Mini 1516: Mafia in Space (Game Over)

[Wake1]

Fuck it. Fuck it. Fuck.

It's Regfan and TvK for sure. And Fitz.

Garmr, I don't know if you're Town. I do know Regfan is Scum. No way is there a normal Doc and a 2-shot Doc in this game with two Masons. Please trust me this time Garmr. Regfan is Scum. He and I both know it, and he's doing everything he can to win this game. If any of you are Town, I'm asking you to trust me on this. Regfan is Scum, and I know of no other way to convince all of you he is. This is Lylo. No other way from my pov.

[Wake1]

Fitz is Scum. So is Regfan. I'm beginning to think you are as well, judging by your new posts and your vote on me.

Either we lynch Fitz or Regfan today.

If you're Town, why am I still alive, and why would they kill SG, who was at odds with me more often than not this game? I messed up. I fucked up Day 3. But if you're Town, if there's any part of you that trusts me, please vote with me to take out Regfan or Fitz. I no longer can tell if ICE is Scum. I did know it was either him or Regfan, but Regfan now cements it for me that ICE has GOT to be Town. I know I'm the Town Shield, and no way can there be a fullblown Doc in all of this.

[Wake1]

I'm thinking this:

1) Regfan (from my view, he's completely lying, and he knows it. He's trying to cement the win.)

2) Fitz. (Too many discrepancies. Only one NK per Night with two supposedly NK-capable entities. Promised to kill me. Didn't. Left me alive. I haven't protected him at all.)

3) It's looking like TvK or MME. I don't think it can bother be ICE and Reg as Scum.


We lynch Fitz or Regfan first. Then we use PoE to find and lynch the third Scum. This is it guys. Lylo. No other way. Fair warning.

[Wake1]

TvK, are you willing to compromise with me and vote Regfan?

If any of you are Town, please, please trust me on this. I know I erred Day 3. But this... no, this is the real thing now, and I hate feeling like the boy who cried wolf.

VOTE: Regfan

[Wake1]

It's too perfect. They left me alive in order to try and score an easy lynch.

It's too good to be true.

If any part of you believes this to be true, please believe this time and vote Regfan.

[Wake1]

I'm not Scum. No way would I do all of this as Scum. I'm not crazy scary brilliant. No. I'm a guy who trusted his gut to much and got burnt. And now that the real thing is here I've hurt my credibility.

[Wake1]

It's Regfan and TvK for sure. And Fitz.

Explain to me how you got me up there suddenly.

I'm trying to get my paranoia under control.

I'm absolutely certain on Regfan, and about 98% of Fitz. Once we lynch and flip ScumReg, we'll lynch Fitz. We can win this. Scum wants a mislynch so badly right now and it's going to take an exercise of faith to overcome 3 Scum in a Lylo situation.

[Wake1]

2)

Garmr and ICE are the only town reads I'd bet the entire game on at this point.

If you mslynch either of these guys you'll have to answer to me at the end of the game and trust me, that's something you don't want to be doing.

There it is. We are in mislynch or lose.

If we can lynch Regfan (looking past his solid posts and reputation), once he flips Scum we'll have even greater reason to lynch Garmr and ICE.

What I know for sure is that Regfan isn't what he's claiming to be. I didn't use my ability Night 1 because I only had two shots, didn't trust Fitz's claim, and wanted to conserve my shots for later Nights.

[Wake1]

It's got to be Regfan, and TvK's posts SCREAM subtle Scum angling for a mislynch. Why were you so quiet during Day 3?

[Wake1]

The only thing I'm 100% certain on is that Regfan is Scum, because no way is there a fullblown Doc plus a 2-shot Doc.

No way would I do all of this if I were Scum.

[Wake1]

@Everyone else who's Town.

They left me alive. I am the easy lynch. They are counting on you to mislynch me for game.

[Wake1]

I do not see Regfan and TvK in the same scum team. Regfan has been voting on and pushing for TvK for two days now (?). That is way too much effort for a bus.

I've seen, done, and experienced far worse.

It is more than capable.

[Wake1]

It's got to be Regfan, and TvK's posts SCREAM subtle Scum angling for a mislynch. Why were you so quiet during Day 3?

Because I believed you day 3 and I don't think I had anything to add to a claimed guilty on someone. You've lost all my trust in you day 3 and you should be happy that I'm at least considering a scenario in which you are not scum.

Are you going to vote me or Regfan, TvK?

If you're Town, if any part of you believes me this time, vote with me to lynch Regfan.

I know something you don't. I know he's not the Doctor. I protected you Night 2, and Regfan Night 3.

There cannot be a fullblown Doc and a 2-shot Doc in the same game with Masons.

[Wake1]

@Everyone else who's Town.

They left me alive. I am the easy lynch. They are counting on you to mislynch me for game.

They left you alive, or you're scum yourself and one of your buddies blocked Fitz and now you're trying to guide us to another mislynch.

If I were Scum, I'd be in the background, watching everything all play out. Like I did in my Scumgame, "Rows and Columns."

No way in hell would I take these kinds of extraordinary risks as Scum.

[Wake1]

Very much doubt he is, anyway I'm heading out for the night, make sure to lynch TvK tomorrow.

There's not going to be a tomorrow if I'm lynched. No way are there 2 Scum. This is lylo.

[Wake1]

If you're Town, please dive through my meta and see for yourself that I only take these kinds of gambits and risks as Town.

[Wake1]

It's me or Regfan.

You going to vote me, or the guy who's too Town to be Scum?

[Wake1]

And now that I think of it, if I were lying Scum (which I'm NOT), why the heck would I go after Regfan who's now fakeclaimed Doc?

[Wake1]

I can't tell if ICE is Scum. ICE, if you're Town, will you please vote with me to lynch Regfan? I was convinced it was either one or the other, and now that I know Regfan is lying then that means you're more likely Town in SPITE of what I've been feeling about you.

ICE, if I were lying Scum, why would I continue going after Regfan who has fakeclaimed Doc? It makes no sense, unless I know something others don't that's insanely important for Town.

[Wake1]

I'm the doctor

, there's no flavour ect. to my role whatsoever

That's a LIE. All the roles are flavored. I was the Town Shield (2-shot Doc.)

If there's any Town out there who KNOW beyond the shadow of a doubt that roles are flavorized, you MUST know that Regfan is lying.

[Wake1]

Garmr and Regfan are Scum.

We're in lylo, and they're going in for the endgame.

This is it guys.

[Wake1]

Two more votes and it's game over.

[Wake1]

I'm the doctor

, there's no flavour ect. to my role whatsoever

That's a LIE. All the roles are flavored. I was the Town Shield (2-shot Doc.)

If there's any Town out there who KNOW beyond the shadow of a doubt that roles are flavorized, you MUST know that Regfan is lying.

How do you know all roles are flavored? How can you possibly know? The masons had no flavor. You're the only one claiming a flavored role. Do you and your scumbuddies have flavored roles?

I'm assuming they are, because we're in a space-themed game and I was given the Town Shield flavor. I figured all other PRs and VTs are flavored.

[Wake1]

EEK, DON'T BUY INTO IT!

[Wake1]

Nope, TvK is Scum. Of that I'm now fucking certain.

MME and ICEninja are CLEARED.

I know my role PM was flavored, but I don't know why it wasn't mentioned when they flipped.

*Falcon, can/will you confirm that there are flavored roles in your game? I want to understand why you didn't make it known when people flipped, because I sure as hell know you provided MY role PM with flavor.

[Wake1]

Why are we cleared?

Because I'm pretty damned sure I know TvK is Scum with Regfan. TvK's suddenly active posts SCREAM Scum, and he's agreeing with Regfan, who is completely lying.

If we lynch ScumRegfan, we'll then know to lynch ScumTvK. After that, I'm feeling pretty damned sure it's Garmr, but it could also be you. ICE I'm trying to judge him WITHOUT bias.

[Wake1]

All I know beyond the shadow of a doubt is that we need to be lynching Regfan first.

It's either him or me, and this is lylo today.

[Wake1]

I know I messed up, but I'm asking you to reason with me instead of seeking revenge if you're Town.

We haven't lost yet.

Once Regfan flips Scum we'll be in a much better position, and we'll actually have a shot at beating Scum.

You cannot blame me for trying to fix my mistake.

[Wake1]

Keep trying, Garmr. Once Regfan flips Scum it's not going to look good for you.

I still don't know about fitz, because I can't conceive there not being two NKs during Night 1 OR Night 3.

[Wake1]

If you're Town, doesn't this feel like this is the perfect setup?

Every bit of your gut tells you to lynch me for lying to you Day 3.

But can you honestly say this isn't

exactly

what Scum wants you to do, because they assume you'll give in?

[Wake1]

Town, Scum knows I fucked up Day 3. There's damned good reason why they left me alive.

[Wake1]

Then mislynch me.

I'm in an incredibly disadvantageous position right now, and Scum knows it.

If you want to win, the only way out is if you trust me this time and lynch Regfan.

Scum knows my lie Day 3 is going to make it extremely difficult to convince Town to lynch Regfan, because only I know that Regfan is for sure lying and I'm damaged my credibility in this game severely.

This is why I'm never going to gambit again in the future.

[Wake1]

Do you realise you have 4 people you're convinced of that they're scum? Something's wrong in your logic.

Town, Scum knows I fucked up Day 3. There's damned good reason why they left me alive.

How are we supposed to believe you if this is the only reason you're giving us. And giving the same reason 14 times is not going to convince us either.

And I'm increasingly aware of your knowingly Scummy posts. You tiptoe and prod around the issue, while being Scum, knowing damn well I'm telling the truth.

I've been played like a fiddle for some time now, but no more.

We lynch Regfan, and once he flips you must be lynched, or Garmr. Then again, I can't trust Fitz because iirc Regfan's lie about being the doctor supposedly worked in tandem with Fitz being the Vig. No way can there be a Vig, a Doc, and Two Masons in this game, especially when I know I'm the Town Shield.

I'm getting pissed.

1) Regfan
2) Fitz
3) Either TvK or Garmr, and I can't fucking figure out which is which.

[Wake1]

I need answers from Falcon. Can you confirm that Role PMs are flavorized? You sent mine with flavor, yet the Masons didn't show flavor when flipped. That's a problem, and it's unfair. This needs to be resolved, or I'll need to bring it up to a list Mod or higher because thise discrepancy in your game is NOT fair. I'm a flavorized PR, and flavorized PRs should flip WITH their flavor once they're dead.

I know he gave me a flavorized Role PM, Town Shield, which was 2-shot Doc with the ability to either protect once per night for two nights, or twice in one night.

I don't understand why my role would be flavorized, yet the Masons weren't. When they flipped their flavor should have been posted, too. If that's the case this game is compromised, because I know damned well I'm a flavorized 2-shot Doc.

[Wake1]

Town, take a step back and look at the big picture.

I'm now absolutely certain Fitz and Regfan are Scum, and this is a classic lylo situation.

Please read between the lines. Please, you've got to see what they're doing.

[Wake1]

Fitz, at least have the balls to put your vote on me, liar.

[Wake1]

No way can there be a Vig, a Doc, and Two Masons in this game, especially when I know I'm the Town Shield.

You are in a 1v1 with Regfan. What good is set up speculation? How can a Vig..mason...doc setup be discounted when we have no idea how powerful scum are? We know they have daytalk and fmpov they have a role blocker. Setup speculation is white noise.

P.edit. I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of self hammering. Don't worry yourself...you have my vote

If I have your vote, put it down now. If you're Town, which you aren't, you would have had the conviction to put down your vote some time ago.

[Wake1]

No, I know for a fact the Role PMs were flavored. Why? Because Falcon sent my Quadraxis account my Role PM with "Town Shield" in it. That's flavorized.

OK, it's Garmr, Regfan, and Fitz. As far as I'm concerned everyone else is cleared. If we lynch any of these three and once they flip Scum, we win, because we can then lynch the other two for game.

[Wake1]

MME, if you're fucking Town, take your vote off me and believe me!

Because I want to FIX my mistake, FOR TOWN ONLY AND NOT BECAUSE OF YOUR ORDER, I'll VOTE: unvote.

But, we NEED to lynch one of these three. I trust you, I need you to trust me.

[Wake1]

I unvoted like 4 pages back because I went to work and had no idea if I could keep up with the thread and prevent a quicklynch by unvoting.

OK.

If you're Town, are you willing to work with me?

Please, we're in lylo. Of that I'm absolutely certain.

No way were there only two Scum like Reg said in the past.

[Wake1]

@Those who are actually Town:

I know I made a mistake. I want to fix it, but I need your help. If any part of you believes I'm Town, consider that Scum is going to use every

iota

of their energy using my mistake on Day 3 against me, because they know you're going to be justifiably pissed because I lied to you.

[Wake1]

what does AtE mean

Appeal to emotion.

He's saying I'm appealing to Town's emotions, even though I'm right that Scum is going to use everything they've got to use my mistake during Day 3 against me.

Also, consider why the killed SG. She and I butted heads quite a bit, but she also had a Townread on me.

[Wake1]

Vig that shit.

See, Fitz says he tried to vig me, but he says a Mafia Roleblocker blocked him. I say he's lying, and that there is no Town Vig. Iirc, Regfan says there is (I think?), and that he protected Fitz at Night.

Fitz, I didn't protect you Night 1 because I didn't buy your claim. Fakeclaiming Odd-Night Vig is easy to do as Scum. If I don't trust a claim, I'm not going to protect that person. I didn't protect, I haven't protected you yet, yet here you still are. You assume Scum have a Roleblocker, yet why would they role-block you when they could just shoot you? And I already know Regfan isn't the Doctor, so his fate is tied in with yours (both have hands in the lie), so once one of you flips Scum, the other will go with it.

[Wake1]

^ and she was your top town read. So you'd NEVER kill her....would you? And yet you failed to "protect" her. How does that even make sense?

Did you claim to protect anyone N2? I thought you said you did but I can't recall who.

Yeah, she was one of my top Townreads. So was MME. But when I found out I was completely wrong about my gut read on Ffery, I said to hell with it because I'm finding I can't trust myself with my heightened paranoia. So I protected Regfan, because at that time I thought ICEninja was lying, and that he was all-too-happy to suddenly agree with me after all this time fighting and take her out. But then Regfan announced he was the Doctor today. No way. Not with my role. So now I know I have a very uphill battle against an esteemed player with a Doc claim, against my 2-shot Doc claim and my deceitful gambit and wrong gutread from Day 3. It's the perfect position for Scum. Especially at lylo.

If I were Scum, and Regfan were Town, I'd gank him. Not SG.

[Wake1]

OK...thoughts on yesterday's end through today's events:

Wake...that was f'd up.  In hindsight...your "guilty" on fferyllt and continued adherance to that fake result (until you conveniently back out of your claim 7! minutes after Garmr's hammer) had not a shred of town to it.  What if there had been a real cop in the game?  Then your proposed gambit outs a PR town could have ill afforded to lose.  As it stands...you supposedly made yourself sole judge and jury on someone who most everyone else was leaning or committedly reading as town. 

From a scum perspective...it gave you (who were under some consideration as a suspect iirc) a chance to potentially out a cop (if your "gambit" didn't work out and there was a cop) and to eliminate a consensus town player who would have never been lynched (freeing up a NK for scum). 

From a town perspective it made no sense.  And then you leave us with the shred of doubt that you could be a doctor as we head in to last night.  I can only assume to make your existence today have a chance.  I was going to say it was to keep me from targeting you but as I assume scum have a RBer...that's not a concern.

Your claim to have not protected anyone (specifically me) makes absolutley no sense from a town perspective.  Why pass up on protecting a claimed Vig when there was no guarantee to would survive to D2?  And there was no one you felt strongly about as being town?  Bullshit.

And for you to claim SG was your top townread comes across very "woe is me" considering you protected someone you had a weaker town read on (Regfan) and you suspected SG as scum D1 (haven't looked to see if you did D2 or not).  So your actions...both protecting and not protecting make no sense.  I'm not even sure who you claimed to "protect" N2.

Regfan's counter seals your fate IMO and is laughable considering the risk you felt necessary by claiming cop.  I guess fakeclaiming is getting to your head. 

OK..had to step away from my post for ~hour and I come back to see the thread has exploded with Wake's arrival.  This is ridiculous.  Since you have come back in to the game this morning Wake you have essentially (and literally iirc) implicated everyone in the game as being scum.  WTF? 

This is crazy and considering I believe Regfan's claim (which makes perfect sense) over syours (which makes no sense and was preceded by a lie) you are obviously just flailing about.  This is classic. 

The only thing I'm not sure about is where do we go after you.  I was on the fence about Garmr but his posts today and vote on you have me leaning away from him.  Not sure if he is prone to bussing but his comments/actions make perfect sense to me and are how I would be reacting. 

I've had a town read on Eek most or all of the game so I still feel good there.  If there are 3 scum as I am inclined to believe I'm looking at TvK (who was also my alternate to Kid if Kid flipped town) and by POE...ICE.  I'd like to hear what he has to say on recent developments too before I vote Wake. 

I would vote Wake now but I think he would self hammer.  I'd rather get all the info we can from his lynch and not have him on his own wagon. 

lol...I can't get over how he is flopping around today. 

Seriously...is there anyone he hasn't implicated other than himself today?

  The only player we know 100% has been guilty of lying, risking outing other PRs, and getting consensus town reads lynched?

If we are in LYLO as I believe....all of Wake's risks make perfect sense if he can just get one townie to believe his histrionics that he opened today with towards me (who I assume he thinks now is town?  :LOL: ) or towards Regfan (another person generally viewed as town iirc) who has "Oh Shit!" countered Wake's twilight backstepping (since he knew fferyllt would flip town).

tl:dr;

too fcuking funny.  Flailing Wake is scum.  My vote will be on him. 

And yeah, you do say Regfan's claim makes perfect sense.

Of course you're going to say that.

What's classic is my example of why you should never do gambits.

You point your FoS at TvK and ICE, but now I'm certain you and Regfan are Scum, and MME. Garmr I'm having a very hard time sorting out, because he appears newbish, but I think he's smarter than that.

If I were Scum, the last thing I would do is risk a gambit, lie to everyone, get it wrong, mislynch a strong Townread, and then try it all over again when everyone's really pissed. No way.

[Wake1]

So, if garm and wake are town, regfan, tvk and me can't be scum together.

I know for a fact Regfan and Fitz are Scum. Their lies are entangled and comprehensive.

I'm not certain who the third is. Part of me is paranoid of each of the rest of you.

We should lynch Regfan and then Fitz, and let PoE figure the rest out. If I'm killed this Night after Regfan is lynched, then please you must lynch Regfan because his claims cannot stand without Regfan's, and vice versa!

[Wake1]

Ninja'd.

>_<

[Wake1]

So, if garm and wake are town, regfan, tvk and me can't be scum together.

I know for a fact Regfan and Fitz are Scum. Their lies are entangled and comprehensive.

I'm not certain who the third is. Part of me is paranoid of each of the rest of you.

We should lynch Regfan and then Fitz, and let PoE figure the rest out. If I'm killed this Night after Regfan is lynched, then please you must lynch Regfan because his claims cannot stand without Regfan's, and vice versa!

Damn it. My brain's frazzled.

After lynching Regfan, you must lynch Fitz should I die tonight.

[Wake1]

Eek, I don't trust Fitz, but I am trusting you.

We lynch Regfan today.flips Scum. I expect one of us to die. Fitz is lynched the next Day. Flips Scum.

AFTER that point, I don't know. It'd all depend on whoch Townies are killed during the Night, and all of the post history.

[Wake1]

Eek, i trust you more than Reg and Fitz at this point. Once Fitz and Reg are lynched and flip Scum, and Scum still isn't dead, and if I'm still alive and there's three of us, I'll have to really comb through the game thread leaving no stone unturned.

[Wake1]

Here's what's up.

I'm for voting either Fitz or Regfan. I'll fight like hell against anyone else's lynch today. Any wagon outside of Fitz or Reg will likely not succeed, because they won't get my vote.

It's either me or one of those two today.

[Wake1]

[Wake1]

Well, I tried.

[Wake1]

Wake88: What is the role PM "flavor" you are referring to?

"Town Shield."

When Falcon sent my role PM to my Quadraxis account (before I alt-slipped) it said I was the Town Shield, with a versatile 2-shot Doc ability.

[Wake1]

I've never heard of "Town Shield" in normalized play here.

[Wake1]

I've never heard of "Town Shield" in normalized play here.

[Wake1]

Normal Queue Rules

General

• All flavor in Normals must be public and entirely original. Flavor based on any sort of source material is considered a Theme game.
  
• Roles must use standard names, and Role PMs should not contain flavor.
  
• There must be at least one Vanilla Townie, and a sample Vanilla Townie role PM must be made public.
  
• There can only be a maximum of one Non-Normal role in a Mini Normal game and two Non-Normal roles in a Large Normal game.
  
• Only Normal mechanics and roles (besides the above variants) are allowed. See here for more information.

Everything here was scrupulously followed, and you were

not

a regular two-shot Doctor, as evidenced by the fact that you could use your role twice in the same Night. You should be aware of the rules of games you sign up for.

Oh, OK. I figured this was a theme game with flavorized roles, and that "Town Shield" sounded like something in a space-themed game. Bah.

[Wake1]

This is why I don't do gambits anymore, or trust my gut. And because Scum love logic, which is why I've never lost as Scum in 5-6 years, what else do you have besides speculation?

Where's the outrage when someone gets mislynched? Where's the outrage when a gambit works?

Now I'm inclined to never do gambits even if it costs Town the win.

[Wake1]

And Garmr, you should have listened. We hadn't lost yet at the start of Day 4, and I sure as hell didn't twist your arm to vote me.

Yeah, I messed up Day 3, but NOT Day 4. If you were Town you could have listened to reason over revenge.

[Wake1]

Normal Queue Rules

General

• All flavor in Normals must be public and entirely original. Flavor based on any sort of source material is considered a Theme game.
  
• Roles must use standard names, and Role PMs should not contain flavor.
  
• There must be at least one Vanilla Townie, and a sample Vanilla Townie role PM must be made public.
  
• There can only be a maximum of one Non-Normal role in a Mini Normal game and two Non-Normal roles in a Large Normal game.
  
• Only Normal mechanics and roles (besides the above variants) are allowed. See here for more information.

Everything here was scrupulously followed, and you were

not

a regular two-shot Doctor, as evidenced by the fact that you could use your role twice in the same Night. You should be aware of the rules of games you sign up for.

Oh, OK. I figured this was a theme game with flavorized roles, and that "Town Shield" sounded like something in a space-themed game. Bah.

This was a Normal game. It is in the rules that Role PMs are

not

flavored according to the original flavor the mod wants to apply to their game. And you had the following in the very first page:

Sample Role PM

Playername - Vanilla Townie

You are a Vanilla Townie. You have zero night actions. Your strongest weapon is used during the day and is your vote. You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Well, shit. I missed that. I must have confused it with a Mini Theme, especially because of the whole space-themed part of it.

[Wake1]

Also, Infinity, people shouldn't judge people based on how good they are as Scum.

I could almost here the shrieks when I started questioning Ffery, because, *gasp*, she's universally Town. Same with Reg.

What doesn't make sense is why Ffery didn't go full-blown rage mode the VERY MOMENT I faked a guilty on her. That shit has happened to me, and I raged and got it thrown off.

Instead, it's like at first she didn't even acknowledge it, and asked me unrelated questions. You tell me how I'm supposed to react to that. Apparently it had MME convinced as well. I only regret not doing this to ICE instead, since I KNEW he kept shifting, twisting, and mislynching. I wouldn't have gambitted if I didn't have to feel like this was a popularity contest.

[Wake1]

*As Town.

[Wake1]

And I'm not as bad person, and I'm not a bad player (especially as Scum). All the personal attacks were despicable.

My gut just told me Ffery was too-true-to-be-Town, like Regfan actually was.

You tell me what I should have done with my gut feeling.

How the hell else would I have gotten Ffery lynched? I didn't have the time or energy to wade through a popularity contest.

[Wake1]

Also, Infinity, people shouldn't judge people based on how good they are as Scum.

I could almost here the shrieks when I started questioning Ffery, because, *gasp*, she's universally Town. Same with Reg.

What doesn't make sense is why Ffery didn't go full-blown rage mode the VERY MOMENT I faked a guilty on her. That shit has happened to me, and I raged and got it thrown off.

Instead, it's like at first she didn't even acknowledge it, and asked me unrelated questions. You tell me how I'm supposed to react to that. Apparently it had MME convinced as well. I only regret not doing this to ICE instead, since I KNEW he kept shifting, twisting, and mislynching. I wouldn't have gambitted if I didn't have to feel like this was a popularity contest.

I am obviously not you. I was working toward a town win, not my survival. Despite your stupid gambit I was still townereading you and knew the chances were better that you were a PR or a VT than scum.

I even thought there was a chance you were cop and got an inno on me but didn't believe it - figured I was a GF.

You called me cannon fodder. Well, you proved that overvaluing PRs is bullshit because it's not the mod-given ability that matters, it's the basic mafia skills, including being able to read people who don't play the game exactly the way you do.

You did scum's work for them. Either SG or I would have been alive today most likely, we would have been voices of reason who wanted fitz dead after another 1-kill night.

I called VT cannon fodder. Not you as a person, Ffery. Where I played elsewhere, VTs were always treated as expendable pawns. "Oh, he claimed VT at L-1? Lynch him anyways."

[Wake1]

And I didn't know you'd just be lukewarm and snarky in response to a fake guilty. I figured you'd be enraged. If you had, I would have retracted it. My decision to stick with it was

based

on the reactions it

received

.

You calling me personal insults and names did you no favors.

[Wake1]

And I'm not as bad person, and I'm not a bad player (especially as Scum). All the personal attacks were despicable.

My gut just told me Ffery was too-true-to-be-Town, like Regfan actually was.

You tell me what I should have done with my gut feeling.

How the hell else would I have gotten Ffery lynched? I didn't have the time or energy to wade through a popularity contest.

You wouldn't have been able to get me lynched without lying because I was town, and I obvtowned the hell out of the thread after your gambit. You're just blind to people who don't react exactly like you do.

You're not good enough as town to play the hero, like you can win the game on your own efforts.

When people are innocent, they react aggressively, not defensively or evasively.

[Wake1]

How the hell else would I have gotten Ffery lynched? I didn't have the time or energy to wade through a popularity contest.

If you really want to gambit and get someone lynched, make the gambit, take it back, and if you still think they are scum make a case explaining why their reaction is scum and/or other reasons.

Seriously though. You

have

to work with the town.

How, if they don't do the same with me?

If you don't value a person's opinion, what do you think that person's gonna do?

[Wake1]

gg scum team! I never seriously considered ICEninja for scum.

This.
I had issues with both of the other two but never so much as felt a scummy vibe from ICE - he was my boy, and he betrayed my sweet offerings of nuts with brutal betrayal!

You tell me what I should have done with my gut feeling.

Assess it and ask others about it instead of fakeclaiming?

Did I not constantly note how ICE kept twisting, shifting, manipulating, and mislynching?

No, my opinions went on deaf ears.

Until it didn't.

[Wake1]

And I'm not as bad person, and I'm not a bad player (especially as Scum). All the personal attacks were despicable.

My gut just told me Ffery was too-true-to-be-Town, like Regfan actually was.

You tell me what I should have done with my gut feeling.

How the hell else would I have gotten Ffery lynched? I didn't have the time or energy to wade through a popularity contest.

You wouldn't have been able to get me lynched without lying because I was town, and I obvtowned the hell out of the thread after your gambit. You're just blind to people who don't react exactly like you do.

You're not good enough as town to play the hero, like you can win the game on your own efforts.

When people are innocent, they react aggressively, not defensively or evasively.

I did.

You were blind to it.

I linked to games where I was town getting lynched, and worked to try and solve the game all the way up to the point where the hammer fell and beyond.

You didn't do your homework. You want to reaction test someone, then you damn well better have a look at their range of reactions under duress.

Fair point. If I were to ever do a gambit, I'd research that player's whole damned post history on MS.

[Wake1]

@SG

I didn't know how to exactly articulate the Scumvibes I got from ICE, but they were constant.

[Wake1]

I will.

I never put energy to the concept of obvtowning, but it looks like I need to start doing that to its furthest extent. It just seems disingenuous to try and portray yourself as Town.

If you don't want to play in future games with me, that's alright. Others have said so, then they mellowed out while I changed, and we're playing together again.

[Wake1]

When people are innocent, they react aggressively, not defensively or evasively.

Not everyone reacts in the same manner.

If fferyllt thought you were Town despite your gambit, why wouldn't she weigh it? If she thought you were Town, it would not forward her win condition to get her Townread lynched. She was playing to her win condition, and choosing not to go on an immediate, pointless 1v1 did not make her scum.


You don't have the pull to strongarm a Town. You don't have enough of a reputation as a competent player to pull risky gambits and not have them immediately blow up in your face, like fferyllt said above. This happened here, and it was your fault, not hers or anyone else's. Work on having a solid game first, and only

then

, and only occasionally, should you branch out with dicier play.

How can I become as "obvtown" if not moreso that other players like Regfan and Ffery? Just soak up every single article on being pro-town, and emulate it to its fullest extent, while adhering to logic and avoiding emotion?

[Wake1]

@SG

I didn't know how to exactly articulate the Scumvibes I got from ICE, but they were constant.

Maybe you should have fakeclaimed on him then.

I should of. I weighed it for some time.

Analysis:

I think the scumteam played incredibly well. They were on the ropes at the start of D1 with Street and Herself nailing both Fitz and Banksys Flareon as soon as they started getting some discussion going. It was an incredibly difficult position where 4 competent town players were onto them. Regfan replacing Banksys was a huge turning point as he was able to persuade Street to lay off of him and to some extent Fitz as well. Fitz's claim was very well done and the timing (odd night vig) allowed him to stay alive for a very long time. ICEninja was just overall incredible in his play fooling several town players and leading a lynch on Kid A almost all by himself. The co-ordination from the team was really awesome as well as they used Daytalk to their advantage to co-ordinate several strategic plays which were all planned in the scum QT.

On the town side, Herself and Street were working incredibly well later on in D1 after a rocky start. The other big threat to scum was penguin_alien during her short time here who came up with extremely accurate reads. Kid A's 1067 deserves a mention since he nailed two scum based on interaction analysis. Eek did awesome coming up with all that pro-town analysis right when he was about to be lynched and turned the lynch away from him. Squirrel Girl showed a lot of pro-town play throughout the game and was likely one the mafia's biggest threat at LYLO. ffery's garmr-analysis under pressure was some of the best I've seen and if it wasn't for the gambit, I thought she was town's last chance of winning.

Regarding the gambit, I didn't realize how bad it was at first assuming Wake was going to be testing reactions with it but as time went by and he pushed through with the lynch, it completely spiraled out of control and was aggravating and painful to watch. I strongly suggest you don't try gambits like this again considering it hastened the scum victory by a considerable amount. Scum would have had a comfortable win anyways but the fake guilty pretty much turned it into a curbstomp. Scum still deserved this victory as it was apparent they were going to win anyways. I thought ffery's reaction was very pro-town and pretty much nailed exactly what hapenned regarding Wake being a town fake-claiming. It was a bad idea to push through just because someone knows your meta well enough to predict your moves before you make them.

To The Silver Bard, my advice is that you are becoming a really good player since the last time we played that newbie game together. It is sometimes frustrating to get wagoned, but don't give up and self hammer. Fight till the end.

There were a couple of errors from the my side but they got instantly resolved thanks to Tierce. Thanks everyone for playing and the reviewers and Tierce for reviewing the game.

Do you have anything positive to note of my play?

My questions? My large reads?

I need to keep asking questions, but really, really start using what I get back from them.

[Wake1]

I used emotion a lot an dpeople thought I was obv towny too. Clearly you don't need to go all robot-drone or anything. Just be yourself, cooperate, and scumhunt I think.

I've been playing mafia off and on for about 4 years. In all that time I have never been betrayed by a town player this way. People have gambited, have reaction tested, have pulled all sorts of creative tricks. And they gathered their reactions - reactions of the entire player list, not just me, their target. And then they backed it off and town analyzed the results. Fake guilties, fake failed lie detections, fake tracks, fake hammers, fake dayvig, you name it. It's been tried on me.

You weren't gambiting. You were taking the entire game into your own hands, choosing who you wanted lynched, and ramrodded it down town's throat while scum stood by and let you.

That is a good point, probably if he'd called it off at L-2 or something it would have been overall beneficial for the town still.

I considered calling it off, but I reasoned you'd just lynch me without even trying to lend me your ears. Easy to say you would now, but I doubt you'd think/say the same if we wound time back to that point.

[Wake1]

I mean, really. No one listened to me about Kid A being lynchbait. It just went through, and none of you would listen!

[Wake1]

I will.

I never put energy to the concept of obvtowning, but it looks like I need to start doing that to its furthest extent. It just seems disingenuous to try and portray yourself as Town.

If you don't want to play in future games with me, that's alright. Others have said so, then they mellowed out while I changed, and we're playing together again.

Don't try to be obvtown. I know it's really hard not to get lynched,

especially

when you have a different meta. (I've had experiences with this in the past). I really don't know what to say, because I don't have enough experience with this. Maybe someone else?

---------------

I still stand by my statement that regfan would've won had he been the only scum.

---------------

PEdit: Wake, I for one, understand you. Switching meta is very hard, and it can often cause a lot of distress. Your reads were going in the right direction in terms of looking where no one else did. All you need to do is know how to push them.

It was frustrating. I have the potential of being an extremely effective player, but I need to better understand how to play this game.

And it was frustrating me how people kept attacking me over my questions and walls. What the hell? People keep saying to be yourself, yet they turn around and smack you when you do.

It's not "emulating". You don't have to

look

obvTown, you have to

be

it. Pretense will get you nowhere. If that's not your style, forcing it won't work.

There are lots of competent Town players that are emotional. Heck, look at fferyllt. Logic alone won't win games, because human beings can and occasionally do defy logic, plus you don't have all the elements while a game is ongoing to make completely unequivocal logical decisions.

But analyzing the game with a clear head without preconceptions of alignments or without making arguments to

win

(which is what you did with fferyllt, you wanted to get her lynched regardless of her alignment), but instead arguing to

figure out alignments

and moving on smoothly once you've figured alignments out--that is a good start.

If you're not using anything you get back from your questions, you're asking pointless questions and need to focus on what is actually alignment-revealing instead. Having no followup looks scummy and just increases the noise.


And no, you should not have fakeclaimed to get ICEninja lynched. Even if you got him lynched, it would have been a fluke and you would have patted yourself on the back, called it a day, and tried it again in future games. Until you learn how to play Town

without

gambiting, you shouldn't be gambiting at all.

So then "be" what the articles say is Town.

I thought it was to be honest and go with your gut. I said I honestly thought Ffery was Scum for her demeanor. That got ignored. What's the next thing you do if you want to go with your gut?

I wanted to get her lynched because my damned gut told me she was Scum. That she was Scum looking Town. Like Regfan.

One the questions part, I'll take that to the bank.

I struggle playing as Town, because you have to work with stubborn, paranoid people who think you're trying to kill them, all while dealing with VERY convincing imposters who DO want to kill you all. As Scum, I'm very good at that. Reallyh good. Which is frustrating, because I'm damned good as Scum yet struggling in the town department.

[Wake1]

I mean, really. No one listened to me about Kid A being lynchbait. It just went through, and none of you would listen!

This is so wrong. You apparently didn't even notice how I argued against this lynch

Think about that. you were scum reading a player who agreed with you on a crucial read.

I've been manipulated and killed by Scum who agreed with me on 5+ reads in one game.

How does one think about that?

[Wake1]

When people are innocent, they react aggressively, not defensively or evasively.

Not everyone reacts in the same manner.

If fferyllt thought you were Town despite your gambit, why wouldn't she weigh it? If she thought you were Town, it would not forward her win condition to get her Townread lynched. She was playing to her win condition, and choosing not to go on an immediate, pointless 1v1 did not make her scum.


You don't have the pull to strongarm a Town. You don't have enough of a reputation as a competent player to pull risky gambits and not have them immediately blow up in your face, like fferyllt said above. This happened here, and it was your fault, not hers or anyone else's. Work on having a solid game first, and only

then

, and only occasionally, should you branch out with dicier play.

How can I become as "obvtown" if not moreso that other players like Regfan and Ffery? Just soak up every single article on being pro-town, and emulate it to its fullest extent, while adhering to logic and avoiding emotion?

IMO obvtown is wearing your alignment on your sleeve and showing your motivations in every action and stance you take. It means being clear and expressive about what you are thinking and why. It means at every turn, every role claim, every wagon run-up, thinking about how to make it do good things for town.

You have to sometimes veil some of what you are doing or thinking from scum, at least for a time, but even when being close-mouthed about something you can do it in a pro-town way.

It's not about convincing or appearing. It's about BEING and doing. I'm far from the best at this, but when I'm under stress or being tested I just drop into this mode of thinking a mile a minute, weighing options, making choices, and acting.

Fixed a tag. ~Tierce
(wooo abuse of power)

But when I do this, it's ignored. Or twisted.

I do "be and do," but when it gets ignored, what else do I do to get my Scumreads lynched? Especially when it comes to lynches?

I would open myself up quite a bit in past games, hiding nothing and showing my thoughts, but what does it get? Scorn, ignorance, or Scum twisting it all to hell or NK'ing me Night 1.

[Wake1]

If I felt I wasn't being ignored, and my ideas were being considered, there'd be no need for me doing gambits.

[Wake1]

"It is possible that wake's walls are disguising the fact that he's just dumb and fitz is scum after all."

My walls were me, what I am. I do have the ability to expend a lot of power and concentrated thought, but now I feel I have to restrain myself, because my earnest energy gets wasted on indifference.

[Wake1]

I will.

I never put energy to the concept of obvtowning, but it looks like I need to start doing that to its furthest extent. It just seems disingenuous to try and portray yourself as Town.

If you don't want to play in future games with me, that's alright. Others have said so, then they mellowed out while I changed, and we're playing together again.

Don't try to be obvtown. I know it's really hard not to get lynched,

especially

when you have a different meta. (I've had experiences with this in the past). I really don't know what to say, because I don't have enough experience with this. Maybe someone else?

---------------

I still stand by my statement that regfan would've won had he been the only scum.

---------------

PEdit: Wake, I for one, understand you. Switching meta is very hard, and it can often cause a lot of distress. Your reads were going in the right direction in terms of looking where no one else did. All you need to do is know how to push them.

It was frustrating. I have the potential of being an extremely effective player, but I need to better understand how to play this game.

And it was frustrating me how people kept attacking me over my questions and walls. What the hell? People keep saying to be yourself, yet they turn around and smack you when you do.

I know. It's really frustrating when you're attacked for your playstyle. Just tell them that. If people say you're using AtE, tell them that's a shit buzzword that people use whenever town is frustrated. Because that's what it is.

THIS.

It's not "emulating". You don't have to

look

obvTown, you have to

be

it. Pretense will get you nowhere. If that's not your style, forcing it won't work.

There are lots of competent Town players that are emotional. Heck, look at fferyllt. Logic alone won't win games, because human beings can and occasionally do defy logic, plus you don't have all the elements while a game is ongoing to make completely unequivocal logical decisions.

But analyzing the game with a clear head without preconceptions of alignments or without making arguments to

win

(which is what you did with fferyllt, you wanted to get her lynched regardless of her alignment), but instead arguing to

figure out alignments

and moving on smoothly once you've figured alignments out--that is a good start.

If you're not using anything you get back from your questions, you're asking pointless questions and need to focus on what is actually alignment-revealing instead. Having no followup looks scummy and just increases the noise.


And no, you should not have fakeclaimed to get ICEninja lynched. Even if you got him lynched, it would have been a fluke and you would have patted yourself on the back, called it a day, and tried it again in future games. Until you learn how to play Town

without

gambiting, you shouldn't be gambiting at all.

So then "be" what the articles say is Town.

I thought it was to be honest and go with your gut. I said I honestly thought Ffery was Scum for her demeanor. That got ignored. What's the next thing you do if you want to go with your gut?

I wanted to get her lynched because my damned gut told me she was Scum. That she was Scum looking Town. Like Regfan.

One the questions part, I'll take that to the bank.

I struggle playing as Town, because you have to work with stubborn, paranoid people who think you're trying to kill them, all while dealing with VERY convincing imposters who DO want to kill you all. As Scum, I'm very good at that. Reallyh good. Which is frustrating, because I'm damned good as Scum yet struggling in the town department.

Make a case. Look through their iso. Ask yourself exactly why the posts are coming from a scum mindset. Explain that to the people in the thread. No matter how confirmation biased people may be, they're not completely single-minded. Many people will fall for a good, well-written case.

It sure feels like they're single-minded. Do you remember how SG called my honest thoughts nothing but contentless crap? Yeah, that angered me. Brought me into Furiously Serious Gambit Range (FSGR).

She was so biased against me, she completely dismissed everything I said. And I HATE it when people nitpick and complain, especially when the people nitpick over completely polar-opposite things. Iirc, someone bitched about me posting to big, and another bitched about posting too small, etc, etc.

[Wake1]

If I felt I wasn't being ignored, and my ideas were being considered, there'd be no need for me doing gambits.

That sounds like an issue in your presentation of thoughts, not an issue in you presenting yourself.

I don't know. I say what I honestly think.

How to get you guys to agree, believe, and work with me is the hard part.

[Wake1]

To be honest at the start of the day was going to vote Fitz over wake. But wakes crying and failing and the emotional outbursts are what made my vote go on you wake.

You should have taken that as an "OH MY FUCKING GOD HE'S INNOCENT" read.

Wake? Being hysterical? Actually screaming we're at lylo? Half out of his mind because he's pegged at least 2/3 Scum and he knows he's at a MAJOR disadvantage?

Yeah, don't read that as fucking Town.

[Wake1]

I mean, really. No one listened to me about Kid A being lynchbait. It just went through, and none of you would listen!

This is so wrong. You apparently didn't even notice how I argued against this lynch

Think about that. you were scum reading a player who agreed with you on a crucial read.

I've been manipulated and killed by Scum who agreed with me on 5+ reads in one game.

How does one think about that?

It's not my fault that you can't read players who don't play the game the same way you do. I try to bring my best game every time I sign up, whatever my role. My scumgame is not that great, though I put a lot of effort into improving it. And this was nothing like my scum game. You made a superficial and shallow judgment about my play. This despite a wealth of data about how I play right here on this site. When I started playing here and discovered how easy it was to learn something about players I'd never met before, it was great. I took advantage of that data to try and improve my reads. I still do. It's a rare game when I don't do at least a cursory check on someone's prior games, especially when they do stuff that makes me suspect them.

I don't go that in-depth. No time.

I work 50+ hours a week in healthcare.

[Wake1]

But when I do this, it's ignored. Or twisted.

I do "be and do," but when it gets ignored, what else do I do to get my Scumreads lynched? Especially when it comes to lynches?

I would open myself up quite a bit in past games, hiding nothing and showing my thoughts, but what does it get? Scorn, ignorance, or Scum twisting it all to hell or NK'ing me Night 1.

It gets you a lot more than what you did here, which was playing against your win condition and getting blacklisted by multiple people.

You need to work on your persuasive skills. Ramming lynches through with a gambit that is high-risk, low-reward is not the way to go, you don't yet have the skill to analyze the reactions you get, nor the sense of timing to figure out when a gambit needs to be cut.

Patience, dogged determination and a stalwart attitude go a long way to build a good reputation others will respect. But stuff like this game? This will only lead people in future games to look back and think "oh, Wake is the guy who fakeclaimed and got Town lynched, ignore him". That is entirely the wrong way to go, because you're poisoning your present and future games for no good reason.


If you're being ignored, the answer is

not

to strongarm your way into center stage, but to find out why you're being ignored. You need to fix the problem, not to temporarily and haphazardly bypass it--the big gaping pit is still going to be there in your next games when you try to bypass it instead of filling it in.


Look at what you're doing now, for example. You're complaining that people don't understand your playstyle, but that is exactly what you did with fferyllt's playstyle--you did not truly attempt to understand how it could come from a Town mindset. You're wanting people to work with

you

instead of conceding you might need to work with

them

, and that typifies everything that was wrong about fakeclaiming to get fferyllt lynched.

I'm listening.

If you really want to gift me something that will help me, a list of precepts/principles/points to play by will be used by me perpetually.

Would you do that, Tierce? It would make me a better player. Of that I'm sure.

If you want to do that too, Ffery, I'm open to it.

[Wake1]

Do you guys spot anything good in my play this game?

[Wake1]

And I'm not as bad person, and I'm not a bad player (especially as Scum). All the personal attacks were despicable.

My gut just told me Ffery was too-true-to-be-Town, like Regfan actually was.

You tell me what I should have done with my gut feeling.

How the hell else would I have gotten Ffery lynched? I didn't have the time or energy to wade through a popularity contest.

reevaluate when people tell you that you are wrong

work with your town reads. town either wins together as a team or loses as a team. the quality of your participation can make the difference.

you can release the mason qt beloved mod.

had reggie, icey and street as scum at the the end of d1, could not understand the mutual town read between reggie and emp

emp

Yet it feels so one-sided.

I'm asked to work, hear, help, cooperate, consider, everything with the team, yet I don't get the same in turn.

Isn't cooperation supposed to be a two-way street?

[Wake1]

It just feels like people don't listen to me. And I don't like that. Not. One. Bit.

If I'm part of a team, I should be able to feel like I'm in one.

[Wake1]

I mean, really. No one listened to me about Kid A being lynchbait. It just went through, and none of you would listen!

This is so wrong. You apparently didn't even notice how I argued against this lynch

Think about that. you were scum reading a player who agreed with you on a crucial read.

I've been manipulated and killed by Scum who agreed with me on 5+ reads in one game.

How does one think about that?

It's not my fault that you can't read players who don't play the game the same way you do. I try to bring my best game every time I sign up, whatever my role. My scumgame is not that great, though I put a lot of effort into improving it. And this was nothing like my scum game. You made a superficial and shallow judgment about my play. This despite a wealth of data about how I play right here on this site. When I started playing here and discovered how easy it was to learn something about players I'd never met before, it was great. I took advantage of that data to try and improve my reads. I still do. It's a rare game when I don't do at least a cursory check on someone's prior games, especially when they do stuff that makes me suspect them.

I don't go that in-depth. No time.

I work 50+ hours a week in healthcare.

Then you don't have time to set up and properly execute the kind of gambit you did in this game. Much less analyze the results. I doubt you even looked at how other players reacted to what was going on to see who looked opportunistic or who looked like they weren't sure how to react.

Hint: ICEninja looked opportunistic.

I kept screaming that.

[Wake1]

It just feels like people don't listen to me. And I don't like that. Not. One. Bit.

If I'm part of a team, I should be able to feel like I'm in one.

Make them listen to you.

Use whatever tactics you can to persuade them.

Logic is usually best.

Which is what I did.

[Wake1]

Are you going to agree with me on anything I did in this game, Tierce?

[Wake1]

I want to know what I did right in this game, so I can put it on steroids.

Please help me, guys.

[Wake1]

You put in a lot of effort, and tried doing what you do even when others disagreed with you.

I appreciate that. I want to know what everyone thinks, especially SG and Ffery.

I screwed up with my gambit, but there's a lot I did that was beneficial, too.

[Wake1]

I found this:

"Wake - Commitment to the role is just outrageous. All of his questions aren't boss-level inquiries but there's so many of them that dynamic quality is to be expected. The fact is that if he were to die his ISO would be a treasure trove and there's just no reason to leave that kind of trail as scum."

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/hkDDTAqPmVa

If I understand this correctly, what I was doing here helped Town. And this was performed with minimal energy on my part. It could be refined and enhanced, leaving a massive fucking treasure trove of information for Town in my games.

[Wake1]

Okay wake, fun fact. I've faked a cop result on ffery too, in the past. Want to guess why everyone is pissed at you and nobody is pissed at me? And no, the answer isn't that I was right.

I'm not sure. You knew her meta?

[Wake1]

That did seem to be effective in gathering information

Also you should discuss your reads with your top townreads. This helps you share perspectives and you are more likely to be right that way. It will also probably make you more likable.

PEdit: You took it back?

Thank you.

I'm going to try discussing my reads with my top Townreads, too. I never really did that, because there was always the feeling that Scum is going to be the top Townreads in Mafia in general.

Took what back? (Sorry, I don't know what you're referring to.)

[Wake1]

Hey! Nice game! I am a friend of MME and was espectating.

Very nice job ICE! I had Regfan as very possible scum (he smelled like Yossarian), but I'm not sure I would have been able to catch you.

I want to know what I did right in this game, so I can put it on steroids.

Please help me, guys.

I used to play a few years ago, so my site meta may be a bit off but I used to be a much stronger town than scum player in the day. So here are my two cents.

Start taking some blame (and no, you are not, you are still trying to blame town for not cooperating with you). You fucked up. Don't try to "look for a silver lining" in your play. You only need one thing: humility. You are asking everyone to see what you did good, but did you stop to see where other people did good? Or, heavens forbid, what they did better than you?

The entire game you were playing by yourself. You complain that you cannot be a team player if people don't help you out. Guess what: to get sympathy, you need to FIRST GIVE sympathy. To get help, you need to FIRST GIVE HELP. Damn, working at health care I would think you would have this down.

So stop trying to think what is this great thing that make you an unique town hero, and start thinking how you can HELP other players. Think about what YOU can do to work together with them. Stop demanding, start giving.

Good luck!

I can help by providing massive amounts of information in my ISO. That suits me.

[Wake1]

Hey! Nice game! I am a friend of MME and was espectating.

Very nice job ICE! I had Regfan as very possible scum (he smelled like Yossarian), but I'm not sure I would have been able to catch you.

I want to know what I did right in this game, so I can put it on steroids.

Please help me, guys.

I used to play a few years ago, so my site meta may be a bit off but I used to be a much stronger town than scum player in the day. So here are my two cents.

Start taking some blame (and no, you are not, you are still trying to blame town for not cooperating with you). You fucked up. Don't try to "look for a silver lining" in your play. You only need one thing: humility. You are asking everyone to see what you did good, but did you stop to see where other people did good? Or, heavens forbid, what they did better than you?

The entire game you were playing by yourself. You complain that you cannot be a team player if people don't help you out. Guess what: to get sympathy, you need to FIRST GIVE sympathy. To get help, you need to FIRST GIVE HELP. Damn, working at health care I would think you would have this down.

So stop trying to think what is this great thing that make you an unique town hero, and start thinking how you can HELP other players. Think about what YOU can do to work together with them. Stop demanding, start giving.

Good luck!

I can help by providing massive amounts of information in my ISO. That suits me.

The point












































You

You know Cabd, I don't dislike. But I will tell you that kind of snark isn't going to help me listen to you.

If you find error in my posts, please point them ought with a modicum of general respect. Utter indifference, at worst, is better than snark if your goal is to help me to understand you.

[Wake1]

I realize that I'm not you, and that you're not going to be able to apply this as well as I do.

I was reading your post, and then came across this. That's an awfully condescending assumption on your part, Mastin. In spite of that I'll still read and consider the rest of your post.

[Wake1]

I've read through your post Mastin, and much of the points you've brought to the table I do agree with. If you're willing to say more, while discussing it with me, I'd be grateful.

[Wake1]

You really ought to have taken your own advice.

I thought my gambit was worth the risk at that time, because I could have taken not one but two NKs that Night, protecting Town. I think I'll stop doing gambits, because they're rarely if ever accepted in general.

As for the insults and personal vitriol, it's not warranted. Being mad over gameplay isn't a good enough reason to personally attack someone. That applies to me as well, and don't even try to make me laugh HP about me deserving insults because my actions "insulted everyone." What a BS excuse to come from someone who keeps up the appearance of being a civil intellectual.

Yeah, I say hurtful, stupid things when I'm stressed, but at least I admit it's all wrong and don't make excuses for it. I'd like to see if Matias, HP, and others can do the same as well. I sort of think they might be too proud or cocksure to do so. You can blacklist me if you want, but it'd be a reckless rush to judgement.

That I can agree with wholeheartedly.

[Wake1]

Now I'm inclined to never do gambits even if it costs Town the win.

I'm sure many towns on mafiascum will suffer, as a result.

Would you rephrase that please? I don't want to misunderstand you.

[Wake1]

He's trolling you.

If so, that's low.

You don't kick people when they're down.

[Wake1]

Well, just clarified I wasn't, so yeah. Just think it was an unfortunate confidence about a read. I expect you'll learn from it and come back bigger, badder and better than ever.

If you weren't, then you weren't.

I definitely will.

Any advice you can impart will have a lasting impression on my gameplay here, Faraday.

[Wake1]

I'm learning.

(Which is odd to say, because I've been playing for years. I guess I never got so into it, or considered studying and understanding the people.)

My original plan was not to gambit, but to keep pressing, asking questions, and really start utilizing what I got from them. It was just tough, because between work and the demands of the other players, it made it tough getting around to other things. Basically, pulled in many different directions. Iirc, SG said you can't please everyone, nor should you try, but at least in real-life I try to be as, I'm trying to think of the term, "socially attractive" as possible. Also, Day 3, I was prepared to give it my all, and if I somehow managed to reach L-1, I'd at least have a fallback by then claiming Town Shield and making it known that Mr. Fitz never received my protection. I guess I really didn't know Ffery too well, which is why my gut went off the charts in response to her posts. Whenever I'm Scum I'm incredibly reserved, calm, and logical. I saw that in Ffery, and had even noted it in one of my posts about her being like a mirror of myself when I'm Scum (and I've never gotten lynched as Scum.) The game of Mafia really is deep, isn't it?

I'm trying to adapt and augment my meta. It's tough rewiring years of play that was accepted as normal elsewhere.

I shouldn't be so afraid of sharing my honest thoughts, either. Also, I can't control the situation, but I can control my reaction to them. You have to live that when you're working in healthcare, so I don't get why I can do this in real-life, yet am having difficulty with it online. If only you guys knew me in real-life, you'd think we were two different people. I swear. Even

I

think that. Then again, in healthcare you aren't in a situation where it's either paranoid Townies or evil impostors raring to break your neck or put a cap in yo' ass.

What I need to do. What I REALLY need to do, is start understanding the people in this forum. It's hard though, because lack of time really has me shackled more often than not. Also, don't attack people personally or lose control of yourself. Mafia can be extremely stressful depending on the situation you know you're in.

IMO obvtown is wearing your alignment on your sleeve and showing your motivations in every action and stance you take. It means being clear and expressive about what you are thinking and why. It means at every turn, every role claim, every wagon run-up, thinking about how to make it do good things for town.

I'm going to start doing this. This isn't bragging: I'm very intelligent. But, I have difficulty working with people, and am susceptible (it's uncommon as a whole) to treating people who don't think or understand as quickly as I do badly. It's not just about being right, or being REALLY quick at gathering, processing, and applying information. You have to be able to PERSUADE others. And it's not enough to be right. You gotta coax people. Give them some honey. Make 'em laugh a bit. Deprecate yourself humorously some, or pay an honest compliment you might otherwise not have the time to give. I think a lot, very quickly, very deeply, all the time. It's draining. It can and does turn some people off. Intelligence is the acquisition and application of knowledge and skills, but what is it worth in a game based on interaction if you don't have the social art of persuasion?

There were things in this game that didn't help me help Town, but I could have better controlled my reactions to them. At least look over each post of mine and edit/condense/make it more calm and respectful before posting. The issue with SG, ICE, Reg, and MME criticizing my questions and large posts really angered me, and I wasn't sure whether I should engage them on that, or follow the advice of others and flat-out, completely ignore it while in game. Ignoring it because you are who you are and you cannot possibly please everyone.

At the moment I DO know that my

Annihilator Beam

has promise. It's flavorized fun from my Quadraxis account, which comes from my ultimate favorite video game series

Metroid Prime

. I just need to really USE the reactions I get from all of my questions, and keep on using it even if some guys complain about it. There was another flavorized "ability" I was considering using, and it's a really interesting concept, but I think I'm going to wait with it a bit.

And the Reads List issue.

I read your original and revised article on this Mastin, and I'm still stuck on what to do about it. Should I skip it? Augment it? What? Personally I'm comfortable with a Reads List that is very comprehensive, but in order to get people to want to read it I think I should put one or two very succinct sentences per each read, and then contain all that wholesome, informational bulk in a neat little spoiler tag to make it convenient on others. What do you think about that guys?

EDIT: Oh gosh, I just wrote a wall without even being aware of it.

[Wake1]

Doggone it, I put the

Annihilator Beam

in the wrong color code.

[Wake1]

What I need to do. What I REALLY need to do, is start understanding the people in this forum. It's hard though, because lack of time really has me shackled more often than not. Also, don't attack people personally or lose control of yourself. Mafia can be extremely stressful depending on the situation you know you're in.

@Wake if it makes you feel better I broke into tears inrl at a certain point in the game. So your not the only who takes this game to heart :p

I've got some really good stories for you once some other games resolve.

One game that did resolve was the last one me and Guyett were in, and I totally lost it during that game. Guyett can share his experience on that here if he wants.

(Extreme work. Little sleep. Dealing with dying and suffering clients while trying to be patient while providing comfort and clinical care for them.)

Looking back on that game, and the C9++ game... and whichever other ones... I need to make changes if I want to be a better player.

[Wake1]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p5435920

have a read. This is one of two things that you've done that made me blacklist you

Is the other reason the gambit that happened here Day 3?

[Wake1]

no the blacklist happened before this game.... this new one just reinforced it

Is it the C9++ game? Whether it is or isn't, would you please share it here? I don't dislike you Guyett, and I'm a bit down about you not wanting to play with me currently. Would you say there's a way to repair our relationship?

[Wake1]

*And NO I didn't mean it like in a romantic relationship. HELL NO. I couldn't find any other better word to describe all of our current experiences playing here on MS.

[Wake1]

I don't do gambits anymore.

I investigated Ffery, she came back Scum, and we need to be lynching her now.

no the blacklist happened before this game.... this new one just reinforced it

Is it the C9++ game? Whether it is or isn't, would you please share it here? I don't dislike you Guyett, and I'm a bit down about you not wanting to play with me currently. Would you say there's a way to repair our relationship?

it is yeah. Could you please provide a link of one of your gambits actually working on MS.net?
When you start playing to your alignments wincon properly and not pulling gambits that fuck over your town people then I'll play with you.

I know it doesn't look good.

For one reason or another I don't have links to any successful gambits of mine on MS, probably because they haven't worked.

[Wake1]

Maybe don't try those gambits then :/

try a fake hammer or something similar... don't try something like you did in this game.

I'm not willing to risk gambits for quite some time now, and only once I have a really good grasp on who the people in question are.

I did consider a fake hammer when I was at L-2 here, by saying it was L-1 when it wasn't. Might of worked. Probably not.

[Wake1]

Ffery, I'm pretty sure I was ringing the alarm earlier than that. It mainly had to do with his pursuit of TSB and Kid A.

...I knew it, ICE. mu gut was right on that, but I wasn't sure how to articulate it. That's what's so difficult about gut feelings.

[Wake1]

Work just got heavier; it's going to take some time breaking down and digesting all of the advice/thoughts given (thanks).

I would like to follow-up on all of this here or elsewhere in the future.

[Wake1]

You are a fuckiing piece of shit.

An absolute fiucking piece of shit.

YOUR read is flawed. I'm town. You're going to die.

And this town's LOSS will be your fault.

YOURS.

Wake, you are a fiucking, fuckiing monster.

Yeah. I also eat babies.

[Wake1]

Just reread this game over again, and am very grateful for all of the helpful advice and suggestions. In general I'm trying to use the advice you've imparted as best I can. Another thing that rings truer every day is that no matter how right you are, it's gonna be really tough persuading people if you're mean/nasty. I figure in general it'd be wise to polite, nice, and respectful... this holds true for so many things.

If... Ifyou guys are in the mood, I'd like to talk about this game some more. This one particularly struck me. What do you think any of us could have changed? Let's say the gambit never happened, but I suspected Regfan. ...what do you think are some things I could have tried to pin him down as Scum?

[Wake1]

Yeah, I need to awaken the Piers Brosnan in me. SECRET AGENT MAN.

My ability to make cases needs improvement. There's always some sort of tell. A little something extra, a little something missing. Or stuff out of place at certain times.

And then after everything's gathered to make the case, I need to be able to persuade people. I'm not sure how to do that without being perceived as buddying or being too nice...

There is always some little thread sticking out, just waiting to be unraveled.

[Wake1]

And then after everything's gathered to make the case, I need to be able to persuade people. I'm not sure how to do that without being perceived as buddying or being too nice...

The thing is, people have to have a reason if they disagree with you. If they don't, you can ask them why not.

Then, you can give your reason back (but remember to consider the possibility that they're right), etc. until one of you is convinced. So really all you have to do is explain why

you

think they are scum.

Important to note is that you could just agree to disagree, which is too bad, but you don't

need

to convince everyone. Just enough people.

I need to practice this more. It's really easy for me to keep up an illusion as Scum, but I have trouble as Town trying to push forward cases and get other players to listen to me and follow along.

It'd be wise to always check people's reasonings, and question those that don't sound right. If I were Town I could adhere to nothing but logic... but it's so easy to do this as Scum, too. I should try to dig my heels in more and take on and grapple with these players with logic and reason, in order to subdue and redirect them as Town.