Mini 1560 - Reck's Walk of Shame (GAME OVER)

[AGar]

Ok so I'm read up.

Undo is scum. Take it to the bank. A lot of words, not a lot of logical deduction or reasoning. A lot of confidence that has no basis in being there. A lot of internal conflict with this one. On one hand is posting shit that implies moderate culture shock due to length away from the game. On the other hand, posting very strong opinions about players that one would not expect from someone who has such culture shock, and I saw a few choices of rhetoric that were unlikely to be coming from a town player early on.

Titus is also probscum. Will elaborate upon request or when necessary, but we should lynch undo first.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: undo

[AGar]

Checked a VC. Natirasha is on this wagon. I like it even better.

[AGar]

Checked a VC. Natirasha is on this wagon. I like it even better.

Nat moved off the undo wagon. I like your posting though, would probably move undo up over your slot in my "To Lynch" list.

Well that's unfortunate that he did that. My vibes still stand though.

[AGar]

Willing to blindly sheep competent people for the rest of the day.

Good, vote Undo if you aren't already.

[AGar]

This so-called 'culture shock' doesn't refer to the time I was away per se, but to the fact that proper discussion and scumhunting appear to be no longer fashionable in 2014 as they were in 2008 - at least in this game (not in all games, fortunately). A lot of players are content with posting irrelevant one-liners, or behave erraticly, or voting people without expressing any reasoning whatsoever. This was the first game I joined since I returned to mafiascum, so I was surprised with the lack of commitment to constructive posting, as I was used to.

You claim that "proper discussion" and "scumhunting" appear to be no longer fashionable. That in and of itself admits a lack of familiarity with what drives the current meta (and, no they aren't, conciseness has simply come into style). But then you post things like this:

Thirdly, it's very meaningful that I am currently your "main scumread". When you know who the mafia are, it's easier to place your suspicions on those who attack you.

Which are not confidences I would expect with someone who isn't intimate with the current meta. How can you be so sure who is scum and who isn't scum if you don't know how people find scum anymore?

This undo wagon is awful. It will also generate no info whatsoever since the odds that undo will react in any way to being lynched are nil.

So Aegor, is Titus your buddy too? Is undo a power role? I bet he is. I bet he fucking is, isn't he. You little slick bastard, I bet you thought you had us.

@UT

Does Aegor read as a scumbutt protectiong a townie for towncred, or does he read like a scumbutt trying to save his stronger-scumbutt-buddy's ass? I get the latter.

[AGar]

I don't like to use associative tells for two unflipped players

at this current moment I'm reading it as the former. we can reevaluate tomorrow

ps why aren't you voting him yet

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aegor

Because I'm half-awake for some reason.

Also, hi, thanks for realizing I replaced CDB. Your unfounded scumread because CDB flaked as always is hysterical.

[AGar]

EBWOP: Second half was aimed at Aegor.

[AGar]

Not coincidentally, your two votes have been on the players who have actually explained their reads on players most thoroughly. And neither is backed by any reason, or, in my case, any attempt at one.

Explaining your reads != town

[AGar]

Given that you explained not at all how any of those reads are scum-motivated or generated, you basically are saying that explaining reads is somehow scummy.

You should try actually reading my posts. It would really help you.

[AGar]

"When you know who the mafia are, it's easier to place your suspicions on those who attack you." Is this somehow untrue nowadays?

No, it still holds true, and that wasn't my point. My point was it takes a lot of confidence in ones reads to start throwing rhetoric around like that. Confidence that I would absolutely not expect from someone who isn't aware of what the current site meta is, and therefore wouldn't be entirely sure what to look for in a pro-town player. Post 107 builds on a lot of weak reasons (some extreme stretches, like a) that might have held true 5 years ago as simple scumtells but have no business being thrown around today and then throws out that line. A little over four pages into the game and you have found scum! That is mighty impressive. We should nominate you for Paragon.

P-Edit: Chamber, vote Aegor.

[AGar]

undo's town fo sho.

I'm going to keep letting Agar/CDB buddy me at the moment.

and fuck you guys on Aegor. VOTE: Cooldog

Undo

and

Aegor are town? Nonononononono.

---

Post 677 is a whole lot of bullshit and nothing. Just figured I'd point that out.\

Posing questions and interrogation is not my forte, I rely more on analyzing existing content. That's what I did when I posted my views on Freak, Doc Holliday, CDB and NicCage -- I analyzed posts, interactions and events, I interpreted them, I drew conclusions. When you do this kind of analysis work, you're more prone to be confident about your conclusions -- this is because you're not actually searching for content, you are rather putting forward a theory based on already observable game evidence. This confidence is also useful to pressure the concerned players and assess the way they deal with this kind of 'attack'.

You just explained everything wrong with your play-style.

A rather presumptuous statement, isn't it?

Please let us end this discussion. It has distracted us enough, and it's not helping us finding scum at all.

You're free to start whenever, bud.

---

Dear Absta,

Who's scum?

Sincerely,
AGar

Don't wanna vote Natirasha yet. Would much prefer Aegor or undo. Will vote to preserve a lynch if we get close to deadline. Still unemployed so I can get on and check whenever.

[AGar]

Dear Agar,

Who am I voting?

Sincerely,
absta

Yeahhhh that's not good enough. I want more than just "Look at who I'm voting hurr durr."

[AGar]

holy shit, you want? YOU WANT!? I best get to it then.

You best.

Hey can we like have an awesome vote block of AGar-absta-Aegor-me?

I don't like 2 of the people in that bloc, and then you're not an "A" user.

Too many problems, not enough solutions.

[AGar]

But I like you three!

I'm touched. Really.

VOTE: CooLDoG

:goodvoting: Dammit Aegor, quit fucking things up. *grumble*

P-Edit: Too easily feigned, easy out, etc etc etc. Not buying it, all that jazz.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CooLDoG

Undo still scum.
Titus was suspect. Chamber is chamber. Dammit chamber.
Uneasy mixed feelings about Aegor. Fck.

[AGar]

Bella, have you been paying attention to CD's posting, by chance? Like how he absolutely refuses to say anything that would draw any attention to him?

[AGar]

VOTE: Undo

Massclaim would be a pretty awful idea.

[AGar]

The waggon was also pretty fast. Think about it.

what implication do you draw from the speed?

Confidence. Chances are, at least one scum was on the waggon and it probably isn't Aegor. He moved from the NC waggon even though it had more votes than the CD waggon.

VOTE: Agar
Ez game.

Cute.

[AGar]

Bella, have you been paying attention to CD's posting, by chance? Like how he absolutely refuses to say anything that would draw any attention to him?

I didn't say anything about CD being a bad lynch, I said it was a bad wagon. There was never any serious momentum behind a CD lynch and there were better options - without the benefit of hindsight, if you were happy voting CD, then you should have been happy voting NicCage, who was closer to a lynch if your motivation was to avoid a no lynch and had a similar case made against him.

And I never said anything about you saying it was a bad lynch. I simply asked if you had been following along in order to understand the basis for the votes. I also didn't like the NicCage wagon because of the people on it. You, undo and CD were on it. CD flipped scum and was someone I wasn't thrilled with from the time I replaced in. Undo has been my top scumread since D1. Yours and Fate's posting has done little to inspire any confidence in me. It would be highly improbable that all three of you were teammates bunched onto one wagon, but needless to say there was absolutely zero chance I was voting in sync with the three of you.

[AGar]

This game makes me want to strangle something/someone.

[AGar]

then vote yourself and be done with it.

You're a joke.

[AGar]

Purposefully waiting for Bella to actually post before moving the vote, but the consideration is there. Dislike the up and disappearance.

[AGar]

Bella, have you been paying attention to CD's posting, by chance? Like how he absolutely refuses to say anything that would draw any attention to him?

I didn't say anything about CD being a bad lynch, I said it was a bad wagon. There was never any serious momentum behind a CD lynch and there were better options - without the benefit of hindsight, if you were happy voting CD, then you should have been happy voting NicCage, who was closer to a lynch if your motivation was to avoid a no lynch and had a similar case made against him.

And I never said anything about you saying it was a bad lynch. I simply asked if you had been following along in order to understand the basis for the votes. I also didn't like the NicCage wagon because of the people on it. You, undo and CD were on it. CD flipped scum and was someone I wasn't thrilled with from the time I replaced in. Undo has been my top scumread since D1. Yours and Fate's posting has done little to inspire any confidence in me. It would be highly improbable that all three of you were teammates bunched onto one wagon, but needless to say there was absolutely zero chance I was voting in sync with the three of you.

You clearly implied that I was questioning the reasoning behind the lynch as opposed to the circumstances. To say otherwise either a carelessness in wording that I'd consider beneath you or a flat out deception.

No, my implication was that you might have not realized CD's habit considering how he was approaching the game. It was an attempt to bring up the very reason as to why at least I was voting him out of what was pretty much, from everyone else's point of view, the blue from where I had been. I didn't know town shouldn't try and get their suspects lynched anymore.

Purposefully waiting for Bella to actually post before moving the vote, but the consideration is there. Dislike the up and disappearance.

I'm sick. Sue me. (Also, I could have sworn I should have had a post somewhere between 829 and 830 but either the thread ate it or I screwed up and failed to post it). I'm also guilty of being way less interested in this game than when Fate was playing in it which was like 90% of the reason I agreed to replace in. Blech. I'll try harder, I guess.

Noted.

---

Would still prefer an undo lynch, after all is said and done. Aaaand I'll post the actual meat of why tomorrow, considering I once again didn't sleep and have two job interviews today among other things.

[AGar]

Chamber, elaborate on absta and slandaar as top lurkerz when roughly half this game (myself included) was doing absolutely fuckall for the roughly 24 hours leading up to that post?

[AGar]

Chamber, elaborate on absta and slandaar as top lurkerz when roughly half this game (myself included) was doing absolutely fuckall for the roughly 24 hours leading up to that post?

Everyone was lurking, I asked myself how I would lurk as scum if the whole town was lurking too, their play best fit my answer. I never claimed they were lurking the most, that would be an objectively incorrect statement.

I disagree but ok.

[AGar]

My gut is really telling me to shift to Agar. As much as I've tried to ignore it 'cause he replaced out, I still have that nagging feeling that Fate wouldn't have misread me that badly as to accuse me of being scum even with whatever issues he's going through. He's usually got an excellent read on me. Like, it takes a couple of posts for him to settle on it and be right. It's infuriating. I feel it is important to express this now, before you people mislynch me.

Why AGar?

I beg of you, keep fishing for BS to stick to.

[AGar]

My gut is really telling me to shift to Agar. As much as I've tried to ignore it 'cause he replaced out, I still have that nagging feeling that Fate wouldn't have misread me that badly as to accuse me of being scum even with whatever issues he's going through. He's usually got an excellent read on me. Like, it takes a couple of posts for him to settle on it and be right. It's infuriating. I feel it is important to express this now, before you people mislynch me.

Why AGar?

This is not about AGar per se. AGar replaced Fate. That's about all it has to do with him. My read on AGar is leaning town, which is why I'm conflicted. Plus, since Fate was dealing with stuff, he might just have got it wrong. I don't know.

I replaced CDB, fwiw.

[AGar]

More meta please, we all like that bull shit.

Bella, there's a vote incoming soon unless you help me vote Agar.

This is hysterically terrible.

[AGar]

Why Undo is Scum:

A Profile, Explanation and Persuasion

General Posting & Attitude

- Bravado and feigned confidence in his reads, as evidenced by his weak switches between Freak and NicCage Day 1.
- Very little effort to call people’s attention to his suspects, rather spends his time going back and forth with his suspects in a poor battle of wits and snark.
- Extrapolates loose definitions of “lurking” to fit his needs to slide into the FotW bandwagon. First it’s five out of seven posts being game relevant. Then it’s three of six. Abusing small sample sizes to make points.
- Attempting to direct suspicion/leave himself outs by hinting at a 3rd party possibility in post #793, a post which came after Natirasha claimed the shot on NicCage
- Frequently questions in a manner that leads to fish for ways to latch onto cases on other players.
- No effort to push cases with any sincerity. Posts one thing and hopes it latches.

Interactions With Flipped Players

- Rode hard and relentlessly into two townies with strong and confident scumreads.
- Flipped scum only mentioned him positively. Only mentions CD to buddy up (Post #176) and then to seemingly goad him into claiming (Post #760) when he was at L-1.
- Never actually acknowledges anything about the case or push on CoolDog, even though he posts during it gathering steam.

Vote Patterns

Day 1

- Votes Freak in #107, 2nd vote on the wagon. CoolDog had previously voted Freak in #46, citing posts #20 & #28 as his reasoning. So it wasn’t a non-serious vote by CoolDog.
- Votes NicCage in #378, 3rd vote on the wagon, after Bella and Natirasha placed their votes. Bella made an argument that basically undo copied and put a lot more words into, likely with the hopes that no one would pick up on him C/Ping someone else’s argument.

Day 2

- Votes Chamber in #793, 2nd vote. Again, piggy backing off of Bella, although he made his own BS up this time.

[AGar]

This game has slowed to a snails pace.

Does anyone think Bella is town? speak up now otherwise she is today's lynch.

Do you have a reason for your scumread that doesn't hinge on she meta'd Fate and wouldn't do the heavy lifting for you?

Because that reasoning sucks.

[AGar]

Picture this scenario:
Player X: Guys I am unsure how to defend myself is there anything you want addressed?
Player Y: Yes actually you could try answering this and showing where you get this impression from!
Player X: B&Q is down the street!

This scenario is fucking stupid and makes no sense/does not illustrate a point.

I'm pretty much going to not vote on any wagon you're on at this point because you're clearly braindead.

[AGar]

LOL.

This game just got catty. Bella is a bad lynch. Her latest posts seem town to me. I would much rather lynch Jordan. Or UT.

What if we lynched absta? The more I read his posts, the less I think he's doing anything other than letting the stupid BS surrounding Bella provide a cover for his absolute uselessness.

[AGar]

This scenario is fucking stupid and makes no sense/does not illustrate a point.

I'm pretty much going to not vote on any wagon you're on at this point because you're clearly braindead.

I thought that it's logical when you first propose an idea for example the world is round you then provide evidence to back up your claim. If that wasn't the case and the strategy was the old 'hey guys the world is round' and when they ask for evidence say 'go find out for yourselves!' I am fairly sure they would not believe you and if I had used a different example it would be easier to see how there is huge room to just invent statements. For example; The world is flat and at the end of it there are huge waterfalls that never end 'Uh please back that up' 'Go find out yourselves!!!'.

I just don't know what to think anymore!

The point is that I was looking to see where Bella got her opinion from and instead of getting an answer I am told to find out myself which is just nonsense because obviously I am not going to do that.
1. I don't believe it actually exists.
2. It is open to interpretation as the situation exists wherein Bella believes but I don't even looking at the same game therefore it is possible never to find it even when Bella believes it.
3. It would take Bella 2 minutes while it would take me literally hours and hours.

I don't go on wild goose chases.

Why is this relevant to alignment? well simple; she opened herself up for questioning I asked a sensible legitimate question to give her the chance to show her point of view she has refused to do so. Why would she do that? she is not telling the truth and it doesn't exist that is the obvious conclusion.

What was so bad about my scenario?

First of all your scenario didn't illustrate the point you're trying to make. At all. It was completely just off.
Second, Bella never actually opened up herself to "questioning." Do you ask everyone who ever makes a meta read the same questions? If so, stop doing that because you're being a useless hassle and fucking annoying.
Finally, if you DO want to understand a player's meta, the burden is on YOU, not anyone else, to do the requisite reading to understand it.

So yes, your case does, in fact, hinge on you didn't want to do the heavy lifting and Bella wouldn't do it for you. Why isn't anyone else in this game scummy for not challenging the way Fate was posting but also not providing you with "Hey, this is how Fate posts. See X." ? Like, your case is specifically attributing the fact that Bella chose to speak up instead of anyone else about Fate's playstyle.

So do you want to give up on this one or keep trying to squirm out of reasons.

[AGar]

Based on Jordan's posting history, it appears to be a site-wide flake, which typically has nothing to do with his alignment.

My request for votes on Jordan has absolutely nothing to do with his flaking.

And it is bothersome that you would reduce an actual case to a PL on a flake.

Your case on Jordan sucks, tbh.

That's why no one actually gives a shit about it and generally deduces it to a PL on a flake.

You've been so keen on not pushing it that I find it hard to believe you give a shit about it yourself.

Prove me wrong.

[AGar]

I mean, they all pretty much suck. I did a case on undo but I know you've been high on him as town since the getgo, so I'm not getting my hopes up here with convincing you.

I really want to lynch absta, but I don't see this group of players (myself included) coming around and building a wagon in a bit over 2 days.

[AGar]

Chamber, do you think Agar is scum?

I have at different points. Now that more of CDBs ongoing games are done from when he flaked, I should really check how many he was scum in. Thats the biggest reason (though not only) to suspect the slot.

...

I really thought you were better than that.

That's scummy as shit if that's what you're hinging a read on late Day 2.

[AGar]

Clearly a spelling error in that NK submission as I was definitely obvtowning harder than Aegor. -.-

Buuut really there's a million things in my brain about this game and I need time to formulate all of them and vomit them into a thread so give me like 24 hours or something reasonable.

[AGar]

Sorry Bella I tunnelled you too much in hindsight.

VOTE: UT

I think if we just lynch UT/AGar/Chamber we win I really don't see anyone else being scum.

Yeah fucking kill this.

[AGar]

My turn?

Flying pumpkin who shoots spacebeams out of his ass.


VT.

[AGar]

so

the sample VT pm doesn't have flavor

just saying

...

...

[AGar]

............

it was a mass claim, not an open mic

Pardon me for enjoying a

game

. I've been extremely frustrated and/or disenfranchised with this game since shortly after I replaced in, and the day 2 lynch just made me loathe it that much more. I haven't been able to get a handle on most of the players here, and that's not something that usually happens to me. So generally I've hated even opening this thread.

[AGar]

VOTE: undo

Gladly help kill this.
Absta's sudden flurry looks townish to me.
Slandaar should die sooner than later. 1281 bugs me a lot.

[AGar]

Why is no one voting Zed?

Because we're lynching from the VT pool.

Get with the program.

[AGar]

And because I am obviously town, let's not forget that.

What about Absta's last post make you think he's town?

I'm thoroughly convinced undo is scum, and I don't think there are two scumbags in the VT pool. PoE brah, PoE.

[AGar]

Oh. There wasn't a delay there or anything between when I said that and now. >_>

His engagement with you wrt me/CD pinged. Also, I never exactly had a scum read on him, ever. He just pissed me off and I was completely ok with wasting a lynch to get rid of him D2 since everyone was content with the Bella wagon which also sucked.

[AGar]

everyone was content with the Bella wagon which also sucked.

I don't remember you doing anything about it at the time. You were just arguing with me about who should provide meta which, clearly, is the person making the argument who has been asked to back their argument up. Arguing the opposite makes no sense.

This is the most effort I have put into a mafia game since probably 2010 in a single post. This was Day 2, in an effort to divert the wagon away from Bella. So kindly fuck yourself. Also, no. Again. No.

God I can't wait until tomorrow after Nati vigs your ass into oblivion.

Don't let me down Nati. Don't let me down.

[AGar]

Zdenek should probably say who he's blocking in the case that absta is scum. a kill going through despite his block would clear that person in that case.

And if, as is more than likely, Absta is town, you're just telling the scum who should send the kill to ensure that they don't have to worry about Zed being a factor.

[AGar]

Yes, misunderstood. Makes more sense now.

[AGar]

We should still lynch undo.

[AGar]

Can you walk me through your undo is scum case?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p5815372

Update is minor, mainly that he's willing to swing to whichever wagon he can get today, while not actually sticking to any kind of hard read.

[AGar]

Agar, could you pick 2-3 points from your case that you think are best and tell me about why you think they are bad?
Because there are a bunch of things in there that don't really seem relevant.

No. Not going to discredit my own case for you. There are probably things I could build upon but honestly I can't bother to give a shit anymore. This town is fucking itself by lynching absta over undo and no one seems to care. Literally everyone seems content to glaze over undo and just pretend he doesn't exist.

[AGar]

I'm not asking you to discredit your case. I just don't buy most of it and I want you to pick out a couple of things rather than go through and arguing over it.

- Don't buy most of it.
- Don't want to go through most of it.

Riiiiiiiiighte-o

[AGar]

VOTE: Absta

GFG?

[AGar]

Slandaar claimed neighborizer.
Absta claimed VT, neighborized with Slandaar.

Like it doesn't get more clear cut than that?

[AGar]

That was a really dumb claim >_>

[AGar]

3 minutes if you end it at the hammer.

[AGar]

3 minutes if you end it at the hammer.

the thread was locked for a bit after the post was written, so it might be more like 2 minutes.

True.

[AGar]

Wow wtf did you do man. Why lynch me so fast?

Anyway, game was good.

Slandaar claiming neighborizer, neighbors with you, you verifying that and then him flipping encryptor kinda made it easy.

[AGar]

It was a really good claim I just didn't put the effort in required to make it work mainly because Absta looked nailed on to be lynched.

No amount of effort would have undone the fact that the moment you got shot or lynched, it immediately gave up your partner - you do realize that, right?

[AGar]

Here's the problem you're not seeing - If you die Absta gets turbolynched because you don't flip Neighborizer and he corroborated that. If absta dies, you probably get lynched pretty forcefully as well because a goon corroborated your story and you weren't a bastion of town play this game (not that I was, either, but I'm not scum hinging on a claim in this situation). Like I don't see a situation where we lynch Absta, he flips goon, and I don't immediately push for your death, nor do I see a situation where the town says "Nah, we'll lynch someone else."