Mini 1620 — The Mod is Using Comic Sans — GG

[Lissa]

VOTE: emogirl
Why no vote?

[Lissa]

Hello, everybody! As you may know, I prefer to open the game up with questions for people rather than an arbitrary vote. So, if you would, can you answer these two questions for me?

1. Do you like being scum in games?
2. How good are you at lying?
(Additionally, if this is one of your first games here on the site, welcome, and I'd like to know that as well.)

If you think my questions are stupid or unhelpful, please just answer them and I can move on to other things. If you think the questions are actually harmful or you think I am using them in lieu of participating, please state so. Thanks!

1) Yes. Though I've only had one completed scumgame here (out of six completed games), I've had several more offsite; those are quick-ish (a couple of days long) games and not as serious, but from what I've seen so far my enjoyment of playing scum applies in both.
I'm fine with town too, though.
2) I'd like to think I'm at least decent. Especially on forums when I can really think things through if I need to.

Lissa, Thesp isn't voting either.
We should gang up on him.

Why?
Also, you are voting Beck. Not Thesp. Maybe you should put your vote where your mouth is, if you really want to go after Thesp.

He didn't even answer his own questions...

That said, this is a valid point.
Thesp, why didn't you answer your own questions? Please do so.

[Lissa]

Lissa, do you still think that emogirl is scummy?

No.
She was basically a RVS vote. I figured a tiny, weak gameplay reason to vote (i.e. her not placing a vote) was better than basing it on someone's username or something. I don't find her scummy at this point.
UNVOTE:

I'm causing a distraction, trying to get the first real wagon of the game. Its working I think

And it's on you.
That's certainly an interesting way to get things started.

And sense you are new, let me explain why.

The game usually starts with RVs cause nobody really has anything to go on, the goal is to get out of rvs quickly and start scum hunting. The act of rqs is another thing people to do, though less effective. Even TheS admits it's not really effective. The problem I have with his line of questioning is he wants everyone to answer, which means he's going to keep us in this stage much longer than it needs to be. It also doesn't really help the game progress. Now I know I'd probably get back flack for starting in with him, but I don't really mind the pressure, I love pressure.

I don't like this. It can't possibly be scummy if it's something Thesp does EVERY SINGLE GAME.

---

That said. As a whole I don't find Beck particularly scummy, or Thesp. I feel like this whole Beck/Thesp thing is more of a distraction than simply answering the questions would have been, but I don't find Beck particularly scummy for it right now. I don't find them particularly townish for it either, though I feel like the way Beck is sticking his neck out with this resistance is somewhat townish.

[Lissa]

I think Beck is actually at L-3.
I thought he was at L-2 at one point and was about to mention it - but checked and realized he wasn't. I'd counted Flubber's vote for him on page 3 when Flubber had already voted him.

[Lissa]

I can kind of see where Clusk is coming from on TDA - but it could just be newb awkwardness on TDA's part.

Massive, specifically what makes Beck's attitude unsafe for scum? I am certain that scum can be argumentative and opinionated.

What I find town about how Beck is acting is that he is sticking his neck out with this resistance to Thesp.

and this is my last post on the topic

My post is not wrong, deep down you know my post is actually the most truthful statement made this game.

What is the goal to this game? To find scum and lynch them. Do these questions help you find scum? no they don't.

I won't be getting lynched today

so if you are town, your vote is being wasted. If you are scum carry on.

I don't really like this (the bolded), though.

[Lissa]

Overall, I have a fairly null read on Beck.
I am trying to sort him. A lot of what he's doing strikes me as slightly townish, but there have been a few posts I haven't liked.

That's why those posts (83 and 121) are wishy-washy.

Gun to head I'd call him town.

[Lissa]

In each post she finds a reason to attack Beck and gives a reason to defend him,

and if she thinks that he's town, it doesn't make much sense for her to look for reasons to find him scummy

, like in the second post, where she attacks Beck over something that I don't understand at all.

Also, I disagree.

If I have a townread on someone, I'm not going to stop watching them and potentially noticing them doing scummy things, unless they're 100% confirmed town. I've tried to ignore evidence against an early strong townread before a few times and at least one of those times they flipped scum.
Like I said, Beck is a nullread... well, more along the lines of a weak townread, actually. But I'm not going to ignore it if he does things I find scummy.

[Lissa]

But I'm not going to ignore it if he does things I find scummy.

What do you find scummy about him saying that he won't be getting lynched today?

It's... how do I explain it?
It felt like a tactic to deflect people from voting him, like a less blatant form of "you don't want to lynch me", and that is... very easy to fake. I'm not certain it's fake, though, or even really means much. I think it could also be a "we're not lynching me, we're done here, conversation over" kind of thing, which could come from scum or frustrated/fed up town, and the rest of that paragraph implied that. It just pinged my gut a little.

[Lissa]

That directed at me?

The tone of some of them, mostly earlier ones, just feels a bit awkward on gut. It doesn't really feel like scum awkwardness though.

[Lissa]

It was.

I'm satisfied.

Unvote

Lissa, if you had to pick someone to vote, who would it be?

VOTE: thesp

See Beck's 149 + his hop on Luca.
And Beck - link the Thesp scumgame please?

Phijkchu is also kinda scummy.
Luca is due for a prod I think. I want to see if he actually posts content when prodded this time. If not, perhaps pressuring him might be a decent idea - or he'll be replaced. I don't think wahonibg him for pressure is the answer, at least not yet. I feel like he could be avoiding the game, but he could've just forgotten.

[Lissa]

See Beck's 149 + his hop on Luca.
And Beck - link the Thesp scumgame please?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=58255

Thank you.

Yeah, I read that and I agree with your assessment of it as very similar.

[Lissa]

Egg and Luca, I really like your points on Emo.

Egg, you make a good case on Phij also.
Phij seems like somewhat of an easy target/lynchbait - but the last time I called someone that, they flipped scum. I'm not sure him being perhaps an easy target should be giving me pause.
Also, note- I did a quick skim of Flubber's isos in a few of his finished games and saw some Towngames where he mostly posted like in this one and some where he posted more substantial posts.

I'm kinda torn though cause meta suggests that thesp is probably scum here but PMs defense and attack of me suggests that thesp is town. Pm saying she/he doesn't understand them and 1. Doeantnevwn bother to ask me to explain them and 2. Commiting one of the exact arguments I made as a reason to defend thesp, heavily implies a non town mindset

P.edit -this post better explains why he/she is scum

I like this case on PM.
However, how does it make thesp town?

[Lissa]

TDA - In both of the two finished scumgames I found, Flubber had posts of varying lengths. I saw a fair bit of that in his towngames as well.

I don't think scum would defend a buddy. They get more from defending a townie. Though I'm not completely ruling it out, just less likely

Meh.
I thought at first I could see him doing it.
However, I just checked his two finished scumgames. In the first, he literally never mentioned his buddy once. In the second, he interacted with his buddy once in a very non-alignment-indicative way, mentioned him perhaps once more I think, and never stated a read on him.
This makes me doubt he would be scum with Thesp.

VOTE: Emogirl

[Lissa]

(also note: I went to check if PM normally defended his buddies and found what I found.)

Why is it Emo a bad lynch?

I find both of the two scummy.

[Lissa]

I'm actually thinking Emo's okay for now. Not too sure about her - but I'm increasingly thinking Phij is far scummier.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Phij
That is L-1 I believe.

[Lissa]

Lissa/ the dude
Who are your top town reads right now?

Beck, Egg, you, TDA.

@Lissa - You say emo is "okay for now" when you vote PM. Elaborate on what "okay for now" means and how PM has become scummier. Your wording heavily implies that PM got scummy instead of Emo got town.

I liked/agreed with the further cases made on PM after my Emo vote. I found Emo's new posts after my vote somewhat townish, and felt she'd responded well to the pressure of the small wagon on her. Thus, I decided PM was a better place to put my vote. Because Emo got more townish, and PM got more scummy. A little of both.
I'm currently reading Emo as null/slightly leaning town. (I also found her stubbornness about the policy lynch/great lynch thing townish.)

Also,

V/LA until Tuesday, November 11

That's LA not V. I just have some school things I really need to focus on catching up on, so I won't have as much time for mafia in the next few days.

[Lissa]

I agree.

[Lissa]

TDA - In both of the two finished scumgames I found, Flubber had posts of varying lengths. I saw a fair bit of that in his towngames as well.

My guess is that post length is not indicative of alignment in most cases.

Do you think that post-length is a good indicator of alignment? I'm not sure whether it is, but I am sure that you'll catch each player at most once with that tell.

No, I don't think it typically is. That was in response to

Also, note- I did a quick skim of Flubber's isos in a few of his finished games and saw some Towngames where he mostly posted like in this one and some where he posted more substantial posts.

What does he do in his scum games?

this, and that part of my 256 there was originally a response to

Flubber is kind of floating through, not proactively scumhunting as such. Post a lot of one-liners, usually questioning points here and there. I don't know what to make of him, could be a good idea to check his meta to see if this is just his style or what.

this.

[Lissa]

Welcome, Bookitty, and thanks for replacing in!

[Lissa]

Sorry about that.

Let's see

VOTE: Thes

Also wondering about TDA.

Emo actually feels town.

[Lissa]

emogirl feels town right now, but needs to post content. I'd like to see some reads/something from her.
Her stubbornness about the whole "great lynch/policy lynch" debacle and standing by it as a "great lynch" even after his townflip feels town. Scum could easily have backed down there to avoid getting heat/attention for it. And what she is saying feels genuine. And her reasoning for voting PM was perfectly valid.

Beck is still town.
I'm going to take a closer look at the Josh and Luca cases and some other things.

[Lissa]

The thing that gives me the most pause about Josh_B today is that his opening post feels very genuine to me.

I actually agree with this, which is a bit odd because I am scumreading Thesp and am not unhappy with Josh votes either. This doesn't change that though.

Luca wagon was/is bad, glad to see it dissolving somewhat.

Want to look closer at bookitty.

[Lissa]

I'mve been trying to see if this develops any further, and it's taken long enough for it to get to this point but

Lissa is definitely scum so we should lynch her.

VOTE: Lissa

I thought she was scum with Thesp which is why I didn't move, but her recent post makes me less sure.

You haven't mentioned me at all today until now, or mentioned any sort of read on me all game. Where the hell did this come from?

It looks incredibly out of the blue and feels OMGUSy. Explain?

[Lissa]

My post 559 was SK hunting due to the odd Massive kill and speculation that the scum kill was blocked.
Thesp saying that the post was genuine seems like something scum would say.
Lissa's follow-up agreeing with the same but saying that she didn't mind the votes on me, even though she has,or at least previously had me as one of her town reads is a scum claim to me.

How the fudge is that a scumclaim?

I thought it sounded genuine, but it wasn't enough to make me sure you were town. I no longer have you as a townread. I don't think what Thesp said about what you said was especially a scummy thing to say in itself, but I think it's something that could well have come from scum. I also think it could easily be something scum would say about a scumbuddy.

And what post are you referring to? I think you've got the wrong number down, 559 isn't a post of yours.

[Lissa]

"Infatuation"?

I found Emo scummy at one point. She made some posts that made me hesitant about that, so I was like "alright, I think she's okay for now." Since then I have found her actions townish. I do not think her stance on the whole policy lynch/great lynch debacle is scummy, and I find her stubbornness about said stance townish.

[Lissa]

Egg - congrats!

TDA, Beck - I'll find and quote those Emo posts tomorrow (real time tomorrow, not Day 3 tomorrow, of course), don't really have time to do this today, sorry, this is a glorified prod dodge

[Lissa]

Who did you track last night?

[Lissa]

(anyways - catching up, sorry about that)

[Lissa]

On Emo - posts 268 and 286, looking back at her iso now.

Josh - intent to hammer, please claim

I can give Thesp another look tomorrow

[Lissa]

I'm not too believing of the claim either

Also want to see answers to 828
And have another question - Josh, why Llama?

Agree that that Josh quote was likely a slip, if that wasn't clear by my stating intent to hammer last night

[Lissa]

When I said I agreed about that SK hunting thing you said being "genuine" I meant the tone and feel of it, and the way you just came out and said it. I feel like "genuine" has been misinterpreted here.

[Lissa]

Are you saying you are not doc? You are confusing me.

And I do not think you are getting how I meant and interpreted the word "genuine." I meant as in the tone and feel of it. I did not mean I necessarily thought he or you "knew" it was true or merited.

[Lissa]

Okay, let's see.

OK.
So real story. Either I'm town, which is why my SK hunting was recognized and called genuine(it was actually called scum posting by thedude), or I'm scum and I'm bussing, because my partners are just as interested in finding an SK as I am.

Either I know that there is for sure an SK, or I WIFOM'd it based on likely targets of both NK's and lynches.
SO.. you either have to lynch me or we have to lynch Lissa or thedude.
And then if I'm right we can move the game on from there.

pedit: book, Massive kill was awkward. I threw out some bait. I think it worked.

(Or 3. he is scum SK hunting and faked the genuine tone...)
Anyway
It reads to me like he is saying he, or Thesp, or me, or whoever would have to know it was true for us to find it genuine. His whole "lynch me, or lynch Lissa/TDA" thing, too. i.e. the main reason I can see for him calling it scum is that apparently my calling it genuine implies I know it's true? He's presented no further case on me beyond this. And - tangent - but I don't get why he's lumped TDA in there, either. I don't see a case on TDA from him, either.

He seems to assume that my calling it genuine means I thought it was definitely genuine town SK hunting. It doesn't really make a lot of sense for town to be SK hunting under the circumstances, and I was not saying the SK hunting or motivation was necessarily genuine, I was saying the tone/feel of the post was. I feel like he is interpreting "genuine" as meaning the former, when I meant the latter.

When I said I agreed about that SK hunting thing you said being "genuine" I meant the tone and feel of it, and the way you just came out and said it. I feel like "genuine" has been misinterpreted here.

yea.. only scum would

know

that. Which is also part of my original Thesp scum read.

A blocked NK would indicate there are PR's out there to be hidden. Claiming to not want to out the PR's gives town cred.
I could still lynch Thesp.

And there's his use of the word "know" here. You do not have to know something is true to find it genuine, at least the way I am interpreting genuine.

There is also his calling my agreeing with it being "genuine" as a scumclaim earlier.

[Lissa]

It reads to me like he is saying he, or Thesp, or me, or whoever would have to know it was true for us to find it genuine. His whole "lynch me, or lynch Lissa/TDA" thing, too. i.e. the main reason I can see for him calling

me

scum is that apparently my calling it genuine implies I know it's true? He's presented no further case on me beyond this. And - tangent - but I don't get why he's lumped TDA in there, either. I don't see a case on TDA from him, either.

EBWOP - not sure how that one happened, lol

[Lissa]

There could be scum roleblocker or even strongman. Which would make a real doc nonthreatening and thus not a priority kill, especially if they thought said doc would be lynched if left alive.

[Lissa]

Josh, I believe Thesp meant that there was no claimed cop.

Though if you are really town doc (doubtful), I doubt there is a cop, period.

[Lissa]

Oh this is fun. now we can argue about whether or not there's a cop. Let's fish that role out too.

You are utterly missing the point.

[Lissa]

Though if you are really town doc (doubtful), I doubt there is a cop, period.

Why do you think he is fakeclaiming?

Not interested in a lynch of doc claim. If he is scum it should be obvious shortly. His reaction is one of someone who thinks a kill is missing and he immediately was calling me town. If he was planning on fake claiming doctor with having protected me he lines up for that way earlier than I would think scum tries to line up a fakeclaim.

unvote
Vote Lissa

She actually was avoiding the wagon on Josh until AFTER he claimed doc and never really expanded on why she thinks he is scum that didn't apply before. Just seems like a vote because she doesn't think there is a doc "because" and then throws out "well he might not get killed due to scum PRs". The timing of the sudden swing in wanting him lynched feels like scum trying to get rid of a PR

Uh... no.
He claimed after I declared intent to hammer - I wanted him lynched before the claim. I didn't vote him before mostly because I was busy with RL stuff for a few days and didn't have much time to post (perhaps should have V/LA'd... oh well) and pretty much came back to him at L-1. He had a few votes before that and I said I didn't disagree with the wagon, but I didn't vote him because I liked my vote better on Thesp at the time. When I came on yesterday, I decided a vote on him was merited, so I stated intent to hammer.

@Lissa what happened between voting Emo and voting here? Because you say Karp is looking increasingly bad but he didn't post between 261 and 291.

That shift in thought was triggered partly by Emo's posting, partly by a few things others pointed out about Karp in that time period (for example, in Egg's 280.)

[Lissa]

The thing that gives me the most pause about Josh_B today is that his opening post feels very genuine to me.

I actually agree with this, which is a bit odd because I am scumreading Thesp and am

not unhappy with Josh votes

either.

I was previously one of Lissa's strong town reads, and was at that time a strong advocate for a thesp lynch. Looks like she's opening the door to reverse stance on a Josh lynch, plus the confirmation of thesp calling my post genuine.

For the tenth time. "Genuine" in the way I used it did not mean "accurate" or "true" or whatever. It meant it felt genuine in tone. Are you getting this? The way you are interpreting it does not seem to be that way.

[Lissa]

Bookitty's post above just about nails why I still want a Josh lynch.

I would vote Luca if that was necessary to reach a lynch by deadline, but that's about it.
I still think there's a fair chance Thesp is scum, and would vote him as well if needed due to deadline (and would prefer a lynch of him to Luca) but would prefer Josh today.

For now~
VOTE: Josh

[Lissa]

On 83 - I didn't unvote purely because of him questioning it, his question simply reminded me it was there.
And I was uncertain about Beck/Thesp at the time. I wasn't going to force myself to take a side at the moment.
On 129 - I was still somewhat uncertain at the time.
On 140 - I explained myself. How is that OVER-explaining?
On 197 - I am aware that Beck did not vote Thesp himself in the post I referenced, but I found what he'd mentioned sufficient to merit a Thesp vote.
And I took TDA's post as him asking me to vote. But I would have voted Thesp at that point regardless of TDA's question.

On 256 - I do in fact have concrete evidence of this, thank you.

Oka is actually kinda townish leaning. Partly for setup ignorance. Partly because he kinda just seems like scummy loltown. Though he could be scum,

he kind of just looks like an easy target here

.

You clearly have a different experience, but I got somewhat of a loltown/

town easy target

vibe from Oka. That was my gut reaction on him.

It might be different here, but my inclination is to think easy target = likely town.

OkaPoka,

Mafia 1-shot Self Day Vigilante

, was shot.

The votecount resets.

Grace period: (expired on 2014-09-28 23:05:00)

On 259 - I found both PM and Thesp scummy, but they didn't seem plausible partners for each other. I wasn't sure which one was more likely scum at the time, so I turned to Emo instead.
On 291 - I found a few of Emo's posts townish. As stated earlier, 268 and 286. And there were further cases presented on PM, such as Egg's in 280, that highlighted some points I'd missed.
On 355 - Along with what I mentioned above, I found part of PM's 294 scummy.

Let's start it off with this post where beck is still attacking me. With beck defending emo and vise versa on why I'm a good lynch they could easily be scum together idk about third scum maybe Luca but all she did was get me to l-1. Beck at this point is pushing for my lynch trying get people off other trains. Thesp seems to be the only one who actually understands my view on the current situation. And also why is everyone going after me for my view point on rqs? I feel like scum are just taking advantage of lynchbait right now and people are just joining along.

This was his reasoning for Emo and Beck being his top scumspects.

In case someone hammers me before I can make my defense beck and emo are most scum most scummiest for me... Obviously I'll explain why in my last defense for now goodnight for now also we have 7 days left so give me a chance

It was not reasoning I found very good. And while considering his flip, it may have been more of a newb-tell than a scum-tell, at the time I found it scummy and thought it could very plausibly be newbscum reasoning.

[Lissa]

83 - Why did you feel the need to unvote while not voting anyone else? Did you not want to pressure anyone else at that point? You seem to be reacting, not being pro-active with your play.

129 - Your comment added nothing - it felt as if you were trying to comment on a relevant topic, but without actually saying anything useful.

140 - The manner in which you explained it seemed awkward. Perhaps that's just the manner in which you naturally come across, though.

197 - So why didn't you question why Beck wasn't voting Thesp, as you thought he had sufficient reason to do so? It seems a coincidence that both times TheDude has questioned your voting, you have unvoted/voted in a way which comes across as if you are trying to appease him. Also, you never question anyone or anything. As I said earlier, you react, rather than pro-actively scumhunting,

256 - fair enough. It still feels like you were being on the fence with Magikarp, though. Again, all your posts are just safe commentary for the most part.

259 - If you weren't sure, why not question them rather than just placing a naked vote on an easy target?

291 - I would disagree that those posts are townish. What is your current read on that slot?

355 - Err, hold on. You're vote for Magikarp came at 291, but you scumread him because of something that happened after your vote? Explain, please.

On 83 - I guess it just made sense to me to unvote at that time? And there wasn't really anyone in particular I wanted to pressure yet.

On 197 - It didn't quite cross my mind at first. Then it did - but he explained it before I needed to ask, in his 245. I then did question him about why PM-scum meant Thesp-town, and his response along with a little meta check convinced me that PM and Thesp were unlikely scumbuddies.

On 291 - null/weak town lean

On 355 - I quoted a post after my switch that made me happier with it. I ALSO mentioned some reasons that occurred before said switch. My "main reasons" did not come after the vote.

On 291 - I found a few of Emo's posts townish. As stated earlier, 268 and 286. And there were further cases presented on PM, such as Egg's in 280, that highlighted some points I'd missed.

[Lissa]

The fact remains, the main reasons for putting Magikarp at L-1 came after her vote.

No. They did not.

[Lissa]

Luca -
Let's see.
The thing about PM not entertaining the idea that he could possibly be wrong.
The opportunistic timing of his Beck vote.
It wasn't JUST Egg's case making me decide to switch, it was also Emo seeming less scummy. But those are the bits of Egg's case that stand out now to me.

Sometimes things set off my gut and I'm not really sure why and then someone else comments on them/explains it and I'm like "Oh! That's it!" but I am trying to avoid "me too-ing" too much so I don't always comment on it. When I'm asked to explain reasoning for stuff and I haven't already I go back and find it. Sometimes I don't have something concrete already and I'll look again and go "ooh, that's why." Because usually when my gut pings it's for a reason I just can't place yet.
But like, what bookitty said about josh a couple pages ago
She said what I was on some level thinking and couldn't quite place/put into words
Gut might not be quite the right word because usually something concrete sets it off that I just can't quite place, but this is kinda how I roll.
This is some sort of self-meta I guess, but this is why I don't always explain things right away.

Anyway.
Johnny, I did take a stance on Beck/Thesp a bit later. I just took a bit longer to sort them.

[Lissa]

... One day and counting until deadline. Shiz.

As stated, I would much prefer a Josh lynch to a Luca lynch, but will vote Luca if it is necessary to reach a lynch by deadline.

[Lissa]

Town: Beck, Bookitty, Egg
Weak town lean: Johnny, Luca, TDA
Unsure: Flubber
Scum: Thesp, Josh, Llama

I ISO'd Flubber and my internal dialogue was something (a bit more detailed) along the lines of "town lean... wait? scum lean... no? town lean... wait, no, that's kinda scummy". Really not sure there.

The Llama interactions with the Josh claim/situation are too odd to ignore.
Llama's logic in 983 is missing something - if there is in fact a SK, someone with a blocked kill on them is NOT confirmed town. Crosskills are a thing.
I don't like this in Josh's logic either - his calling Llama unquestionably town.
I find Llama and Josh very plausibly scumbuddies. There's their weirdly defending each other today after Josh's claim, for one, and the fact that Llama is a strange doc protect choice IMO. Well, Josh's defending Llama in itself isn't that weird, I suppose, though it is missing something, but Llama defending Josh like he is, is.
Llama was actually going after Josh earlier toDay, also. He did this early toDay, then goes after me in following Josh's vote in 874, but in that post, he doesn't actually call Josh town (he doesn't do that until his next post, 973, in which he develops a strong townread on Josh), and his comment about me only wanting Josh lynched AFTER the claim kind of feels like a misrep. Even if not blatantly that, I dislike the way he continued to insist that I want Josh lynched because of the claim.
And I did a quick command-F check of Josh's ISO and not ONE mention of Llama D1. No interaction with him or anything. Especially considering Josh supposedly chose to protect Llama, I find this odd.

By the way~

So yes or no, if he did not claim doctor you would have preferred a lynch of Thesp. As far as I can tell you think he is scum BECAUSE of that claim.

I thought I answered this earlier, but I guess not.
No, if he had not claimed doctor I would STILL have wanted him lynched over Thesp at that point. My reason for thinking him scum is NOT because of the claim. The claim simply does nothing to alleviate that thinking.

[Lissa]

Bookitty. That is... kind of weird considering how yesterday ended.

I think Josh just made a really off assumption. Especially given only one kill again last night, I don't think this is multiball at this point. I'm not sure what to think of Llama now.

One thing I find... interesting is that Bookitty thought Llama was likely scum regardless of Josh's flip. That is a pretty WIFOM-y thing to draw info from, though.

Town: Beck,

Bookitty

, Egg
Weak town lean: Johnny, Luca, TDA
Unsure: Flubber
Scum: Thesp,

Josh

, Llama

I still strongly believe that Beck and Egg are town.
I need to reread and reevaluate things.

[Lissa]

CRAP I'M SORRY I'M HERE DON'T REPLACE ME

[Lissa]

I forgot this was my third prod I was due

I'm in the middle of catching up

SORRY

I'll post something more substantial in a bit

[Lissa]

Not catching up really - rereading

Haven't had too much of a chance, trying to work on it, sorry about that, should be done soon

[Lissa]

@Egg - I didn't put Josh at L-1 then because I hadn't yet really considered that he wasn't aalready at L-1 anymore.

Not catching up really - rereading

Haven't had too much of a chance, trying to work on it, sorry about that, should be done soon

when you do catchup i'd like your top 2 scum reads and why.

I'd also like to see you explain your actions about lying day 2 about catching up and instead just declare intent to hammer on the largest wagon at the time.

I did catch up then, I just didn't have a whole lot else I felt the need to say to what had recently transpired at the time.

Oftentimes I sheep because I have trouble finding why something pings, and the case someone else makes just nails what I couldn't quite find. I need to get better at finding things myself, but whatever.

Anyway~
I have a Flub townread I am not going to explain right now. My stance on Egg and Beck is not changed.
That leaves: Johnny, Luca, TDA, Thesp, Llama for me to look at.
The last two were my scumreads yesterday. But: my Llama scumread had some to do with his interactions with Josh and some of the backing crumbles with Josh's townflip. Though llamascum could also make just as much sense with joshtown, maybe I'm just paranoid after the josh townflip. I also feel like it may have been a bit OMGUS-biased. And my Thesp scumread has lasted all game and I'm not sure whether it still makes sense or I'm unintentionally just clinging onto it.

VOTECOUNT 1.15

(1)

Beck

—

Phijkchu_Magikarp

(L-6)
(0)

Bookitty

—
(0)

Egg

—
(4) emogirl123

(JohnnyFarrar)

—

Flubbernugget

, Luca Blight,

massive

, Thesp (L-3)
(1)

Flubbernugget

— LlamaFluff (L-6)
(0)

Josh_B

—
(0)

Lissa

—
(0) LlamaFluff —
(0) Luca Blight —
(0)

massive

—
(7)

Phijkchu_Magikarp

—

Beck,

emogirl123

(JohnnyFarrar)

,

Josh_B

,

Egg, Lissa,

Bookitty

, TheDudeAbides (L-0)
(0) TheDudeAbides —
(0) Thesp —

(0) Not Voting —

VOTECOUNT 2.12

(0)

Beck

—
(0)

Bookitty

—
(0)

Egg

—
(0)

Flubbernugget

—
(0) JohnnyFarrar

(emogirl)

—
(6)

Josh_B

—

Egg

,

Lissa,

Bookitty

, Thesp, TheDudeAbides, Luca Blight (L-0)
(2)

Lissa

—

Josh_B

, LlamaFluff (L-4)
(0) LlamaFluff —
(2) Luca Blight —

Flubbernugget,

JohnnyFarrar

(emogirl)

(L-4)
(0) TheDudeAbides —
(0) Thesp —

(1) Not Voting —

Beck

Egg, me and Bookitty are in the same order on both. Cute.

So removing the people I think or know to be town, who does that leave.
PM wagon: emo/Johnny, TDA
Josh wagon: Thesp, TDA, Luca
Who is on both? TDA.
Also, I don't like his entry to either.
He scumread PM for what looks to me like a large portion of D1 but only voted him as the hammer. I am a total hypocrite for finding this a little scummy, and considering that I probably shouldn't read too much into it, but whatever. Also, he didn't have a vote down at all for a while there. Why, TDA, did you leave your vote unplaced when you unvoted Luca, instead of putting it back on PM or, say, Massive?
And he comments on lynching a claimed doc being the wrong move then helps it happen anyway
Who is on neither? Llama. Interesting. It seems like a scum off both wagons makes a lot of sense. Based on my townreads on said wagons and some stuff.
And I don't think all three of thesp/tda/luca are scum, and I don't think Emo is scum, and if I am right on that, he is scum. Hmm. And I only have two non townflips/townreads on one of the wagons so if my townreads are right theres scum off that one
If TDA is scum, likely only one of Thesp/Luca is. All three scum in a row like that on a wagon would be bizarre.
Emo's approach to the PM wagon/vote still feels town to me.
Luca and Johnny as scum together makes no sense.
If Thesp is scum, there's probably at least one scum on the PM wagon, too.
I think scum is likely thesp/tda/llama.
Looking at llama's behavior close to pm getting lynched. It seems like llama hopped off pm close to a lynch and pushed a totally different wagon with little/no support. I mean I guess his unvote when he did makes sense kind of but not the flubber vote really. It was at a point when everyone wanted to lynch pm and a pm lynch was probable which is interesting. Could be distancing from a wagon he knew'd flip town
Llama's tda vote today is interesting. Hmm. I dont' know if a bus makes sense right now. I feel like it does.

VOTE: TDA

I think that's l-1
gawd I've done that a lot this game, I don't care
goodnight

[Lissa]

I dont' know if a bus makes sense right now. I feel like it does.

why do you think a bus makes sense right now?

Llama could have realized TDA looked scummy (while he was the first one to vote him, he wasn't the first one to think so, and Egg commented on looking at him), felt others would vote him, and decided to vote him first.

[Lissa]

Wouldn't you almost call it a good thing Lissa is on it? She is already trying to call people scum for bussing TDA without the flip actually confirming him as scum. That feels more like scum knowing their partner is about to be lynched and being a bit too quick to start building on it.

I don't think he is scum with you BECAUSE you voted him. I just think your vote on him doesn't change that.

It would really be nice if TDA would talk.

I think Farrar is probably scum with Lissa, it's something I've thought for a while.

Farrar/Lissa, and the third is probably someone out of Egg/Thesp/Flubs.

If I had to guess at a third I'd probably say Egg.

See I think you are town but your reads are so out of sync with mine and I don't know what to think. It makes me paranoid how one of my townreads has reads that are literally almost completely opposite to mine.

[Lissa]

PoE townreads are a thing?

Usually not when you only have two scumreads...

Really? How I see that post of his, he has three. How are you seeing it?

I'd like to see what TDA's replacement says.

[Lissa]

prodge - sorry

[Lissa]

Okay so thinking llama is pretty town now. Is a scum/scum neighborhood even a thing in normals? Seems super unlikely even if so. That'll mean some reevaluating tomorrow I guess.

I don't believe the JOAT claim. Doesn't make sense. Seems like a last ditch scum attempt to save himself. Along with that the amount of town power that'd mean doesn't make sense.

Note to self: Luca's 1203 is... interesting.

Do not want massclaim today.

1253 is freaking wifom stew. I don't like it.

1309 feels like a subtle attempt at discrediting.

Still agree with TDA lynch. Good with hammer on him after he returns once more.

[Lissa]

So it was multiball after all. Oh.

I don't think having any more protective/blocking roles makes sense with what we've already seen Town has. So it could have been a no kill, I just don't get why one would be done, it doesn't make sense to me strategically, but another role that can prevent a kill makes little sense either. I don't know.

And only two scum doesn't seem likely given the Town power we know exists (a doc, masons, and neighbors to boot.) I think we have three.

I agree that no-lynch makes sense, yeah.

[Lissa]

Scum have actually no-killed the last two nights, assuming TheDude killed Bookitty.

Yeah, no.

It is far more logical that mafia-scum also killed Bookitty, or they shot TDA, who was 1-shot bulletproof. Or that there is some other mystery kill preventing role that got them last night too, but that doesn't strike me as likely.
Why the hell would they no kill like that two nights in a row? Why would they even do it once, for that matter? It makes NO sense to me.

[Lissa]

@Lissa - I meant no-kill as in they didn't kill.

Obviously I, as Town, don't know the circumstances behind it...I suspect you do.

I know perfectly well what you meant by no-kill. I just think it's implausible.

[Lissa]

I feel like I need to reevaluate my reads at this point.

I agree with massclaim, popcorn is fine with me.

[Lissa]

There is still info that can be drawn from claims and how they happen, even if they aren't confirmed to be legitimate

[Lissa]

town vanilla, popcorn to thesp

[Lissa]

I don't recall me holding something back about beck?

Anyway I believe his claim.

Will put more time into sorting things further after Christmas.

[Lissa]

I've never heard of a godfather that gives "no result", that'd be an ascetic? I don't think a no-result godfather would be "normal" by that name, how recently have you seen that, Thesp?

and I guess it's coming down to me or luca. I'll work on making a case for luca scum when I can, and try to figure out his partners out of thesp/egg/johnny. probably thesp/egg, off the top of my head, since I seem to recall thinking johnny/luca partners was pretty implausible, but I want to take another look. And I guess we're kind of doomed already if luca's the townie in him/thesp/egg/johnny, so I'll work under the assumption that he's scum.

VOTE: luca blight

and I think the town vanilla thing is silly and nitpicky.

egg - I gather you mean me or luca by "lose a"? I'm guessing me. either way, you forgot the other one of us two as a possibility

[Lissa]

Luca - You voted me in Lylo. You've been scum reading me long and hard enough that I didn't think I was getting you to unvote. I don't have a whole lot of experience in 7p Lylo but from what I know this kind of makes it me or you for today and I know I'm not scum.

And yeah I guess it's a little survivalistic. Purely survivalistic no, a little bit yeah. I don't really want to be the game ending mislynch, thanks. Sue me.

And I do need to get myself back into this game, I've been kind of distant from it recently. That's why I said i needed to take a closer look. But if we're both town and the scumteam is Johnny/Thesp/Egg we are essentially screwed anyway.

As for 1203, one moment, I'll go look at it. Phoneposting.

[Lissa]

On 1203 - You said you were prepared to compromise on tda but he wasn't your first choice. I thought it looked like plausibly a scumbuddy read. I didn't have time to elaborate and just wanted to make sure I got some thoughts out before tda was hammered. It would only have been valid if tad flipped groupscum.

[Lissa]

Maybe you would have been willing to unvote, I don't know. I didn't think so. I guess I panicked. That doesn't make me scum.

[Lissa]

I thought you were more set on me than I guess you were. I did panic. I was going to look at things more before I voted, but when you voted me I panicked. I guess that was dumb.

I want to find scum AND save myself. Considering this is Lylo. A few people have said they were scumreading me so when I got a vote before I had a chance to really look over things I panicked.

Now I'm going to stop rambling about it and unvote until I have time at my computer and can do that. UNVOTE: Maybe this is even more dumb than voting you in the first place. I don't think so. I hope not.

[Lissa]

Oh my. Well played, really well played, scum. Good game, everyone.

I didn't in a million years see that coming. Even after the quickhammer I was a bit hesitant to assume that, but the post times... too close.

I wondered a little on occasion about beck never dying despite being really town all game but there's so much potential wifom there I never looked into it.

sorry for being super scummy I guess.
& I have more experience with smaller (mostly 3person) lylos, not much with bigger lylos, and I hadn't realized crossvoting someone who votes you wasn't really universal protocol in one like this.

I was just about to ask if that was why there was the no kill that night.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

[Lissa]

Out of curiosity, why was Boon replaced pregame?

Yeah, I figured shooting the bp was what happened N2.

Beck claimed to have been roleblocked and I figured that along with it being an even night cop at least balanced it well enough. though I'm not really a fan of doc/cop setups, balanced or not. I was surprised to see that this seemed to be one. But his claim all seemed to line up. xD

[Lissa]

And I think the traitor + mafia cop is a pretty neat idea.

[Lissa]

Have read the pts. I found it interesting how the scumteam seemed to think Flubber was really unlikely to be the other mason. I thought he was, that was why I had an unexplained townread on him d3. He was the only person bookitty was always cross townreading with; about everyone else either she accused or they accused her at some point, albeit fairly lightly in some cases.