Mini 1620 — The Mod is Using Comic Sans — GG

[Thesp]

Hello, everybody! As you may know, I prefer to open the game up with questions for people rather than an arbitrary vote. So, if you would, can you answer these two questions for me?

1. Do you like being scum in games?
2. How good are you at lying?
(Additionally, if this is one of your first games here on the site, welcome, and I'd like to know that as well.)

If you think my questions are stupid or unhelpful, please just answer them and I can move on to other things. If you think the questions are actually harmful or you think I am using them in lieu of participating, please state so. Thanks!

[Thesp]

If we think they are stupid and unhelpful, why would we still answer them?

Because you might be wrong about that, and they might be useful. If you think they won't help or hurt, answering them is the easiest way to not turn the first several days into some drama-magnet about whether or not you should answer questions you don't think are useful. The amount of effort required to answer them is trivial to you, and of some minor utility to me (and maybe others) in scumhunting. It's win-win.

This is entirely separate from if you think they are

harmful

to answer. If you think answering them will help scum more than helping town, then it's best to air that out now. (I don't think answering them is harmful, but I'm willing to entertain disagreement on that.)

[Thesp]

do you normally start games like this? if yes can you show me a game where you used those questions to find scum?

personally these questions looks to be a way to distract people from scum hunting.

I do indeed normally start games like this! Here is a post from the last game I played in, responding to a similar question:

These responses had already been curated in a previous game I was in, and is adapted from that answer:

Newbie 1515
Newbie 1498
Micro 311
Mini 1553
Newbie 1042
Newbie 890
Mini 905
Mini 900
Newbie 792

In fact, my distaste for what is commonly referred to as the "Random Voting Stage" of the game has a clear history, as noted here and here and here and here and here (where others also note that RVS isn't useful) and here.

I strongly disagree that the answers are useless (as Stavrogin) has argued. I think they're potentially useful, and as good a starting place as any for a game. I also find it weird that some people get so up in arms about not answering them and insisting that they're a distraction, as it is such a reaction that causes a bigger reaction than giving a simple answer to the question. (That's neither here nor there, I haven't found a strong correlation yet between refusing to answer opening questions and one's alignment.)

Is there any particular reason you don't want to answer the questions? (Related, if they're a distraction, why are you fanning the flames?) Do you think the several preceding posts by other players containing arbitrary votes is more productive than the questions I'm asking and the discussion I'm having?

[Thesp]

Is there any particular reason I don't want to answer them? yes, I believe they are pointless and distract away from the task at hand, which is scum hunting and finding scum

*headdesk*
How would you answering the questions be any more distracting than the approach you've taken so far? Would it have been less distracting if you'd just given answers and moved on?

[Thesp]

I'm trying to determine your alignment. How exactly is that distracting?

If you not answering the questions is an attempt to determine my alignment, then that's reasonable. (If not answering them is an attempt to avoid "distract[ing] away from the task at hand", as stated earlier, you have miserably failed. )

I'd like to hear answers from others as well.

[Thesp]

Thesp, do you SE for a lot of Newbie game?
Your RQS is like having a Kindergarten teacher at the after party.

A fair number. Do you mind humoring me and answering the questions, pretty please?

[Thesp]

Aparently you do this as both town and scum though so i'll just scratch my head on this one.

IMO he deserves suspicion cast on him

The sharp contrast here is poignant.

Even TheS admits it's not really effective.

No, actually, I didn't and don't. I think asking questions of people to get them engaged is miles better than arbitrary votes. Look, right now

because of the questions I've asked

, we're past the Arbitrary Voting Stage. My questions don't slow things down (because it's trivially easy to answer them and move on), and they give people a reason to post.

VOTE: Beck

Your reactions are weird to me in a way I'm not comfortable with.

[Thesp]

He didn't even answer his own questions...

That said, this is a valid point.
Thesp, why didn't you answer your own questions? Please do so.

I almost forgot to do this (and I usually don't until someone asks me to).

1. In person, I like being scum in games, though I think I'm worse at it. Online, I enjoy being scum less, and still don't think I'm as good at it (though better than in person - in person I have to try not to giggle when I lie to someone's face).
2. As above - I am terrible at lying in person. I feel like I'm better at it online, but I don't know if I'm "good" at it.

---

Do you keep metrics on how many people start off their answers with "In person ..." and how often they are scum? Because that seems like a weird thing to use to qualify your answer.

(This amuses me because I just finished answering this question myself by starting this way!) I hope to one day - I don't know that I have enough answers to the same question to do that yet (though I actually might, and I just haven't compiled it). It might be worth looking back at in the next day or two if I have the time.

[Thesp]

Could you please answer my original question

here it is again

can you show me a game where you used those questions to find scum?

I feel they give me a better sense of players' alignments. I'm not suggesting that scum out themselves with their answers*, but they help me give better context to what players say. (In actuality, I find that I'm more likely to get a better town read on someone based on their answers in context of the rest of their posting, which is helpful for reasons which should be obvious. In my last game, my read on Sky_Paladin is such an example.)

Beck, who do you think is scum? Because right now, it looks a lot like you're using your distaste of me asking questions of players as an excuse not to scumhunt.

I'm happy with my vote.

*It may actually be the case that scum give particular kinds of answers to questions when asked. I

think

I need a broader dataset than the one I currently have to properly ascertain that, and the only way I'll get that is by continuing to ask questions at the start of the game.

[Thesp]

I'm not sure who scum is atm. Kinda had to scum hunt when nobody's doing anything but answering your questions or voting me for attacking you for asking the questions.

So what are

you

doing to progress the game along? Hoping your arbitrary vote to start the game leads the scum to just out themselves?

[Thesp]

So since you dodged my question again...

What scum hunting are YOU doing?

I don't think I dodged your question at all. I answered it both generally and specifically.

Here's another question. Do you normally vote people who push back? I've found at least 1 other game where someone pushed back and you voted them, granted you were scum that game but I'm wondering if you have games where you do that as town also

I don't think there's a specific correlation with whether I vote for someone that "pushes back". Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. It's not conditioned by whether or not they push back, but by the tenor of their responses.

---

The problem I have with his line of questioning is he wants everyone to answer, which means he's going to keep us in this stage much longer than it needs to be.

This is a good point. It very clearly supports his reasoning as to why he thinks RQS is a waste of time. We can't just pause the game for everybody to answer two arbitrary questions. This results in too much useless information that distracts everyone else from scum hunting. The purpose of throwing out arbitrary questions is to provide us with a quick discussion topic and move on, not to force everyone to comply. However, I don't think everyone feels the need to answer the questions even though Thesp

explicitly

stated that he wants everyone to answer. What is happening right now is that approximately 2 or 3 people answer the question and the game shoots off in a new direction regardless if everyone answers the question or not. In the current state of the game, if everyone pauses and answers the two questions from before and not discuss and try to progress current developments, of course it is a waste of time and going to keep us in this stage longer.

Your reactions are weird to me in a way I'm not comfortable with.

@Thesp, can you explain to me why his reactions are weird?

Wait, what? How am I pausing the game? I'm pretty sure there's plenty that people can

and should

be doing regardless of my questions. Is it really an undue burden to answer two fairly easy questions? I don't understand this concern in the slightest. (And if someone popped in to answer my questions without commenting on anything else, I think that in itself is worthwhile information.)

As far as what's weird about Beck - a number of things. He's claimed that me asking questions is something I do as town and scum, but that I deserve suspicion for it. He's claiming it's a distraction, but

he's been the only one to actually make it a distraction

. He's criticized me for not scumhunting and for not advancing the gamestate, while spending the vast majority of his posts on whether me asking people questions is useful. I'm not comfortable with it.

What do you think of Clusk92?

[Thesp]

I don't think I dodged your question at all. I answered it both generally and specifically.

Wasn't really the answer I was looking for, but you did basically confirm that they don't really help you so my bad.

Reading comprehension fail!

[Thesp]

Let me know how you feel about this post.

I think opening with questions devolves into theory discussions only when people think it's more important to critique others playstyles and pontificate about their distaste for providing information, rather than answering two easy questions and playing the game. Other than that, I don't think this post of yours is all that interesting. (I like your next post, though.)

I'm happy with my vote. I don't think Phijkcho_Magikarp is scum.

[Thesp]

rather than answering two easy questions and playing the game.

Funny you say this, the questions aren't part of playing the game. People actually have to stop playing the game to answer your questions. The questions don't help you find scum, and they certainly don't help others to find scum.

So by asking them you are preventing the game from being played, you are slowing the game down.

This is one of the wrongest posts I have seen in several games. They

do

help me get a better sense of players, and I feel I've gotten a better sense of several players' alignments in this game (as well as previous games as stated) based on their reactions (yours included). The people who've answered have not "stopped playing" to answer questions - they've moved on to other things - unlike you. You're hellbent on critiquing my playstyle and refusing to provide requested information for who knows what reason. It's just terribad.

I am going to try to make this be my last response to you on this subject. I have seen zero compelling reason to change my vote.

(As an aside, I tend to be significantly less active on weekends. I will try to check in, but please forgive me if I'm less active this weekend.)

Mod:

I'd love a prod on Luca Blight (and LandoWise soon as well). Thanks!

[Thesp]

This is one of the wrongest posts I have seen in several games.

I'm curious why you didn't comment on llama's post where he said RQS is more counter productive than rvs.

His post wasn't terribly interesting to talk about, and he wasn't directly engaging me. I entirely disagree with him, but I would think that would be fairly obvious by this point.

---

In both posts 83 and 121, Lissa is talking out of both sides of her mouth about Beck:

And sense you are new, let me explain why.

The game usually starts with RVs cause nobody really has anything to go on, the goal is to get out of rvs quickly and start scum hunting. The act of rqs is another thing people to do, though less effective. Even TheS admits it's not really effective. The problem I have with his line of questioning is he wants everyone to answer, which means he's going to keep us in this stage much longer than it needs to be. It also doesn't really help the game progress. Now I know I'd probably get back flack for starting in with him, but I don't really mind the pressure, I love pressure.

I don't like this. It can't possibly be scummy if it's something Thesp does EVERY SINGLE GAME.

---

That said. As a whole I don't find Beck particularly scummy, or Thesp. I feel like this whole Beck/Thesp thing is more of a distraction than simply answering the questions would have been, but I don't find Beck particularly scummy for it right now. I don't find them particularly townish for it either, though I feel like the way Beck is sticking his neck out with this resistance is somewhat townish.

What I find town about how Beck is acting is that he is sticking his neck out with this resistance to Thesp.

and this is my last post on the topic

My post is not wrong, deep down you know my post is actually the most truthful statement made this game.

What is the goal to this game? To find scum and lynch them. Do these questions help you find scum? no they don't.

I won't be getting lynched today

so if you are town, your vote is being wasted. If you are scum carry on.

I don't really like this (the bolded), though.

I'm not understanding exactly what you're saying. Are you meaning 83 & 121 are contradictory, or that she's wishy-washy on Beck?

[Thesp]

(Beck/thedudesabides mafia together?)

No, Beck/Clusk92 together. (Clusk92's opening feels an awful lot like an abbreviated version of a post I made in a game recently where my scum buddy was embroiled in a prominent controversy, and I was interested in dismissing it and pushing an entirely different direction.)

---

I would expect this exact same exchange no matter what alignment Thesp and Beck are.

Do you think my vote is on Beck because I disagree with his playstyle?

---

Emogirl was claiming scum in a subtle way.

What? I missed this. Can you point it out?

Let's lynch Luca Blight for avoiding this game.

Vote: Luca

I actually really like this.
VOTE: Luca Blight

I would gladly move back to Beck (or to Clusk92) in a heartbeat.

[Thesp]

I would expect this exact same exchange no matter what alignment Thesp and Beck are.

Do you think my vote is on Beck because I disagree with his playstyle?

To a certain extent, yes I think you are voting him for pushing on you for that comment.

I am stating that my vote on him (and thinking he's scum) is for his reaction separate from his disagreement with my questions. Do you think I am misguided in this assertion, or do you think I am deceitful in stating that? (You seem to have implied both at various points.)

---

I'm still not feeling the Phijkchu_Magikarp wagon at all. I do want to see an answer to Josh_B's question immediately preceding this post. I also want to see significant posts from Luca Blight and Clusk92 in the next 24 hours, or see replacements. (Preferably the former.)

[Thesp]

Thesp, why is Phij town?

Part of it's gut, part of it's that he agrees with me on Beck (which consciously and/or unconsciously affects how I feel about him), and part if it's that his wagon feels a lot like a wagon of convenience more than a wagon of scumhunting. I probably should do some meta-research on him, but I'm probably too lazy/disinterested in that aspect of the game to delve into it too deeply. I just did a quick skim of a previous game (to see how he speaks compared to this one), and it doesn't seem all that distinctly different.

I'm not sure what the intention behind this vote was particularly, to appear as if he is doing something useful? Why not wait until either had happened before voting this slot? I don't see how it helps Town wagoning a player who isn't here.

I'm partly affected by a game I ran earlier this year, where in D1 the Mafia were far more lurky than others. This seems to be more of a trend in games I've played lately. I think there's a vested interest in getting everyone out and talking, and when a player is active elsewhere but

not

here, that

should

set off alarm bells. Historically, I've personally been leery when players lurker-hunt, but my perspective on that has 180'd in the past year, and I think the general meta that frowns upon lurker-hunting is bad for the town.

What do you think about TheDudeAbides? What did you think of his vote for you?

[Thesp]

TheDudeAbides started the wagon/brought attention to me not being here, was very gung-ho in his approach as he admitted, then switched to Magikarp, expressing his desire to speed-lynch him. I don't know what to make of it. Overall it seems like a scattergun Townie approach.

ThSp, did you vote me with a lynch in mind, or was it to try and draw me out or what? I saw you asked the mod to prod me a bit earlier, which is fair enough, but I'm confused why you would agree that I should be lynched when I hadn't posted anything. Do you really think posting elsewhere but being slow to start this game is that big of a scum-tell?

Do you have no indication of who could be scum right now (I noted you thought Magikarp was Town) so are just using that because it's the best reason you have?

Why have you stopped voting Beck? Do you think his resistance to your questions was genuine?

It's funny - I asked you about TheDudeAbides because he was the one that brought my attention to your early coasting. Yet your responses mentioned his interest in speed-lynching Phijkchu_Magikarp made me go back and look, and I'd forgotten he was the one that expressed a desire to do that while his vote was sitting on you, which weirds me out. But I think I agree on your town read of him because I think the gung-ho attitude is a deliberately adopted persona, and I like the lines of questioning he's gone down.

When I vote, I vote with the expectation that my vote could help lynch someone. To some extent, it's to draw you out, and it's to state unequivocally that prod dodges are not acceptable long term. (The phrase itself even gets under my skin, and I think it's bad for the town to let it slide by without doing anything about it.) And since I voted you, you started contributing, so my vote worked! (That's how logic works, right? Something something

post hoc ergo propter hoc

.)

I do have some indication of who's scum - I still really think Beck is scum. I wish I knew for sure if Beck was scum, because if he is, Egg is very likely to be a partner I think. I'm a coin toss on the burgeoning emogirl123 wagon, partly because I'm still not sure what I make of you yet, and Egg's vote on her is simultaneously genuine-looking and exactly the same thing I would expect Beck's partner to do. (CONFIRMATION BIAS WOOOOOOOOOOOOO) There are one or two more possibilities out there for me at the moment, but I'm either awaiting further responses/content from them, or I'm trying to make sure I'm not suspicious of them just for disagreeing with me.

UNVOTE: Luca Blight
VOTE: Beck

I realize I'm probably tilting at windmills at the moment, given the number of people that seem to have written Beck off, but I just haven't seen anything townish from him at all.

[Thesp]

I'm so very, very happy with my vote.

[Thesp]

I mean he even voted me cause of my refusal to answer them.

This continues to be incorrect.

[Thesp]

Aparently you do this as both town and scum though so i'll just scratch my head on this one.

IMO he deserves suspicion cast on him

The sharp contrast here is poignant.

Even TheS admits it's not really effective.

No, actually, I didn't and don't. I think asking questions of people to get them engaged is miles better than arbitrary votes. Look, right now

because of the questions I've asked

, we're past the Arbitrary Voting Stage. My questions don't slow things down (because it's trivially easy to answer them and move on), and they give people a reason to post.

VOTE: Beck

Your reactions are weird to me in a way I'm not comfortable with.

What reactions did you mean here if not Beck's refusal to answer?

I summed it up a bit earlier here:

As far as what's weird about Beck - a number of things. He's claimed that me asking questions is something I do as town and scum, but that I deserve suspicion for it. He's claiming it's a distraction, but

he's been the only one to actually make it a distraction

. He's criticized me for not scumhunting and for not advancing the gamestate, while spending the vast majority of his posts on whether me asking people questions is useful. I'm not comfortable with it.

He has a large number of posts, and the vast majority of it is talking about how he thinks RQS is stupid. And he's had plenty of opportunities since - at the very least, even a passing comment on the emogirl123 wagon would be worthwhile. He's continuing to attack me (/RQS) while sitting his vote on Phijkchu_Magikarp. Reading his posts is just awful, bizarre play that I'm having a hard time seeing a town player do.

[Thesp]

I'm still not feeling Philkcho_Magikarp scum vibes at all. I'm inclined to think he communicates poorly and that's leading to votes. I'm also leery of most people on that wagon. I would switch to emogirl123 if it was necessary for a lynch (I don't feel like I've learned much about her alignment but I don't like her approach so far), but I'm still preferring Beck by a mile.

And I sure hope it's very, very clear that we shouldn't be lynching anyone before LandoWise/LandoWise's replacement even

posts

in the thread today.

[Thesp]

He needs to start pushing his Beck scumread a bit more, especially as he strongly feels Magikarp is Town.

Eh, I'm not sure what else there is to say on that front. I hope it's pretty clear where I stand on Beck. I still don't think he's putting himself out there in meaningful ways, and his push on me is way, way stronger than his push on the person he's voting. I still haven't found a reason to think he's town.

There are a couple of people that need to pipe up more. I'm interested in LlamaFluff catching up, and on LandoWise's replacement. I do appreciate the uptick in posting from you, now I'd like to see it from some other lower-content-contributors.

[Thesp]

I'm still not feeling Philkcho_Magikarp scum vibes at all. I'm inclined to think he communicates poorly and that's leading to votes. I'm also leery of most people on that wagon. I would switch to emogirl123 if it was necessary for a lynch (I don't feel like I've learned much about her alignment but I don't like her approach so far), but I'm still preferring Beck by a mile.

have you ever played with PM before? What makes you think he communicates poorly? Say you get your way and lynch me, who do you go after when I flip town? Who do you think is the scum on the PM wagon (and yes I know you already think I am scum on the wagon...)

I have not played with Phijkchu_Magikarp before. A quick skim of posts in other games of his reveals a similar posting style in those as well.

If you were to flip town, I'd actually be somewhat interested in Phijkchu_Magikarp, because if he's scum, I'd bet that Flubbernugget, Luca Blight, and/or massive are likely partners as the emogirl123 counterwagon (more likely Flubbernugget and massive offhand, I'd think). If both you and Phijkcho_Magikarp are both town, I'd be pretty lost at the moment. (emogirl123? I dunno.)

---

Let me think a bit betweena Flubber and PM vote. First instinct is actually Flubber vote more than PM at this point.

You've piqued my curiosity. Whyfor? Do you think it's a likely scenario that Flubbernugget is scum and Phijkchu_Magikarp is not?

[Thesp]

Beck, Egg, you, TDA.

I'm pretty comfortable right now with the Magikarp wagon for D1. The game is starting to stall, and I don't think there are going to be any better solutions created in the next 5 days. There's no point waiting til the last minute for this.

I think the writing is pretty much on the wall for today. That said, I think there's value in getting more from Phijcku_Magikarp, and getting at least one post from LandoWise's replacement (as that player slot has been absent for the entirety of the day). If needed, I will move my vote before deadline to ensure a lynch.

[Thesp]

Let's just end the day

Do you think it's useful to get a post from a player who hasn't posted all day? Or is it more important to end the day before such a thing could possibly happen?

[Thesp]

I'm reading up and I'll post something of substance tonight!

Welcome to the game! Thanks for replacing in.

[Thesp]

Just quickly checking in - I don't have time to post right now, but will post substantively on Monday morning. I have no desire to see this no-lynch today and will move my vote to make it happen (even to Phijkchu-Magikarp, who has been incredibly uninspiring in the last few days).

[Thesp]

Yeah, LlamaFluff can be lean-town for now for Post 100; not for the dislike of RQS, which is null either way to me, but the vote I do like.

What do you think of this vote in light of his switch off Phijkchu-Magikarp to Flubbernugget?

(...As I'm reading Flubbernugget and LlamaFluff's back-and-forth, and an iso of Flubbernugget, I'm actually quite appreciating the pressure on Flubbernugget.)

1. Not that I'm accusing Magikarp of optimal play, but it's really terribly suboptimal play for scum to claim VT on the way down. I've only done it a couple of times as scum when I was trying to sacrifice myself on behalf of a buddy under pressure. It virtually guarantees being lynched.

I agree with this a lot.

---

Spoiler: Weird Things Beck Says

I find him really scummy because he's provided no real tangible reason for scum reading me and he's basically done nothing else.

PM and thesp could easily be lumped into that pile

Just because you keep saying things about me doesn't make them true. =P

---

I'd say Thesp is scum because he is currently parking his vote and willing to add to my wagon as soon as there is a shift in momentum.

I absolutely agree that I'm willing to lynch you over Phijkchu_Magikarp, and if it comes down to it being you or him, I'm voting you.

---

LlamaFluff weirded me out earlier, but on some further reflection I actually quite like the direction he's going right now.

UNVOTE: Beck
VOTE: Flubbernugget

As of my post, we have slightly under 36 hours to lynch. I'm unavailable tomorrow night, but should be available up until ~5 hours from deadline. I will move my vote at that time as needed to secure a lynch, and am strongly against a no-lynch. It might be clear-ish what my lynch preferences would be today, but as of this moment, I'll move my vote among these people, in this order, to secure a lynch if I think it's conceivable:

1. Beck
2. Flubbernugget
3. emogirl123
4. Phijkchu_Magikarp

[Thesp]

From what I understand Thesp's only support for his Beck vote at the moment is PM, and he is using this as an excuse to never vote PM. I can't find anywhere in Thesp's iso where he said he was willing to lynch PM. All he said is he values a lynch over no-lynch and will hammer. He never intends to influence PM's wagon.

Wait, what? I'm pretty sure I've been pretty willing to lynch several people over Pijkchu_Magikarp, and my reasons for thinking he's town aren't solely his Beck vote. I've been trying to influence away from PM's wagon.

I know he said he is willing to switch his vote to PM at the deadline. This is an empty vote, he is voting on the principle that a lynch is achieved, not because the person being lynched is PM. This has nothing to do with PM and he can be absolved of any negativity that results from the lynch.

I agree on that part (save the "be absolved of any negativity that results from the lynch", as I seem to already be getting some negativity on it ).

Thesp is not voting PM because PM shares his point of view in regards to Beck. He is using this as an excuse to distance himself from discussing any wagons and parking his vote on Beck.

Again, my reasons for thinking PM is town are more than his stance on Beck. And can you point out wagons that you think I should be discussing that I haven't? Because until you support this claim, I'm gonna think you're just full of crap here.

If he said multiple times he'd vote PM then his vote would be on there. He said multiple times that he doesn't want to vote PM and would hammer as a last resort (which is the reason why he isn't part of the wagon). Now that I read this again, maybe we were talking about the same thing. I don't think it's accurate to say he said multiple times he'd vote PM when he will actively derail and stall the PM wagon if possible. Even if he hammers, he will not be considered part of the wagon. I didn't understand the point you were trying to make in response to my question.

I agree that I shouldn't be considered "part of the wagon", even if I have to move my vote there to achieve a lynch under pressure of deadline.

[Thesp]

I'm not seeing any great quick pushes on Beck or Flubbernugget.

UNVOTE: Flubbernugget
VOTE: emogirl123

I will switch to Phijkchu_Magikarp in ~8 hours if need be for a lynch, but I vastly prefer emogirl123 over Phijkchu_Magikarp, if those are our only realistic choices at this point.

[Thesp]

I feel both vindicated and wishing I was wrong.

I'm really interested in what Flubbernugget has to say today. I'm going to try to get some real substance down tomorrow, but today is busy. As a heads-up, I have an impending V/LA next week (from 11/18 - 11/23) where I'll be able to check in occasionally, but long/substantive posts will be difficult to manage.

[Thesp]

Spending the next 2 days at the hospital with my wife, will read up when I get free time.

I hope everything is alright. Be well, and take care of yourself.

-----

@Thesp - Im not too sure Flubber kills massive when that was one of the only people defending him. Granted its foolish to think of him as a solid town read here, but not overly bad. You are reading both emo and Flubber as scum though it would seem?

I hadn't considered the nightkill from that perspective. I've since looked back through massive's posts. I'm not sure that massive's "defense" of Flubber is all that strong. He doesn't mention Flubbernugget except near the end of the day when emogirl123 asks him what he's going to do with his vote, and he says "I'm not lynching Flubber, I'm not lynching PM.". I could agree that makes him a slightly less juicy target for a Flubbernugget nightkill. I am a bit more curious about the people he spent most of the day with now, especially since he wasn't terribly scattershot, and since I really don't like TheDudeAbides's entrance to this day.

I am trying to decide if I don't like emogirl123's play or if I think she's scum. I think her play continues to be awful into today, and I'm not sure if it's jarring because it's not coming from a town perspective, or if it's just weird. Comparing from the only other game I was in with her (NY 170: Georgetown II), her play in this game feels different, but the reaction to her feels very similar. (She was town in that game.) I definitely thought yesterday that she was more likely to be scum than Phijkchu_Magikarp, and I'm still suspicious of her. To some extent, I want to wagon her alone today given her claim so we don't risk exposing any power roles today. I'm still on the fence with her, but at the very least I wouldn't mind if she eats rope today.

I don't want to pursue Beck today for reasons.

Josh_B is weird to me because I totally see what all the people on his wagon are saying, and I agree with them. His posts at the end of the day yesterday all feel like "We've got our PM lynch, let's just do it and get it over with".

If I were forced to choose a scumteam right now, it'd likely be emogirl123/Josh_B/Egg. I'm giving the accuracy of that prognostication being correct at around 5%, primarily because I'm skeptical that mafia would all be #2/3/4 on the lynch wagon on D1.

---

Thesp, I think I know why you think you see a connection between Beck and myself. I'm sure it will become clear later. Now just isn't the time to discuss it (and no, I'm not softclaiming masons).

I'm bringing this up again, because my curiosity has been piqued since it was said, and I still haven't imagined a good reason for it. Can you explain?

[Thesp]

The thing that gives me the most pause about Josh_B today is that his opening post feels very genuine to me.

[Thesp]

Quick post from my phone. I don't think emogirl123 is town. I think there is a reasonable chance she is scum, so of my scum reads, there's some preference to push on emogirl over the others in case I'm wrong about any of my scum reads.

(When did I say I thought emogirl123 was town?)

[Thesp]

Egg:

I'm currently out of town and have unreliable internet access. I don't see my wagon going up to L-1 but I'll claim VT. glhf guys

[Thesp]

This sentence is the basis for my read on both Thesp and Emogirl.

I want to wagon her alone today given her claim so we don't risk exposing any power roles today.

Thesp believes that emogirl is town/ wants to lynch her despite her being town.

I can see how this does look scummy.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Thesp

I've found his play in general to be suspect this game, I will probably go into more detail later.

Did you read the post that Josh_B is referring to?

[Thesp]

This sentence is the basis for my read on both Thesp and Emogirl.

I want to wagon her alone today given her claim so we don't risk exposing any power roles today.

Thesp believes that emogirl is town/ wants to lynch her despite her being town.

I can see how this does look scummy.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Thesp

I've found his play in general to be suspect this game, I will probably go into more detail later.

Did you read the post that Josh_B is referring to?

Yes. There was a misrep on Josh's part - you didn't say you thought emo was Town.

Can you explain, then, why you said this?

This sentence is the basis for my read on both Thesp and Emogirl.

I want to wagon her alone today given her claim so we don't risk exposing any power roles today.

Thesp believes that emogirl is town/ wants to lynch her despite her being town.

I can see how this does look scummy.

Because it looks like in this post you're agreeing with Josh_B's presumption that I think "emogirl123 is town/wants to lynch her despite being town".

In fact, I'm having a hard time reading your response in any other way.

Is there any reason, if you

did

think Josh_B was misrepresenting my stance on emogirl123, why you didn't disabuse Josh_B of his misrepresentation based on a plain-language reading of my post, rather than just add your vote and simple ascension (with vague reference to other reasons for your vote)? It sure looks to me like you're looking for a reason to lynch someone rather than trying to find scum.

As a reminder, I'm going to be V/LA for a while after tomorrow, so if you have anything you want to address to me in the next ~18 hours or so, please do so soon. I will try to check in by phone periodically, but will be quite busy with my biggest vacation of the year. Thanks.

[Thesp]

The whole fact that people keep talking about a policy lynch when its very clear that was a misused term from emo just makes me think the wagon has a weak foundation.

I agreed with this strongly on D1. I would agree with it more today if PM flipped town, but I"m not to the point yet where I think it's completely not true and other possibilities are just as likely or more likely.

Am I missing something here? Phijkchu_Magikarp did indeed flip town.

[Thesp]

I was about to walk away, but I can't shake it and this bothers me too much.

VOTE: Luca Blight

[Thesp]

I'm sure you do have a hard time reading my response any other way, Thesp, considering you only focused on that part and ignored the rest of my post where I clearly explained it.

Now you're just full of crap. I trimmed it for clarity, but now I'll requote

the entire post I questioned

:

This sentence is the basis for my read on both Thesp and Emogirl.

I want to wagon her alone today given her claim so we don't risk exposing any power roles today.

Thesp believes that emogirl is town/ wants to lynch her despite her being town.

I can see how this does look scummy.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Thesp

I've found his play in general to be suspect this game, I will probably go into more detail later.

Please highlight the part of your post that

isn't

agreeing with "Josh_B's presumption that I think 'emogirl123 is town/wants to lynch her despite being town'."

Also, please answer the previous question here:

Is there any reason, if you

did

think Josh_B was misrepresenting my stance on emogirl123, why you didn't disabuse Josh_B of his misrepresentation based on a plain-language reading of my post, rather than just add your vote and simple ascension (with vague reference to other reasons for your vote)?

I really want everyone to take a hard look at what Luca Blight is saying here.

This is now by far the strongest scum read I've had this game. Seriously, look at his ISO from when he started voting me in 606, 611, 638, and 639, and determine for yourself whether it looks like someone hunting scum, or someone just trying to lynch someone.

[Thesp]

Comparing from the only other game I was in with her (NY 170: Georgetown II), her play in this game feels different

To me it seems like she tried to do borderline scummy things in both games to get people to vote for her. What difference are you seeing?

I think in NY 170, she was engaging multiple people and hunting scum among multiple targets. In this game, she seems to have been non-committal to start, then parks on Phijkchu_Magikarp and doesn't seem terribly interested in considering anyone else.

What do you think about Luca Blight?

---

TheDudeAbides: My general read on Flubber didn't suddenly change. I'm curious why yours did an apparent 180.

It didn't. I've never been scum reading Flubber. I had some concerns and llamafluff raised some others, so I took a harder look at him.

Okay.

In the game that you looked at for Emogirl, Thesp, was she scum or town?

She was town in the game I've been referring to, NY 170: Georgetown II.

[Thesp]

So, when you said:

This sentence is the basis for my read on both Thesp and Emogirl.

I want to wagon her alone today given her claim so we don't risk exposing any power roles today.

Thesp believes that emogirl is town/ wants to lynch her despite her being town.

I can see how this does look scummy.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Thesp

I've found his play in general to be suspect this game, I will probably go into more detail later.

...this "more detail" at that time, was:

The reason I think Thesp is scum is mainly based on gut feeling. Most of his posts have been very middle of the road - he was very laid-back on day one despite scumreading Beck and townreading Magikarp. Basically I could see potential scum-motivation behind his play.

(I redacted the part that was simply reiterating what you said in 606. I also redacted the other half of your post, as it was exclusively based on my vote on you, which had not been placed when you nodded in ascension to Josh_B's post in 606.)

Suuuuuuuper happy with my vote.

And if it's the case that I'm 'just trying to lynch someone', why wouldn't I have just kept my vote on emo (the easy option) or Josh (potential wagon forming). Why would I go for someone else, if that were the case?

As the third voter on my wagon when there's been a general murmur of suspicion against me, I'm curious why I wouldn't be the "easy option". As far as why you wouldn't go after someone else, I'm looking forward to find out why, after you flip!

[Thesp]

Who does that; vote an inactive player when they supposedly have a scumread on someone else?

Who lurker votes? Lots of people - myself included lately. (Heck, MeMe's title was Post or Perish, an homage to her persistence in doing this.)

Were you substantively posting elsewhere on the site when TheDudeAbides and I voted for you? Did my vote stay on you after you contributed, or did it revert to my scum read at the time? Are you really going after me for lurker voting?

[Thesp]

Alright, I'm going to be unlikely to post substantively for a good while from this point until a week from now. As mentioned before, I will try to check in from my phone periodically. Thanks!

[Thesp]

Thesp never wavered in his view that Magikarp was Town, yet made no real effort to save him despite having clear scumreads elsewhere.

I don't get why people have been saying this, when I thought I went to some effort to try and get several other people lynched instead of Phijkchu_Magikarp.

^ that is actually a good point about thesp. Also the fact that he was willing to lynch him despite calling him town doesn't sit well with me

I was willing to lynch PM over No Lynch, but not much else. Why doesn't that sit well with you?

Still super happy with my Luca Blight vote.

[Thesp]

Sorry guys, my look back is getting delayed. Baby came today

And I almost forgot - congrats! =D

[Thesp]

I was willing to lynch PM over No Lynch, but not much else. Why doesn't that sit well with you?

the fact that you were conceding a deadline lynch with plenty of time in the day. You just didn't seem sincere in your town read

Where? How much time was left in the day?

[Thesp]

Just a quick checkin phone post before I get to my scheduled game of Die Macher (as I'm still V/LA, don't forget), but I disagree with any suggestion that Luca Blight has refuted my case or arguments against him, he just disagrees with me which is unsurprising.

Flubbernugget, is there something specifically you're looking for me to respond to/answer? If so, please highlight and I'll try to give you a quick response tomorrow. Otherwise, it may be Monday before I can do anything substantive. Thanks for understanding.

[Thesp]

Hello! I'm back in my home city after a lovely vacation. Thank you for your patience with me. I'm going to try and catch up this afternoon.

I agree with Bookitty's analysis of Josh_B's quote as likely a slip, and want to hear answers to her questions from #828 (which are the same sort of questions I was to ask). I am extraordinarily skeptical of the Doc claim as well. I'm happy with a Josh_B lynch after everyone has a chance to come in and weigh in. This should happen soon, as there isn't much daylight left - 75 hours as of my post.

[Thesp]

The point is that if you are a doc, scum will have to kill you, and if you don't die, then we can revisit your lynch.
It's more about playing correctly than believing your claim.

I have previously thought this way, but with the proliferation of possible mafia roles with abilities, I'm no longer as convinced as I used to be that leaving docs alive simply because of the claim is ideal play.

Josh_B, I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that TheDudeAbides or Lissa must be the SK, despite having read your posts.

[Thesp]

Well okay, but those aren't new roles, so it's not as if their presence should cause Thesp to change his mind about lynching claimed docs.

You can actually find the post where I started reconsidering my stand on docs here. My default position had always been to leave docs alive until we're close to or at LyLo, and that particular game (though with a semi-known setup) made me reconsider that. (I also think multiple scum having roles is more common nowadays than it used to be. Also worth noting that in that game I just linked to, the player claiming doc was scum, which may color my view.

[Thesp]

Thesp, could you explain how that game fits in with your 851?
Or at least what about it made you change your mind?

Sure. Going into the Newbie game linked there, my default opinion was that claimed docs should be left alive simply because it leaves the mafia in the position that they will have to kill them (if they're a real doc) or risk missing their night kill. In that Newbie game, there was a strong incentive for a Mafia roleblocker to stay alive even for just one more night, and incredibly beneficial for the town to lynch a Mafia roleblocker. It made me see that there are some games and scenarios where the risk of mislynching a doc are outweighed by the possibility of getting scum, especially a power-role scum.

Also given that this game doesn't have a cop we're following (who requires doc protection), and other potential power roles haven't been outed, the utility of a doc at this stage is considerably less useful (and the overall win % hit associated with losing a doc is lessened).

I fully expect I'll be voting Josh_B by the end of the day to secure a lynch. I also fully expect to pursue Luca Blight again tomorrow.

[Thesp]

Also given that this game doesn't have a cop we're following (who requires doc protection),

It doesn't?

"Following the cop" is an expression referring to when a cop has claimed and lives on, presumably because they're protected by a doctor, and the town follows their lead. This game does not fit that scenario, as there is no claimed cop whose direction we are following, much less a claimed cop.

[Thesp]

Oh this is fun. now we can argue about whether or not there's a cop. Let's fish that role out too.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying at all. (It should be very, very clear that I am not advocating any sort of claim here, cop or otherwise. I'm pretty sure I don't even want a counter-claim to you here.)

[Thesp]

Oh this is fun. now we can argue about whether or not there's a cop. Let's fish that role out too.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying at all. (It should be very, very clear that I am not advocating any sort of claim here, cop or otherwise. I'm pretty sure I don't even want a counter-claim to you here.)

In that case you should definitely be voting me to either prove or disprove my claim.

I'm happy with a Josh_B lynch after everyone has a chance to come in and weigh in.

[Thesp]

Catching up on ~8 pages of posts!

And Thesp saying that whe should keep from outing any PR's also gave me pause because it looks like scum trying to get town cred and also indicates to me that it is more likely than not that a scum kill was blocked.

I still don't understand why your immediate presumption is that a kill was blocked last night. I also don't understand this post in light of your later criticism of me when you think I'm trying to bait a cop claim (which I'm not - just to be clear I'm not advocating any more claims right now).

---

Why are you super happy with your Luca vote?

Surely if you're super happy with it, you should be trying to convince others onto the wagon, rather than merely saying you are happy about it with no explanation?

Coming back to this. When I play, I

frequently

say that I'm happy with my vote. (A cursory look through my games should confirm this.) I like to be crystal clear about where my vote is and my stance with it. I am indeed reinforcing my desire to have you lynched. I also have no strong desire to re-quote everything I said about you - I feel as though my case is strong enough to stand on its own and don't want to clutter up the thread with reptitive drivel that doesn't add anything new to the conversation. To that end, when I say I'm still happy with my vote, I'm subtly reminding everyone about where my stance is, and inviting them to double-check why I have that stance if they're unsure.

This is doubly the case when I'm on stated V/LA. I wanted to check in, provide a brief thought or two, and continue to remind people that I think the Luca Blight wagon is a viable, reasonable, and righteous one. You suggest I ignored your points, which is entirely mistaken. I

disagree

with youre points. To some extent, this is expected - I'm arguing that you're scum, and you have every reason to argue that you're not (regardless of your alignment). For you then to suggest I'm ignoring you is particularly dishonest. I obviously don't think the case is terrible against you, I've stated it's the strongest scumread I have this game (and still have - I'd still rather lynch you over Josh_B, but I'd be happiest if we could lynch both of you today).

---

I mean, I didn't hack his account.
And I wish that he wouldn't lurk, but when he's posted it hasn't been bad.
Those posts are examples of that.

Wait, I'm confused. You say "when he's posted it hasn't been bad". But you cited posts 611 & 652 as examples of such, which I think are two of the most egregiously bas posts in the entire game. What gives?

---

He previously gave reasons for voting me, and I explained why his reasons were complete shit. He ignored my rebuttals, and suddenly pops back into the thread reiterating that he is super happy with his vote, without any reasoning. The post in which he said it was in response to suspicions against him, so it seems suspect to me, because it's like he's trying to put me in the spotlight as part of his defence, without explaining why he is scumreading me.

Based on Thesp's previous argument, his entire reason for voting me is purely OMGUS, and because I was third on his wagon.

That's not even close. Can you also cite where I am voting you because you are third on my wagon? You keep citing this, but that's not at all in my reasons for voting for you. (I did, however, cite it against your argument that I wasn't an easy wagon.)

If you don't remember my arguments against you, it's dishonest to say I have none. Go back and look at 629, 642, and 659. You followed a wagon on me for a crap reason (even agreeing that Josh_B was misrepresenting my stance on emogirl123 while you perpetuated this misrepresentation when you voted). You then stated "I've found his play in general to be suspect this game, I will probably go into more detail later", "As I said, other things about your play have generally seemed off to me. I will review it in a bit", "There is more in this Thsp case, which I will get to a bit later", and "I will crack on with my Thesp case shortly". When pressed about this case of yours, you said this:

The reason I think Thesp is scum is mainly based on gut feeling. Most of his posts have been very middle of the road - he was very laid-back on day one despite scumreading Beck and townreading Magikarp. Basically I could see potential scum-motivation behind his play. I also agree with Josh that his reason for wanting emo lynched - so we don't out another power - feels scummy to me...it just does. It's like, a cop out reason or something.

The only time he has been forceful with his opinion all game is now, in a blatant showing of OMGUS....where he attacks not Josh for misrepping him, but me for acknowledging the misrep, which is laughable. He has suddenly turned from laid-back to aggressive over something that isn't even there. Bolding and underlining bits of his post for effect, as if he has blatantly outed scum or something, which is far from the case.

He has been spooked by the wagon forming on him, in my opinion

Only the first paragraph was reasons from when you first voted me. You read like someone who got called out on your vote, huffed and puffed a lot, then finally had to cover up the fact that you really didn't have anything in the first place.

That's

why I'm super happy with my vote.

---

Why are you super happy with your Luca vote?

Surely if you're super happy with it, you should be trying to convince others onto the wagon, rather than merely saying you are happy about it with no explanation?

@Thesp

I hope this has been answered above, but please let me know if you need further clarification.

Looks like Flubbernugget agrees with me on the case issue:

I'm glad I reread that because it strengthened my scum read on you.

You claim to have a case on him, and when you finally start building a case it's all based on information after the post.

His attacks are also more contextual while your defenses are more generic and feel like they can be "plugged in" to several other scenarios.

652 is shit. Your case is gut and you could't just say that when you said you were making a case?

I could probably go on but I'm lazy.

VOTE: luca

Agreed 1000%.

---

Egg, what do you think of Luca Blight? Your rundown in 810 covers 5 pages, a substantial portion of which covered Luca Blight interactions, yet your sole comment on him is "I like Beck's points against Emo and Luca's point against Thesp". What's up?

---

Thesp, could you explain how that game fits in with your 851?
Or at least what about it made you change your mind?

I also fully expect to pursue Luca Blight again tomorrow.

What do you mean pursue 'again'? You haven't pursued or even explained it at all yet, despite my consistent prodding you to do so.

I like how you keep mentioning me in posts irrelevant to it, though.

Wait, what? Are you suggesting I haven't been pursuing you today?

Straw poll of all players:

is there any other player that doesn't think I've pursued Luca Blight today? (Also, are you continuing to use my V/LA as not responding to you? Yeesh.)

---

Guys, we're gonna need to speedwagon someone. 2 days to deadline.

Agreed.

UNVOTE: Luca Blight
VOTE: Josh_B

I hope it's abundantly clear that I'd be happy to move my vote back to Luca Blight if there's a chance of that lynch happening. If I had my choice, we'd lynch both Luca Blight and Josh_B today. If we want to leave a claimed doc alive for a night to see what happens, I'm happy to switch the order we lynch them in.

[Thesp]

I'm just wondering what purpose Thesp's vote on me is serving, when he is clearly unwilling to push it, despite my repeated asking him to, and he now say he fully expects to vote Josh at the end of the day and leave me for tomorrow.

So why not vote Josh now, then? You're clearly unwilling/unable to engage in debate with me over why I must be scum, so what is your vote doing sat on me still?

This is just scummy as fuck:

Thesp, could you explain how that game fits in with your 851?
Or at least what about it made you change your mind?

I fully expect I'll be voting Josh_B by the end of the day to secure a lynch. I also fully expect to pursue Luca Blight again tomorrow.

This guy is just coasting, trying to make out he is doing something by leaving his vote on me, when really he is just sitting on the fence and doing nothing.

LOL. Also, shame on you for continuing to try and use the time I was V/LA against me. Seriously. Shame on you.

[Thesp]

You are an absolute lier. Never have I used the V/LA against you, I waited patiently for your V/LA to end, and you returned and still ignored it.

So basically, you voted with me because I agreed that Josh misrepped you, but you said I was voting you for the same reasons he misrepped you on, which was false as I explained. I thought your reason for wanting emo lynched purely because he claimed VT was weak as fuck and opportunistic. Never did I agree with Josh that you thought she was Town.

You clearly cited the 'third on the wagon' as a reason in #659.

You repeatedly cited my non-response to you over the past week as a point against me. I stated earlier yesterday I would try to get a heavy post in as soon as I could, and you kept saying I was ignoring you. You were using my absence (and shortened time) as a point against me repeatedly.

You are again misrepresenting why I am voting you. You are also deliberately leaving out my discomfort with your "case" on me, which also is Flubbernugget's strongest stated reason for voting you.

Again, I cited you as being third on the wagon as a refutation of your argument that I was an easy wagon. Again, that's not why I'm voting you.

If there's anyone who

doesn't

think I'm pushing a Luca Blight lynch, please speak up now. As a reminder to my post moments ago, "I hope it's abundantly clear that I'd be happy to move my vote back to Luca Blight if there's a chance of that lynch happening". If you too want a Luca Blight lynch right now, speak up and let's make it happen.

[Thesp]

And so what if that first paragraph was the main reasons for voting you, before your voting of me? I could have expanded that into five paragraphs, and later did expand, but chose to give the brief reasoning in that account.

No, you couldn't.

That's the point.

You basically said that your vote on me at the point you voted me was pretty much based on gut, and that's it. You came up with later reasons (which I disagree with) based on posts that came after your vote. I think you were called out on not having any real reason to vote me, and couldn't come up with anything. That's why I think you're just looking for someone to lynch rather than hunting scum.

[Thesp]

Let's take care of this "third on the wagon" nonsense. You keep bringing it up as if it's the only reason I'm voting you, which I hope has been demonstrated to be untrue:

Thesp - So you're super happy with your vote because I was the third one on your wagon? Is that really enough for you to be convinced I'm mafia?

I don't know if Thesp is genuinely angry at me voting him and allowing that to cloud his judgement, but his case is awful. I mean, being third on the wagon can be a scumtell in certain instances, but not considering I was already on a promising wagon when I voted him, and it's generally not something that is so blatantly obvscum that you can be as sure of his case as he is, where he claims he is super happy with his vote.

Based on Thesp's previous argument, his entire reason for voting me is purely OMGUS, and because I was third on his wagon. How anyone can be super happy with their vote based on such weak reasoning is beyond me.

Thesp's case on me is complete OMGUS wank, and that I'm the third on his wagon. Laughable.

You clearly cited the 'third on the wagon' as a reason in #659.

My response, in part:

Again, I cited you as being third on the wagon as a refutation of your argument that I was an easy wagon. Again, that's not why I'm voting you.

You again:

-You clearly use 'third on the wagon' as an excuse in ##659

Let's quote the portion in question and let everyone else decide on that one, shall we?

And if it's the case that I'm 'just trying to lynch someone', why wouldn't I have just kept my vote on emo (the easy option) or Josh (potential wagon forming). Why would I go for someone else, if that were the case?

As the third voter on my wagon when there's been a general murmur of suspicion against me, I'm curious why I wouldn't be the "easy option". As far as why you wouldn't go after someone else, I'm looking forward to find out why, after you flip!

[Thesp]

If I am misrepresenting your case, feel free to present it how you wish.

Please see 629, 642, 659, and 890.

Kisses,
Thesp

I gave about three reasons prior to your vote on me which you failed to deal with, instead discrediting it because I only made one paragraph concerning this.

Please re-quote them.

[Thesp]

How about you deal with my other points.

Please re-quote them.

[Thesp]

In the meantime, please give examples of where I used your V/LA against you.

Sure! Every post quoted below is from after I had already said I would be V/LA from Tuesday onward, and represents your repeated insistence that I'm ignoring you or not responding to you (and using it in an attempt to discredit me), despite clearly having stated I'd be out of town on vacation.

Why are you super happy with your Luca vote?

Surely if you're super happy with it, you should be trying to convince others onto the wagon, rather than merely saying you are happy about it with no explanation?

Thesp previously stated a terrible case against me. I pointed out why it was a terrible case, but he ignored my points. He then suddenly comes back and says he is super happy with his vote, but without any explanation of it, yet you think I'm scummy for questioning why exactly he is so happy with his vote?

It wasn't a misrep; I was asking him to clarify why he was so happy about his vote, and was wondering why he wasn't trying to push my wagon, particularly as he was pushing it hard before I exposed his case as bullshit, and now just says he's happy with his vote without further explanation.

He previously gave reasons for voting me, and I explained why his reasons were complete shit. He ignored my rebuttals, and suddenly pops back into the thread reiterating that he is super happy with his vote, without any reasoning. The post in which he said it was in response to suspicions against him, so it seems suspect to me, because it's like he's trying to put me in the spotlight as part of his defence, without explaining why he is scumreading me.

If you look back a bit, notice how he avoids all my arguments against his shit case?

You said this backhandedly...

You seem to conveniently avoid a lot of points against you, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt until you're back from V/LA.

...then continued in with this...

Thep's attack on me was scummy as fuck, he also avoided my subsequent rebuttals, and cannot coherently explain why he is super happy with his vote.
...
I had my reasons for initially voting Thesp as I have explained, and my reasons have only intensified and multiplied since his OMGUS vote, and ridiculous attack, and avoiding my arguments while slyly commenting he is super happy with his vote in a post irrelevant to this matter, while being unable to justify thy he is so happy with it.

Does no-one else think Thesp's reaction to my voting him was scummy? Perhaps I'm seeing things. Especially how he was so forceful for why I must be scum, and as soon as I countered his points he basically shut up about it and ignored my arguments completely, only to return later and say he is super happy with my vote, but seemingly unwilling to engage in debate with me over it. His sudden shift in approach is scummy to me.

What do you mean pursue 'again'? You haven't pursued or even explained it at all yet, despite my consistent prodding you to do so.

I'm just wondering what purpose Thesp's vote on me is serving, when he is clearly unwilling to push it, despite my repeated asking him to, and he now say he fully expects to vote Josh at the end of the day and leave me for tomorrow.

So why not vote Josh now, then? You're clearly unwilling/unable to engage in debate with me over why I must be scum, so what is your vote doing sat on me still?

So yes, I feel like you used my stated limited connectivity/access as a reason to discredit me on multiple occasions. Please forgive my mistake if it appears otherwise.

[Thesp]

Choo choo!

UNVOTE: Josh_B
VOTE: Luca Blight

I will be driving to Mississippi tonight. I expect I'll have Internet access tomorrow, but if I'm spotty please forgive me. I fully expect to move my vote as needed to secure a lynch, and I hope it's clear what my lynch preferences are. (If it's not clear, just ask.)

[Thesp]

Thesp how you feel about me? Welcome me to the game you jerk.

Welcome, pond scum!

I don't understand your D1 recap, but that's partly because I vainly skimmed it for me, saw you like some of my stands, then weirdly talk about how you didn't like me and wanted me dead. I'm already not keen on your player slot, as you may have noticed. I'm surprised you didn't respond to Lissa's question when you entered. That said, I really like your entrance within the past 24 hours. I'm hoping we lynch Luca Blight and he does indeed turn out to be scum, because you'd be practically cleared in my eyes. I don't have any interest in lynching you today.

[Thesp]

Quick post - family has taken up more time than expected. =P Sorry for the brevity here.

UNVOTE: Luca Blight
VOTE: Josh_B

A Lissa lynch wouldn't make me cry, but I think a Josh_B lynch is substantially better. I'll try to check in tomorrow to help make a lynch happen, but it is Thanksgiving, so I can't make any promises. I know there's at least one question directed at me - it will likely be D3 before I can answer. Sorry.

[Thesp]

Well, crap.

Out of town right now, will post substantively on Monday.

[Thesp]

Still trying to play catchup with lots of things after I'm back home from a long vacation. I promise I'll be more into the swing of things by the end of the week, but let me get this out now at least.

Thesp, could you bullet your case on Luca?

Sure!

- His initial vote on me Day 2 was incredibly skeezy. He agrees with Josh_B's suspicion of me on what appears to be a misread by Josh_B, agrees it's a misrepresentation, but stands by an incredibly weak reason reading anyway and never questioned Josh_B's misrepresentation of it.
- Claims in at least 4 posts that he has a significant case justifying his initial vote on me, but it all boils down to gut for him. It sounds more like he was puffing up his vote, then when called to account for it, looks for reasons for his vote after the fact.

I can cite other reasons I don't like his play or I'm otherwise uncomfortable with him, but these bits are by far the strongest reasons I think he's scum.

---

Thesp doing the compromise thing doesn't help my already sour opinion of his alignment.

What do you mean by this? My willingness to move my vote to secure a lynch? Or something else?

Something about JohnnyFarrar and Lissa each rub me the wrong way. Not necessarily together, but I do need to examine that at some point. I also need to spend some time looking over TheDudeAbides.

VOTE: Luca Blight
I'm most comfortable moving my vote back here.

[Thesp]

Thesp....do you think there is a chance I could be town or are you sure I am scum?

Like, you seem utterly convinced I am scum, which seems unreasonable given your case. As a man of great mafia experience, can you really not see my posting coming from Town? I feel like it's pointless even trying to engage with you as you are seemingly too stubborn to change your mind, am I correct in thinking this?

You seem unwilling to move on from one post, I don't see you commenting on anything else or doing anything helpful other than sitting on that reason. All you did yesterday was target me for that, and switch between me and Josh before settling for the latter...pretty weak if you are town, which I doubt. I have moved on from Luca vs Thesp and am exploring other avenues...but you continue to sit on that single post.

It's late and I'm tired so maybe I'm rambling a bit...but I just don't get why TownThesp would tunnel like this, and not consider or try to see what I have posted from a town perspective. I don't know, it just seems off.

Sure, I think there's a chance you're town. I'm rarely 100% on anything in Mafia. But I think you're most likely of anyone to be scum. It's more than one post - it's a series of posts (which all stem from the first post I cited) that bother me greatly. I like some of your posting yesterday, and my discomfort of JohnnyFarrar gives me some pause (as I don't think he'd be scum with you, but I'm not keen on him). I also strongly disagree that I've only been sitting on you and doing nothing else, though I agree that's where my voting power has been.

We disagree on the meaning and intent behind several of your posts. That's normal, even if you do turn up to be town (which I still doubt will happen). I do think you exploring avenues other than me is productive (though admittedly I'm biased in that perspective). There may be some way of convincing me you're town, though at this point I have no idea what that would look like, because I feel the points against you are so strong. (I know you disagree with this.)

Thesp happily jumped on as he does and disappeared again.

I hope I was clear on why I "disappeared" - I was away with family in Mississippi. I hope it was abundantly clear why I made the votes I did as well, and I can't imagine they came as a surprise to you or anyone. I try to communicate as clearly as possible about my voting approach as we near any deadline. I apologize for my two extended V/LAs in a row - November is the busy season for me. That said, I'm

really

resenting the idea that I'm unwilling to engage with you or the game. If you think my activity in the game is substandard, please just say so and we can consider whether that's accurate, and seek replacement if needed. (For the record, I don't think my activity has been substandard, and I don't expect any more V/LA until Christmas, so I hope this isn't necessary.)

---

There's also a lot of process of elimination going on considering I was scumreading phij and massive Day 1, Josh Day 2, and to an extent even Bookitty.

Egg

, I want to hear more about this process of elimination. Do you feel like you have so many town reads that there are only a select few scum reads left?

---

Beck

, who are your scum reads? Why? I'd really like to hear a lot more from you lately.

TheDudeAbides

, who did you think was scum at the end of yesterday, after Josh_B's claim? Why didn't you vote or push anyone until the hammer near deadline? Who are your best reads now?

Flubbernugget

, what are your reads right now?

[Thesp]

830: Thesp doesn't believe the claim. Wants Josh lynched. Thesp, why didn't you put Josh at L-1 in this post?

As stated in that very post, I wanted to give everyone a chance to weigh in before voting to lynch. I figured if I did put him at L-1 at that moment, it's entirely probable someone would have just ended it.

---

Beck, who are your scum reads? Why? I'd really like to hear a lot more from you lately.

now your turn please

Fair enough - thanks for your catchup post. I'm most uncomfortable with Luca Blight for reasons previously stated. Behind him is JohnnyFarrar (though not with Luca Blight), and while I haven't done a full re-read of TheDudeAbides like I want to (probably tomorrow?), today's skim through D2's end made me uncomfortable with his approach throughout it. Best guess right now is [Luca Blight XOR JohnnyFarrar, TheDudeAbides, off_my_radar_unknown], with varying degrees of probability. I really need a scum flip for some more clarity. (Actually, I wish I thought Luca Blight was town, because a JohnnyFarrar/TheDudeAbides/Flubbernugget trio makes a lot of sense to me, but I still strongly think Luca Blight is scum.)

[Thesp]

I'll have to look over your points on Luca later cause I'm not seeing scum from that slot.

Thoughts on Lissa?

There are a lot of posts of hers that make me uncomfortable, it feels like she's been lurking in plain sight the whole game, yet I'm not ready to vote for her. I am interested in her promised re-reading/catch-up post.

[Thesp]

Have you told me why I'm scum and I just forgot, Thesp? Or was it like gut or something that wouldn't stick in my head?

I've glossed over some of what made me uncomfortable about your predecessor emogirl123, but no, I haven't gone into what makes you special.

[Thesp]

You clearly care otherwise, you wouldn't have mentioned it.

Egg and Lissa are on this wagon, which probably means it will be another mislynch.

UNVOTE:

This makes me happier with a TheDudeAbides lynch, and I'll be glad to move my vote there after he chimes in.

---

mod has TheDude been prodded yet? if not can you prod him please.

Agreed.

---

I really like LlamaFluff's posting. The whole game it feels like he's been marching to the beat of a different drummer, but I think it's been useful.

[Thesp]

JohnnyFarrar

, you seem to have missed this. Can you please answer the question quoted below?

Thesp doing the compromise thing doesn't help my already sour opinion of his alignment.

What do you mean by this? My willingness to move my vote to secure a lynch? Or something else?

[Thesp]

I did, sorry.

Everything you're doing seems really convenient, and I'm getting that "maybe enough townies are just bad enough at the game that all the scum have to do is go through the motions to win" feeling currently.

Are you suggesting it would have been better to park my vote on someone who couldn't be lynched that day and been unwilling to compromise, potentially threatening a no-lynch?

[Thesp]

Not better for the game, but it would've made reading you a lot easier. Paranoia doesn't feel nice

Would it help you if I could point to a recent game where I was town, and was equally willing to compromise on a lynch? (I'm sure I could hunt down a few others as well, as this is my Standard Operating Procedure.)

[Thesp]

TheDudeAbides/TDA's replacement, please claim.

[Thesp]

TheDudeAbides/TDA's replacement, please claim.

He isn't at L-1 and you aren't even voting him...

You clearly care otherwise, you wouldn't have mentioned it.

Egg and Lissa are on this wagon, which probably means it will be another mislynch.

UNVOTE:

This makes me happier with a TheDudeAbides lynch, and I'll be glad to move my vote there after he chimes in.

[Thesp]

Basically Flubber and Thesp are freaking everyone out right now. You don't have to claim Dude slot and Flubber WHAT

How is Flubbernugget freaking everyone out right now?

[Thesp]

PoE townreads are a thing?

That's "freaking people out"?

---

TheDudeAbides/TDA's replacement, please claim.

He isn't at L-1 and you aren't even voting him...

You clearly care otherwise, you wouldn't have mentioned it.

Egg and Lissa are on this wagon, which probably means it will be another mislynch.

UNVOTE:

This makes me happier with a TheDudeAbides lynch, and I'll be glad to move my vote there after he chimes in.

That quote of yours sounds like you are implying that you are voting him after he posts either way. Seems pointless to wait if that's the case.

I largely agree with your first sentence. (There is likely a small subset of cases where I would not ultimately move my vote.) The waiting is designed to avoid lolhammers, while still clearly communicating my voting intent.

What do you think about that? (Same question for Luca Blight.) I'm curious as to the purpose of your posts there.

---

I think that we should strongly consider mass-claiming today.

I strongly disagree.

---

UNVOTE: Luca Blight
VOTE: TheDudAbides

[Thesp]

I won't be moving my vote.

I think this is a mistake.

[Thesp]

Busy day today but hope to check in further tomorrow (or maybe late tonight). I promise I haven't forgotten about you all.

[Thesp]

Why in God's name, would I as scum, have shot Bookitty?

I thought she was the most obviously town player out there.

I don't believe TheDudeAbides at all, and am quite happy with this lynch. I really don't buy the additional claim, and really don't believe the Bookitty kill as a vig kill (especially when we didn't have another death).

Everyone, we've got three days left from this post. If you want some other lynch to happen, you'd better make it happen now. I don't see me changing my vote at this point.

[Thesp]

Quick phone post here, but I'm thinking our best play is probably to no-lynch today.

[Thesp]

That depends. With the SK flip, are we thinking two scum or three? If three, no lynch is the right play. If two, I could go either way.

I'm thinking it was possibly a no kill last night. The number of scenarios where there was a prevented death last night are fairly small, and it's worth seeing if it will happen again.

[Thesp]

So you agree that scum can benefit from this no-lynch, through WIFOM tactics?

Do you think it is likelier that a scum kill was blocked last night, or that scum deliberately no-killed? If they no-killed, what do you think that says about what scum think is the best play for them? Is there any benefit to giving town power roles another shot to act, if we have any? (Doc + 2 Masons is pretty weak, and Neighbors aren't power roles that help town.) Do you think it's worthwhile to see who scum confirm innocent through their nightkill?

I'm having birthday celebrations today, but can go into no-lynch math on Sunday if need be. I'll vote no-lynch after everyone checks in.

[Thesp]

Luca Blight:

So you agree that scum can benefit from this no-lynch, through WIFOM tactics?

Do you think it is likelier that a scum kill was blocked last night, or that scum deliberately no-killed? If they no-killed, what do you think that says about what scum think is the best play for them? Is there any benefit to giving town power roles another shot to act, if we have any? (Doc + 2 Masons is pretty weak, and Neighbors aren't power roles that help town.) Do you think it's worthwhile to see who scum confirm innocent through their nightkill?

VOTE: No Lynch

[Thesp]

Egg.

You've made a number of comments through the game about things you would discuss later. (I can go back and sift through them, but two very strongly come to mind - one regarding Beck, and one regarding Josh_B.)

I want to talk about them now. What did you mean by them? Do you remember these points, and what you were thinking of?

I still think Luca Blight is scum, but there's no chance I'm laying down a vote in what is presumably LyLo until I'm comfortable with today's discussion.

[Thesp]

Thesp, the Beck one is still on hold. I don't remember the JoshB one.

Process of elimination is giving me Lissa as scum. I still think exactly one of Johnny/Luca is scum. That means there is a scum in Beck/Llama/Thesp too.

Thesp is gonna hate this, but I just thought of something else that has to wait too.

I am indeed gong to hate this. =P

I think we're now at a point where we need to discuss mass claiming. After that, I'm going to need a good reason for further withholding, Egg.

Traditionally, massclaiming is done "popcorn style", where one person claims, then picks the next person to claim. It's my preferred method (right behind "I pick the order and everyone does it like I say", though I imagine there would be objections to that method). We have a VT claim already from Luca Blight. I would suggest he begin nominating someone to claim, and we go from there.

That said, I would prefer agreement on this matter before Luca Blight picks someone, because I sure don't want to get midway through claiming before someone expresses why they think it's a bad idea. Can everyone weigh in on this so we can proceed on it fairly quickly? I don't want to spend the entire day discussing whether or not we should claim or how we should claim, and have to worry about a deadline lynch on LyLo.

[Thesp]

So I got 2 days and then I'm v/la for the holidays, assuming it doesn't get canceled since my wife is back in the hospital. Not trying to make excuses but my RL has been utter shit this past 5 weeks.

Be well. I'll keep you and your wife in our prayers.

[Thesp]

@Thesp - Why Luca and not JF?

I'd probably be happy with either, actually, but I need to take a closer look at it, and will after massclaim. Do you have any objections? Speak now and quickly, please. You're the only one who hasn't weighed in.

[Thesp]

I have never been a fan of massclaims, given the fact scum can fake claim you can never be sure who's legit and who's lying.

Yes, scum can fake a claim. That doesn't mean that forcing them to claim is meaningless or useless, or that they won't stumble. I don't understand a lot of how you play this game, apparently.

[Thesp]

@Thesp - Why Luca and not JF?

I'd probably be happy with either, actually, but I need to take a closer look at it, and will after massclaim. Do you have any objections? Speak now and quickly, please. You're the only one who hasn't weighed in.

We need to massclaim... but im not sure why VT claim start it off instead of most town person. Especially since you seem to have Luca as scum so wanting a scum read to choose where a massclaim starts is really odd to me.

Who would you have pick the first person?

I think you're going with someone who has already claimed anyway, and not beating around the bush trying to figure out who will claim next would be the best in terms of expediency.

Luca Blight, who do you want to claim first?

[Thesp]

Vanilla town. Egg, you're next.

[Thesp]

Even night cop

N2: llama not guilty
N4: no result so probably got RBd

And no I never actually crumbed my role, but I heavily inferred one day 1 and crumbed my llama result. Its also why I knew there could be no joat.

johnny boy, go next

Who did you investigate N4?

And be well, take care.

[Thesp]

I am very ready for the claiming to be done. Hurry up, people. Scum want to draw this out as long as possible.

(I'm also increasingly ready to vote for JohnnyFarrar, pending all the things.)

[Thesp]

So... my claim I guess if its actually needed here?

I'm comfortable with you withholding information at this point if you think that's useful. At this point, I believe Beck (and by extension believe you to be town), and if he's scum then I'm prepared to lose.

I find myself incredibly uncomfortable with JohnnyFarrar, which makes me incredibly uncomfortable with the entire game. I don't think he's scum with Luca Blight, who is my other strong pull. This kind of makes me want to compromise on Lissa (who I think goes with everyone). And I'm extraordinarily uncomfortable with Egg, because of all the "we'll talk about this later" stuff, when it appears there wasn't any special knowledge. I really, really want an answer to this:

Thesp, I think I know why you think you see a connection between Beck and myself. I'm sure it will become clear later. Now just isn't the time to discuss it (and no, I'm not softclaiming masons).

Why did you think I saw a connection between Beck and yourself?

And really, if Luca Blight and JohnnyFarrar are mutually exclusive alignments, it

has

to be Lissa and Egg (presuming Beck as town, and presuming 3 mafia, which isn't certain, but probably how we should be acting at this point anyway). I think I need to re-read to see if that's the case, but my strongest memory of them being dissociated was JohnnyFarrar opening against Luca Blight pretty hard.

I'm also really uncomfortable with the "no result" investigation on JohnnyFarrar, who could easily be a godfather. I'm also uncomfortable with the way Lissa claimed "Town Vanilla" rather than vanilla town. I'm skeptical that she went back and re-read her role PM to get the phrasing, rather than picking it up from the opening page and deliberately using that phrasing.

We've got 8 days until the deadline at this point, but I'd really not prefer us to be making a deadline lynch here. This is especially true if we do have 3 mafia, and none of them vote, as it will take all pro-town players voting in order to secure a lynch and prevent no-lynch (which loses today against 3 mafia).

I think I'm happy lynching Lissa at this point, as I just don't see a scenario where she's town. I really want to hear from Egg, who I want to be town, but am thinking probably isn't. And I want to hear what Luca Blight and JohnnyFarrar think of each other.

[Thesp]

Wouldn't the Godfather come back as Town to an investigation, rather than no result?

It depends on how the moderator is running it. I've seen both ways used.

[Thesp]

Lissa feels very inauthentic to me here.

I need to read more on Egg. I'm still a bit hung up on the "connection" language he used re: Beck, but I imagine he's not the lynch today anyway.

[Thesp]

My access will likely be a bit more spotty over Christmas and possibly through Sunday, but I'll have phone access and will be checking throughout.

I'm almost certainly happiest with a Lissa lynch, as Luca Blight/JohnnyFarrar/Egg is the least compelling trio to me. (Really, I'm trying to figure out whether Luca Blight and JohnnyFarrar are really mutually exclusive, because of the remaining four, Egg feels most pro-town to me, which doesn't fit if Luca Blight/JohnnyFarrar can't be scum together and if there are three scum.)

Actually, I don't realistically see my mistrust of Lissa being any different in the next week.

VOTE: Lissa

[Thesp]

And indeed, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and hopefully you get to enjoy spending some time with family and/or people you love, everyone!

[Thesp]

Thesp is going to be mad he had us pegged day 1.

Ha! I couldn't get anyone to go with me on it, though, so it didn't make much difference. Good job keeping your head down to all three of the scum team. I think reviewing responses to my opening questions in this game will definitely help on reading people in future games.

I do think the town was pretty underpowered. A doc and 2 masons doesn't feel like much of a fighting chance for the town. That said, I'm not sure more town power would have helped the town get this one. (And if I never, ever play in another game with a Neighbor role in it, it will still be too soon.)

Thanks for playing, everyone. Good game!