Mini 1390: Game Over

[Thor665]

Too late, Sherlock, I confirmed!

...do I even know you? Not in the Biblical sense, I'd remember that, but in a game sense?

Also, I'm confirmed town. The wagon on me is stupid. Also, someone should tell me an awesome case I can sheep because I'm not going to read the rest of the game on the presumption it is boring.

[Thor665]

Cool - who is the second most likely scum after me?

[Thor665]

PEdit: After you? Toss-up between toxic and Kinetic. One is scum, one is not. At this moment, it's more likely toxic.

Skimming just this page feels like Toxic is more town adn Kinetic more scum - what am I missing?

[Thor665]

Last page - whichevs.

[Thor665]

1. Yep.

2. Don't really care - who is your 2nd top scumspect and why?

[Thor665]

sorry about that mod.
we have toxic and kin going at it like cats and dogs...
addodon being replaced by thor who self claims he is town.
I am not quite sure what to make of all this.

I am [not] willing to vote yet and I will be coming up with some questions.

Yeah, someone claiming to be town and two people fighting - *highly* irregular and strange play here on mafiascum.
Just remember to take a few deep breaths and steady yourself before you wade into this utter InSaNiTy!

[Thor665]

Because I am.
Have you managed any reads yet?

[Thor665]

Holy cow, this entire game is lurksacks, isn't it?

[Thor665]

So?

[Thor665]

@thor

when you say you are confirmed town, are you confirming this yourself or have i missed some vital piece of evidence confirming your townieness?

Mod confirmed - it's in the title of the thread fer cryin' out.

I still don't grok how anyone thinks Kinetic looks like the better of the two in the debate.
He's functionally accusing Toxic of scumhunting him and then getting snooty about it.

[Thor665]

@Kinetic - as super exciting as this discussion is, how far are you from finishing your read?

Vote: Kinetic

[Thor665]

Thanks, I finished my read yesterday, I was waiting on Abaddon to return because I was ready to string him up. That's why I haven't been voting for toxic, I've been waiting for the proper time to vote my other top suspect.

Show of hands, who actually believes this?
Anyone?
Bueller?

[Thor665]

I'm sorry you had to replace into a game where you were pretty much confirmed scum. But, you know, I'm sure you can get a t-shirt or something on your way out.

Oh, sweet.

So you can explain your case on me then?

Thor;
Can you provide a link, I want to see.

My second scumread; ISO me.

1. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22828 (not officially a 'replace in' but I functionally didn't exist in the game for the first day so I think that counts. Good luck trying to find me ever doing it as scum.)

2. Why kwll?

*raises hand*

Considering I was his prime suspicion.
Also considering that I actually took a swing at him with like my first or second post of the game...
Why do you think he waited so long to interact with me, and it took me voting him to cause it?

For thor,
Your slot looks scummy from way earlier in the game. Abaddon went into a tiffy about toxics reaction test and basically labeled him scum and then after while just had toxic labeled as fair town....

Why is that scummy?

[Thor665]

I'm sorry you had to replace into a game where you were pretty much confirmed scum. But, you know, I'm sure you can get a t-shirt or something on your way out.

Oh, sweet.

So you can explain your case on me then?

[Thor665]

I looked at your posts - here, I'll repeat the entire case.

Abbadon calls something a strawman that isn't

technically

a strawman.
Abbadon defends Toxic.

...vote Abbadon.

Did I miss anything?

[Thor665]

Above is

@Kinetic

natch.

[Thor665]

Dodge, dive, duck, dip, and dodge.

[Thor665]

@thor, im not gonna let u come in here, and keep deflecting away from our heavy suspicion of your slot. Yes, what you are doing is good (in some cases) and helpful, but we need stuff from you to help us figure out whats going on with ur slot. I want a list of reads. Yeah, i get it, your lazy and dont wanna catch up. Too bad, just use what you've read so far then, idc, but i want reads.

Okay, sparky, a couple things.

1. I haven't deflected *anything* because I actually haven't been accused of a single thing since I got here - I've just had people quietly sitting with their votes on me. I've even asked one person (Kinetic) to explain those reads...and then he deflected me. So...yeah.

2. I am doing good.

3. I don't do lists of reads. But here's what I've currently got; I think you, Idiotking, and Toxic are probably town. I think Slandaar is lurking, and that makes me think he's scummy, but I'm currently modest on that read because I want to give him time to keep doing whatever it is he might be doing. I think Kinetic is scum (hint: hence the vote). I actually have basically no read on anyone else because the bulk of the game is lurking and being too scared to advance any actual legit opinions.

[Thor665]

@Kinetic - why you keep ducking?

[Thor665]

I looked at your posts - here, I'll repeat the entire case.

Abbadon calls something a strawman that isn't

technically

a strawman.
Abbadon defends Toxic.

...vote Abbadon.

Did I miss anything?

[Thor665]

Thor hasn't DONE anything since he joined, the only thing we can base his "play" off of is his slot. Which, btw, doesn't change alignment when he replaced. Abaddon is still scum, it doesn't matter if he's wearing a Thor suit right now.

You're right.
Other than coming in, scumhunting multiple players, offering opinions on all the big arguments, and calling someone scum and voting them, I haven't DONE anything.

You're still dodging my question.

Busted scum.

Thor; the link isn't a very good example it doesn't fit the criteria, do you have another?]/quote]
Actually, it very much does.
I'm basically not there for Day 1.
Day 2 I announce that I'm the most obvious town in the game.
That has a period of inactivity from the slot to the point I'm basically re-entering the game, and also has me announcing me being obv. town off limited evidence.
I'm not looking any more - how about you look?

[Thor665]

Other people finding me scummy does not validate your reasons.
I'm not asking you for a giant case, I'm asking what I missed. That really ought to be able to be done by just telling me - I'm not demanding links to evidence, just the case.
You are continuing to dodge.

[Thor665]

Heck, you could at least tell me why I'm lying about not having DONE anything, yeah? You hit me with that, even though I'm blatantly actually doing things, so, y'know, justify it?

[Thor665]

Other people finding me scummy does not validate your reasons.
I'm not asking you for a giant case, I'm asking what I missed. That really ought to be able to be done by just telling me - I'm not demanding links to evidence, just the case.
You are continuing to dodge.

You are just like toxic, a broken record, stating the same thing over and over again like it somehow makes it more true that way. I stated enough reasons to justify my vote. Other people are voting you as well. Talk to them. I'm done responding to you.

Actually, you haven't presented a decent case.
In fact, I'd dare say your case is a case on Toxic (sorta) but you're voting me because I'm vaguely connected to him.
It's the opposite of a good case.
Also, I'm not actually repeating unreasonable or strange requests - I'm just asking you to justify the otherwise clearly scum motivated vote move you did earlier.

And, yeah, you are *still* dodging.
You don't actually have a case on me, it was all self-preservation and smoke and mirrors.
You are scum.

[Thor665]

Actually, you haven't presented a decent case.
In fact, I'd dare say your case is a case on Toxic (sorta) but you're voting me because I'm vaguely connected to him.
It's the opposite of a good case.
Also, I'm not actually repeating unreasonable or strange requests - I'm just asking you to justify the otherwise clearly scum motivated vote move you did earlier.

And, yeah, you are *still* dodging.
You don't actually have a case on me, it was all self-preservation and smoke and mirrors.
You are scum.

[Thor665]

So you rarguement is that I'm scummy for asking you to explain your case on me, then doing some research when you say you already presented it, then asking a question about my research and it being unreasonable to do so.

Meanwhile, the town action is to declare all conversation with me is over, despite the fact you spent half this day phase arguing with your other "scum read"?

Yeah, change of play style mid way in order to try to bluster past proving you had real reasons to suspect this slot and that it wasn't a vote made to save yourself?
Scum.

[Thor665]

And no one can even tell me why that is yet.

@Jacob - how many games have you played? I'm really trying to figure out why you think aggression=scum considering your join date.

[Thor665]

Do you think I am being 'over-assertive' in a scummy way?

[Thor665]

Not nesciarly scummy

But didn't you say I was more scummy because I was aggressive?
I'm confused now - clarify?

[Thor665]

Why is Kinetic so clearly town?
I don't see it.

[Thor665]

You see, I get a totally opposite reaction to it.

What do you think of my reply to his 'Thor hasn't DONE anything' accusation?

Also, what do you think of my thoughts as regards the logistic truth of his waiting to vote me till the 'right time' when the 'right time' was apparently right when he was becoming a competing wagon and his vote pushed him back into 2nd place?

[Thor665]

Also, while answering those - is 807 the reason he looks town?
Any particular point of 807 doing that?

[Thor665]

So you're saying there's a group of three people, at least one of whom you think is scum.
You also don't find me more suspicious...but you're going to pay more attention to me than the other two because I'm more assertive in giving town my opinions?

This works as a scumhunting method in your mind?

[Thor665]

....okay.

Who are your top scumreads currently?

[Thor665]

Defending Toxic and using 'strawman' on something that may or may not have been 'strawmanning' is as close as I've gotten to an answer.
Also - asking the question you just did.

[Thor665]

Thor replaced a scummy slot and is unreadable so we're lynching him.

That's your case on me?
If you are town you need to go back and play in some Newbies. You think you have a 50/50 for scum and you're going to lynch me instead because I'm hard to read?

That's the limited case I've put on you. You're misrepresenting the fact that three other people are also voting you and you refuse to address their cases on you. In fact, you refuse to admit those votes even exist.

Ah! So that is your case on me...ciute, I knew it was terribad.
As for everyone else - they don't have cases on me either, or they'd be saying them.
Look at what Sherlock just did.
Look at Kwll with his "have to do this now because he's the closest to lynch" when we have Six Days left to deadline.

Yeah, color me impressed.

@Kwll - do you even understand when people are supposed to claim?

Pop quiz: why is 6 days close enough to deadline to lynch me...because I'm the closest to lynch. What was your scum read? Am I it? Why? If not - why are you not trying to get people to vote your scum read?

@GAME - WHAT IS THIS GAK!?!

[Thor665]

@Kinetic - which cases do you think I should be addressing?

[Thor665]

Here, I can answer this: People are supposed to claim in four circumstances. First, when there is a mass claim and it is their turn. Second, when they have a result and claiming will reinforce that result. Third, when someone else has claimed the role they had, and counter-claiming will set up a viable 1-1 trade with scum. Or Four, when they are at Lynch -1, regardless of how close to the deadline it is.

How the Smurf does the deadline have anything to do with it? If you are at Lynch -1, you claim. You don't delay while you try to make up a fake claim. You don't delay until we're almost at deadline to try and get the most out of the little time your claim gives you to survive and try to steer the lynch away from you. You SMURFING CLAIM, scum.

1. You actually don't claim till L-1 plus intent to hammer in my universe. It's actually not an unusual universe.

2. I never said deadline had anything to do with claiming...so? You're mixing up where I pointed out that acting like this was a deadline pressured point to vote me was derp and terrible. No need to keep pointing out how you're not reading.

Why is your next post not a claim?

Because I'm not claiming.

[Thor665]

@Kinetic - which cases do you think I should be addressing?

Dode, duck, dive, dip, and dodge.

[Thor665]

Notice that that post was a tl;dr towards Konowa and that "scummy slot" implies Abaddon did scummy things that I have yet to mention.

Abaddon was scummy in his own right. Thor, if we're going that route, from my PoV, you have a 2/3 chance of being scum from PoE of my reads alone.

And these reasons are...?

PEdit: How do you dode?

Its all in the sternum.

[Thor665]

PoE is actually fine - as long as his PoE has sufficient evidence.

If you think it's bad you need to defend me - why are you doing it?

[Thor665]

Link?

[Thor665]

Heck - just tell me it's all in one big post and I'll go find it.

[Thor665]

Here's what I've got.

VOTE: Abaddon

I'm actually fine with that compromise wagon until I finish my analysis. According to my current reads, he's scum too.

Sorry guys, but I can't see myself getting much further on my analyses any time soon. At least you all have a good read on Idiot from me!

If I consider Kinetic town, it leaves me with the pool of {Abaddon, toxic, Jacob, Slandaar}. That's actually a really good pool, in my opinion. I would guess Abaddon/toxic/Slandaar from those four.

That's pretty pathetic.
Could you explain why Kinetic is so clearly town? Maybe hand me 1-2 specifics?

[Thor665]

Oh, and when you explain Kinetic = town...could you also explain how you think his case on me makes any sense at all? That would be super sexy.

[Thor665]

Kinetic isn't clearly town. There's one scum in Kinetic/toxic, and I'm leaning toxic as the more likely scum due to this.

Is it just that he posted a big wall or something else?

Delta is here, and kwll is here.)

Explain Delta's townslip?
Looking at all the available meta (specifically - meta we can't openly discuss due to rules about ongoings) I see this as a weak clear of Kwll. But I also think it's a solid town tell on you.

Explain the Delta thing (and the Kinetic thing) and we can move forward. We should lynch Kinetic or Slandaar.

[Thor665]

Also looking at the recent interactions between Thor, Kinetic and Toxic I think that given the interactions between them it is highly likely that at least one of the threesome is scum.

@Thor, most likely to be scum is still kwell, his posts i don't like, will probably make a more detailed case after thursday. Slaander definatly seams slippery and you concern me.

Also, why is Kinetic town/highly likely scum to you?

[Thor665]

It's more of the fact that his read on me almost completely parallels to my read on Idiotking. This shows that he's using a town (to me) thought process.

Yeah...but you called Idiot town, whereas Kinetic just tosses some mud at you and then fencesits.

Delta asked for Kinetic's read on Tommy. Today. This is a townslip because scum are going to know who they killed. It also makes sense from town!-Delta who really isn't paying too much attention to the game. We also know that Tommy was the Mafia nightkill because Trollie claimed the Cheery shot.

Really that just says that Delta is a terrible human being who should not have been in the game at all.
But, yeah, I agree it is more likely to come from town - good catch, you can definitely be town now.
Your read on me sucks balls, is lazy play, and makes you look derp however. As does the wagon around it. Why aren't you doing good reads like this for my slot?

@Thor:

Knowing that I'm aware of Slandaar's meta, give me good reason to suspect him.

[/quote]
Knowing that I never pay attention to Slandaar's meta...
He's dodged me today, I don't think Town Slandaar would have dodged me because he'd be paranoid about me.
I still think your Kinetic read is bad and based on fluff though - because let's be frank, even if I am scum there's probably a scum on my wagon right now - and Kinetic by a solid shake is the worst vote there (followed by some combo of Slandaar and Kwll)

In any case, with the wagon on me we have you town, Troille town - that means one scum in Kwll/Slandaar/Kinetic at the very least.
Off the wagon I sadly eyeball Idiot because he sprang forward to defend me as lynch grew near...that said I agree with his issues, so maybe it's just town energy. I'm conflicted, I still want him to be town though.
Jacob looks likely town for his reaction to the wagon.
Konowa is Delta and is a terrible human being but likely town.
Leaves Toxic as the wildcard.

We've got three scum more than likely. Means these are high probability;
That would be 1 on me, 1 on Kinetic (unless Kinetic is scum) 1 off any wagon.
Or, 2 on me and 1 off the wagon if Kinetic is scum.

If all of your reads are right (Kinetic is town) then It's Slandaar or Kwll
Toxic or Thor
and Jacob.
Hint: none of your other scumspects are trying to get town points for lynching Thor...hence Thor is either not scum, or you are wrong about one of your other scumspects.

You're voting me and need to be convinced to vote Slandaar?
Derp.

[Thor665]

Thor's wagon stuff is pretty nonsense guessing numbers of scum on a wagon is just bad; someone of his experience would know this.

Wait, seriously, you're telling me I should know better than to do wagon analysis?
Wagon analysis...which is literally like...the *entire basis* of how I scumhunt? (at least 50%...really annoying barrage questions would be the other 50%)
What is this gak?
JUSTIFY PL0X!

When you say dodged you mean apart from the interaction we had which ended with you activating lack of effort Thorscum tell?

Wait, seriously? You're telling me I'm not lazy as town?
Refusing to do requested homework or refusing to read the game or refusing to provide links...y'know, things I literally do in EVERY GAME I PLAY? That stuff?
What is this gak?
JUSTIFY PL0X!

[Thor665]

So, lets say for this you are town, why are there not 3 scum on you?
Why can't there be 2 scum on kinetic?
Why can't there be 2 scum off both wagons?

ie; This numbers stuff is just plain bad; it is not wagon analysis it is inventing numbers for lolz; I am pretty sure you know that though.

1-3. Because statistically it's highly unlikely.
They're all possible, and at a later point in the game they're all worth considering.

As someone with half a brain I'm pretty sure you know that though.

Dear Thor

You seem to have ignored the point that you were saying I was dodging you when... I wasn't? You also seem to insinuate that I should be paranoid and would like to know where you get the impression I would ever be paranoid as town or scum.

I will then fulfill your request

Best Wishes
Slandaar

Dear Scum,

This, right here? It is another dodge.
I think you should be paranoid of me due to he third link in my signature.

Now fulfill my request.

Regards,
Thor.

[Thor665]

You've been playing since 2007 - are you really telling me all town claim at L-1 regardless of hammer intent?
I'd love to hear you say that.

The case on me still doesn't exist and you're still trying to act like it does.
Your case is a flat out scummy case because it's so nonsensical - I'm scum because I defended scum (who you haven't proven is scum). That's laughably bad.

[Thor665]

Lynch -1, regardless of "hammer intent" means you claim. That is how it has always been. The fact that you're stalling is even scummier than anything else you've done.

Doing research, as best I can tell you actually believe this.
I do not.
Deal. It's actually not scummy though and it's fairly derptastic to suggest it is.
You know what is scummy? Lynching someone without a case.

Are you willing to tell me you really think that the entire scum group is voting you, and that the members of that group are all contained in the 5 players voting you right now?

I've openly stated that I don't believe that already
I don't even know what you expect? Yes...I agree with myself that not the entire scum team is voting me, and that it is probably two scum like I said, and that I think those two scum are you and Slandaar...huzzah?

Read m0ar.

Also, this awesome wagon of super win you have on me - name which of the players whose case on me you could describe. Just the names of them, I don't even need to hear their cases from you, just tell me their names.

I would offer that challenge to anyone.

[Thor665]

Not Voting (2): Konowa, JacobSavage

You know who needs to get into this game and make these competing L-2 wagons interesting?
I'm sure we could think of someone if we tried hard enough.

[Thor665]

You are making absurdly broad assumptions, childishly insisting that you're right and everyone else is wrong about the damn L-1 claim thing, pitching fits when things don't go your way, putting words in my mouth (I

never

said you were right about the claim thing, I said it's up to interpretation), and

still withholding your entire case on Thor

. I don't care what your credentials are, this is just obscenely bad play, and you should be lynched for it.

In his defense, the 3-4 scum thing is almost assuredly correct (though, really 3, unless town is rather powerful)

You keep using that word, you and Thor. I'm "withholding" my case on him.

I haven't used that word.
I have said your case makes no logical sense at all however - and you've ducked telling me how I'm wrong.
I've said dodge, duck, dive, and dip (and dodge) about you A LOT though - those are my words.

Where is Thor's "case" against me?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4504457
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4505371
First time you asked for it though.

What is your preoccupation for something that no one else has provided either?

Do you agree no one voting me has provided a case then? Sherlock actually has (ratehr sadly) for me and also for his shuft. Idiot...is vague, I'll agree. That makes the wagon on you vastly more explained then the wagon on me though, you disagree? I'll challenge you to a 'explain their vote' contest if you want, I like my chances better than yours.

the bullSmurf numbers game he was going on about and all the bullying he was doing was going to be allowed to fly then I finally snapped. I don't have time to do anything but react right now, and barely any time for that.

Ah, yes, all my bullying, not to be confused with your bullying - bullying isn't a tell, the motivation of the bullying is.
Also, what is my crazy number game? Wagon analysis? Because I will mock you if that's your claim.

The issue is, I have one piece of information that you don't. I know my own alignment, and that allows me to make assumptions that you can't. That assumption shows me that one of me or Thor virtually MUST be scum, I've gone over it again and again in my head, and the likelihood of it not being the case is extraordinarily low.

Are you being cheeky scum? This feels like cheeky scum.

This, right here? It is another dodge.

More like a 'you answer me and maybe I will consider answering your questions'

Perhaps you could say it was a dodge but the point is that doesn't matter because we are talking about you saying I dodged previous to this so you need to show where.

(good dodge btw; sneaky)

Well, seeing as how I answered your question in that very post and also you are still dodging my question...no, I don't think I managed a very good dodge.
Yours is okay, but kind of obvious.

Perhaps if I were paranoid I would just not try to read you and stick with my previous read on the slot?

Oh, snap, my bad - can you explain the reasoning behind your previous read?

Due to [ongoing] my point cannot be emphasied properly however;

Lets look at your 'look at the link in my sig you guiz!'

Now you can read the whole thread Thor, your lack of effort is telling.

Amazing.

Thor scum lack of effort? it cannot be!

I have more to say but I am at work and yeah...

Later.

What town games are you using to showcase how Thortown is not lazy?
Because otherwise your tell is drastically flawed, yeah?
I'm not denying that I'm lazy as scum - I'm denying that I'm not lazy as town. I said that rather clearly already, so...

[Thor665]

Thor is this you?

Spoiler:

Where have I dodged anything? you keep saying I have but then ironically dodge when I ask where.

Now that you're actually addressing my wagon analysis question, it's less of a dodge, but prior to this point it was a dodge.
You didn't ask where prior to this post.

Exhibit A:
All town wagon on town D1

Exhibit B: (from the same game)
Day 2 wagon all scum on town lynch

Why would you use a system which is flawed?

Ah, of course - because the outer edge of a Bell Curve proves that the middle doesn't exist.
Are you actually this dense? An exception does not disprove the rule - especially when I'm not claiming it as an absolute and even in your quotes am saying 'statistically unlikely'.
How are you arguing this with a straight face? Do you really think that any tell which has ever not been true is a bad tell by definition and shouldn't be used?
What tells would that leave us?
I can find me as town being lazy - would that alone totally destroy your case? (if yes, let me know and I'll do it - but if no...why does it apply t my situation at all?)

Thortown is not lazy: DBZ, the trouble of course as you well know is its very hard for me to show that (read: impossible)

So it's impossible to show something that is true...
How do you know it's true then?
Is this like religion, we have to put faith in you or something?

for example not reading a game after you have been in it for days and it could be (very) useful to find the scum (and to the rest of the town) to actually read what happened before replacing etc.

You do realize you literally could not find a game from me in the bast year with me replacing in and reading the game, right?

That's about the only thing that Thor's done questionably so far. Thor, did you actually read the thread, or no? Was that a joke or was it serious? Because if it's serious then that's really, really bad.

I absolutely did not read the rest of the thread other than from the point I replaced in (and, possibly if anyone linked anything from earlier - I also know I skimmed Kinetic's iso, but don't think I did anyone else's)

[Thor665]

Shouldn't your focus be on deciding where your vote should be as far as me or Kinetic?
I mean, there is time for a Kwll counterwagon if you start hustling asap, but you don't appear to be asking for that reason.

[Thor665]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4446077

Was it this one by Delta?
Sable's iso is basically nonexistant and that's the only case on him he appears to respond to.

Next delay point?

[Thor665]

Also, I clearly said I had more to say but didn't have the time ie not a dodge there either.

Now, show me.

Also; please note, I do not have the time to respond to huge walls at present, so some things may be unanswered this will all be rectified later.

1. Yeah, I know, that work has been multiple days long over the weekend and into the next work day. It's rough, I pity you.

2. I did, I literally just said so in my last post to you.

3. Yeah, I know, but I'm sure I can't call that dodging later.

[Thor665]

Okay, work has kept me busier this past weekend than normal. I'll be home around five and begin posting.

What time is "around 5" where you're from?

Because in my world it is now 'Wednesday' when this was posted on 'Tuesday'.

[Thor665]

@Troille - you have expressed vague indifference between a Thor and Kinetic lynch.

Here's a crazy plot - shift your vote. If it doesn't matter much to you, at least vote the wagon that will be bigger by said shift.

[Thor665]

Because I want to get my top scumread and not myself lynched by moving someone's vote where the player has expressed indifference?

Yeah, *only* scum would do that.

[Thor665]

Now that he has what is your reaction?

[Thor665]

Kinetic did claim.
I've indicated when I would claim, and it's not at this point.

[Thor665]

Also, honestly, what is his point you agree with? Why should I claim because he's annoyed I haven't? Clue me in, Kwll?

[Thor665]

@Kinetic - You pretty grossly misrepresented both 726 and 770.

I don't even understand how the other stuff is scummy. (oh n0es, only scum joke about being mod-confirmed town, obv. scum is obv.!) The only way half of it matters is if Toxis is, indeed, scum.
Speaking of, you still don't address how skeevy your case on me is even now that someone else noticed and asked you about it.

[Thor665]

Could you describe in 1-2 sentences what I'm doing that is skeevy and scummy - no examples will be asked for by me, promise.

[Thor665]

I am having trouble on where you said you were going to claim.
I agreed with his point on why should he claim when you didnt.

1. Why?
2. He chose to claim - what does that have to do with me choosing not to? Why do you think I should claim? Is it just because he did, how does that make sense?

[Thor665]

you have been attacking me because I'm your best option for a lynch not because you thought I was scum, but because you thought toxic was town and I was arguing against him

Except that I also thought your attack was scummy and said so - sure.
You even called me out and quoted me saying your attack was bad - you called it a misrep, but that shows you were aware I was attacking what you were doing.

you have mirroed abaddon's play despite not reading him.

I'll take you word that I have - so what if I did? That is as likely to make me scum as it is to make me town.

And maybe its a personal thing, but I think its a scum tell when someone reaplces and doesn't read at least part of the game and makes it their business not to do so at all.

I do believe I've mentioned that I actually don't read on replacing in. I would challenge you to look at every game I replaced into for the last 1.5-2 years. I didn't read back in any of them.
Which, hint, makes this null (and also rather weakens the above Abaddon thing...even if we want to claim it's a scumtell...which I don't)

I have to say, your case looks pretty null centric and silly. The best point I see is the first one, and it's not even that good. Oh n0es, attacking someone who is badly attacking a player, how dastardly scummy!

I don't get it.

[Thor665]

sorry let me be more clear, my first statement. I meant to have it say I am having trouble finding where you said you were going to claim.
I thought It was common agreed thing that when placed at L-1 you have to claim. From what I understood this benefits town greatly. Those who refuse are generally seen as scum.

Are you even reading the game?
There was actually a rather lengthy discussion about this exact topic - why did you miss it?

[Thor665]

Then you come in, and do exactly what I expected scum abaddon/thor to do.

Why not call me on it when I first did it...since that was like my second or third post?

I don't believe that. If two players, who have completely different styles, completely different knowledge (because, guess what, you're coming in the game with knowledge of 3 flips that Abaddon wouldn't have had if he were town at the beginning of the game), and completely different contexts enter the game at different times, and yet have EXACTLY the same play, reads, and move toward the same exact pushes, that indicates they have something in common.

Besides thinking toxic is townish and you are scummish - what are the other identical reads/actions?

Now, you could say "Well, what if they're both town", but that doesn't track, because town with no knowledge wouldn't HAVE that same read. They'd have no knowledge in common with their slot in that case.

No - town would be less likely to have the same reads.
But, considering the basic nature of reads (3 options - null/scum/town) and the limited players here (nine) it is hardly surprising to have some reads be the same.

[Thor665]

Thor

(1) deflects a lot, especially by saying kintetic has no case, has no case has no case.
(2) seems to keeping himself to a higher level of restraint than Kintetic. Kinetic is putting himself out there. He has given us a ton of content since his feud with thor. Is this scum trying desperately to avoid a lynch? No, i dont think so. I think it is someone who GENUINELY believes the things he is saying and is pleading with us to not stupidly lynch him when he is town. Thor, on the other hand, did not try as hard to kill his wagon, instead he kept asking questions so that he could convince us that the wagon on him was not well founded. It is well founded, it is very well founded.
(3) Thor is using a tactic (the one above) i see a lot of scum players use and that is very successful usually. The one where you keep laughing off the case against you. Now i dont know thor meta, and i dont have the time to check it, so maybe this is his town play as well, but I see no town motive from his defense. He is 100% defensive and accusational. He keeps saying kinetic is dodging and is making meaningless claims. He is waiting for other people to fill in the spaces in his argument. do not let him get away with this.

1) Kinetic, during the same period, kept saying 'I'll do the case when I have time, I'll do the case when I have time'...so...?

2) This almost feels silly to have to respond to. "Thor didn't react to avoid his lynch...instead he reacted in this way that stopped the wagon on him and avoided his lynch." I mean, whut?

3) Yes, I am 100% defensive and accusatory - meaning either I'm defending myself or accusing people and...wait...whut? Also, even Kinetic has pointed out that I made an attack on Kinetic in like my 2nd or 3rd post. I don't need blanks filled, I called him scummy for actions and then later voted him for those reasons.

So...?

[Thor665]

Trollie, my problem with Kinetic is that his initial read on Thor scum was dependent on toxic scum. Then when he was finally caught up he votes Thor in post 772. I believe this is the crux of everything.

Yet I still voted Thor AFTER he voted me. Thor threw the gauntlet down, I picked it up. I was waiting on Thor to determine if I should pursue Toxic, or if maybe my read on Thor was correct as well. He made me believe he was the right lynch.

Yeah, but functionally I had already proved I was doing the scummy action by then.
But it took my vote on you to move you - that doesn't seem backwards to you?

[Thor665]

...i hope thats not all you have to say...

Nah, it took me a while to formulate how to mock you properly without sounding too rude

[Thor665]

Why not just search for them yourself - I was pretty dismissive of your case for a reason. If you're town and believe what you're saying you believe then I don't know what evidence will do for you regardless.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... &sr=topics

[Thor665]

Even assuming, though, that you're right, that is still a town mindset, in some way, because as you said, I'd have to start at Toxicscum before I moved to Thor. If I were scum, why wouldn't I just build the case on Thor if my intent was always to vote Thor from the beginning?

I did. I voted you. That's part of the reason I was waiting for your return, to see how you acted when you returned. It wasn't just "Oh, hey, he's back now, lets kill him", I had a pretty strong read, you initial actions confirmed it in my mind.

I first indicated my thoughts on the 27th - no comment from you.
I repeated them on the 28th - no comment from you.
I voted you on the 29th - you immediately counter voted and cited my suspicion of you and defense of toxic as the reason.

I don't have time to look back and find the rest of them, I made mental notes, you're going to have to just take my word for now. If deadline is extended to beyond Saturday I'll find them, unless somoene else has time to dig.

Considering this is the center of your read on me - I'll admit you inability to recall even one comes across very fake.
I'll admit I promised not to ask you for examples, but...meh.

Argument to probability isn't a defense. Its avoidance. In fact, I really like Trollie's argument, you keep avoiding and using these types of arguments to do so. Perhaps I was a bit to passionate to notice before though.

Yep, when probability and reality get in the way - better ignore that gak.

So, you defend by saying "Well Kinetic did that"

No - I'm not.
Y'see, he was saying it was scummy I kept asking for the case.
I pointed out that you kept saying you'd provide the case.
That means there *wasn't* a case, and therefore me asking for it is not deflection at all, but rather a perfectly normal thing to be asking for.

even Kinetic has pointed out that I made an attack on Kinetic in like my 2nd or 3rd post.

Except... I didn't attack you first. You attacked me first.

I agree - that's what I was telling Troille.
Thanks for the backup!

You were "100% defensive" when your initial play was an offensive attack, calling me out for attacking, when I was in fact defending a post that was not even an attack on toxic.

I agree with this too - I was saying I wasn't 100% defensive, again, Troille said that about me (though also accusatory...but at that point isn't that 'you're attacking and defending in some mix' which seems normal.

Right. You're "100% on the defensive here".

No, I totally am not, thanks again for the backup!

[Thor665]

@Troille - I hope you're reading 999 - Kinetic basically just agreed with me about how bad your case was.

Well...on the specifics, he agreed that it was good you were attacking me, but he then also agreed that everything I'd pointed out when dismissing your case was legit.
So...huzzah for me!

[Thor665]

Then it must be very hard for you to have notes about all the reads I shared with Abaddon I suppose.

[Thor665]

I have a feeling pulling out specific examples will be difficult because the only thing you've really done is attacked me and been defensive. If I'm scum, who are my scum buddies? Who else is scummy in your mind? If I'm town, and you really are town, who are the scum?

I dunno.

3. I don't do lists of reads. But here's what I've currently got; I think you, Idiotking, and Toxic are probably town. I think Slandaar is lurking, and that makes me think he's scummy, but I'm currently modest on that read because I want to give him time to keep doing whatever it is he might be doing. I think Kinetic is scum (hint: hence the vote). I actually have basically no read on anyone else because the bulk of the game is lurking and being too scared to advance any actual legit opinions.

I might have provided some opinions on players in here. if you squint and rummage around maybe you can find some.
Let me know - I actually can't.

[Thor665]

Secondly most of what he has been doing is attacking and trying to redirect the lynch onto others, which I find scummy.

What would be the town response?

[Thor665]

If you are unwilling to claim that vote is going back on

Then vote me again. What part of 'I claim at hammer intent' do you not grok?

What are you going to get with a claim anyway?
I'll either claim VT, which shouldn't change your opinion, or I'll claim a PR. Really, if you think I'm good enough to lynch, at this stage of the game me claiming a PR shouldn't matter to you either.
If either of those claims would reverse your opinion then...I don't even get the point of wanting to lynch me if I don't claim. You don't have a good reason to lynch.

The town response would be to try and defend himself from the accusations and/or explain the intentions behind what is percieved to be scummy.

You're saying I haven't done this?
I've responded to all the accusations on me - and indeed have even noted that there aren't many to respond to.
People have even called me pointing that out to be scummy...though I think their kinda derp to say that. What are your thoughts?

one of Thor/Kinetic is scum, to me Thor seams more likely, Trollie shoo the other one if he flips town

What if we lynch me and shoot you if I'm town?
Still excited?

Who are your other town reads besides Thor? Who are your other scum reads besides me?

Read the game, it's all there.

What are your other scum reads?
Should be easy enough to say.

[Thor665]

What part of me saying I won't do you think is me just gakking with you?
NO I WILL NOT.
Make sense?

[Thor665]

but at least try to put a

little

effort into it.

yes, which is why i put my vote back on u...

Then why ask about it?

[Thor665]

Some don't get it. Claiming at L-1 is NOT a given anymore. Claiming at intent to hammer is.

I get that. I was explicitly asking if hed go against that convention and claim sooner

[Thor665]

Why is my claim so important to you right now?

[Thor665]

Why am I worth lynching?
Your current stance seems to be 'has offered reads' which is kinda dumb.

[Thor665]

Also, you never responded to my response to your case on me...and then the laughably awesome Kinetic role in where he basically agreed with me about how you were wrong on multiple of those calls.
Thoughts?

[Thor665]

1. Oh dear gawd...NO IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT. I was asking for something and he was promising to get it - that makes it ruddy the hell normal that I was asking for it and NOT defense, like you said it was. Derp-da-derp-derp.

2. Are you denying that I addressed every point raised against me? I did laugh at a lot of it...which points do you think are awesome that I laughed about that I should have addressed? I'll address them right now.

3. Cool, we've only linked it in the last dozen or so posts here - take your time.

Ur responses show that you're a tunneling fool. My responses are blatant and strong answers to your accusations. 1-2 even tie together showing that I was attempting to get the info of why I was scummy and respond to it, and you are acting like the info hunt was scummy, and then snarling that I didn't reply to the case on me in a good way - I COULDN'T BECAUSE THERE WASN'T A CASE TO REPLY TO, AND THAT MAKES IT NOT SCUMMY THAT I WANTED TO SEE A CASE - WHAT DON'T YOU GET THERE?

Seriously now - tell me what I should have responded to that I just laughed off - I want the specific points I dodged via vapid attacks and laughter. TELL ME WHAT I DODGED, I DARE YOU!

[Thor665]

Above is @Troille last page.

Jacob is terrible.

[Thor665]

1. There was no weekend during these posts in question

2. Quote it because I am blind or you are lying.

1. Aren't we kind of still waiting...?

2.

Now that you're actually addressing my wagon analysis question, it's less of a dodge, but prior to this point it was a dodge.
You didn't ask where prior to this post.

[Thor665]

I don't even understand what you're accusing me of there.

You did dodge addressing me in any relevant way when I replaced in...so...?

[Thor665]

Thor/Kinetic?

[Thor665]

Wooosh.

[Thor665]

Or you could hammer Kinetic and then Vig from a pool of Slandaar/Jacob and toss in Thor as an option if Kinetic flips town. That could be a plan.

Jacob - the guy you don't like due to his rolefishing and votes. He's voting the same person you are (and both of you are asking me to claim)
You are your only town read on the Kinetic wagon.
Your other town reads (Idiot and Sherlock) are not just off the Thor wagon, but have actively expressed it's a bad wagon with poor logic behind it.

How are you conflicted about this?

[Thor665]

You are your only town read *off* the Kinetic wagon.

[Thor665]

^yeah but that is not actually a reason to think I am wrong....since it does not mean that there are not town on your wagon.

I think idiot and sherlock are town, but that doesnt make them right all the time

There are obviously town on my wagon - derp.

@Sherlock - don't start playing bad.

[Thor665]

Thor, on the other hand, talks in a way that assumes his innocence

Yeah, blatant scummy play there - how weird of me.

[Thor665]

I'm bringing this up again, because you're all derping hard - WHAT IS THE REASON I AM SCUM?

You ought to be able to answer that in 1-2 sentences really easy.
If you can't then it proves the entire wagon on me is filled with lackwits and scum.

[Thor665]

because

(1) Abaddon was the scummiest player in the game, you have not been so abhorrently town that I can magically decide to ignore Abaddon's play

(2) because i dont trust u, ur strat against ur lynch was scummy, ive already explained why

Sherlock gave what was pretty damn well close to intent to hammer....r u waiting for him to stat this intent explicitly before u claim?

1. How was he scummy? I still haven't heard that case either.

2. ...wow. No, it wasn't. I addressed everything and advanced my scum reads - that's called 'normal town play' you dolt.

@Sherlock - and you are sucking too.

Claim:

Bodyguard.

Night 1 target (via random selection: Kinetic

Your move - derp town.

[Thor665]

If you're calling it BullSmurf then, as usual, you're doing the dumb thing. You don't unvote a PR claim you're calling BullSmurf. You lynch it.
Oh gawds, you people.

Yes, i didn't come into the game till Day 2 - read the ruddy rule set.

Night actions not received by the night deadline will be randomized. If you want to not use your action (and it isn't compulsive), send me a message explicitly stating you don't use your ability. It will be randomized otherwise.

[Thor665]

Hint: That means Abbadon didn't submit gak.

[Thor665]

I don't see what him catching up overnight and him having the brains gawd gave grasshoppers and submitting a night action have to do with each other. I don't think we need to argue that his flake out proves he was not exactly playing the game as well as he should have.

You would have to ask the mod why I was specifically informed - that's his business, not mine.

[Thor665]

I don't trust this lurksack game to manage a quicklynch. I'd help with it, but doubt our ability to move votes and manage a claim and then manage an intelligent lynch in the time remaining.

[Thor665]

Decent chance.
Of course Neighbors suck and are not alignment confirmed and it's even fairly common to have one be scum.
Meanwhile I'm the only protective role - which is...kinda common.
And am also a weak protective role.
And weaken the Vig if the Vig is town.
If there are no other town roles I would be pretty comfortable calling them all town, myself, as it's not actually that potent.

But don't strain your head too much - better keep leaving your vote on Thor while not actually doing anything but soft selling a lynch.

[Thor665]

Already thought Thor was town. His stubbornness to claim while being a protective role makes sense.

I would have done that anyway.
Claiming at L-1 with no hammer intent is silly - until the derp players here (Sherlock) decided it was "unfair" that Kinetic had claimed and I hadn't (as though that means anything... ) I was walking away with not needing to claim, which was monstrously pro-town regardless of my alignment. Because you don't claim until the wagon *is* going to lynch you - until then you're just a theoretical lynch.

[Thor665]

is it customary for replacements to get nightaction info of their replacees?

Would make most of them pretty useless if they didn't.
Yes, it is not only common - it is absolutely done. I've never seen it not done.

thor u gonna protect me tonight if u arent lynched?

I'll honestly admit that I'm not sure. I kind of feel like I'm about the only sane player in this game and that the town would benefit more from Thor alive than Thor preventing a scum nightkill by getting himself dead.

It seams silly to even think about lynching a protective role claim at this stage. I believe a quick wagon is the way to go..

What's your read on Kinetic?

Hey Thor, now's probably not a good time to piss me off.

I'm sorry that the truth hurts.

I'll hammer Slandaar if he gets to L-1.

@Slandaar - you should claim in your next available post regardless of where you are in the vote count. My PR claim is protecting me and apparently people are horrified at the idea of lynching Kinetic for reasons that I do not grasp as he has openly claimed to be scum and desperately needs rope.

@Slandaar voters - you better be ready to do this without a claim considering Slandaar's activity levels - otherwise you're just making pretty moves that will mean nothing.

[Thor665]

Why do you see Kinetic as town?

[Thor665]

I hate you Nhammen.

[Thor665]

so pick between protecting me and yourself i guess. I wont shoot you.

Lack of understanding how a bodyguard works is yet further evidence that the best service for town is to start sheeping Thor a lot more.

Its a more of a general feeling than anything else. Theres a couple of things I think, but really i dont have that much time right this second.

[Thor665]

@Sherlock - 1 shot BP makes decent sense in the setup as it look at the moment. Why do you not buy it?

I'll accept Slandaar is Betelgeuseing like a boss right there, but I see no reason other than that to immediately not buy the claim. What am I missing?

[Thor665]

Tentative deadline ends in six hours.

Just saying.

[Thor665]

Do we have Masons or Neighbors - my understanding was Neighbors which is drastically different.

Neighbors+limited BP+Bodyguard+Vig is hardly a overpowered town even if all the scum team have is one roleblocker and maybe a neighbor.

But tell me more about why this is overpowered.

[Thor665]

@Slandaar - why claim 1 shot? Why not just claim BP?

[Thor665]

masons/neighbors are the same thing in my book. -.-;

You don't see those as rather different when discussing the 'balance' of a game to the point you want to lynch a PR?

[Thor665]

I had pretty solid reads...except for totally flipping Kinetic and Toxic around. Derp on me!

[Thor665]

Because Troille for some reason thought I looked like scum, obviously.

[Thor665]

We'll choose to ignore that no other defensive role had flipped or claimed or been evident...

[Thor665]

Thor, how did you think I did from an unbiased PoV (i.e. while you didn't know I was Sherlock)?

Well, let's see what I said about you;

If you are town you need to go back and play in some Newbies. You think you have a 50/50 for scum and you're going to lynch me instead because I'm hard to read?

I do think you did better than Troille though - if that makes you feel better.
I also did think you were fairly obv. town - but there is a reason I was poking fun at some of your conclusions and statements throughout.
I rather feel I would have treated you the same if you'd been playing under your regular account, but you can draw your own conclusions on that if you think I treat you in some jaded way normally.

[Thor665]

Your read on me sucks balls, is lazy play, and makes you look derp however. As does the wagon around it. Why aren't you doing good reads like this for my slot?

[Thor665]

That should actually make you concerned that you lost that much town energy. You don't want to be the player they think is a possible mislynch.

[Thor665]

oh, and thor, sorry...i thought u were clearly gonna be lynched the next day, and i couldnt decide on a kill target so to move things along i shot u

Eh - I had worked to set it up so I could suck up scum's shot in any case, being shot twice when I expected to be shot once is no real nevermind to me. I did the best a suspected Bodyguard could hope for and called out most of the scum team with only a bit of tomfoolery on my part.

Yeah, to be perfectly honest we shouldn't have won this one. Like Toxic said in the scum QT, we only won because we stopped scumhunting and focused purely on process of elimination via "confirmed" townies.

Isn't that called 'scumhunting' though?
I PoE as a matter of course.