Mini 1315 - Wizarding World Of Hiplop's Mafia Game!

[4nxi3ty]

vote: kortul

[4nxi3ty]

4nx, why did you point out that Descent withholds his vote, and how did you know such things?

4nx having meta'd Descent

you already have the answer to half of your question, the othe half can be found on pg.5 of the archive

[4nxi3ty]

So on

page 4

, you noticed someone

hadn't posted

yet so you went through a bunch of his games to determine that he frequently doesn't do this? That seems so fishy to me. I can't quite put my finger on it but I really don't like it.

I noticed Descent was getting called out for

not voting

. On

pg.5

I explained why I defended him.

Explain how you came to the conclusion that was fishy.

Also, did you do a thorough read of the archive or just skim?

[4nxi3ty]

4nxi3ty, care to share your thoughts behind the votes i've mentioned?

pressure votes

now that I have your attention:

I would like to see more input from Pizzadudes7, theamatuer and Yates, quiet town sooner or later becomes dead town.

why haven't you considered that they could be quiet scum and why not more input from descent, rang tangler, or horrordude?

unvote, vote: ICEninja

im getting scumvibes from his attack on me. His tone suggest more of a "I need to secure this lynch" rather than "What is 4nx's alignment?". Dont get me wrong town need to secure lynches too, but it something I would expect much later in the game after everyone has checked in.

[4nxi3ty]

@kortul, Do you think my vote was OMGUS?

[4nxi3ty]

by looking at the reactions to the vote. pressure doesn't strictly come from the explanation of a vote, it mostly comes from conflicts in the environment and the threat of a lynch.

my question was more a comment on your grouping and why you specifically talked to pizzadude, theam, and yates as if they were town despite their not being anything to analyze about them.

What, specifically, don't you agree with and how is it overreacting?

[4nxi3ty]

2) How do people feel about 4nxi3ty meta reading Descent to defend him when there was no actual push on Descent?

there was more of a push on descent than anyone else in the game at the time. and I did a meta reading on him shortly after his random questions, don't assume I did a meta reading just to defend him.

meh we should be focusing on yates and theam, but it looks like it will be me and descent for awhile. I'll go more in-depth later on yates, theam; and my shift from kortul and iceninja to them.

[4nxi3ty]

there was more of a push on descent than anyone else in the game at the time.

Not for the reason of him lacking a vote. It was mentioned by one person in passing.

so whats your point?

his wagon was gaining momentum for random questions and not voting.
I thought he was town and decided to defend him; since upon reviewing his meta, it was painfully clear he wouldn't defend himself. Should I not defend my townreads when they don't defend themselves?

[4nxi3ty]

i wanna wait til, atleast, a few more people get back and give their take before moving forward in a new direction.

also gonna wait for kortul to finish his meta research on me and descent before answering his questions.

[4nxi3ty]

I don't see how holding something back serves town. Unless you have nothing yet?

true it doesn't exactly serve town as a whole yet it

[4nxi3ty]

*yet it will help me establish better reads on a few people so i can know where to best apply pressure

[4nxi3ty]

So I wanted to shift focus to yates and theam to pressure them into more activity, and I am reasonably comfortable with my reads of kortul and iceninja. also wanted to take a look at who would focus on one over the other if they were presented with two options.

Yates is null to me. I didn't like his vote of descent pre-crash yet I like his pressure today.

Theam's vote, on the other hand, reeks of oppurtunistic scum; plus I expected him to provide more content as town since that was the case last time I played with him.

Descent did post a terrible vote, however I believe scum would be more concious of making posts like that and wouldn't really want to attack the one person defending them. Pre-crash his willingness to consider voting and not immediately placate his attackers gave off town vibes

Unvote, Vote: Theam

[4nxi3ty]

Tierce, thoughts on current events?

[4nxi3ty]

Should I not defend my townreads when they don't defend themselves?

It depends on a playing style, imho, you can either clearly state this is your townread, or defend him.

The question is, why he was your townread?

You reviewed the meta of Descent, found out he is always shy with votes. Does it make him town?

If not, what does? And is he still your townread?

Still waiting for the answers...

pay attention please:

Descent did post a terrible vote, however I believe scum would be more concious of making posts like that and wouldn't really want to attack the one person defending them. Pre-crash his willingness to consider voting and not immediately placate his attackers gave off town vibes

4nxi3ty

- slightly leaning scum. He is active, which is good, but i am disappointed by his "in-depth" analysis.

I expanded more on my null yatesread than you did with your yatesread or any of your other nullreads.

I hear the comments of gorckat and Tierce, and can see their logic

when gorckat and tierce defend descent, their comments are logical yet mine get thrown out the window

[4nxi3ty]

4nxi3ty you defended him preemptively before the crash, which is scummy. You seem to have a vested interest in keeping suspicion off of Descent. Gorckat, who makes a decent counter argument, at least looked at the situation after his wagon picked up steam.

I defended descent after his wagon picked up pre-crash, we've been through this already<.< also I see nothing scummy about actively shifting focus off of my townreads and onto my scumreads.

[4nxi3ty]

why did you think Descent wouldn't defend himself?

you saw his meta... it was pretty clear his effort level wouldn't change even with a wagon on him.

[4nxi3ty]

At this point I wouldn't mind policy lynching someone, except I would only want to lynch rang's since I had decent townreads on rife and tierce.

still wanting a theam lynch or, at least, a wagon.

[4nxi3ty]

read again please.

That post clearly shows that I do care who is lynched. Evidence by the fact that I didnt want tierce or rife's slot lynched, only comfortable with a rang plynch. Further proven by me still wanting theam lynched

[4nxi3ty]

pine, what is your take of the game pre-crash and post-crash? in particular theam's own hop onto my wagon?

[4nxi3ty]

Any thoughts on any other players?

[4nxi3ty]

I wanted to hear a little more on why rang- I believe somewhere town reads on the others were suggested. I'm curious if his scummy vibe was similar to mine.

yep the point you made about rang pre-crash was sound, not definitive but good enough to make me comfortable about rang's lynch if we decided to take a policy lynch route.

[4nxi3ty]

townreads:(these townreads will more than likely not change for the rest of the game)
minegamer
gorckat
kortul
elmo
descent

scumreads:
theam
ice

theam is obvscum at this point imo.

ice trying to present events in the archive as scummy and factual when there are pages missing surrounding the events is incrediby scummy; plus him completely ignoring theam's scumminess and only pushing the two biggest wagons this entire time.

[4nxi3ty]

My reasoning is that 4nx attacked Descent in the beginning,

1.then retracted it

, then claimed Descent was newbtown and was defending him. when GreyICE pushed this, 4nx responding by voting him,

2.but when people started pushing him on this, he immediately stopped that track and went on the people that pushed him.

I'm decently sure 4nx is scum, and a

3.4nx/descent scumteam is also likely

1. this is false. I never made any such statement of retraction, I never even said Descent was scum. In the beginning I said something along the line of "I have seen scum use RQS to ease into D1, we'll see if that is the case for Descent".
2. Kortul and ICEninja were the ones who were pushing me, you placed a nice quiet vote and went back to active lurking. As soon as I saw your vote I realized you were way more likely to be scum. I never once retracted my ICEscumread and never went on to attacking kortul.
3.explain

[4nxi3ty]

And that makes him obvscum?

I said theam was obvscum IMO; I played a game with him as town and his play here is not matching up with his play there.

[4nxi3ty]

I do want to point out two things stated in consecutive posts however:

yep the point you made about rang pre-crash was sound

ice trying to present events in the archive as scummy and factual when there are pages missing surrounding the events is incrediby scummy

While I know this isn't directly contradictory, as one was done pre crash and the other is regarding events pre crash, it seems a tad hypocritical to me. Not worth a vote, but worth noting.

nope, not even close; Your pushing my lynch on the basis of something that happened that you weren't around for and don't have all the information. Me and gorckat was discussing something in which we both were around at the time.

[4nxi3ty]

4nxi3ty: Scum, because, while trying to show that his partner, theamatuer, is being opportunistic, he is also being opportunistic by sneaking up and lodging a knife in his partner's back. A nice job of bussing your partner.

meh looking at associative tells before any scumflips is weak scumhunting sooo good luck with this.

[4nxi3ty]

I don't like the idea of lynching someone on the basis of one post.

While I do agree pizza's significantly lacked content, I like how he placed kortul as a scumread; I may not agree with that read but if he was lazy scum I would expect him to follow the general flow of the majority and throw kortul on the townside of the spectrum

[4nxi3ty]

Hmm yeh I might be wrong about people basing this lynch on one post, just felt that way since pizzadude went from could be scum to lynch-worthy after that post.

The majority of his reads may follow the flow but his descent and kortul reads shows that he took the time to construct his own thoughts about their alignments. The same can be said about his theory of me and theamateur bussing.

I really can't be a part of this lynch when two of my scumreads jump on it like there is no tommorow... even if a no-lynch is a result.

[4nxi3ty]

Yates, it was more about helping the mod and game environment.

..."you gonna need to fight an uphill battle to convince me"... fuck that.

I have been fighting uphill battles this entire game; First with my descentread and than my iceread and I can even get a break with my theamread( "Yeah theam is scummy but so is 4nx cause there is no way he could be town scumhunting... they must be bussin") "Pine does a good job explaining the pizzawagon is scummy but 4nx is just scum looking for towncred" - fuckthatnoise

[4nxi3ty]

nope I agree the pizzawagon is fishy, and town can buddy up too.

A policylynch can help or hurt depending on the alighnment of the lynchee. I didn't even suggest that we should policy lynch, I was responding to others with who would be an acceptable pl to me; In the very same post I even implied I would prefer a theam lynch over a pl

[4nxi3ty]

You know what lets find out if me and theam are bussing.

@everyone, switch your vote to 4nxi3ty or theamatuer and lets see where the chips fall.

[4nxi3ty]

pine is town stuck in confirmation bias, yates could be in the same place.

All of my earlier reads still stand except my ice and kortul reads are wavering.

There are my final reads, now hurry up and lynch me so we clear up this bussing nonense and than hopefuly people will trust my descent, pizza and theam reads, and than I can concentrate on a game where I don't have to deal with fellow townies that get stuck in confirmation bias.

[4nxi3ty]

I won't comment on Pizzadudes7 reads, i even considered him being a Jester for a moment. For me he is now a scum having fun (with a

slight chance of being town

who doesn't care about the game at all). UNVOTE: VOTE: Pizzadudes7

ftr ^this is why my kortul read is wavering

still think kortul is likely town just someone that shouldnt be forgotten later on

[4nxi3ty]

Thats fine, though I really wish you would reconsider what gorckat, tierce, and me have said about descent.

[4nxi3ty]

Hell, 4nxi3ty is driving me crazy. On one hand, first he started talking about no-lynch, then later suggested less visible scheme of spreading votes "switch your vote to 4nxi3ty or theamatuer and lets see where the chips fall." Both ideas are really bad.

What so bad about forcing a no-lynch considering the current game state and the strong possibility of pizza being town?

---

Last time I saw theam play as town he was very active and very involved in the discussion. Today he has done nothing but jump on the biggest wagons, proddodge, and agree with the opinions of others.

[4nxi3ty]

No lynch gives us no information and no shot at catching scum. That's all. Other than that, it's a great idea.

This a myth. While we do have to lynch scum in order to win, we do not have to lynch everyday to achieve that goal. Lynching someone in some cases will only bring scum closer to their goal while minmizing town losses can give us just enough time to figure out who is scum(ergo. no-lynch>mislynch). As far as information goes I do have to concede that the threat of a lynch is the most effective way to pressure, however, it is a mistake to think that the day's discussion will be more informative because someone flipped(also information can still be obtained without seeing a flip).The main benefit is that your list of suspects is diminished, which would narrow anyway with the scum nk.

[4nxi3ty]

vote: TheAm

Pine, since you think me and theam are bussingscum, why did you choose to vote me and push my lynch instead of his?

[4nxi3ty]

just asking you to explain your thought process...

how is it stupid and irrelevant?

[4nxi3ty]

It's irrelevant because

why

I chose to vote you over TheAm

doesn't matter

. I think you're both scum, and whichever of you we don't lynch today, we're lynching tomorrow.

It's stupid because the above is pretty obvious.

well at least humor me and explain why you think I am a better lynch; cause from my perspective it looks like you were just going with the lynch with the most support. It also leads me to believe that your trying to stall theamateur's lynch for one more day.

[4nxi3ty]

Theam's vote, on the other hand, reeks of oppurtunistic scum; plus I expected him to provide more content as town since that was the case last time I played with him.

Last time I saw theam play as town he was very active and very involved in the discussion. Today he has done nothing but jump on the biggest wagons, proddodge, and agree with the opinions of others.

[4nxi3ty]

*yawn*

Theam's vote, on the other hand, reeks of oppurtunistic scum; plus I expected him to provide more content as town since that was the case last time I played with him.

Last time I saw theam play as town he was very active and very involved in the discussion. Today he has done nothing but jump on the biggest wagons, proddodge, and agree with the opinions of others.

confirm vote: theam

[4nxi3ty]

kortul, your suggestion that I am illogical is making me cringe. (food for thought: would you try to force a no-lynch when you see a mislynch occuring?)

another thing to think about is that reads changing overnight is quite common for town.

---

been waiting on my theam-wagon since D1

[4nxi3ty]

he is going to continue to do nothing if there is only one person in the thread calling for his lynch.

[4nxi3ty]

sigh, you don't chew your food, you wolf it down in one bite.

[4nxi3ty]

yates, what makes you think slandaar's play is similar? To me the way slandaar handles pressure in each game is completely different.

[4nxi3ty]

Last time I saw theam play as town he was very active and very involved in the discussion. Today he has done nothing but jump on the biggest wagons, proddodge, and agree with the opinions of others.

Do you remember the game name or number (or a link)? I actually might have time this week to meta him.

here is the link

Hey, let's lynch the person who is V/LA and has no chance of defending himself! Surely that is the most protown thing to do and will not backfire on us in any way possible

why do you assume that you will be lynched during v/la? And you've had plenty of time to defend/explain your actions over the course of two day phases.

---

so looking for associations tells since I am not getting much from theamateur or the slandaar vs. yates fiasco(gives off townvtown vibes):

people uncharacteristically defending theam

no one

people potentially soft bussing

pine
MoI
yates
-all have stated theam is scum yet have chosen to vote someone else instead
-pine's posts have bugged me the most today. his stupid and drunk implication/adhom attack on me did not sit well, not sure if it is scum motivated or just a personality thing. Also, him trying to pass off his decision to vote me instead of them as arbitrary is scummy to me because he cleary chose to vote me both days; if it was just once I could believe it was arbitrary but when you make the same decision twice it is definitely a conscious choice.

slandaar
-did vote theam briefly but went right back to focussing on yates and elmo

people potentially hard bussing

I don't see any hard busses
- I guess from the perspective of others I would fit into this category

[4nxi3ty]

are you telling us outright you have no other scum reads independent of TheAm and thus you are limited completely to relational reads?

nope, just that TheAm is a confident scumread of mine and all thats left is finding his buddy(s). confident that kortul, descent, and mindgamer are town; not so much on elmo yet more so than yates, slandaar, you, and pine.

MoI, how confident are you in your ability to read newb behavior and your ability to distinguish scumlurking from townlurking?

[4nxi3ty]

nope, just that TheAm is a confident scumread of mine and all thats left is finding his buddy(s). confident that kortul, descent, and mindgamer are town; not so much on elmo yet more so than yates, slandaar, you, and pine.

This is an infuriating statement.

How can you *possibly* be confident in MindGamer being Town? [NOT rhetorical] How can you be confident in

anything

Mindgamer related when the dude hasn't posted in 5 days? How do you make reads on people without content?

Rife was a strong townread for me pre-crash, minegamer's entrance into this game was also very townish; him not being here for a few days isn't going to change those reads.

This thread is riddled with Descent cases and you haven't spoken up or presented evidence to shoot down a single one. How can you sit there and tell us you have a Town read on Descent when he is ALSO not posting content? [NOT rhetorical]

Spoiler: descent

Descent did post a terrible vote, however I believe scum would be more concious of making posts like that and wouldn't really want to attack the one person defending them. Pre-crash his willingness to consider voting and not immediately placate his attackers gave off town vibes

Descent did post a terrible vote, however I believe scum would be more concious of making posts like that and wouldn't really want to attack the one person defending them. Pre-crash his willingness to consider voting and not immediately placate his attackers gave off town vibes

Similar to my thoughts on him, both pre-crash and terrible vote.

It looked to me like those citing his vote terrible hung on the word "scummy" and ignored the meaning of his other words. I read an uncertainty about kortul, as well as 4nx. Hanging the vote the way he did was sloppy, and I agree scum would not have been so careless.

I'll be back to review everything in-between when the domestic situation allows for it here.

Wow. Norman is so helpful. Is that an "/out"?
Pre-crash, Descent was badgered on not placing votes. I'm going out on a limb and proposing that Descent scum would not have placed a vote to relieve attention on himself because it was already on him- he'd continue to play to his meta and vote late in the day once "certain". Descent-town, however, would be interested in modifying play right away and so makes a vote to try to get the handle of the whole 'votes make pressure' angle.

I agree with gorckat. Descent seems to be trying to be more protown when prompted to it, and the way he worded his vote is not nearly as scummy as he is being painted. The fact that he is willing to vote for pressure even though he is not certain his vote is on scum is a towntell; scum would likely construct the whole thing in a different way and shelter on his meta. Willingness to be protown after the crash = good.

plus I don't see the validity with the points be brought up against descent today.

[4nxi3ty]

How 4nx is avoiding the elephant in the room.

The only elephant in the room that I see people avoiding is a TheAm wagon.

Don't really see whats so important about you vs slandaar, yates vs. slandaar, or moi vs. you.

[4nxi3ty]

what is with this sk nonsense? and why haven't people considered the extra kill could come from ICEninja's JOAT abilities?... ICE could've been a hider who hid behind gorckat or a weak doctor who targetted scum.

[4nxi3ty]

meh that post doesn't really indicate insider inforamtion, elmo could've just assumed that ice was the scumkill cause ice was a more aggressive player. It is similar to how you and slandaar assume elmo has to be scum for believing one person is more likely to be the scumkill.

anyway, getting tired of repeating myself... theam wagon go...

[4nxi3ty]

you are correct MoI, a single game is not significant meta-evidence for a lynch, that is why its only a part of why I am voting him.

has done nothing but jump on the biggest wagons, proddodge, and agree with the opinions of others.

this is all stuff he has done in this game to make me think he is scum.

As for your question about why all the slandaar vs. yates vs. elmo vs. you isn't important to me - all of it felt like one big 'he said she said' scenario, It went along the lines of "You so scum for X" "No U Wrong about X, U scum for being Wrong" "No U Scum" "No U". I can always go back and look at it if one of you four flips scum, but for today I would rather prioritize and get my strongest scumread lynched.

[4nxi3ty]

Magna, what do you think about pine's push on elmo "definitely" knowing there was an sk?

[4nxi3ty]

'he said she said' was more a comment on how this day has played out than any specific posts. I don't really see the scum motivations in the points you brought against elmo and I feel you are vastly overestimating the weight of your case.

This comment clearly shows I haven't avoided takings stances on people who aren't theam:

confident that kortul, descent, and mindgamer are town; not so much on elmo yet more so than yates, slandaar, you, and pine.

Another way of expressing this is:

town

kortul
descent
mindgamer
elmo
yates
slandaar
moi
pine

scum

[4nxi3ty]

If so, then one of 4nx, Descent is probably maf

If we can assume distancing, then decsent/elmo/ 4nx are the most suspicious people on that regard.

can you explain how you arrived to these two conclusions?

And your thoughts on pine would be great.

[4nxi3ty]

If so, then one of 4nx, Descent is probably maf

If we can assume distancing, then decsent/elmo/ 4nx are the most suspicious people on that regard.

can you explain how you arrived to these two conclusions?

And your thoughts on pine would be great.

[4nxi3ty]

town

kortul
slandaar
mindgamer

^these people are not getting lynched ever. NOT NOW NOT EVAWR

yates will probly go up into that section soon, tho:

I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and:

Vote: kortul

*facepalm*

Vote: TheAmateur

We keep getting distracted from TheAm. Time for that to end.

Obvbus is obv.

If both scum, its slandaar/pine anyways so yeah.

*snip*

but first thing first, slandaar

weak bus is predictable.

[4nxi3ty]

^
> slan: can you explain why theam and anx are buddies?
> pine: no I am too lazy
> slan: what if your explanation helps me get a better read?
> pine: I don't care I'll convince you later
tldr-pine: "I don't have any evidence to prove anx and theam are buddies"

Going to read through MoI and his predecessors for some associative tells, but there isn't much there.

I'm kinda done with this game; Pine/theam are the scumteam, either you are going to listen to me or not. Whatever the case I am ready to hammer either if they get to L-1, so if there is still some things you want to discuss keep them at L-2.

[4nxi3ty]

mindgamer seems the most definitive if you're going with that logic. why are you pushing to have kortul confirmed instead of mindgamer?

Mindgamer on the other hand has been a help to the town which is a plus to his town credibility. His posts do seem rather credible and I do see him as town.

4nxi3ty: I did push a lynch on him originally but I don't feel as if it would benefit the town and not really seeing why he would put the kill out on ICEninja. Other than that, I do get the feeling he is town, but not entirely sure. I'll have to get back to him. Neutral leaning town.

Kortul: I didn't like his play for a lot of Day One but he began to seem more town than scum as the game has progressed and I am sticking with that.

[4nxi3ty]

Descent's comment on Mindgamer is clearly based on evaluation. He did not have a D1 scumread that suddenly changed. In the case of 4nx and Kortul, he did. That clearly indicates something

happened overnight

with them.

My read on Kortul has changed as I thought things over, he does look more town than anything else thus far into the game.

this happened D1

you didn't answer my question, why bother pushing kortul as confirmedtown when he is not even close to being lynched?

[4nxi3ty]

Vote: TheAmateur

We keep getting distracted from TheAm. Time for that to end.

Unvote
Vote: Slandaar

Everything else is out the window.

...

[4nxi3ty]

Thanks, will read more about it tomorrow then. So far i trust to

4nxi3ty

and

Mindgamer

, and to Slandaar to some extent (but his opinion i already know). I believe they should have some experience to know whether this is right time (at least 4N), so if both of them agree to massclaim, then i am up to it.

it is too late in the day to massclaim, no time to discuss claims. I would've been okay with a massclaim at the start of the day; it would've been nice to confirm that the second kill is a vig like a suspect. If it is a sk or second mafia, claiming won't really help us, only crosskills will. claiming probably wouldn't hurt either since we already lost the joat and cop. We can massclaim tommorow as long as the vig makes sure not to kill town if we happen to mislynch.

[4nxi3ty]

I had a scumread on 4nx.
+ I have a scumread on TheAm.
+ They were attacking each other.
____________________________
= Bussing

thats not an explanation. that is you saying the what. there is no why in that statement.

[4nxi3ty]

4nxi3ty

- please, tell me your opinion on my case on Yates. Even if you believe that theam and Pine are scum, most likely we have right now some kind of 2+1 scum scenario, so who is third?

I feel the same way about your yates case as I did about the "elmo and descent slips"; You are jumping at shadows. I don't think there is a third scum, most likely the second kill is a vig.

I just said Slandaar was probably scum and someone from MoI's townlist is probably scum

soooo who is scum in MoI's townlist? and why?

also, can you explain your thoughts on pine?

[4nxi3ty]

vote: theamatuer

[4nxi3ty]

I would like to determine the order of claims if no one has any objections and I am willing to claim first.

[4nxi3ty]

yeh we probably should no-lynch depending on whether or not the second kill is an sk or vig.

want to hear more from senjai before deciding the claim order.

[4nxi3ty]

I will RTFT but if someone wants to consolidate any claims made when tigers came or up until now that will be helpful - I'm not being lazy and yes I know I'm going to have to put in some effort here.

ok, I understand your a fresh replacement. We only have nine days to sort through a massclaim so efficiency would go a long way here.

That being said I am going to go ahead with this order of claims:

kortul
senjai
yates
anxiety

[4nxi3ty]

alright well i guess we just move forward with claims...

[4nxi3ty]

not sure why doctor would claim instead of keeping quiet.

yates seems adamant about not claiming so i am going to just go ahead and claim vt.

with a vig and doc claim i think the best thing to do is -

vote: No Lynch

[4nxi3ty]

why not no-lynch, since there is a possibilty of having two scum left?

[4nxi3ty]

1 scum & 1 sk - If we lynch scum we lose via nightkill ergo we no lynch.
1 scum & 1 vig - If we no lynch, vig no kills, we only lose one town ergo we get another day to figure out who is scum with a shorter list of suspects.

sipmle as that. no lynch is our best option.

[4nxi3ty]

vote: no lynch

and vote to end night early.

[4nxi3ty]