Mini 1390: Game Over

[absta101]

UNVOTE:
I'll be here tomorrow.

[absta101]

Fuck! I'll finish the rest tomorrow. I'm on page 5.
Once i've finished reading and become more involved, i'll be more helpful.
Greetings to the players I know.

^Fake. Overdoing it.

Don't see it.

That's no the only plausible explanation. You may have not actually wanted to place your vote there (with possibly both of you being scum), however you were called out for it and then you did.
I'm not a mindreader so I don't know if it was just forgetful or deliberate. I'm currently going with deliberate with a forgetful backup plan.
I realise you will probably argue this back at me, but I still won't know if it is true or not.

I've forgotten to vote as town a few times, no big deal.

but it is a mistake that is more likely to be made as scum than town ergo a scum tell.

Explain this please.

Does anyone else have a serious problem with Sable Tip's post, or is it just me?

Not liking this.
I agree with what Abbadon said post #64.

Do you think that is true for everyone? (it's not)

Do you have any evidence to back this up?
Like I said, i've done this as town.

Doesn't anyone find it odd that his 3 suspicions (Cheery Dog, Abaddon, and Parama) are all suspicious of Radelle (to varying degrees), but he lists Radelle as a neutral read? If I had any confidence whatsoever in my reads, and all 3 of my suspicions were expressing doubt over the same player, that player would be pretty far up my town reads list. I'd expect him to list Radelle as leaning town at the very least.

I agree.
I'm just skimming through .

[absta101]

@Slandaar - What do you think of Tommy?

[absta101]

@Sherlock

Okay, Cheery is probably part of the town for that post. Why would he blatantly state that he's being useless and say he's willing to be lynched for it as Mafia? Mafia's primary goal is to stay alive.

That's very simple WIFOM.
---

@Radelle

- Can you link us to the game(s) you're using to defend C-Dog.

[absta101]

Absta what is your take on Radelle?

She seems town. I had a read through her ISO.
---
VOTE: Abbadon
Not liking post #82. It's fake bs.

Attacks on scum that are just plain bad only give you ways to worm your way out of it by calling foul.

You don't help your scum read unless you don't believe they're scum (anymore). I would have accepted something like "Bad attacks on my scum read makes me doubt my read on him".

Can you explain why what you said is something town should be worried about (so much that they defend their scum reads to avoid it)?

Abbadon's trying to look 'reasonable' which is scummy in this case.

You're still scummy, but I won't abide no-logic attacks just because they're aimed in the right direction. That's hypocrisy of the worst sort, and I won't put up with that.

I don't see this from a town POV. We play to win. If you think someone is attacking "in the right direction" you wouldn't defend your suspect regardless of how bad the attack was.

[absta101]

@Radelle

@Absta: The game hasn't completed yet, to be honest. I did have a quick random gander at Cheery's meta in completed game Open 437 and he seems a lot more active throughout most of the game there, actually. I'm going to backtrack a bit and say his meta is a toss-up for me.

Don't make claims like that anymore unless you can back them up.

Are you okay with me referring to you as "She/her" in a sentence?
---

@Idiotking

Radelle seems town for Post #81 and #105 where she shows that she's checked Parama's "recent posts". Going this far to get someone to contribute without calling them scummy makes little sense from scum's perspective, especially considering Parama is an easy place to keep your vote. Do you agree?
---

@Tommy

absta101's case on Abaddon is guff. He wanted to choose one of the two leading bandwagons apart from his own, so he plumped for this one and then tried to construct a reason.

This attack from you is weak.
What suggested I wanted to choose one of the two leading bandwagons?
Why am I not town who genuinely finds Abbadon scummy?
---

@Abbadon

- I specifically bolded my question so you wouldn't miss it.
Answer it.

[absta101]

@Slandaar - You see Radelle as town yet Cheery as scum.
Does the fact that you and Radelle have opposite reads on Cheery affect your read on Radelle?

[absta101]

1. How can your attack be based "mainly" on my "alignment"?
2. What suggested I wanted to choose one of the two leading waggons?
3. I would agree but him saying "in the right direction" and "hypocrisy" still gives me a bad feeling.

[absta101]

@absta101: How does Post 224 affect your read on Radelle?

Waiting on her response.
---

@Trollie

- Leave Jacob's system out of this, you can discuss it in MD.
I don't see how it's relevant right now.

[absta101]

@Toxic

Why do you constantly pressure me on one or two points that go unanswered, and then blow off 3/4 of the content in my posts with the following excuse (quoted below)? I am not going to give you the satisfaction of addressing every single one of your points when you cannot extend the same courtesy to me.

I need the answer to that question if you want to convince me she's scum. I don't see the scum motivation in her voting Abbadon over someone like Parama.

While I understand the importance of considering all information available, I don't see why you need to wait on her response to take a stance here. Do you not agree that there is a vey clear conflict between those two posts?

I agree that her attack was scummy. I don't see why she would say that after post #184.
UNVOTE:

[absta101]

Trollie consistently says he doesn't have a townread on Cheery, yet consistantly defends his chance of innocence. If trollie genuinely believes Cheery to be town, I understand, but he 'doesn't', so I'm not seeing his reasoning for defending Cheery.

What do you make of post #55 by Trollie?

[absta101]

@Slandaar

Town Posting; But they could be buddies? na, with the amount of heat Radelle has; the very real possibilty she is lynched from her POV means it is very unlikely she defends a buddy so blatantly.

Why is post #186 a town post?
---
@Trollie

(2) for the last time I HAVE NEVER, EVER DECLARED A TOWN READ ON CHEERY next person to say I did this better quote a post of mine where i say anything of the "CD is town" variety (before you go wasting your time--ill give you a hint: i never said anything like that).

Town are more likely to remember their town reads than scum are IMO. This makes you look slightly scummy.
---
P-EDIT: I'm going to ISO trollie to see if his 180 on CD is warranted.

[absta101]

@Cheery

VOTE: Cheery

When people defend me more than I've actually defended myself, it comes across as suspicious as if they want to keep me alive until LYLO and pull a switch on.

Do you have any games where this has happened to you before?

Other than that it's just so much more activity than thetrollie I've played with before where he was town.

Do you have anymore reasons for thinking he's scum or is this it?

---

@Idiot

- Can you replace out please. Your low activity and contributions are hurting us.

[absta101]

No, but unless it's been proven that people that don't even have town reads on me are also town when they're defending me heavily, I'm going to believe that they must be scum and wanting to keep me alive to switch with in LYLO.

I don't fully understand what you're saying here. Unless it's proven that Trollie is town, you think he's scum?

That's a really bad reason to want someone dead. Explain yourself.

[absta101]

I can't see the sense in shooting down all attacks on a null read to be coming from town.

If he has you as a null read that already means he thinks the "scummy" or "towny" things you have done are either non-existent (he doesn't believe them to be scummy/towny) or they're balanced.

I had a look back and I kinda understand the case against him now.

(the only problem would be if I'm a PR - I guess if he believed me to me one then it would make sense to shoot down attacks, but that would also involve having a town read)

Don't do this again...
UNVOTE:
---

@Trollie

In almost every game I've been in there has been a CD-esq player. So far that player has flipped town every time.

Can you provide all this evidence please.
Also, how many games have you been in?

[absta101]

@Trollie

Yes I can. I've been in a fair amount of games. Between 15 and 20 id say. I'd have to go back through all of them to get player names. I can tell u it was RobertMonana in the last game and in my newbie it was PapiBear

Can you link me to a few ISOs please.
---

@Cheery

- What do you make of post #304?
---

@Idiot

- Looking forward to that wall post.

[absta101]

lol wtf?

[absta101]

I would actually lynch that ^^

[absta101]

@Slandaar - That took you awhile to answer. I'm surprised.
---
VOTE: Kwll

I am afraid I am inclinded to side with you absta in this case,

Why "afraid"? Why not just "I agree"?

[absta101]

absta101, what do you think of Deltabacon?

Town.

[absta101]

Why?

Mainly due to his voting pattern. He doesn't jump on large waggons.

Sorry, I was mistaken. He's a null read.

[absta101]

VOTE: Trollie

[absta101]

VOTE: Kwll
Lynch this please.

[absta101]

Nope.

In truth, I would probably be making a case on absta if I had more time to make one.

Town don't just 'make cases', it should come naturally. If you're running low on time, sum up your thoughts and we'll talk.

[absta101]

VOTE: absta101
Quickly!

[absta101]

VOTE: Trollie
-_- Fuck. Tommy's case is terrible. If he's town...

[absta101]

I think he had no read whatsoever on Deltabacon but, despite that, he decided to plump for 'Town' without thinking. When I challenged this, it fell apart immediately. Maybe Deltabacon is his partner.

- I did have a town read on Delta
- Do you honestly believe I didn't know you were going to ask me "why"?
- If I were scum, why didn't I just say "gut" if I had not anticipated the "why" from you?

Everything that you brought up is null. Remove your pointless vote.

[absta101]

QUICK! Everybody switch bandwagons at the end of the Day!

I genuinely find Trollie more scummy right now.


Slandaar should support this waggon.

[absta101]

Sherlock case sucks, wtf is wrong with this town?
Give me a sec?

[absta101]

.*

[absta101]

Lol. Look how fast the waggon on me grew and look how everyone tries to make a case. This is just bad, i'm only going to respond to Sherlock for now. Fuck Trollie's wall.

[absta101]

@Sherlock

He first says as a response to my question that he read through Radelle's ISO, and she's town... great. That's really not what I was going for with the question.

I wanted some specific content from him, and a possible new take on/connection to Radelle. He's apparently read through Radelle's ISO, but nothing seems to be comment-worthy as to why Radelle is town. However, he does have the ability to comment on details of one specific post by Abaddon. It doesn't add up that he's read Radelle's whole ISO, yet only uses one post as evidence for Abaddon being scum. Of course, this could be a play style issue, but the way this post was made seemed methodical, and it was like absta was intentionally not being transparent about his read of Radelle.

Okay, wtf is all this shit? HOW IS ANY OF THIS SCUMMY?
Considering I explained my Radelle read later after someone specifically asked me to, why even bring this up?

Also, I wasn't responding to you. How the fuck could you get that wrong? This makes your whole act so obvious, but i'll play along.
Also, show us all when YOU asked me this.

These two comments just support the connection for me between absta and Radelle. For those who suspect Radelle, here's a good reason to suspect absta as a partner. His reasoning for Radelle-town really makes no sense, as Radelle really didn't have to put in much "effort" to appear to be getting Parama to contribute.

Okay, very weak. Try looking for associative tells after a scum flip.

It also contradicts this gem:

No it doesn't.
Note: Whoever said Sherlock's case was even remotely good gets +scum points.

This never happened. It was even the prime topic of discussion at that point for him, until after Radelle actually posts. Absta never mentions Radelle again after Radelle's next post.

I gave Trollie an answer just like I promissed. Why are you lying?

Besides the fact that absta also doesn't give any actual reasoning for this, the implied reasoning is weaker than what he had originally voted Abaddon for.

I'll let you off for this one.
If I vote someone and follow up with questions, you should assume that vote was for pressure.

This one's obvious. He pointed out what he thought was a soft claim. Completely defeats the purpose of the advice, "Don't do this again..." There is no pro-town motivation to point out a soft claim.

Is there a Pro-scum motivation? Absta-scum would point this "soft-claim" out in the scum QT if he had to. Why would he need to point it out here?

Worst case i've seen in awhile. This makes you look very scummy.

absta's reaction to kwll's first big post is opportunism at its finest.
It's an easy thing to suspect, and I definitely could see town suspecting kwll for the post

Good to know.

This doesn't add up. He's saying he expected the upcoming question of why. Why the hell did he not explain his read beforehand? That's kinda the logical thing to do in that situation.

This is your only decent point.
I did the same when answering Slandaar's question in post #200. This should be enough to suggest it's playstyle other than alignment.

[absta101]

maybe sherlock is overusing meta but his thoughts on absta I think are pretty on. I really didnt like the way absta is using logic for my lynch...that does strike me as very much as scum either getting an easy lynch today or setting it up for day 2. Since I have posted as having these thoughts I am going to put my vote where my mouth is.

vote absta

Yeah. This is really bad and fake. I hope more people support the waggon on him.
I'm staying on Trollie's waggon for obvious reasons.

[absta101]

I did have a town read on Delta

Really? But I thought saying that was a mistake, and that actually you had a null read.

Okay this was probably my fault for being to cryptic with it.

Go to Post 420.
The first line is my initial read. After I completed the first line I went back and rechecked his ISO to make sure my read was accurate. It turned out I missed a VC(s') and was wrong about Delta's play, thus I removed my town read.
I Hope this clears up the misunderstanding.

[absta101]

Hence the "did have a town read".

[absta101]

Looking forward to a proper defence from you.

[absta101]

I'll read yours after I deal with Sherlock.

For now I suggest you vote Kwll.

[absta101]

Wow, I didn't even know there was day talk. Trollie looks more scummy.
Full reply later.

[absta101]

So day talk can only be for town?

[absta101]

Please do.

[absta101]

@Sherlock

(1)

It doesn't add up that he's read Radelle's whole ISO, yet only uses one post as evidence for Abaddon being scum.

(2)

the way this post was made seemed methodical, and it was like absta was intentionally not being transparent about his read of Radelle.

(3)

He's accusing Abaddon's post of being "fake bs," but nothing in his accusation seems to imply that Abaddon is anything but wrong in his opinion of scumhunting.

1. Are you suggesting that absta-town would have found more evidence of Abbadon-scum? Please explain what kind of case absta-town would have come up with and how you know this.
Also, explain why only using "one post as evidence" is scummy.

2. Yeah, why would absta-scum do that and explain later when someone specifically asked him to?

3. Going back to the time when I still believed in my case on him*. If his way of scumhunting is wrong and I expect 'better' from him, I would call him out for faking it.

However, explain how this could possibly make my "act" so "obvious."

I've seen town mix quotes of other players up due to similarities in name (or other reasons). But mixing up yourself with someone? I don't see that happening.
What makes this worse is that your name starts/ends with ( _ ) and they don't look the same at all.

Why? On policy? It seems to be working just fine right now. It's also obviously not the main part of my case, but just a supporting piece.

Even using it as a supporting piece is bad because it'll get you caught up in confirmation bias.
If your town, you'll see how it is after I eventually flip town somewhere down the line.

Yes it does. You're using very simple WIFOM to justify a townread on Radelle, but you had a problem earlier when I used what you called very simple WIFOM to justify a townread.

I don't think you understand the difference.
Radelle-scum's optimum move would've been to vote parama after bringing up some potentially "scummy" things on him, yet she votes Abbadon. This shows that she isn't about easy town lynches. Consider that I know Parama (my slot) is town.

(we're running out of time, i'm gonna respond more quickly from here.)

Cheery, on the other hand, says that he's "willing to be lynched". I don't see any real town motivation for this. I want to hear you explain why this is a town move and we'll discuss that.

No, you never answered toxic's question in Post #227. You never mentioned Radelle at all after saying you would respond to it later. Try to prove otherwise.

Get your facts straight and reconsider your vote.

Does it matter if there's an apparent pro-scum motivation? If there's no town thought process in what you're doing, the obvious conclusion to come to is that you aren't town.

First of all:

@Everyone

- Who ever is voting me because of Sherlock's case, please unvote after reading this quote.

Now. If there's "no town motivation" and no scum motivation how can you conclude i'm scum from that? Do you not know what a null-tell is?

By the way, I disagree with Trollie's suggestion that absta scumslipped here, but I'll let absta defend himself on that.

Noted.

You did the same scummy thing elsewhere in the same game where I think you're scum. It changes absolutely nothing.

Too bad. What I did earlier was not scummy.
Can't argue with someone as unreasonable as you.

[absta101]

of the two I think that absta is most likely scum, Trollie looks much like I do when I am about to get D1 lynched. so
UNVOTE:
VOTE: absta

Link us to the game(s) you're referring to.

[absta101]

I will be around most of the day

Trollie and Absta both need to claim

I think Absta is town; he has pestered me too much to be scum and kwll comes across fake to me also.

Trollie explain the daychat slip to me.

Both claim? Surely if you saw me as town you'd force a claim out of Trollie.

[absta101]

@Kwll

- Please reconsider your vote.
Don't sheep Sherlock, his case is falling apart.

[absta101]

VT

[absta101]

post 510 you asked trollie to vote on me. Why would you ask someone you were after to lynch to ahead and vote me?

I was just trolling. You don't think I believed he would actually unvote me. That wouldn't happen. His vote has to be on me, regardless of alignment.

I also asked you a question in post 553.

No you didn't. Link me to it.

[absta101]

Ugh, ffs Sherlock, we're gonna be arguing all day. Fuck the shit i'm not responding to.

Who are you an alt of?

[absta101]

You know me and you still think i'm scum? Bs.

[absta101]

UNVOTE:
We should choose a target for Trollie to kill. If he's an SK we should be able to figure it out after N1/N2. I don't see mafia claiming what he did.

I nominate Cheery.

[absta101]

you fuckers are really making me claim Day 1. Jesus.

ABSTA HAS YET TO EVEN RESPOIND TO A SINGLE ARGUMENT IN MY CASE.

Im a fucking 1-shot Vig.

Doctors be on me tonight.

Explain your "dayslip" accusation against me.
---

How about no? Let Trollie kill who he wants, or suggest he kill no one with his

one-shot Vig ability on Night 1.

No, we need to confirm his role.

[absta101]

Having him not shoot is a bad idea, so is letting him kill who he wants.

[absta101]

The biggest scum-tell you've dropped all game, absta101, is that you posted several times between the claim and your unvote.

How is this even scummy?
I posted 2 times talking to Sherlock and Kwll. The third post was close enough (in time) to be part of the unvote post.
---

I'll sheep Slandaar for today, only guy I trust now.
VOTE: Abbadon

[absta101]

Is that a hammer?

[absta101]

Slandaar is a slight town read.

Lynch me to stop the no-lynch going through.

[absta101]

Wait what? We have more time?

[absta101]

I didn't read the Mods VC post fully. Hence the "to stop the no-lynch going through".

[absta101]

looks like this post now forms part of my absta101 case too. There's no way his last post came from town - if he was town, he would have a guarantee that his own lynch would hinder his team. He should be campaigning hard for his biggest scum read, not giving up.

There's no way?
I didn't know the deadline had been extended and thought a no-lynch would hinder my team more. If I was scum "giving up", I would've self hammered.

[absta101]

So, now that we have more time, can you respond to my/others' posts?

You just want to argue. I'll respond to you one last time, after that I'm moving to Trollie.

P-Edit:

I've never got how a no-lynch hinders a town player more than their own lynch.

Scum get a free kill, town has no post-lynch information.

[absta101]

@Sherlock

1. Since you claimed to have read Radelle in ISO, surely you would have been able to find more than one thing to support your case for Abaddon, right?

Wrong. If I had found anything more I would've brought it up regardless of alignment.
Do you agree?

2. First of all, you didn't know someone would specifically ask you to when you made the post. Second, like I've said before, if there's no town motivation to do something, town probably didn't do it.

My point is that I

had

an explanation (which the person asking me, Idiot, agreed with).
So why did I hold back that explanation? Well I couldn't be bothered to 'over-answer' his question. I read Radelle's ISO, found some towny things but did not note them down physically, and gave him my read on her. I could've explained it but that wasn't what he was asking for.

Also, your logic doesn't work. Go find out what a null tell is PLEASE!

3. This is bullshit. There's no logical jump from "He's wrong and I expect better from him" to "He's faking it."

What?
Just think about it. If he's acting in a way that I wouldn't expect, the first thing I would think is that he's scum faking it. What other conclusion were you expecting town-absta to come up with?

Fine. I'm an alt.

And my name doesn't start with the letter S.

So how did you get "mixed up"?

You're also using the exact same logic I used against you of looking for town motivation, which you shut down.

Explain.

That doesn't seem to have anything to do with toxic's #224.

...
Yes it does. I quoted his question, how can you miss it?

Did you have any reason to point it out at all? If not, the correct assumption is that you're scum with an unknown motive. You may have thought you may not be alive by Night 1, so you pointed it out for good measure.

I pointed it out so that Cheery doesn't claim prematurely in future games, hence the "ever again". And that wasn't a "soft claim". Anyone would've seen that without me.

Also, thank you for trying to show a scum motivation.
What you don't realise is that you can't just randomly think of one, it has to make sense. Unfortunately for you, yours doesn't.
Your scum-motivation theory is so bad that it's vote worthy (I would be voting you here if I wasn't L-1).
Explain why your scum-motivation says that I thought I wouldn't be alive till N1

even though I was on zero votes.

(Post #307)

[absta101]

Yes, I do enjoy arguing with you right now. It's helping me prove that you're scum. Especially since your last response was stating that my case was falling apart.

What information does the town get from lynching you-town?

- Waggon analysis (for later).
- Everything I did was genuine and thus can be trusted.
- etc.

[absta101]

Cheery sheep Slandaar.

[absta101]

town self hammering is dumb and wrong.

[absta101]

I'm a little more willing to accept it from you just because you're new to online mafia, but my patience is very limited.

Sherlock isn't new. He's an alt.

@Mod

Can you delete the above post please.

[absta101]

Vote hopping within like 3 posts isn't scummy. Scum wouldn't vote hopp that obviously.

[absta101]

Slandaar's town read.

[absta101]

Vig Cheery

[absta101]

Toxic was on my waggon. I'll vote for him :/

VOTE: absta101

[absta101]

consider that Toxic's hammer*

Also, I'm town.

[absta101]

gg town.

Thank you Mod for the game.