Minvitational Game 2

[Antrax]

I think this night confirms two things:
a) Werebear was telling the truth.
b) The "certificate of township" is just a joke. Anyone who dies is on the town's side has one. UNLESS there's a cult? So Soothsayer tore it up when he joined it?
As for a vote, I still need to recollect my thoughts, too much time has passed IRL, I'm all confused now.
Antrax

[Antrax]

I've re-read the thread files, and I've come up with these nuggets of wisdom:
1) I sort of suspect mith, because of the whole pissing-me-off deal, and that crap arguement about how I'm usually wrong in day 1. Then again, it was day 1, and apparently, I was wrong
2) Another sort of suspicious person is IS, who was also late on the bandwagon for Werebear (fourth vote), and his reluctance to argue with me after I voted him might indicate he's afraid of me figuring him out again. Blah blah, yeah yeah, I suck, I never figure people out, I'm lucky, yadda yadda, I'll save ya'll the 10-page arguement with me about this.
3) The third suspicious person is DP, who made a whopping total of 3 posts to this game, two of them are vote/unvote the same person, consecutively. I know he's online a lot, what is he hiding?

The reason I'm not voting for any of them, is that I've just realised that if this game is like the last one, ie 3 mafia, we're in everybody's favourite land -- lynch-or-lose. So, I'm reluctant to vote just yet.
Your thoughts?
Antrax

[Antrax]

Re: Soothsayer being a doctor, my theory is that maybe all the innocnents in this town have one, and they maybe tear it up when the join the cult, if it exists. But I'm really just speculating a lot here. As for the cop coming out, if there's three mafia left it's crucial he comes out now, or we might lose right away (unless we vote nolynch and bet on the mafia not getting him?). But that's all assuming the setup is identical to the one last game.
DP, I actually only scanned to see your name, because I had this memory that you didn't do anything this game. Basically, you went to the trip, did nothing, came back, voted Quailman. Then you voted mole, unvoted mole. Helpful!
Antrax

[Antrax]

Have fun. It was an honest mistake, I hate going back on the archives pages, they look funny.
So anyhow, you really have very little other than my honest mistake, and the fact you apparently like voting before you think. Second occurence, in this very game. You do realise it's possible that suddenly all the mafia jump your wagon and it's game over for us? It's not definite, but it's nice you're willing to take such a risk for all of us.
Because I'm not hasty like yourself, I'll not give the mafia an easy win if you're just stupid and not evil, but you definitely earned yourself my

**** FINGER OF SUSPICION ****

.
Antrax

[Antrax]

Damn, mith is on to my evil plan. I call it "being cautious", and it benefits my evil plans because, uh, you see, and, that. There.
Antrax

[Antrax]

* puts Antrax on ignore for the rest of the game *

Nice retort.
Antrax

[Antrax]

mith, I've been thinking about Werebear, and the only case where he's being clever is if he's actually a serial killer, and was somehow blocked by the doc on night 1. Personally, I find it unlikely.
Another note, ~pokes mole~. I see you online all the time, but you haven't posted since the thread crash. What's up with that?
Antrax

[Antrax]

**** HUGE FINGERS OF SUSPICION ****

fork both mith and DP. With 2 votes, if you two are innocent, you might've just given the mafia the win. At least one of them is mafia, if not both. Do not be deceived by the evil duo! If only one of them is mafia, and another innocent is tempted to vote for me, the other two mafia can finish the job! Don't let this game end in such a stupid way.

vote: cop, come out. Preferably clear me, in the process

Antrax

[Antrax]

Oh, so it's fine risking the game for that. I'm convinced. What's the BENEFIT of taking this chance? And who gave you permission to take that risk for all of us?
Antrax

[Antrax]

1. Yesterday, he was incredibly adamant about lynching Quailman. He wanted Were to shoot him if he didn't get lynched, and used all sorts of Crap Logic (he was trying to lure the cop out?) to get him lynched, despite Quailman acting nothing like he does when he is scum.

No, THIS is "Crap Logic". I showed everyone why I think Quailman is mafia. They found it convincing. I was wrong. So were they. So?

Ok, fine, townies aren't always right, I'll be the first to agree with that. But take responsibility for your actions. You lynched Quailman. It is *not* his fault that you did so. This flippant attitude alone would earn you my vote.

You need to take your own advice.

Every single person who voted for Quailman did it out of his own free will

. The fact I was the one who tried to persuade people into joining it is 100% irrelevant. If I'm wrong, nobody's twisting your arm to follow me. You didn't follow, 5 people did, bam, he's dead. What exactly is your new, preposterous strategy supposed to achieve? People will never vote for anyone, because a vindictive mith will jump on them the next day?

3. Seems pretty paranoid that someone is going to get him lynched as well. Moreso that usual. *~shrug~*

Loaded language, load of crap, yadda yadda, move on.

4. Also seemed... not in a rush exactly, but close to it, to get the first day over with. But now, when he gets a couple votes, it's panic time! Oh no! There might be 3 Mafia, it's lynch or lose blah blah. Only reason it *might* be lynch or lose is because you were wrong yesterday. Besides, even if we lynch inncorrectly, Werebear can still save us by killing a Mafia tonight (he should kill tonight anyway).

And again, mith feels he has the right to endanger the entire game. Yeah, we might lynch a mafia today. Or Werebear might shoot a mafia tonight. Or there might be just two mafia. SO WHAT? What does it benefit us to play by these nice scenarios and risk an immediate loss, when the rational move is to assume the worst case scenario, and play cautiously?

6. Antrax usually doesn't miss obvious stuff like this, or who DP voted for yesterday, etc.

The person for whom he voted yesterday was completely irrelevant to my case, which was "hi, DP's lurkming". So, I didn't bother to go back and double check it. I've made worse mistakes in the past (anyone remember Mafia 45?), so don't try to talk to my arrogance. I'm not perfect, I'm just good.

vote: mith

why? Because he's endangering the town. Because I believe at least one of my current voters is scum. Because his case against me is wrong on many points. Because he seems keen on playing a game of chance, instead of mafia.
This is like the pascal arguement. Sure, I may be wrong, there may be fewer than 3 mafia or werebear might shoot the voters or I could wake up and find out this was all a dream, and I'm actually a 16 year old Japanese girl serving someone in a masion; the question is, is your gain worth the risk? The answer is, no. If you want to accuse me, you don't need to vote for me to do so. Debate can go on without the votes to propel it forward. So, you're risking everything for 0 gain. If that's how a good guy behaves (not to mention a relatively rational one), then I apparently misunderstood the game since I started playing.
Antrax

[Antrax]

and several of us (most importantly to myself, me) thought your reasons were shaky, at best.

Yet, somehow, magically, failed to sway more voters your way. I wish I had your vision mith, it sure seems 20/20 to me.

I was saying *you* and the *people that voted for Quailman* should take responsibility

All hail mith and his 6-sided vote! Damn, games get easy when you're in them.

I think your use of the word loaded has become loaded. Seriously, wth? I think you're paranoid. You don't want to address it, you want to hide behind the word "loaded", suit yourself.

The accusation "you are paranoid" has no substance; if you want a serious response, please show where and when I act in that "paranoid" way. Don't they teach you debate at schools?

What risk? You have two frickin' votes, you need 5. There is *no way* the Mafia can jump quickly on your wagon without it being obvious who they are

if I am Mafia, you still wouldn't have enough votes!

You're obviously not getting this. It's like providing the 5th vote for Quailman. It's all very safe on paper, but there is some risk involved. You want me to make up scenarios? fine! Mafia lynch me, then the fabled mafia doc blocks Werebear, they shoot Werebear, win. Or, 2 mafia and an innocent lynch me, Werebear shoots the innocent, mafia win. Or, Mafia member uses his magical once-per-game duo vote, or mafia hypnotist, or bloody mafia prostitue. The point is simple. These scenarios do exist, as slim as they may be. And the one thing slimmer than the chance of them existing, is the absolutely NOTHING you benefit from voting me right now. So again, you risk THE GAME on a chance of 0.01%, for a gain of NOTHING with a chance of 99.99%. Do the math yourself, you're the labboy here.

Stop hiding behind this cautious nonsense and admit you just don't want to get lynched.

CASE CLOSED! Damn, I didn't realise I'm so transparent. OF COURSE I DON'T WANT TO GET LYNCEHD. Sheesh. How does that, in any way, make your hasty vote any better?

Again, you focus on one small part of my argument that you might be able to explain away.

No, you are. Seriously, you attacked my actions in the early day, I explained it really was an honest mistake. If that wasn't your intention, maybe you need to stop posting fluff and fix on your main points.

Yes, I do. Do you? I recall you being Mafia in that game.

And? It still was a mistake, not part of some cleverly-planned strategy.

I'm not playing to anything of yours

That's great, because I'm not scum. Seriously, your self testimony is worthless. What was that sentence supposed to contribute? You also denied trying to rouse me on day 1, doesn't mean you didn't try it.

By voting for you. I've seen this argument before. IS used to make long rants about how if someone lynched him, it would destroy the town (heck, the universe).

Yeah, becasue my mathematical arguement is as weak as IS' rants. Did you really think anyone in THIS game would buy this waste of time of an arguement?

What kind of reasoning is that? You think I'm scum because you think either DP or I must be??

I said before I think one of you is scum. Now I found him.

As you have so eloquently pointed out, by ignoring half the stuff I say and passing the rest off as loaded.

So THAT's why I quoted all your text and provided retorts! I WAS kind of wondering why I did that.

Will someone, other than Antrax-the-amazing, please explain to me how Antrax having 2 votes is even risking throwing the game away?

A good idea is to read what I write. I've explained it over and over again, both in this post and in the last.

There are 3 people, Antrax, IS, and Samadhi, who are playing this "I won't vote until Antrax says I can" strategy

Which, obviously, mafia could NEVER fake until the crucial moment! Damn, you're getting smarter by the minute. Any second now you'll need skull-expansion surgery, or something.

So, Antrax, you can argue all you want that I'm an idiot

(and you'd be wrong, if you took the time to actually think about the situation)

, but you aren't getting me lynched on it.

I love the bolded part. I call it "no explanation necessary". And I'm going for the "he's evil, get him" lynch, not the "he's stupid" one. Has to do with you being scum, etc.

In short, you are characterising me, claim I ignore the "important points" you raise, when those "important" points are defined as "the 2 points that seemed less central at the time so weren't replied to", refuse to accept a perfectly mathematical claim (for which you pretend not to see the repeatedly-made explanation), and in general trying to provoke me since day 1. If this is innocent behaviour, well then, call me wrong again, what can I say. Your case against me is "he led the Quailman bandwagon" and "he's using evil math tricks to show that maybe it's best to discuss BEFORE voting, much like they do in real life", puffed up by a lot of demagoguery and some plain lies or pretense of misunderstanding. Strong!
Antrax

[Antrax]

Yeah, few things are as fun as blatantly throwing a game. Miss Mafia 3 days, IS?
Antrax

[Antrax]

From the man who brought you "let's vote for Werebear I don't care if he's innocent or not", another analytical masterpiece:

Its not like youre guaranteed to be innocent just because you say so.

Coming soon, to a mafia game near you.
Antrax

[Antrax]

It always amazes me how even in this game, people have a hard time reading between the lines. mith scum, DP scum, okay, I can understand that. But IS?
Antrax

[Antrax]

Okay, so at least the nonscum elements in this town can be reasoned with. Don't be afraid to read mith's posts, despite being long and tedious.
Antrax

[Antrax]

I'll be gone for all of tomorrow and most of the day after, so the next time I'll be able to check the thread will be in about 40 hours. Please give me a grace period in case anyone actually brings up a substantial point against me, as opposed to a load of crap and vindictive voting (against which I can't defend, anyhow).
[off game comment]mith, please handle tomorrow's backup, I won't be able to, and with this site's luck, tomorrow is crash night [/ogc]
Antrax

[Antrax]

I haven't read mith's 10k+ post (just woke up, I'm sorry I'm late), but I've read the thread otherwise. I'm almost 100% convinced mith is scum; evertything he says is simply against the town. I just can't believe nobody's seeing it, but sometimes logical deduction starts with knowing "X is innocent", and people who aren't me don't know that for sure. So anyhow.
Samadhi, I'd vote DP as soon as you assure me that you're 100% completely and absolutely sure you've considered all possibilities derived from your role. Are you sure you can't be making error on account of being an insane cop, or misunderstanding your role, or any other weird mod tricks? If you're absolutely sure there's no way what's going to happen is we lynch a townie and Werebear shoots an insane cop, then I'll vote for DP. That's known as "voting for scum", or as mith for some reason thinks of it "voting to save my own skin". Obviously, mith is not playing the same game we all are.
As for Werebear kill, I'm all for killing mith, because I'm extremely convinced he's mafia. Again, before reading his 10k reply to me (I still have a user prune to do and some diplomacy emails to reply to, etc), but his shorter (read as: "not board-crashing") posts completely and utterly prove him to be mafia, in my opinion.
Antrax

[Antrax]

this is a reply to mith's 10k post. I've ignored some parts I think lost a lot of interest, because it's becoming impossible to read to other people. Quite handy if you're mafia, which I suspect is what he's aiming to achieve.

you have *two* votes, and you're acting as if I have committed the eighth deadly sin.

Which I've explained thoroughly.

Yesterday, you made some post about how you thought people would come after you for defending Werebear even though you hadn't, which seemed really bizzare to me since, at that point, you were perhaps the *least* convinced of Werebear's innocence

Here's that part of that post:

Okay, I will. Suppose Werebear is lying scum? Then people go back, "aha, Antrax defended him, die die die suck scum".

Only I haven't defended Werebear

, I've attacked a person I thought is mafia. I have no idea about Werebear's guilt or innocence, but I know we'll know tomorrow for sure.

You really need to stop counting on me being too lazy to reply to plain lies.

If you want a sure thing, play a different game.

Or maybe I'll play this one in the best way possible. Which you refuse to do, for some reason that no doubt has nothing to do with the fact your role email was simply "YUO = MAFIA" in bold H1 letters.

ignoring a lot of fluff (which he'll later refer to as "my real points you've ignored you evil scum", no doubt)...

This is just grasping at straws.

Hi IS. Your most favourite line as mafia now comes back, in mith form.

Well, yes, your point is simple. It's also incorrect.

Which is why, instead of rebutting it, you resort to flooding the thread. I see.

What I gain nothing from is sitting here for two days waiting for a Cop to come out, and then *not* doing anything when nothing happens.

There was more of this, but it's obvious mith is ignoring the amazing idea of discussing WITHOUT voting until the end. You know, just like EVERY SINGLE GAME IN REAL LIFE goes. What a wacky person that Antrax is.

The difference? One agreed with you.

There's that. Of course, there's also "nobody had a case against Werebear" and "Werebear had a sure way of proving his innocence if he survived the day", but naturally those don't matter, because you said so.

If you want to come at me for making a bad play, fine, but if you're only doing it because you, personally, don't agree with me, or because you're scum trying to save your hide, then it's not logic, just opinion.

Okay, so it's logic.

Okay, this is freaky, my mouse is acting up. Restarting browser, another post imminent.
Antrax

[Antrax]

So is your insistence that we shouldn't vote until you say we can a mistake, or a strategy to buy you time?

Again, mith cracks the case. You see, I'm trying to waste time, because uh, I'm the super mafia time bomb, so if can make the day last 2 weeks, I auto-win this game and the next two, as well. Mafia have nothing to gain from long days with a lot of discussion, so by trying to prolong the day, I've obviously convicted myself of being mafia. Logic!

Funny, coming from someone who ignores others posts (the reasoning behind voting for Werebear yesterday, for example).

Of course! You posted one word "random", and I should've realised straight away that as opposed to the dictionary meaning of the word, it actually stands for "Rotten Arbitary Neo-Doofus or Mafia", which means he's either very stupid, or mafia, and be convinced straight away.

I was hoping someone else would show an opinion on the matter.

A good start is to stop flooding the thread. People are discouraged from reading your posts (and mine, for that matter), because you make them too long and pretend you don't understand basic concepts in logic and math. It's not bad strategy if you're scum, which I suspect you are.

There is *very little* chance of you getting lynched quickly by the Mafia, and the fact that I think you are scum outweighs the whole Japanese ass-shooting probability.

And again, skillful play is thrown to the wind in face of the legendary mith, who is never wrong, and thus never needs take precaution.

I don't see anyone agreeing with you about me, at least.

I assure you people would realise you're scum if they bothered reading what you write. Apparently, few do. Has to do with your purposely flooding, or something.

You're just ranting about how stupid it is because it's you, not because I'm being hasty.

Lies. I've ranted against speed before. Speed cost the town games in the past. Remember alien mafia?

Yes, as scum. Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

And here's the real source of disagreement. I try to explain my motives for voting, to give people a chance to challenge them. You obviously use your magic skills to figure out who's mafia, and then just do anything to try to lynch them, even if it involves blatant lying. Okay. Different strategies, I think yours is damaging and thus you win my vote.

Yes, because you saying it's perfectly mathematical makes it perfectly correct as well. *~rolls eyes~*

Uh, yes. If you accept the basic assumptions, the conclusion follows logically. You, of course, chose to decide there's no risk in voting hastily, because you don't like the conclusion, but I wonder if the other players in the game share your opinion.

Now everyone has all this crap from you to look over, so they can decide for themselves. I'm happy with that. Let the people decide.

Only you've been inflating this "crap" into monstrous proportions, to discourage people from reading, posting, or doing much of anything. Good job, I'd've never believed it might work for you in this game.

He is generally less concerned about surviving and more concerned about being right at the end of the game.

I'm "paranoid' about being lynched, so I'm

not concerned

about being lynched, so I'm mafia? What?

Antrax

[Antrax]

And now, a quick recap of mith vs. me:
1. You led the bandwagon of an innocent.
So what? 5 other people pushed the wagon. I don't see you jumping on them. Why is leading worse than being the last vote, or being the middle vote? All it shows is that I actually try to think for myself.

2. Not taking responsibility for said bandwagon, and instead passing it off as "oh well, he shouldn't have been so suspicious, not my fault".
See point #1. This is wrong both metagame-wise, and in this game.

3. General paranoia over people voting for you, and other things mentioned above.
Can't defend against that, for obvious reasons. What to accuse me I'm in denial, as well?

4. Accusing me (and DP) of hastiness.
So you deny being hasty? Does DP deny being vindictive? Since when is an accusation a sign of being mafia, especially when it's simply correct?

5. Hunch.
Oh yeah, the magic bowels strike again.

6. Missing obvious things (IMO), ties into 4 mostly.
Actually, I believe you're the one missing the obvious things, and are doing it on purpose, and are concealing it in huge posts so people will be too lazy to realise you're simply lying.

Antrax

[Antrax]

Because I'm convinced you and your goons are trying to get me lynched, and thus there's no chance of sudden mafia invasion of my bandwagon.
Because DP has 4 votes after someone with a role accused him.
Because handicapping myself when nobody else seems to be following it (even though nobody made a single explanation of why I'm wrong) is bad play, on my part. It's useless to be the only righteous man if all it means is that your purpose is lost in the mob.

Why aren't you defending your 6-point arguement against me? Isn't that the summary of all the bad and evil things I'm apparently guilty of? Why are you still continuing the 1000-word posts?
Antrax

[Antrax]

And no one has explained why you're wrong? Do I even need to comment on that? Come on, this is just pathetic.

And the great thing about you, mith, is that you actually believe this is a retort. And that allows you to always claim you've responded to all my points, when in fact all you've done was posted some text after it, which might or might not relate to what you've quoted.

As for being "full of it", let's see who we have against me:
you, the scum.
DP, the vindictive voter.
IS, the bandwagon pusher, who said himself he's voting for me just because I'm funny.
Sofis the silent, about whom I always wonder, why does he bother to play.
Yeah, I feel bad to have this crack team of experts all feeling I'm full of it. It's about as offensive as having a group of KKK calling me a stupid racist.
Antrax

[Antrax]

I'll defend against it once you show HOW it's "hypocritical" and "a big fat lie". I'm working on the technique of ignoring what the other person says, obviously mastered by you in the two years you've dedicated to online mafia.
Antrax

[Antrax]

I read it thoroughly; I'm still at a loss how it says I'm a hypocrite or a big fat liar. Big yeah, but I'm on a diet and lying is bad for your skin.
Antrax

[Antrax]

I'm waiting for Samadhi to confirm there's no possible way he could've misunderstand his role or be an insane cop or what have you. As opposed to others, I kinda like playing cautiously.
Antrax

[Antrax]

"not a townie" or mafia? This is crucial.
Antrax

[Antrax]

I've read all your posts again, the first says you're 100% sure DP is scum, the next says "Werebear won't shoot me, DP isn't a townie", and now you're saying he's not a townie again. If he's the fabled cop, we're losing this game right here, right now (assuming you're not mafia and Werebear shoots you for being wrong). Then again, as I'm typing this, I realise that if he's the cop, you can't be anything other than mafia, because 1 cop, 1 doc and 1 vigilante in a game that has 3 mafia tops is already strong, another good role would tip the scales too much.

vote: DP

Antrax

[Antrax]

Oh yeah. Werebear, assuming Samadhi's not wrong, shoot mith, he's so scum it hurts. Take the time to read his posts (and mine, the interaction is crucial), I'm sure it'll become evident to you.
Antrax

[Antrax]

Oddity. Something doesn't quite sit here. ~watches the game~
Antrax

[Antrax]

I love it when a plan comes together
Antrax

[Antrax]

What I don't undersatnd is, what my cop claim THAT obscure? I didn't want to come outright so Sofis could claim it for the endgame if things go the way I predicted them to (I expected to be lynched day 2), but when I saw someone has information on DP I started spewing out hints like insane. I was sure mith was the cop for "not realising" it, but then when I was shot by Werebear I started pondering, is it really not obvious when I continously ignore the "so why doesn't the cop come out" and "you think lynching you is the worst thing that could happen to this town" accusations? I mean, please.
Around the end of day 2 I was fairly convinced there's no cop, and thought Samadhi was a polygraph guy, for saying DP isn't a townie (after DP claimed townie). I was sure Samadhi isn't overlooking the possibility that DP is the cop, which meant he's either evil, the cop himself, or another good role who realised another cop would be unbalanced. All three options spelled out "die die die suck Samadhi scum", anyway.
Kudos to DP on picking up on the hints that I'm scum, though apparently I overdid it a bit , kudos to Sofis, whom I've planned originally to win the game, even if we don't find our traitor. And most of all, I'm impressed with IS for figuring out the last mafia, even though he didn't follow through. I'm unclear on why mole lied and lost the town the game.
Antrax

[Antrax]

mith, I'm not really saying THIS was my plan. My plan was originally based on a two mafia family game (which was what I suspected quer was doing, after seeing we were only two), definitely no cult, etc. Lighten up.
Werebear, did you see my cop claim and just didn't care, or did you miss it?
Antrax

[Antrax]

I love it when a plan comes together

How else was I supposed to take that?

A pretty obvious joke, I would think. Hence the smiley and the second post afterwards?
Antrax

[Antrax]

And Werebear, you still haven't answered me. Have you missed my claim or seen through it?
Antrax

[Antrax]

You know, I'm starting to think I play this game differently. Both you, IS and mith saw that I'm claiming cop and were so sure of yourselves that you just didn't care. I used to think IS was reckless, but so far it seems I'm the weirdo here for playing safely. I don't get it.
Antrax

[Antrax]

The world is a freaky place, when the majority thinks with their bowels and not their brains. Somewhere, evolution took a wrong turn.
Antrax