Mini 1596: Minimence I Game Over!!!

[RedCoyote]

Slandaar, were you the player that used to have the Christoph Waltz avatar, or am I thinking of someone else?

VOTE: Riabi because I agree with Elyse. Riabi, get an avatar. If you don't know what to get, just type your username in Google or something, lol.

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE: Riabi; VOTE: kushm4sta

What a strange comment to make toward Riabi. It reads like coaching to me.

Also, kush, if you have avatars disabled, why do you have one?

Also also, I like you avatar even though I don't quite know what's going on, lol.

[RedCoyote]

I don't read it as antagonistic in the slightest, but you're kind of giving him an "'atta boy", imo.

Like, "don't let these guys bully you, you can have an avatar or not". It just seems like a pretense for you to encourage him or give him positive reinforcement. Also, it was strange for you to butt in when you did as Riabi hasn't even posted yet, much less given an opinion on what Elyse or myself had said.

Like I said, strange.

[RedCoyote]

...is trying to hunt scum not the point of the game?

What threshold must we hit before a player is allowed to ask questions or make arguments, Espresso?

[RedCoyote]

I mean, I'm lolling at your passive aggressiveness.

"Trying to start something?"

Yeah, Espresso; I'm a troublemaker. Absolutely I want to start something. I want to start lynching scum, how about you?

[RedCoyote]

It's a rhetorical question. At least, I hoped it would be!

[RedCoyote]

acryon's 45 is on point.

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No rc is really not townish

Care to actually explain any of these reads you're giving us? I take it you agree with Espresso that it's anti-town and/or scummy of me to try and end RVS "too early"?

---

your latest post sounds VERY OFF and makes it seem like your attemtping to fake-town cred.

Really? That's the best you can come up with? I like how you put it in all caps as thought that would make it more believable. Scoring town cred with whom? acryon? I mean, first off, why are you assuming acryon is town, as this post seems to imply? Second, can you justify that extreme of a reaction?

Wow. In all honesty I completely misread elyse's post

my bad

Eh, so were you going to leave your vote on her then?

---

There is less than three pages on this game. No one has really made a 'substantive post'. There have been plenty of 'no purpose' posts in this game. When I get some major reads, I'll let you know, mmmmkay? Sound good? What's gucci, yo.

I agree with this. It's also funny. Good start, Boon. I was a little worried about you coming into this game, but I like you so far.

---

2gucci4youcci

---

Acryon is saying Espressojet was suspicious because RC was

starting something too early.

Although this has been pointed out a couple of times already:

Trying to start something before page 1 even ends?

---

FWIW I still think shes the *scummiest* so far

I don't like this...

UNVOTE: kushm4sta; VOTE: hiplop

You keep going back and forth. First you said Elyse's post was "VERY OFF" and her trying to get fake town-cred from a player that isn't you. Then you said you misread it completely. Now you're backtracking again and saying that, yes, she was "buddying acryon" and her post was "forced".

I think you're just making this up as you go along, frankly.

[RedCoyote]

Well, that's a good start. Join me on hiplop and I'll like you even more.

Howdy, Candice. Glad to have you.

[RedCoyote]

-> RC is wrong.
-> Espresso shouldn't call RC out because RC was just trying to generate discussion.

Clearly there is something wrong here.

I'm glad you made this post, Slandaar, because it seems sincere. I disagree with you, but I think this is a reasonable argument to make against acryon.

---

for my sanity I will UNVOTE: lol

Wait, let me get this straight. So your response to my accusation of you flip-flopping was to flip-flop again?!

Mamma mia!

---

Sorry this took so long- especially with it being just 4 pages long.

I can't get much of a read on anyone so far. It seems like the issue with Riabi's avatar, RC, and Espresso was much ado about nothing and I'm just not seeing where acryon is being trying to be too townie. I don't see him as trying to explain the game to anyone so much as explaining his own actions and motives. It's really striking me as a playstyle thing and nothing more.

I just straight-up don't know what to think of Bob or RubikAshtray yet.

hiplop, can you give an example of what's bugging you about acryon's posts and why? I'm really confused about this.

Huh. This is kind of a bad post. Kind of really bad. Maybe it's just a fluke, so I'll give him another shot...

---

I'm still v/la

the players I read as scum don't seem to try and figure things out or seem to be hiding something or just strike me as odd

Bob ignores me counter: 1

Let's see how high it can go before he notices it.

[RedCoyote]

Candice's 103 is much better. I mean, granted, we see eye-to-eye on a lot of stuff, but I just like that Candice is actually giving reads and he's stating why he has those reads (as opposed to earlier when it was just "can't get a read on anyone"). In a perfect world, we would've seen a vote somewhere, but I can live with this for now.

---

RC as weird as it is, yes. I was clearly misguided and a complete-relook at the game is required on my point. I was off on elyse and I need to open my mind (I've noticed my biggest weakness since coming back is non-stop tunnel vision and this is a step to stop that.)

Honestly, hiplop, and I'm not even exaggerating when I say this: I don't know what this means. I literally do not know where your mind is on Elyse. You've went back and forth at least four times now, so I'm guessing she's... back to null?

I feel kind of bad for you in the sense that I could twist this in such a way that you're just trying too hard as town as you're coming back to MS, but my vote stays where it is for now as I don't really believe your sincerity. Prove me wrong. Your 106 is a good post, admittedly.

---

Right so my reads so far (as promised)
Espressojet..Seems to be very protown from what I can tell, Definitely trying to work out scum. Town
Candice..I rather like her responses to what she's been asked but also do think she's town
Hiplop..From what I can see in his posts he's only aimed at two people but both cases seem to be helpful
towards town even though one of them is me.I would say town
RedCoyote..Get a bad feeling from him as from the start there was the pointless thing over the avatar,Plus after
doesn't seem to be anything majorly helpful. 50/50
Elyse..Don't see anything that points her to scum, quite like her game play so far
Acryon..Do like half of what he's saying but after looking over what he's said is a bit half and half for me
Bicephalous Bob..Don't really have much to say on him. Null
Slandaar..Doesn't really say a lot most of it has no content but his last posts about acryon I do rather like..50/50

Is this a joke (pun intended)?

You're telling me you have not one scumread? I see three "50/50" reads here, which I take the mean another way of saying null. This is just so lame. There's a complete lack of aggression or interest in pressuing anyone. The most aggressive this gets is "gets a bad feeling" on me. You say I'm not being majorly helpful and that the avatar thing was "pointless", but you didn't bring this up at the time, you just called it "interesting".

This reads to me like you're wetting your finger and sticking it in the air to try and gauge which way the winds are blowing. You want to wait until there's three or four people voting one person so you can join them and hide in the back, yeah?

---

I definitely see what you mean, but I just prefer my pressure to be based in the discussion and not throwing my vote back and forth. It may be because 99% of the mafia play has been in-person where voting didn't really happen much until it was a concrete vote, and maybe I just need to get used to it working a little differently online.

This is better rationale that Candice used, but I understand where both of you are coming from. When I started playing here, I was big on FoSes myself.

---

Don't put words in my mouth. You may not claim my intentions, because they are mine.

My intention was to get people to discuss something. People are a lot easier to read when they aren't sitting idly making jokes and random accusations, but rather when they're arguing, talking, discussing, defending themselves, and accusing others.

I wasn't trying to get anybody lynched or start a wagon. I was trying to get the ball rolling.

And did it work?

With the way you're trying to hunt me down, I would say it did.

Now

this

, I like. I'm coming around on Espresso. This is town sounding because Slandaar is proportedly trying to speak for Espresso, but even if he's doing so with good intentions (as far as Espresso is concerned), Espresso is quick to chime in and tell Slandaar that he doesn't necessarily speak for him. Good post.

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RC, if you really believe that was a scumtell, please say so. I wanna vote you if you do.

I don't make it a habit of saying things I do not mean. If I find a logical reason for voting someone, whether it's small or large, I'm going to do it. How others interpret what I say is their business, but I was assuredly not voting kush as a joke or anything like that. Additionally, kush has not done anything to get me to really feel much better about him, but a couple of people have done things that made me feel worse about them (hiplop and joker).

---

I love, love, love Riabi's 149. Very clear and concise. Everything he says is explained. I'm also glad he's got an avatar now. Indeed, he may have shot to the top of my town reads with that single post.

I had less of an issue with that and more of an issue with the phrase "starting to" and the word "kinda". They read to me like "well, this is kinda what I want to say, but, I'm too afraid to just come out and say it". That said, I can buy that it's mostly a playstyle thing, and I'll try to keep that in mind going forward.

This is good as well. Maybe a touch hard of Candice (although I agree with Riabi's point, I think something has to be said for assessing the players on a case-by-case basis... while I've never played with Candice to my recollection, he strikes me as the insecure, for lack of a better word, type that may not be the one to take the first strike, but once he's found what he's looking for, he'll come after one hard), but I can forgive that as I could just be too naive and unsuspecting toward Candice.

---

Pretty damn sure that slandaar/candice discussion means they are town.

I agree with this, but I'd like to think I've documented as to how I've got there. I can't say the same for you.

Also your 169 flat out contradicts what you said in 166 RE: Candice, which just gives me more red flags about your alignment. I'm glad Candice catches this in 173.

---

DLA's 185 is nice to read even if I disagree with a lot of it. I'm getting a lot of very clear town/scum reads in this game, so I'm really happy with the way things are going.

---

What else should I say?

Why you're voting him.

[RedCoyote]

Although I think it has more or less blown over, the Espresso/Boonskiies/DLA bickering is getting us nowhere and sidetracking this game, imo. I am getting next to nothing out of these exchanges short of this implied message of, "You're scum because you're not playing properly!" That's what I am getting out of it anyway.

I encourage you three to take a breath and relax. We're stuck with each other for the time being. I'm not over-the-moon with how Boonskiies is playing the game, but he's also not done anything that I consider to be overly anti-town.

---

Apologies, RC. The "is that what you think" you addressed in your post was a joke. I'm batting 1000 with the jokes so I'll stop now.

There's certainly no need to apologize, Candice. I just wanted to make it clear where I stood.

---

He thought I was calling him scum which is obvious by the 'hunting ME down' line thus the bolded clearly is wrong.

I see your point, but it's kind of ironic in a discussion that concerns you speaking on behalf of Espresso you rebut with another unprovoked comment on behalf of Espresso.

---

Boonskiies is a town troller. EspressoJet is more scummy IMO.

Is it your contention that Espresso is trying to mimick Boonskiies as scum and kind of do a "We're both just being goofy townies! "?

Or, like, do you think he's trying to buddy up to Boonskiies in a weird way by appealing to a sense of hydra camaraderie?

I'm kind of confused as to how you got here, help me understand.

---

you had plenty of opportunity to say something townish, as is often the case while doing something pro-town, you somehow managed not to

This just sounds like you pulled some generic ideas out of the air and applied them to me. Naturally, I strongly disagree with the notion that I have not "said something townish". Look, just admit that you aren't digging me due to a gut read instead of trying to make up some gobbledygook about me meeting some arbitrary standard of "saying something townish".

That said, the rest of your post is okay in a minimalistic sort of way. I also like your 289 and 291.

[RedCoyote]

Was our last game mean girls? I was scum there too lol

I just clicked on the link to the game and it said you were town though...?

[RedCoyote]

See: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5702118

[RedCoyote]

Acryon feels fake. Acryon gets my vote.

That's kind of a crappy post for someone just entering the game, reinoe. :/

At least 4 or 5 of the pages are filled with fluff. That's really all you've got to say?

I also like that acryon didn't get defensive about reinoe's vote and start blowing up. He could've, but he didn't bother addressing it because it's arguably not worthy of addressing.

You know what? Based on my interpretation of joker's play, on reinoe's crappy start, and on the fact that no one seems to be interested in a hiplop wagon...

UNVOTE: hiplop; VOTE: reinoe

I encourage other players to start coalescing behind wagons now. We're several pages in, the deadline is counting down, and little progress is being made. The town needs to start consolidating votes.

[RedCoyote]

To clarify, when I said "at least 4 or 5 pages are filled with fluff", I just meant that it isn't really a hard game to catch up on if you give it an hour.

[RedCoyote]

I don't really feel joker-scum. Which of his posts makes you think that?

hiplop makes a good point against her here (just because I think he's scum doesn't mean he couldn't be bussing, or that I could be wrong about him, btw) that I don't recall her effectively retorting. Overall she was just really flighty and non-committal. Check out her 118 as well. Now I dare you to defend that post. That's just has weak written all over it.

---

I have a few town reads, no incredible scumreads so even if boon's town play is indistinguishable from his scum play like espresso claims, he's a good lynch

also gut

This is a fair point, but I think the town can do better than Boonskiies today. hiplop or reinoe is more likely going to give us scum.

---

The reason why I said "Elyse always votes me" is because it's simply a 100% accurate and true statement. Whether I'm town or scum, Elyse simply scumreads my playstyle. I predicted it.

You don't stand by your opening post, do you?

---

Unproductive, yes, but I don't see that being alignment indicative.

How is being unproductive not alignment indicative? Scum are trying to make the town be unproductive! Come on, DLA.

> I was just confused about
> these indents you used.

[notgamerelated]For the record, if you run across this again, it just means sarcasm (e.g. "You're implying that 4 days isn't a long time... but it is") Hope that makes sense.[/notgamerelated]

[RedCoyote]

Candice should be back today according to the activity overview page. kusk has been conspicuously absent for the past couple of days himself.

I think Slandaar/Espresso/acryon have asked one another to re-read their posts 100 times, collectively. I have a simple solution: I do not think we should be lynching from anyone in that group. It would be nice if those three players could agree to that as it has a clear benefit to each of them (they're safe for today).

[RedCoyote]

Actually, Slandaar, let me ask you point blank, since it seems to me (especially in light of 470 which I know for a fact isn't the first time acryon has tried to open the game up more) that you're the one most responsible for prolonging this discussion over what should now be known as stretchgate. Do you think you're convincing anyone and/or gaining any headway on selling this acryon wagon to the rest of the game?

[RedCoyote]

What claim?

[RedCoyote]

Wait, wait, wait. I must have forgotten something. Where do you think Bob softclaimed claimed doctor?

[RedCoyote]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[RedCoyote]

Ugh.

UNVOTE: reinoe

[RedCoyote]

I do agree with DLA on this as well. Have we decided on who would be the best lynch for toDay? Reinoe's staying alive, easy as that. No need to risk lynching a claimed PR (we'll find out soon enough if it is legit).

But yeah, it looks as if we should go down the route of that triangle. Slandaar/Espresso/Acroyn. I believe at least one of them is scum; I don't think it's Espresso.

This is lazy and it flies in the face of what you've been saying today. I had no idea you wanted to lynch in that group, and you don't even give us any indication as to what direction you want to go. Slandaar and acryon have played pretty differently, imo.

VOTE: Boonskiies

[RedCoyote]

Espresso, you have a habit of defending people very strongly on D1. This doesn't bode well for you in my eyes based on [redacted].

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE: Boonskiies; VOTE: Espressojet

Lol, oh wow. Espresso thought he had the hammer, didn't he? Now he's trying to play it off like he's goofing around.

[RedCoyote]

Uh... did you just see I voted Espresso?

[RedCoyote]

Reinoe pulled the color code shit in the same game he just linked me to and he was scum. Does anyone have any other games of him doing it?

If you show me this link, I'll move back on him right now.

[RedCoyote]

Eh, well, it was worth a shot.

[RedCoyote]

Espresso, explain to me your behavior in 623. What were you trying to accomplish with that post?

[RedCoyote]

Why are you speaking for him?

[RedCoyote]

Story time's over, did somebody just suggest the fact that there are millers in this game?

I sort of get this, but the policy is only to punish players that self-vote, with no regard for their alignment? Also, a miller has flipped. Do you think there are more?

---

Uhm, I didn't even defend myself in anyway? Haha. And I don't really plan to. I'm just a boring town role, and could care less about what happens in this game.

...so you don't care if you win or not? You're just trolling us?

---

I really don't like that nk.

I don't either, actually, but possibly for different reasons than you. I want to hear you first since I asked you first.

---

It's cuz he's probably scum.

That was the next question I had for you. Is Boon WIFOMing us? If he is, why are you not voting him?

---

It doesn't change the dynamic of the game and when scum don't try to change the dynamic that usually means they are happy with how things are.

I don't like that.

It smells like an Elyse kill to me.

This is deep. I really, really like this. This is much deeper than what I was going to offer. I didn't like the kill simply because I think Riabi was looked upon as fairly townie.

I actually like your Elyse case a lot, too. This is strange, because I thought your acryon case was confusing and disjointed. This is a much stronger, more effective line of attack. Don't let me forget I said this.

---

I'm openly waffling on my hiplop read. It's not a secret. And kush is a weak scumread. That's all there is to it. How does that lead to me killing Riabi? To be honest, he would be someone I would have killed if I was scum, but I don't know how my waffly read on hiplop points to that.

Yeah, but you're ignoring the first part of his case. He's saying that killing Riabi was sort of like the scum wanting to continue the status quo. I agree with that. Riabi was sort of a neutral player, I think. Whereas if the scum team had killed someone like Slandaar, then acryon may have caught more flak. Or if they had killed Boonskiies, then Espresso may have caught more flak. That's the way I'm interpreting it anyway.

---

I really want to lynch Espresso but I think it is also possible he is just trying to show off to Boon and vice versa which explains why neither does anything, they are too cool for that. We will see though.

Do you buy Espresso's argument that he was more or less "punishing" Boon for self-voting? It worries me that he did it without even telling us why he was voting Boon. He could've easily told us his motivations when he did it instead of after the fact, so it makes me more inclined to believe that Espresso was trying to get Boon lynched as his vote put him at L-1 unannouced. reinoe may have swooped in to take advantage of the voting that was going around quickly (Sal hadn't posted a vote count in over 2 pages). Another possibility is that Espresso may have thought he was throwing down a hammer, though I'm less convinced that's the case.

I am deliberately withholding my vote a bit longer. I want to see some responses first. I have it narrowed down to two players though.

[RedCoyote]

I want Espresso to be scum so bad, but my heart is telling me that's not the way we should go. Like, by all rights, he should be scum, but there are intangibles that I cannot really explain (call it gut, I guess) that want me to not vote him.

I hate not having a vote down. I know I've mentioned this already, but I'm struggling to find that real clear, real sturdy scum player that I want to see lynched today. There are a lot of "meh" lynches I'd support, but nothing really with a lot of energy that I can get behind.

this thread needs more memes!
but in all seriously I haven't done anything yet in this mafia day but i will.

Is there support for a kush wagon?

[RedCoyote]

I'd hate to add a sixth wagon to the mix though. Slandaar, why is this town so disconnected, do you think? Like, can you come up with one clique or bloc? Espresso/Boon have a strange bond, but Espresso is holding Boon at arm's length. I have a comfortable townread on acryon, but I don't know if that's a mutual thing or not. I have a pretty solid townread on Candice, too, but he's got me in the middle afaik. No idea what you think of me, although I have a townread on you, too.

I forgot DLA was in this game. What has he been up to?

[RedCoyote]

DLA hasn't had one real meaningful post today, imo. There's another meh lynch I'd probably support.

I think it's too early to resign to the popular wagon (and the most popular wagon only has two votes!), but I don't like the other options and the thought of starting another one seems like it will just add more noise.

Like, let me put it another way, we could get six wagons starting and it's likely one of them will be on scum, but it's going to be six different people telling you that their wagon is the right one, you know what I mean?

Also I am just talking to everyone at this point, not just Slandaar, so feel free to chime in if any of this resonates. I'm mostly just ranting to myself and trying to parse where I need to be with what best will help the town move forward.

[RedCoyote]

Slandaar/acryon, would you two support a hiplop wagon today?

[RedCoyote]

Honestly, the bloc I'd like to form would be myself, Slandaar, acryon and Candice. Just lynch everyone else and we'll win, lol.

Okay, that's enough posting from me today.

[RedCoyote]

Gonna try posting now.

I would support a kush wagon if he doesn't step up the participation. Kettle, pot, black, I know, but I feel like a large part of his posting has been asking other people what they think without posting his own thoughts. I may be off on that as I haven't reread the thread yet.

I'm not buying the wagon on Boon. I'm sorry, I just don't see him as scum. He's added a hell of a lot of noise to the thread but I think he was useful at the end of day 2. This is also a case of me being willing to support the wagon if there continues to be nothing but noise, but I think he makes a good point about Hiplop (raise your hands if you saw that coming).

Why would you be willing to support a DLA wagon, RC?

Yeah, I probably would. I've looked over this game and looked over it, and I can't really put my finger on anything super duper that is crying out to me. The thing that comes closest is hiplop, I guess, but even that I am just feeling kind of so-so on. I don't particularly want to lead a wagon. I don't want to create a case. I don't know if that sounds scummy or not, but it's how I feel deep down. I'm not saying that due to laziness, but rather because I just don't see any one person as overly scummy.

VOTE: hiplop

This is where my vote will ride for now. I think hiplop is the most deserving of a lynch today, if I have to choose. Bob's recent vote has helped sway me somewhat. hiplop has a lot of insincerity in his posts. One could argue that he's just an easily confused person or just trying to get his bearings after being away from Mafia for a while, but I think there might be something more to it than that. Candice's points are pretty salient, and I was on him early in this game as well. I'm willing to hear other cases, but this is at least one wagon that I want to be a strong competitor for today's lynch.

[RedCoyote]

It's as if this is Espresso's/Boon's world and we're just living in it.

Or, maybe more precisely, this is their game and we're just playing it, lol.

[RedCoyote]

Huh?

[RedCoyote]

Not you. Kush.

[RedCoyote]

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, I don't like acryon's lack of vote. I can understand it in this game, but it has been too long at this point. I feel like Espresso could abandon the Boon wagon at a moment's notice.

I will say that hiplop has been playing better than Boon has today. Boon, why do you only want the hammer vote? You think hiplop is good enough to hammer but not to vote? Why?

[RedCoyote]

Nurse is a "troll scumclaim"?

[RedCoyote]

I wasn't around at the end of the day; I was honestly asking.

[RedCoyote]

he's either faking it for towncred

Uh, what? Care to run that by us one more time? Why would "faking" anything like that get you towncred?

[RedCoyote]

well, since thinking reinoe was scum is more a town slip than a scum slip...

As I consider this, you're probably right, Bob. It seems to me like scum wouldn't make a mistake like that given that they know who their partners are.

[RedCoyote]

I don't like a Hiplop lynch.

I was with you until this. Does this mean you no longer things Elyse and hiplop are scum together? If I am understanding this right, you think the things Elyse has said are carefully worded in such a way that she can go back after hiplop flips (if he's town) and say, "wow, look, Slandaar was very wrong and very scum for pushing us together" to get credit?

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE: hiplop; VOTE: Boonskiies

[RedCoyote]

I was game to lynch Elyse until Slandaar completely changed a crucial point in his case out of the blue just for the sake of getting people to vote Elyse. Now I'm not so sure. Slandaar conveniently pivoted to having a hiplop townread just before hiplop claimed JK. It's almost like he expected what was going to happen here. I'm not necessarily suggesting anything nefarious, but I'm no longer getting genuine feeling from him. If someone doesn't know what I am talking about, see this:

Elyse/Hiplop looks really good and completely fits the scumteam profile which shoots Riabi.

Slandaar/acryon, would you two support a hiplop wagon today?

Maybe.

I do think Hip is town, yes.

I understand that people can change their reads, but there's something not kosher about this. Has anyone else picked up on this? Please just read those three quotes in unison before you answer.

[RedCoyote]

Boonskiies is just a meh lynch for me. I don't think it's great, but we're running low on time and I'd rather lynch someone that is anti-town and has a fair chance of flipping scum than follow Slandaar today.

[RedCoyote]

To sum it up, Slandaar goes from calling hiplop part of a scumteam with Elyse, to saying he'll "maybe" voting him, to calling him town (before hiplop claimed).

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: vote him

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP = Edit By Way Of Post

[RedCoyote]

I'm not saying it's necessarily suspicious, Slandaar, but it has seriously impacted my trust of you and your motivations.

I mean, the scumread seemed strongly predicated on the partnership with hiplop... then it suddenly wasn't? Huh? That doesn't make sense to me. Who replaces hiplop?

[RedCoyote]

I'm pretty sure hiplop is town. I've went back and forth on him all game (seriously, I could give you 8 posts with 8 different reads), but his play is so disjointed, so unorthodox... I just can't imagine him as a scum that is coordinating stuff behind the scenes. Maybe hiplop is just playing dumb, but I'll give him his props if he fooled me. I know hiplop to be a very thoughtful scum player meta-wise.

That said, if he isn't dead tomorrow, I think he should hang. No excuses.

---

Elyse... Meh. I don't get her push on me, I wish I did, it just doesn't make sense to me, nor has she explained it to any length that could.

I have no idea why Elyse is voting me and I do not care to find out why. I shall not question her as clearly there is nothing wrong with her push which I do not understand. Instead let us lynch Boon who is dumb or scum and is not helping town either way! Policy lynch guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As much as I think Slandaar was off-base with his Elyse scumread at the end of yesterday when he completely did a 180 on hiplop, I do think he's onto something with this post. This is a pretty good catch, and it does tie Espresso to Elyse.

Didn't we agree at some point early in this game that there was one scum between Espresso/Boonskiies anyway? I could've sworn we did.

DL is town for this absolutely brilliant paragraph along with his read on Boon/Espresso.

Huh? This was about kush, not Espresso. How can you call someone town for their read on a player that hasn't flipped? This is kind of weird. Again, DLA seems so completely absent from this game.

---

Personally, I think hip is mafia RB.

Then where's the vote? You know, I've cut you a lot of slack this game, acryon, but this is starting to wear on my nerves. Not voting should be extraordinary, not ordinary. Heck, I think when players aren't voting they ought to be explaining that just as much, if not more, than when they are voting. Because when you vote someone, there's already an implication you think they're scum (even if you don't necessarily elaborate on that), but when you're not voting at all, then you don't get even that.

---

massclaim?

Yes, I agree to this. I don't think there's any reason to delay this anymore now. We might as well lock the scum down to a claim.

like, the difference between a town jailkeeper and mafia rb is so big that we should be either able to confirm his claim or lynch the cc tomorrow

I absolutely agree with this as well. This is a much more effective argument than the one I made, anyway. It's what I was thinking but couldn't really put into words.

---

Well... I got what I wanted.

A dead cop?

VOTE: Espressojet

[RedCoyote]

acryon, if you read this before you go, will you popcorn to someone else?

[RedCoyote]

If I had to pick scum between hiplop and acryon, I'd probably go for hiplop. I think we should have hiplop JK acryon, don't you, Bob? Does anyone disagree with this and want to try and sway me in another direction?

[RedCoyote]

acryon, if hiplop doesn't die tomorrow after we tell him to JK you, you can't die and we'll know hiplop is scum. I mean, I guess you could die, but regardless whether you die or not, I'll want hiplop lynched tomorrow if he doesn't die.

hiplop, then that leaves acryon vulnerable if you are scum. Like I said, if I had to pick right now one scum between you two, I'll take you as the scum.

[RedCoyote]

That's a good point. I guess I am just assuming that the scumteam wouldn't want to leave the JK around any longer than they have to lest he manages to block a shot.

[RedCoyote]

Hm. Elyse's 1183 is good. When you put his posts together like that in a macro sort of way, acryon's not looking so hot.

I'm so wishy-washy this game. Why isn't anyone attacking me for this, lol?

Slandaar, what do you make of that post?

It matters that kush hasn't flipped because you're using circular logic, brother. DLA is town because DLA's read on kush is accurate. DLA's read on kush is accurate because DLA is town.

If kush had flipped town and you pointed to a post DLA made that called kush town, then I could follow where you were going. But you're making two assumptions and putting them together as though they each confirm the other. That's conjecture, not logic.

[RedCoyote]

Espresso as scum on the back of his antagonizing me for trying to scumhunt in 25, his "policy vote" on Boonskiies 623 that looked an awful lot like someone angling for a quickhammer, Boonskiies's townflip, Espresso's weird 1159 where he's presumably glad a VT was lynched, and sprinkle in some VCA of reinoe and Boonskiies wagons. Further, I like your scumteam of Elyse/Espresso as strong possibility, though I'm leery of drawing connections before we have a single scumflip and also still leery about how quickly you did a 180 on hiplop yesterday when he was at L-1.

[RedCoyote]

Espresso as scum on the back of his antagonizing me for trying to scumhunt in 25

Don't like Espresso's content

his "policy vote" on Boonskiies 623 that looked an awful lot like someone angling for a quickhammer, Boonskiies's townflip,

Don't like Espresso's content

Espresso's weird 1159 where he's presumably glad a VT was lynched,

Your argument is plain bad here.

and sprinkle in some VCA of reinoe and Boonskiies wagons.s

VCA

I like DL's content and VCA isn't an issue hence he is town. Like being an understatement. Kush's alignment doesn't matter; I can like content even if it turns out it is wrong. Kush being town would not change my opinion on how good I think that evaluation of Kush's play has been. This is much easier to demonstrate on D1 but still...

Yeah, I don't like his content. Another way of putting that is that I think his content is scummy. I don't like 1159 at all. I think it serves no purpose. He didn't build off of it. He didn't try and figure out why he was wrong or why "getting what he wanted" ended up harming the town. Ergo, I think he's glad Boon was lynched and I think it's just another reason we should come down on him.

Your DLA read is still bad. It's bad to read someone based on a read they have of a player that hasn't flipped. You're essentially saying that because you and DLA read kush the same way, he's town. That's what it comes down to when I take out the bells and whistles. It's weak and I'm going to remember your buddying to him.

---

but who claimed what

Are you really incapable of figuring this out yourself? Put down the bong.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, yes, I forgot I claimed yesterday

Vanilla Townie. Popcorn Elyse.

[RedCoyote]

You saw mine though, Espresso, so there's at least that. You may (and should) disagree with it, but don't pretend like I didn't lay it down for you. You also shouldn't be surprised, while I fully admit to saying I've had townreads on you at points in the game, we seem to keep losing townies here.

I'm convinced that Boon/Espresso weren't both town. I think they were antagonizing one another in such a way that they'd have picked up on it if they were both town based on what they've told us about themselves.

[RedCoyote]

You're conflating two different things, I think. Those are separate things, Slandaar. I mean, you're right in the most technical of senses, but you're also completely missing the point. I thought you made a good case against Elyse/hiplop and their potential to be buddies, and, yeah, that gave me more of a townread on you. DLA didn't make a case against kush. DLA really didn't say all that much at all about him.

And you can townread players by the questions they ask, the cases they make, the overall feeling you get from their play. Anyway, I think you're not being fair with these comparisons. My point was very specific, and you're trying to make it so broad as to encapsulate any possible thing someone could say about someone else on D1. I'm beginning to feel like acryon earlier today because this whole train of thought is starting to become so esoteric and so far removed from where I was originally going with it.

[RedCoyote]

We agree to disagree then. I see these two things as very different. You do not. I think you're doing yourself a disservice to equate your case on Elyse/hiplop with DLA's read of kush as though they're equally well thought out and constructed, but whatever floats your boat.

[RedCoyote]

I think I agree with DLA's sentiments there. I don't see any problem with the two PRs existing together, frankly, although as I said before, I am much less inclined to trust hiplop, although Elyse brought up some good points. I've had a pretty solid acryon townread throughout the game, but he plays way too cautious for my taste.

Further, Sal strikes me as the type of mod to be PR-heavy in a game he creates.

[RedCoyote]

Ugh, what a bad sentence. Let me try that again:

I don't see any problem witht he two PRs existing together, frankly. Granted, I have said that I am less inclined to trust hiplop, but Elyse made some good points as well. Namely the lack of a Candice protection. But you have to think what would scumacryon gain from fakeclaiming doc under zero pressure?

[RedCoyote]

This isn't D1, Csareo. And there's something kind of unsettling about your throwing the newb card out for him given, one, your join date, and two, that you've claimed to have read at least 12 pages and presumably have no opinion of him.

[RedCoyote]

1190 is why I'm voting Espresso, btw, if you want a cliff notes version.

[RedCoyote]

"Just Espresso being Espresso" ... "too scummy to be scum" ...

Csareo, if you are going to pooh-pooh the leading wagon, then its on you to give us an alternative.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: it's

[RedCoyote]

I'm asking questions, so maybe I can make a case on an alternative.
Replacing into a game with 55 pages is willingly jumping into hell.

That's about the third time you've whined about replacing into this game. I sympathize with replacing into games with many pages as I have done it a number of times, but you knew that coming in, brother.

That said, I don't mean to come across as wanting to stonewall you from asking questions or getting reactions from others. I welcome you to do so. I just want to make it clear that I have no intention at this time to help you detract from the Espresso wagon as I think he is clearly scum. If you are able to convince me otherwise, however, then I'm open to that.

[RedCoyote]

Bob, do you think the long delay in hammering Espresso means that the scum are fighting against it or that they can't quite push it over the top?

[RedCoyote]

Well, I guess we'll be waiting a few days for the flip... :/

[RedCoyote]

Don't just wait like scum. You all need to keep fucking talking.

I don't know how good this will do us. You talking may help, but in twilight the town is just broadcasting free information to the scumteam in regards to whom they should kill next.

This was a very reaching vote. I still can't believe you got away with voting me for that reason too. And don't just say that it was for something else, because if so you wouldn't have separated that segment from the rest of the post, or at least you would have separated it from your own statement.

It was for something else. It was for a culmination of things that I had the kindness to lay out for you, Slandaar and anyone else that was interested.

In any event, I stand by voting you in light of your relationship with Boon.

---

It is likely scum is Elyse/Red/DL

What? DLA was the guy that you had as your top townread, Slandaar. Walk me through this seemingly abrupt change, as this is the second major time you have quickly flip-flopped on something that tends to require baby steps.

---

If I were scum with hiplop I would bus him.

...but you're scumreading him...

I mean, I get you were responding to Bob's question about DLA, but this comment doesn't sit well with me. Because you're effectively saying that you'd go after hiplop regardless of your alignment.

[RedCoyote]

What's the point of saying it if you don't explain it?

I request one of the PRs protecting me as I think it's agreed that I am the best townie here. Slandaar is the only person that disagrees with this, and he will probably be changing his mind about it in the next few hours anyway.

[RedCoyote]

You already broadcasted it (assuming you're town), so the cat is out of the bag, amigo.

[RedCoyote]

Mod, I believe there are seven alive, yeah?

That was kind of a weird typo...

My kneejerk reaction is that that was an odd kill. Csareo was in the middle for me, but I didn't like how he was buddying up to Espresso yesterday, so I was coming around to a scumread on him.

I'm pretty much deadset on lynching hiplop today. Does anyone really disagree with this (besides Slandaar)? I'll wait for him to post his results, but there's pretty much nothing he can say to convince me that he's town-aligned.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, sneaky, you fixed it before I posted and now I look like a kook.

[RedCoyote]

Why is Hip your super duper top scumread Red?

Uh, because he's not dead?

VOTE: hiplop

[RedCoyote]

Why is Hip your super duper top scumread Red?

Uh, because he's not dead?

VOTE: hiplop

Neither is Acryon?

What does him not being dead have to do with anything?

acryon is a doctor. A doctor is a joke compared to a supposed JK. Why would the scum risk keeping a JK alive that can 1) possibly stop their kill via protecting someone or 2) possibly stop their kill via jailing a scum member?

And if you say, "well, scumteam are worried that acryon could protect hiplop", then why the heck didn't they kill acryon?

---

I chose not to say anything about it before night as I was afraid it would change the night events, but I've been thinking that if hiplop and acryon were both town, we would have seen acryon killed, as that would fuel the hiplop wagon.

If anyone needs evidence, look at how hiplop has been excusing his night actions because "he was told to do it"

I see your point, but Elyse is right that this is straight WIFOM. Also your third vote on the wagon is awfully suggestive of a scum bus attempt, but I'll let it slide given that it's your first post of the day.

---

Well he

was

told to do it; by me.

And I told him to protect me. Your point? You really think he's town just because he followed your orders?

---

Please someone unvote. Quick voting in lylo is a fucking stupid thing to do

I have no problem with a quicklynch. There's literally zero reason you should be alive right now. Strategy and WIFOM be damned, the scumteam would not risk keeping you alive if you were town-aligned.

---

Slandaar is confirmed town.

lolwut

You do realize there's going to be more than one member of the scumteam, don't you? Sure, you get a little more creditability, but let's not go crazy.

Hiplop/Acryon max 1 scum.

Wrong again. Max 2 scum. It's unlikely, but it's a possibility.

In fact, friends, I think you should all post the names of the 3 people you think are scum.

Given what you said in 1563 and your weird over-defense of hiplop, I'm leaning toward you being part of the scumteam. Elyse may round it out if you like to bus hard, but I'm torn on my third. All I know is I have acryon as probably my strongest and only townread that I would be willing to bet the game on at this point.

Hip/Elyse and Red have significantly less posts than the rest of us. Kind of interesting.

Not really. This is an alignment-neutral posting style of mine. I don't generally make a dozen two or three sentence posts like you do, I make larger posts that encompass a bigger portion of the game.

This "interesting" point is self-serving.

Scum Hip doesn't RB scum Sland. (And Hipscum can't claim to target Slandscum in the situation he did)

You ever consider that hiplop lied about the person he blocked, Slandaar? Or, you know, that he didn't even use it in this scenario? How could you miss something so obvious? And then have the audacity to puff up your chest and portend to being confirmed?

[RedCoyote]

I was obviously not whiteknighting

slandaar isn't conftown but who cares

I do, and you should, too. Why are you not voting hiplop?

[RedCoyote]

I can't decide on my third.

hip/Elyse/Slandaar or hip/Slandaar/Bob would be my my top two. I think it's very possible DLA is the third, but he would probably be the last one I'd choose at this point. I could also see hip/Elyse/Bob, but I would need to go back and analyze Bob more.

I think this town would be really foolish not to lynch hiplop today, however!

[RedCoyote]

I can't decide on my third.

hip/Elyse/Slandaar or hip/Slandaar/Bob would be my my top two. I think it's very possible DLA is the third, but he would probably be the last one I'd choose at this point. I could also see hip/Elyse/Bob, but I would need to go back and analyze Bob more.

I think this town would be really foolish not to lynch hiplop today, however!

What did you think of the exchange between Candice and Hip re: Hip getting the idea that Candice was a PR?

Point me to it, please.

---

DLA, thanks for the deep insight. What was the scummiest part? The part where I called Slandaar out on his crap, easily unprovable claim that he was "confirmed", or the part where I pushed harder for a hiplop lynch?

---

rc why did you think you were considered to be the towniest/nightkill yesterday

I'm always the towniest player in every game I play, bud. This game is no exception.

[RedCoyote]

DLA, did you just read what I wrong in my "scumwall" about how Slandaar is in no way confirmed? Granted, he's less likely to be scum given that I don't know with certainty that hiplop is scum, but you especially should be critical of Slandaar's wild claims given that you think hiplop is scum (and, thus, has no reason to be honest about how he used his power overnight).

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: read what I

wrote

in my "scumwall"

Thinking too fast for my fingers to process.

[RedCoyote]

Here is a core piece of it. It's all around this post.

Look, I don't want to lynch hiplop because I think he's playing his role badly or because someone made X case against him or anything like that... I'm looking at this game from the lens of what the scum would want to do strategically. Why would hiplop be around this long? A JK is one of the single most damaging PRs the scumteam can face. A JK can stop a kill, can block a goon from shooting, can stop and scum PR from using their power and can give town players more creditability (e.g. if I think hiplop was town I would be much less inclined to suspect Slandaar because he was jailed over night). I cannot think of a logical reason to leave hiplop alive as town, can you?

The only possible reason is to frame him, but that's wayyyy too risky to do in this situation given that Slandaar is already on record as a strong hiplop supporter and that no one else has really shown much interest in lynching hiplop expect for me. So why would the scumteam take that risk? It makes zero sense to me. If acryon and hiplop are both town, then how powerful does the scumteam have to be to counteract that, you know? There's so much evidence going against hiplop here, acryon. It's very clear cut for me.

---

There was no reason for hiplop not to use his RB, especially when he had such a good excuse. For that reason, if hiplop is scum, Slandaar is almost certainly town. And Slandaar also didn't hammer.

You're off your rocker, man. "No reason not to use his RB"... uh, maybe so he could then have his buddy Slandaar claim to be confirmed? And, again, why are you so inclined to think hiplop is telling the truth about his Slandaar visit to begin with? Especially if you think he's scum? If I was scumhiplop, I'd have blocked acryon (assuming they're not scum together which seems extremely unlikely) and then killed with impunity.

DLA, on one side of you're mouth you're saying that hiplop is scum, but on the other side you are believing everything he says. What gives?

[RedCoyote]

Hiplop had lots of suspicion on him so the scumsies would think 'juicy mislynch yayyy! don't kill!!!'

Yesterday? Show me.

Even if he blocked a kill we wouldn't know
1. It was him
and
2. scum didn't no kill.

It doesn't matter. It makes the scumteam's job harder in any instance.

Effectively by claiming his power became close to worthless.

Huh?! Only if he broadcasts his movements the day before as you have suggested he should do. Thankfully the town has me to stand up to your arrogance.

No, I don't think hes town for that but it does allow him to say he targeted me because he was told to.

Do you disagree?

But my point is that you don't know who he protected. Have you considered he said he jailed you to placate you?

And shockingly I am not wrong here either.

Do you believe:
Cop
Miller
Vs
Goon
Goon
X-shot RB

Is balanced Red?

No, when you put it that way, it doesn't sound too balanced like that. Assuming every VT is actually a VT, of course.

I even mentioned he couldn't lie about his target in said scenario!

If he lied about his target he had the possibility to be caught red handed when the unclaimed person claimed to be blocked.

What do you mean? Why would someone know they have been jailed/blocked? Are you implying the mod confirmed that hiplop jailed you last night?

Why wouldn't he use it?

Due to strategy.

Conspiracy Theories are amusing but do you realize how stupid this one is?

And when they run out of ways to prove you wrong, they result to insults...

You can call my ideas stupid all you want, you've been coaching hiplop for the second half of this game. I've been the only one willing to consistently point this out, and it's not hard to connect the dots.

That is quite amazing, you would have blocked the unclaimed Doctor

What are you talking about unclaimed? acryon claimed yesterday, Slandaar.

Red arguing that the setup is Cop/Miller when scum has a RB I think guarantees him scum.

Lol, nice misrepresentation. I suggested that it was a possibility. Your absolutes will lose the game for the town. Hell, I remember not to long ago how you were convinced that DLA was confirmed town, too. You seem to be singing a different tune these days.

[RedCoyote]

The debate is over. hiplop is scum.

DLA, get back on hiplop. Bob/acryon, one of you join him. Enough fooling around. By the time Slandaar gets through talking, he'll have sold you some oceanfront property in Arizona (for non-US residents, Arizona is a landlocked state in our country).

[RedCoyote]

Bob, what are you getting out of this? From skimming it looks like you're asking the same question over and over again.

If hip is scum or town, scum would never kill the person we told him to target.

THIS.

Thank you.

I don't know how many times I've effectively said the same thing only to have Slandaar slap it down. If hiplop is scum, he has no incentive to tell the truth. In fact, he has an incentive to lie to his team's advantage.

[RedCoyote]

You know, Elyse, you spend all this time whining about how people have been suspecting you "by default" or whatever words you used, but your suspicions of me have been pretty unwarranted themselves. I don't recall you having to say anything but good things about me this whole game, so for you to keep throwing me in there as part of the scumteam is kind of hypocritical of you, yeah?

[RedCoyote]

I'm tempted to vote Slandaar for just trying to railroad the rest of the game. I'll pause a bit to cool down, but he's really upsetting me.

[RedCoyote]

Does no one else see that Slandaar is trying everything he can to stop the hiplop lynch? I'll shut up now because I know I haven't argued this the proper way... if I had a better tongue I'd be able to say this more convincingly.

[RedCoyote]

I don't know who is working harder to stop the hiplop wagon now, Slandaar or DLA. At least Slandaar is being upfront about it.

UNVOTE: hiplop

I need to think on this game. I thought the hiplop lynch would be a sure thing, but the way this is dragging makes me think I'm wrong about where I am going in this game. acryon, if you were me, what would you do?

[RedCoyote]

I know I'm coming across as scummy from a lot of you... I think I am just frustrated with this game. Slandaar in particular is frustrating me because I know I have to spend a whole bunch of time refuting his crap and I am not looking forward to it. I hate being town and I hate it even more when I am town that is not doing his job well (that is to say avoiding suspicion and contributing independent, thoughtful activity to the game). When you're scum you have more options in the sense that you can kind of get a feel for which players act certain ways and pray on them/avoid them in order to accomplish your goals... but when you are town you have to be suspicious and mistrustful of everyone and it's sucks. It's totally vexing. Let me get a little more liquor in me and I might come back to this later (although the alcohol hasn't helped the past couple of days!).

VOTE: hiplop

Bob, you're right. I didn't realize acryon had posted when hiplop was at L-1. This effectively makes hiplop confirmed scum in my eyes.

[RedCoyote]

Another quick thing. Bob's posting just perfectly contrasts with DLA and Elyse in the last page. I think Bob is town and DLA and/or Elyse is scum. You know why? When I unvoted hiplop, I didn't intend for that to be a test or anything. That was me being a bit lit up and not taking the time to realize that acryon had posted with hiplop at L-1. Bob's first response was to tell me flat out that hiplop was confirmed scum from my pov. Now, Bob may or may not think I'm scum, I don't know. He didn't jump to a conclusion or try to push an agenda, however.

What were DLA/Elyse's first responses? They both called me more or less obviously scum. They didn't even think to have a dialogue with me or interrogate why I did what I did. They just assumed it was a scum tactic in order to smear me. That's a scum mentality. So, in a way, my ineptitude in doing that just made the game a little clearer for me.

[RedCoyote]

Sorry, going to have spotty activity over the next couple of days. I know I have been neglecting this game. I'm going to be out of town. Hopefully should be able to give it more next phase.

[RedCoyote]

There is more I just don't feel the need to keep going...

Your first quote is from acryon, obviously he's going to suspect hiplop. Your DLA quote leaves out some serious context in that DLA never seriously persued it. And your Elyse quotes? Elyse was wishy-washy on hiplop vs acryon and you know it.

If the JK's results are unverifiable due to a doc claim and the possibility of scum no killing his results are worthless. Added to the fact he was a nice easy mislynch and you get the point.

But that's my entire point. You're the one trying to argue that hiplop's results make your confirmed.

So, if he secretly Jailed you last night and there wasn't a kill then what does that do? What does that tell everyone?

The answer is nothing.

Nothing? No, he claims exactly that and the lynch for that day becomes 50/50.

Because the night we are talking about was the night before massclaim thus he could have blocked a PR so claiming on me outs him in that situation.

No, I'm not talking about that night. I'm talking about after acryon claimed... before then it's useless.

Probably should have blocked the doctor who you think was claimed which you said yourself you would block.

I'm not a JK.

So, You think Hiplop claimed to have Jailed me instead of whoever he did target when people hadn't claimed?

After the massclaim, not before.

I guess you shall be showing this coaching hm?

• Hiplop you are going to need to explain why you thought it was a good idea not to protect the claimed PR which scum knew about.

  
  

  Why did you just bend over and do what Bob said is correct instead of what you think is correct?
  
  The only reason I didn't tell you to target Candice yesterday was because I thought you would know that was the play without me telling you and by me telling you it means scum know etc etc.
  

  
  

  No, the point is if Acryon is scum Hiplop could always have prevented the kill if there isn't a kill so he can't be 'set up'. No-one will know who prevented the kill with their claimed action.

So, for the record, I agree with what Acryon said and clearly this was why we were forcing Hiplop to target someone last night(me) because when he is scum we gain utility from it. I don't agree with what Red says.

We gain utility regardless, but my point is that we cannot take what hiplop says at face value because scum have an incentive to lie. You have consistently disagreed with this because you want to make it look as though you are confirmed.

[RedCoyote]

acryon, I wish I was around 24/7 like Slaandar is to whisper sweet nothings into your ear. The only people that even seem remotely interested in the idea that Slaandar is being calculating and controlling is you and Bob. Elyse/DLA/hiplop are all completely buying into Slaandar 100% lock, stock and barrel. Well, Elyse isn't, but she's been so muted in actually criticizing him that it's effectively the same thing. Everytime I check this thread Elyse is like a broken record complaining about being shoehorned into a scumslot but she never puts for the effort to fight back against Slaandar.

I'm going to be online for a while, if anyone is online and wants to chat with me, let's do so.

[RedCoyote]

Scum wouldn't RB their own team.

Crap like this is so scummy. Yeah, and scum won't NK. And scum won't bus. And scum won't prey on inactive players by insincerely voting them at opportune moments. You're full of it, man. I take pride in the fact that I caught you on it, regardless whether you have outplayed me this game or not.

[RedCoyote]

Wow, just had a post erased for the first time in years...

One last thing I want to say, Slaandar, is that what really convinced me of your alignment in this game wasn't when I was fanning suspicion your way over the hiplop 180 you did earlier (I was giving you a hard time but townies do change their mind), but that you won't even acknowledge the possibility of scum hiplop lying to take advantage of the town. Or, you know, writing it off as "bad play" or some such dismissal. I knew right there you were being disingenuous and setting me up as a target rather than scumhunting. As town, you would've appreciated me willing to be aggressive with you and call you out if I thought you were up to no good.

Your attack of my Espresso vote is yesterday's news. I stand by my criticism of Espresso's play and his reaction to Boonskiies' flip. It was trash at the time and it still is today. That post was the straw that broke the camel's back with me, and I was tired of him feigning activity.

[RedCoyote]

Err, EBWOP for 1845: And scum won't

not

NK.

[RedCoyote]

Huh. This is kind of a bad post. Kind of really bad. Maybe it's just a fluke, so I'll give him another shot...

Maybe it's just a fluke?!

Like what is that? This townie wrote a bad post but I am not going to jump on it because maybe it's a fluke!

What a load of nonsense town don't say this sort of thing.

By the way, Candice acknowledged that post was bad himself. I didn't jump on him because I had no experience with Candice. I wanted to go on record as calling out Candice for that post. What's wrong with calling out potential scummy things?

[RedCoyote]

This game is just getting under my damn skin. acryon, if you're online, seriously post here tonight so that I may at least have a chance to dialogue with you here.

[RedCoyote]

Of course you're not, lol. You scumread me, the only one actually thinking independently in this game.

[RedCoyote]

I have never seen scum RB scum.

No! I'm saying hiplop claimed to have RB'd you. If you two are scum, he simply wouldn't have used it (or used it on, say, acryon).

You keep insisting that I am trying to come up with this conspiracy on the scum using their powers on one another, but that's not the case at all. I'm just saying hiplop easily could've lied about how he used his power to the town if you two are scum together. As simply as a scum team could not kill overnight and then act as though they think a protective role stopped the shot.

Either he takes a huge risk in outing himself by lying because I can be a PR or he tells the truth. He will tell the truth.

You keep acting as though the mass claim happened on D4. This is, like, the fifth time you've done this. The mass claim happened on D3, dude.

Are you really saying that he's taking a huge risk by lying to a claimed VT?

What do you think of Bob?

Most likely town based on what I said in 1751.

Red is clearly not thinking Acryon is scum so there is no revelation here. Learning Acryon had posted makes no difference to his view because the fact is Hiplop had to be scum when he thought Acryon was town.

As I inferred in the post you quoted (well, the post you cherry-picked a quote from ), I was not aware hiplop had been at L-1 and acryon had posted without hammering him. I agree that it's so unlikely that acryon and hiplop are scum together that I am willing to make that concession.

Slandaar is trying to hard to bait me into voting him today.

[RedCoyote]

No, you've just said that doing that "seems bad" without elaborating. Why would it be bad if you two are both scum? I think it would be pretty clever.

By the way, if you two are scum together, it doesn't matter if he claimed to have targetted you before or after the massclaim. You two could've and would've been concocting this from the word go.

[RedCoyote]

You are a cute scumbag, my friend. Cute but deadly.

[RedCoyote]

As expected, hiplop has flipped scum. Slandaar's guilty and associative fingers are all over hiplop. I look forward to going back over their interactions to prove this.

[RedCoyote]

Actually, you know, before I even try this... DLA/Elyse/Bob, are any of you even open to me pointing out the connections between Slaandar/hiplop? Like, as in, have an open mind to even considering it? Two of you seem like you're already completely in his pocket, so it's kind of getting me down. If y'all are all set on lynching me, then it doesn't really matter much what I write, yeah? Because the game is over regardless.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, Bob, if it wasn't completely obvious, you're not part of the "two of you", lol. I just threw you in for posterity. I am pretty convinced you are town regardless of how you vote today just because of the things you've said and how I think you've actually been considering the game in a sincere way at different points.

[RedCoyote]

Wow... well, at least your honest in your being completely in Slaandar's pocket.

DLA?

[RedCoyote]

Okay, first, lets remember Slandaar's flip-flop:

Elyse/Hiplop looks really good and completely fits the scumteam profile which shoots Riabi.

Slandaar/acryon, would you two support a hiplop wagon today?

Maybe.

I do think Hip is town, yes.

Candice and I wanted a hiplop wagon on D2, it was Slandaar that was a big part in fighting back at that and started pushing Espresso/Elyse instead. He then effectively dropped his Elyse case and called me out as scum for suspecting Espresso (among other things but this was obviously his primary reason). Slandaar has a very "do as I say, not as I do" approach to the game. This post in particular is a pretty big offender because it shows Slandaar trying to derail the hiplop wagon in favor of a wagon on me in the last days of D4. Predictably, hiplop joined up with him shortly thereafter.

The second big reason I want to see Slandaar gone is his now infamous "confirmed" farce. I'm sure everyone remembers this gem:

Slandaar is confirmed town.

Because Slandaar hasn't been able to successfully retort me, I encourage anyone else to try now that we have seen hiplop flip as a scum roleblocker. What's to stop a scum roleblocker from saying they blocked their partner to "confirm" him to the town? Slandaar says that scum would never do that because it "seems bad". Literally that's all he said in response to me. Do you agree with this? Is it bad for scum to help make their partner look more town? Why? I think it's a very sound strategy because hiplop afforded Slandaar the ability to come out and say, "Oh, I'm confirmed, I'm confirmed!" It's the exact same thing as a scum team no killing and then the fakeclaimed "doctor" saying they protected their scumbuddy that night or something. Given the buddy-buddy relationship of hiplop and Slandaar, I have no problems with this conclusion.

The third major reason is the three of Slandaar/DLA/Elyse framing me. The town player among you three needs to take a step back and put yourself in my shoes for a second. I did not realize hiplop was at L-1 or else I wouldn't have unvoted him. If it hasn't already been made quite apparent, I don't sit in front of the thread with a spreadsheet and a calculator analyze the perfect stratagem for taking other players out or playing "gotcha" games much like Slandaar has been doing. I unvoted hiplop because that was what my heart was telling me to do at the time after seeing Slandaar consistently throw everything at me because I had the audacity to stand up to him and his "confirmed town" remark. This whole game, whom among us has been willing to stand up to Slandaar? Myself and acryon. That's it. Others have thrown piddly suspicion his way (like hiplop, lol), but nothing really meaningful. As soon as I started asking Slandaar some tougher questions and shining a bit more light on his manuevers, he blows his gasket and goes as far as to try and derail the obvious scumwagon on hiplop to try and get me killed to presumably win the game.

[RedCoyote]

Red: why are you not voting me? It seems strange considering the speed at which you voted yesterday.

And let me save you some trouble: I have a reason for not voting.

Because it's most likely lylo and there are most likely two scum left?

[RedCoyote]

considering slandaar scum is all I do these days

I even asked you a question about him!

rc why do you think slandaarman stayed away from the hip wagon while his partner hard-bussed?

a subtle hint

Because he genuinely thought he could get me lynched. He has DLA/Elyse completely in his pocket despite what they say here. And I'm not even saying this to butter you up or anything, it's just they have both consistently proven that to me. I'm being very critical of both of them because I think one of them is town and isn't thinking about the game critically enough. I can understand suspecting me and agreeing with Slandaar. That's fine, that's what this game is all about. But they're accepting it blindly as though it's a foregone conclusion. They nodded in agreement when Slandaar said he was confirmed. My jaw dropped at that one. He has one of them eating out of his hand completely.

Then I saw you made a post where you said something to the effect of, "Slandaar isn't confirmed, but it doesn't matter", which was a much more palatable reaction even though it was a bit too indifferent for my taste. I took it to mean you saw he was bullshitting but that you didn't care because either/both 1) you thought Slandaar was town and/or 2) you wanted to lynch between hiplop/acryon yesterday so you paid it no mind.

[RedCoyote]

The third major reason is the three of Slandaar/DLA/Elyse framing me. The town player among you three needs to take a step back and put yourself in my shoes for a second.

Why is Bob conf-town?

As I said most pointedly in 1751 and 1921, I'm pretty convinced Bob is town. I don't like to use absolutes like conf-something or obvsomething, but I will not be voting Bob today so take that how you will. Another way to say this is I am willing to bet the game on Bob being town (I would not do this for you other three).

---

It was lylo yesterday and most likely 3 scum left.

Yeah, but hiplop was clearly the right play yesterday due to the JK(RB)/doctor situation. That was apparent to me from the start. I even said as much on D3. I am kind of glad D4 dragged on a bit because I think it more clearly exposed you as hiplop's most likely partner in my eyes.

Anyway, I don't think I should or ought to vote first. I know I'm town and I think I'm the worse position here lynch-wise. Therefore I'm going to be conservative with my vote today. If I get quicklynched, so be it, but I'm not going to come out immediately and vote you just to watch a hypothetical Elyse/DLA scumteam jump at that opportunity (again, not saying that's the case, just hypothesizing).

[RedCoyote]

Anyway, I don't think I should or ought to vote first. I know I'm town and I think I'm the worse position here lynch-wise. Therefore I'm going to be conservative with my vote today. If I get quicklynched, so be it, but I'm not going to come out immediately and vote you just to watch a hypothetical Elyse/DLA scumteam jump at that opportunity (again, not saying that's the case, just hypothesizing).

slandaar and hiplop voted you in lylo

why didn't the elyse/dla team hammer you back then

Fair point, I went back and looked at this and they probably could've pulled it off, too. Hm. Let me think on it it, Bob, because that practically eliminates them as a scum team leaving only two options from my point of view.

[RedCoyote]

And "not realizing" is necessarily more scummy then? What exactly was the scum benefit to unvoting there again?

Per what Bob brought up, there's no scum pairing that doesn't include Slandaar. It only makes sense given how they've coordinated hiplop's power in front of our noses anyway. I don't see any reason for scumhiplop to work with townSlandaar unless it somehow benefits hiplop's side. It's also no coincidence that he's been more suspicious toward me around the same exact time I started becoming more critical of his relationship with hiplop (and I have been on him for this since mid-D2). Likely he wanted to discredit me for uncovering what he cooked up with hiplop.

VOTE: Slandaar

[RedCoyote]

I love how you're trying to twist DLA/Elyse as not a scumteam into Slandaar is scum.

Lol, it's obvious you have made your decision and are already arguing with DLA like it's some hypothetical D6, so get on with it. I was frustrated at the game D4 because Slandaar had been able to successfully domineer the conversation and completely write the script of the game, but with the game stagnated like this, I no longer have any sympathy for the town. I've made my case and said my piece.* I've yet to see anyone seriously challenge me besides Slandaar's token "if hiplop and I were scum together, he wouldn't try to clear me... that would be a bad play", DLA regurgitating the same point he had over two weeks ago with a new (yet just as trivial) twist (as though he wasn't guilty of the same thing in 1669), Elyse who has buddied up to Slandaar this entire game without so much as a question for him in over a month. The most engagement I've gotten from Elyse thus far has been 1922 with no evidence or legwork to back it up whatsoever.

I'm not sitting here saying that it's obviously Slandaar. It isn't. You actually have to take the time to put 2 and 2 together vis-a-vis his interactions with hiplop, how he changed his reads on him, how he deliberately went out of his way to keep him alive on D2 and D3 and how he "directed" hiplop's power without so much as a protest from hiplop. But it sure is easier to just assume that Slandaar is telling you the truth about how hiplop confirmed him at his behest... but hiplop would never do that if Slandaar was scum with him! Only if he was town. Because, you know, that makes so much sense for hiplop to help the town out and all.

But, yeah, don't talk about that stuff, right, DLA? Right, Elyse? Because he's confirmed. He just is.

*For the record, this is exactly why I made 1919. I didn't even really want to bother taking the time to present this evidence to you two because I knew you were both too stubborn to give me a chance intellectually. So I was reluctant to even spend the time and energy on this. I'm glad I did though, even if I get lynched. Because at least I can then not feel any blame whatsoever for this loss and take a smidgen of pride in the appreciation I'll get in the dead thread for continuing to fight in the face of inevitability.

[RedCoyote]

Elyse, are you just waiting to vote until Slaandar orders you to, lol?

Once again, Slaandar is conflating two very separate issues. Of course now he's using hindsight to justify his earlier position as though it matters at all now what kush flipped. That's so disingenuous. Besides, scum know all the alignments anyway. Of course you're going to read players that haven't flipped yet as scum or town (e.g. me townreading Slaandar based on his Elyse/hiplop case early in the game), but the problem was that Slaandar, at the time, made a compelling case. I was townreading him based on his actions, not purely the reads themselves. It wouldn't have mattered if he chose Elyse/hiplop or Candice/Bob... it was how he presented it that mattered. In this DLA/kush scenario, all DLA had said was that kush was "unmotivated" and that it didn't jive with his old meta.

I could see someone agree with that, but you certainly don't go so far as to say (which Slaandar did) that DLA was town because he threw up some meta links and made a obvious point about activity parallels. Further, Slaandar was trying to say that DLA's read on kush was "brilliant" (it actually wasn't because, as has been pointed out, kush flipped town), and therefore DLA was town. So, like, he was saying DLA is town because his read on kush is brilliant. His read on kush is brilliant because DLA is town. That doesn't really work. I thought it was awkward and forced at the time and I still think it's awkward and forced now. It really matters because I could see these two as partners.

[RedCoyote]

RC, how likely is elyse scum?

I would say it's unlikely. Given that Slandaar + her could've simply lynched me by now, odds are that it's DLA & Slandaar. This also makes sense with how Slandaar has consistently been sprinkling unprovoked townreads on DLA over the course of the game (see 915, 1113, 1137, etc.) whilst pushing attacks on Elyse with the same consistency (many examples of this, 844, 967, 987, 1002, etc.) I think DLA misjudged Elyse and moved too soon to try and get me lynched today. The only motivation for Elyse to delay this long is as town that is having second thoughts seeing as though I don't think she's partnered with DLA or you. I don't see the scum motivation for Elyse to delay the day any longer.

[RedCoyote]

All I want to say is I tried my best, guys. I had fun playing with y'all regardless of what Elyse/Bob do. If I'm lynched, I look forward to playing with any of you again.

[RedCoyote]

Mass prod from a mass mod.

[RedCoyote]

To be honest, I didn't put much thought into the Csareo NK just because I didn't have that strong a read on him either way. Same with Bob. If anything I saw him as kind of scummy until the Espresso flip.

[RedCoyote]

Then it stands to reason that I'd have wanted to keep him alive, Slandaar.

[RedCoyote]

Phew, that was a close one. I had a lot of fun with this though. I got to be honest, I think the town could've played stronger than they did, but I'm also happy with my partners' games. I'm glad we got onto Candice early. Ironically, had Candice played weaker, he may have had more of a chance to use his powers. From the start of the game Candice was one of my worries. Thank for running this one, Sal. With the exception of that heavy-handedness at the end, I liked your style. I would advise adding links somewhere in your OP in future games just to make things a little more convenient for the players, but other than that I was pleased with the administrative side of the game. gg everyone.