Mini 1439 -- Game Over

[Fegelein]

Confirming Role PM

[Fegelein]

VOTE: Alexcellent

This vote will be an Alexcellent way to gather information.

[Fegelein]

VOTE: YOLO
We shall put this theory to the test.

[Fegelein]

You Only Live Once.

[Fegelein]

It seems as if our game has stagnated already, so let's change that.

RVS is getting us nowhere at this moment in time, so I'm going to provide a question for us all to answer.

What do you think of chillkid's #32?

Personally, I think it's a town tell, as he does raise a good point. Just look at some of the past newbie games, there has been amazing newbie scum, and we shouldn't avoid scrutinizing someone because they are new.

I'm not out of RVS at this stage, because as far as I can see, there are no scum tells in my eyes. qwints's RVS play is a little suspicious, but I'm probably looking too deep into it. I'd quite like it if people answer my question though.

Sorry if you think that I'm taking the start of the game so seriously, I'm just seeing that people aren't getting the ball rolling here, so I've decided to do it myself.

[Fegelein]

Aww, I was all set to sheep you all game because of the awesome avatar, but you had to do something like that.

Let's review:

chillkid: RVS vote for no avatar
MrBump: calling chillkid out for being new
chillkid: "join dates do not matter.

Scum

shouldn't be underestimated."

Now, they're clearly talking about chillkid's join dates, and chillkids response is to talk about

scum

when the implication is that

he

shouldn't be underestimated. In other words, he is scum.

First of all, thanks for the compliment on my avatar

But as for the rest of your post:
At best, that's trying to grasp at straws, which might be helpful in the long run, especially if chillkid begins to appear scummy.
At worst, that's scum trying to use it as an excuse to create a bandwagon. Kind of correlates since you're in the butter zone.

I've played a game on another forum with a player similar to you, who got someone lynched for referring to the Town in third person. Both players flipped Town, but it was nowhere near as early as it is here.

I was actually going to vote you, when I saw this.

tbh I think #32 and #36 are scummy

How is that helpful if you don't explain?
UNVOTE: YOLO
VOTE: Bacde

[Fegelein]

It was more for the point on #32, didn't realise #36 was my post.

It might well get reactions, but it gives you negative coverage in the long run.

[Fegelein]

It was more for the point on #32, didn't realise #36 was my post.

It might well get reactions, but it gives you negative coverage in the long run.

how much do you edit your posts when you write?

What is that supposed to achieve?
To answer your question, whenever a new post is made, I edit my post accordingly.

[Fegelein]

It was more for the point on #32, didn't realise #36 was my post.

It might well get reactions, but it gives you negative coverage in the long run.

how much do you edit your posts when you write?

What is that supposed to achieve?
To answer your question, whenever a new post is made, I edit my post accordingly.

I wanted to know because scum posts take longer to write than town posts

and you took 5 minutes to respond to a post where your response should have been quick and natural (you said that you didn't notice #36)

that is as much as I want to let you window into my thought processes right now

I do do other stuff other than go on this forum. Also, even if I'm Town, I always try to formulate my responses correctly so that people don't start to believe that I am scum. The length it takes for people to make posts is kind of a null tell imo.

ITT people call each other out and say nothing about WHY they think people are scummy. qwints, Fegelein, Bacde, do elaborate

In fact, I'm calling people out for doing the same thing, yet you think I'm doing it? Take a bit more care when you are reading the thread.

Also, the butter zone = http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... sane_Tells
You'll find it here.

[Fegelein]

tbh I think #32 and #36 are scummy

I agree with this. #36 is the bigger scuminess by forcing comments that would probably have happened maturely. This was already happening in some cases already.

VOTE: fegelein

Actually no, my intention here was to try and get some activity going in the thread, as RVS really wasn't getting us anywhere.

Also, even though Bacde has yet to provide reasoning for his vote yet, I really want to put your thoughts on #36 under some scrutiny here. How is trying to get people to contribute to the thread scummy, other than to mask yourself, which isn't stated in your post. As for your other point, yes it was, and I think my post helped develop those thoughts, as I was asking for people's thoughts on it.

I get the impression that Fegelein is just impatient, but I'll vote him just to keep things going.

Vote: Fegelein

If he gets to l-1, I will retract my vote.

I'm not impatient, I just want to get the game rolling here, I don't want it to stagnate.

Also, if I get to L-1, you will remove your vote? What? If you're trying to pressure me here, you're really not doing it right.

I'm waiting for Bacde to answer as to why he thought #32 and #36 were scummy. That's why my vote is staying on him for the time being.

[Fegelein]

Actually no, my intention here was to try and get some activity going in the thread, as RVS really wasn't getting us anywhere.

Also, even though Bacde has yet to provide reasoning for his vote yet, I really want to put your thoughts on #36 under some scrutiny here. How is trying to get people to contribute to the thread scummy, other than to mask yourself, which isn't stated in your post. As for your other point, yes it was, and I think my post helped develop those thoughts, as I was asking for people's thoughts on it.

You asked a question on a post that was already very likely to draw attention to itself. Therefore forcing it to be made less interesting and basically halted any new people questioning the actual post.

If anything, I'm trying to invoke people's thoughts on the post, which makes it more interesting. Also, there's new people questioning the post now.

And the people already taking about it were already talking it about it. Like before your post. How does sf chapter before your post be influenced by something yet to come?

SF chapter? Also, I'm trying to draw out opinions on the post itself, not just responses.

[Fegelein]

That's how I normally respond to points.

[Fegelein]

On phone, can't really speak much. I'll be able to contribute more when I come home.

Stop avoiding my question Bacde. I want a response/reason why you thought #32 and #36 are scummy.

[Fegelein]

ATM, I'm putting down YOLO, MrBump, Ztife, chillkid and RedDragon as possible town. Ztife and RedDragon both seem to be actively scumhunting, MrBump is trying to get people to voice their thoughts more, chillkid is making a good case against Radiant here and YOLO is asking good questions.
Null reads on qwints and the non-posters.
Getting some scummy vibes from Cheery Dog. His vote on me just baffles me, and even after him explaining it, I fail to see why I was the best lynch to him at that point.
Radiant seems to be filled with inconsistencies, but putting him at L-2 is enough for the time being.

I really want an answer from Bacde though at this moment in time.

[Fegelein]

If anything, I'm trying to invoke people's thoughts on the post, which makes it more interesting. Also, there's new people questioning the post now.

We've had someone call it null read, and 2 people call it scummy.
and then it's stemmed of this conversation we're having now.
I quite probably ould have actually explainmed why I felt it scummy had your post about it and asking opinions not been there at the same time. Now it lacks the hit it might have been to develop eads on chillkid, but I guess you're allowed to attempt reads of everyone at once.

Aye, it's stemmed out into a interesting conversation about Radiant, where we will determine our opinions on him. As for your other point, I think you're trying to say that I'm making the event harder to get a read on at this point. My intention was to create discussion on that factor, as I want to hear from other people on the matter. Also, I still fail to see how trying to get discussion going and inadvertently cutting the discussion short constitutes a vote.

SF chapter? Also, I'm trying to draw out opinions on the post itself, not just responses.

phone posts errors. (had you not responded in stupid bolding things way, I'd fix it in the quote, but that just makes things harder to response to responses (hence my delay in even getting around to this)) For now you just get "stuff posted" (I think I changed my mind about which order I was posting the stuff in and never noticed the phone somehow do that Since I missed it then, I don't really have other ideas for where my phone might have got chapter from)

Stuff Posted? So activity makes me scummy you mean?

Those are generally the same thing.
I still feel like you attempted a forceful removal out of RVS, while it was going to be happening at the same time anyway.

The thread was stagnating, and I stated that I had not left RVS at that point, I was raising a question.

I would have responded myself had it not been during my nightime.

Also, I'm sorry if you don't like my bolded style of responses, it's just I find it easier to communicate with certain points that way. Use italics or underlined words if you want to respond to my bolded conversation.

[Fegelein]

I tend to not respond when I'm on my phone, unless I'm making a quick point. You don't have to respond while on your phone you know.

In fact, it seems that you're overkeen to defend yourself at this stage. Just a little bit of psychology.

[Fegelein]

Don't just accept your fate, especially if you're Town. You're going to cause us a mislynch if you are.

Whether you are scum or not, fight your case. Otherwise, it just kills the point of the game.

[Fegelein]

So as far as I can gather, SAS is voting me for being experienced.


Cheery Dog's last post raises a valid point in my opinion though, which I do agree with, despite the fact that we don't see eye to eye here.

Still waiting for Bacde to respond to my questions.

[Fegelein]

Just 1 (SAS)

As for the whole defeatist attitude, it's kind of a null tell as in it could go either way. It might be an attempt for scum to garner unvotes/sympathy, but it might be geniune feelings.

I'm going to reread the thread, and I'm considering posting reads at this stage.

[Fegelein]

It's interesting to note that qwints is chainsawing MrBump here, after he accused someone else of doing it earlier.

Also, anti town or scummy, either way, his opinion states that it's not healthy for the Town, and in his opinion, it justifies a vote.

Look at the game from other people's perspectives, not just your own.

[Fegelein]

So as far as I can gather, SAS is voting me for being experienced.


Cheery Dog's last post raises a valid point in my opinion though, which I do agree with, despite the fact that we don't see eye to eye here.

Still waiting for Bacde to respond to my questions.

What questions?

Why #32 and #36 are scummy. It's old, but you've still successfully avoided my queries for about 100 posts.

[Fegelein]

To get reactions is not answering why you think it's scummy.

[Fegelein]

Don't really know what Norfolk has done wrong.

Also, Alexcellent was on earlier, never even looked at LI forum from what I could see.

[Fegelein]

You bring up a good point imo, although I want to hear from Norfolk first.

[Fegelein]

You never discussed me btw.

[Fegelein]

Well, bring something to the table then if you want to get activity.

[Fegelein]

I have 2 main reasons why I feel Bacde is one of our better lynches:
1: Says that #32 and #36 are scummy, never expands on it, despite me asking. Looks like he's avoiding my question.

2: Red Dragon gave good reasoning, he's basically not helping the Town scumhunt also.

I'm also getting bad feelings about SAS (bandwagoned me, with no explanation, and a lack of contributions anyway), Norfolk (his only post was a simple vote, with no explanation), Cheery Dog (his reasoning into voting me is really odd, but on the other hand, his recent posts are better) and Radiant (don't let him get off the hook so early for the things he's done)

Null reads on qwints, YOLO, Alex and chillkid.

Town on Ztife, Red Dragon and MrBump.

[Fegelein]

well, for one it gets reactions

such as you being overly defensive to my barely typed out post

This is the closest thing to an answer you have provided.

[Fegelein]

So, it was gut feeling?

[Fegelein]

I ( Venmar ) voted for Fegelein because he looked like Nervous Scum, and he is overdefensive and overreacting to pressure. His #36 was bad because I felt like he defeated the half of his post with one sentence near the end, contradicting himself, and then I also get this feeling from his slot that he's trying to appeal to others so as not to get on anybody's bad side.

I wouldn't consider myself overreacting to pressure, I'm just failing to understand why I justify votes, and the fact is, the votes against me are weak atm (your reasoning is an interesting analogy though).

It seems as if our game has stagnated already, so let's change that.

RVS is getting us nowhere at this moment in time, so I'm going to provide a question for us all to answer.

What do you think of chillkid's #32?

Personally, I think it's a town tell, as he does raise a good point. Just look at some of the past newbie games, there has been amazing newbie scum, and we shouldn't avoid scrutinizing someone because they are new.

I'm not out of RVS at this stage, because as far as I can see, there are no scum tells in my eyes. qwints's RVS play is a little suspicious, but I'm probably looking too deep into it. I'd quite like it if people answer my question though.

Sorry if you think that I'm taking the start of the game so seriously,

I'm just seeing that people aren't getting the ball rolling here, so I've decided to do it myself.

First, the bolded is an example of being nervous ahead of time, and trying to sound as if he isn't trying to get on anybody's bad side.

This point was more to say "I actually prefer everybody to have fun, winning is still of high priority though.

What else bothered me was that he starts saying that RVS is getting us nowhere and that the game stagnated ( which is indirectly associated with RVS ), but then after complaining about the RVS he ends off the post by saying that he himself is still in RVS... as if he doesn't want to leave it or something. That whole sentence seemed to defeat his purpose of trying to get out the RVS. The whole post is just all over the place in general really.

Let me explain why I said that. I stated that I remained in RVS because I felt that nobody constituted a real vote at that stage in time. I wasn't trying to end RVS with my post, I was instead proposing a question for people to answer also.

That's kind of the JIST of my vote for Fegelein.

~ V

@Bacde: Are you serious? You just completely parroted what he said.

[Fegelein]

Forgot to state this, but I feel SAS actually has decent reasoning, looking at it from his point of view. He's moved into the Null/Town catergory.

[Fegelein]

The fact of the matter is that I have been chasing you for your proper thoughts for most of the game, and you have not given me a very clear answer. Now that SAS has posted a clearer answer, you say "Yeah, that's what I meant by scummy"

Also, how is it scummy if SAS is accusing me and I don't think it's scummy? Think from his point of view. His reasoning is original and it makes sense to him, even though I disagree with it.

Just because you said it was scummy first doesn't mean you're not parroting SAS's post here.

[Fegelein]

The fact of the matter is that I have been chasing you for your proper thoughts for most of the game, and you have not given me a very clear answer. Now that SAS has posted a clearer answer, you say "Yeah, that's what I meant by scummy"

Also, how is it scummy if SAS is accusing me and I don't think it's scummy? Think from his point of view. His reasoning is original and it makes sense to him, even though I disagree with it.

Just because you said it was scummy first doesn't mean you're not parroting SAS's post here.

JUST BECAUSE

I said it was scummy first doesn't mean that I'm not parroting SAS's post here,

so you're gonna have to take my word for it--I'm not. I was just agreeing with it. He was able to say with words the things about that post that I didn't like that I was unable to express. Since you didn't like my explanation I thought I would agree with someone else's that would make more sense to you.

I mean, I feel as though I gave you a pretty clear answer twice, and you've been hounding me for something that in your opinion should be false reasoning anyway, so I don't understand why you've been so adamant about pursuing me to keep repeating my answer to you

Also, its super scummy to see someone and think "Yeah, their logic and reasoning is wrong, that really establishes them as town or leaning-town"

But SAS thinking you are scum should be something that you should know is false, yet you townread him for it? Seems fishy

How were you unable to express them? I would have loved to hear your thoughts on why you thought the posts were scummy, yet you never did until SAS posted his reasoning, then you just stole his reasoning.

No, you didn't give me a clear answer twice, your posts just said "I did it for reactions" and "It's my gut feeling". I've been pursuing you for so long to answer this question because I want an answer, and it is extremely suspicious that you kept avoiding it, and even more suspicious still when you finally gave your reasoning after SAS posted his (and it was a blatant parrot)

Also, the reason I see SAS as Null/Town is the fact that I put myself in his shoes. Sure, I know I'm Town, and that's why I disagree with him, and I'm clarifying why I behaved as such. But SAS doesn't know I am Town, and therefore, his case seems a little more legit. True, he could be scum, but the reasoning seems more town-contrived to me, as opposed to a scummy, opportunistic vote.

[Fegelein]

^^That's sort of a misrep

I gave you clear answers about how I felt about #32 and #36--I just felt like they were scummy

You asked me how posting my opinion without explanation was possibly protown, to which I responded that it can get reactions

So you saying that I expressed my opinion just "to get reactions" is a misrep and probably a big part of why you are misperceiving me--I wasn't posting to "get reactions", I was just posting. And just posting is good because it CAN get reactions

And I haven't avoided your question at all, I've been reiterating my point that it was mostly gut and I just felt like they were scum posts

Why can't you accept that as an answer?

What counts as an acceptable answer to you? Because a LOT of my reasonings in ALL of my games has to do with gut and intuition

When I tried to further explain my reasoning by agreeing with someone else who I felt captured my feelings well, you now say that its scummy for me to attempt to answer your question?

Its weird to me that I've been answering your question all thread, yet you still harp on me about answering it, and when I find someone else's post that expresses my feelings you find that even scummier? I don't understand why you keep asking me questions when you are clearly not going to pay attention to the answers

State how it was a misrep.

You didn't give me clear answers on why you thought they were scummy until you echoed SAS's thoughts. Gut Feeling and getting reactions /=/ answering why you thought the post was scummy properly.

#44 says otherwise. You seemed to be stating that you said it to get reactions in that post, now you're saying that was an unintended effect?

Mostly gut then? So why did you suddenly agree with SAS's reasoning. It's like saying "Oh, I thought that too, but I didn't put it down". It doesn't make any sense. You've not really been stating a clear answer why you think it's scummy, while SAS has done otherwise.

I can't accept that because the reasoning is poor, and anybody can say "Gut feeling this post is Town/Scum". It seems like a get out of jail free card.

An acceptable answer would be something along the lines SAS posted. Pointing out what you found scummy about them. Not just saying "It was gut"

No, it seems like you are completely copying someone else's thoughts, because you only have a "gut feeling" case against me, and when someone actually has a reasonable case against me (although I do disagree with it), you say "Yeah, I was thinking this all along". Had you answered me with this before, maybe we wouldn't be here. It seems very scummy that you would take someone's reasoning and say "I was thinking that all along", especially since your only other case against me is "gut feeling"

No, the problem is, had you answered with that in the first place, before SAS's post, I wouldn't have found it scummy. It just seems that you're trying to use someone else's case against me, when you didn't point it out yourself initially. Also, as I've said, your reasoning was very poor, and now you're taking someone else's better reasoning, and using it as your own.

[Fegelein]

look if you really think its my scum master plan to get away with saying "gut" for all of my reasonings and somehow convincing all of the town to vote alongside with me despite my lack of a good argument (?) then go ahead and vote me

Stop trying to use "I wouldn't do this as scum" as an excuse for your play, that makes it even worse for you now.

because you are getting really riled up about gut reads that I had on p2

My beef with this is that you completely copied SAS's reasoning as if to say "I was thinking that all along".

and you are getting really riled up about me being honest and not just trying to make up shit answers and telling you straight up it was gut

How am I supposed to know you are telling the truth?

and you are getting really riled up about me agreeing with another poster's reasoning against you

Because you said "I was thinking this all along" Why didn't you state it in the thread before SAS did?

Also, what happened to "No, I don't think Fegelein is scum"? Explain please.

@Qwints: mfw you voted me:

[Fegelein]

look if you really think its my scum master plan to get away with saying "gut" for all of my reasonings and somehow convincing all of the town to vote alongside with me despite my lack of a good argument (?) then go ahead and vote me

Stop trying to use "I wouldn't do this as scum" as an excuse for your play, that makes it even worse for you now.

because you are getting really riled up about gut reads that I had on p2

My beef with this is that you completely copied SAS's reasoning as if to say "I was thinking that all along".

and you are getting really riled up about me being honest and not just trying to make up shit answers and telling you straight up it was gut

How am I supposed to know you are telling the truth?

and you are getting really riled up about me agreeing with another poster's reasoning against you

Because you said "I was thinking this all along" Why didn't you state it in the thread before SAS did?

Also, what happened to "No, I don't think Fegelein is scum"? Explain please.

@Qwints: mfw you voted me:

Look, the thing is that you are searching for something that isn't there

This comes across as "Stop pressuring me "

you are looking to make me trip up on myself or something but I'm not scum, and your search is going to be fruitless

Wow, how is that meant to quell my queries?

its not my job to always post to whatever your "requirements" are for a townie player to be

Your input would have been valued however, and the fact that you were avoiding giving me an answer makes me think you're not willing to contribute here.

I'm town, I don't have to prove that to you

Anyone can say that.

I've already said multiple times that I posted what I did because they were my thoughts--and I didn't post what SAS had posted (despite me agreeing with the reasonings) because I hadn't collected my thoughts about the post in as easily-communicable manner as SAS had posted.

To be frank, I'm going to call this bullshit. How could you not make it communicable? You could have at least TRIED to make it communicable. It would have certainly made you less scummy.

To be honest--I didn't give a shit. It was a page 2 read. I didn't care enough to try to formulate communicable reasons.

Which is something Red Dragon brought up; you're not contributing to the Town.

If you really think I'm trying to pawn off SAS's thoughts as my own then you are retarded.

First of all, you seem disgruntled. Second of all, you're using the "I wouldn't do that as scum" argument again, which is needless and scummy in itself.

Yeah his thoughts are similar to the ones I had, and I thought you would accept that as an answer if you were searching for my reasoning, which now I don't think you are.

What's to stop you parroting?

The issue here is that you for some reason or whatever can't accept that as an answer--yet you keep harping on me like I'm going to give you a different answer all of a sudden? I'm not. That is the answer.

I'm not harping you for a different answer, I'm stating why you are scummy atm.

The fact that you keep searching more and more like you think there is something more I am going to say is scummy--you are pushing for something that isn't there

I interpret that as "You won't find anything scummy from me!". I've found enough stuff to come to the conclusion you are likely scum.

and it fits in with you townreading someone for voting you, which is scummy

How? How does me pressuring you fit with giving someone a town read for actually having a clear opinion (in their shoes) That makes no sense.

which fits in with you being hypersensitive and hyperaware of how other players are reading your slot, which is scummy

No. I think SAS is Town because he gave clear reasons, and his reasoning seems much more town-contrived, as opposed to being an opportunistic vote. Initially, it came off as opportunistic, but now that he's explained it, it's not.

so yeah, back then I didn't think you were scum, but your repeated behavior and insistence that I answer questions that I already have reveals to me an attitude that I don't believe is town-aligned

You didn't answer the question to a good standard, I was repeating behaviour because it seemed like you were trying to avoid me. What's anti-town about that?

[Fegelein]

^^The only thing I got out of that post is "I'm going to argue against everything you say and not attempt to see if there is a possible town mindset coming out of this poster"

Let's be honest, what have you done that is pro-town? Make me a list, because you've done nothing pro-town in my eyes.

Which basically tells me that you aren't scumhunting, which makes me think even MORE that you are scum

I have scumhunted, you've come across as scum to me.

Here's the thing: I told you that I've answered your questions

And I've told you they were answered poorly imo.

now you are saying "You could have TRIED instead to do this"

Yeah, you could have TRIED to help the Town in explaining why you thought the posts were scummy.

Well I didn't

I'm not TRYING to look town

I am town, I'm TRYING to find scum

Let's be honest, how much scumhunting have you done? Red Dragon has called you out for not scumhunting before, yet you claim you have been?

How does it seem like I'm trying to avoid you

at all

Because you didn't give me a solid answer, when according to you, you did have a solid answer, but you it wasn't communicable.

basically every post of mine in this game has been addressed to you because of your ridiculous behavior

Again, don't just say something and then don't back it up. Explain.

Might be gone for the rest of today. Will be V/LA from the 11th to 14th.

[Fegelein]

Shattered atm, will read up soon.

2birds1stone, Alexcellent and Norfolk Enchance are still on the vote count

Fixed

[Fegelein]

I'm thinking chillkid might be a scapegoat here (not seen him as particularly scummy, I know putting me at L-1 is considered scummy, but it seems to me that it's a scum mousetrap move). While I believe Bacde to be scummy (and I stand by my previous arguments against him), I think Cheery Dog's vote against chillkid is extremely scummy, and opportunistic as hell.

Let me re-read before I decide what to do with my vote atm. May ISO Cheery Dog too.

[Fegelein]

Oh wait, Cheery unvoted me.

Notes:
SAS pushing hard for my lynch...actually is a town tell, or an extremely high-risk scum gambit. You see, Scum know who the Town are, and they know I'm Town. If they push me so hard that they get me lynched, everyone will see my flip and it makes SAS look incredibly scummy for pushing for a Townie's vote. Scum tend to avoid this, and I've seen many instances of a Townie tunnelling another Townie hard. It's too high-risk for a scum IMO.
Agreeing with Bump that RC's posts are bad, scummy though I'm not so sure. He's quite scummy.
OOTN recycles SAS's case against me, when I've pointed out to Bacde that I've found it scummy.
Probably is a strong word, so the flip-flop on chillkid is notable "Probably Town" to "Constitutes a vote"
Simply says "Bacde is Town", not probably. Something's not right.
It's funny that Bacde thinks the players that I feel are the most pro-town are the most likely scum.
People not bothering to read Bump's point...sigh. At least Cheery did.

Yeah, at this moment in time, it's just people saying "Get on this wagon" and "No, come on my wagon, I've hit scum". We need to be able to compromise on a target, otherwise the Town is dead in the water.

#220 didn't help, but at least it made me lol
Cheery Dog sheeping Bacde's weak case. Extremely scummy imo, although Cheery's play has been better than before.
I quite like Om's case against chill though, a nice, fresh and unique perspective.

[Fegelein]

I'd say it is, it just seems too high-risk to be a scum move.

...So you didn't bother to read the rest of the thread, and just used RVS to determine your tells.

Tell me, how is that helpful?

[Fegelein]

I'm thinking chillkid might be a scapegoat here (not seen him as particularly scummy, I know putting me at L-1 is considered scummy, but it seems to me that it's a scum mousetrap move).

So you don't find it questionable that chillkid decided to vote you because he's (implied that he's) sheeping someone who was very recently a scumread to him?
Even if he is a scapegoat the case is legitimate, not to mention the fact that he's basically avoiding any attempts to get him to actually be useful. Get on his wagon plz.
Also Bacde is town, Cheery Dog is debatable right now (mainly because I always get scum vibes from him no matter what for whatever reason).


PEDIT: I've been able to call out the scum team accurately as quickly as the 35th post. I get my best reads from RVS and they always tend to fade away shortly after because logic comes into play (and I have shit logic tells as evidenced by the fact that any of my scumreads based on logic are almost always wrong).

Yes, I find it questionable, but I'm hesitant, because I feel chill isn't as scummy as some others here. I mean, you have a good case against him (while Bacde and Cheery do not), and we get a lot of information from his flip. I'm just concerned about lynching someone that I feel is more town than scum.

Also, why do you feel Bacde is Town?

@ Your PEDIT: Just because you've done that in the past (congrats on doing that btw) doesn't mean that it applies here. Sure, RVS gets us valid information, but I couldn't garner much from it at the time. Don't be scared to use logic tells though, it will help us a lot in the long run.

[Fegelein]

I'm defending him because I feel he isn't scum, for reasons I believe I have stated. His vote on me was still suspect though.

[Fegelein]

@Mr Bump: SAS is saying which one is making the posts, which is helpful.

Also, I'm surprised that qwints hasn't had much pressure for his play.

[Fegelein]

Personally, I don't find MrBump scummy. If you want some reasons ask, I'm working atm.

[Fegelein]

I'm going to reread the thread and see if I can find some scum perhaps. At the moment, I still think Bacde is scummy, but not as much as before.

[Fegelein]

UNVOTE: Bacde
VOTE: qwints

I want you guys to ISO him, and you will see how keen he is to jump onto vote bandwagons, and with little detail as to why. He's dramatically slipping under the radar here.

[Fegelein]

Basically it's people saying "Get on my wagon please"

As for what's happened:
Wagon on RadiantCowbells
Mini-wagon on Bacde
Me vs Bacde
Wagon on me
Wagon on chillkid
Seems to be leading onto a wagon on YOLO.

As for YOLO, I'll admit that I haven't really looked at him as hard as some others, I'm kind of still holding the null read, but I want to ISO him, just to make sure.

[Fegelein]

Peregrine finds Bump townish, Venmar finds him scummy. Interesting to see what they will settle on (unless P is OK with the vote)

I'm not comfortable with a MrBump lynch atm. He's probably one of the more pro-town players at the moment. He seems to be actively scumhunting, he's been consistent, and there's no real scum tells from what I can see. OOTN, SAS, can you tell me why you find MrBump scummy? I have leaning town reads on the pair of you, so I'm interested in your thoughts too.

[Fegelein]

Notes on YOLO from his ISO:
Asks some decent questions early game (probably why I got a town read on him early game)
Don't like the bandwagon on RadiantCowbells, without much reasoning thrown behind it.
Flip-flops on RC, but only after his viewpoint on a defeatist attitude, but that's weak in itself.
Votes SAS for no real reason. Says he is out of RVS. We were out of RVS ages ago, and he had posted after RVS ended.
Gut feeling, don't like the RC lynch reason.
His explanation on SAS is interesting, not scummy though.
Good question to Bacde.
Why did he not state his main reason in his first post? Really looks contrived and made up on the spot.
If he was mixed on the RC wagon, then why did he wagon him? Don't vote people for information that late in, go with your scumreads.
Says Norfolk makes a good policy lynch. Ehh, null tell to me.
He says all his content is serious. That include his RVS vote reason? I don't know, going to remain unbiased on this.
Not sold on his reply to qwints. Seems to not be keen on defending his townreads, which might mean a concern about appearances (scared about defending someone, as that too may make him look scummy). I really can't get my head around the rest of it.
Disagree with his point on wagons, it just leads to disarray and disorientation.
chillkid vote reasoning is a little lacking.

Overall, his reasoning is fairly weak, and I wouldn't be opposed to voting him. It's just I have a gut feeling he might be Town at this moment in time, as he has brought up a few good points and valid questions. Plus I have stronger scum reads anyway.

MrBump, while the votes themselves aren't reasoned that great, I can see why votes might be placed on YOLO at this moment in time.

And I agree with you on RC. In fact, his inactivity leads me to believe he is scummier than he was before. I believe he is active on site, unless he forgot about this game.

[Fegelein]

Can I have reasons why this Bump wagon is good?

[Fegelein]

If I were scum I really wouldn't be putting this much effort into arguing.
In fact I'd probably be lurking through a lot of this.

But what do you want me to guide you through?

I'm not really a fan of these posts, it's like saying "I wouldn't do this as scum, I would do it as Town"

[Fegelein]

Why am I the only one voting qwints atm?

[Fegelein]

Ehh, even though I don't find DJ that scummy, there's a possibility that he is scum, but that only applies if Om is Town.

Unsure where I stand on this Om wagon. Will think about it.

[Fegelein]

Ehh, even though I don't find DJ that scummy, there's a possibility that he is scum, but that only applies if Om is Town.

Unsure where I stand on this Om wagon. Will think about it.

this doesn't make any sense

fegel are you scum?

He could be buddying with Om, who in this case is Town in my example, in order to gain an ally.

It's unlikely though, but worth keeping an eye on.

[Fegelein]

If DJ is Town, it doesn't really have any bearing on Om's alignment.

[Fegelein]

I'm still standing by Bacde being scummy btw, just not as much as I was before.

[Fegelein]

Hmmmm. This puts me in a very awkward spot.

If that's really true then Om, then I'm really sorry to hear that, and you can disregard what I say next.

However, it may be an attempt to use a sob story alibi for your behaviour (I've done something similar on another site), and if so, it's almost guaranteed that the perpetrator is scum.

I just want to be careful in approaching this situation because I don't want feelings to be hurt and Om to be Town, because that's the worst of both worlds.

[Fegelein]

Just to going to show everyone my list I made:
TOWN
MrBump
Ztife
Red Dragon
Secret Agent Sloth
don_johnson
RadiantCowbells
penguin_alien
Om of the Nom
Cheery Dog
Bacde
evilpacman18 (for YOLO's play really, waiting for him to respond)
qwints
SCUM

I had a really tough time ranking everyone from Don to Om.

[Fegelein]

...Why are you taking my list as law?

And why are you just picking MrBump out of anyone?

Come to your own conclusions first.

[Fegelein]

You didn't really answer my first point.

Also Bacde, I still hold earlier against you. Don't think that I just forgot about that.

[Fegelein]

It came across as "Is MrBump scum? This guy says he isn't, so he must not be"

[Fegelein]

Actually, I found Ztife to be pro-town from the get-go.

[Fegelein]

And that's blatant hypocrisy, you piggybacked SAS's entire argument for a vote earlier, and claimed to see that as fine, yet you criticize me for stealing a read? (which I did not do, there is proof)

[Fegelein]

Explain how I was misrepping. Because I can assure that it was at least not my intention to do so.

I just feel that Ztife has the right town interest in mind, and seems to be geniunely scumhunting, without being overly concerned about their appearance.

Also, you did not piggyback on SAS, let me refresh your memory.

You voted me with no real case against me.
SAS had a case against me.
You said "I was thinking that all along"

Also, #433, I really don't like how you have to say you are Town to Om. It just seems unorthodox.

[Fegelein]

No, I meant you voted me for no reason, then you piggybacked SAS's argument, using it as justification.

[Fegelein]

You said I was misrepresenting you.

Also, your second question I can't really answer, seeing as I haven't played any other games with you yet (too early to tell). But it just seems out of place for your average townie to just say "Don''t worry, I am Town, let's get scum"; contrived more than anything.

I could be wrong, but it's just some psychology.

Also, I never freaked out, it's just that opinions don't stand for anything unless you explain. Had you given a sufficient explanation (the ones that you gave me weren't, and I notified you saying that they weren't), then maybe I wouldn't find you as scummy as I do now.

[Fegelein]

You said I was misrepresenting you.

Also, your second question I can't really answer, seeing as I haven't played any other games with you yet (too early to tell). But it just seems out of place for your average townie to just say "Don''t worry, I am Town, let's get scum"; contrived more than anything.

I could be wrong, but it's just some psychology.

Also, I never freaked out, it's just that opinions don't stand for anything unless you explain. Had you given a sufficient explanation (the ones that you gave me weren't, and I notified you saying that they weren't), then maybe I wouldn't find you as scummy as I do now.

[Fegelein]

yeah dude I was voting chillkid at the time

You voted chillkid after that had happened though.

[Fegelein]

Little tired now, so I'll respond to your big post later.

But I've seen nothing but good things from Bump.

[Fegelein]

I also find Ztife's reasoning quite odd. It would be much better to vote someone that you find scummy, than voting someone you find Town to "gain information". You gain information from lynching anyone, you can see who was pushing hard on a wagon of a Townie, and if they flip scum, you can check out their interactions.

Also Om, wasn't I probably Town earlier?

About my flip-flop on piggybacking: You either misunderstood (I didn't word it well tbh), or you're misrepping it (most likely the former though). I said that you piggy-backed on SAS's ARGUMENT, NOT HIS VOTE.

I admit that I worded especially poorly in 449 (I meant you didn't sheep SAS, you just piggy-backed his argument, you were voting me before that with a weak case), and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding caused.

@Don: I said why I thought Bump was Town earlier.

I'll respond to Bacde's large post now.

[Fegelein]

lol fegel,

I'm not worried about you finding me scummy

I'm really not

So you can drop the whole "maybe if you had done this, then I wouldn't find you scummy" act

I'm just trying to help you see the light, bc I'm actually town

and if you are town you are ignoring every argument that I've actually presented just because you think you've found something and you are purposely blinding yourself to the possibility that its not there

quote where I said you were misrepresenting me, because I didn't

Why haven't you checked my meta yet to see if my playstyle is usually like this? That seems to me like the first thing I'd want to do if someone's playstyle was unorthodox or throwing me off

pedit- dude, just check the thread. I'm not going to argue with you about checkable facts. I was voting chillkid at the time. I voted him later today, but at the time of your FREAKOUT, I was voting chillkid

First of all, why do you have to reinforce the fact you are Town? Everyone's going to say they're Town, but you just keep saying "I'm Town, don't worry". It's quite suspect tbh.

You said I was misrepping you early game, when I put pressure on you.

Meta only gets you so far, and it boils down to WIFOM at the end of the day. It just seems very out of place for a Townie to be saying "I'm Town. Remember that". I admit I haven't really looked at your Meta at all yet (I saw some of your play in State Farm, but I was focusing on another player), but I plan on having a brief look through.

You were voting chillkid before my "FREAKOUT", after my "FREAKOUT", you voted me, then you went back to chillkid, and then you just changed your mind on him when don took his place.

[Fegelein]

lol fegel,

I'm not worried about you finding me scummy

I'm really not

So you can drop the whole "maybe if you had done this, then I wouldn't find you scummy" act

I'm just trying to help you see the light, bc I'm actually town

and if you are town you are ignoring every argument that I've actually presented just because you think you've found something and you are purposely blinding yourself to the possibility that its not there

quote where I said you were misrepresenting me, because I didn't

Why haven't you checked my meta yet to see if my playstyle is usually like this? That seems to me like the first thing I'd want to do if someone's playstyle was unorthodox or throwing me off

pedit- dude, just check the thread. I'm not going to argue with you about checkable facts. I was voting chillkid at the time. I voted him later today, but at the time of your FREAKOUT, I was voting chillkid

First of all, why do you have to reinforce the fact you are Town? Everyone's going to say they're Town, but you just keep saying "I'm Town, don't worry". It's quite suspect tbh.

You said I was misrepping you early game, when I put pressure on you.

Meta only gets you so far, and it boils down to WIFOM at the end of the day. It just seems very out of place for a Townie to be saying "I'm Town. Remember that". I admit I haven't really looked at your Meta at all yet (I saw some of your play in State Farm, but I was focusing on another player), but I plan on having a brief look through.

You were voting chillkid before my "FREAKOUT", after my "FREAKOUT", you voted me, then you went back to chillkid, and then you just changed your mind on him when don took his place.

[Fegelein]

Cheery Dog, do you really want reasons that badly that you're going to put a vote on me?
I didn't add them because I'm lazy quite honestly, but if you want me to, I can.

[Fegelein]

Cheery Dog, do you really want reasons that badly that you're going to put a vote on me?
I didn't add them because I'm lazy quite honestly, but if you want me to, I can.

woah.

hold it.

So at the beginning of the game when I didn't post reasonings about something on p2, that was bad. But now you are going to be the same and wait until you post reasonings about something?

Actually, I was asking Cheery if he wanted reasons for my reads. I also have yet to plagiarize someone's read.

[Fegelein]

You came across as attempting to draw parallels in 496, which is what I also did in 497.

Really, all you said was "It's scummy", until I began to pressure you, when you said some other stuff that really wasn't relevant. Venmar presented a better case against me, and then you stole it.

Reasoning for a read I should have said. But still, anyone can say "That's Town" or "That screams of scum, LOL" without any real reason, and it's scummy to do so. It's scummier still to take someone's reasoning straight after, when you had in fact been posting in the thread.

[Fegelein]

OK, in order to sastify your needs Cheery, I will post my reasons (it's funny that you think Bacde is Town for the very same offence)

TOWN
MrBump

Nothing wrong with this guy at all. Good reasoning behind his posts, his arguments don't seem contrived in the slightest, and he seems to be taking everything into account. Actively scumhunting, and making good posts.

Ztife

I thought his early play was pro-town, and he was scumhunting extremely efficiently. His "settle on a lynch on someone I find Town" made him go down the list a little bit since, but nothing too drastic. Still Town.

Red Dragon

Scumhunting well also, and his case on YOLO was very persuasive.

Secret Agent Sloth

His reasons for wanting me lynched were defendable, but they seemed very much valid to me. I looked at it from his perspective.

don_johnson

His play is too high risk for scum I believe. Still keep an eye on him though.

RadiantCowbells

Don't know what to think of his acceptance of the lynch, leaning more Town because of it, but he's in the null read area for activity.

penguin_alien

More activity crucially needed. His posts aren't bad though, just impossible to get a read off of.

Om of the Nom

A mixed bag very much. Seems to be townish in some posts, scummy in some others. I wouldn't call him scum yet though.

Cheery Dog

His play's just been very odd, and not very townish. Recently discovered hypocrisy through an ISO, he simply calls SAS and Om Town. I'm being accused of hypocrisy, and yet the accuser is also being hypocritical? Hmm. Why didn't you explain? I told you my reason.

Bacde

You know my case against Bacde. Moved down due to recent play.

evilpacman18 (for YOLO's play really, waiting for him to respond)

Red Dragon really managed to persuade me here. Pacman's play hasn't screamed Town either though.

qwints

Please just ISO him. Moved up due to Bacde's behaviour.

SCUM

Taking a look at this wagon of me, I have a sinking feeling that at least one of those people on my wagon are scum, and it's either Bacde, Cheery or (less likely) Om at the moment.

Therefore, even though I can settle on a qwints lynch.

UNVOTE: qwints
VOTE: Bacde

[Fegelein]

JS, I am very, very happy in voting evilpacman18 at the moment.

[Fegelein]

I've been in the same shoes as don before (having to sub in for a scummy Townie), so I can sort of sympathize there.

I'm not satisfied on a don lynch today for reasons I stated above. I feel that the lynch with the largest wagon that I can agree on is evilpacman18 atm.

[Fegelein]

Cheery, your case against me is quite frankly pathetic.

I don't think you realise the severity of your lynch here. This is going to decide my fate in this game. It's not a little harmless RVS vote, or a reaction test vote, this is a hellbent "I'm quite sure he's scum" vote. And...you're using it on me with the reasoning "He has scum motivation"

That's incredibly sloppy.

In fact, from what I've seen, you've made every attempt to start a lynch on me/start a bandwagon with very poor reasoning each time. The first time was for semi-ending RVS, now it's for my ISO? Point out what parts of my ISO are suspicious, and I will do my best to defend them. To just say "Scum Motivation" is quite honestly poor.

And look, I've said I'm lazy, you've said you're lazy, and yet, I'm scum, and you're not because of that?

Gut feel voting at this point really isn't a good idea btw, I've already come up with logical/some emotional tells.

UNVOTE: Bacde
VOTE: Cheery Dog

It fails to matter because I'm going to get lynched anyway. Ahh well, at least we have a reference point when I'm gone.

I'd also just like to say that I've said the same thing about qwints before because:
1: It was not a final lynch at that point
2: His scummy play is much more obvious imo.

...on that point, qwints sub's first post seems pro-town.

[Fegelein]

Please note that I am not going on a Don_johnson wagon unless I have to (if no-one else is here that hasn't voted him near deadline)

[Fegelein]

TOWN
Mr Bump

Ditto.

Red Dragon

Ditto.

RadiantCowbells

Made a great point about Bacde that I hadn't considered myself. Contributing well to the game also.

Ztife

Dislike the whole "voting someone I believe is Town", other than that, good play recently.

Secret Agent Sloth

Ditto.

don_johnson

His response to pressure wasn't bad, and at least I can agree with Bacde on his playstyle!

Ankamius

Pro-town post made, needs to do more to erase my scum read on qwints.

penguin_alien

Still too inactive, and hanging on the fence a bit too much.

Om of the Nom

Still a mixed bag, his vote reason on me is a little strange, and shaky defence earlier still stands. Not significantly scummy though.

evilpacman18

He's pretty much refused to contribute for the rest of the day. Very pro-town!

Bacde

You know my case against him.

Cheery Dog

You know my case against him.

SCUM

I have a good feeling that Cheery and Bacde are buddies.

I'll see if I can get a few more townreads from their interactions.

[Fegelein]

I meant that he has NOW started contributing to the game well, he wasn't initially.

[Fegelein]

I have to disagree with you there, although it might have to do with the fact I personally found the acceptance of the lynch thing to be more of a Town tell, considering I found it natural.

[Fegelein]

I'm now pushing Cheery Dog as an alternative to my lynch just to let you know.

A lot of people believe he is scummy, while they are a lot of mixed feelings on me I believe.

[Fegelein]

I doubt we're getting any lynch through other than myself I don't think.

Venmar is really the only with a good case against me, and even then, they are some disagreements between him and Pere.

I still stand by Bacde and Cheery being scum partners.

Om COULD be voting Bump to say "Hey, I wasn't on that final wagon" on D2.

[Fegelein]

Both of them have been very opportunistic when it comes to wagoning me. It is likely that the final scum is more in hiding though (evilpacman18 perhaps?)

Also, doing a VCA, it's extremely likely that at least 1 scum is voting me, and Cheery seems to fit that slot the most, followed by Bacde. It seems to me as if they are double teaming me.

[Fegelein]

Om COULD be voting Bump to say "Hey, I wasn't on that final wagon" on D2.

Nevermind the fact that I said that I'd vote onto the final wagon if nobody joined me :/

It depends on whether it happens or not.

[Fegelein]

I'd still like a follow through though from you, I'm getting a relatively null tell from you.

[Fegelein]

Cheery, how are you and Bacde easy targets? And why is qwints only possibly?

That seems like a scum slip.

I'll respond to the bulk of your post later.

[Fegelein]

I was just pointing out the fact that Cheery and Bacde are anything but easy targets. Bacde's been registered on the site for over 7 years, and Cheery is an IC.

[Fegelein]

Bacde, you made me laugh hard.

[Fegelein]

...And I was the person saying that chillkid was a scapegoat?

[Fegelein]

Last post I can squeeze in, was about to start answering Cheery's post, but I now have to go.

Hopefully we can hit scum in Cheery Dog (very likely in my opinion)

[Fegelein]

I am the worst player in the world. I completely fucked up.

I know I'm going to fuck up with my next scum read, so yeah, take what I say with a pinch of salt.

[Fegelein]

So I'm a policy lynch for getting something wrong.

[Fegelein]

Actually, a better move for me as scum would have been to stay on Bacde and push him instead, seeing as he had 2 votes at the stage I unvoted him.

[Fegelein]

Wait a second.

If you were scum, you would have killed my next top scum read to make me look bad. I thought I was a town read, but now you think I am scum?

Reconsidering my read on you.

[Fegelein]

I'm really finding it difficult to juggle 6 games, host 1, and do my A-Levels atm, so I may request a sub-out.

[Fegelein]

@Mod: Please sub me out, I don't think that I can keep up activity in the thread I am afraid.

[Fegelein]

Yeah, I really lost faith in the game when Cheery and Bacde flipped Town, and coupled with exams, other games and IRL stuff, I couldn't continue.

TBH, I was thinking penguin scum for a while when I died, but I'm glad Town ultimately made the right choice.