Mini 1569: The Golden Cookie Heist! -End-

[HearTheLightning]

VOTE: SiX
Policy lynch

The only real way to play this game.
- - - - -

That vote looks bad for you. I don't think you should make that vote.

vote: Slandaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar

I don't know if I like this reasoning.

unvote; vote: mnemonicdevice

Policy lynches are garbage.

Don't worry guys- I've found the scum.
- - - - -
Also, salutary greetings to everyone.

[HearTheLightning]

- Beli
- baezu
- gin
- baezu

Pardon?

That's the person who wrote each of those respective posts.
The hydra account consists of Beli, Gin, and Baezu.

[HearTheLightning]

Ok, going to be really stupid here.
Why is there a hydra thing in the game. What is the point of them?
Don't they really confuse things because others can't get a proper handle on their posting style, to the detriment of the game?
This is my first game with one you see.

They can get confusing, especially when the heads are severely different players. I would generally consider them a slight disadvantage to Town, but that doesn't make the hydra itself necessarily scummy. If people have fun playing in hydras, and the hydra is allowed, then you should let them have their fun, tbh.

Hydras make me

I just treat them like a non-confirmed Mason-Lover group with only one vote, but I guess that's a bit tautological.
---
I do fear that we're forgetting that one of the mafia has already claimed as mafia. Bjc, if you could be so kind, do tell us what the rest of your team is.

[HearTheLightning]

why has bjc claimed mafia?

He hasn't, I'm just being a little sarcastic over the fact that I think that the posts from him that I quoted back in post 17 seemed suspicious. Arbitrarily saying that "Policy Lynches are garbage" seems like absentminded firestarter. Also his immediate reaction to me seemed overexcited. It looks like a pseudo-calculated start. The three posts in a row especially like he's trying to correct a mistake that he made, and generally speaking, as Town there's no reason to police your own opinions. That being said I could just me misreading that fact that he was perhaps posting as he was reading the thread, as opposed to finishing the thread then posting comments. I've done it before.

Also the title under his name says "Mafia Scum," so we gottem boys. ;^)

[HearTheLightning]

I do fear that we're forgetting that one of the mafia has already claimed as mafia. Bjc, if you could be so kind, do tell us what the rest of your team is.

Elyse and Kush.

Thanks :^)

He hasn't, I'm just being a little sarcastic over the fact that I think that the posts from him that I quoted back in post 17 seemed suspicious. Arbitrarily saying that "Policy Lynches are garbage" seems like absentminded firestarter. Also his immediate reaction to me seemed overexcited. It looks like a pseudo-calculated start. The three posts in a row especially like he's trying to correct a mistake that he made, and generally speaking, as Town there's no reason to police your own opinions. That being said I could just me misreading that fact that he was perhaps posting as he was reading the thread, as opposed to finishing the thread then posting comments. I've done it before.

Hmm...

1. What errors am I possibly trying to correct?
2. Do you believe policy-lynches are a

good

thing? If so, why?
3. Was it really arbitrarily?

1. To answer your question, let's live in the world of you being a paranoid scum player, temporarily. As such, if it was an error, I think it would most likely be you trying to not buddy so obviously with mnemonicdevice as a scumpartner. Since your post came only a minute after mnemonic's, you would try your absolute best to distance yourself from your partner- especially on opening day randomwagons, and as such you immediately regretted your decision, quickly distanced yourself, and then tried to vote him to relieve stress on yourself. The series of posts, especially with the follow-up to my initial Post 17 simply seemed like someone who was super eager and then realized that they did something really bad.

2. I think there are occasions where they are optimal. In day-before lylo scenarios, I think lynching extreme lurkers (emphasis on extreme) is often necessary if you can't rely on them to improve by the next in game day. The occasions concerning which I get behind a policy lynch are far and few between. That being said, I have no problem with the factual content of your post, but rather the reasons for your saying it. Similar to topic 1.), I think the context of your post was interesting. In such an early part of the game, generally speaking, first post comments are throw away or humorous, at least until further content is procured. I'm fairly certain Elyse wasn't trying to actually push for a policy lynch. Your response seemed just very pointed for day 1 D1 town play.

3. In reconsideration, 'arbitrary' was a terrible choice of words- as I stated in 2.), I feel that it was more so unnecessarily

pointed.

He hasn't, I'm just being a little sarcastic over the fact that I think that the posts from him that I quoted back in post 17 seemed suspicious.

Why do you feel the need to clarify being sarcastic? Why not run off with the sarcasm and try to provoke a reaction out of possible buddies of mine?

As a player I'm not against making plays, but I always try to prioritize positive, clear communication between players foremost. Even if they're scum, getting into fist fights over whether or not I was being sarcastic 9 pages ago just makes for incredibly unhealthy next-day gameplay. I always want people to understand WHAT I'm saying. Mafia should be about the WHY. If we're running in circles about whether I'm lying about my original tone of voice, we most definitely are not going to be getting productive reads. Secondarily because I don't care about reads on him as of now. I wanted this discussion to be able to get a follow-up read on you after your interesting stream of posts. It is most important, in my opinion to get reads on the most vocal members of the game, because those are the people who lead wagons. As of now that's you and myself.
- - - - - -
Side note: If anyone is morally against long posts I can shorten mine.

[HearTheLightning]

Any reason why some of you haven't voted?

because rvs is dumb?

Then add content.

I have nothing to add. This game isn't going anywhere and I have no reason to move my vote

Circular logic. We only get out of RVS by producing content. If you have nothing to add to the game until other people start talking then you're functionally lurking.

I mean if people

really

have the mindset of, "RVS is dumb why should I participate in discussion, friendly or not, and/or vote someone?" then how the hell would we move out of RVS?

Another question: if I just randomly say "RVS is over!" does that change anything? Because in my opinion, RVS has ended.

Everything I have to say on the matter.
- - - - - - -
I dont usually vote early because I use my vote to either lynch people or to pressure them, and imo, votes within the first few D1 days don't do much unless you get a coincidental bandwagon.

That being said, bjc, you seem to have become the most productive whip in the game, which is why I'm not voting for you.
- - - - - - -
I want kushm4sta and geraintm to give their reads on myself and bjc. You both are saying that nothing has happened, but there was a fairly long conversation between the both of us. That is content. Please comment on it.
- - - - - - -
Also, My Milked Eek is pretty obviously town.
VOTE: kushm4sta

[HearTheLightning]

I would like to comment more about bjc,but it would involve a game that Is still going on for my tiny reads on him. Him voting me for my random voting though, well just.... I thought I have had it all with my random voting method.

Then what about kushmasta? Are you bothered that so few people have been active in the game so far? Am I trying to manipulate town by being so vocal?

Only YOU can stop RVS!

[HearTheLightning]

Here is our current reads list:

Thank you. Legitimately.

HTL: we feel he is taking advantage of things that were said as jokes to make a case. The case is bollocks and feels to us like a scum motivated maneuver. Also, how the fuck did you get that milked is town?! Is this some kind of a joke? milked will be addressed below but we don't understand that statement at all. Also, which part of bjc's post did you read as him backing off and changing tactics? Again, I think you're grasping at straws to make a case and we don't see the town motivation in that ->scum

1. Concerning Milk: I'm obviously not certain since this is page 3- but

We need more votes on kushm4sta.

We need more votes on kushm4sta.

Seems like a string of posts that Scum wouldn't care to do. It looks a bit aggressive, and generally speaking the scum that I have played with are careful concerning their D1 openings. It just sounds too bold to be scum. That being said, I haven't played with a single player in this game, so I'm not going to be able to make statements concerning their play style. Doing techniques like quote dropping your own posts is a really easy way to have the town re-evaluate your statement, and I think it's something that confident town players pull very often.

2. When you say backing off, I assume you're referring to when I said he was trying to "unbuddy himself" with a theoretical partner mnemonic. I am referring to the String of posts 12-14, 16, and 18. 12 would be the theoretical "mistake" in that he ended up voting the same as his "partner," then realized this, used the next two posts to distance himself from mnemonic, and pointedly criticizes Elyse's RVS post, and then backlashes against my post immediately afterwards. The series of posts seemed like anxious scum play that was trying to be "very town," and the post at me seemed just like a gut omgus out of fear that his mistake had been noticed.
This all being said, however, in Post 62, I clearly stated that I'm reading bjc fairly confidently as Town.

What I found interesting is that you said I was making a case, and tell me if I'm wrong, but I interpreted that as "HTL making a case on bjc." I am not pushing anything on bjc, based on our interactions I am confident enough to call him Town. Are the straws that I am grasping at in reference to bjc, because I have no mind to push a wagon on him. As of now, I want information out of kushmasta and geraintm. If I had to pick two mafia, it would be them.

Geraintm- if I am not mistaken, they're not saying you're anti-town for not changing your vote, but rather for not contributing reads/statements of in-game importance.

[HearTheLightning]

Unless I'm being really stupid, GIN IS IN REFERENCE TO THE DRINK AND NOT A THIRD ACCOUNT.

Yeah, I was just being a sarcastic asshole :U (If anyone isn't sure if I'm being sarcastic just ask)

@HTL
Why do you think bjc is town from your interactions? I was with you until you said that, but it makes me question my read on you. :/ It seems like you going for that until people started calling you scum.

1.) The problem I had with him was that he seemed rash, especially since he immediately contradicted his previous vote. It seemed like a "whoops I would have edited out that vote if I could but that'd be cheating" type of thing. Imo, patient scum that get caught answer slowly and precisely. Rash mafia players that get caught tend to be more defensive and emotionally charged (not even angry, but just focused on the absurdity of their accuser). Since I was accusing bjc on the basis of being rash mafia, when his response was well structured and logical, it made me rethink. His immediate response was to ask me questions about my accusation on him. That is a very *not* defensive move, and mafioso who make rash errors tend to over-justify their actions. His calm response definitely makes me think that either he quickly composed himself and is playing a solid game as mafia, or that his posts(12-14, etc.) in fact *were* consistent game play for him, and he just doesn't have many issues with quickly changing his opinions. His quick responses to myself, as well as quips such as:

It's really inappropriate that you smoke weed.

seem to lend to this explanation. Hence, I'm seeing him as town.

2.) I didn't change my opinion after getting flak- my reversed opinion on bjc can be seen in Post 62 (Whip referring to the political role in Congress that gets people to participate). I was essentially calling him town. Between post 48 (My initial accusation) and 62 the only person to criticize me was bjc: calling a mafia team of mnemonic and myself, as well as saying he was curious as to why I wasn't voting him. During this period of time I remained at 0 Votes. Neither of those statement were really "pressure." The only pressure I got was from Slainte in Post 71, which was later.

it's really inappropriate how you have a curse word in your sig

If it is a serious concern you could PM the mod and ask for bjc to hide his signature. This isn't incredibly relevant to the discussions at hand, and with Slainte's contributions you're doing nothing more than active lurking.

[HearTheLightning]

Apologies for lack of content yesterday. Exams are coming up and there will be singular days where I wont be able to post, but I'll try to keep it to a maximum of 24 hours of inactivity. This is a BS post to say that I'll be posting my actual comments in a few hours.

[HearTheLightning]

Incredibly sorry- I'm currently reading/writing up a post.

[HearTheLightning]

Bjc continues to smell town to me. As SiX put it, he's far too courageous to be playing scum. I agree that the inconsistency that bjc put out isn't amazing, but I think that the carefree-ness of his posts only serves as additional proof. If it ends up that he has the same inconsistencies 4 more times in the game, then I'm definitely gonna look at it differently, but not now.

Yeah, Ger's been verbal about how he can't contribute day 1, but in doing so he has provided a certain amount of "content." I don't like what he's doing but at least he is communicating with the town. Kushmasta on the other hand, is religiously dedicated to making posts that contain no more than 13 words of his own. Ger is at least incredibly open. I have no idea what to think of Kush, which only serves scum players. Ger, I know how he talks, and I know how he thinks concerning D1. I think either would be a fine lynch for the day, but I dont /want/ Kush in this game anymore, whereas I am fine with playing more with Ger.

I think Milked Eek continues to exclusively display town behavior. I do not think Slainte is quite as scum as he thinks he is, but because of his play, I'd be fine lynching his targets. Better to have town leading lynches than questionables.

At this point, I'd take a lynch on Kush, Ger, or Slainte, but I would be most reluctant to participate on the Ger lynch.
---

For a mafia I find Bjc too uncautious with his replies. I also don't think he's a power role. When I'm at least mafia or a PR I tend to be standing in the 'back' lurking which is of course, obvious. But as a vanilla townie I'm prepared to be in the fronth without worrying about dying, since I can allow myself to be more oustanding. I'm reading Bjc the same way, although when he tries to be active as mafia he's usually far-slipping (Looking 'Ok' early, once partner is lynched he's caught) so in eitherway I'd prepare not to lynch him today for the people suspecting him.

Edit:

But it's also rather weird that you come to me of all people asking for my reads. I have done nothing at all to look town except my trash posts that I abstained from making as a mafia.
I sort of feel like you're 'looking down' at me, expecting a possible town-buddy on me.

Elyse, While I think I've a somewhat clue of where she stands it's too early to define it. But the way she plays may be found in what I listed above.

I really like your read on bjc- Mafia would be more ready to call him irresponsible and therefore scum. I really like your hesitance to be pocketed. I really dislike your poking around for the Power Roles. That is neither here nor there for Townies, especially on D1.

sthar8- why are you interested in me and Ger first- do you think we're possible partners with Milked Eek?

If I have a single ounce of creed with town in me, then I want to formally use it to announce that we're going to get nowhere with the bjc/Elyse conversation. I think all discussion about those two is going to have to wait until D2 to be really all that productive. It'd be far better to have talks about other people. I have a question for everyone who think bjc is scum:

Do you think that none of his behavior is evident of his play style as opposed to role?

---
I've played something like 8 games on this site, around 20-30 on other sites of this style.
--
Pour le bon homme, Monsieur bjc:
tl;dr you're town, so is milk, please stop arguing with Elyse, lets lynch ger, kush, or slainte.

[HearTheLightning]

But, ger is being legitimately anti-town and you're being cagey, possibly obtuse and giving a lot of IioA. Ger's attitude could be indicative of scum, or it could be inexperience that's keeping him from advancing the gamestate. You might be scum trying to look helpful, or you might just be leaking overenthusiastic newbie on the thread. I'm meta-ing you both right now but I'm not particularly good at cold meta and I was hoping somebody wanted to reason it out with me.

As a player I always err towards information dumps. I observe what people do then develop opinions off of larger platters of evidence. I don't stress understanding people's motivation, as to me the greater concern is what the town ends up actually seeing. As for the "overenthusiatic newbie," I take particular insult- I always run my mouth, and have for the 8 or so years that I've played the game. It's not that I'm eager to get through the door, but rather that I prioritize making myself readable and well-known to the town. If people can read me then the town's better off as a whole.

When you say cagey/obtuse, are you referring to the questions I pose, similar to this one? You said you wanted to talk more about me, but you haven't actually asked me any questions. If there are things that I am hiding from the town, feel free to pin me for them. Follow-up question: How easy do you think it would have been to get me lynched, since you're calling me low-hanging fruit. Aren't ger and kush about as lynchable as it gets? In my opinion wagonriding would be far more optimal on them.
- - - - - - -
Kushmasta's neck continues to look perfectly sized for a rope. I really don't see any point in him staying alive. There's no contribution and he could pull any "trick" out of his sleeve d2/3 as an excuse for why he did literally nothing.

It isn't greats logic, but I am very unlikely to see enough today for me to go past this prejudice. I am sure there are tons of counter examples, but meh....

I really don't like the tone of this. Defeating your own reasoning but saying you wont get over it is just inb4'ing, and people who have guilty consciences love to do that from my experience.

So as soon as I move my vote off of you, you comment on it?

How is that hard to understand? Your vote on me was townie. Your vote on Pim was scummy.

One was a vote on an engaged hydra in which both heads are known to prefer scum. Some degree of paranoia is apposite. Your second vote was on a lynchbait slot post replacement, when it's at its most vulnerable. I see this as scum seeing a likely mislynch slipping away and trying to salvage it before it's too late.

So go, gentle herald, and come no more for OMGUS. You shall have none I swear but these my joints which, as I leaveth them shall yield you little.

Despite the imperfect punctuation and quotation, I strongly approve of any references to Hank Five. I don't think anyone can actually win town points quite so economically as you just have. Joking aside, I do like how in this and the next post I've quoted how the tone remains standard, despite being asked similar questions.

@Gin from SM. I forgot to ask in my last post: can you tell what you think of the reasons why Eek voted you?

I already said Eek's vote on me looked townie, which is why I didn't address it. I was fine with it. This is Mafia, people are going to vote me. If they

don't

, something is very wrong, and I'll be NK'd N1 and don't get to play the game very long.

He did miss the obvious a bit, though. What's the one thing all hydras have?

Although there's a disturbing lack of Elizabethan references, I do like the re-iteration of your statement.

I would argue, Pim, that the reason I was more wishywashy in 1054 was because I had actually difficulties getting reads on Wolf, or whatever his name was that I ended up voting for D1. He looked genuinely scummy to me, as a player who knew that he was town. I try to play as much as a VT as physically possible in my games as Mafia- it makes me a lot less opportunistic. Also, I've been in a rather short micro game. I'd grab links to other games I've played but most of the forums I played on have been deleted and I'd have to grab the 2008 data records and I kind of don't want to do that.

[HearTheLightning]

I apologize for any offense, none was intended. Newbies frequently express excitement through verbosity and have a hard time taking solid stances. Why are you prioritizing your appearance over the finding an lynching of scum?

I wasn't actually all that insulted- I just never like when people play the noob card, especially if it's not in a Newbie game, and even there I think it's a topic to not discussion worthy except for specific scenarios. I feel like the accusation is used more so as disguised ad hominem to discredit the players relevance in the game.
To avoid a conversation that I really enjoy having that is a lot of metagame theory- every townie's endgame goal is to lynch mafia, but many people go about it in different ways. Each of the follow attributes when tied to a townie aid them in lynching mafia: Appearing townie to other town, being able to lead town, being able to find mafia, being able to find town, being able to find power roles (but usually outing them is a terrible thing), being able to attract bullets as VT, good skills when Cop, etc. Even if you're terrible at finding mafia, if you can show yourself as an incredibly obvious townie and lead the town well enough that they accept your lynches over less confirmed players, you're essentially removing influence of (possible) mafia players, even if you aren't actively hunting mafia that well.
I consider my better traits to be finding town and presenting myself as a townie, hence why I stressed my town reads at the beginning of the game, as well as my long posts. Mafia's a bit of a vanity game for me, I admit.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cagey
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... 1398570273, 2b

I understand what the words mean- I'm asking in what scenarios would you describe me as cagey and/or obtuse. If me asking these exact questions is what you're referring to, then I provide the counterpoint that I do so for a clear understanding of a person's projected intent. As I discussed earlier, I don't want sarcasm or odd wording to get people tied up on misinterpretations. A lot of times I already have answers to the questions I ask, and I want to see if our opinions match up.

When I need your opinion, I'll ask. Your opinion on your own play is redundant at best, and self-meta is worse than useless. I want to talk more about you

with other players

, so that I can develop a strong read.

Difference in ideology here me to misinterpreting you. If I want to learn more about Player X I generally ask them their opinions about other people. I assumed you wanted the same, so that's my bad.

Incredibly. There's plenty of lazy town here, and if I were scum I'd be counting on their aversion to wordy posts. I've seen it before. Hell, it's been done to me before.

(Your words- they scald me) Interesting. I don't think I've ever actually been lynched on D1, and the vast majority of my deaths have been by way of night actions, so I find that to be a pretty interesting comment. I don't usually find myself staring down the barrel of a L0 threat.

[HearTheLightning]

Sorry guys- my finals have just started and I had two programs that I had to finish coding before midnight... it got interesting.

It just ended, though, so: SHAZAM!

You do the good man's work. Also, you're expecting to have the punctuation memorized, silly ; )
- - - - -
My town view on bjc has been getting slightly weaker as of late, but I think that's mostly because we've had differing opinions for a bit- I wouldn't really call it him playing worse.

kush is a horrible wagon.

Why? Just for the sake of the situation, let's assume that ger and kush are the same alignment. If we lynch Ger today, we have no means of actually talking about kush in a way that can inform us about whether we should lynch him or not. However, if we lynch kush, tomorrow we still have Ger's rather large body of material, as well as what he will say on D2. If the game keeps rolling as it is, I am relatively confident of the fact that Ger and Kush are going to eventually get lynched. Generally speaking, for any Day X, Day X+1's lynch has a better chance of hitting mafia due to more posts, and a hopefully better informed town. That being said, this only happens if the people who get thrown up for a lynch actually have material to discuss. Kush has none. As a tendency, D1 lynches are pretty non-accurate. IMO, it is better to use the D1 lynch on Kush than to use it on Ger. Ger, while still scummy, and more so actively lurking (That being said the torrent of responses he just made is kind of refreshing) compared to kush's passive lurking, can actually be analyzed and discussed. A d@ wagon on Ger will be better informed than a D1 wagon on Ger, whereas a D2 wagon on Kush is NOT going to be better informed than a D1 wagon on him.
I know that Ger has been more insistent about digging his hole, but the dirt he's tossing out of the hole is at least stuff to be examined. Kush is just kind of sitting on his shovel.
Also, post D1 lynches on lurkers turns into just the most horrendously WIFOM-based pissing arguments, and I really, really, really cannot stand arguments that rest on the ground of WIFOM. Doubt is fine, but at a certain point, people who don't provide content shouldn't be in the game.
- - - - - -
Can we stop talking about our collective inabilities to make reads on D1? SiX and Ger have been sitting on that same idea for so long, and both of them have thoroughly stated how the cant grab reads on D1. Whether they're lying or not, you're not going to get anything else out of them on the subject. It would be really great if we started talking about other stuff, like Ger's stream of conscious responses.

[HearTheLightning]

In short you advocate Policy Lynches on D1.

I'm not huge on this vonflare wagon. I'll get more detailed about why tomorrow, but this lynch is coming up incredibly fast, I would would prefer a lynch on Ger

VOTE: Geraintm

[HearTheLightning]

UNVOTE:

INTENT TO HAMMER

Claim please vonflare.

I can wait 2 hours max - then I'm going to bed (it's nearly midnight)
If anybody else wants to wait longer let me know and I'll leave it to you

I can fill your hammer past the two hour. I really would prefer the Ger lynch at this point, but feel free to go to bed- I'll be here until the minute of the Day, and I will hammer vonflare if I have to. If the day goes a no lynch because of my inaction, just quick lynch me tomorrow.

[HearTheLightning]

I was going to ideologically wait until vonflare claims.

[HearTheLightning]

I am correct in saying that from the current time that there is a bit over four hours remaining? So long as the counter that I see in the mod's posts are correct, I'll be sure to drop it before we NL.

[HearTheLightning]

Whatever, the claim isn't happening. I'll hammer.

I apologize for the completely terrible last few days out of me. I'll try to come back tomorrow with actual material.

VOTE: VONFLARE TO HAMMER.

Good luck and may our rope have found a worthy neck.

I am innocent of the blood of this just person; see ye to it.

[HearTheLightning]

Why are we still okay with kushmasta's play?

[HearTheLightning]

Ok- I really hate what I've done this game. I just got back from my plane ride home so I have a ton of time to play now- I'm gonna be far more active starting tomorrow.
Kush- because you've said next to nothing of value or content. Why are you starting now with actual content, if only it being complaints about length.

Why are we entertaining a player who hasn't even looked at the entire thread? I would never play against someone in chess if they arent even willing to look and see where my pieces lie.

[HearTheLightning]

damn i was hoping he would flip scum then id be confirmed town.

so can anyone give me a summary of the game so far so i dont have to read everything?

This is example 1. "Shucks, I sure am annyoed that I'm not a modconfirmed town." /screams/ passive play.

It kind of pisses me off that SiX died, it totally ruins the joke I was going to make at daystart

"With 11 alive, it takes SiX to lynch..."

fuck it, it wasn't that good a joke anyways.

-Beli

It also means that we have a vig with a brain.

Six, it's nothing personal. But faking power to get a lynch is so catastrophically damaging to the town and so foolishly arrogant that it becomes correct play to policy lynch or kill anyone who would even consider it. It's gonna take some time and effort on your part to outgrow that reputation.

This feels like you have a bit too much information, to be honest. But I'm really not one to read into NKs. Too many unconvincing premises and not enough actual evidence.

Yeah he should get PL'd a lot. But he shoulda thought of that before faking power.

kush who do you think is scum?

literally no clue. Is that guy i just quoted always all douchey like that?

Example 2. He doesn't even know how the other players are playing...

Oh also I was positively reinforcing a good vig, so that he'll keep doing protown things in the future.

Or softclaiming my kill, YMMV.

There is a 100% that this post does not help town. "Guys I was encouraging our PRs to keep being awesome... or maybe I am one!" Is 1.) A selfish way to gain town creed by alligning yourself with "Good PR players" and 2.) Outright putting the possibility of you being one out there. All that does is make Town hesitant to kill you, and scum more likely to kill you, assuming you're town, which is a /terrible/ thing to do. Town should never be scared to lynch any player. They might be adverse to it due to good play from that person, but they should never feel intimidated out of doing it- which to me is exactly what this post is doing.

Never mind, I went back and iso'd you. You're town.

Just to use this post as a notice, because it felt a little weird- I am willing to consider My Milked Eek as not Town today. I still think he is, atm, but that is allowed to change, now.

if they were a chess master they could be you without looking.

This isn't massively relevant to the game, but no they cant. And no YOU cant be a useful player if you dont know the tone of each player's commentary, you don't know a list of actions done by each, etc., etc. Mastery over a subject is being more efficient with the resources given to you- not having no need of the resources given to you because of your inherent skill. Chessmasters are chessmasters because they can so economically utilize the information given to them by the current and previous states of the board. Same with Mafia. Same with DotA.
If you aren't willing to play the game then I would be absolutely terrified to see you still exist on a m/lylo. At this point, I kind of feel that his potential as scum is low-ish, but he would be a TERRIFYING deciding player to have on a lylo. I don't want to convince someone of my townhood when they haven't even read my posts.

[HearTheLightning]

Thank you, though for the patronization. NKA loses plenty of games, too. Many that I've played and/or watched/read. NKA falls under gameplay preference.

1a. You currently trust the town's judgement? I think the softing that you just did was a very lazy way to look for creed, and a very safe way, in that you could easily just call it absurd to do as scum.
2a. I do not need you to imply yourself to be the victim of indirect ad hominem. I did no such thing. What I do think you did was look for a really easy way to create hesitance in the town concerning aggressive wagons on you. WIFOM pandering is one of the biggest mistakes that grounds towns into unproductive discussion. In my opinion, that is what you attempted to introduce to the town.Softs are used to subtly imply nature of oneself as a PR, and generally they aren't even revealed/noted until the claim actually comes out, such that it implies a commitment to the PR that the player claimed. You purposefully stating it ~*/might/*~ be a soft is a way to present the material of a soft without any of he inherent benefits. All it does is provide the less decisive members of town sand to throw in the air when there are two possible lynch targets. If you're Vig and you feel the need to soft this hard then just claim. You've already drawn the attention of a possible NK.
1c. Yes, I realize seeing as I continue to be 7 years old, and all strategies concerning Mafia are far beyond my quaint understanding.
1d. Monsieur sthar, please continue to aid me in understanding this overwhelming game you call Mafia- it perplexes me so.

If you have any material you'd like to actually make known that isn't implied ad hominem, I would like to hear it. And I'm not one to usually start a wagon. If no one else is really going to show interest in my direction, then there's no point pursuing it helplessly. I'd rather have discussion on currently relevant wagons. That being said, I don't like much of the material on MME. I'll probably look at it more intently tomorrow.

If we aren't going to policy lynch on D2, then what day will we, since D1 didn't happen. Are you inclined to do a policy lynch Pre-lylo, or should we just do it on lylo instead. What day is best to policy lynch, tell me.

You've done nothing but demean my reasoning as opposed to my actual points. Unless you want to disregard my opinions based on the fact that I am assuredly a 5 year old who has just learned the basics of english and how to use the internet, I'd like actual responses that aren't "We aren't gonna do a Policy Lynch D2." Why do you consider the current lynch targets more viable than the removal of a player who has contributed an impressively minimum amount of content.

[HearTheLightning]

If I hadn't looked at meta I would have thought this was pure distraction. It still could be.
I've tried to read it three times and I can't maintain focus or concentration.(Maybe it's me that's the 5 year old.)
Can you tell me

succinctly

what you're trying to say here HTL?

HTL is saying he is in awe of Sthars understanding of the game that is kinda obvious I thought.

Thanks - I got that bit from 1d - I shouldn't have tried to read it any deeper than that.

That's precisely what I'm saying... lol.
To be succint- his replies are all non-content statements using ad hominem or vaguely implying me to be using ad hominem. He is more so emphasizing making me look stupid as opposed to proving my statements wrong. "Thanks for implying that I'm crazy," "This strategy is probably older than you," "Read this over until you realize what's wrong with it." He is using hostility as a replacement for discussion. Secondly, my original point was that there's no reason to outride say you're softing a PR in the way that he did. The usefulness of a soft is that it is subtle and can be referenced later. Here, what he did was make it obvious, and then self-reference it immediately.

Hahahaha I like it. A player can't vent frustration?

Although @HTL: why do you want to go the PL direction?

MME feels like a miss right now, and even if kush get's replaced out, we have a slot that literally has no content to talk about. If he gets replaced out and is a mafia role, we're completely screwed in that the new player essentially gets to start the game halfway into D2 with no criticisms against him. Kush is incredibly useless to the game, and I frankly, would be terrified to put anyone at L1 this game with him still alive. He doesn't seem quick to the hammer but then again I know nothing of him. No one does. We have a 9 player game in which there is a 10th vote which roles a D20 to decide where its vote goes.
At this point, I'd be fine with a sthar lynch, but to be honest I'm probably just reacting poorly to how he talks to people he disagrees with. Ger is also still fine for me. He's improved, but it's only making up lost time. I don't think any of his material has reall contributed significantly to the Town.

[HearTheLightning]

I'm currently re-reading the thread as a whole as well. I'll be posting my thoughts afterword.

[HearTheLightning]

I'm currently re-reading the thread as a whole as well. I'll be posting my thoughts afterword.

I assume you were distracted?

I usually tend to re-read threads because my long term memory is abominable, not so much because II don't pay attention. There's a reason why I'm majoring in Computer Science and not Biology, lol.

[HearTheLightning]

My re-read has mostly make me feel more condifent about Slainte as Town, and I can understand sthar's train of thought a bit better after several ISOs, but I still don't agree with his arguments. My mind is more willing to call him town, but my gut is not being quite so agreeable.

I like the current upstart on Kush. Someone else is finally noticing that he has done literally nothing.

Kush- I'd like you to give me your your two top townies.

[HearTheLightning]

bjc- Concerning the thing I was willing to explain- At the time I had a really strange feeling that slaandar had to be scum at the time and thought that he was opportunistically jumping on the wagon. I didn't mention why because I felt like it was a terrible read, and it was. I have long since abandoned it.

Also I am feeling more like sthar is probably town- mostly from his conversations about the non-mafia aspects (college age, etc., ironically). I didn't expect him to be quite so incredibly dismissive of everything in his sight. I still don't like much of his material at all- since he suddenly thinks that I'm the anti-christ after I said that I thought some of the things he said were stupid- but I do think that it's not from scum. He's not running a very productive tunnel atm.

And to be honest, to continue on it, no I don't think that lynching kush is going to be good for the game, but having him alive in Lylo is absolutely not allowed. Under any circumstance. And if we don't lynch him now, when are we ever going to lynch him? Do you really want someone who wont even read the game choosing between the final townie and mafia member in a 3-man Lylo? He's obviously not gonna get NK'd, as scum as no reason to get rid of him, and if he's scum, then he's not gonna vote himself. Sthar can say as much as he wants that cutting your losses is a terrible strategy, but Kush is someone I really, really don't want to deal with on a D3 o D4... we have /no material/ on him.

That being said, I feel like the sudden increase on Kush's wagon is super scum-opportunistic. It's less than 24 hours to end of day, and scum want an easy miss. If the Kush lynch goes through, then I would DEFINITELY look at the people on this wagon.

Yet again, if we are at L-1 and need a lynch I will be fine to switch my vote around. And sorry again for the completely abominable day. I've been so exhausted over the past few weeks, so my content has been pathetic.

[HearTheLightning]

You're assuming I'm making it to the Lylo...

In any reasonable lylo where he's alive, HE is the one deciding between who to lynch. And no I'm not leaning on him being town. I'm leaning on I don't care what he is; he is cancerous to the town's chances at victory. That being said there is a fine change he is mafia. More so than SM in my opinion.

[HearTheLightning]

I have said numeroud times that both are fine lynches. However I think in lylo, it would be EASY to lynch ger. In Lylo, Kush is the one deciding the vote, and I dont trust him to pick the correct mafia.

[HearTheLightning]

If you vote yourself I am going to stab you.

Claim.

[HearTheLightning]

I'd like to take a moment to say I told you so.
I'd also like to take a moment and say that I was completely wrong on SM, so good job on that.
I'll be posting my night comments tomorrow.

[HearTheLightning]

Sorry all, I didn't realize that the site had come back up. I'll try and re-cap as soon as possible. I'm gonna have to re-read a lot to try and get back to where I was at the start od D3.

Ger, my first post was a joke- all I had said was that kush would be a good lynch, and he was! : D

I'll try and provide a pseudo-comprehensive post tomorrow. And tbh, Elyse's comment kinda scares me, cause I think there's a certain validity in it. That being said Kush played so incredibly non-effort filled, so maybe he actually did put the entire team in his post. I'm gonna have to re-read a lot to try and solidify my opinions.

I am strongly against a mass claim at the current moment. We have at least one additional Day until a mass claim is necessary.

[HearTheLightning]

Well sthar continues to be exactly as rude as usual. On a completely out of game note it is perfectly respectable for someone to want to sub out after a five day interim where they are unable to view the thread. It's a huge momentum killer. Sorry about the inconvenience, wake.

That being said, I am pretty okay with letting the MME slot stay alive, so it is not a huge burden on my conscience at the moment.
Sthar's continued attitude concerning OOG content is only proving to be that this demeanor is just how he is, so my read on him is continually shifting townward.
I'll accept the claim that happened today, there's been no CC and the shots do seem to line up with his play style.
Ger's terrible D1 play is still really unconvincing, and he has changed his play around, but because of his D1 activity, I feel that all of his new founded pseudo-productive work has been just to simply beat back people's suspicions that arose during D1.
The other point to consider concerning him however is that I still kind of doubt that kush would put both his buddies on his list. I am only slightly bothered by this fact because kush seemed like a very lazy player and may have just put the entire scum team in his reads for funsies. A suppose the finality is that I'm open to a Ger push but I certainly feel that we should get ourselves together again about actual game content before we start wagoning.

Ger- I want to know who you think is our number one lynch. Also, you handing out who you think should die in the night would be cool as well.

[HearTheLightning]

I would strongly suggest against shooting me, though I can understand why you'd want to.

You've outed yourself as a role, and without a CC, you will either get NK'd tonight, protected, or are most likely mafia. Do you feel secure in a Slandaar, Sthar8, My Milked Elk, and Elyse town finding scum?

If Ger isn't scum, and we do have to go through another Night/Day phase do you really consider this to be the optimal group? To be honest, I'd prefer the reversal if me and Ger both have to die. Lynch me then shoot him (That being said I am not advocating for a lynch on me- but the wagon shouldn't be used on someone where their primary reason for getting lynched is "They kinda gave up on D1." I have provided plenty of material (D1 and early half of D2) for people to call me out on, as Sthar has already done. I feel like if /anything/ at least having the wagon on me would provide significant more information for the town. If you NEED to kill me, at least give me the rope, it'd be better imo.

This being said I'm at a point where the scum is 80% within Ger/Elyse/MME/Slandaar. Sthar is sounded more and more town with each progressive post, and if bjc is scum (This would require a secondarily NK mechanic that is either also mafia, or hasn't outed itself, but if that is the case then GG) then we lost.

At this point, I feel that productive wagons can be placed within myself/Sladaar/Elyse. I only leave MME out because he has replaced out of and back into this game and to be honest making a case on him is going to be gross, especially with the complete non-activity of this game (myself included).

[HearTheLightning]

There's only one person in this game who hasclaimed, Ger, and it's not you. And I wasn't providing 80% as a statistical piece of evidence, I'm just saying "I'm nearly certain that the scum is not to be found between myself, bjc, or Sthar." I was simply emphasizing my town reads.

That being said I don't really understand why my last post was terrible, so if Elyse could expound upon her reasons it'd be lovely.

[HearTheLightning]

What is this very valuable information we will gain from lynching you instead of Ger who from townyou's POV could be scum?

Essentially, everything that is currently being said about me, from you, MME, and Elyse. Ger has been criticized over and over again concerning the same points. If he were to get lynched, the case against him would essentially be "I think he did [content we already discussed on D1 and D2 in excruciating detail]" whereas a lynch on me would require NEW content that has yet to be discussed, which could possibly help town into figuring how who is mafia/who is town based on how the wagon on me turns out. I'm not a hypocrite- wagons produce content for town to use in finding scum, and wagons on me are not exempt from this.
To expand on this- each Day, to simplify, has two goals.
1. To find and lynch scum for that day.
2. To create content to be analyzed the NEXT day so as to fulfill goal #1 for the next day.
The only day where goal 2 is irrelevant is in a lylo situation where there's 1 mafia left. From a non-me/Ger perspective, we both might be scum, but a wagon on him doesn't make any content to be discussed for the next day ("Hey I think what you said about Ger was very over-eager, you might be scum!"), because it's all been said. A wagon on me would bring out new evidence, new suspicions, etc., which are all REALLY healthy for a town that is clearly running severely low on gas.

@HTL
Your post hit a lot of red flags, such as the inability to understand why someone would want to lynch you and threatening bjc by asking if he's secure with certain players finding scum.

"I would strongly suggest against shooting me, though I can understand why you'd want to." I completely understand why people would want to lynch me- I think you are misconstruing what I said. And secondly, I apologize if it came off as passive aggressive- I am literally asking him "Please double check to ensure that you are okay with a Town of {Slandaar, Sthar8, My Milked Elk, and Elyse} being able to find scum if the game doesn't end N3?" That's it. He's most likely going to be NK'd, so I am simply providing that as food for thought.

You wanting to be lynched and have Ger shot is weird and makes no sense. I think you are trying to use reverse psychology to keep yourself from being lynched. Maybe you have some role that can block bjc's kill or something.

If you're paranoid about my intentions I'm going to have no way to convince you otherwise. I am not trying to save myself from being lynched, I am trying to better the town for the condition that the game does not end by N3. For the other half of your statement- are you really considering that both myself and Ger are scum? First off- check the list of standard roles, which one allows me to save Ger from a NK after I've been lynched? Secondarily if I'm scum there'd be no reason to protect him if he's town, and if he was scum and I was town, I really wouldn't want to protect him, cause I think there's an above average chance of hitting properly on him. This is a really unfounded paranoia, even if I am scum.

Then you say you are "80% sure" scum is within four players, only ruling out yourself, bjc, and sthar which literally means nothing.

I don't understand why a wagon on MME or Ger wouldn't be productive. If it's because it's hard to produce a case on them because of lack of content, isn't that reason enough?

I apologize for my wording- I suppose it would have been better to have said "There is an above average chance of hitting scum within this pool of players than there is in the remaining pool of players." I just hate giving out objective statements about how there's a "100% that there's scum between these people."

And next, yet again, it is not that there's no content to be made concerning Ger, it's that there's next to no NEW content (Not from him, but about him) he's said a lot, but the only things people hate about him are his D1 and D2 play, so any wagon on him would just be beating a dead horse- as such a NK on him would be better since it doesn't waste important discussion time within the town. As for MME, it's not that he has no content, it's that the content is in a very weird situation given that there have been two replacements on that specific slot- despite one being the original. He has had a huge interim and can kind of be excused for lack of content after getting back into the game. A wagon on him would be kinda spotty, and I still maintain my town read on the role regardless, so I feel that a wagon would be wasted there.
---
I believe that's covered everything.

[HearTheLightning]

I don't think you and Ger are scum together. I said that your strange acquiescence with being lynched makes me think you are trying to use reverse psychology to NOT be lynched. I know it sounds far fetched but I wouldn't expect you to lie down like a doormat and almost advocate for your own lynch.

I'm not "lying down"- as I said, if me and Ger are the two to die, it is better to at least generate discussion around me as opposed to yawning for 11 days then instalynching him. The conversations we are having right now would not be happening if Ger was the one to be wagoned on. I would *highly* prefer that I not die this D/N phase, but if I am dying either way, then town gains more information this way.

Narrowing down a pool of seven players to four scumspects (taking out yourself and an un CC'd PR as two of your three townreads) means pretty much nothing. Saying that scum is most likely in there is like saying there are most likely clouds in the sky. It's an easy way to make it look like you are trying to scum hunt when really, you left all attainable lynches open except for sthar.

Lastly, your theory about lynching active players with content makes no sense and promotes lurking.

Whatever, I have weak reads, and I understand that. I doesn't promote lurking it promotes shooting lurkers at night. He dies either way, it's really simple. "Promotes lurking" is an absurd thing to be said about me when literally for the first 2 Days my primary lynch was a lurker who had been producing little to no content.

It is not "lynch active players who have content." We have choice A and choice B. Choice A and Choice B are both going to die. Choice A has been talked about and re-discussed time and time again. Choice B has not. We have two tools of execution, both of with will be used, each on one of Choice A and B. The first execution tool requires town collaboration and effort/wagoning. This tool requires discussion and dedication as a whole to be able to commit behind. As such, it should always be used in a way such that the discussed material helps bring more "knowledge to the table" so-to-speak. Since Choice A has been talked about a ton it is better to use this tool to focus on Choice B. Talking about Choice B allows the town to gain new perspectives on how outed scum interacted with Choice B, how outed town interacted with Choice B, etc. Attention being brought to these details can possibly help town in locating scum. None of these benefits happen if this execution tool is used on Choice A, since it has *already been discussed.* Luckily, the second execution tool requires no collaboration, and since Choice A has already been discussed in detail, the secondary execution tool can be used to simply remove them from the map of the game. This is the most efficient way of killing both Choice A and Choice B given the two execution tools provided.


"Lynch players with content" is not the cause for my reference, it is a coincidental happenstance. What I am saying is "Lynch the person who has been discussed less." If I was the lurker and he was the one heavy with content (Which is kind of true, to be honest- at this point Ger has talked about way more things than I have), I would still prefer it this way. NK people that the town can't decide on/have been discussed a ton yet someone avoided lynches, and use the actual lynch on people who are still considered scummy but haven't been talked about. Lynches/wagons are tools not only to kill people but to also bring attention to facts, details, etc., that can be used for future lynches.

[HearTheLightning]

Odd-Day Role Cop

N1 I found Slainte to be vanilla

[HearTheLightning]

I don't believe you. Why would you be all sacrificial and willing to be lynched as a PR?

Yet again- I haven't been, but it has been made very clear to me that both myself and Ger are dying in this D/N phase. I have had far too many personal issues over these last two in-game days to be able to provide well structured reasons as to why I am town, so it is simply easier for me to posture the town in such a way that the lynch/NK are done in the way which benefits town most.

What is your exact role in your PM

Town Odd-Night Role Cop, as I nearly said paraphrasing.

HTL crumbs? Any reason I should believe you?

I don't drop crumbs. It's incredibly easy for a scum player to posture themselves in expectation of claiming as one or even several roles, and hiding "hints" in numerous posts- they prove next to nothing. I find that upon review of my posts that I should be found to be a player who played very much so a "control" game where I was more preoccupied with appearing midrange-ish as a not super-town, but not incredibly scummy. Unfortunately, the only gameplay that I can link my behavior to is the Slainte check N1. The fact that upon the later days of D1, I began including SM in my lynchable selection should in itself provide a small amount of verification. My reasoning was that he seemed to be playing like either a mafia role blocker or doctor. In my opinion a lot of his analysis looked slightly PR oriented. I was, however, wrong, and having found him vanilla, I found it easier to believe him to be vanilla town than vanilla scum. That's also why I dropped my suspicion of him D2.

Otherwise, I find myself to have played a relatively decent game. I was incredibly lazy D2 and D3, but I think I have ample excuse for it, which is neither her nor there in terms of relevance to this specific game. That being said, I'm also vaguely martyring myself because I have at most one more check, and it runs vanilla on goons, so I don't even consider myself much of a "PR" at this point.

[HearTheLightning]

Early claiming generally is viewed incredibly negatively.

[HearTheLightning]

I have no qualms with the idea that myself and slaan have soft cop roles. The game set-up might be balanced for having one actual cop, so to put in two gimped cops makes perfect sense design wise. I don't feel that your claim and my own cannot coexist.

That being said I don't like that we've shifted from me and ger to me and slaan. I'm leaning towards belief on slaan, regardless of my own role, and feel that Ger or MME are probably our scum by this turn of events. I'd vote for either of them to be shot at night if I am to be lynched, which of course, I continue to not be for.

[HearTheLightning]

Also, as a late note, the reason why I was strongly opposed to a mass claim was so that this type of paranoia didn't spring up. Myself having a really weak info. role, I was under the assumption that there was probably more than one info roles in the game, and that this form of "CCing" would happen.