Mini 1390: Game Over

[_Sherlock_]

Hey guys! I'm the replacement player for JasonWazza. I've played Mafia IRL before, but this is my first game online. I've also read a few games on here.

Can I have a recap of what's happened here?

[_Sherlock_]

I just kinda skimmed through this game on my phone and used my gut to get some reads. I feel good about these people being part of the town, from most-to-least:

Jacob
Abaddon
Tommy
Trollie
absta
toxic

However, I have bad feelings about Radelle and Idiotking, and both Cheery and Delta felt bad, but I doubt they're both part of the mafia. No one else really made me swing one way or the other on them.

VOTE: Radelle

[_Sherlock_]

Oh, I'm already voting Radelle.

[_Sherlock_]

Like I said, this was all just skimming the game. It was just a gut feeling.

If you'd like me to address something specific in order for me to give a direct opinion, I could do that.

[_Sherlock_]

I've already gone over this.

I just kinda skimmed through this game on my phone and used my gut to get some reads.

[_Sherlock_]

Okay, Cheery is probably part of the town for that post. Why would he blatantly state that he's being useless and say he's willing to be lynched for it as Mafia? Mafia's primary goal is to stay alive.

[_Sherlock_]

Post. I am in the middle of typing up a post, but I have to do homework. I'll finish the post afterwards.

[_Sherlock_]

Alright. First, I'll read through the game and point out what I see that stands out. Then, I may go through a few people's posts using the "Display posts by user" feature.

I find it strange that Abaddon, in Post #17, points out that he thinks Radelle is overdoing it while Parama's post had a tone that was much more fake. I've read some of Parama's games, and he normally acts like that, but I still find it a little weird that he called Radelle out, but not Parama. Then later, in Post #21, his accusation on Cheery of "obvious chainsawing" are unwarranted, as Cheery didn't really defend Radelle or make a very serious attack on Abaddon. Add to that that he's the only person that really stands out to me on Page 1, and I have an early suspect.

toxic's Post #32 upsets me. First, he says "RVS is over." Then, he doesn't really comment on the recent happenings, but instead attacks someone who didn't comment on the recent happenings. That's a hypocritical attack.

You say this like it's just an example of a plausible scenario, but I'm getting the impression by you saying you think it's deliberate that you actually think this. So,

am I right that you actually think Abaddon is my scum buddy

or why else do you think he was being deliberate by not voting me?

The bolded sentence is said in a tense that makes it look like Radelle knows that Cheery is town.

I really like Tommy's point in Post #37. Radelle's questions didn't really seem to have reason to them.

Cheery in Page 2 seems insistent on keeping his scum read on Abaddon after many admitted flaws in his logic were pointed out. I really can't see why he would be that way as town.

I really like the part in Sable's Post #57 about playing Devil's Advocate. It's not something that people will normally call town-like, seeing as no one mentioned it, but at the same time, it seems like a really unlikely position to fake as scum.

toxic's Post #61 was generally useless and out-of-place compared to things he had posted previously. Abaddon clearly wins their little tiff after that.

I like Abaddon's conclusion in Post #66. I agree with it, and I think it is another unlikely stance for scum to try and take.

I

really

don't like toxic's Post #67. He's completely avoiding the topic with Abaddon. He also bothered to comment on many other things before that. However, if he actually does end up commenting on it and has a decent reason to stall, he's probably town.

@Tommy

:

This appears to be some sort of logical pedantry about and/or vs either/or. I can't see what Radelle hopes to get out of it.

I wanted a definitive read since he was slowly creeping his way to a scum read on Cheery without actually directly stating so. He makes the distinction that Cheery can't be both scum or an idiot (which doesn't make sense), but notice how he doesn't make the distinction of Cheery being a

Village Idiot

. That read was leaving itself open.

This seems a bit far-fetched.

Ah, there we go - toxic has a reason for stalling. It's totally legit, and toxic's town. However, he had the huge reason that had to do with scumhunting and all sorts of stuff, but he never drew any conclusions from his plan. It was pretty much useless. It's more of a sign of poor play than scumminess.

Here's why Jacob is town. Everyone is posting their reads and contributing to the thread. Then, suddenly, Jacob comes along in Post #91 and basically says that he has no reads, and that he needs to create a spreadsheet for this game. I really doubt that he's bold enough to do this and expect to get away with it as scum. I also doubt that this is due to bad scum play - in that case, he would likely be attacking

someone

. Therefore, he must be town who genuinely lost in this game - understandable, as that is how I felt about this game at first. He also makes a spreadsheet that looks like it had some serious time and effort put into it. Again, if he's too lazy to fake reads as scum, he's not going to be making some badass spreadsheet. That's why Jacob was and is at the top of my town list. I expect there to be some nice reactions to his play here, though.

Tommy's Post #107 is really good. He's encouraging Jacob to scumhunt, something which does nothing but hurt the scum win condition by allowing people to get an accurate read on Jacob, and if Jacob is town, allowing him to find the scum more easily.

Idiot's Post #108 attack on Parama is filled with words, but lousy.

Nothing

he accused Parama of is really indicative of scum, and most of it is Parama's playstyle.

Slandaar, as of Page 5, is being a bit of a spectator. He's commenting on random tidbits here and there, but never really states a conclusion. I have a problem with that.

Post #115 is a town post from a guy who doesn't really know what he's talking about. This is kinda weak reasoning, but he's making a big case on the weak player - and it looks genuine. Scum usually can't manage that.

Note: Parama replaced out.

Using his inactivity to call him scum will not work. Post #119 by Cheery was a terrible vote for that reason.

Reads lists are usually bad things to make as scum because they establish connections with everybody. That is why Abaddon's #121 is a towntell. Even if he is calling out my slot. Post #129 is good as well, in that he naturally but regretfully defends Parama.



I'm a bit too tired to finish the rest of this tonight. I'll start at Post #130 tomorrow. I still like where my vote is.

[_Sherlock_]

Alt or newbie, Sherlock?

I assume by alt, you mean a player already on this site that is playing with a newer account? I do have a lot of experience IRL, and I've read a lot of games here. I'm also a pretty smart guy.

@Trollie: I think you misunderstood me. I saw Jacob's spreadsheet as definitely more likely to come from town, and I said that he was at the top of my town list.


I might get to finish up my read-through today. We'll see.

[_Sherlock_]

Alt or Newbie, Radelle?

I'm making a post right now.

[_Sherlock_]

I'm a fan of the opinion in toxic's Post #134. Radelle's "why Abaddon is scum" only included posts from

after

her vote. Normally, this wouldn't really be suspicious as much as confirmation bias. However, in Radelle's follow-up in the next post, she makes the point that "I didn't realize that scum just stopped being scum after the vote," when there's no substantial evidence from before the vote compared to after. And, she

still

doesn't provide reasons for Abaddon being scummy before the vote, besides the little meta issue. I doubt that that was really the most suspicious thing in the thread at the time to her.

Move to Post #142. Radelle changes the story from "I don't

have

to give reasons from before!" to "Oh, I already gave an earlier reason for him being scummy!" I don't like this. Why was this never mentioned before now? She makes it seem like it was clear, yet she doesn't include it as part of her case on Abaddon or her previous requests to give prior evidence. I personally think that she realized it while making the post and thought she could make it work to her advantage.

I also agree with Abaddon's Post #144.

Like I said earlier, Slandaar is being a total spectator, asking questions but not responding to anything himself.

Trollie's defense of Cheery in Post #162 looks slightly town, but it's terrible logic for calling him town.

@Trollie:

Have you looked at Cheery's scum meta, if any, to verify that it makes Cheery look town? If so, why did you not provide it?

Delta has a point in Post #165. Cheery does need to do more scumhunting as well.

Okay, Trollie's Post #166 doesn't add up. He earlier specifically stated that Cheery was safe, but now says that he doesn't have a town read on him.

(I'm going to go a bit fast at this point. I have to go soon, and this was at the point I replaced in anyway.)

I don't like the fact that everyone kinda ignored my points. Unless I'm just a master at explaining things, there should be commentary.

Trollie's Post #229 is good. He genuinely believes everything that he's saying.


That's all I can do.

As of now, I feel very strongly town on toxic and Jacob, pretty good town on Tommy and Trollie, and leaning town on Abaddon and Sable. I feel pretty strongly that Radelle is scum. Cheery would be my second pick, and third is a toss-up between Idiotking, absta, Delta, and Slandaar.

I still like my vote.

[_Sherlock_]

Sorry for not posting in a while. I'll try to add something new soon.

Is there anything that anyone would like me to address specifically?

[_Sherlock_]

I agree with the above, for a different reason. Look at these two wagons side-by-side:

Vote Count 1.8

Radelle(4): _Sherlock_, toxictaipan, TheTrollie, Tommy
TheTrollie(4): Idiotking, Deltabacon, Cheery Dog, Abaddon

The Radelle wagon has all players that I feel pretty good about being town. However, I feel somewhat bad about everyone on the Trollie wagon (except Abaddon, and he's even just leaning town). Therefore, I think Trollie is the counterwagon to Radelle-scum, and there is at least one, if not two, scum on Trollie's wagon right now.

@Idiot, Delta, Cheery, & Abaddon: How do you feel about this vote-count logic?

[_Sherlock_]

That's understandable.

When will your post be up? I'm interested in it.

[_Sherlock_]

That means I'm first! ^.^

[_Sherlock_]

I would, if evaluating my own scumhunting techniques was what I was going for with the question.

[_Sherlock_]

If anything, it's scummy for being an easily-fakeable way to avoid a question. However, I don't think it really tells significantly either way.

[_Sherlock_]

Nah, Idiot is town. I decided that a bit before that post, when I was questioning him. His posts aren't from a scum mindset.

@Idiot:

I want you to examine your reads and decide which ones are actually more likely to be scum and which ones are just anti-town play from your opinion.

[_Sherlock_]

I'd also suggest doing a meta read on some of the players. Specifically, Trollie.

[_Sherlock_]

Hmm. kwll's post is

hilarious

very interesting, to say the least.

@kwll:

Can you give reads on players that you didn't mention in that post?

[_Sherlock_]

@kwll:

I want to know who you think the three most likely scum are, and why you feel that they are scum.

PEdit: I actually felt the opposite way when I read it. It's possible that kwll was given his replacee's Role PM, word for word, in which case, he would have thought Parama was his partner still in the game. I was going to keep an eye out if one of them flipped scum at any point.

[_Sherlock_]

I wasn't implying that Jacob's spreadsheet was scummy at all. It makes him town mostly because of its unnecessary detail.

[_Sherlock_]

kwll is town for reasons that I may reveal later. Carry on.

[_Sherlock_]

Yes, Trollie, that is the reason. Yes, there are reason for scum to go to those lengths, but the point is that it is

very unlikely

.

Expand on the townie posts by Radelle.

[_Sherlock_]

I did my homework. He's been in one Newbie game as scum. He won.

[_Sherlock_]

Where is the second one? I must have missed it.

[_Sherlock_]

yeah i am still feeling slight town from kwll.

his play in his mafia game he is just much more concise and comprehensive which id imagine is due to pressure to scumhunt/have reasons for reads. i see much less of that here so looks genuine.

This is what I noticed earlier that I wanted to keep quiet about. I wanted to wait and see if the contrast consisted. More specifically, kwll seemed to latch onto his reads as scum. He replaced into that game as well, and he immediately cast suspicion on Aether. He then consistently attacked that throughout the game. Here, he has shown no attempt to start this method. I personally think that kwll is trying to play with the metagame; therefore, kwll is town.

[_Sherlock_]

I personally think that kwll is trying to play with the metagame; therefore, kwll is town.

Explain this to me; what do you mean by playing with the metagame?

Oops, that was supposed to be "not trying to play with the metagame."

I don't think kwll is purposefully playing against his meta from his other game; therefore, since he's not playing similar to that game, he's probably town.

[_Sherlock_]

Welp, we have two days.

UNVOTE:

I'm not willing to join the Trollie wagon. I'm not willing to lynch Kinetic without giving him a chance to post and others a chance to respond.

I'll read up once more either tonight or tomorrow, but unless something major comes up, I'll most likely be forced to join the Abaddon wagon.

[_Sherlock_]

@_Sherlock_: Does it not bother you that no one currently on that wagon has provided a good, solid case for why Abaddon is scummy? Why are you willing to abandon a scum read you feel pretty strongly about in favor of lynching someone you view as slightly leaning town? Before you hop on that wagon for no reason, take a while to really analyze it and make sure that's what you want to do.

I agree that it would be best if we could see a post from Kinetic before deciding on a lynch, but when it comes down to lynching scum reads vs. town reads, I think you have to take what you can get.

As for the first question, that doesn't bother me at all. I don't have a problem with a two-person wagon having no solid evidence.

Leaving Kinetic alive could be a good thing because we could get a better read on the slot. We could also establish better connections if the slot flips scum. I also have absolutely no concrete feeling of Abaddon-town, so with a deadline approaching, you have to make the best possible choice. A good, promising replacement of a currently scummy slot that could provide a lot of information for later is a worse choice than a player that you only slightly feel is town and shows no signs of increasing activity.

However, you have a point that there's no reasonable chance of an Abaddon wagon happening over a Trollie wagon at this point. I guess a Kinetic wagon will have to do.

VOTE: Kinetic

Make your post soon.

Would anyone like me to rehash my case on Radelle?

[_Sherlock_]

Nope.

In truth, I would probably be making a case on absta if I had more time to make one.

[_Sherlock_]

Cool, Tommy's town read is increased. His thoughts aligned perfectly with the thoughts I've had, but not mentioned.

VOTE: absta

Case will come soonish.

[_Sherlock_]

I'm gonna start by saying that both Trollie and kwll are clearly town and are terrible lynch targets. Call it "chainsawing," but they're obviously town. I've expressed reasons for them that I think are pretty clear, and if you're town and just don't agree with them, humor me. What harm could it do?

Since the message about Trollie seems to not be getting across, I will add something; look at his meta. I know I've said it a lot in my cases, but seriously, try it sometime. I found a scum game by Trollie. It looks

absolutely nothing like this.

The same is the case with kwll. I really don't care if my meta of him consists of one scum game (I'm looking at you, Slandaar). His play is exceedingly different from that game.

Preface: Here is the new list I have collected of people that I feel very strongly are town:

Trollie
kwll
Idiot
Slandaar

Tommy, toxic, and Jacob are close to joining the list, but I'm not too sure.

Now, here's a big post about absta!

---

First of all, I'd like anyone to try and bring up a reason for absta being town. None of his posts or others' points as of yet have given me any feeling of the sort. There's not really even that much attempt at scumhunting in them for me.

---

There's literally no point in trying to read Parama. I've looked at his games, and he's generally unreadable by all.

---

Nothing notable in absta's posts until his ISO #4.

Absta what is your take on Radelle?

She seems town. I had a read through her ISO.
---
VOTE: Abbadon
Not liking post #82. It's fake bs.

Attacks on scum that are just plain bad only give you ways to worm your way out of it by calling foul.

You don't help your scum read unless you don't believe they're scum (anymore). I would have accepted something like "Bad attacks on my scum read makes me doubt my read on him".

Can you explain why what you said is something town should be worried about (so much that they defend their scum reads to avoid it)?

Abbadon's trying to look 'reasonable' which is scummy in this case.

You're still scummy, but I won't abide no-logic attacks just because they're aimed in the right direction. That's hypocrisy of the worst sort, and I won't put up with that.

I don't see this from a town POV. We play to win. If you think someone is attacking "in the right direction" you wouldn't defend your suspect regardless of how bad the attack was.

He first says as a response to my question that he read through Radelle's ISO, and she's town... great. That's really not what I was going for with the question. I wanted some specific content from him, and a possible new take on/connection to Radelle. He's apparently read through Radelle's ISO, but nothing seems to be comment-worthy as to

why

Radelle is town. However, he does have the ability to comment on details of one specific post by Abaddon. It doesn't add up that he's read Radelle's whole ISO, yet only uses one post as evidence for Abaddon being scum. Of course, this could be a play style issue, but the way this post was made seemed methodical, and it was like absta was intentionally not being transparent about his read of Radelle. The actual attack on Abaddon here makes no sense to me as well. He's accusing Abaddon's post of being "fake bs," but nothing in his accusation seems to imply that Abaddon is anything but wrong in his opinion of scumhunting.

---

@Radelle

@Absta: The game hasn't completed yet, to be honest. I did have a quick random gander at Cheery's meta in completed game Open 437 and he seems a lot more active throughout most of the game there, actually. I'm going to backtrack a bit and say his meta is a toss-up for me.

Don't make claims like that anymore unless you can back them up.

Are you okay with me referring to you as "She/her" in a sentence?
---

@Idiotking

Radelle seems town for Post #81 and #105 where she shows that she's checked Parama's "recent posts". Going this far to get someone to contribute without calling them scummy makes little sense from scum's perspective, especially considering Parama is an easy place to keep your vote. Do you agree?

These two comments just support the connection for me between absta and Radelle. For those who suspect Radelle, here's a good reason to suspect absta as a partner. His reasoning for Radelle-town really makes no sense, as Radelle really didn't have to put in much "effort" to appear to be getting Parama to contribute. It also contradicts this gem:

@Sherlock

Okay, Cheery is probably part of the town for that post. Why would he blatantly state that he's being useless and say he's willing to be lynched for it as Mafia? Mafia's primary goal is to stay alive.

That's very simple WIFOM.

---

@absta101: How does Post 224 affect your read on Radelle?

Waiting on her response.

This never happened.

It was even the prime topic of discussion at that point for him, until after Radelle actually posts. Absta never mentions Radelle again after Radelle's next post.

---

@Cheery

VOTE: Cheery

When people defend me more than I've actually defended myself, it comes across as suspicious as if they want to keep me alive until LYLO and pull a switch on.

Do you have any games where this has happened to you before?

Other than that it's just so much more activity than thetrollie I've played with before where he was town.

Do you have anymore reasons for thinking he's scum or is this it?

Besides the fact that absta also doesn't give any

actual

reasoning for this, the implied reasoning is weaker than what he had originally voted Abaddon for.

---

(the only problem would be if I'm a PR - I guess if he believed me to me one then it would make sense to shoot down attacks, but that would also involve having a town read)

Don't do this again...
UNVOTE:

This one's obvious. He pointed out what he thought was a soft claim. Completely defeats the purpose of the advice, "Don't do this again..." There is no pro-town motivation to point out a soft claim.

---

absta's reaction to kwll's first big post is opportunism at its finest. No, there's no consideration that kwll could be new and not meet expectations. No, there's no consideration of meta to see if kwll just usually plays like that. kwll has to be scum for the post. It's an easy thing to suspect, and I definitely could see town suspecting kwll for the post, but the way abstaresponded was more of a, "That post was bad. Therefore, I would lynch you." That is scum logic not translated into town words.

---

Of course, there's the series of unexplained votes between kwll and Trollie. That's already been gone over. I especially don't like the one where he uses a self-vote to transition his vote from kwll to Trollie.

---

I think he had no read whatsoever on Deltabacon but, despite that, he decided to plump for 'Town' without thinking. When I challenged this, it fell apart immediately. Maybe Deltabacon is his partner.

- I did have a town read on Delta
- Do you honestly believe I didn't know you were going to ask me "why"?
- If I were scum, why didn't I just say "gut" if I had not anticipated the "why" from you?

Everything that you brought up is null. Remove your pointless vote.

This doesn't add up. He's saying he expected the upcoming question of why. Why the hell did he not explain his read beforehand? That's kinda the logical thing to do in that situation. Therefore, there's a lie in this picture. There's also the WIFOM of "If I were scum..."

---

In general, absta hasn't really made any fresh content without eventually following it up with a vote or being asked to explain something. This makes his play look methodical and planned-out.

---

tl;dr:

- Actively avoids being transparent unless he's already planned an attack on someone
- Attacks often accuse someone of incorrect play, not scummy behavior
- Hypocrisy of using very simple WIFOM to explain his townreads but accusing others (namely, me) of using WIFOM in their own townreads
- Completely dropped the subject of Radelle after it being the prime discussion moments before
- Switches from vote-to-vote for either seemingly no reason or for a reason worse than the one before it
- Pointed out a soft claim
- Fits as a partner with another scum read of mine, Radelle
- On top of everything else, has nothing going for him that makes him look remotely town

---

So yeah. Votes go.

[_Sherlock_]

Fine. I guess I have no choice but to disassemble the case on Trollie. I'll work on that tonight. Be prepared to switch your vote.

[_Sherlock_]

No time to respond right now, but long story short, most of your defense is "you're lying!" without an explanation of the lie, calling my attacks "weak" and discounting them, and calling me scummy for making a case on you that you (obviously) don't agree with.

[_Sherlock_]

Looking forward to a proper defence from you.

Hardy har har.

You should respond to Trollie while I do stuff and make the post. It'll take awhile.

[_Sherlock_]

@Mod: V/LA from Sunday until next Sunday.

I know it's the worst timing, but I'm not going to have time to make a

good

case for why Trollie is town. I can sum it up. Most of it is stuff that involves his motivations for posting, as a lot of his posts really don't make sense from a "I'm trying to trick the town into thinking I'm town" thought process. He's an experienced player; as scum, he would be putting more of an effort in to make himself look town. There's also the fact that I really don't like his wagon.

---

Okay, wtf is all this shit? HOW IS ANY OF THIS SCUMMY?

Oh, I can bold the half of that paragraph that specifically calls you out for scummy play, which you totally ignored.

He first says as a response to my question that he read through Radelle's ISO, and she's town... great. That's really not what I was going for with the question. I wanted some specific content from him, and a possible new take on/connection to Radelle. He's apparently read through Radelle's ISO, but nothing seems to be comment-worthy as to

why

Radelle is town. However, he does have the ability to comment on details of one specific post by Abaddon.

It doesn't add up that he's read Radelle's whole ISO, yet only uses one post as evidence for Abaddon being scum.

Of course, this could be a play style issue, but

the way this post was made seemed methodical, and it was like absta was intentionally not being transparent about his read of Radelle

. The actual attack on Abaddon here makes no sense to me as well.

He's accusing Abaddon's post of being "fake bs," but nothing in his accusation seems to imply that Abaddon is anything but wrong in his opinion of scumhunting.

---

Also, I wasn't responding to you. How the fuck could you get that wrong? This makes your whole act so obvious, but i'll play along.
Also, show us all when YOU asked me this.

Sorry, I mixed myself up with Slandaar there. Y'know, they both start with an "S"... yeah.

However, explain how this could possibly make my "act" so "obvious." Are you trying that "The best defense is a good offense" thing? It doesn't work that way.

---

Okay, very weak. Try looking for associative tells after a scum flip.

Why? On policy? It seems to be working just fine right now. It's also obviously not the main part of my case, but just a supporting piece.

---

It also contradicts this gem:

No it doesn't.
Note: Whoever said Sherlock's case was even remotely good gets +scum points.

Yes it does. You're using very simple WIFOM to justify a townread on Radelle, but you had a problem earlier when I used what you called very simple WIFOM to justify a townread.

Your note gave me a chuckle.

---

I gave Trollie an answer just like I promissed. Why are you lying?

No, you never answered toxic's question in Post #227. You never mentioned Radelle at all after saying you would respond to it later. Try to prove otherwise.

---

Besides the fact that absta also doesn't give any actual reasoning for this, the implied reasoning is weaker than what he had originally voted Abaddon for.

I'll let you off for this one.
If I vote someone and follow up with questions, you should assume that vote was for pressure.

Except you don't follow up your "pressure" with any result on the read it gave you. So essentially, the vote is useless. Am I just supposed to take your word on the answers to your questions giving you reads that you won't ever reveal?

---

This one's obvious. He pointed out what he thought was a soft claim. Completely defeats the purpose of the advice, "Don't do this again..." There is no pro-town motivation to point out a soft claim.

Is there a Pro-scum motivation? Absta-scum would point this "soft-claim" out in the scum QT if he had to. Why would he need to point it out here?

Worst case i've seen in awhile. This makes you look very scummy.

Does it matter if there's an apparent pro-scum motivation? If there's no town thought process in what you're doing, the obvious conclusion to come to is that you aren't town.

[insert comment about how terrible your defense is and how scummy it makes you]

By the way, I disagree with Trollie's suggestion that absta scumslipped here, but I'll let absta defend himself on that.

---

absta's reaction to kwll's first big post is opportunism at its finest.
It's an easy thing to suspect, and I definitely could see town suspecting kwll for the post

Good to know.

Oh, I think you missed the part where I called the way you did it scummy instead of the act itself. Y'know, the rest of the paragraph?

Let me try that:

Sherlock's case was even remotely good

---

This doesn't add up. He's saying he expected the upcoming question of why. Why the hell did he not explain his read beforehand? That's kinda the logical thing to do in that situation.

This is your only decent point.
I did the same when answering Slandaar's question in post #200. This should be enough to suggest it's playstyle other than alignment.

lolnope. You did the same scummy thing elsewhere in the same game where I think you're scum. It changes absolutely nothing. But thank you for admitting that the thing you did actually is scummy.

---

I cut out the parts that you already responded to, and I'm still left with this that you completely ignored:

---

He's apparently read through Radelle's ISO, but nothing seems to be comment-worthy as to

why

Radelle is town. However, he does have the ability to comment on details of one specific post by Abaddon. It doesn't add up that he's read Radelle's whole ISO, yet only uses one post as evidence for Abaddon being scum. Of course, this could be a play style issue, but the way this post was made seemed methodical, and it was like absta was intentionally not being transparent about his read of Radelle. The actual attack on Abaddon here makes no sense to me as well. He's accusing Abaddon's post of being "fake bs," but nothing in his accusation seems to imply that Abaddon is anything but wrong in his opinion of scumhunting.

[...]

---

absta's reaction to kwll's first big post is opportunism at its finest. No, there's no consideration that kwll could be new and not meet expectations. No, there's no consideration of meta to see if kwll just usually plays like that. kwll has to be scum for the post. [...] the way abstaresponded was more of a, "That post was bad. Therefore, I would lynch you." That is scum logic not translated into town words.

---

Of course, there's the series of unexplained votes between kwll and Trollie. That's already been gone over. I especially don't like the one where he uses a self-vote to transition his vote from kwll to Trollie.

[...]

---

There's also the WIFOM of "If I were scum..."

---

In general, absta hasn't really made any fresh content without eventually following it up with a vote or being asked to explain something. This makes his play look methodical and planned-out.

---

Idiot, would you consider switching to absta today?

Please?

[_Sherlock_]

@toxic & Slandaar:

Can you please read my case on absta as well as further replies and give an opinion? It feels like you guys aren't taking that into consideration.

@absta:

Why didn't you respond to my post while you were here? Now we don't have as much time.

[_Sherlock_]

@absta:

@Sherlock

(1)

It doesn't add up that he's read Radelle's whole ISO, yet only uses one post as evidence for Abaddon being scum.

(2)

the way this post was made seemed methodical, and it was like absta was intentionally not being transparent about his read of Radelle.

(3)

He's accusing Abaddon's post of being "fake bs," but nothing in his accusation seems to imply that Abaddon is anything but wrong in his opinion of scumhunting.

1. Are you suggesting that absta-town would have found more evidence of Abbadon-scum? Please explain what kind of case absta-town would have come up with and how you know this.
Also, explain why only using "one post as evidence" is scummy.

2. Yeah, why would absta-scum do that and explain later when someone specifically asked him to?

3. Going back to the time when I still believed in my case on him*. If his way of scumhunting is wrong and I expect 'better' from him, I would call him out for faking it.

1. Since you claimed to have read Radelle in ISO, surely you would have been able to find more than one thing to support your case for Abaddon, right?

2. First of all, you didn't know someone would specifically ask you to when you made the post. Second, like I've said before, if there's no town motivation to do something, town probably didn't do it.

3.

This is bullshit.

There's no logical jump from "He's wrong and I expect better from him" to "He's faking it."

---

However, explain how this could possibly make my "act" so "obvious."

I've seen town mix quotes of other players up due to similarities in name (or other reasons). But mixing up yourself with someone? I don't see that happening.
What makes this worse is that your name starts/ends with ( _ ) and they don't look the same at all.

Fine. I'm an alt. And my name doesn't start with the letter S. (Don't tell anyone who doesn't read this themselves )

---

Yes it does. You're using very simple WIFOM to justify a townread on Radelle, but you had a problem earlier when I used what you called very simple WIFOM to justify a townread.

I don't think you understand the difference.
Radelle-scum's optimum move would've been to vote parama after bringing up some potentially "scummy" things on him, yet she votes Abbadon. This shows that she isn't about easy town lynches. Consider that I know Parama (my slot) is town.

(we're running out of time, i'm gonna respond more quickly from here.)

Cheery, on the other hand, says that he's "willing to be lynched". I don't see any real town motivation for this. I want to hear you explain why this is a town move and we'll discuss that.

I understood your reasoning, and it's still terrible logic and simple WIFOM. It boils down to "Radelle wasn't opportunistic at one point, therefore she is town," which leaves out the obvious possibility that she's

trying to look town.

Meanwhile, Cheery willing to be lynched follows that same line of thought, but it's less likely for Cheery-scum to say he's willing to be lynched than Cheery-town. Cheery-town says it because he feels he's a liability at LyLo (I think?). Cheery-scum says it because...? AtE, maybe, but that would be ballsy.

You're also using the exact same logic I used against you of looking for town motivation, which you shut down.

---

No, you never answered toxic's question in Post #227. You never mentioned Radelle at all after saying you would respond to it later. Try to prove otherwise.

Get your facts straight and reconsider your vote.

That doesn't seem to have anything to do with toxic's #224.

---

Does it matter if there's an apparent pro-scum motivation? If there's no town thought process in what you're doing, the obvious conclusion to come to is that you aren't town.

First of all:

@Everyone

- Who ever is voting me because of Sherlock's case, please unvote after reading this quote.

Seems legit.

Now. If there's "no town motivation" and no scum motivation how can you conclude i'm scum from that? Do you not know what a null-tell is?

Did you have any reason to point it out at all? If not, the correct assumption is that you're scum with an unknown motive. You may have thought you may not be alive by Night 1, so you pointed it out for good measure.

---

You did the same scummy thing elsewhere in the same game where I think you're scum. It changes absolutely nothing.

Too bad. What I did earlier was not scummy.

Bullshit.

You

admitted

that it was a decent point.

---

I cut out the parts that you already responded to, and I'm still left with this that you completely ignored:

absta's reaction to kwll's first big post is opportunism at its finest. No, there's no consideration that kwll could be new and not meet expectations. No, there's no consideration of meta to see if kwll just usually plays like that. kwll has to be scum for the post. [...] the way abstaresponded was more of a, "That post was bad. Therefore, I would lynch you." That is scum logic not translated into town words.

---

Of course, there's the series of unexplained votes between kwll and Trollie. That's already been gone over. I especially don't like the one where he uses a self-vote to transition his vote from kwll to Trollie.

[...]

---

There's also the WIFOM of "If I were scum..."

---

In general, absta hasn't really made any fresh content without eventually following it up with a vote or being asked to explain something. This makes his play look methodical and planned-out.

I did further cutting.

Hey absta, respond to this this time.

---

Trollie has a provable role, albeit an anti-town one.

[_Sherlock_]

I made this account to be able to play a different style. I'm not claiming. I will say that I have experience with Cheery, Abaddon, Slandaar, Trollie, and you. (and both Parama and JasonWazza)

[_Sherlock_]

How about no? Let Trollie kill who he wants, or suggest he kill no one with his

one-shot Vig ability on Night 1.

[_Sherlock_]

Having him no-shoot on N1 is a great idea. Plus, ou're not considering the possibility of a Mafia Roleblocker here.

[_Sherlock_]

you're*

[_Sherlock_]

How about you explain why my case is wrong and why absta is town. If you can successfully do that before deadline and there's a reasonable chance of people switching, MAYBE I'll wagon Abaddon.

In other words, it's probably not gonna happen.

[_Sherlock_]

I'll sheep Slandaar for today, only guy I trust now.

lolwut?

[_Sherlock_]

Shooting N1 is a terrible idea in the first place.

Besides, what the hell kind of fakeclaim is one-shot vig? I may have confirmation bias, but that's a pretty bad role to claim as scum.

PEdit: I'll count.

[_Sherlock_]

No, you're at L-1.

You should give your reads.

[_Sherlock_]

No, I was saying the Mafia might have a Roleblocker.

[_Sherlock_]

... maybe you are right, Sherlock, but it's gotten me thinking.

I have a theory now. Sherlock/Trollie scumteam.

This is based on the fact that Sherlock has been absolutely adamant about keeping Trollie alive in these last few hours using extremely weak arguments. This is 50% of the case against Trollie himself. Now add into that the fact you are saying that he is town because he has claimed an easily confirmable role,

but you are against our efforts to get it confirmed

.

Your actions close to the deadline are very peculiar, Sherlock. If absta flips town I'm going to be highly suspicious of you. I could see a Sherlock/Trollie/Cheery scumteam.

Sure, that's a reasonable conclusion. However, my reasons for not wanting Trollie to shoot are perfectly substantiated. You'd also have to assume I'm not into the whole distancing thing.

Lynch me to stop the no-lynch going through.

This doesn't add up. A few hours ago, you agreed with wagoning Abaddon up after Trollie claimed. Now that we have

more

time than before, you're suggesting your own lynch just so that we have something. It's AtE.

[_Sherlock_]

Fair enough. You could have also voted yourself

[_Sherlock_]

So, now that we have more time, can you respond to my/others' posts?

[_Sherlock_]

I've never got how a no-lynch hinders a town player more than their own lynch.

[_Sherlock_]

Yes, I do enjoy arguing with you right now. It's helping me prove that you're scum. Especially since your last response was stating that my case was falling apart.

What information does the town get from lynching you-town?

[_Sherlock_]

@Idiot:

You're most likely right. Since I've already decided in my head that Trollie is town, any argument for it will most likely sound like a stretch. However, I would have given better, "real" reasons if I had the time.

I don't have time to respond to absta's defense. I'm going to Disney World.

[_Sherlock_]

Well, crap. My scum reads have been way off.

I'm on vacation (Disney World!), but here's an updated reads list:

TOWN
Idiot
Delta
kwll
Trollie

PROBABLY TOWN
toxic
Jacob
Slandaar

...which only leaves two players. Which means I'm wrong about someone.

Scum is Abaddon, Kinetic, and {toxic, Jacob, Slandaar}.

VOTE: Kinetic

[_Sherlock_]

There's also the possibility that I'm right in the townreads, but Trollie is an SK. Which I could totally see.

[_Sherlock_]

Hmm.

Trollie, don't shoot any more unless you're, like, almost 100% sure that your target is scum. Your existence is already proven. Understood?

The fact that Trollie's kill went through most likely means that the scum don't have a Roleblocker; I doubt any scumteam could resist the WIFOM of there being no extra kill.

Also, there should no longer be any concerns about Trollie being Mafia. Trollie is not a lynch option today.

[_Sherlock_]

[quote="In post 650, Slandaar]

Trollie, don't shoot any more unless you're, like, almost 100% sure that your target is scum.

He

need's

to shoot again and should do it tonight.[/quote]

Explain or no.

There's also the possibility that I'm right in the townreads, but Trollie is an SK. Which I could totally see.

No those setups basically don't exist, don't ask me how I know.

I have a recently-read game as a counterpoint. Tintin Mafia. Just finished, like, a week ago. I've been in one or two as well.

Anyway, that really doesn't matter.

[_Sherlock_]

Ah, I see.

But only one shot.

[_Sherlock_]

Definitely don't massclaim today. MAYBE tomorrow.

Has there been much discussion in your Neighbor QT?

[_Sherlock_]

Hmm.

My Idiotking townread is reinforced. If there's any scum in the Neighborhood, it's Jacob.

[_Sherlock_]

@Mod: I'm officially back from V/LA.

I'm going to try in-depth analysis on every player tonight if I'm given the chance.

kwll, I see you. I'm looking forward to your post.

[_Sherlock_]

Oh, you left.

[_Sherlock_]

Alright. Reads, in the order from most to least convenient for me to type up:

_Sherlock_:

Town, duh.

Trollie:

Either Town or SK. I see no point in speculating on this further.

[_Sherlock_]

Early submit. :/

[_Sherlock_]

It's fine. I'm adding format-style stuff to the part I already posted; it's technically an edited version.

[_Sherlock_]

Alright. Reads, in the order from most to least convenient for me to type up:

_Sherlock_:

Duh.

TOWN

Trollie:

Either Town or SK. I see no point in speculating on this further.

NOT MAFIA (:P)

Idiotking:

I had almost no read on him until Post #319. I got a minor town read from the way he bluntly showed an opposite view from me as far as Trollie's alignment. This view remains consistent throughout Day 1, as he stay's on Trollie's ass to the end. The sense I got from his Post #321 made me feel that he's actually going through his reads with some serious effort. This makes me feel that he's either highly detailed scum putting effort into faking each of his reads in detail, or he's town. My only samples are one recently finished game and games from years ago, but his max posting quality seems to be higher as town, similar to his posting here. Along the same line, there's Post #331. As he claimed that his post took two days to assemble, it's less likely that he took two days faking a huge post when he hasn't had a history of doing that before as scum. It's more likely that he's doing things the same way he was doing them in his recently-finished game and making a legitimate read list. Someone mentioned when he made the post that he has way too many scum reads in his post to be scum, and I tend to agree with that. Add to that that he listed no one I see as potential scum as a town read, which either means he's not supporting his partners or he's town (or I'm wrong... nah). I disagreed with most of his reads, but he's been consistent with them since the reads post and seems to genuinely believe every point he makes. The fact that he's willing to put a huge post out there in the first place is also a slight towntell, as from a scum PoV, it creates connections between him and every other player. Him showing low confidence in some reads, such as at the end of his read on Abaddon, shows that he's posting all reads that come to his mind instead of finding what's good and making it fit into a read. In my experience, scum are less likely to gather reads in this way because they already know what they want their reads to be, while town are still trying to find theirs. His read on Delta seems to be mostly based on the fact that he attacked Trollie constantly, something terribly wrong, but not something I see Mafia basing a town read on, considering that he wanted Trollie-not-mafia dead. He's too confident about his read on Trollie to be faking it and expect a good reaction to it later, knowing he's not mafia. I also am a fan of the fact that he types up pretty big walls on some players just to end up giving them a null read. It again shows thought. That about wraps up why I got a huge town read on Idiot right after his reads post. The cherry on top of Idiot-town is his Neighbor claim. A two-man neighborhood is pretty likely to have two town, and Jacob's comment about forgetting to check the QT means that if there's scum in the Neighborhood, it's most likely Jacob, not Idiot. His confusion around his read on me is a town tell because, like I've said before, people are less likely to take things step-by-step like that as scum than as town.

TOWN

---

This is all I can get done tonight, sorry. I'll try to get more finished tomorrow and upcoming days. I'll just say now that I'm MUCH more confident in reads that I list as "

TOWN

" than any other reads, specifically, my scum reads.

[_Sherlock_]

VOTE: Abaddon

I'm actually fine with that compromise wagon until I finish my analysis. According to my current reads, he's scum too.

[_Sherlock_]

Wow. I kinda skimmed through that for now, but I'm pretty interested in your read on me and how it parallels to how I read Idiot. He has almost completely opposite views from me, but I feel that the posts themselves are great.

You also just made your slot look ten times better. I'll have to look into your meta to see if your scum play (or your town play, for that matter) can look like this.

[_Sherlock_]

You're right. I can't even find anything through the "View their topics" thing because of your List Mod stuff. -_-

Can you list what you would consider a couple of your best scum games, as well as a couple of your best town games? It doesn't matter to me when they're from.

[_Sherlock_]

Nope. Slandaar's a pretty audacious guy.

[_Sherlock_]

Sorry guys, but I can't see myself getting much further on my analyses any time soon. At least you all have a good read on Idiot from me!

If I consider Kinetic town, it leaves me with the pool of {Abaddon, toxic, Jacob, Slandaar}. That's actually a really good pool, in my opinion. I would guess Abaddon/toxic/Slandaar from those four.

[_Sherlock_]

Well, that makes my read on Delta easier to express. He just townslipped.

Kinetic is winning this battle. toxic, your arguments are starting to look bad to me.

I'm going to make my kwll read post now.

[_Sherlock_]

kwll:

I really get no read from Sable. At least, not anything significant enough to mention.

Now, I don't want to hear the "oh it's meta you cant rely on that WAH WAH WAH" shit when I say this unless it's justified. My town read on kwll is completely based on meta from his scum game, and I think it's a very strong reason.

This is the game I'm referring to: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

In that game, as I mentioned previously, he stayed consistently on Aether (until he was modkilled). He always stayed focused on one player, even after that, where he tries to sell cyber-scum. However, in this game, the first post of content he had was a read on a ton of players and many scum options. He also received scum advice from Nacho at endgame, and it was basically "Don't sheep, and try to make better cases." This game started a day after that advice. His first vote was on the most popular wagon, and he hasn't really made any "case," per say. He was also swayed by my case on absta.

To put it simply, kwll wouldn't play like this this game as scum.

TOWN

---

So, this is the player list, color-coded with who I've shown reads of so far:

Abaddon
toxictaipan

Idiotking
Deltabacon
_Sherlock_
kwll
TheTrollie

Kinetic
JacobSavage
Slandaar

That sums up people I'm pretty sure I'm town, so... yeah.

[_Sherlock_]

...shit.

[_Sherlock_]

I'm an alt of someone you know.

[_Sherlock_]

You should vote someone not green in this list:

Abaddon
toxictaipan

Idiotking
Deltabacon
_Sherlock_
kwll
TheTrollie

Kinetic
JacobSavage
Slandaar

PEdit: After you? Toss-up between toxic and Kinetic. One is scum, one is not. At this moment, it's more likely toxic.

[_Sherlock_]

I made this account to be able to play a different style. I'm not claiming. I will say that I have experience with Cheery, Abaddon, Slandaar, Trollie, and [absta]. (and both Parama and JasonWazza)

Add Thor to that list.

[_Sherlock_]

Thanks.

[_Sherlock_]

Thanks, I finished my read yesterday, I was waiting on Abaddon to return because I was ready to string him up. That's why I haven't been voting for toxic, I've been waiting for the proper time to vote my other top suspect.

Show of hands, who actually believes this?
Anyone?
Bueller?

*raises hand*

[_Sherlock_]

Sure.

Wow. I kinda skimmed through that for now, but I'm pretty interested in your read on me and how it parallels to how I read Idiot. He has almost completely opposite views from me, but I feel that the posts themselves are great.

You also just made your slot look ten times better. I'll have to look into your meta to see if your scum play (or your town play, for that matter) can look like this.

[_Sherlock_]

Yeaaahhh... I read that post. The big problem I'm having here is that you jumped ship on him and got on Abaddon's wagon before he even posted that. You were also pretty confident that I was town during Day 1. You seem to have taken a 180 on that, too. What's up with that?

VOTE: Abaddon

I'm actually fine with that

compromise wagon

until I finish my analysis. According to my current reads,

he's scum too

.

Toss-up between toxic and Kinetic. One is scum, one is not.

[_Sherlock_]

Cool, I've played with Konowa too.

tl;dr: I'm an alt of a player you know, there's one scum in {toxic, Kinetic}, Thor replaced a scummy slot and is unreadable so we're lynching him.

[_Sherlock_]

Notice that that post was a tl;dr towards Konowa and that "scummy slot" implies Abaddon did scummy things that I have yet to mention.

Abaddon was scummy in his own right. Thor, if we're going that route, from my PoV, you have a 2/3 chance of being scum from PoE of my reads alone.

Idiot, I see some redeeming quality in every one of my suspects but Thor. Kinetic's catch-up post was towny for reasons mentioned previously. Toxic and Slandaar were previous townreads. Jacob is a Neighbor, and also a previous townread. Thor...

PEdit: How do you dode?

[_Sherlock_]

Idiot, you're acting like I haven't explained anything all game. I'm not doing it now because I'm busy and don't have time to do it fully.

[_Sherlock_]

Kinetic isn't clearly town. There's one scum in Kinetic/toxic, and I'm leaning toxic as the more likely scum due to this.

I haven't posted why you're scum yet. I've posted why Trollie, Idiot, Delta, and kwll aren't, though. (Trollie and Idiot are here, Delta is here, and kwll is here.) And due to my read of one scum in {Kinetic, toxic} due to their arguing, there are also two scum in {Thor, Slandaar, Jacob}.

PEdit: Idiot, try to prove anyone's alignment in this game.

You're also forgetting the arguments I constantly had with absta, as well as the walls earlier.

[_Sherlock_]

I'm trying to find time to do it properly. Would you rather me half-ass it right now?

[_Sherlock_]

To be fair, everyone except Trollie has made less posts than this replacement.

[_Sherlock_]

Kinetic isn't clearly town. There's one scum in Kinetic/toxic, and I'm leaning toxic as the more likely scum due to this.

Is it just that he posted a big wall or something else?

It's more of the fact that his read on me almost completely parallels to my read on Idiotking. This shows that he's using a town (to me) thought process.

Delta is here, and kwll is here.)

Explain Delta's townslip?
Looking at all the available meta (specifically - meta we can't openly discuss due to rules about ongoings) I see this as a weak clear of Kwll. But I also think it's a solid town tell on you.

Explain the Delta thing (and the Kinetic thing) and we can move forward. We should lynch Kinetic or Slandaar.

Delta asked for Kinetic's read on Tommy. Today. This is a townslip because scum are going to know who they killed. It also makes sense from town!-Delta who really isn't paying too much attention to the game. We also know that Tommy was the Mafia nightkill because Trollie claimed the Cheery shot.

---

I feel like exploring the possibility that I'm wrong on Thor.

@Thor:

Knowing that I'm aware of Slandaar's meta, give me good reason to suspect him.

[_Sherlock_]

Okay, never mind. ^that post is pretty shitty. UNVOTE:

Note that Thor is no longer at L-1. I thought I did this earlier after his response to me, but I guess not.

This is kinda a prod-dodge post.

[_Sherlock_]

VOTE: Kinetic

Explanation based on just his recent posts coming up when I switch to my laptop.

[_Sherlock_]

First of all, Thor's right that he's completely wrong about everyone claiming when they're put at L-1.

Post #903: The premise that "if you were town and there were ANY scum not voting for you right now, they would have given an intent to hammer, just to stop this charade of you stalling for more time" is faulty. Then, at the end of the post, you state that the game most likely has 3-4 scum, and then jump straight to the conclusion that it's four, which happens to be the worse scenario for Thor.

But the next posts after this are MUCH worse.

Post #905:

We KNOW, that for you to flip town there must be at least 3 scum within {Trollie, Slandaar, Sherlock, Kinetic, kwll}, and at most there is 1 scum within {Toxic, IK, Jacob, and Konowa}

No, we don't. This is a terribly false premise, and it ruins the rest of the post. I seriously don't see how you could be locked into this conclusion.

Okay, never mind. ^that post is pretty shitty. UNVOTE:

Note that Thor is no longer at L-1. I thought I did this earlier after his response to me, but I guess not.

This is kinda a prod-dodge post.

Really motherfucker. Really. Got it, found the third scum. {Toxic, Sherlock, Thor}. Done. Sherlock fucking blinked when I showed him Thor's logic was bullshit.

I'm scum for...? Calling your post bad? Unvoting Thor at L-1?

This actually doesn't make any sense.

[_Sherlock_]

First of all, this is yet another conclusions with no analysis. Why is he right that it is in the best interests of the town for a town player to NOT claim at Lynch -1.

I have no idea where this is even coming from. This has never been the case in any game I have played. How I missed every single game where this is the case is beyond me, but in every game I've ever played if you are at Lynch -1, and you're town, you FUCKING CLAIM because when you're TOWN and worried about a SCUM QUICK HAMMER, you want to tell the townies on your wagon as quick as possible that there might be a reason to get the fuck off your wagon.

Now, sure, its better for scum to not claim and stay longer, but that's the whole point. That's why TOWN fucking claim at L-1, and its scummy to wait and leave open the hammer possibility, or worse yet, to allow a meta where scum are able to stay at a precarious position and more time to fake a claim.

Simple answer: People claim an intent to hammer

before

claims nowadays.

I was doing worst case scenario analysis. I also said ASSUMING there are 4 scum AND Thor is town. I obviously don't believe Thor is town, I believe he is scum. But the point is, even under that worst case scenario, the scum splits are obvious IF THOR IS TOWN. If Thor is scum, then the splits are much more murky, and have to be in order for what is happening to happen.

In fact, you're taking all of the worst case scenario analysis and equating it to what is likely to occur.

My whole premise is that for Thor to be town, and for there to be this long to go without someone intending to hammer, a town Thor must have a substantial number of scum on the wagon because otherwise scum would at the very least claim intent to hammer to get the claim out of Thor. That's the whole fucking point.

There are two problems with this. 1. You're comparing the worst-case scenario for Thor-town to the likely scenario for Thor-scum. 2. You're assuming the scum

are

going to claim intent to hammer no matter their circumstance. (that's my analysis; my conclusion is that you're making it up )

In post 909, _Sherlock_ wrote:
The premise that "if you were town and there were ANY scum not voting for you right now, they would have given an intent to hammer, just to stop this charade of you stalling for more time" is faulty because...


Now fill in the blank.

I'm pretty sure it's your job to prove your statement true instead of me proving it false. Why would ANY scum give an intent to hammer? Do you see that opportunity for everyone off of Thor's wagon?

Because I am town, I know I am town, and therefore if Thor is town as well, that means the scum must be on his wagon already, and there must not be a scum available to call intent to hammer, because it is in the scum's best interest to call intent to hammer in this scenario.

Except, again, you're assuming that scum will do this 100% of the time, without taking into account how it would make them look (obviously bad, because you're saying scum would do it all the time, right?), how optimally they're playing, etc.


And you still didn't respond as for why I'm scum. Conclusions, analysis, pot, kettle, black.

[_Sherlock_]

Kinetic, I'm stating conclusions that you have made; I don't KNOW why you made them.

My analysis is that you didn't put any of my quotes in your post, especially the one about telling me I'm scum, but you still wrote a gigantic post. My conclusion is that you're dodging.

[_Sherlock_]

@Troille - you have expressed vague indifference between a Thor and Kinetic lynch.

Here's a crazy plot - shift your vote. If it doesn't matter much to you, at least vote the wagon that will be bigger by said shift.

^Scum

Where's the analysis to this conclusion?

[_Sherlock_]

holy crap guys

I skimmed on my phone. Post coming.

[_Sherlock_]

Then it must be very hard for you to have notes about all the reads I shared with Abaddon I suppose.

I made mental notes, correct. Its hard to keep them organized.

Why did you not put these notes somewhere? You obviously have written notes, and you found that important enough to point out, but you didn't write it down as evidence. At least find specific examples of this now.

You also seem to have the problem of not giving any analysis to your conclusions for someone who has a problem with that kind of thing. Seriously.

@Troille - you have expressed vague indifference between a Thor and Kinetic lynch.

Here's a crazy plot - shift your vote. If it doesn't matter much to you, at least vote the wagon that will be bigger by said shift.

^Scum

Yea, kwll is scum. I'm sure he'll hammer me after this post too. -.-;

I really can't believe I have to claim before Thor, this is kind of bullshit, but you know what, I'm done with this town. I'm Vanilla. Whoop'de'fucking'do.

unvote;vote: kwll

If I'm going to die, might as well having been after naming toxic scum and voting his two buddies who made themselves very apparent to get me lynched.

I have a feeling pulling out specific examples will be difficult because the only thing you've really done is attacked me and been defensive. If I'm scum, who are my scum buddies? Who else is scummy in your mind? If I'm town, and you really are town, who are the scum?

I dunno.

3. I don't do lists of reads. But here's what I've currently got; I think you, Idiotking, and Toxic are probably town. I think Slandaar is lurking, and that makes me think he's scummy, but I'm currently modest on that read because I want to give him time to keep doing whatever it is he might be doing. I think Kinetic is scum (hint: hence the vote). I actually have basically no read on anyone else because the bulk of the game is lurking and being too scared to advance any actual legit opinions.

I might have provided some opinions on players in here. if you squint and rummage around maybe you can find some.
Let me know - I actually can't.

Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum. SCUMSUCSCUSMNCSUCMSCUSCMSUCUSCMSUCSUCSMUCSCUSCMSUCSMUCSMCUSUMCS
SCUM

How can ANYONE not read this post and clearly see this is scum?

Somebody please lynch this guy.

SCUM!

Yea, you're right, the 4 other townies on Thor might be more likely to flip on me than the two townies on my wagon, but I'm holding out hope for those two.

And Trollie: You shoot if the person lynched flips town, you don't if they flip scum. That's your play as Vig or SK.

---

Trollie, I know what you're most likely thinking. I refuse to let you shoot kwll tonight.

However, if you're talking about Slandaar, okay.

[_Sherlock_]

Some don't get it. Claiming at L-1 is NOT a given anymore. Claiming at intent to hammer is.

[_Sherlock_]

Wow. This will make for interesting wagon analysis in the future.Each wagon consists of two of my more likely suspects in the front two spots, and all of the more likely town in the back three (with the exception of Jacob).

[_Sherlock_]

If you are town, yes. It's more of "possible scum" vs. "not probable scum".

[_Sherlock_]

@Slandaar: You're in the PoE list of five that I keep bringing up. The way I see it, it's either Thor/toxic/{Slandaar, Jacob}, Thor/Kinetic/{Slandaar, Jacob}, or {Thor, Kinetic, toxic}/Slandaar/Jacob.

[_Sherlock_]

Yes. It's a possibility. Bussing does happen.

[_Sherlock_]

Hmm.

Would anyone have a problem with me hammering Thor? Kinetic is starting to feel town again.

[_Sherlock_]

Yes, I am stating intent to hammer Thor.

No, Kinetic, I'm not unvoting you. I'd be happy to let a scum out himself at your expense.

[_Sherlock_]

So, explain this for me:

Today is Thanksgiving.

I've caught up overnight

, but left my laptop at home. I'll post it when I don't have to phonepost

He caught up overnight, but didn't submit his bodyguard action...

Also, why would you specifically be informed that your action N1 was randomized?

[_Sherlock_]

Meh. I actually like his claim.

I'm not switching. I'd be willing to quickwagon Slandaar, but a Kinetic lynch is alright with me.

[_Sherlock_]

Hey Thor, now's probably not a good time to piss me off.

I didn't think it was "unfair" for you to not claim, that's bullshit. I just had a feeling that I was wrong about Kinetic.

VOTE: Slandaar

Will be able to switch back to Kinetic if this doesn't work out.

[_Sherlock_]

Hmm.

I'm now seeing {Kinetic, toxic}/Slandaar/Jacob as the most likely scenario.

[_Sherlock_]

I doubt that Slandaar's a PR. If he claims one, I'll likely want to lynch him anyway for there being too many PRs.

[_Sherlock_]

@Trollie: I'm pretty sure most roles can't target themselves.

And I'd much rather you wait until tomorrow, where we can discuss it longer.

[_Sherlock_]

Vote hopping is due to me having a lot of options at the moment. Every current wagon is part of my list of five possible scum.

[_Sherlock_]

Jacob, can you post your updated chart thingamajig?

[_Sherlock_]

Oh, you're talking about my switch onto Kinetic.

Trollie, I want to hear all of your reads before the day is over, unless Thor is protecting you.

[_Sherlock_]

Not buying it.

[_Sherlock_]

Also, congrats on that being your 5,000th post.

[_Sherlock_]

Cool. VOTE: Kinetic

Kinetic thinks Idiot and Jacob are Masons. If he flips scum, they're both pretty much confirmed town.

I'll worry about the PR stuff tomorrow.

[_Sherlock_]

If he flips town, that's another person off my suspect pool.

[_Sherlock_]

I'm a Town Cop. I had an innocent Night 1 and have a guilty for Night 2.

I want everyone to explicitly state that they aren't counterclaiming me before I out my inno.

[_Sherlock_]

Out my guilty*

[_Sherlock_]

Also, my role pretty much confirms that Trollie is lying. Claim that you aren't a full Vig or be signaled off as an SK.

[_Sherlock_]

Also, yeah,

today

's a good massclaim day.

[_Sherlock_]

Actually, we're in MyLo with a supposed non-Mafia shooter.

The following living players have claimed:

Sherlock - Cop
Trollie - Vigilante
Slandaar - x1 Bulletproof
Jacob - Neighbor
Idiot - Neighbor
Kwll - VT

That leaves toxic and Konowa.

[_Sherlock_]

Trollie's not a threat as SK. He needs the Mafia dead, too, and we won't rid of him until they're all gone.

[_Sherlock_]

Pretty sure that would depend on him having a Strongman ability.

[_Sherlock_]

Delta was my N1 inno.

I'll wait for toxic to claim, I guess.

[_Sherlock_]

Slandaar is not aligned with the town.

I almost investigated toxic, but I wasn't sure that the town would lynch Slandaar after my death. Toxic probably would have been a better choice.

I don't want a lynch yet.

[_Sherlock_]

So:

Sherlock - Town Cop
Konowa - Vanilla Townie

Trollie - Vigilante/Serial Killer

Slandaar - Mafia ???

toxic
Jacob
Idiot
kwll

As long as Trollie has shots left, we should be able to get rid of the Mafia easily. I very seriously doubt that Jacob and Idiot are fakeclaiming neighbors together, so there's max one scum in them. Therefore, there has to be at least one scum in {toxic, kwll}. It's simple; Trollie shoots one of them. If they flip town, we lynch the other one, leaving us with the Neighbors and Konowa in LyLo. If they flip scum, we sort it out from there.

Right now, I'm calling a Slandaar-toxic-Jacob scumteam.

[_Sherlock_]

Konowa and Sherlock are clearly buddies who are trying to force through a fake guilty on me

Konowa even starts the move off before Sherlock

Nice try but you shoulda waited for the 'guilty' and then done a bit of acting.

Anyways Sherlock is confscum.

VOTE: Sherlock

Genius.

[_Sherlock_]

Slandaar, I'm curious - who did you think I was?

[_Sherlock_]

SHIT I WAS DOING AWESOME

[_Sherlock_]

Okay. Sell that argument.

Kay, you can delete it mod

[_Sherlock_]

Slandaar wasn't the most suspected.

I had my investigation on toxic until about 3 hours before deadline, if that gives you an idea of what I was thinking. I already said that I didn't think I made the smartest choice.

[_Sherlock_]

It was between you and Thor; one was town, one wasn't, FMPOV.

Maybe Konowa suspected you, since "everyone and their dog" was calling you scum.

[_Sherlock_]

Why would I need a Cop guilty to get you lynched as scum?

[_Sherlock_]

I mean, seriously. There are so many flaws in the logic of calling me fakeclaiming scum, as well as with Konowa.

[_Sherlock_]

Except for the fact that Thor was a Bodyguard who was generally seen as scummy and had a townread on me.

[_Sherlock_]

How is it at all likely that I shot the scummy Bodyguard that had a townread on me?

[_Sherlock_]

I don't remember many people calling you scum so whoever you killed that would probably be the case
He was a PR
It makes me look terrible which goes well with your fake claim

I see you still havn't shown these flaws. How amazing.

BODYGUARD. He's going to die anyway. I have absolutely no advantage killing a scummy player that thinks I'm town and will probably die by other means.

Again, I have no need to set anything up in order to get you lynched. However, this argument will go on forever because we are confirmed scum to each other.

I haven't shown you those flaws because being at school kinda hinders your ability to make long posts.

[_Sherlock_]

No time for a more detailed explanation, but one reason is PoE. My options are two in {toxic, kwll, Jacob, Idiot}. Since Jacob and Idiot are neighbors, there's at least one scum in {toxic, kwll}. And I've already explained how kwll is obviously town.

[_Sherlock_]

(that was pretty obviously implied, but yeah)

[_Sherlock_]

I see two possibilities:

1. Slandaar is Bulletproof scum
2. The Mafia have a Roleblocking ability and used it on you

I find the first one more likely, simply because 1-shot Bulletproof makes sense with the given roles in nhammen's ruleset.

[_Sherlock_]

My guess is that the Mafia shot Thor's target (most likely you), and you shot Bulletproof Slandaar.

Slandaar most likely wasn't going to die during the night, even if you shot him.

[_Sherlock_]

I have the Cop Investigate ability. As shown on the front page, it let's me know whether or not someone's part of the town.

Do you think that Slandaar is not going to claim to be part of the town?

-_-

[_Sherlock_]

I have an alternative idea.

No-lynch, Trollie doesn't shoot. I get another investigation, and we're put in the same situation otherwise. Most likely, Trollie gets shot.

[_Sherlock_]

Also, my role pretty much confirms that Trollie is lying. Claim that you aren't a full Vig or be signaled off as an SK.

WAIT

how did i miss this. explain now.

How likely do you see the possibility of a full Vig and a full Cop in a Mini Normal?

[_Sherlock_]

Now anyway...i forgot if i asked this already

Sherlock:

why did u wait to give ur reads

sherlock:

why are you not voting someone who u know is conf-scum

By reads, you mean results, right? I already explained this. I was waiting for a possible counterclaim. That way, I could have a chance of catching two scum at once.

I'm not voting Slandaar so that the discussion will continue.

I have an alternative idea.

No-lynch, Trollie doesn't shoot. I get another investigation, and we're put in the same situation otherwise. Most likely, Trollie gets shot.

lol

He is obviously scum, no real cop would assume they survive a night when the only protective role is dead.

Feel free to shoot me if you no-lynch; you'll be left with confirmed scum in you and a Vig/SK who can get rid of another scum for a night. Meanwhile, if Trollie is killed, I just get an extra shot at finding scum, and we dual it out again.

I haven't shown you those flaws because being at school kinda hinders your ability to make long posts.

What happened? 24 hour school?!

Or church and starting up my modded game (and school again today).

OK

Cop
BG
Vig
Neighbours

Thats a lot of PR

Now think about;
BG
1shot BP
Vig
Neighbours

Clearly it is more balanced.

That's why, when I claimed, I said that I thought Trollie was an SK. Also, the Neighbors are kinda useless if one of them is scum.

PEdit: Jacob beat me to that one.

[_Sherlock_]

He's not cleared; he's definitely more Townie than you, in my eyes. From the beginning of Day 2, I said that I believed there was one scum in {Thor, Kinetic, toxic}. And the meta thing, regardless of what is said, does hold significant weight.

[_Sherlock_]

Feel free to shoot me if you no-lynch; you'll be left with confirmed scum in you and a Vig/SK who can get rid of another scum for a night. Meanwhile, if Trollie is killed, I just get an extra shot at finding scum, and we dual it out again.

Can't you see why it would be a bad thing to no-lynch? As it stands we have no reason at all to trust you. You've claimed cop, but why should we believe you? You seem to have this thing against confirming things, and it's terribly anti-town. We need to know if we can trust you before any results you have are useful.

I didn't say I preferred that option. My preferred course of action would be to lynch toxic, and if he's town, shoot kwll. That way, we get rid of scum, I stay alive and get another investigation for a chance at getting all of the scum (or Slandaar kills me for a trade-off), and we're left in an overall good situation. Of course, that only works if I'm trusted, but so does lynching Slandaar.

How have I been "against confirming things?"

[_Sherlock_]

Don't you have to trust me to lynch Slandaar?

Oh, I get it - you want to lynch Slandaar now just so that you have safety in shooting me if he's town.

[_Sherlock_]

Lynching toxic/shooting kwll would get me another investigation and kill scum.

[_Sherlock_]

I GET THAT. I AM SAYING THAT THAT IS OUR BEST OPTION FROM MY PERSPECTIVE.

@Konowa: There are more advantageous ways to go about it. It's basically either having a 1v1 between me and Slandaar or between toxic and kwll. Which one do you feel more confident you can find the scum in?

[_Sherlock_]

Think about this from a long-term perspective. Let's say for a second that the worst-case scenario happens: we lynch wrong between me and Slandaar and shoot the other tonight. You're left with you, Jacob, toxic, kwll, and Konowa - LyLo. You'll lynch between toxic and kwll with no backup.

However, let's take the worst-case scenario from my plan: we lynch wrong between toxic and kwll and have the other shot tonight. Then, you're left with me, Slandaar, you, Jacob, and Konowa - also LyLo. The difference is, you're choosing between me and Slandaar, and I will know who the third scum is by then.

There is no drawback to it.

[_Sherlock_]

Because it will confirm Slandaar as scum, effectively giving them the choice of having the 1v1 between me and Slandaar or the two neighbors.

[_Sherlock_]

Whatever. Nothing good will happen without the whole town agreeing on it. This is effectively making the game twice as hard for the sake of not having to choose between me and Slandaar.

VOTE: Slandaar

[_Sherlock_]

I don't believe Trollie. He said he had me as a town read for certain posts.

[_Sherlock_]

If you're telling the truth, Thor probably protected me.

How does you shooting me and me surviving make me more likely scum? If you shot me, I actually think it makes me more likely town, as the only options are that mafia shot me too or mafia shot Thor. Take your pick of which of those is more likely.

[_Sherlock_]

Yes Trollie, I'm avoiding the other possibility that involves me being scum.

I laughed when Idiotking said what I was thinking after flipping from Page 58 to 59.

Just to clarify something to Slandaar/Trollie/Konowa if you haven't looked it up yourself yet: Klick is my new account for kondi2424.

[_Sherlock_]

@Trollie: Here's a possibility:

Thor sees me as town, wants to protect me from the NK because I may get killed if the Mafia think he's on Trollie (or, he's protecting me from Trollie - less likely). Mafia shoots me because there's not really any other overarching townread besides Idiot, and there's Neighbor WIFOM there.

I personally find it a coincidence that the Mod made the Bodyguard to protect from all kills, and last night happened to have a missing kill and at least one person shooting me. If Slandaar is town, the Mafia certainly didn't shoot him.

[_Sherlock_]

Y'know, 'cuz he's scummy.

[_Sherlock_]

I'm implying that Thor saved me from both kills...

[_Sherlock_]

do u not get how that doesnt make any sense?

I call scumslip

town-sherlock says "mafia didn't shoot him cause hes scum" i dont get why u even said anything about slandaar.

why wouldn't they shoot me, or idiotking?

There is no slip there, and I have no answer to those questions.

I did, however, gather evidence that suggests both that you're lying and that you're a Serial Killer. The big one is right here:

Here's what I think happened:
Mafia shoots me, because they know town will never lynch me because

i am no threat to them right now

, and that Thor will be an easy lynch target tomorrow.

[_Sherlock_]

Here's the problem though: We need Trollie's vote to get a scum lynch to go through.

[_Sherlock_]

You wouldn't have used the wording "I am no threat t them right now" as a Vig.

@Idiot: Explain how we can lynch scum without Trollie.

[_Sherlock_]

So I am curious...how many protective roles does town have? This PR thing is getting out of control. I am truly beleving someone is lying about their power role....

...

[_Sherlock_]

I have a guilty on Slandaar. Someone HAS to be lying.

[_Sherlock_]

Why are people trying to get a read off of me not posting? I recently started my modded game, and that took my focus away from here.

What exactly am I holding up?

[_Sherlock_]

sherlock...I am ready to vote you for not sending me an invite to your game....!!!!!

I now feel very sad...you made me a sad panda

Well, it needs two replacements if you're interested! *shameless*

Trollie, what exactly did I promise to post?

[_Sherlock_]

...

What the fuck, Trollie?

[_Sherlock_]

I do.

[_Sherlock_]

I'd actually like to hear Idiot's mentioning of those three names as well. Jacob, can you do that for me?

[_Sherlock_]

I agree. You can choose your shot, and I'll investigate someone that's not them.

[_Sherlock_]

That's also my preferred shot.

I guess I'm okay with a hammer now.

[_Sherlock_]

I have an innocent on Idiotking. I'm not buying into anything like "Neighbor Godfather" with a partner that doesn't have any power, so Idiotking should now be considered 100% town.

I now have yet another reason for being obvious town.

Here's what we do: We lynch one of kwll/Jacob. If they're scum, we celebrate. If they're town, I investigate the other. Either I get a guilty and face off with them, or I get an innocent and confirm the existence of a Godfather.

Idiot, I

strongly

suggest that we lynch Jacob today, but you should decide.

[_Sherlock_]

I saw the correct choice here as the person that would be of the most use if confirmed town.

I also had doubts. If everyone thought Idiot was town and he wasn't, me investigating him would have pretty much been the only way for him to be caught.

[_Sherlock_]

I still doubt that I'm dying.

[_Sherlock_]

Actually, the Mafia can't kill me any more. If we lynch the town between you/kwll and I die, the last scum is confirmed scum.

[_Sherlock_]

Sure. But he'll never get lynched on that paranoia.

[_Sherlock_]

DAMMIT

I just gave you advice if you're scum

[_Sherlock_]

Nothing. <3

[_Sherlock_]

I've been going through connections/VCA for the past hour or so. I'm pretty sure I know who the scum is, but I'll finish.

[_Sherlock_]

VOTE: kwll

Slandaar's and toxic's interactions Days 1 and 2 convince me that kwll is scum. I looked at Slandaar, toxic, and kwll vs. Slandaar, toxic, and Jacob in ISO. Slandaar and toxic have a huge argument with each other early-game, showing that they both have the capability of distancing/bussing effectively. toxic also attacks both Sable Tip and kwll at times, and Slandaar votes kwll once or twice. However, their interaction with Jacob is extremely minimal over the course of the game. I largely doubt that they both had the strategy to greatly distance from each-other and barely interact with their third partner. Therefore, my guess is that they did what they could to distance with kwll as well, as he had relatively few posts.

But what really sells me on this more than anything else is this:

OK

Cop
BG
Vig
Neighbours

Thats a lot of PR

Now think about;
BG
1shot BP
Vig
Neighbours

Clearly it is more balanced.

Slandaar makes the assumption that the neighbors are part of the town's PRs. Freudian slip, Idiot and Jacob are both town.

[_Sherlock_]

Yes, I've seen that. However, his neighbor was the Cop, and that's how it was set up to be. I doubt it for this game.

[_Sherlock_]

Fast day.

[_Sherlock_]

Well shit.

I owe you one, Idiot/whoever was town and suggested that I not clear kwll on meta.

[_Sherlock_]

I got it right in the end, though. Does that count for anything?

[_Sherlock_]

kwll, I normally don't rely on anyone's cases but my own. What was happening today was inevitable.

[_Sherlock_]

Also, I pick the name "Sherlock" for an alt and get a Cop Role PM.

Priceless.

[_Sherlock_]

I was impressed by your scum play, kwll. Your play style makes it really tough to tell your alignment. Notice how my vote was entirely based upon your buddies' actions.

Speaking of which, Slandaar and toxic also did a great job on that. If only one of you were dead, I would have had a tough time finding connections between any of you.