagon he's joining. It's not really a problem, joining good bandwagon is always a good idea if you're town, what's troubling is that he feels the need to rehash points already made about Protector to make it look less like jumping a bandwagon. Overall I think the posting by him is generally cautious although he tries to hide it behind jokes, and I think it reeks of how I'd expect mafia to play.

Those are my main reasons.

[Palmar]

I know I insulted TSGRaaize's EpicMafia tendencies earlier, but that last post was somewhat reasonable, though everyone has a natural bias towards posts which suggest them town (or maybe that's just me). I would go as far as to call him town, but I have something to add about him at the end of this post

Enough has happened since my last post that I'm having to re-evaluate some reads, but I'll finish talking about Johman. Last time I posted, I labelled him null-scum, but I'm not so sure now on rereading his ISO, and reading Rainbowdash's argument against the wagon on him. His defence is humourous yet logical, I like that. I also like his DP.

Also Weirdbeard, now you're just wagoning for the sake of wagoning. You didn't even respond to my points on why Palmar's case is crap.

Funnily enough, I hadn't really noticed Weirdbeard. This was my first clue that I'm not reading this game as well as I could, sorry about that guys, I'mma spend the first day of the holidays familiarising myself with the game. Anyway, I ISO'd him, and I found two things I don't like. One was this, and I will cover the other thing at the end of this post.

I still like Protector and Rainbowdash. In fact, I'm considering leaving my girlfriend for Rainbowdash.

I have nothing to say about Sir Bastion as of yet. I'mma analyse his posts tomorrow though. I love holidays so much.

PALMAR! Scum. You remember how I left judgement on TSGRaaize and Weirdbeard dangling? Well, after Palmar posted what I would consider a fairly weak case, they both sheeped it immediately. Quite literally immediately, post #54 contains the case, #55 contains TSGRaaize's vote, and #57 has Weirdbeard's vote. Palmar/TSGRaaize/Weirdbeard scumteam anyone?

Vote: Palmar

, and I'mma get myself a coffee.

I find it extremely hard to differentiate bad town play from scum play. You never know if people are being intentionally stupid or accidentally stupid. Because I don't actually know anyone in this game, I'm just going to assume you aren't terrible, and thus you're scum.

You actually believe that you have a case for figuring out three scum based on one post? The first half of your post seems quite logical, I agree that RBD should not be considered for the lynch today. I'm not as convinced Protector is town, but while I agree with him I can only assume he's agreeing because he reads the thread and achieves the same conclusions as I do.

The case against Johman isn't particularly weak, but it's not the best case in town anymore, not after this gem of a post from you.

I would like to single out his justification of the vote on me in his post:

PALMAR! Scum. You remember how I left judgement on TSGRaaize and Weirdbeard dangling? Well, after Palmar posted what I would consider a fairly weak case, they both sheeped it immediately. Quite literally immediately, post #54 contains the case, #55 contains TSGRaaize's vote, and #57 has Weirdbeard's vote. Palmar/TSGRaaize/Weirdbeard scumteam anyone?

Do you notice something weird. He calls my case weak, which is fine, I can't force people to agree with me. But that doesn't seem to be the reason he sticks his vote on me.

2birds1stone is voting for me based on the actions of two other players, not based on my own actions.

This is completely unacceptable and it's either terrible town play, or much more likely, scum play. I may look like a weak target being new on this site but I have played mafia before. I don't know the exact motivation for this attack of his, but it's not logical. I just want to re-iterate how absurd it is to attack me based on how other people react to a case brought forward by me.

I will be voting 2birds1stone for this, as it's bad logic. I believe he's being maliciously ignorant.

Vote: 2birds1stone

[Palmar]

Voting someone because he is wrong and saying you are assuming he is wrong because he is Mafia is a far scummier move than being wrong.

Unvote

Vote: Parama

If you think someone is wrong, you tell him why he's wrong, you don't try to get him voted off his mistake.

I am assuming this is a VOTE: Palmar

Thomith.

You're approaching it from the wrong side.

Mafia has to force themselves to be wrong in order to win the game. There is no such thing as being right as mafia, because the only way you're right is if you try to bus your teammates or vote for yourself, the former I doubt mafia would do on day 1, although I don't know how people play here, and the latter is obviously retarded.

I have no problem with people being wrong, I've already seen plenty of things that I don't agree with in this thread, and undoubtedly there are things others don't agree with me on. It's not about being wrong, it's about

HOW

you become wrong.

2birds1stone uses logic which is clearly false. I'd actually not have had a problem with it if he accused one of the people that followed my vote for bandwagoning a bad case, because that's logical. It is not necessarily right, but at least it can be supported through logic. Voting me because two people followed my vote is however straight up bad logic, thus he has become wrong in an extremely mafia-favoured way.

[Palmar]

Voting someone because he is wrong and saying you are assuming he is wrong because he is Mafia is a far scummier move than being wrong.

Unvote

Vote: Parama

If you think someone is wrong, you tell him why he's wrong, you don't try to get him voted off his mistake.

I am assuming this is a VOTE: Palmar

Thomith.

You're approaching it from the wrong side.

Mafia has to force themselves to be wrong in order to win the game. There is no such thing as being right as mafia, because the only way you're right is if you try to bus your teammates or vote for yourself, the former I doubt mafia would do on day 1, although I don't know how people play here, and the latter is obviously retarded.

I have no problem with people being wrong, I've already seen plenty of things that I don't agree with in this thread, and undoubtedly there are things others don't agree with me on. It's not about being wrong, it's about

HOW

you become wrong.

2birds1stone uses logic which is clearly false. I'd actually not have had a problem with it if he accused one of the people that followed my vote for bandwagoning a bad case, because that's logical. It is not necessarily right, but at least it can be supported through logic. Voting me because two people followed my vote is however straight up bad logic, thus he has become wrong in an extremely mafia-favoured way.

I still don't think he should be voted for that, but I like your logic. Let's go back to my previous vote.

Unvote

Vote: Draken

@Beck: You haven't been very involved in the game, your last vote was a few hours ago and you haven't given any opinion on what has been happening since then.

Also, do you still honestly think I'm the scummiest person of this game?

Oh no, you're not getting off that easily now that you've involved yourself in the case. Can you explain in detail why he should not be voted for that? You seem to unattached to the conclusions you make.

When you put your vote on me, you must have read my post, and figured out that the only way I'd post something like that is if I was scum. Now I don't agree with that "it's scummy to say someone is wrong and call him scum for it", because in my opinion being wrong based on bad logic is one of the biggest indicator someone is mafia.

Apparently my second post explaining this was enough to sway you back, so now you must believe that I am not scum, and thus I must be town. This means my case is relevant to your interests if you're town too. So, I don't like the fact that you shrug it off by saying "Let's go back to my previous vote".

I want you to break down the interactions between me and 2birds1stone, and then explain why he should not be voted.

Can you do that?

[Palmar]

oh fuck it, i cant hold it back and i dont care

WEIRDBEARD YOU **** YOU SHEEP YOU DON'T READ YOU PUT EVERYONE WHO AGREES WITH YOU AS TOWN YOU "DON'T LIKE" RBD HAVING ME AS A TOWN READ WTF REALLY YOU JUMPS AROUND HOPPING SUSPICIONS TO ALL THE TIME YOU THINKS THAT I'M SCUM BECUASE I'M NOT SCUMHUNTING (I WAS AT A CHESS COMPETITION YOU **** ******* ****) IN LIKE TWO DYAS AND BASICALLY VOTE ME BECAUSE I CALLED YOU OUT ON YOUR TERRIBAD VOTE YOU SCUM OR YOU ARE CLEARLY NOT EVEN TRYING AND I HATE YOU YOU FAIL

I WILL provide a case tomorrow, hopefully I will be calmer then and im in a realyl bad mood now. just TERY to play teh damn game wweirdbeard, i know you can do better from another game and im not supposed to punch my computer screen in rage because of you.

CASE. TOMORROW.

I'm not posting anymore.

This site sucks.

[Palmar]

unvote
vote Johman

Policy lynch. I don't actually give a shit. Blowing up like that and insulting people is almost exclusively a townie trait. But apparently that's considered okay here, so I would expect mafia to exactly try to feign being mad. Instead of attacking the arguments, he attacks the intelligence of WB.

I don't like people who do this shit, so I'm voting him.

Fuck scumhunting, I'm just gonna vote to lynch the biggest dick in the game.

Johman has been dealt with and knows that if they dares blow up again i will tear them to shreads, no matter how much of an idiot he is being tone down the insults.

Thomith.

[Palmar]

Prodding Palmar (votecount coming)

Hi, still here. Still wanna lynch Johman because he's a dick, and probably scum anyway.

Also, notice the immediate stupid reaction to my vote on him. A townie would realize (as RBD did), that my actions are those of a frustrated town rather than mafia. He immediately realized there is a potential for a mislynch there.

I'm not changing my vote off him. In fact, I will vote for him every day until he's dead.

[Palmar]

Hi, just popping in to say I still wanna lynch johman

[Palmar]

hi, still wanna lynch johman.

[Palmar]

he's a good vigi target because he's scum

[Palmar]

No, I genuinely think Johman is scum.

And I think we need to lynch him.

[Palmar]

I'll hammer 2b1s, but I still want to lynch johman.

[Palmar]

I think we should lynch johman

[Palmar]

Give me a reason not to vote you Draken.

I still think we should just lynch Johman to get it out of the way, he's scummy as fuck, he's basically not contributed anything, which is true for me too, but I don't actually give a shit.

Aside from Johman, Draken and 2b1s still look pretty bad in my eyes. I'm not quite sure what to make of the soft claim. 2b1s is probably the safe lynch today, while draken is the easy lynch.

But I have steel instead of balls, so I'm sticking with Johman, but I have no qualms hammering Draken and I'll do it without a case if I feel like it, so better get that defense in early mr. Draken.

[Palmar]

Serious question, are you parama's alt?

Never played on this site under this or any other name before.

[Palmar]

hey, did I mention I want to lynch johman?

also 2b1s is fine, if he get to L-1 I'll hammer that shit.

Can you start playing the game properly please, thanks.

Thomith.

[Palmar]

As for a list of people I wanna lynch

2b1s
Johman

and maybe...

Draken.

Not sure on him, can we just kill 2b1s?

[Palmar]

okay

Unvote Johman
Vote 2birds1stone

[Palmar]

TSGR isn't scum.

Johman is guaranteed scum, he's 100%.

2b1s has a good chance of flipping scum, there is a chance draken flips scum.

[Palmar]

Hey team!

Now that you've successfully lynched a townie despite me telling you he's town, how about we lynch scum today?

Vote: Johman

[Palmar]

Sure, I can support a 2b1s lynch

Unvote
Vote: 2b1s

[Palmar]

Sure, when you're dead I'll contribute.

Until then I don't have to, I have found two very likely scum.

[Palmar]

Probably because the host used some kinda random number generator and it assigned you scum.

[Palmar]

@Palmar, you're annyoing for two reasons. One, YOU'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING; two, I really like to think you're scum but I can't see you on the same scumteam as RBD or Draken.

We both agreed TSRG wasn't scum on day 1.

Remind me, which one of us was it that just voted for him anyway?

[Palmar]

You voted for town on day 1 and now you're voting for town again...

I hope for your sake you're scum, because otherwise you're really bad at this.

[Palmar]

whatup.

Johman really went from strongest town read to FoS fast on that 2b1s case.

Interesting!

Let's double lynch them.

[Palmar]

@RBD

Draken is probably town
2b1s is probably scum
Johman is scum

[Palmar]

Unvote
Vote Johman

I suggest the rest of you do the same, can't believe he's getting away like that.

[Palmar]

I'll actually make a case, no idea why it's needed because the information is in the thread for everyone to see:

First off, I'll mention a huge problem I have with his play on day 1:

oh fuck it, i cant hold it back and i dont care

WEIRDBEARD YOU **** YOU SHEEP YOU DON'T READ YOU PUT EVERYONE WHO AGREES WITH YOU AS TOWN YOU "DON'T LIKE" RBD HAVING ME AS A TOWN READ WTF REALLY YOU JUMPS AROUND HOPPING SUSPICIONS TO ALL THE TIME YOU THINKS THAT I'M SCUM BECUASE I'M NOT SCUMHUNTING (I WAS AT A CHESS COMPETITION YOU **** ******* ****) IN LIKE TWO DYAS AND BASICALLY VOTE ME BECAUSE I CALLED YOU OUT ON YOUR TERRIBAD VOTE YOU SCUM OR YOU ARE CLEARLY NOT EVEN TRYING AND I HATE YOU YOU FAIL

I WILL provide a case tomorrow, hopefully I will be calmer then and im in a realyl bad mood now. just TERY to play teh damn game wweirdbeard, i know you can do better from another game and im not supposed to punch my computer screen in rage because of you.

CASE. TOMORROW.

Remember this post, he has the nerve to call someone dumb for pushing his lynch. Initially I just got mad at him for blowing up like that because it's completely disrespectful and it directly pushes mafia agenda. He's actively discouraging scumhunting by trying to undermine the confidence of fellow players, but then I called him out and asked for a policy lynch, he made completely the wrong call and OMGUS voted me.

This is weird, because it's actually very unlikely mafia would do what I did, as I'm putting my neck out there by pushing a lynch with a "I don't give a shit, I just want you dead" attitude, which most of you seem to have read correctly as town move.

Also, it bothers me that he feels he can blow up like this on someone, and then do this himself:

Thought I already did this, but if the votecount is correct I didn't.

UNVOTE: weirdbeard
VOTE: SGRaaize

I have a bit of a gut scum read on this guy and IIRC Racerman told me in the QT that he has something. I suppose he will create a case on SGR.

And push a lynch that was much more stupid than the case against himself, I don't think I've stated this about many people in the game, but I explicitly said "TSGR is not scum". This is because to anyone who's putting the least amount of effort into this game should've seen that TSGR was not scummy at all.

Next up:

I'm back, expect content soon. Racerman didn't even post during my V/LA, right? I'll try to find him.

~J

This is just a tiny tell, but you see, the difference between town players who don't contribute and scum players who don't contribute is that the scum always feels the need to promise to contribute or try to appear as they are, town players genuinely tend to not give a shit. Promising content and then not delivering is surprisingly a very powerful scumtell.

Just another little annoyance of mine.

@weirdbeard and Palmar, guys, if you're not going to read who made the post it's unnecessary for me to write that little signature there. I mean, I forget it all the time regardless.

And I can't believe I would change my stance this much but I'm up for a policy lynch on Palmar. He's not contributing at all and I

think

he's just trolling.

~J

I don't give a shit which one of you wrote what, you're the same person to me, you can't just disagree on reads publicly and then when the shit hits the fan, the one who had the good read can use that as defense, that's bullshit. If you disagree I will see that as a contradiction, just clean up your act in private before posting in the thread.

Finally

Mod, I suppose you won't force replace players for not playing the game, eh?

VOTE: Palmar

He's had his chances and he's just destroying the game for everyone else now. If he's scum, awesome that we caught one. If he's town we got rid of a player that is hurting town.

~J

Notice the inherent guilt in he's tone.

You never vote for town as town, no matter how distracting or annoying they can be. Why even bring up the possibility of me being town? Is it because you already know I am? Really, the only reason you mention that is so that if the players in this game turn off their brains and lynch me, you can say tomorrow "oh well, he was hurting town", because you know you won't be able to say "yay, we lynched scum". You're providing yourself with an alibi for pushing a lynch even before it is achieved.

If you aren't scum, you would have either deduced I'm town or I'm scum, not done what you posted right there.

Johman is scum

So, how do you like that for content?

[Palmar]

Remember this post, he has the nerve to call someone dumb for pushing his lynch. Initially I just got mad at him for blowing up like that because it's completely disrespectful and it directly pushes mafia agenda. He's actively discouraging scumhunting by trying to undermine the confidence of fellow players, but then I called him out and asked for a policy lynch, he made completely the wrong call and OMGUS voted me.

This is weird, because it's actually very unlikely mafia would do what I did, as I'm putting my neck out there by pushing a lynch with a "I don't give a shit, I just want you dead" attitude, which most of you seem to have read correctly as town move.

Ah, this is hypocritical you see. In a post shortly after, where you pushed my policy lynch you said "Blowing up like that and insulting people is almost exclusively a townie trait. But apparently that's considered okay here, so I would expect mafia to exactly try to feign being mad.".
I could say the absolute same thing about you, not contributing and destroying the game for everyone is also seen as a townie trait but I would expect scum to do that.

And wouldn't you say that you was "actively discouraging scumhunting" when you was mad and didn't contribute at all for almost a month?

Nah, this point is worth nothing (and hypocritical) and as such I will disregard it from now on.

And push a lynch that was much more stupid than the case against himself, I don't think I've stated this about many people in the game, but I explicitly said "TSGR is not scum". This is because to anyone who's putting the least amount of effort into this game should've seen that TSGR was not scummy at all.

Oh, you have no right to say that considering that you did absolutely NOTHING to save SGR. You just stood there and watched him get lynched.

This is just a tiny tell, but you see, the difference between town players who don't contribute and scum players who don't contribute is that the scum always feels the need to promise to contribute or try to appear as they are, town players genuinely tend to not give a shit. Promising content and then not delivering is surprisingly a very powerful scumtell.

No, it means that you're actually contributing (because I'm going to ignore where you said I didn't contribute, I did) and trying to find scum. You don't think that you're automatically town for acting like a child and refusing to scumhunt for a long time, right?

I don't give a shit which one of you wrote what, you're the same person to me, you can't just disagree on reads publicly and then when the shit hits the fan, the one who had the good read can use that as defense, that's bullshit. If you disagree I will see that as a contradiction, just clean up your act in private before posting in the thread.

So if Racerman, without any discussion with me (or if I do the same to him) completely changes our read on 2b1s I'm not allowed to disagree?! Btw Racerman, if you're reading this we need to talk in our QT, I can tell everyone that we haven't spoke in our QT since early D1.

You never vote for town as town, no matter how distracting or annoying they can be. Why even bring up the possibility of me being town? Is it because you already know I am? Really, the only reason you mention that is so that if the players in this game turn off their brains and lynch me, you can say tomorrow "oh well, he was hurting town", because you know you won't be able to say "yay, we lynched scum". You're providing yourself with an alibi for pushing a lynch even before it is achieved.

Once again hypocritical. I can even say that I'm 80% sure that you're town, but that was a policy vote. Just like your policy vote on me earlier.

Difference between you and me is I've never pretended to be doing more than I am, when I pushed a policy lynch day 1, I already had made a case on you, remember. If someone I had a strong town read on at the time had done the same, I wouldn't have pushed it, you decided to not remember that I actually clarified later on that I thought you were scum, and I stand by that read.

I did try to save TSGR, I both tried to push alternative wagons and told people he wasn't scum, I underestimated how easily people would be drawn to his lynch, as I thought it was nonsensical.

And finally, yes. If I allow you guys to have conflicting opinions I can't analyse you, so please clean up what you want to say before posting.

Anwyay, It's not you who I'm going to try to convince you're scum, it's the rest of town, it's going to be hard, but I'm really not going to let town waste another lynch like that.

[Palmar]

I agree, it's unlikely they are both scum, and it's highly likely one of them is.

2b1s seems like the easier lynch and johman did a very scummy "strong townread" -> "fos" thing on him. I know it was two heads of the hydra, but it can be interpreted as them not agreeing on a strategy. (Gain town credit by defending a townie, or push a mislynch).

This is assuming 2b1s is not scum, which I have a fairly hard time believing, but if I'm forced to pick one of the two, I'd lynch johman

[Palmar]

I agree with that, and I'd also like to note the lack of results from Johman's alleged scumhunting. So far his only posts that are longer than a few lines have been defensive posts, I would dare say he has done very little scumhunting indeed.

[Palmar]

Now to other things

I agree, it's unlikely they are both scum, and it's highly likely one of them is.

2b1s seems like the easier lynch and johman did a very scummy "strong townread" -> "fos" thing on him. I know it was two heads of the hydra, but it can be interpreted as them not agreeing on a strategy. (Gain town credit by defending a townie, or push a mislynch).

This is assuming 2b1s is not scum, which I have a fairly hard time believing, but if I'm forced to pick one of the two, I'd lynch johman

This post confuses me, you seem to say that we're not both scum, and then label the both of us scum.

Now aint that a bitch?

[Palmar]

That's not a scumtell btw.

[Palmar]

Mod, I'm back now.

~J

PS 2b1s is town.

Seriously, lynch this guy. Pull your heads out of your asses and understand the situation at hand.

Why would he post this? Why does he have this read? It's pretty obvious that 2b1s has done some very questionable things in the game, to the point that it is likely 2b1s is scum.

However, what we also know is that if 2b1s flips scum, Johman is fucked. Both a town Johman and Scum Johman would realize this, so what is the possible benefit of stating something like this about one of the most scummy players in the game? The entire defense is that 2b1s is newbie town, like that's it. There is nothing to it expect that. Any reasonable town has no interests in defending 2b1s, as you can probably tell by the fact we're pretty willing to lynch him.

The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is that Scum Johman would never do what he's doing except if 2b1s was town. So I propose lynching Johman. It's a possible reverse bus so if we do have an investigative role that person should still take a look at 2b1s even if Johman flips scum.

The thing is that Johman might be right in defending 2b1s, but he'd be right for the wrong reasons.

He's scum. Like seriously, I'm willing to put my own head on it, shoot me tonight with a vigi or lynch me tomorrow if he's not. Johman is scum.

[Palmar]

Yes, I'm very mad.

The whole push for a 2b1s lynch is scum driven, I'm completely sure of it. There is so many cases that are stronger, so many scummier people out there.

And meanwhile 2b1s keeps towntelling.

And still people keep voting him.

This game.

~J

Explain the towntells.

Because the only thing that makes him town in my mind is the fact that you're defending him and I think you're even more likely to be scum than him.

[Palmar]

Is your suspicion biased at all by the d1 fight between you two?

mine?

No, read the case I wrote on him on page 39.

I've made several clear points why he's scum.

[Palmar]

Mod, I'm back now.

~J

PS 2b1s is town.

Seriously, lynch this guy. Pull your heads out of your asses and understand the situation at hand.

Why would he post this? Why does he have this read? It's pretty obvious that 2b1s has done some very questionable things in the game, to the point that it is likely 2b1s is scum.

However, what we also know is that if 2b1s flips scum, Johman is fucked. Both a town Johman and Scum Johman would realize this, so what is the possible benefit of stating something like this about one of the most scummy players in the game? The entire defense is that 2b1s is newbie town, like that's it. There is nothing to it expect that. Any reasonable town has no interests in defending 2b1s, as you can probably tell by the fact we're pretty willing to lynch him.

The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is that Scum Johman would never do what he's doing except if 2b1s was town. So I propose lynching Johman. It's a possible reverse bus so if we do have an investigative role that person should still take a look at 2b1s even if Johman flips scum.

The thing is that Johman might be right in defending 2b1s, but he'd be right for the wrong reasons.

He's scum. Like seriously, I'm willing to put my own head on it, shoot me tonight with a vigi or lynch me tomorrow if he's not. Johman is scum.

This is full of confirmation bias.

scum or bad? Can't tell.

[Palmar]

What the fuck is this, this is worse than the average town on Epicmafia.

Why do I have to explain to you what's going on? It's pretty obvious what situation we're in.

@RBD: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3551822 <--- Just because you can't be arsed reading the thread.

Then take a look at his response/defense to both the attacks of me and Weirdbeard. They can be summed up as "NO U". It's basically a giant rant of "but you're not better at all!". How is that a valid defense? We're not discussing my alignment... he's not going to convince me I'm mafia or something. Instead of responding to the points and explain from a town perspective why they were what they are, Johman resorted to childish "WELL YOU'RE SCUMMY TOO!!!!".

Which is terrible if you're town, because all your actions as town should be explainable even with bad explanations as townie actions. But he can't explain his actions so he resorts to "NO U" instead. Which is fine if you're mafia, especially if the town is too bad at this to notice.

I actually thought we had a few good players in here, but I'm starting to have my doubts.

@Bvoigt: Just don't post please, everything you've said in the thread is a huge pile of garbage, so bad that you might actually be scum.

@Sir Bastion: Probably town, now take a look at Johman and understand why we must kill him off.

This game is making me so mad.

[Palmar]

Gotta go figure out what confirmation bias means

Confirmation bias is a stupid buzzword scum throw around when people make cases against them or their teammates.

Technically it's supposed to mean that you draw the conclusion and then you fit your evidence to that conclusion, instead of looking at the evidence first and drawing conclusion from this evidence.

In science this is pretty relevant because if you've already decided what your results will be, you'll be bending the evidence to fit your theory. It is relevant because your result can be scientifically proven.

In mafia nothing can actually be proven, so any case made at any point in the game is always going to suffer from confirmation bias, because once you get it into your head someone is scum, you'll read all their posts again with the mindset that they're scum. Bvoigt is either terrible or scum so he has decided to ignore my case on Johman using this logic.

I don't know what more I can give you.

I've brought to light so much evidence, I have pushed and pushed for Johman's lynch on day 2, If you are town and not voting for him, take a good hard look at your play and realize you're a liability.

[Palmar]

Gotta go figure out what confirmation bias means

Confirmation bias is a stupid buzzword scum throw around when people make cases against them or their teammates.

Technically it's supposed to mean that you draw the conclusion and then you fit your evidence to that conclusion, instead of looking at the evidence first and drawing conclusion from this evidence.

In science this is pretty relevant because if you've already decided what your results will be, you'll be bending the evidence to fit your theory. It is relevant because your result can be scientifically proven.

In mafia nothing can actually be proven, so

any case made at any point in the game is always going to suffer from confirmation bias

, because once you get it into your head someone is scum, you'll read all their posts again with the mindset that they're scum. Bvoigt is either terrible or scum so he has decided to ignore my case on Johman using this logic.

I don't know what more I can give you.

I've brought to light so much evidence, I have pushed and pushed for Johman's lynch on day 2, If you are town and not voting for him, take a good hard look at your play and realize you're a liability.

That might be true to some extent. But even when you look at a player you find scummy, you should be able to say, "You know, that's a towntell after all" or "That could come from either alignment." And I think this particular post of Johman's was null.

Mod, I'm back now.

~J

PS 2b1s is town.

Seriously, lynch this guy. Pull your heads out of your asses and understand the situation at hand.

Why would he post this? Why does he have this read? It's pretty obvious that 2b1s has done some very questionable things in the game, to the point that it is likely 2b1s is scum.

I am sort of seeing the same thing as Johman. At some points, 2birds is giving off scum vibes. At others, he does seem like newbtown. So I don't think a townread on 2birds is unreasonable.

However, what we also know is that if 2b1s flips scum, Johman is fucked. Both a town Johman and Scum Johman would realize this, so what is the possible benefit of stating something like this about one of the most scummy players in the game? The entire defense is that 2b1s is newbie town, like that's it. There is nothing to it expect that.

Any reasonable town has no interests in defending 2b1s, as you can probably tell by the fact we're pretty willing to lynch him.

The bolded doesn't make any sense to me. Most people might be willing to lynch 2birds, but of Johman does in fact have a town read, he has a very obvious reason to defend him. This is very similar to the way Rainbowdash defended Draken on Day 1. Why didn't you call out RBD at the time?

Because I agreed that Draken was unlikely to be scum.

Also, I want to re-iterate, although I'm probably just talking to scum here, but maybe some town will actually read this.

It's not the fact that Johman defends 2b1s that's scummy. Defending bad trains is much more than okay. It's the reasoning behind it and the manner in which it's done that's important. Johman posts absolutely the least amount of content he can get away with, he had to be repeatedly prodded to explain why he thought someone playing as scummy as 2b1s was giving him town-vibes.

I've seen this so many times before, and the ineptitude of this town is starting to piss me off. I had heard horror stories on how bad mafiascum towns are, and it seems they weren't exaggerated.

[Palmar]

But "we," the town in general, were pretty willing to lynch Draken. No reasonable town would have any interest in defending him.

No, some scummies and bad townies wanted to lynch him. that's not "we".

Also, I can change my arguments if I want, that's not a defense, they individually stand anyway.

Now stop posting you scummy fucker.

[Palmar]

yeah I'm done.

Enjoy losing.

[Palmar]

2birds1stone

Rainbowdash

Beck

Johman

bvoigt

Draken

Sir Bastion

weirdbeard

Scumhunter

DeltaWave

Palmar

[Palmar]

Palmar, please explain this for me and I will think about changing my vote

Bvoigt said this -

The bolded doesn't make any sense to me. Most people might be willing to lynch 2birds, but of Johman does in fact have a town read, he has a very obvious reason to defend him. This is very similar to the way Rainbowdash defended Draken on Day 1. Why didn't you call out RBD at the time?

you say this -

Because I agreed that Draken was unlikely to be scum.

however looking at your ISO about Draken

DAY 1

Give me a reason not to vote you Draken.

I still think we should just lynch Johman to get it out of the way, he's scummy as fuck, he's basically not contributed anything, which is true for me too, but I don't actually give a shit.

Aside from Johman, Draken and 2b1s still look pretty bad in my eyes. I'm not quite sure what to make of the soft claim. 2b1s is probably the safe lynch today, while draken is the easy lynch.

But I have steel instead of balls, so I'm sticking with Johman, but I have no qualms hammering Draken and I'll do it without a case if I feel like it, so better get that defense in early mr. Draken.

As for a list of people I wanna lynch

2b1s
Johman

and maybe...

Draken.

Not sure on him, can we just kill 2b1s?

TSGR isn't scum.

Johman is guaranteed scum, he's 100%.

2b1s has a good chance of flipping scum, there is a chance draken flips scum.

DAY 2

@RBD

Draken is probably town
2b1s is probably scum
Johman is scum

Seems like you actually thought Draken was scum on day 1 and it was only day 2 that he was a town read. And in post 702 you just say so sure of yourself that TSG was town and than the next day was like "see I told you he was town"

it just doesn't add up that you can be so sure that someone is town and scum like you are unless you are scum, plus you basically just lied, you didn't think Draken was town day 1, but today you say that is why you didn't question rainbow.

nice try though.

I don't want to explain anything, notice that I'm very unsure on Draken's scummyness on day 1. There was a possibility.

As I said, bring it on, lynch me, it'll make my life easier as I won't have to deal with terrible townies who can't see the game they're playing because their heads are too far up their asses.

[Palmar]

contradictions aren't scumtells, it's only the way you contradict that can be read.

But I wouldn't expect you guys to understand that.

[Palmar]

it just doesn't add up that you can be so sure that someone is town and scum like you are unless you are scum

, plus you basically just lied, you didn't think Draken was town day 1, but today you say that is why you didn't question rainbow.

Or... I'm not retarded.

Also, notice I've flopped my reads for 2b1s and Draken, Draken from scummy-> probably town and 2b1s from scum -> likely town.

And I NEVER want to lynch anyone that isn't my strongest scumread, so I don't want to lynch Draken day 1, despite him being kinda scummy as I had 2 better scumreads back then.

[Palmar]

Palmar

Beck

weirdbeard

Sir Bastion

Rainbowdash

Draken

2birds1stone

Scumhunter

DeltaWave

bvoigt

Johman

Re-arranged for readability. you can just follow this list after you lynch me. Remember to be critical as new information might present itself that has to be considered.

Unvote
Vote Palmar

[Palmar]

Butterflies!

[Palmar]

Butterflies!

So your plan is to vote for yourself and then be incredibly uncooperative until you finally get lynched?

yeah!

Aint that a bitch?

[Palmar]

or well, I'l co-operate if you decide to lynch johman or bvoigt.... maybe yourself, but rather the other two.

[Palmar]

or well, I'l co-operate if you decide to lynch johman or bvoigt.... maybe yourself, but rather the other two.

Is it in your meta to always be this pissy?

Lol fuck it

I'm a cop, Johman is scum.

[Palmar]

Unvote
Vote Johman

[Palmar]

What's up now bro! How you gonna "NO U" your way out of this?

[Palmar]

because that's how I roll.

[Palmar]

What are peoples thoughts on the chances of both Johman and 2bird being scum?

Possible, not probable.

[Palmar]

Palmar - time to be real now, are you really the cop or are you fakeclaiming because nobody will listen to you?

conceding this, I'm vanilla town.

I still think we should lynch johman, nothing else makes sense.

[Palmar]

Ya, I think he's town. I also believe you and 2b1s are both town at first glance. Massive post coming...tonight? deadline is coming so i need to get my ass in gear here. I'm suspicious of bvoigt but i need to really reread to see if i still feel that way later.

I'll support a bvoigt lynch btw. I think it's the only lynch I'll support aside from johman

[Palmar]

I'm pretty damn sick atm.

Sorry for not contacting you earlier, but I need at least a day or two away.

unvote
vote: DeltaWave

[Palmar]

Next time I say someone is scum, just fucking listen to it instead of being completely stupid and ignoring it.

There doesn't need to be a case, Johman has been so fucking obvious since day 1.

Now let's murder 2b1s for lying about the neighbor thing and then bvoigt for being scum

Vote: 2birds1stone

[Palmar]

So 2bird, got any other neighbours?

I'm happy to lynch, cautious about L-1, but if anyone thinks I shouldn't be cautious, tell me and I'll vote.

Just do it, it's not like we're gonna get any discussion or anything useful out of the day anyway

[Palmar]

Btw, once we hammer him, if the scummies finally decide to kill me tonight, lynch bvoigt tomorrow.

[Palmar]

vote: bvoigt

[Palmar]

why is this even up for discussion.

lynch bvoigt.

[Palmar]

Why is bvoigt scum?

because I said so

[Palmar]

wanna vote for bvoigt now?

[Palmar]

ok scumhunter go or we're lynching you.

[Palmar]

okay, weirdbeard claim

[Palmar]

I'm really starting to understand where the "terrible town" stigma comes from with Mafiascum. With a guilty on Johman for all of day 2, you played your cards in one of the worst possible manner. It's so bad that I'm almost considering just not believing your claim and lynching you.

Remember, you have a goddamn GUILTY on someone who is playing so scummy that it's hardly even needed, why the fuck didn't you push harder for his lynch? Your post with the vote on him was "I'll place my vote here, pending re-reading". What kinda town play is that? What the hell does that mean? And don't give me some bullshit excuse about you not caring because you could shoot him anyway, because unless you have the IQ of a fucking rock, you should be able to understand why it's important to get the lynch. You already had staunch support for a Johman lynch from me, all you had to do was to build a case and push it.

I have been a pain in the ass this game because of people doing terrible shit, I've been trying to get people to do the right thing for so long and I just get ignored because of a serious head-in-ass syndrome in this game. I have literally never seen such bad play from town before.

And now I'm once again in a retarded situation because of townies being terrible, this time it's Weirdbeard starring as the village idiot, with a ridiculous claim considering his earlier play.

So do I go with:

a) Weirdbeard is just terrible, and we lynch one of Draken, Beck and Scumhunter.

or

b) Weirdbeard is not terrible, and we actually have 4 scum. Because as scum WB has nothing to gain from defending bvoigt unless they're teammates.

Remember, for some reason WB was waiting for scumhunter's claim, which is stupid because it's not like WB had any info on scumhunter, another example of either terrible or scum.

bbl

[Palmar]

fuck off draken, stop being terrible.

If I was scum don't ya think I'd have kept my vote on Johman in case he ever flipped. You're moron or scum if you still don't realize I'm town.

[Palmar]

I didn't out my guilty because I wanted to have my tracker investigation free for use. Pretty simple explanation really.

I'm pretty damn sure there's only 1 scum left, and probably no SK. With only a bodyguard, JOAT and 1-shot vig, town's pretty weak in the PR department for this game. Also, do you genuinely find it likely that town ONLY had a bodyguard and 1-shot vig? That's even weaker.

So, assuming you're not lying your ass off, from now on you actively push people you know are guilty.

Goddamnit, aren't people supposed to learn how to play in the newbie section.

@mods:

Assuming this situation:

1 mafia remaining: Godfather
Godfather kills someone, gets tracked.

What result will the tracker get?

[Palmar]

Fuck it I've made up my mind.

Beck is probably town, for one he tried to get Johman replaced on day 1, and he has also been a bit clueless townielike throughout the game

Weirdbeard claimed a role that makes no sense for him to claim as scum, it kinda fits, but would also mean RBD didn't shoot anyone n2? That's weird, but assuming bvoigt isn't scum either and thus cleared by wb's claim.

This leaves Scumhunter and Draken

Scumhunter has been pretty useless throughout the game, he's thrown around a few bad reads, and he really pushed the idea johman and 2b1s couldn't be scum together... strange. But he also suggested Johman gets vigged.

Draken is another strange one, very hard to read, but he did on multiple occasions try to get 2b1s lynched. I need to read better over all their posts to figure it out.

[Palmar]

And I'm retracting making up my mind.

Please explain who is the scum among the remaining people.

[Palmar]

I'm inclined to agree with Scumhunter, mostly because I'm not sure how much of a risk-taker he is, but generally advocating a vigilante shot on a teammate is a bad strategy as mafia. And when it's done, it's usually done in the form of including the fellow mafia in a list of good vigilante targets, instead of calling directly for a vigi shot on the teammate.

I need to re-read Draken at least once more, but I agree that Beck is unlikely to be scum

[Palmar]

Palmar my dear fellow, you've ignored my question again. Keep this up and it wont look good for you.

You're either:

a) Terrible

or

b) Scum

Which makes anything you say irrelevant.

[Palmar]

hmmm... This really is a tough one because very few townies have been making the right calls.

Vote Draken

Let's investigate him with a guillotine.

[Palmar]

I think this OMGUS vote confirms Draken as the last scum. Any reasonable town would understand that they are under suspicion, and try to convince town to lynch who they think is scum based on actual reasoning. But Draken is just attacking me because I refuse to answer his questions, which shouldn't really need answering at all. Just think about it this way.

Is there any way, any possible way, that someone is bad enough at this game that he thought Johman was town and thinks I am scum right now?

I don't think there is, I can't imagine anyone being that wrong in such an obvious situation, and Occam's Razor says it's usually the simplest answer that explains the puzzle. The simple answer is that Draken isn't bad, he's just scum. That would explain his strange reads, his scummy posting (remember, he was under fire on day 1). And his general unwillingness to use logic instead of policies to try and achieve a lynch even this late in the game.

[Palmar]

Wasn't exactly OMGUS I'd say.
You haven't exactly given me any reason why I shouldn't suspect you for this. No you've just 'yelled' at me for being a bad player.
Why not answer?

I don't even know what I'm supposed to be answering? Why I moved my vote to Deltawave? I had no idea the current vote-count, and people I assumed to be experienced in the rules at this site said that his claim was impossible in the setup. No reason not to lynch him at that point.

Seriously Draken, if you're town, you should be able to deduce that yourself. If you are town I really hope you go back and re-read this entire game with a focus on yourself, so you can be less of a liability on your team than you're being this game. I'm not yelling at you that you're bad, I'm just mentioning something completely fair.

You have two main obligations as town in a game of mafia.

a) Establish your innocence (something you've clearly failed at)
b) Call out and vote for scum (something you've also clearly failed at)

And given how transparent the situation regarding me and johman has been ever since day 2, I cannot believe that you were unable to see through it if you were thinking with a straight head. However, it lines perfectly up with mafia goals to be unable to see this. Notice that almost everyone that isn't you is pretty sure I'm innocent, because that's the logical way of approaching my play. Unlike you, I've done a good job establishing my innocence and calling out scum.

I'm not saying you're bad, I'm just proving that you're scum.

[Palmar]

Of course I'm not confirmed, only way to confirm me is to kill me.

Just remember that it's almost always the simple explanation that's the correct explanation.

[Palmar]

The simple explanation is that scumhunter actually posted johman as a sole vigilante target. He has also made several good calls throughout the game, and while just like almost everyone else in this game he's been as much a hinderance as help, I am more confident with killing Draken. Especially after draken's few last posts.

[Palmar]

beck/bvoigt/weirdbeard, we're lynching Draken today, that's it.

Let's hammer him. The case is there, his response is incredibly scummy and he needs to die.

[Palmar]

I see...
Thankyou for answering, of course that was the obvious answer... But that doesn't clear any suspicion about the event.
Town should at least

read the thread

before rushing into things like that.
UNVOTE:

a)I think we all saw how good I am at showing my innocence Day 1.
b)I wouldn't have 'clearly' failed at that until whomever I'm voting is lynched.

So I'm either 'that bad' or scum. If I'm town, I'm 'that bad' because I'm 1 vote from being lynched. Surely I'd be pretty bad scum too for exactly the same reason?
Your reason for lynching me seems to be because I'm a

bad

player. It really gives no distinction between me being

bad

town or bad

scum

, 50-50, yet you're willing to lynch me over it?

ScumHunter, now it's your turn to be asked an inane question.
Why do you keep insisting that Weird claim the extra part of his role that he says he doesn't have?
Rolefishing? Creating a WIFOM situation for tomorrow (a real one, not one that people 'say' is WIFOM)?

You actually did kinda ok if you're scum, better than your teammates at least.

[Palmar]

Hammer any time now please.

[Palmar]

This is getting boring, hammer that guy already.

[Palmar]

If he's town he probably should stop playing mafia.

[Palmar]

I don't wanna play anymore.

Words can't express how angry I am at Draken. He must be the dumbest person to ever walk this earth, it's surprising he can write and read.

[Palmar]

ok then.

Vote: Weirdbeard

Reasons:

a) I don't care if I win anymore, I just want to punish people who are bad.

b) Weirdbeard has a guilty claim on Johman on day 2, yet he doesn't do jack shit about it

c) I think RBD shot Johman, not WB.

So, with all the evidence on the table, I have concluded that Weirdbeard is actually terrible at mafia, and thus he must be lynched.

[Palmar]

No he's bad, and there's a reason enough to believe he's scum.

either we punish a dumbass, or we lynch scum. ezpz. win/win

[Palmar]

So you don't beleive his claim?

You think 1 shot vig and bodyguard/watcher only is enough vs 3 mafia?

You sott if have to beleive his claim or you are actually a PR that you kept hidden.

I think scumhunter is scum, not weird.

I think 1shot vigilante and bodyguard/watcher is borderline overpowered in a 13 man game with 3 mafia. But as you can maybe tell, I'm used to playing with better towns.

[Palmar]

I still think you're clear. It's sad we wasted 2 days on stupid shit, because we would've had more time before lylo if people just listened to me in the first place.

If you're scum then my hat goes off to you for a game well played.

Which leaves WB and Scumhunter, so it's basically lylo, between the two.

I wanna see what scumhunter has to say. I have no interest in what WB has to say because on him it's all about the claim. It's just a matter of trying to figure out if he's terrible or scum.

[Palmar]

The thing is.

WB claims an incorrect play.

Scumhunter hasn't actually done anything particularly bad.

If we don't lynch WB we're at best rewarding terrible play, and at worst losing because we're too stubborn to punish people for playing badly.

[Palmar]

fuck it then

Vote scumhunter

[Palmar]

Palmar, what has been "so bad" about weird's play really?

On day 2, weirdbeard has confirmed scum from his check. I am trying to get that scum lynched.

Read wb's posts through day 2.

It's incorrect play, assuming he's town. He should have joined in and campaigned with me for the death of Johman. It's even more stupid that Draken somehow protecting Johman on day 2, and then accusing me of being scum on day 3, which I admit, was also terrible.

[Palmar]

Because beck's play, despite however bad it may have been at times, he has voted for countless townies, back on day 1 he said something like "I'm gonna vote this townie, but 2b1s is not off the hook", which I found really weird at the time, and now that we know 2b1s is scum, is actually bad.

And yet, given that, he has done the least retarded things of you all.

[Palmar]

I like that plan, it would be fittingly dumb to end this game.

[Palmar]

I have no interest in discussing it further.

[Palmar]

Yes, our chances of actually winning this game got destroyed by a terrible day 1 lynch, and some asshole with a guilty check who didn't push his reads day 2.

Now we're basically left up to chance on who to kill, because aside from myself, you three have all derped on your early game reads.

that votecount is wrong btw, I already voted scumhunter, but I can do it again if missing the unvote is important.

Unvote: weirdbeard
Vote: Scumhunter

Interesting fact: Even if we win by killing scumhunter, we're still doing the wrong play. The only logical play is to kill WB because his claim doesn't fit. But then again, the only logical thing was to kill Draken because it's impossible to be so bad, yet he was.

Beck is basically cheating anyway, he asked the mod to replace Johman on day 1, something that should have been done through PMs. I guess it's not against this site's rules. Ignoring his alignment (which could well be scum, if I hadn't witnessed a bunch of people doing it, I wouldn't think any townie should be dumb enough to go after TSG and unvoting 2b1s on day 1), it's basically using the mods to influence people's reads on him. Possibly scum, but hey, let's just roll with it.

[Palmar]

Weird, I'm on my phone. Can you tell me what your abilities were and who you used them on?

Not sure I can find it on my phone right now.

Why did you want to know this. I don't see how that's relevant at all if you think I'm scum...

-"Blatant Buddying": I've explained how this makes plenty of sense as town. Town buddy town all the time. It's called gathering trust and forming a town alliance. I've also explained how my "buddying" to you was for the purpose of reinforcing the tone of my posts.
-"Lack of scumhunting": I disagree. I was unsure of myself day 1, but since I've been doing my best to find scum.
-"Process of elimination": Sure. I don't see how you have eliminated Palmar as a suspect though.

I disagree that Palmar deserves the win as scum. Scum never deserve to win unless town lets them.

@Beck/Palmar, one of you is town and terribly wrong about me. One of you needs to wake the fuck up before we lose this game.

That would be me then.

I'll gladly take this town down with me.

[Palmar]

Do you even care which one of you convince scumhunter?

When you're the suspect in lylo, the worst possible play as scum or town, is to attempt to keep both options open. You sit down, and decide on one of the other possibilities and build a case. Now you're just coming across as desperately trying to convince one of us, which is incorrect play no matter your alignment. I don't care if you're scum, but I hate you if you're town.

[Palmar]

I'm glad scumhunter took my advice and settled on one of us to convince.

I'm also glad you decided I was gonna be your target of choice, means I don't have to deal with the headache.

I have popcorn, let's see what happens.

[Palmar]

No, as I said, if we lynch you I'm perfectly happy with the result, no matter what it is.

If Beck is the scum, I will not care as I consider his post on day 1 about asking for a replacement cheating.
If WB is the scum, I don't care, because he should have been autolynched for making the wrong play, as I have stated numerous times.

So, that leaves you!

[Palmar]

Btw, Draken still should have been lynched, for his reads being terribly wrong.

[Palmar]

Scumhunter, you made an incorrect play by attempting to keep both your options open. Additionally, you're making an incorrect play by somehow deducing that I am scum despite being probably the most pro-town player in the game.

So, I'm fine with lynching you regardless of your alignment, I already explained that because more than 1 townie have made incorrect plays in lylo, the game is very hard to play. But you've just made two additional incorrect plays on the last day. So I don't actually care.

[Palmar]

I don't need any arguments. The fact you're incorrectly accusing me of being scum is enough.

[Palmar]

It should be painfully obivous, pro-tip: The people who try to kill mafia tend to not be mafia.

[Palmar]

oh look, it's captain obvious.

[Palmar]

It's incredibly frustrating to be lynched as town, but even more so by a player who bitches the entire game about how "bad" town is, insults all of us, presents no case on lylo, refuses to give reasoning, demonstrates clear ability to think logically early in the game, even gives multiple reasons for why I'm town earlier, ignores all of those now and votes me without giving reasoning and 2 not just 1 townies completely ignore it and lynch me anyways. I mean its fucking bullshit really if you can't see that. Voting scum does not equate to auto town credit (or at least it shouldn't). It's the thought process about people's votes that show their alignment. Palmar is not a moron. He's not an agitated bad townie. He has made some really good posts and cases earlier on.

Didn't you just say I'm scum?

If so, that's actually incompatible with your me "thinking logically" and "make some really good posts". Because none of the posts I've made are worth anything if I already knew their alignment, and none of the posts I've made can be good if I'm scum. So either I have been thinking logically and made some really good posts, or I've been bussing my ass off the entire game. It can't be both.

You can thank me later if you actually learn and don't fuck up like that again.

[Palmar]

Palmar, any response to the points raised on you?

No not really.

[Palmar]

I've already said that lynching me would be fittingly dumb to end the game.

Even if we can somehow eek out a win this game, we don't deserve it.