Mini 1627: Ninja Mini Mafia

[Thor665]

Vote: Varsoon

If you don't do RVS and you don't initiate conversations, how do you expect to fake scumhunt to prevent town from lynching you?

[Thor665]

I see no desire to initiate with me or assess my vote.

My vote is serious now.

[Thor665]

Aww, damn, now I actually have to *read* you. Well, you're probably scum like usual.

In which case you're not voting scum and are voting someone who is voting scum.
Discuss.

[Thor665]

V/LA - Nov 24-27

Intentionally not unvoting prior to v/la

[Thor665]

I don't think he actually cares too much. There's no way that wagon is going through.

Why not?

[Thor665]

Yall msmrfers really like Smurfin with luck an Smurf. Smurf.

What's you issue with the Varsoon wagon at the moment?

[Thor665]

So is it possible to get you to put him on L-1?
I'd like to see if we can get hammer intent and force a claim.

[Thor665]

So is it possible to get you to put him on L-1?
I'd like to see if we can get hammer intent and force a claim.

How is this town at all?

How is it scummy at all?

Claims D1 are pretty much no use to town and all use to scum.

So you're saying we shouldn't ask for a claim before hammer?
Because I disagree with that.
And if you're not saying that - then I fail to see th epoint of this comment. Clarify?

[Thor665]

It's scummy to put a player in lynch range when you'd get literally no info out of it.

How do you plan to get info about people without seeing who they would honestly be willing to lynch? DO we just stand around not lynching and talk about gametheory and then develop really meaningless reads and then lynch? Whoo-hoo - pure town!...?

Thor, you don't want to run me up this game?

I have indicated no desire to avoid running you up.

I'm not going to claim regardless, so if you all want a mislynch on me, I suggest doing it while I'm teaching and not around today.

Yeah, doing a fakeclaim super early on Day 1 is tough because it locks you in if you manage to survive.
So, basically you're just claiming scum. Got it.

Um, probably not. I don't see the point in forcing him to claim this early when we know nothing about anybody. If he's a PR, that would be extremely detrimental to town. If he's not a PR, it's still detrimental to town even if he's VT because it only helps scum to know that at this point.

And if he's scum it's super helpful.
So, in other words, it's the exact same sort of thing as if we force a claim 10 days from now.
Except minus the wait of 10 days.

VOTE: midget
I want to know what Midget got from my wagon, too.

When did you decide random midget's answer was bull-hooey?
Specifically?

Also, sure, I'll help wagon that;

Unvote: Varsoon
Vote: Randommidget

Choo-choo!

I got reactions. Same thing I was doing with that post. Varsoon is coming off as town, so is gamsimbre and Thor are as well.

I can support you getting reactions - to a degree I was doing that too.
However, when I was "done" (though I am not done, I'd still happily lynch Varsoon - I don't support the super shallow town reads on him) I immediately voted elsewhere to get more reactions.
You just sort of walked away and did nothing else with your vote.
Why?

I dunno.
I need some distance from the game before I can read it well.
More people should interact and do stuff.

Yeah, if only more people would play like you we would have a hotbed of interactions.


You just posted a read's list of "I dunno" then clarified it was an empty list, and then, without doing anything yourself, took a stance that people should do things.
Then narf players called that a town reaction.
So weird.
How do you do that? I should learn this for my scum games - it's super effective.

Does anyone want to play the game in the mean time?

Do you?
I mean, seriously - empty comment is empty.

Since that, Thor hasn't really done anything, which makes me just assume he was actually trying to get me to L-1 and force a claim.

You don't need to "think" that - I openly claimed that was my goal - so feel free to "know" that it was my intent.

actually varsoon might be my first actual town read. all those voting him explain please.

I can't explain why you have an empty and shallow town read - you need to explain that to me, not the other way around.
This is a weird question.

Pretty sure the following got asked/answered already, Allyra (especially 'cus I was the one asking the same questions, lol)

oh.

I find this interchange funny.
Because it basically is Varsoon realizing that Allyra hasn't read anything very well - yet not bothering to ask her about it.
Is it just that he's happy to have her townread?
Or is he town who can't figure out how to pressure someone for skimming the game to try to figure out if they're scum or not?

@Varsoon - why don't you have an issue with her blatantly skimming the game, as you realized?
@Allyra - why are you skimming the game so brutally? Why should we pay attention to your reads if you don't read, and how do you expect to catch scum by doing this?

[Thor665]

Thor -

1). I never skedaddle people to explain my town read on varsoon. That was asking people to explain their votes on him.

2). I wasn't skimming the game. I'll admit to maybe missing something as I was drinking wine, but even then I didn't ask those questions because I missed that they had been asked due to "brutal" skimming. I was responding to things as I was reading them. Are you saying my reads shouldn't be listened to because you think I didn't read the first few pages of the game before I replaced in well enough?

1. I have explained my vote on him, would you like to discuss my reasoning?
Also - could you explain your town read anyway now that i've asked. i don't understand it at all.

2. You were clearly doing something wrong as multiple people asked him about that and he provided an answer and it wasn't until someone pointed it out that you expressed awareness of said discussions. if it had been only 1 post I would have just thought 'missed or forgot'. But it was an entire conversation involving basically half a page and about 4 people - how did you miss that simply from wine? And, in awareness that you missed that; what else should I consider that you missed? Because that was a lot to miss so naturally I am now of the opinion that you have little awareness of a lot of the game.

Is there a reason i shouldn't think this?

[Thor665]

Good plan, we should all unvote and read - wouldn't want to create pressure, or ask questions, or drive the game.
Never mind that the wagon on Varsoon was already the most interesting thing and already created info to assess - let's stick to the ol' tried and true "not doing jack" strategy. It is super pro-town!

[Thor665]

Actually, just justify that Randommidget town read - seriously, what the heck did he do that remotely is something that is townish? He did jack all since you voted him.
Walk me through your thoughts here.

[Thor665]

1. In what way did you like his interaction with you?

2. Do you think it matters that you missed things from the pages before you replace in? You seem defensive of me asking about it - so I would say that you do. At that point, why does it remotely make you wonder whether or not I consider it important?

The purpose of the inquiry is to understand your comprehension of the gamestate in order to better gauge the value and scumminess of your presented reads and stances. It's a technique I call 'scumhunting'.

Can you explain your vote on me, while we're discussing how much of the game you do or do not understand and how you may just be learning things through interactions while not interacting in a proactive way with the person you're voting?

[Thor665]

1. Just did. Explain why you're voting him again?

So 'gut' - why did you specifically call it out as separate from gut if your description of it is gut?
I'm voting him because he isn't scumhunting and I want to force a claim.

2. I'm not defensive about it at all. In fact, if someone else had asked that question I probably wouldn't still be on about it. But is it or isn't it your habit to NOT read the prior pages upon replace in? Do you or do you not find them irrelevant to the way you garner reads? I mean correct me if I'm wrong and I'll go full mea culpa here, but if you don't find previous pages of a game worthy of reading upon replace in then why would you be concerned that I seem to have missed some things in those pages so much that you'd oh so smarmily point out that how can I expect to have an understanding of the game with such brutal skimming?

Because if I choose not to read - I specifically state that I didn't read.
You acted like you read yet missed swathes.
One of those is inherently less honest as a stance - smarmy or no.
And, yes, you are being defensive about it - you opened with acting like it wwasn't even a thing, now you're attacking me for questioning you about it - that is defense 101.

Unvote: Randommidget
Vote: Allyra

See it's my belief that if you don't find the previous pages of a game valuable to your understanding of the game when you replace in, then it would not matter to you if I did miss some things in the posts previous to replace in, because meh who cares about previous pages. But for some reason you do. And for some reason you focused on that instead of the current interaction I was having as current.

I actually focused on both your take on the past posts and also your take on current matters - so this is just straight up a strange thing to say. How do you think I avoided your 'current' stuff?

I find it interesting that you didn't interact with boonskies at all, as he's also not fond of the varsoon votes and you haven't commented on that or asked him why. What do you think about his vote on me and the shifting reasons?

I found his reasoning to be fine and thought you were looking more word twisty than him.

My vote on you was partially to see who and how people would respond. I don't so much like some of your posts.

Take this kind of post for instance. I think it's clear that he's taking issue with the idea of running someone up quickly in order to force a claim, not the idea behind the belief of asking for a claim before a hammer. I think you know that, and therefore you're being deliberately obtuse and employing sophistry which I find dishonest and not at all town sounding.

Okay - how did I advance a scum agenda by doing so?
I will admit my "intentional misunderstanding" of him allowed me to question him on his beliefs - but what was my scum plan exactly?

You did a similar thing when you said me asking people voting varsoon to explain was me asking them to explain my town read. I do not think you made that conclusion honestly. I think you were being pedantic because the grammar could have suggested it, but since it is a common enough post you should have come in contact with in several years of playing mafia, I think you understood it quite well.

I did do a similar thing, but, again - your question, if directed to me, was silly as I had been quite open in my beliefs.
Also, my evil word games allowed me to ask you to back up what you were saying while expressing my own thoughts about it - again, what is the scum intent.

I like my new vote.
People should sheep me now.

[Thor665]

Good description of my scum motive.

[Thor665]

Multiple people unvoted while doing nothing deeper. I complained about the one departing from the wagon I was currently supporting.
You decide this means I am scumbuddies with a random other player.
There is a general shrug from me as to the utter lack of logic presented, and a reminder of you ducking my questions from only a few posts ago.

[Thor665]

Whut?

[Thor665]

@Konowa - While you're working her over you should vote her also - just to see what happens.

[Thor665]

You're right.
But at least I don't go into flail desperation when someone pegs me as scum - it does help.

[Thor665]

And your plan to accomplish "showing" everyone is to just cast about wildly, show no case, and try to suggest via innuendo and poor logic that I am scum?

Do you expect that to work? Like, let's say I *am* scuma nd you *are* town just for lulz - I would have zero fear of this push by you doing anything. Literally zero fear - because you haven't even managed to describe a case and everything else is just nattering. Do you think someone, later on, will be sold by this? Really? Because I don't buy that.

I am unsure why I need to defend the premise of Boon's case on you as "sound". I never claimed it was "sound" I claimed it was "fine". There are lots of things peole do that are "fine" to me that I don't agree with on an actual scumhunting scale - I only get tetchy when I consider something anti-town. I also think it would be more important for you to justify the weird word twist dance you're trying to move on him wherein you expect me to buy that when he said 'big wagons' he couldn't possibly mean 'the current biggest wagon whether or not it is small in the grand scope of the game of mafia' and also, by saying 'big wagons' and being factually wrong on 50% of it that it magically makes him scum...because, y'know, as town he'd fact check better. Maybe do that?

Meanwhile, I'll be here, voting scum.

[Thor665]

I'm liking allyra's attack on him. Thor, what are your reads on people apart from allyra and boonskies
Also, why do people keep spelling my name with a double m?

I have actually not offered a read on Boonskies yet. i have offered reads on you and Varsoon. This is also a silly question, because though i am currently only offering three reads, that still puts me at the bleeding edge of 'number of reads offered in this game'.

What do you like about Allyra's attack on me? I actually don't think she's made a single point yet - so I'd love to hear what one of the better one(s?) was.

People spell it with a double 'm' because it is true to the theoretical compounding of the words you used in your name - the real question is why you chose to drop one of them.

[Thor665]

I don't know.

Thor might be Scum for all the typos in that last post.

By my count it was two.
I've done worse than that in other posts of this game.

[Thor665]

I'll be happy to see this case - it will destroy me with its brilliance and not be flail at all, I am certain.

[Thor665]

Clearly since you own me so much I never had a chance - I'm sure the case will show that as well.

[Thor665]

My response to the case so far is - I still don't see the scum case.

She also wilted under pressure like an utter boss there.
Meh.

Unvote: Allyra
Vote: Randommidget

[Thor665]

i didn't replace out under pressure, konowa's a Smurfing Smurf I don't want to play with.

On the presumption that this is your true belief - I have to say you are vastly overreacting and Konowa was being quite reasonable and not mean-spirited in any particular way beyond what you were already doing towards him. I considered you guys to be equal levels of hot towards each other. My opinion to mull over for yourself.

[Thor665]

Thor, was your vote on Varsoon on the first page serious?

All votes are serious - show me someone placing an honestly unserious vote and I will show you someone playing the game fething terribly.
Please treat every single vote I place as deadly serious - I will be doing the same to you already.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _be_Random

I'll need to reread her again to figure out why she thinks Thor is scum.

She did post a case post. You, theoretically, should just be able to read that.
It didn't help me to understand the case but she did compile her issues into a single place.

[Thor665]

Hi Boon.

Thor is scum. Can you vote him please?

Could you tell me your take on Random?

[Thor665]

So you do find Random scummy, but find me more scummy?

[Thor665]

The derp of this wagon.

[Thor665]

How is it super helpful, exactly? We still know nothing about anyone else at that point. Forcing L-1 on page 2 just does not seem like a good tactic to me.

The difference here is defined by what you and I take in as "what we know about anyone else"

To my mind, the important things we get to know about anyone else are the following; do they support the wagon, oppose it, try to start a new one, perform independant research on it, listen to others, et al.

What important things do you think we fail to learn?

[Thor665]

Because an actual replace out suggests the flail wasn't flail but was emotional thrashing - emotional thrashing is alignment neutral and it removes a lot of the scumminess I was getting from her when she power freaked when I began questioning her motives. I had taken it as nervous scum - the actual truth was very tightly wound player. I am not of the opinion that it makes her as solid of a scumspect as I originally thought, therefor I returned to a solid suspect I hadn't explored properly yet.

Why? I thought you agreed with her case, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

[Thor665]

I have provided a reason to vote you.

You haven't provided a reason to vote me.

You have made fun of people lacking reasons to vote.

Discuss.

[Thor665]

Hi Thor,

In our most recent Newbie game you decided to tunnel me all D1 because you 'couldn't read me' and I was 'as good a lynch as any.' You were town that game, so it's understandable if you genuinely cannot read me.

When I noticed you were in this game, I thought to myself 'Here we go, me vs Thor all Day again'. However, that has proven not to be the case. So I ask myself, why does Thor not want to work out my alignment this game? Why has he not proceeded to immediately run me up like thew previous game? Then, I realize, it's because you already know I am town and therefore do not need to engage me.

Discuss.

You are pretty incorrectly remembering that game and our history together.

Also discuss..

[Thor665]

How about you link the post that shows that I did what you say I did for starters?
Or the game.
Or something that backs up your memory?

[Thor665]

Yes...

And here, from that game, is my statement about voting you;

Because I think you are hard to read and otherwise stand a normal chance to be scum so are an excellent Day 1 lynch.

Which, really, has no obligation from my end to vote you if I;

1. Have a better scumread.
2. Think multiple people are also hard to read.
3. Think someone is easier to read and want to get reactions.
4. et al.

If my reasoning had been "I will always lynch you" then you might be on to something. but I voted you at a point you had the most votes upon you - almost (if you squint) as though I was pushing th ebiggest wagon and seeking reactions to it. Which is exactly what I'm doing here and now.

I also then, later (and by later I mean, within 24 hours), got a scumread on you for other reasons;

I'll agree it doesn't make it great either - but that is also beside the point.
People should vote you. This defense is scummy.
You can now add that to my case on you, and now I have other stated reasoning.

Which, again, doesn't really suggest that I only stayed on you simply for the 'hard to read' reasoning, which wasn't even a big part of my original post.
So why do you think it would be a big part of my play now?

Also, as final recollection - we had a big talk about it in the DeadQT of that game;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=59438

And in the DeadQT you made a lot of claims about what you thought I had meant/done and I said you were wrong.
Again, me being dead and a town player, I wasn't lying.
And you decided you knew better than I what I meant and basically walked away in a huff.
And now, apparently, you want to have the discussion again, in game, but make me scum in the passion play of 'BBT not knowing what Thor meant - vol. 2'

So...what did I mean?

[Thor665]

Why? I thought you agreed with her case, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

I don't want to blindsheep my predecessor, and I can't imagine that you want me to go down that path.

although tbh i could and that would save me a lot of work

what was the point of that question?

It was an invitation for you to justify your stance.
You dodged doing so.
Want to try again or explain the dodge some more?

[Thor665]

I mean, when you state something and the first reply is "Why?" that is called a question about your motives.
You avoided it.
Why?

[Thor665]

i mean my stance right now is sort of i'm sheeping my predecessor in my initial reads list and i'm asking questions to refine it

Besides the theory concept that you know your pred was town - why are you sheeping them?
Or is your stance simply that since you know they were honest they were correct?
Or did you read her case on me and were like 'yes, this case makes sense!'

Because both stances seem to beg for further detail.
I'd also like your read on Random.
And, heck, do research on BBT's issue with me (I provided another relevant link in my reply) and tell me what you think of your wagon mate's reasoning.

[Thor665]

@Thor

- I know you like to make big, fluffy posts so I'm going to keep this basic.

The first quote you posted is what I expected you to do this game. Because, you know, you 'can't read me'.

You didn't. The only reason I can discern for why you don't need to try and read me is because you already know my alignment.

I will state again.
You fail to understand what I meant, what I was doing, and what my reasoning was.
Go read that Dead QT again - I flat out told you multiple times it wasn't a policy lynch, and if it wasn't a policy lynch it is nonsensical to expect me to always do it in every game - and also ignores the stated reasons I had to maintain my vote on you.

because you didn't ask "why" when i /stated/ something

i asked you a QUESTION, to which you responded and then asked me

why i asked the question

and why i asked the question should be pretty obvious?

You stated support of Ally's posts.
Why?

[Thor665]

hey thor why did you unvote allyra?

Why?

I thought you agreed with her case

, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

For clarity this is how the conversation went

I agree - wherein I note a statement you made earlier and asked you about it.
Is this semantic derp going somewhere or no?

I'd still like my question answered.

[Thor665]

I now want to policy lynch orcinus for costing me about ten minutes of my life to watch him say nothing.

[Thor665]

You stated support of Ally's posts.
Why?

To be precise - you called them 'good'.
You've now shifted to 'I just supported them because I was still settling myself'.
I feel that's two different claims - clarify?

[Thor665]

Good, then you have plenty of time to address post 297.

[Thor665]

I asked you my question first - and frankly I didn't even see you ask me any questions.
In either case you are dodging.

I support both the Random and Orci slots for lynch.

[Thor665]

Actually, I went back and looked.

You haven't asked me any questions I did not address.

So - yeah, this is blatant dodging on your part - whassup scumboi?

[Thor665]

a continuation of an ongoing discussion are posts that i expect to be answered and if "dodging" is the buzzord of the day i'd suggest your reluctance to continue that discussion barring a direct callout is dodging on your part

Quote the questions you feel I've dodged and we'll work through this issue.
i just called you a liar and claimed they didn't exist - so rub my face in it, yeah?

in any case i called my predecessor's posts "good" because it looked like a solid case. i didn't look into the specifics because i didn't need to, i'm not looking for a case to push, i'm looking for stances to start off and that i can use as my own as i work my way into the game

You literally just described scumplay 101 here.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Random
Vote: Orcinus

[Thor665]

Admit it, after I asked you to back up what you liked about the case you only then went back and actually read what she'd been typing and had to do a saving throw vs. paralysis in trying to come up with a way to justify that you'd just been on record as calling it 'good'.

[Thor665]

i think the push on randommidget is poor on everyone's part because it's a boring target 3 days into the game and seems slightly defensive on your part because the thing you're attacking about him is that he liked allyra's case on you

the choice of randomidget over say goblin, drake crusader, zebulin or gamsimbre also seems very arbitrary.

This is actually contradictory - because you already state awareness of why I pushed on him over those other players. Whether or not you consider it worthwhile is maybe worth debating, but the second point is meaningless flim-flam on your part - because you already know it wasn't arbitrary because you were literally able to describe what he did differently.

Still waiting for those questions I dodged - you were so peeved about that, I'm desperate to answer those for you to chill your rage.
Not yet?
It will wait?
Copy.

[Thor665]

287-290 is a direct continuation of our discussion about my concerns with your line of questioning

And the question(s?) you asked in those posts that i didn't answer are...?

[Thor665]

So what I'm hearing is - you just made up that comment about me not having answered questions, and when I called you a liar for it you decided to just post nothingness while pretending that saying "an ongoing conversation" equates to "questions Thor didn't answer" even though the ongoing conversation had no questions.

Copy.

[Thor665]

Oh, and your comment about 310, and most other things, are, like your questions line, also lies.

[Thor665]

do not listen to thor when he tries to sell you that i went crying to my scum qt to try and figure out what to do

Oh, and for the record - I said absolutely nothing like this.
That said - I'm calling it now, scum have Daytalk.
Winning!

Everyone can sheep me now.

[Thor665]

The only quote you asked for was for the question that you eventually answered - you are well aware that you were dodging it and are equally aware of when you finally muddled out an answer for it - and are also aware that I stopped asking you to answer it immediately after you did.

You also claimed scum already.

[Thor665]

Well, I understand what 324 is saying, so sure;

the thing you're attacking about him is that he liked allyra's case on you

I'm not sure why I need to remind you of things you said and that I literally was quoting already in the post you're quoting of me asking me to quote them back to you.

Can you explain what you mean in Post 322?
It seems like a defense of your slip - but I literally don't know what you're saying, and I'd like to give you a chance to spell it out.

[Thor665]

because no there were no questions in the strict sense but we were having a discussion about how i found your line of questioning scummy and then you avoided replying to it

No, we were having a conversation about how I found your dodging scummy, and you were posting walls defending your dodge.

And, yeah, when you then complain that I didn't answer your questions when you never asked any questions - that is also scummy.
Literallly all those posts are you trying to justify your actions - there are no questions there to be answered, and I already indicated that I found your answers to just be further dodging, so I'm not sure what "questions" you expected me to respond to. I responded to the posts - which is the best you can hope for when you don't ask questions.
You then tried to paint that as scummy to further cover up your dodge.

Any other "questions" for me?

[Thor665]

when, if ever, did you answer the questions in the following two posts

Why? I thought you agreed with her case, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

I don't want to blindsheep my predecessor, and I can't imagine that you want me to go down that path.

although tbh i could and that would save me a lot of work

what was the point of that question?

Like I'm sort of confused considering you had that bit earlier in the game about how you were asking people questions in order to understand their motivations + POV

and then a replacement comes in, asks you a question, and then you sort of snarkily respond with a "oh durrrr i thought you were scumreading me huh? HUH?"

isn't that kind of weird?

because you didn't

Yeah, I "didn't"...except when I did.

Post 273 was directly responded to in this post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6416756
Post 275 was indirectly answered here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6416758

Whassup?

You remain scum.

Thor, why do you keep getting into arguments with people?

Because I engage people seeking reactions.

What do you think of Orcinus' claim of being scum?

[Thor665]

My basic take on my Day 1 lynch was 'wow, this town will sheep anything'.
The game result seems to hold water to my original belief

I thought it was an okay game, town had an immense amount of problem coordinating with each other though. There needed to be more cooperation methinks.

[Thor665]

Thor definitely has a very interesting way of doing things. Some of his comments day 1 were like "holy crap, that is one of the most scummy things I've heard someone say." Posts like 46 to be specific.

For the record, I consider that pro-town play and advocate it as solid strategy for town to do.

[Thor665]

You may be the only person in the world that thinks pushing someone to L-1 and getting them to claim on page 2 of the game is pro-town.

I am sorry that I am the only one who sees clearly

Nope, I like it as well.

How is that a good play for town? If it's scum or VT, we get back VT, and if it's a PR, then we just killed a PR on Day 1. How is that possibly good for town?

Though I disagree with the specifics you're noting here, I will agree that, at the end, we get a true town claim or a false scum claim - now, how is that different from a claim at any other point in the day?

I think pushing for claims that early is a Smurfy tactic, actually, and quite scummy. It gives an extremely small amount of information compared to what town gains from even the most standard methods.

Like what methods?
Because the early push claim gives you a wagon, reactions to the wagon, and a claim - all of which are, I'm of the opinion, the core components of information available to town on Day 1.

^ But it's not like the only two options are super fast pushes are extremely long days. There are middle grounds. The problem is a lot of townies lack initiative and decision-making.

But by this point all you're arguing is the timeline. You seem to be of the opinion that some time is "too short" to get a claim and some time is "too long" my stance is that the time element is a mental lie - the only negatives to short is 'getting everyone involved/commenting' and the only negatives to long is 'diminishing interest/activity'.

So, basically, what I want is for everyone to come in, RVS, and then in another page or 2 get an aggressive wagon push - this gets everyone commenting, gives you feedback, and avoids grind.

What middle ground do you support and on what basis?

[Thor665]

I disagree that activity and pushes equates to a scum smokescreen. Or, at least if it does, it's an inherent smokescreen - as lethargy and lack of activity allows a lurking smokescreen for scum, so basically all you're really saying is 'scum who already play that way will look more natural in the environment' to which I'll say 'sure?'. But that's not an inherent weakness of the playstyle - there will always be some scum who blend better in it than others - that's the nature of the game.

As far as PR reveals I see no reason why a claim early in the game is any more or less likely to reveal a PR than a claim later in the game - and I presume you're still okay with claims happening.

[Thor665]

The difference between the early push and a mid-day push is that by mid-day is that others have made more posts and scum have already promoted and committed to certain ideas which leaves them less wiggle room as an early push. The early push is good for scum only pretty much.

So really your debate is not about an aggressive push - it is about an aggressive push only after "people have committed to ideas".
I submit that the only ideas worth seeing who commits to is about who is willing to push what - so my rejoinder is that all a mid day push is - is an early push that took a while to happen.
Thoughts?

I disagree. You have to realize that playing others is half the game and forcing super early claims isn't that helpful in that regard. The biggest negative is not allowing scum to display their approach towards the game and it throws townies off more than it does scum. Keep in mind I'm not advocating last second wagons.

I see no reason why an early push is more disruptive to townies than to scum.
I agree that playing others is part of the game.
My point is - the valid information from others is based around who they are or are not genuinely willing to push - so the earlier we get to pushing the sooner we get that info and the sooner legit scumhunting can begin, all of which seems immensely pro-town to my mind.

Really? If you don't allow any natural game development then it leaves no time for you to formulate good town reads thus knowing who you want to avoid forcing to claim. A page 2 l-1 claim like you were advocating is pure Russian Roulette.

Are you seriously telling me that after a few pages you don't already kind of know who you are not valuing as an early push and who you are? I usually get a few townreads very early, and the others I don't get until serious pushes start happening or till day 2+ neither of which is negatively impacted by an earlier push - the first push of the day is almost always on some pants-on-head player or an experienced player who said something daft (or something people believe is daft) in regards to a wagon. It doesn't matter if it happens on page 5 or on page 15 except for the amount of time you waste getting to that point, and I also submit that very little legit scumhunting happens until that point is reached - so why delay it? So people can debate game theory and tell jokes? I don't buy that.

[Thor665]

I mean, how's this for a challenge - show me a serious Day 1 wagon that is *not* formed based off of how someone reacted to a wagon push (ruling out Daypower PRs - natch).
That is what basically all serious Day 1 wagons are based off of, and, off that early wagon comes the reactions that then form future Day 1 wagons and the basis for most read sets throught the remainder of the game. So, the true goal for scumhunting, in my mind, is to make that early, serious, people placing votes they mean, wagon to happen asap so scumhunting can commence in earnest.

You appear to be arguing the same thing but are trying to tell me that a slow build to that wagon somehow generates "better" reads...I don't get it, all the reads will be based off reactions to wagons. Usually the slow start of Day 1 is predicated on people not manning up and committing to a wagon.

Honestly, if I could have my way, I'd want to be able to replace into every game I play at the point that an L-1 wagon has formed - because at that point I can start scumhunting.
Prior to that, it's waiting for an L-1 wagon to be formed - because until that point you've got very little to go on.

[Thor665]

I would not support a lottery lynch. What I want is a lynch (And, I'll actually agree that I think the accuracy of a Day 1 lynch *is* lottery like) but that said, I want to see people either support or oppose the wagon, and hear thoughts as to why prior to seeing the flip. Reactions to a wagon are as (and, in my opinion, more) useful than the flip info itself.

@Orc - d'awwww, I lurvs you too.

[Thor665]

I think that says something really strange about you, FF.