Mini 1276 - Village for 13 - Over!!

[camn]

Hi guys!

So I am a little bit VLA for this week, but I can check in occasionally.
FTR: self-voting in the RVS is scummy. Parama said why- it avoids accountability, which is scum motivated.
Second: Norman's reaction is scummy.
Third: Norman's scumclaim, if real, is not really any worse than a scum self-hammer, IMO

That all said, I would be happy to hammer that slot before a replacement comes and starts with 'meow meow I don't know it was lols!'.
However, I only skimmed the first few pages... So im gonna let it ride for now.
Consider me VLA till friday- I still love the Beastie Boys.

[camn]

Hi again everyone.
Thought I would drop in and say a couple things.

First off: everyone with a 2011 join date- you guys need to start thinking twice as long before you post. The level of crapposting is out of control. No offense intended. Just give your posts more thought. This isn't a race.

Second: I need the answer to this question: why was Norman replaced? Parama- if you are around your answer is especially interesting to me.

Third: sorry again about the VLA. I am reading, but consistently 5 pages behind, which is very atypical for me. Expect me to crush you with awesomeness when I return. I would appreciate no lynches until then.

[camn]

Parama.. Let's be precise here: none of those things are force-replaceable.. I think we have both done all those at one time or another.
What rule did he break?

[camn]

Ok, boys and girls, lets get started.

First off, I have a lot of small thoughts regarding things in this game, and I wish I had been here to deal with them all at the time, but I wasn't so I will let most of them go until later. Do not be surprised if I jusp backwards from time to time.

2nd: scum? I am thinking

Screaming Hawk

and

Gen_wolf

right now.
Hawks little comment about Hydras out of the gate has been bothering me. He has a month of play under his belt, yet feels the need to throw that out there.. why?
Wolf just gives me a disingenuous feeling. Not much to go on yet.. but there it is. His attacks on enomis (who I have a solid townread on) seem off, andhe just now said "I am willing to bus"...... Hmm.
I think Parama is unreadable Day 1.. but I am finding myself agreeing with most of his commentary.

I am unwilling to lynch

Spartan

(on newb grounds), as well as

Elmo

and

enomis

on townie grounds, and

Hiraki

and

Parama

on keeper grounds.

The rest are null for now, need reconsideration soon.

3rd.. I am still not satisfied with the Norman-->Whiskers situation. I have some misgivings, and I wish to tackle them in order.

Tell me again: why was Norman replaced?

Do YOU know, Whiskers?

Also,

Hiraki:

why did you defend Normal in the RVS again? I need to hear it out loud.

Oh and for now:

VOTE: SCREAMING HAWK

[camn]

EBWOP.. I accidentally attributed Hawks play this page to WOLF right there.

His attacks on enomis (who I have a solid townread on) seem off, andhe just now said "I am willing to bus"...... Hmm.

should have been in the Screaming hawk paragraph. sorry!

[camn]

OK.. since you are here, can you help me out with the reason he was force-replaced?

He WAS forced, right?

[camn]

on the grounds that we need to

keep

them past day 1 unless we are REALLY sure they are scum, due to potential for strong play. And they are experienced enough NOT to actually give themselves away in a game this newb-heavy... so the odds of us hitting scum there are random at best.

An no, "trolling" is not an explanation. Unless we are saying he broke rule #15: "Have Fun"... which nobody gets force-replaced for.

[camn]

well, sweetie, >I< will be the judge of which details help me and which do not, thanks.

Is that the consensus? Norman was banned site-wide?

[camn]

Notice that camn has nothing more to say.

/yawn.

SO.. it maybe I was too optimistic.
I have some free time for a few days, so I was actually looking forward to a brisk game of mafia... but I won't waste time in a pissing contest with a bunch of newbs. Keep up the attitude, and expect my interest in this game to plummet.

[camn]

You ARE missing the part where it matters.

[camn]

OK, Parama..
What do you think about this Screaming hawk guy? He is giving me the tingles.
FOr instance: his ISO 0 and 1 re: you:

... Also provides a good enough reason to vote you here.
VOTE: Parama

...
Parama seems like a cool dude.

I, as you might know, dont really believe that there is anything "random" about RVS votes. So what is he on about with you?
Then he proceeds to criticize you for 'coaching' (54) while holding a vote on Norman.
What's the deal with that?
Also.. why ISNT he voting enomis? I get a real dancing-around vibe from his posts. They seem to say a lot, but end up saying nothing.
Plus... I mentioned it already... but >IS< this a just a joke?

Someone push something, I'm open to bus

post:edit
@ DonJohn.
I respectfully refuse. Things will become apparent in time.
While you are here, though.. are YOU satisfied with the explanation for Norman's replacement?

And .. lets see what shakes out:

UNVOTE
VOTE VISCERA LINK

[camn]

@DJ, Although I do apologize for being a little behind, I also disagree that there is nothing to be learned there. In fact, I will go so far as to say that

that replacement

, and more importantly .. the other players' reactions (and LACK of reactions) to it...

they will prove very telling later in the game.

The fact that I want people's perceptions of the event laid out in B&W right now, day one, might seem irrelevant NOW.. but I am counting on it later. So again, I disagree. It may be 'plenty of info' for YOU.. but it is not for me.
I can see why Whiskers wants the whole thing to JUST GO AWAY... but I am having a problem seeing why YOU want that.

IN other news: I agree SO much that this is fishy:

WEEEEEEEE!!! Hiraki bitches that 'us newbies produce no reactions that are useful' yet he's using our RVS reactions as evidence against us. Poorly. Contradictions abound

.

Those two things have little to do with each other, and this style of defense is no defense at all.
In fact, when you put it that way, it actually supports Hiraki's internal consistency. He, as stated, relies on RVS-info. As stated, people are not giving good info. This, as YOU state, his effectiveness is lessened, presumably due to his reliance on RVS info (which is kind of all you get Day one.)
I am rather unhappy with this so-called "hydra". If you guys aren't even on the same page INTERNALLY, then I don't know how you are going to be able to keep up EXTERNALLY, right? I await this catch-up post.
Is it fair to ask how you guys are communicating out-of-game? If you are?

[camn]

ps Long Live Parama's regular Avatar!

[camn]

/yawn.

I still support a Viscera lynch. I am not impressed with the defense. HOWEVER.. I am not overwhelmed with scum-vibes either. I hate to waffle... but I would also support a ScreamingHawk or GenWolf lynch.. which ironically aligns my reads with Viscera. The enemy of my enemy?

Hmm.

[camn]

...
Stop bitching and do something. ....

Camn, do you think VL is mafia?

Could be.
I think I pretty accurately summed up my VL stance just a couple posts ago.
You must have read that post, since you pretty much just re-stated it back to me... so maybe I am not understanding your question.

Do I think VL deserves rope?

Yes

.
Am I overwhelmed that they are the optimal play today?

No

.
Do I totally support bandwagoning, brinksmanship, and quicklynching for information-gathering purposes?

Oh Yes.

There is a lot more to this game then "lynchmafiagogogo." But that is a popular playstyle-expectation, which leads to a lot of scum victories,

IMO

.

Mafia discussion aside, your ongoing commentary about how I need to play - that I should focus on this or that issue.. that I should "Stop bitching and do something"... it's all irrelevant, and not pro-town in any way. Believe it or not, I actually do have a TINY spark of knowing-what-I-am-doing, and I

don't

actually need your advice on how to play.
I, of course, welcome your argument that what I am writing is revealing of SCUM MOTIVATION.. but so far you are not doing that. So please, if you love the true townies of this small village, give it a rest

[camn]

@ VisceraLink
Your "defense" reeks of obstructionist scum-posturing.
Like this, for instance:

I'm not sure what information you could gather from our lynch as town. I'm currently not sure there are any scum on our wagon.

EVERY lynch gives info.
EVERY >wagon< gives info. Hell, every VOTE gives info. Its better with flips, but even without it is there.
Besides, that little bit of mine wasn't even addressed to you.
So you mentioning it.. it is just you going through a list and making commentary, so as to look like you are worth keeping around. It is noise, not signal, and it is all quite unimpressive. Although, I will admit.. the pure BULK of it could be intimidating for some players.

Thats' all the explanation you will get from me. Because I try not to argue with scum.
Also.. I >>>AM<<< determining the optimal dayone play.
I am doing it right now.. . the results simply aren't in yet. You young boys are all so over-eager! el simo isn't even in the game yet!

@Draken

: What do you think of Spartan? Do you think the vote hopping is too much? Is it all newb-nerves?

[camn]

Why, whiskers? Because I don't try to convince a player that they are scum? Is that why? I have found that it very rarely works. You have to convince everyone ELSE.

Draken: do you think VL is soft-claiming? I have gotten a whiff of that twice, but I am not sure if it is real or not.
And Whiskers, since you are here: what do you think about VL appealing to a meta-defense?

And Viscera: I am not going to go into things with you.
You are typing too quickly and you miss meaning, which makes engaging you even more of a waste of time than usual.
However "deliberate" you think you are.. you miss things with this diarrhea of posts. No matter how much you say it is signal, it's not.. and I try not to add to giant quote-walls full of nothing.
I will, however, due to my overriding dedication to the game, answer your direct questions.:

Explain, please.

This was an request to explain why you "could be" scum. Everyone could be. Simple as that.

Once more, I'll request an explanation.

This is in re: to you "deserving the rope". I think you are partners with Screaming Hawk, and your flip would help me decide. Plus your Hydra-ness has been frustrating. Both make you an acceptable Day 1 Lynch.

And that is... all the actual questions you have asked me, save one, where you asked what I am NOT impressed by.. Which strikes to the ESSENCE of why I am unimpressed. There is no back and forth. No

questioning

. No actual investigation into motivation and perception...Just aggressive arguing, like:
You are.
Am not. You are.
Am not.
Which does not impress me. It is totally consistent with scum, and the fact that you admit you were "playing video games" until you got wagoned.. and now you promise to "Actually play"? also unimpressive.


--------------------PREVIEW EDIT----------
That was the hammer?

[camn]

I'll count too.

..


..

So it is!
Good.
Day 1 scumlynches tend to help our chances.

Last Words, Link? Who are your partners?

[camn]

/blinks eyes
Good morning! Christ I am hung over. Wheres my flip??
Oh yeah, it was an awesome gambit, blown by a newb who failed to follow my earlier advice about thinking THEN posting Meh. Such is life.

Hiraki, I am going to agree with Link here, and disagree with you. I think VE's reactions were authentic, and he has townslipped.

Town. GG scum.

In the context of his anger, I think the "GG scum" is bitter, and accusatory. This is consistent with his next few posts.

Sorry, Link is out. All you get is spiteful, puerile VE who isn't giving you shit. SOWWY! Not even a claim. Wait for flip.

Here we see that he really is pissed, but HERE:

We'll find out soon enough. Frankly, I don't give a shit about my faction in this game. Link spent ALL day working on cleaning up MY mess, and did a damn fine job of it. His reasoning was logical, he was town as fuck.

You want my reads? Anyone who wasn't convinced by Link's performance yesterday is either scum or fucking assholes who join games only to belittle others and stroke their e-peen when they get them lynched. Maybe both.

I think is the real townclaim. I think he is telling the truth that he thinks his so-called lynch was scum-driven, which is not something scum generally think, given one scumteam.. (which we have no reason to doubt at this time.)

Thus:

UNVOTE

The whole thing, IMO, puts serious townpoints on

Hiraki

, obv,

Par

and

Whiskers

for playing along, and even

Spartan

for blowing it.

Nobody else really was around, so we dont get much info there.. though Drakens post is interesting.

DRAKEN-

Were you wacthing that whole gambit, or did you come in after it was blown?

Hmm. Looking at the rest of the playerlist.. we have a lot of pending promises from some of the less active players. Given holiday weekend, I am ok with giving them some time.

[camn]

Well, then, lets keep everyone else out of it then.
Do you think it HARD-clears

Hiraki

?

I think, given a Viscera TOWN flip, Hiraki is hard-cleared for even attempting this gambit.
Obv, given a Viscera SCUM-flip, then bussing is an option, but I think Viscera-town, so that doesn't apply at this time.

thoughts?

[camn]

Hmm. So

not

hard-cleared then.
I am putting him in my SOFT-cleared pile for a while. I disagree with your likelihood analysis. I really VERY RARELY see townies actually claim scum. But I havn't really played that many games. Additionally, bussing aside, I see very little actual scum motivation for Hiraki pulling this.

I do agree that Hiraki persisting with his push on Viscera is flawed.

There is enough drama with Hikari and VL for scum to sit on the side and do nothing and that is exactly what they are doing.

Some would say you fit into this box quite nicely... but I agree. I think we have a lurker-scum problem. Which generally can be righted by a nice lurkerlynch.

VOTE: DRAKEN

[camn]

Draken

: can you explain how Hiraki-scum would have attempted this recent play? And can you do it

without

considering a townie claiming scum? (since that is a nonstarter, IMO.)

[camn]

Reason it out for me.
Show me what he was thinking.
Speculate for me on his mindset.. his goals. How he thought it would play out?

[camn]

OK.. lets be specific here.. DO WHAT for fun? What was he thinking would happen?
Like, fill inthe blank in Hiraki's mind:
" ha ha, I say its the hammer.. then VE ___________________ , and THEN, awesomely, _________________ "

[camn]

There is one way I can see it making sense.... but I would like your opinion!

[camn]

Hiraki.. I disagree with your read. And I am sure you know I won't be bullied I see frustrated Town at being Lynched despite what he perceived as decent play on the part of his partner.
I propose we table VL for now. His softclaim will warrant him some consideration for the night-kill, which will solve everything.. or at minimum we will get a (fake) target from him if we run him up tomorrow.

Obv, I support a ScreamingHawk Lynch, as previously stated.

UNVOTE
VOTE SCREAMINGHAWK

Draken: I will come back to you. Get your mind right.

[camn]

@enomis and I think camn who mentioned my vote on Whiskers was out of place with my reads: I simply have not yet moved it off.

VOTE: Draken

There we go.

We could start here.
A quick ctrl-F shows you not even MENTIONING Draken before your vote.
Bussing or opportunism? I leave it to the town to decide.

Then there is the issue with your first 3 posts.

@Link: stop it.

[camn]

What's wrong with that? I felt it was a viable next step. Obviously I had no takers on my enomis read....

Dear town:

Screaminghawk is classic.
In defense of his Draken vote.. is there any continued insistence as to Draken's scumminess? No. Even a message that Draken's wagon is useful?
No.. just that is

"SEEMED VIABLE"

.
Of course, with a side-order of "Nobody was jumping on a handy mislynch over here so I thought I would sheep a townie...."

Of course.. bussing vs. opportunism is still the question...

And your first 3 posts, Hawk? No comment on that?

[camn]

My first three were RVS. A random vote for Parama, a player I've never had any experience with. Couple posts later say 'he's a cool dude' i.e. funny guy. Third post: I dislike hydras because they are difficult to read. I can't explain these any further because there really isn't anything more to them. I don't take RVS very seriously.

Dear true townies, lets see what >I< see:

By lynching all the townies.

Yay randomness. Also provides a good enough reason to vote you here.
VOTE: Parama

..
Parama seems like a cool dude.

hmm. In contrast to just now claiming Param's was a "Random" vote.. he actually does provide a reason. (i know, not much of one.. but

not random

)
In his VERY NEXT POST, he is praising Parama.
What do I see? He wants to put a vote down (prudent) but doesn't want to draw any OMGUS-pressure from Par (prudent).
Could a townie do this? Sure.. .but it implies he thinks Parama is town, even in these early posts, and capable of townie fury....which equals Hawk-Scum.
(as a side note, this same kind of equivocal voting continues in ISO 4, and I have already mentioned the baseless Draken Bote- which accounts for ALL of Hawks votes)

And the Hydra-hate?
May I present THIS POSTfor your consideration. It is a VERY camn-style player-by-player in which Hawk also hates Hydras. It is posted 2 weeks after Hawks join date. He notably never mentions the WORD "Hydra" in either of his previous games (according to ctrl-F).. and he replaced out and was D1 Lynched in those games.. so I fail to see the relevance. I initially (pre-meta check) figured that Hawk has fabricated this hydra-bias as a justification for meaningless votes and hopefully a mislynch. (Which obv=scum) However, I am reconsidering that, since he was actually town in the above mentioned game.. . so now I wonder what the real reason is.

ScreamingHawk

: are you and Alt? Your wiki says otherwise. It says you are 'very green' so I imagine no real off-site gametime....soooo , where did you learn this hydra-hate?

[camn]

What the hell happened last page? Is that serious?Does that mean Whiskers is dead?

...

...

parama.. I don't know if I can handle this much longer.

[camn]

OK people... this Day has gone on too long. We have had enough talk, I thirst for blood.
From what I can tell, this is our vote count:

Draken (2) - Whiskers, Screaming_Hawk
Viscera Link (2) - Hiraki, don_johnson,
Spartan_N30 (2) - Elmo_TeH_AzN, Gen_Wolf
Screaming Hawk (4) - enomis, Parama, camn, el simo
Gen_Wolf (1) - Viscrea Link
Elmo_TeH_AzN (1) - Spartan_N30

OBVIOUSLY, the Hawk wagon is the most

righteous

,

town-filled

wagon ever to see the light of day. Lets run him up. Now.

Whiskers

: you are voting with known scum. scoot on over

Hiraki

: V-Link wont work. Jump on.

That will put us at L-1, and then I propose we beat a confession and a scumteam reveal out of this newb.

I am going shopping. when I get back I pray someone will have gotten the rope and scaffold prepared.