Mini 1315 - Wizarding World Of Hiplop's Mafia Game!

[Yates]

It's only of moderate use as there are a good number of posts missing. *shrug* New game, looks like...

[Yates]

Almost all of my posts were eaten up - which is too bad b/c I had some good leads and I have no idea what they were anymore.

I'll just go back to

Vote: Descent

until I can come out of RVS in *this* reboot.

[Yates]

Actually, the reason I voted for Descent was because I happened to agree with 4nx in that the questions don't actually help move the game along so much as distract from the task at hand. With nothing better to go on, that was my best vote at the time.

Ice's vote is definitely OMGUS but we're still sort of in an RVS phase again so I'm not weighing it too heavily. Ice's vote on 4nx is a bit of a stretch but about as good as anything else right now.

[Yates]

Sorry guys, I've been working nonstop on the house. I don't have anything solid, gorkat, that's why my "RVS" remains on silly questions. I realize it isn't the strongest case but it's what I have right now. Ice and 4nx's interaction doesn't really give us enough to go on to convince me that one is scum over the other. Normally, I would be suspicious of you trying to white knight yourself as leader of the Town but I don't have the energy I had before the reset and I imagine that's a fairly common sentiment right now. It really took the momentum out of the game and makes it difficult/confusing to pick back up.

[Yates]

So Yates, if you don't have any thoughts on this game, who needs some attention shined on them and why?

To answer your question:

Overall, the idea that Pez was scummy is something I kind of agree with (so Kortul that means you) and overall I'm not sure on 4nx. I am not sure whether or not he is scummy enough to really warrant a vote on him.

VOTE: 4anxi3ty

WTF?

[Yates]

Yeah. That pretty much solidifies my opinion of Descent's scumminess.

[Yates]

I am trying to put pressure on 4nx but apparently it doesn't work. Just makes me look like scum.

No. What you did is this:

1. You stated that you thought Kortol's slot was scummy
2. You stated you weren't sure about 4nx
3. You *still* voted for the guy you weren't sure about over the guy you claimed was scummy and that person just happened to have the most votes at the time

There is no conceivable Town motivation for this sequence of events. Conversely, as already pointed out, this would be an obvious scum play to try to distance and pile on to a bad wagon if Kortul is scum and 4nx is Town. We don't know a lot yet, but that play wreaks of scum motivation.

[Yates]

Guys, I'm EST and it's St Paddy's day. The is the last I will be sober until sometime tomorrow afternoon/evening.

Best while you have it, use your breath.
There is no drinking after death!

[Yates]

Yates and ICE seemed to be rewriting Descent's comments when he made his vote.

How is a direct quote a "rewrite?"

Why are you defending Descent, who has clearly made unquestionably the scummiest post of the game? Do you know something we don't? This feels to me like 1. scum trying to defend his scum buddy or 2. scum trying to set themselves up for a white knighting - I just can't tell which. In either case, you just moved ahead into my scum category for baseless defense of clearly scummy acts.

1.

Descent seems to be trying to be more protown when prompted to it, and the way he worded his vote is not nearly as scummy as he is being painted.

2

The fact that he is willing to vote for pressure even though he is not certain his vote is on scum is a towntell...

These are two of the worst arguments in the entire thread.

1. You are trying to argue that SCUM would have no motivation to

act

protown? That's your argument? Seriously? This argument is wifom at best and null at worst.
2. You are trying to argue that SCUM would have no motivation to pressure vote? Role-fishing, anyone?? This is absolutely NOT a towntell by any stretch of the imagination.

The only reason I'm not voting for either of you is because the math suggests you are both probably just stupid as opposed to both being scum and nothing either of you have said negates the overarching scumminess of Descent's post. I'll reevaluate your play after Descent flips but you're both on notice. Pay attention to logic and facts.

[Yates]

Fact...I already broke down what Descent said and how you framed it differ

Orlly?

What you did is this:

1. You stated that you thought Kortol's slot was scummy
2. You stated you weren't sure about 4nx
3. You *still* voted for the guy you weren't sure about over the guy you claimed was scummy and that person just happened to have the most votes at the time

1. Fact - he *did* state he thought Kortol's slot was scummy right here:

Overall, the idea that Pez was scummy is something I kind of agree with (so Kortul that means you)

Do your interpretive dance all you want but Descent *FURTHER* confirmed he believed Kortol's slot was scummy here:

So, if I am thinking someone in scum, then I don't vote for them. If I was voicing my thoughts, I don't have to vote someone else. I just don't see the problem here.

I am trying to put pressure on 4nx but apparently it doesn't work. Just makes me look like scum.

2. Fact - he *did* state he wasn't sure about 4nx here:

...and overall I'm not sure on 4nx.

I am not sure whether or not he is scummy enough to really warrant a vote on him.

This isn't even open to interpretation. Nor is...

3. Fact - he *did* vote for the guy he was "not sure whether or not he is scummy enough to really warrant a vote" on here:

VOTE: 4anxi3ty

AND that person *did* have the most votes at the time.

Ladies and gentlemen of mafiascum, these are the facts of the case and they are beyond dispute. I made no misrepresentations whatsoever and any allegations to the contrary have just been disproved.

[Yates]

Thanks for continuing to add nothing to this already worthless game, Norman.

[Yates]

Pesimist

You say pesimist[sic], I say

Bearer of Truthiness

.

[Yates]

With all these replacements we should also probably consider extending the deadline. I imagine it was tough enough on Pine replacing in but this is bordering on insane turnover.

[Yates]

whu just happened? This whole page wasn't here before I posted - lol.

[Yates]

I'm inclined to halfheartedly agree with ICE on your slot, Mindgamer. I can't tell if Norman was just a tool poster or if there was intentional obfuscation going on there. I'm counting on reading your - hopefully insightful - posts to make things more clear to me.

I wasn't sold on 4nx-scum early on but I don't like the way he is dealing with the tiny amount of pressure he was handed. The random policy lynch suggestion is the kicker for me. I know 4nx is claiming there was a "good reason" for choosing rang but really any of the 3 [not scum] would be just fine with scum as they wouldn't be here or care enough to defend themselves. How could a vote like that POSSIBLY help Town?

At this point I have nearly half the active Town as scum. These posts and votes just aren't making a lick of sense and it's driving me crazy.

[Yates]

Do you two need a moment to hug it out?

Which isn't scummy at all.

Are you being serious or joking with this statement? I can't tell.

[Yates]

Yates has been prodded

Sorry guys. I forgot to post V/LA while I was in Boston Friday through tonight. I'll post something of value in the morning. Right now I just need sleep.

[Yates]

ICEninja wrote:]

Yates wrote: Are you being serious or joking with this statement? I can't tell.

3 policy lynch possibilities were presented. 4nxi3ty was only tolerant of one due to reads from pre-reset. How is this scummy, when talk of policy lynches were floating around many players?

I believe I addressed this in post 162:

Yates wrote: I know 4nx is claiming there was a "good reason" for choosing rang but really any of the 3 [not scum] would be just fine with scum as they wouldn't be here or care enough to defend themselves. How could a vote like that POSSIBLY help Town?

So, yeah, I think policy lynch suggestions at that point on people being replaced are scummy. Explain to me how voting for someone that is actively being replaced out could possibly help Town. If you can convince me that there could be even the slightest motivation for Town to do something like this, I will reconsider my position however you have an uphill struggle as all I can see is scum motivation for suggesting something like this. Lynching an inactive Townie before he/she is replaced with an active Townie is the easiest/least suspicious way of getting rid of a role before a potentially better player takes the role over.

Pizza wrote: Yes, join the scum-led wagon on the townie, GENIUS PLAN TOWN!!!

Seriously? THIS is your defense?

kortul wrote: Descent is a controversial read. He started expressing his own thoughts finally, and i like that - it means that he listens, and cares, regardless of his alignment.

How do you differentiate Town responding to posting pressure from scum responding to posting pressure? Serious question. I just don't see how that particular line of reasoning for clearing Descent as Town holds any merit.

Where did this Pizza wagon come from so quickly? It seems to have grown AWEFULLY fast for someone that was active lurking then posted poor reads.

[PEDIT]Yeah, a lot of what Pine said.

Bottom line: I'm still happier with a Descent lynch than anyone else. I think we will have more to work on in the morning.

[Yates]

Killing a Town [or potential Town] "to help the mod" is a pretty awful play. That's my point. It doesn't help Town in any way shape or form. What it DOES do, as I have already explained, is it creates an environment where it is easier for scum to direct a ML and look innocent enough that you get a null read on a scum action.

That action pushes you towards scum for me. At best [for you] it is simply a poorly conceived lynch opportunity. This possibility is the difference between me voting for Descent and me voting for you right now.

As far as my agreement with Pine goes, he actually presented a logical case that was aligned with my reads so that certainly made it an easier sell to me. Is there anything either of us presented on how the pizza wagon is fishy that you disagree with?

[Yates]

FTR - I don't even care that the post above sounds like buddying. I am placing this post here as a placeholder to remind myself why I did it in case I get accused of buddying later on in the game. The fact of the matter is that this is the only logic being presented right now that I think just about everybody should be able to agree on.

[Yates]

@4nx [and - PE - addressing ICE's first question to me]:

This is the first mention of a policy lynch. I read it more as frustration with finally having a lynch target that then decides to replace out. Also, you will notice that he unvoted in that thread thus not actually proposing or pushing for a PL.

Gorkat weighs in on the "PL" in the very next post. You will notice that his stated preference is to not PL but instead to have a sensible replacement [the opposite of what scum would want but probably something scum would pretend to be in favor of].

I thought the PL discussion should have been closed with post 148 where Pine suggests quality replacements are "much more likely to save the game than anything else." Thus, effectively dropping any semblance of pushing for a PL.

But then you made post 149. I think I am probably weighing the scumminess of this post heavier due to the fact that the PL discussion had just been closed IMMEDIATELY before your post. I see the words you wrote. My job is to determine if they are scum or Town motivated. I don't think that you are scummy enough [especially based solely on this post] to merit a vote so I'm not voting for you. Depending on how things shake out, this can be an important post or it can be something I completely forget about. Right now, it stands out in my head.

[Yates]

As far as my agreement with Pine goes, he actually presented a logical case

Maybe I'm missing something but, no he hasn't. He hasn't put forth a case against any player, and said some very abstract stuff like "heeby jeebies" when attempting to shoot down the Pizza wagon, without actually explaining why any of it was bad.

Posts 259 and 261. I may have been a bit generous with calling these posts a "logical case" but I agreed with them and didn't see a whole lot of need for a ton of exposition. Again, I'm not going to argue semantics about this being a "case" versus simply agreeing with points made by another player.

PE
I don't have any of you in my obv Town column so I think you can understand why anything you have said isn't super persuasive. Your best arguments can't hold any weight until a flip so... [hands in the air]

[Yates]

I actually didn't notice this question.

@ Kortul: Mostly the questions are probably the biggest mistake, it put the focus onto me instead of others. So instead of everyone looking for

other scum members

, they were looking at me.

For me it sounds as "instead of searching for my scum teammates everyone started looking at me". The problem is, English isn't my native language, so i may be completely wrong, in this case this is null tell. And i don't have native speakers around me whom i can ask whether i am right or wrong, so i will rely on your opinions.

You could be right - this could be a scum slip. However, it could just as easily have been a poorly phrased sentence.

[Yates]

I should probably add, in case it isn't clear, I'm not reading too much into the way he phrased that sentence for right this second. It was innocuous enough that it never occurred to me that it could be interpreted as a scum-slip. I look at his posts in their totality and come up with a scum read. That's why my vote is on him.

[Yates]

Hell, 4nxi3ty is driving me crazy. On one hand, first he started talking about no-lynch, then later suggested less visible scheme of spreading votes "switch your vote to 4nxi3ty or theamatuer and lets see where the chips fall." Both ideas are really bad.

Yeah, he's really the only person besides Descent that I would feel comfortable lynching today. I think I have made my case in any number of my responses to his questions over the last two pages.

[Yates]

No lynch gives us no information and no shot at catching scum. That's all. Other than that, it's a great idea.

[Yates]

Really? I'm the *only* one on Descent? /Yates throws his hands up in the air in exasperation

Vote: 4nxi3ty

for generally anti-Town play and to get on a wagon that is less lonely!

@Pizzadude - this is my intent to put you at L-1

. I may not be in love with the wagon but we need to advance this game and I certainly don't have a Town read on you. You need to post some convincing content.

[Yates]

Really? I'm the *only* one on Descent? /Yates throws his hands up in the air in exasperation

Vote: 4nxi3ty

for generally anti-Town play and to get on a wagon that is less lonely!

@Pizzadude - this is my intent to put you at L-1

. I may not be in love with the wagon but we need to advance this game and I certainly don't have a Town read on you. You need to post some convincing content.

2 questions about this:
1.) How does your vote at all work with what you said. Currently, the wagon is on me.
2.) If you think I am scum, why not vote me? Instead, you decide to flip on someone who there isn't much talk about. This looks like either A. Bussing or B. Something you hope to use to save your ass down the road. Either way, not good for you.

As for the claim, I am a Vanilla Townie. Nothing special, just a townie.

1. What? How was my very clear statement at all murky to you?
2. I voted for my second scum read - as I clearly stated in several posts. Also, I am not going to put someone at L-1 and not give them a chance to roleclaim. Makes too easy of a lynch target for a quick scum/dumb Town/silly noob hammer.

As to your claim? Obviously not a strong claim. Not something that will dissuade people on your wagon. Somehow, though, I believe you. And THAT is why my vote is now on 4nx. See how easily you could have answered your own question?

[Yates]

Well obviously I did not know that. If it makes you feel better,

intent to hammer

?

[Yates]

Yeah. I'm comfortable placing my vote right back on 4nxi3ty.

Vote: 4nxi3ty

Remains my strongest scum read. Theam is a close 2nd but 4nx is the play for today.

[Yates]

I disagree with you, Slandaar.

[Yates]

Descent - any reason for thinking this? My vote is on 4nx for a reason and I will require evidence and logic to convince me to change my vote to someone else as opposed to a "gut feeling."

[Yates]

For those of you that like/need linkies, post 278 is my case on 4nx from yesterday. The fact that Gorckat flipped VT doesn't change the weight of my argument very much.

I'm still extremely suspicious of Descent and will be monitoring his posts.

[Yates]

Alright, I don't want this to become a distraction:

hey pine

17th March you replace in

26th I do
and then 26th Pine starts posting

9 days is long enough to post something... anything, but you only post remote content when I appear.

Whats that about blatantly not true?

Actually, this

is

blatantly untrue. I just did an ISO and Pine posted content just about everyday with the exception of a 4 day weekend. I could post a page full of links and dates as evidence but that page already exists - ISO Pine.

You can think Pine is scummy but at least do it for factual reasons. Untrue blanket statements like "you only post content when I appear" is scummier than if your statement were actually true and it did take Pine some time to replace in.

I am not impressed with your play so far, Slandaar. You make too many statements of extremes that feel disingenuous like this one or 337 [we are lynching one of these three but not 4nx]. This feels like 4nx may be your scum buddy. And before you try accusing me of the same, I am arguing the truth value of your statement [Pine only voted once I replaced in] as opposed to defending Pine. Those are, indeed, two completely different things.

For the record, I have Pine has null-Town.

[Yates]

Played with pine knows what im saying but is clearly nitpicking my wording to the extreme.

Yes. I have played with Pine twice before. He is hard for me to read but this is generally Pine-Town meta.

17th March you replace in

26th I do
and then 26th Pine starts posting

9 days is long enough to post something... anything

Who is nitpicking? You flat out stated that he didn't post in 9 days. That is

not

nitpicking. Your statement is in bold in case you forgot, backed up by the fact you pointed out two dates. Your backpedaling and revisionist statements in the face of fact is the only truly "interesting" and revealing component of this exercise.

I was willing to shrug this off as tunneling but you are now stepping into straight up scum motivation category here. Drop the "9 days" argument already and build an actual factual case without all the rhetoric.

[Yates]

Explain scum motivation.

I think that statement is self explanatory. I'm not going to tell you how to avoid my scum radar. And as to your first point, that's how you are supposed to play the game. If you aren't paying attention to people's roles in how lynches went down, what good are you?

[Yates]

Or could it be you are nitpicking?

I'm not going to get into a semantic argument with you. You made a false statement. I called you out on it. The end.

I'll leave it up to others to decide if I'm "nitpicking" or if you simply made a false/misleading statement as I allege.

[Yates]

I clearly was being figurative if you think about it for 5 seconds.

That's your revisionist version. The statements you made paint a completely different picture. I'm done arguing this ridiculous tangential point. If you keep it up, that is

another

scum tell - trying to obfuscate facts by harping on nonsense and vagaries that do nothing to move the game in a positive direction.

[Yates]

I do disagree. It looks to me like you are trying to take advantage of the fact that this game has been so disjointed between the reset and all of these players replacing in and out. I am not going to take it for granted that everyone is going to fact check statements like that by doing an ISO read. I actually took the time to point it out because I thought your statement was misleading. I built my argument because you felt the need to press the issue.

So far, three people [me, Pine, and Theam] are on record as saying that your statement was misleading. That is a fair percentage of the active posters in this game today. I imagine we aren't the only ones, we just happen to be the first to say something.

And anyway, what's your point? How does the introduction of Slandaar into the game somehow make scum more likely to post? It's nonsense. This argument is nonsense. Your statements were misleading at best and factually incorrect at worst. You need to drop it.

[Yates]

Pine > Slandaar Period.

Slandaar, you have just been pwned.

[Yates]

Actually, I've had quite enough of this.

Unvote

Vote: Slandaar

At this point, his poisoning the well on inane talking points has moved beyond ignorant Town into scum category. Couple this with his repeated attempts at uncovering the criteria for which I determine scum? Fold all of this in with a slot that was scummy to begin with? This all combines into a scum stew. I can not point to a single post of Slandaar's that does ANYTHING to help us win the game or find scum. Conversely, there is a complete series of posts that try to derail the scum hunting and confuse Town. Screw that noise.

[Yates]

Slandaar - why have you

still

not posted your case on Elmo? You have been asked for a case at least three times now. WTF is wrong with you?

Present your case on Elmo.

Do it.

[Yates]

I have

Where? Simple link would suffice. If you can't link to it, it didn't happen.

Oh wait. I found it.

Elmo seems like scum to me

Post 288 isn't really a case so much as some quotes with unexplained hyperbole by you. I *do* enjoy your role fishing, though, in your next post. It makes it much easier to build a stronger case on you.

Pizza should claim btw.

Oh maybe I jumped the gun. Surely THIS precious gem is the bedrock of your case?

So, Elmo is just voting pl's basically.

Elmo is scum making easy votes.
Thats the way things seemed yesterday, seems the same now.

My bad. That's an AMAZING case.

how about you ISO him and tell me why hes town hm?

It's not my job to "prove" anyone Town other than myself. It is, however, YOUR job to prove your votes are on scum. You see, that's how this game works.

@Yates: what is your take on not knowing where your vote is?

Is this a complete sentence? I don't understand your question; I know EXACTLY where my vote is:

Actually, I've had quite enough of this.

Vote: Slandaar

As a point of order, do you see how I gave reasons for voting for you? Here, let me show you:

At this point, his poisoning the well on inane talking points has moved beyond ignorant Town into scum category. Couple this with his repeated attempts at uncovering the criteria for which I determine scum? Fold all of this in with a slot that was scummy to begin with? This all combines into a scum stew. I can not point to a single post of Slandaar's that does ANYTHING to help us win the game or find scum. Conversely, there is a complete series of posts that try to derail the scum hunting and confuse Town. Screw that noise.

That's the kind of stuff you need to be doing when you vote - preferably in the same post you voted in.

OH! And while we are at it, I did enjoy rereading this post when you forced me into ISO. I had forgotten all about it:

Because I havnt actually said...

Elmo/Theam are the best votes
Pine is decent his story just is wrong.
Descent maybe but I dont buy the scumslip thing.
gnr could be scum of course...
mindgamer who knows he can die

ice/kortul/gorc/yates/anx I think are all town

Pizza... we will find out shortly but

I am thinking he flips town as there are many lurkers here it doesnt make sense why he took the heat over the others

.

Why Sland? Why out all this now? to look town?
Because im town and thats how I roll.

Interesting that you somehow magically

knew

Pizza would flip Town while not actually actively preventing his lynch. Who would know information like this but not be interested in preventing a ML? Oh right - SCUM.

[Yates]

O. M. G.

Jackpot, baby. How fortuitous that I should just happen to replace into a game today on the day Slandaar was lynched and flipped scum. <- There is your scum meta on Slandaar. Look familiar?

[Yates]

Yates do you think not knowing where your vote is is scummy or not? (part of my lovely elmo case)

Again, I don't understand what you are asking me. Do you think I don't know where my vote is?

[Yates]

I am asking you your take on Elmo forgetting where his vote was.

Holy Christ. Could you have been any less clear in your phrasing?! I don't think it's a big deal. The game hadn't gained any inertia at that point yet.

Post 398 is a bunch of HUGE leaps in logic. I don't even know how to respond. Every single point you made is equally true of Town in the lynch spotlight trying to stay alive. Another concern I have is building a wagon on someone that is constantly in need of prodding. I'm not advocating allowing lurker scum to slip but it also makes far too easy ML bait. This is what I have to say re Elmo:

@Elmo - start posting content and reads or your lurkiness will flip to a scum tell. I'm cutting you some slack due to how this game has been playing out but we are starting to get back in a rhythm and regular flow so that will not be an excuse

ToMorrow

. [<- lol] There is a LOT to comment on. Get reading. Get posting.

I'm also not buying your meta argument. That's far too lazy of an argument. Let me ask you this; how much experience do you think each of us has with Pine? This argument lacks enough relevance for me to bother doing the homework. I know Pine died N1 in Ghostbusters [he was Janine to my Egon] so that relationship was brief. I don't remember the other game we were in together but I think I replaced in and we had about one day there together too. Still, neither of these have strong correlation with the circumstances of THIS game where he replaced in to a game that had no history other than an archive file with no names. An archive file, might I remind you, that YOU were too lazy or unable to decipher yourself. Should I add the fact that you don't bring archive evidence up in any of your arguments to your list of scum tells? Do you see how you are reaching here?

Also, I think you would need a scum flip on Pine in order to arrive at the theory that I'm scum buddies with Pine and Elmo and Ice. Further, you need to recognize that I'm not defending Pine [not my job - it's his]. I'm arguing points you are making that are weak. The fact that you are tunneling on Pine and Elmo, for whom you had not [until recently] presented a case on, makes my arguments about the veracity of your statements absolutely pertinent to scum hunting. I'm not going to let ANYONE slide when they make obviously false or misleading statements that I happen to catch. If I lie or mislead, I fully expect you to call me out on it.

[Yates]

Dropped the meta argument already?

No. *MY* meta argument is solid and has a link provided.

Your "relationship meta" is the garbage argument. Firstly, it doesn't make logical sense. Second, I know for 100% fact that you didn't take the time to "check your math" when you couldn't even be bothered to find information provided on the THIRD PAGE of THIS game.

Not surprising. I dont for one second believe you did meta me.

Why? Because I have clearly been so demonstrably lazy this game? You do realize that I *had* to read through that whole game so I can start contributing when Day starts Tuesday morning? I'm confident that my first post will illustrate just how closely I *did* read that game. I think anyone can understand why I would pay special attention to the way you posted given the fact that you flipped scum and are currently in a game with me. I will admit that I haven't done a meta on ALL of your games but why would I? I have scum meta already, and that's all I need.

[Yates]

You replaced into bb?

Yes. Hence THIS argument:

How fortuitous that I should just happen to replace into a game today on the day Slandaar was lynched and flipped scum

. <- There is your scum meta on Slandaar.

I look at your meta from BB only and compare it to how you post here and it is a match.

Also, why are you trying to pretend you didn't know I replaced into BB?? You acknowledged that fact in the very next post!

If you use that game to meta me it should conf town me first few days I post like nothing polar opposite to here so yeah thanks for making my life easy.

[Yates]

So,

Yates

, what's the deal with theamatuer being your second scum read (you didn't even mention him on day 1, what are the reasons for such a change), and how do you actually rank you scum reads now (including Slandaar)?

My scum reads go like this:

1. 4nxi3ty
2. Slandaar
3. Descent
4. Theam

I realize this looks confusing on the outset so let me explain. My vote is on Slandaar over 4nx because Slandaar is doing a better job of, what I call, "cluttering the thread." At first I thought he was just misreading arguments or misunderstanding points. That Pine wall really rubbed me the wrong way and caused me to begin to wonder if these misreps weren't intentional. His responses to my questions and evidence pretty much convinced me that he was being intentionally evasive and untruthful [look at post 426 above for an obvious example]. These are absolutely not Town traits. At this point, I'm ready to call a Slandaar/4nx scum team so it doesn't really matter which order they are lynched in. Since the order doesn't matter, I'd rather lynch the player that is most likely to create chaos in what should be a logical series of posts. I won't self-meta, but you can always look at my wiki page [if it still exists?] to see how I describe myself as a player. Spoiler: I consider good logic paramount to success.

As I explained in post 407, I am usually reluctant to cheerlead a wagon on an inactive player. Just replace "Elmo" with "Descent" in that post and you'll see where I stand. Plus, Slandaar jumped ahead of Descent with his play today while Descent did nothing to improve or degrade his standing. The fact that I couldn't drum up support yesterday while Descent was active didn't give me confidence in a Descent lynch today.

TBH - I've forgotten all about Theam. I liked the arguments earlier in the day but they seem to have fallen flat. Conversely, Slandaar has done a fantastic job of digging a hole for himself. I'd need to go back and reread to see what the main arguments were but I don't recall anything standing out - which is telling in and of itself.

[Yates]

yates, what makes you think slandaar's play is similar? To me the way slandaar handles pressure in each game is completely different.

I read it differently. To me, his misdirection and faked confusion are playing out the same way here. Of course, that's why I provided the link. I'm not going to tell you how to read Slandaar's meta, I'll leave that up to you.

[Yates]

See, it's little things like this:

You are simply looking at my posting STYLE which of course is similar.

Which is why you are probably scum as its just fake.

Matching up behavior-wise [if not verbatim] with posts like this:

pizza is scum he lied about reading through me

You will also see in an ISO in that game that he calls on players to "meta me." This is the exact same challenge he has made to me here.

Then I look at the way he tunneled on Pizza [the same way he is tunneling on Pine]. He pretended to flip-flop once or twice [as he did with theam and myself] then continued on his Pizza wagon.

I suppose it could be coincidence, but coincidence builds on coincidence until it is no longer coincidence. For me, it is no longer coincidence.

[Yates]

1.

I didnt realise you replaced into it

2.

So now I have told you some of the minor differences (not telling major) am I scum?

1. [quote="In Yes, you did.
2. [quote="In Yes, you are.

[Yates]

I meant to get to this game today But I don't think Ill have the time right now. This will have to wait till tomorrow.

Stop prod dodging. This becomes a scum tell right around THIS point in the game.

[Yates]

Yeah - you're all over Paranoia and the Newb game. Now I seriously want to know why you aren't posting here?

[Yates]

VOTE: Yates

OMGUS?

[Yates]

@Pine

Mass of posts to get out of pressure Yates comes in and his posting declines massively

The man has a point. Why did you stop posting all of a sudden?

[Yates]

Scum –

Theam
Descent / Anxiety – they are very unlikely to be scum together
Elmo
Pine

I suspect you will get about here real soon. You're almost there already.

[Yates]

For the love of Christ... WTF, ELMO???

I saw you had two posts on the front page but hadn't posted here. I checked on my other games and you hadn't posted here. I looked at your profile and guess what? THIS is the only game you are ignoring. You even

/in-ed a mf new game!!!

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 6&sr=posts

by Elmo TeH AzN
Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:02 pm

Forum: The Road to Rome
Topic: Newbie 1222: Rollback, who needs it? (Day 1 begins!)
Replies: 343

by Elmo TeH AzN
Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:00 pm

Forum: Little Italy
Topic: Mini #1317- Day 2
Replies: 612

by Elmo TeH AzN
Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:25 pm

Forum: Central Park
Topic: Open 381 - Day 2
Replies: 223

by Elmo TeH AzN
Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Forum: Little Italy
Topic: Mini #1317- Day 2
Replies: 612

by Elmo TeH AzN
Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:40 pm

Forum: Theme Park
Topic: Paranoia Mafia -- Daycycle 1
Replies: 233

by Elmo TeH AzN
Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:17 pm

Forum: Little Italy
Topic: Mini #1317- Day 2
Replies: 612

by Elmo TeH AzN
Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:33 pm

Forum: Little Italy
Topic: Mini #1317- Day 2
Replies: 612

A /in?!! REALLY???

by Elmo TeH AzN
Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:23 am

Forum: The Whole Sort of General Mish Mash
Topic: Trouble in Terrorist Town- 6/12
Replies: 8

by Elmo TeH AzN
Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:22 am

Forum: The Whole Sort of General Mish Mash
Topic: NomicScum, Game 1
Replies: 19

Explain this right about now.

[Yates]

Either way
VOTE: Slandarr
Your case on me is crap and logic isn't following

Would read again. Two thumbs up.

[Yates]

I also love how Slandaar is trying his little misdirection game again. What a tool bag.

[Yates]

Look at these posts in order:

462 - you quote two posts 230 posts apart
463 - Elmo said he changed his mind in 200 posts
464 - you decided to to go find a different post to "correct him" and show it was "only" 100 posts apart.

FTR - A LOT can happen is 100 posts so you didn't actually disprove anything. All you did was demonstrate the classic scum tell of proving you were right about an inconsequential element of a point/argument versus disproving the

actual

point/argument itself.

[Yates]

ugh - "in 100 posts" not "is 100 posts"

"A LOT can happen

in

100 posts so you didn't actually disprove anything."

[Yates]

Did you miss the part where I said this:

"All you did was demonstrate the classic scum tell of proving you were right about an inconsequential element of a point/argument versus disproving the actual point/argument itself."

???

Let me make it crystal clear to you:
WHO FUCKING CARES IF IT WAS 100 POSTS OR 200 POSTS??!! THAT'S A SHIT TON OF POSTS TO CHANGE YOUR MIND. YOUR ARGUMENT IS COMPLETE SHIT AND NOT WORTH THE COST OF ELECTRICITY IT TOOK TO LIGHT THE PIXELS IN THE PERIOD AT THE END OF THIS SENTENCE.

[Yates]

yates thinks people can change their reads without explanation and wave it away as 'LOL 100 POSTS BRO'

Nice try. I actually said your ARGUMENT that he is scum because he changed his mind is crap. He absolutely needs to explain why he thinks people are scummy when he votes for them. I am pretty friggin obviously consistent in that belief.

Again - stop your hand waving bs.

[Yates]

Also, you consistently think that anyone that votes for you is scum. Grow up. Learn to play mafia.

[Yates]

Elmo – rocketed to the top for reasons I will elaborate in a case in the next 48 hours.
Descent – play today has consisted of lurking out pressure
TheAm – play today continued my scum reads
Slandaar – jumps to the top of list if Elmo is scum.
Pine – Only makes sense if Slandaar and TheAm are both Town

I knew you'd end up with p-much the same scum suspects as me. I think you forgot about 4nx, btw. FTR, he is lower on my scumdar now that this day has progressed and he has posted some better content.

The Elmo read is the only one not on my list and since I cant hear the argument through the white noise of Slandaar's scumminess, I am looking forward to seeing your case. I believe I had him listed as null-scum while I waited for him to post today. I have to admit that I did like seeing some good content in 459-461.

I'm also interested in seeing how you arrive at Slandaar-scum if Elmo-scum. I see bussing, but not obv-bussing so I may be missing something.

[Yates]

nope, just that TheAm is a confident scumread of mine and all thats left is finding his buddy(s). confident that kortul, descent, and mindgamer are town; not so much on elmo yet more so than yates, slandaar, you, and pine.

This is an infuriating statement.

How can you *possibly* be confident in MindGamer being Town? [NOT rhetorical] How can you be confident in

anything

Mindgamer related when the dude hasn't posted in 5 days? How do you make reads on people without content?!

This thread is riddled with Descent cases and you haven't spoken up or presented evidence to shoot down a single one. How can you sit there and tell us you have a Town read on Descent when he is ALSO not posting content? [NOT rhetorical]

To you a Town tell is someone that doesn't post?? [rhetorical] JC - I try to give people a chance to post before lynching them as I know some people get bored with these games if they are VT or whatever but at

some

point they have to post content or they are just scum-lurking. We already passed that point.

[Yates]

Magna this is a scumtell: posting a lot when under pressure but when not underpressure posting a LOT less.

That's also the tell of Town that doesn't want to be lynched. EQUALLY. This is why I'm saying that your cases are so craptastic. EVERYTHING you point to as being a "scum trait" is garbage. When you pull stunts like these, you sound like someone throwing mud at a fan to see what sticks. That, by the way, *IS* a scum trait.

[Yates]

Elmo, the discussion went in the wrong direction. You still didn't explain your switch on theamatuer.

What caused you to abandon your town read and change your mind?

Reference to the day 1 doesn't really explain anything, since he was town for you then.

Elmo - please answer the question in bold in a satisfactory manor. This part

is

important [as opposed to how many posts it took you to come to this conclusion].

[Yates]

What I like about the Elmo-wagon: kortul and moi
What I don't like about the Elmo wagon: Slandaar

Decisions... decisions...

[Yates]

Im not one for knowing whats allowed in Mini normals but I didn't feel there should have been speculation of a SK. And even then why he didn't elaborate on it and

why the SK would go after gorcat

.

That's the part that ultimately wins Elmo my vote.

Unvote
Vote: Elmo

[Yates]

Unvote

I don't want a quick/"accidental" hammer vote.

Anything else you want to say, Elmo, before the lynch?

I'm with you on Slandaar. Any other reads?

[Yates]

Unvote
I don't want a quick/"accidental" hammer vote.

Why did you immediately take kortul’s word for it and unvote without fact checking?

Laziness?

[Yates]

Alright. I don't see any point in prolonging the day anymore.

Vote: Elmo

[Yates]

Elmo is at L-1

(This time I checked my math, MOI.)

[Yates]

Unvote

I'll revote this time tomorrow morning unless I'm on tonight after Mind's content post. Nice to have an active slot back.

[Yates]

My townlist just got bigger

I wonder what makes you think Mind is Town? Oh. Right.

I also think Slandaar is town.

You are so transparent.

[Yates]

@Mind - Your Slandaar and Anx reads are puzzling.

I obviously vehemently disagree with your Slandaar read and saw nothing in your post that convinces me that his behavior can not also be applicable to a scum role. Are you basing your read on a "hunch?" Or do you have any evidence or specific posts that give you a Town read. I will admit that players that annoy me as much as Slandaar does can *sometimes* cause a misread. However, I think I have presented a pretty compelling case and have difficulty believing Town would act/post the way Slandaar does.

You 4nx read is the one that is actually giving me the most trouble. You say in the first line that he "seems

rather

Town" then immediately begin listing non Town behavior in the very same sentence. I don't see one statement in that read that would make him pro-Town.

I empathize with your Pine read. Just as I begin convincing myself he is Town he does stuff like disappear from the game. This is one point Slandaar raised that I *do* agree with. It isn't a scum tell to only post enough to remove any pressure - as any lazy Town would be equally likely to do the same thing - but it is scummy. He needs to start doing a better job of posting reads and presenting readable content.

I'm kind of glad you don't have a read on me, tbh. I realize that sounds a bit odd but at this early stage in the game I kind of

don't

want to be obvTown.

Descent and Theam are setting themselves up nicely to be lynched, I can agree with you there. There has been no pro-Town activity/content from either slot and the little content they

have

posted has been quite terrible. This is a discussion to be had tomorrow, though, as Elmo really did slip.

Speaking of tomorrow, it's Easter. I'm leaving town to visit my parents beginning this afternoon. Theam has maybe 2 hours to get in here and post or I am placing my vote. At this point, it isn't exactly a quick hammer if someone votes immediately after me. I also highly doubt anything he posts prehammer will do anything to sway me from my Elmo vote. He'll have time to post tomorrow. Plus he's v/la still, I believe, so what's the point?

[Yates]

Vote: Elmo

Have a Happy Easter, everyone. I'll be back on either late tomorrow night or bright and early Monday morning.

[Yates]

After the last day Descent post 339 it was obvious that he is most likely a cop...

How did you arrive at this conclusion, yesterday? TBH, I was sure I was going to be coming in to vote Descent when I saw the mod holding night waiting for an action from his slot [thought he was SK].

Now that he has flipped cop, it does make me rethink my positions on 4nx and TheAm.

Was Descent = cop obvious to anyone else??

[Yates]

Who was buddying you? Descent? or Theam?

[Yates]

Also, while you guys are here, can you please answer this?

Was Descent = cop obvious to anyone else??

[Yates]

From the looks of it, he had a 4nx inno though

Agreed. What do you think of his suspicion of you?

[Yates]

Compared to every f****** body else?

Well... he *was* a cop.

[Yates]

That just leaves Mindgamer and Pine. Fellas?

Was Descent = cop obvious to anyone else??

[/quote]

[Yates]

Pine?

Was Descent = cop obvious to anyone else??

[Yates]

These are pretty much the results I expected. I'm just going to come out and say it; I don't like that kortul jumped to "cop" while no one else did. Descent seemed like easy lynch meat, as Theam alluded to in his post 583. This was something that immediately came to mind when I saw Descent dead. I couldn't figure out who would want to kill Descent and for what purpose. The fact that kortul was able to volunteer answers to BOTH of those questions feels like a HUGE scum slip. When you combine that with the fact that he pretty much cheerlead the Elmo mislynch?

I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and:

Vote: kortul

If anyone disagrees with me or is against a kortul lynch, I'd like to hear a good case.

[Yates]

Lol. Nice try. I did not contradict myself in any way shape or form. If you look, I clearly meant that I came in ready to lynch Descent BEFORE reading the night's events. I realize I could have phrased that better but I didn't want to tip my cap too soon.

This is obviously all moot but this was my logic early in the morning: I didn't think the night phase would be held up for mafia since there are at least two. I [along with most everyone else] didn't think for a second that Descent was a Cop so the night wouldn't have been held up for that. So, by POE, I figured Descent must be the SK and I was ready to vote. Then I finished reading how the rest of the night went down and was left scratching my head. First, I was surprised Descent was Town [never mind

Cop

!]. Then, I was left to wonder who would have targeted Descent, as that's what you are supposed to do in order to advance these games. Then you [kortul] come along and just volunteer that information. That sent off alarm bells like crazy.

Also, I understand that scum lie. Good scum also tell just enough truth. You are the first and only person to come forward with this cop [for lack of a better word]

suspicion

on Descent while nearly everyone else found him scummy. As explained above, it isn't just one thing or one statement that makes me think you are scummy, it's the sequence of events that occurred early this morning. I had you as a Townish read until I pieced this together. If things work out the way I think, I also think I know who your scum buddy is. But that will be saved for later today after we've heard from some other slots.

[Yates]

Also, if we are going to delve into WIFOM like this:

so if i were scum i would press Descent into revealing such a read change yesterday (working on 339 or his reads), just to be sure whom to kill at night.

Let me add that if *I* were scum, I wouldn't be sticking my neck out on a theory like this that potentially implicates a player that everyone else had listed as Town. I'd just sit back and sheep someone with Town credit.

[Yates]

For a town scumhunting is a priority, not SK lynching. So, your mindset isn't townish. Period.

That's a semantic argument. To me, SK *is* scum. So is a witch or cultist or any other 3rd party that can hinder Town's ability to achieve our win condition.

While I would agree that scum have good reason to seek out the SK [mostly self preservation], their priority has to be seeking out Town PR's. The SK and scum have a weird symbiotic relationship in that each kill they make helps each other until they actually hit each other. This actually reinforces my earlier argument that scum would want a cop dead. Since no one seemed to "crumb" SK, it would make sense to me that you, as scum, would want Descent dead as you saw him crumbing cop.

This is really a tangential argument but from a Town perspective, catching the SK reduces the number of NK's by half in a single lynch. This is a good thing, yes? So I don't see your point.

@Slandaar - if you look back at the interplay, I think it will be obvious. However, I don't think it would be helpful to publicly announce it at this time. I'd rather see some posts from people without knowing they are under FOS yet. I will absolutely present my case for the other scum buddy before day's end, though, in case I get NKed.

[Yates]

Yates

If you are town, please explain why do you vote now, if you have no idea whether we are in LYLO or not? During Day 2 you withdrew your vote twice, because you didn't want quick/accidental hammers, even after something that

"ultimately won your vote"

. Why so careless now?

I'm the only vote on you. I placed my vote to - and I quote - "put my money where my mouth is." There is no danger of a quick/accidental hammer so this is not "careless" voting. I have a very strong suspicion of you and that's why I'm voting for you.

Also, TheAm lynch is endorsed by the dead Cop

Now that Descent has flipped cop, I would be inclined to believe he likely had an innocent read on 4nx. That obviously doesn't clear 4nx 100% but puts him at the bottom of the list for now [for me, anyway]. I can agree that the cop endorsement on Theam's lynch gives it a lot more credence but he wasn't specific enough to make me think he had a guilty on Theam. That's why I asked Theam that question earlier.

[Yates]

Update to add: I think Descent's perceived "uncertainty" about 4nx can also be read as "I have a guilty but I'm not ready to role reveal just yet." Theam didn't actually come close enough to lynch that Descent had to be much more specific than that. So I wouldn't read too far in to the specificity of his wording.

[Yates]

Yeah. I can agree with kortul on post 607. I wish I had done a preview edit but those are my thoughts as well.

[Yates]

Read the bolded. The uncertainty regarding 4nx indicates to me a natural, read-based change of heart. However, the unequivocal endorsement of Kortul, particularly with the stipulation that he didn't like Kortul D1 and now he does indicates that KORTUL was his N1 investigation.

This is very different from how I initially read his post. That doesn't mean it can't be read that way just that it isn't the way I was reading it.

If anything, reading it that way just cements my suspicions on kortul. I'll have to think about it and do some more reading.

[Yates]

I am pretty sure pines scum

What do you think about post 610? Especially the part quoted in my post above. Do you read Descent's statement as giving 4nx an innocent read or giving kortul a guilty read?

The only problem I have with this case is that if he had a guilty on anyone, you'd think he'd be pushing for a guilty party. It's hard to imagine how Descent would play his role but you would think he would be MUCH more forceful with a guilty result. That's why I'm starting to fall back on my initial read that he had an innocent on 4nx.

Like I said, I need to go back and look at D1 vs D2.

[Yates]

PE: What the fuck, Yates? There is no possible way that the Cop calling someone Town is a guilty read. Clean out your brain.

I totally misread that. I need a nap.

[Yates]

Also -

unvote

.

That obviously puts a huge dent in my theory.

[Yates]

Yates, your thought process isn't clear to me. You started the day with a case on Kortul, stating that it would have been too convenient for Kortul to have noticed Descent-cop (which I don't agree with btw, Kortul seems to pay great attention to detail and I'm not surprised he caught something others didn't) and combined that with 'he pretty much cheerlead the Elmo mislynch'.

This was your original attack, correct?

In a nutshell, yes. I *thought* I had caught a scum slip when he admitted to knowing the role of someone that:
1. Seemed like easy mislynch bait and
2. Didn't have an obvious PR [to me, anyway]
and got excited about finally having something tangible to work off of. As I stated earlier, the first thing I do when I see the kills in the morning is wonder why those slots were chosen and who might have had a reason/connection to them. When kortul said it was obvious to him that Descent was the Cop I thought that he would be the one scum that would want to target Descent, then.

Here's where my case went south:

Then later on you add that Descent might have had a guilty on Kortul instead of an innocent on 4nxi3ty. But you say you misread, unvote and say the misread puts a huge dent in your case. But what does Descent's investigation have to do with your original arguments of Kortul's 'scumslip' and his 'Elmo mislynch cheerlead'? Please clarify.

The way I originally read Descent's post, I though he was hinting that he had an innocent investigation result [as opposed to "read"] on 4nx. So that made me rethink my position on 4nx. I also straight up misread his statement on kortul thinking he said he was NOT Town. Upon further review, it is

equally likely

that he just had a Town read on 4nx but an innocent result on kortul. Obviously, if Descent had an innocent result on kortul, I'm way off base. I started doubting my gut enough to unvote until I can make better sense of what Descent was trying to communicate.

I don't withdraw my statement about kortul chearleading the Elmo lynch, as he clearly did that. However, this isn't a scum tell

on its own

in the same way that everyone on the Elmo wagon isn't automatically scummy.

I also still need a nap.

[Yates]

After yesterday's derp, I needed a break. Plus, I'm finishing me tax return... :/

[Yates]

Pine/theam are the scumteam

, either you are going to listen to me or not. Whatever the case I am ready to hammer either if they get to L-1, so if there is still some things you want to discuss keep them at L-2.

I'll test this theory... Pine is currently voting Theam. Let's see if he moves his vote once Theam has more pressure.

Vote: Theam

[Yates]

I started to read your case on me then fell asleep. It is pretty clear to me who the top scum suspects are. I don't need to rehash old arguments. Yes, I will absolutely vote for Theam to test Slandaar's theory because it will give us a crap ton of information. If that's scummy? You can bite my scummy butt.

[Yates]

@kortul - you never said how you read Descent's post. Was he saying he investigated YOU or 4nx?

[Yates]

Kortul, Yates how about you both vote Pine with me?

I only have Pine as scum with kortul. The problem is; if Theam is scum I don't know who his buddy is. It could be Pine or it could just as easily be kortul. Who do you think Pine's scum buddy would be?

I haven't done the math myself. Are we actually in mylo? I'd be okay with a massclaim. The only problem is we don't actually have conf Town to run it [ie. determine the order]. I *think* Descent meant to clear 4nx. Then again, Pine may actually believe his version of the reading which would keep 4nx on the table and remove kortul as a suspect. This, incidentally, is why I would have a kortul/Pine team. I just don't have enough info to lynch either one yet. So, I want to see what gets smoked out with Theam heading to the lynching platform. It could be kortul/Theam based on kortul's reaction to the pressure, I just need one more piece of info.

[Yates]

Seriously? You're going to nitpick semantics? Are you panicking? I'm saying I only have Pine as an absolute scum read if you are scum otherwise he's a coin flip.

[Yates]

Kortul is Descent's Cop clear. How is that a difficult concept?

I don't know that's the case. He wasn't clear on kortul or 4nx. I actually think 4nx is his cop clear and that he had a Town

read

on kortul.

Can you disprove me?

[Yates]

Pine, how did he go from this one day:

VOTE: 4anxi3ty

to this the next day?

I'm thinking we don't go for the 4nx wagon today. I want to come back to it, and I know this is going to sound extremely scummy, but I don't think that his wagon should go through to a lynch today.

THIS is why I am thinking 4nx was his cop result. I see what you are saying about kortul, though, and acknowledge that he is the other possible innocent return.

PE:
Also what 4nx said.

[Yates]

You also have to consider the fact that he had a Town read on kortul day 1 and VOTED for 4nx day 1. Descent would have had no reason to investigate kortul and EVERY reason to investigate 4nx. If he had received a guilty, you know he would have just come out and said it instead of pussy footing around like he did. My only conclusion is that he investigated 4nx, got an innocent, and didn't want to reveal himself as cop.

[Yates]

If there would be no support for this wagon at all, and nothing changes, between theam and Pine i will vote Pine, since 4nxi3ty, Mindgamer and you support this wagon, and both Yates and theam are not there.

I can't speak for theam - whom I am voting for so good luck with the Yates+theam buddy team theory - but *I* am not on the Pine wagon because I don't think it's the best play for today.

On a side note, this is your second tunnel on Town in a row. You are also avoiding the Theam-scum discussion once again. What's up?

[Yates]

Yates, what theam-scum discussion you are talking about? Pine is voting theam based on a meta reasons, you are testing someone else theory - really convenient stance, it allows you to avoid building any case and fly under radar.

Actually, you are right. I owe you that much. I have been finding Theam scummy but didn't realize that I haven't been doing a better job of point out his scum behavior. This is all I have so far:

Post 331 - I had Theam as my 2nd scum read then he went pretty much inactive and I got distracted by the whole Pine-Slandaar deal.

Post 427 - I had my scum suspects as 4nx [whom I now consider Town], Slandaar [who feels Townier today], Descent [who was a cop], and Theam then got talked into the Elmo wagon

Descent and Theam are setting themselves up nicely to be lynched, I can agree with you there. There has been no pro-Town activity/content from either slot and the little content they have posted has been quite terrible. This is a discussion to be had tomorrow, though, as Elmo really did slip.

Something worth bringing up again:
MoI's post 451 - forgot about this but he listed Theam, Descent/4nx ["unlikely to be scum together"], Elmo, and Pine

And also this:

Elmo – rocketed to the top for reasons I will elaborate in a case in the next 48 hours.
Descent – play today has consisted of lurking out pressure
TheAm – play today continued my scum reads
Slandaar – jumps to the top of list if Elmo is scum.
Pine – Only makes sense if Slandaar and TheAm are both Town

If I subscribe to the theory that MoI would include one of his scum buddies in his "suspect list," he has Theam and Pine listed in both posts. I would be inclined to believe that 1 of those two would be scum and I have Theam as the scummier read.

[Yates]

Yates, your case on theam are the posts where you mention that you suspect him???

No. Read the first line. I said I agreed with you that I hadn't really addressed Theam all that extensively. I then showed where I mentioned him in passing but always as an ancillary lynch target, nullifying your argument that my Theam suspicion seemingly arose out of thin air. I'm putting my case together now, though it is lacking in an abundance of substance due to a dearth of Theam posts.

The weightiest portion of my argument will involve the MoI "reads" mentioned in the previous post, which is why I included them there.

[Yates]

I'm not claiming till you agree to be third.

Seems like a reasonable request... Or even second.

[Yates]

Can anybody explain the logic behind it or link me to the successful examples from their games? Thanks in advance.

The idea is to try to use massclaim to catch scum in a fake claim. You typically do a massclaim in order from scummiest to least scummy [typically confTown].

I can't link you to a massclaim win for Town as the ones I was part of were eaten by Tigers. In one we caught someone claiming Coroner who was CCed. The Counterclaimer was able to prove they were the coroner and scum was lynched. In games where scum are given fake claims, it can be much harder. At that point you have to look at the claims on the table and try to determine who is most likely to be lying.

The reason you wait until LYLO is because, as you have already seen, scum learns all the PR's. So it's a risky play and Town has to hope that the remaining roles work out in such a way that they can catch the scum and protect enough Town to get the win.

[Yates]

Actually, here's an example: I replaced in to Blood Bowl. Once Dazzy places his vote we go into night and the game is essentially over. We are in a situation where there is one scum, one sk, and two Town left. The massclaim bought us today and our only chance at winning.

[Yates]

OK

Magna makes case on Elmo
Magnas Case

Pine reads said case and his next post is...

If we can't agree on 4nx or

Slandaar

, there's been a lot of support for TheAm.

New Support for Elmo wagon appears, pine ignores it and unvotes me, votes theam and says Elmo can be re-examined? Pines scum.

I'm not following your logic. Pine says he would prefer an 4nx [pre-confTown] or Slandaar lynch. It makes sense he would still want you dead today. Also, how does his decision to not vote for Elmo make him scum? Wouldn't the easy thing to do be to vote for a Town lynch that has support?

[Yates]

That's *possible* but that means you think theam is Town??

[Yates]

Why aren't you voting Theam, then? If you think Theam is scum and Pine is protecting him, vote Theam and see if Pine will follow through on his promise. It seems pretty easy to me. What am I missing?

[Yates]

You trying to secretively push my lynch, knowing 4nx will quickhammer before any connections can be learned from it

Is that at me or Slandaar?

[Yates]

The part where I would be voting theam on mainly associative tells to pine?

Does not seem good.

If that's the case, then why would you vote Theam is Pine votes Theam? This is the part I'm not following. I don't see how the order you two vote for someone [anyone - not just Theam] makes a difference.

[Yates]

if/not is

why would you vote Theam

if

Pine votes Theam...

[Yates]

Why is he passing the buck back to me if hes town? it makes absolutely no sense.

Unless he's calling a Slandaar/Theam scum team and you are calling a Pine/Theam scum team. Then it would make as much sense for Pine to want you to vote first as it does for you to vote first.

This is why I keep stumbling on your logic. You say things that seem to make sense but they don't hold up under scrutiny.

Outside of this interaction and the MoI post - what is

the most damning

case for Pine scum? I'm not 100% sold on Pine Town but I still think there is a better play. From my perspective, I am VERY interested in seeing if EITHER of you will vote Theam. The results of those actions and Theam's flip will be chock full of information.

[Yates]

@Pine - why did you unvote Theam if Theam is your biggest scum read?

[Yates]

What's interesting about this is that I

also

gave Pine a test. I was "testing" 4nx's theory that Pine is scum buddies with Theam. If that wagon had gotten to L-2, I would have unvoted and taken a look at how the wagon had formed. My feeling is if Theam were Town, scum wouldn't have a problem voting for Theam so L-2 could have been achieved with little drama. The fact that it never made it to L-2 is telling in and of itself. At this point, I have to say that I'm leaning towards 4nx being right. HOWEVER, depending on how the night shakes out, Pine can always be the focus of tomorrow's investigation. There is more evidence incriminating Theam right now, so I'm comfortable with a Theam lynch first. Obviously, the order doesn't matter so why not vote for the one with the most blood on his hands, so to speak?

[Yates]

No, it never got there as Pine unvoted first.

[Yates]

I wait in anticipation for your amazing wagon analysis!

1. Theam called an 4nx/Descent scum team [189]
2. Jumped on the Pizza wagon agreeing with a poster that called him scum [214]
3. Given today's context, you will see why post 726 is very telling. He's been calling Slandaar scum but backpeddaled BIG TIME when Pine was thrown in as Slandaar's scum buddy.
4. No one else was willing to jump on the Theam wagon.

Pine voting Theam now is very interesting and puts the spotlight back on Slandaar.

This is the situation I was hoping for. I'm 99.9% sure Theam is scum. I just can't figure out his buddy/buddies.

[Yates]

2 votes is L-2

Well look at that. You're right. In any case, I was waiting for 3 people to be on the wagon so I guess L-1. I didn't realize we lost so many people.

[Yates]

I think we all know the ending so it's pretty anticlimactic.

[Yates]

Lynch Yates tomorrow plz

If you're Town I will self-vote.

[Yates]

4nx - I would prefer if you claimed LAST and set the order from scummiest to least scummy. You are the closest thing to confTown we have.

[Yates]

Guys? Are we still playing this game?

[Yates]

Wait. What do we have left? Two Town, an SK, and a Scum? I was just in this situation and we got boned so I don't want history repeating.

[Yates]

Yeah. I'd like to hear/make claims before discussing anything further.

PE: No claims from any of us.

[Yates]

Really, you don't need to know any more than that in order to claim. Unless you are trying to hide something?

[Yates]

Actually, Senjai, why did you even ask that question?

[Yates]

Let me consolidate my thoughts before any claiming occurs please. Just, give me some hours.

This is the problem I have;

why

do you need time to consolidate your thoughts? We are going to claim regardless because we are in lylo [or possibly already lost the game]. What do you need to think about before claiming?

This is not sitting well with me.

[Yates]

This is BS. It takes all of 60 seconds to replace into a game and give a real role claim.

[Yates]

37 hours.

Screw it.

@Senjai - you have 7 hours to post. If I don't see something up by then, I'm voting for you and giving kortul the win. I don't even care which of you is SK and which is scum.

@4nx - don't role reveal. As far as these chuckle heads know, one [or both?] of us is BP or Avenger or PGO.

[Yates]

What's up, Senjai? I see you posting all over this site - except here. And the crazy part is, all you had to do was roleclaim.

Spoiler:

by Senjai
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:21 pm

Forum: Theme Park
Topic: Quack Mafia - Day 1! Deadline: May 7th
Replies: 164

I've stolen too much time from my employer trying to puzzle out these feuds. I'm going to take a shot at this, and give it some more thought when I get home. Vote: manho His early posts aren't what bother me. It's the following: lol, i usually don't provide reasons for votes/unvotes, especially on ...

Jump to post

by Senjai
Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:08 pm

Forum: The Road to Rome
Topic: Newbie 1229 - Day 2
Replies: 100

Vote: Lane For reasons Nachomamma stated.

Jump to post

by Senjai
Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:59 pm

Forum: The Road to Rome
Topic: Newbie 1229 - Day 2
Replies: 100

Nobody died last night?

Jump to post

by Senjai
Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:48 am

Forum: Little Italy
Topic: Mini 1332 (Day 1)
Replies: 52

In post 3, Timeater wrote:Sup.

I'm scum, vote for me.

Vote: Timeater



ezpz VOTE: Timeater

Jump to post

by Senjai
Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:46 am

Forum: General Discussion
Topic: Autistic Child Bullied By Teachers - Please Read.
Replies: 21

In post 4, crypto wrote:also its this dudes fault he named his kid akian




Not really appropriate.

Jump to post

by Senjai
Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:03 pm

Forum: General Discussion
Topic: Autistic Child Bullied By Teachers - Please Read.
Replies: 21

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfkscHt9 ... ure=colike This is about a teacher and their care aids being caught by a childs father abusing and mistreating the children they were charged with protecting. This child has autism and others in his class have similar special needs as well. He had d...

Jump to post

by Senjai
Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:06 am

Forum: Little Italy
Topic: Mini 1326: Mansion Mafia (Day 1)
Replies: 534

In post 532, FakeGod wrote:I do not like Senjai's attempt at hammer.

@Senjai: So, you admit that you attempted to hammer without a claim from PB?



Yes - what would make you think he would offer one.

Jump to post

by Senjai
Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:21 pm

Forum: Little Italy
Topic: Mini 1315 - Wizarding World Of Hiplop's Mafia Game!
Replies: 794

Let me consolidate my thoughts before any claiming occurs please. Just, give me some hours.

Jump to post

by Senjai
Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:19 pm

Forum: Little Italy
Topic: Mini 1326: Mansion Mafia (Day 1)
Replies: 534

EBWOP: Sorry it was CMAR who i was explaining to. Also your bolded part made it look like you originally had your vote on PB in the first place which you didnt. So its not like making it bold will make everyone follow suit. You're word isn't law. I also agree with Ninjas last post.

Jump to post

by Senjai
Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:15 pm

Forum: Little Italy
Topic: Mini 1326: Mansion Mafia (Day 1)
Replies: 534

Hope that explanation suffices for now until i can analyse the replacements. Worst part of the post by far. You're that sure he's scum? The only thing that's bad about him is that he ignores things. Nothing good, but nothing seriously scummy. This wagon isn't worth it anymore. that's right bitches....

Jump to post

by Senjai
Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:42 pm

[Yates]

Nope - Ready to claim

What took you so long? Real question.

[Yates]

Looks like Yates has hard time trying to figure out whom to kill at night, so decided to do half of the work during the day by voting someone out.

Yeah. That's why I voted for.... oh. Wait a sec. No one.

Also, you can drop the shen's, kortul. You are confScum. I just don't know if you are mafia or SK. But we will get into that in a bit.

[Yates]

During night 3 i shot Pine.

Wait a minute. If you are vig, then that would mean there is only 1 scum left? Also, I have to go back and look at kill flavors. I was 99% sure there was an SK due to "knife" appearing in the kills.

Town Doctor

Who did your slot protect each night? Mod should be able to answer for you.

[Yates]

Can you answer my question to you first?

[Yates]

I'll tell you why that was pertinent. I'm going to call BS on your claim is why.

Here's how you were caught:
1.

Kortul is Descent's Cop clear. How is that a difficult concept?

THIS was scum-Pine's attempt at clearing you over 4nx. At that point in the game, 4nx was a serious lynch candidate and Pine had Town-cred. I asked you what you thought of this and you were evasive.

2. Why would you shoot Pine after spending the

entire

day phase trying to get ME lynched? This isn't a guess, kortul. You actually said AFTER the hammer;

Yates most suspicious

and also [prehammer]

Slandaar, i am sure that Yates is scum, so lynching him is my priority for today

3. This is where you incriminate yourself:

I hope everyone realizes, that if we mislynch today, and during the night SK kills town, and mafia kills SK, the game is over?

You claim there is an SK in this post. Yet, if we look at what happened the previous night, how many deaths were there? Two. Not THREE. Two. You now claim YOU shot MoI that night? Please explain to me how you account for that SK if you shot someone and scum shot someone?

Boom. You are now confirmed scum.

Bonus points for cheerleading the Elmo lynch as the guy that "found" Elmo's "scum slip."
Bonus points for calling me "neutral leaning Town" [post 412] until you needed a new target following your Elmo mislynch. Convenient that it is the only person to see through your bullshit early on.

[Yates]

Really, the only reason I'm not voting for you right this second is because:

1. I don't know what to make of Senjai's claim - this is pretty easy to fake and
2. I want hear from 4nx

@Senjai - were you alerted of any saves?

[Yates]

Kortul, can we just drop the pretense, please? Like I said, I

just

went through this. PLEASE.

You are confirmed scum. I just want to talk to 4nx about Senjai's claim.

[Yates]

So stop the act and claim, or just give up.

I will leave my claim up to 4nx. He's the one in the cross-hairs as conf Town. If

he

wants me to claim, I'll do it.

[Yates]

Guys, I'll be V/LA again this weekend. I have a beer I brewed in a competition a couple of hours away.

[Yates]

Does this mean you believe both claims? I agree that Senjai's claim is equally suspicious.

How many scum does everyone think we have left?

Kortul - if you vigged the other night, why do you think there were only two kills but two scum left?

[Yates]

I want to hear Yates claim.

Now that 4nx has claimed VT and you have claimed Doc I guess it doesn't really matter. I'm also a VT.

Did you want me to tell everybody that we have Vig around instead of SK?

if we have one scum, i am lost.

No. *IF* you are a vig, you were right to keep it to yourself until today. What isn't adding up is that you claimed there were two scum parties TODAY:

we cannot apply any pressure by voting now, especially when there is a possibility of two scum parties

You never answered why you would say that. *IF* you are vig and you killed Pine [as you claim] and someone else killed Slandaar, why would you think there are two scum parties?

Also, there were only two deaths on night 2. If you killed MoI [as you claim] and someone else killed Mastin,

why would you think there are two scum parties?

This is also why I asked Sanjai if he had any saves. If he was able to confirm a save on 4nx last night, for example, then I'd buy it.

But you want us to believe that you are a Vig who was 2 for 2 on scum shots AND that two nights in a row the doctor had a save or two scum targeted the same person? The probability of this occurring is astronomically low. PLUS it doesn't make sense to have a Vig in a game with a JOAT as a JOAT would

also

be a one-shot vig. That makes no sense.

Can you explain any of this, kortul?

[Yates]

Impatience is not a reason to vote dude.

Are you not reading the game? I *didn't* vote for you. That was an empty threat to evoke a response. I think you need to reread this page. Seriously. Reread it and start weighing in on the conversation.

[Yates]

By "this page" I mean page 33 starting at post 800.

[Yates]

why not no-lynch, since there is a possibilty of having two scum left?

This is what I ran into the last game. There were 4 of us and we thought we had an SK and a Scum left. It turns out, we only had SK and a "secret" miller [he didn't know he was miller] left. We lost because we didn't lynch the SK. Also, if we *did* have scum with the SK, SK would have killed scum and scum would have killed Town [since SK is almost always BP in order to prevent a nobody wins situation] and Town would have lost anyway.

[Yates]

Didnt say you did. But you were going to if I didn't post in 7 hours. That is what I meant.

???
Look at the time stamp. I didn't vote for you despite the fact you didn't post for almost a full day. Are you skimming the thread or intentionally lying?

[Yates]

That should read "I didn't vote for you despite the fact you didn't post for almost a full day

after I made my 7 hour threat

.

[Yates]

Yates, why you were so reluctant to claim VT?

As stated earlier, I was convinced you and Senjai were scum. I also assumed 4nx was the Doc so when Senjai rred Doc I thought 4nx would counter. When 4nx didn't counter, I didn't see how my VT claim would help Town. I was starting to set up a bomb claim but that would have only [theoretically] saved me over night.

This part:

if we do have SK, then there is also at least one mafia left

I agree with. So we either have an SK and Scum or 1 scum and you are confirmed vig.

To the first part of your argument, I think the opposite *has* to be true. Think about it. Let's say you are SK and Senjai is Scum. Tonight, you kill 4nx and Senjai kills me. How would tomorrow resolve? You would have a no lynch as it would be 1v1 and it would go to night. If it goes to night, you both try to kill each other. Who wins? You cross kill and no one wins the game? No. One of you *has* to be BP.

On the flip side, if there is only 1 scum I have no idea what to do. We can no lynch and let the night resolve itself but my concern is a bad vig shot [if you actually are vig] is exactly the same as if we had an SK and scum left and game over in the morning.

So, I'm trying to weigh the merits of a lynch vs a no lynch based on how many scum parties we actually have left.

[Yates]

K. I can agree to this and just hope there is only 1 scum.

vote: no lynch

[Yates]

Why would you

vote: no lynch

?

[Yates]

Just wondering, Yates, did you really think that Mindgamer would make such strange choices to cure night 1 and 2?

No. But I also couldn't let you live or it would be 2:1 against me with me confirmed SK/Scum. *shrug* Once 4nx decided to no lynch, I was out of options. I think I played my role about as well as I could have. Town needing to rely on SK vs Scum cross-kill is... you know...