Mini 1642: The Burning (GAME OVER FLAMES HAVE ENGULFED TOWN)

[copper223]

VOTE: Acryon

@Boon
You tell me..

[copper223]

I like you radiant

VOTE: Victor

[copper223]

@Victor
Sure Victor, I think she is the towniest out of RVS and I don't like your vote and the posturing you did before casting it, it reminds me of my partner House in a previous game with Acryon.

@Fish
The idea of a policy lynch on Boon is retarded, he is trolly sometimes but he subbed in my last town game and got endgamed (I was killed the night before) because town unfourtunately was in a bad spot but by the end he had both the scumteam pegged, I've played with both Boon scum and Boon town and he looks more of the town variety here. I'm also getting town vibes from you but your scumhunting needs work as far as I can tell.

@Futan
, also seems town, mostly for the I have no idea comment.

[copper223]

If that's the case, pot meet kettle

[copper223]

@Acryon
Aren't you bad at reading Boon? I'm wondering if your smiley entrance means it's payback time.

[copper223]

@Acryon
It does make sense to be cautious given what you described, I'll think about it.

@Victor
Ah you mean because I'm leaning town on radiant, as a follow up to the buddy accusation? I always look for both scum and town.

I thought you ment you were town so I had good "townhunting" skills as a snide comment of my scumread on you and I replied you would be doing the same with your vote on me.

[copper223]

@Eektor
woops, I am playing a shitton of games and did not even check the setup for this one, I thought it was just open, where can I see the roles?

[copper223]

Lol I totally missed radiant was innocent child, I thought it was strange one of you was calling her an IC but maybe she was very active in the newbie queue.

@Victor
In fact I have excellent town hunting skills.

[copper223]

Hey Coop, if your claiming to have missed Radiant being IC, care to explain how you formed such an early townread on him?

I already told you, the way she voted for you and the reason she gave was by far the best coming out of RVS, you can re-read all my posts and you can see I keep talking of town reading her, why would I townread a confirmed?

I also don't need to pull this kind of stupid gambits to win as scum, as the players who have played with me before can attest to.

[copper223]

Buddy I have a 100% winrate as scum and I have never been lynched in a game minus my last one with Acryon where I sacked myself to kill the confirmed doc and got a wagon of only townies to vote for him winning easily at lylo after I was lynched, I think my scumplay is good enough.

[copper223]

I am telling you it's a shit play as scum.

What am I doing this for? Best case you believe me and every night I don't get killed I am under more WIFOM suspicion, resulting for sure in an alignment check sooner or later if available or me getting lynched, and as you said there is always the chance I get insta-lynched because you don't believe my claim I have an early townread on Radiant. The fact I don't do these kind of things is why I have a 100% winrate as scum.

[copper223]

The more you try to tunnel on me despite logic, the happier I am as well because it increases the chances of you being scum.

[copper223]

I don't think monkey is likely scum, he reads more annoyed/disinterested in his exchange with former rather than nervous or pressured as I would expect more from scum.

Not being willing to conform to RVS is whatever, I can't really get a read off of that.

[copper223]

@Toon
That is not gloating, Victor claimed I tried to buddy up to the IC by faking a townread on her and that I am scum for it, I explained I consider that a bad play (do you disagree?) and provided evidence as to why it is statistically unlikely for me to play like this.

Voting players off because you dislike them or because they don't conform to MS culture is a bad trait that scum often uses to mislynch, I think this is mainly what is going on with Monkey, I can see some of his comments being defensive but this wagon is getting way too many nods of approval in such a short span to be exclusively town driven.

[copper223]

VOTE: Toon
That readlist is also very opportunistic, you go after Monkey (most scumread), Victor (being scumread by the IC and collecting some FoS), myself (being questioned for the dumb tell) and Eektor, who looks very much town to me and is a minor OMGUS from you, so more of a threat mitigation read as far as I can tell, I also dislike you expressing caution to vote for someone based on wagon size.

[copper223]

I don't see the beetlejuice on Elbrin, why do you say his activity is correlated to him being mentioned Eektor?

[copper223]

@Victor

Or to put this a more factually accurate way; I said you were buddying the IC by saying you liked her vote and sheeped it. I also don't think you can take a few scum wins and I say it's now statistically unlikely you will do anything as scum that would mean a player could catch. In fact it's probably the most spurious argument I've heard in a while.

anyone that can read would catch that, so Acryon for instance should be able to tell you it would be unusual for Copper_scum as I had to navigate a 20 page cc battle without slipping about his role PM.

In fact now that I know the mod put it in after the game started I'm not happy with him about it.

What is spurious is your argument that I did it because I did it, when I gave you a logical breakdown of why I think it's bad for me to do so I would not intentionally and you just ignored it.

I also find really questionable your statement about why shouldn't I

townread

the IC, because if you know about the IC that statement is a lie, I would not read anything about her as I would already know, your interpretation there is very forced.

I'm not voting you because Toon is and his readlist was very opportunistic which I find scummier than an OMGUS bad tunnel which can sometimes come from town as well.

[copper223]

Not once have provided any logical explanation for anything, you simply keep telling to me your apparently such a great scum player, you wouldn't be caught out doing scummy things.

What am I doing this for? Best case you believe me and every night I don't get killed I am under more WIFOM suspicion, resulting for sure in an alignment check sooner or later if available or me getting lynched, and as you said there is always the chance I get insta-lynched because you don't believe my claim I have an early townread on Radiant.

It was response to you originally trying to claim that scum wouldn't be publicly town reading the IC. It's trivial for any player of any alignment to call a conftown town. It's simply another case of you trying to force a towntell out of nothing.

It's not trivial, it's highly suspect if you assume I prepared that as a gambit, because the only logical conclusion you can draw is I should know she is town so I should not be reading her, that is exactly what Eektor asks me about in his post and what I would expect, so what you should have said if you thought that was the case is: Copper's trying to further "show" us he has no clue about Radiant by faking a read on her is what is happening there, instead your line is that any town or scum would do so because it's

neutral to townread a confirmed

, which is absolute BS (as Eektor's immediate questioning of me about it when it happened shows).

VOTE: Victor

[copper223]

If Victor or one of Monkey/Former turn out to be scum, review Elbrin snd Eektor because that's a tvt is sometimes scumcode for my teammate is arguing with a town.

[copper223]

@Victor

You can stop trying to dress this up as something it isn't Coop. You tried to subtly buddy the IC (yeah, I still think it's more likely you knew Radiant was conftown and tried to get her on side than you being too busy to read the big red bold posts and so derpy as to read IC as inexperienced challenged over innocent child)

Gambit or not it's irrelevant for my point in 162, you said you believe it's likely I knew her alignment and tried to buddy up, but you then say it's normal for me as scum (or town but that's not relevant here) to just give a townread on her because that is not alignment indicative.

I call BS on that, townreading her is going to bring suspicion on me because it's unnatural, and if you really believed my plan was to buddy up the IC (can you explain why I would do so?) then what I would have expected from you is a reinforcement at that point, aka Copper is confirming his bogus fake read of the IC, not saying what you did there is neutral and it has never been alignment indicative for me in another game.

[copper223]

@Victor
The reason why I'm asking you these questions is to try and understand if you have legitimate reasons or are scum, and nothing to do with being patronising or rethorical.

What you just gave are cookie cutter definitions for nulltells and buddying, the problem is these definitions don't make sense in the context you are using them and the beliefs you are expressing.

You say I buddy up to radiant because scum may find it a good idea to do so to get more votes, that's what buddying is, but you fail to address why I chose radiant, a player that is confirmed, there are major consequences for me choosing her, which I gave to you in 162 and that you couldn't care less about apparently, it would be a reasonable belief from you if your line is I missed she is an IC and chose her as my buddy target, instead you say I knew she was an IC and chose her, so why aren't you trying to figure out why I picked her in particular instead of applying the standard definition of buddying for this case? The two clash.

You say giving a townread on confirmed town is a null tell, but your expressed belief in this game is that I am trying to fake a townread on the IC, for you it should not be a null tell, it should be proof I'm trying to sell said bogus read. Once again these two approaches clash.

My conclusion is you are giving these definitions because you think they are proper but the context where you apply them doesn't make sense and doesn't match your beliefs, so likely your beliefs are a lie and you are faking the scumhunting, it goes back to what radiant first picked up on about using absolute tells.

That's fine, I also don't want to make this a 1v1 show, while you ignore me I'll try my best to get you lynched.

[copper223]

@Eektor

@copper Are you saying if Victor, Monkey or Former is scum, check me and Elbirn or are you saying if Victor is scum check Elbirn and if either Monkey or Former is scum check me?

Sorry if the formatting was unclear, I'm saying if Victor is scum check Elbirn, if Monkey/Former is scum check you.

[copper223]

@Elbirn
The lurking accusation is unfounded.

[copper223]

@Elbirn

Any thoughts, Cooper?

I think you are likely buddies, you just switched from a tvt to a tvs on us and used arguments that were already present in the thread when you made your first read, care to justify why you changed your mind? Possibly because the association now is already there after I mentioend it.

I already said why I was leaning town on Radiant at the time, her vote on Victor out of RVS made a lot of sense to me because I also saw that as possibly scum indicative, particularly because I just finished a game with House as a scumbuddy and he often used this kind of absolute reads to justify himself.

Why are you painting it as if I never said where I got my misterious read on Radiant, when nothing in my ISO supports that?

[copper223]

@Acryon
I'm also not a fan of your play this game, why are you hedging so much on your opinions?

[copper223]

@Elbirn
I am not buying any of that, if you can kindly tell me who the third is?

@All
For the players that did not roll mafia, I said she was the most town out of RVS, not that I had a really strong townread. Seeing someone making the first good case in the game, thus scumhunting

and

on someone I believe was worth investigating, is a perfectly valid way to get a townread because the player in question is demonstrating, to the best of my knowledge, that she is playing according to town's win condition.

[copper223]

@Victor
Again with the misreps, Radiant is not the only player I said was leaning town on, mainly the first and the one that stood out the most out of RVS. Yes the fact he suspects me is clearly why I called Elbirn likely scum... the only joke is you are still around to talk.

[copper223]

I see what you mean Acryon, after checking 1627 and losing a mylo like that can take away some confidence, just based on the people pushing you, you are probably town here.

[copper223]

[copper223]

@Monkey
Now this is interesting and unexpected.

What do you like of Elbirn's play?

[copper223]

@Monkey
So the best you have as far as scumhunting goes, mid D1, is let's sheep Elbirn because his confidence seems very townish?

[copper223]

Quick meta check tells me it's more likely monkey is a town VI, and that vote is more bad than scummy.

[copper223]

No, it's a bad vote regardless because the reason for it is terrible, plus you are already 50% there for sure and given how hard both Victor and Elbirn are trying to discredit the idea they are scum together (why would you need to do so as town, I would like my fellow townies to ask themselves) I'd say it's above 75% even by your wacky metric.

[copper223]

@Monkey
Your vote is objectively bad, the only thing I'm trying to do is understand is how bad vs how scummy you are. what gives you the idea I am nervous?

@Elbirn

1 Oh I see, it's meant to be a joke isn't it. Because everyone suspecting you must have got a scum PM. Oh how witty you are.

What's wrong with voting Copper? I'm about to do it, am I scum too?

How rude. Your accusation doesn't even make sense, if I'm confirmation biasing then I really think you are scum, but appartenly, since you are happy about your vote, in your fanatasy world I should know you are town.

[copper223]

@Former

@Copper- I would appreciate if you don’t call my view point retarded. You can disagree and voice that, but you don’t have my experience and you don’t think the way that I do, so I will give you a pass on that first one. If you do it again I will probably burn you to the fucking ground. And don’t think I didn’t notice the subtle discredit towards what I have to say by attacking my scumhunting. You say that Monkey seemed annoyed/disinterested in regards to my line of questioning. Do you feel like that was an appropriate way for him to feel based off the questions I was asking, or do you feel like that was off? I glazed over when you are VDA started going at it again. I don’t see this as scum theater, so you guys both being scum is out. Anything else is yet to be determined.

I apologize if you felt personally insulted by the tone of the comment but other than that I will restate the point as often as necessary using milder language to avoid bad decisions for my alignment based on personal biases, it's not the job of the other players to conform to a set of rules to allow them to be read by you (which would make it extremely easy to blend in as scum if those rules were known) it's your job to scumhunt and every lynch you waste on policy is one where you are less likely to lynch scum.

I feel like that was not scum indicative, monkey_scum doesn't have a vested interest in aggravating former_town by brushing him off because you would probably continue to scumread him for the rest of the day like you are doing now reducing his chances of survival, monkey_town is more likely to be annoyed by the attention and tell you to move on.

[copper223]

why?

[copper223]

@Acryon
makes sense.

@All
In our previous game town_Acryon and a lot of the playerbase thought blindmewithscience, who did not see one of the players was a hydra, might be townslipping, so that's not scum indicative for him.

[copper223]

You guys should tell me what I am missing, from here it looks like you are the ones missing the use of the word

might

in my post about the other game.

This is how I interpreted it after the correction, paraphrasing: I see it as a null tell, I made that statement to counterbalance the idea that it was a scumslip, because if you want to view it as a slip I'd say it's more likely a townslip.

This is similar to his opinion there taking into account 2 different players and 2 slightly different tells on what was missed, which went along the lines of: maybe it's valid but I will consider it only for today or at most tomorrow.

Let me know if that is incorrect. As for the self serving

[copper223]

As Monkey's wagon is already quite big, and I don't want to put him at L-2 at this stage, I'll VOTE: Victor, but am willing to move to Monkey if needed.

I can see a Toon/Victor buss, the vote above looks like: let me do something useful like distancing myself from my teammate while I wait for some more time to pass before I mislynch lynchbait Monkey, to me.

Victor giving Toon as his third scumread, rich of you to go for 2 potential OMGUS scumreads after what you told me about my Elbirn scumread, would also make sense in this scenario.

@All
If you take some time to meta him, Monkey is the kind of player that gets himself vig. shot D1, so unless you agree with former about policy lynches I'd be weary of scumreading him considering how many players are happy to.

[copper223]

@Victor
No, Elbirn switched his read on our interaction from tvt to tvs, using arguments from posts that were already there when he gave his first read, which makes it likely those reads are not real, and that was why I started scumreading him. Coincidentally he did so after I said to check him if you flip scum (before any possible OMGUS element was introduced). Eektor also said Elbirn's earlier posting was scummy (personally that did not ping me), so as usual what you are saying here, about him being a saint before and my vote being only OMGUS based, is BS.

My third is Toon, as I already mentioned, I know it's hard to check and be bothered as scum but at least take notice of the first guy that makes a case on a "scumread" of yours.

[copper223]

He doesn't even know or pretends not to that the player in question would be Victor.

[copper223]

@Victor
Sure, it's possible as town as well but his reply about glossing over and only noticing after a re-read that there were plenty of supposed misreps on my side which he doesn't mention, the argument he used to justify why he did flip his reads in 187 combined with the timing of the switch and the follow up vote makes it unlikely. Why for instance would you drop a tvt on 2 players scumreading each other without first reading what they are saying as town, is one of the first things I asked myself, so he is a scumread of mine.

I said what I said, quit taking parts out of context to push an agenda, he was not a townread for everyone before and I did not just jump on him after he voted me, as you have been trying to make it out to be.

[copper223]

@Radiant

- SiX is a null/fence townread from PoE and because there doesn't seem to be much of an agenda he is pursuing, he may be scum playing it dumb as well but if this is the case it should become more obvious the more he posts.

- Victor is likely scum, I think you all know why I think so.

- Futan is leaning town, I've played a D1 with him where I was scum and he was town and I don't see much difference in his play here.

[copper223]

@Radiant
Futan Game

[copper223]

@Former
Unless you played another game with Monkey where you nailed him, I do not see why he would behave as you say, if Monkey flips town and this is unusual for Former think again about his alignment, I do not like the indirect support to Victor's reads he is giving here.

[copper223]

@Toon
VOTE: Toon Fighter
Since you voted for Victor yourself and apparently had scumread on him you should know, did you forget because your vote was not counted?

As Monkey's wagon is already quite big, and I don't want to put him at L-2 at this stage, I'll VOTE: Victor, but am willing to move to Monkey if needed.

I was voting for Victor because there is evidence he is fake scumhunting, see 168, because his tunnel on me does not look like town, he doesn't seem to care about my alignment and seems more interested in getting the mislynch in, see the OMGUS misrep for instance 251 or plenty of other cases.

[copper223]

@Cheetory
I always play like this, in my first game onsite I gave a readlist with very few nulls on page 3, that was newbie 1543. I make a distinction between a fenceread, a townlean and a townread, so regarding thise names I do have a townread on Eektor, I am close to a townread on Boon, I am leaning town on everyone else minus SiX, on whom I have a fenceread.

Victor posturing like that is not silly, it's scummy because he doesn't really care about what your answer is going to be, just about trying to "win" the argument.

[copper223]

I also already brought up the same argument about him saying that I both saw she was an IC

and

just casually buddied up to her you are making and why his ISO doesn't support the two beliefs, see 168, the point about me giving town reads about other players as well and Victor ignoring them because that is not part if the agenda he is pushing is well taken.

VOTE: Victor

It's a race for the scummiest D1 player award between you and Toon at this point.

[copper223]

Didn't I already respond to 168...checks ISO...yep, been there done that. I guess your heart simply was never in that Toon push after all. That's something people might want to take note of in case Toon flips scum later.

that's a perfectly logical conclusion, not. Once again fabricating a scumread on me, this time by association which would imply I was the first to make a solid case on my teammate Toon twice, not your best attempt.

I'm sure your follow-up will help people when they read back, it certainly did not convince me, if anything that "reply" made me read you as more likely scum because you failed to address the points I raised and just dismissed them or found something to call me scum for.

[copper223]

I don't think I need to say more than I have, but what I was pointing out wasn't simply to incriminate you, but to point out the shift in your vote. The most notable thing was that Toon did not doanything to seem townier since you voted him. You haven't mentioned anything new either, everything you said in 168 was on the table before. So what's changed since you shifted wagons? One thing, Cheety moved his vote to me, giving my wagon a little more weight. And that's why I'm alluding to.You decided to rejoin the wagon after Cheety voted me and I reckon that's because you sensed a more opportune vote. A don't think a townie shifts back the way you did in this situation (particularly for the reasons you gave) but let's see others think.

This is again false, Toon replied to my accusations saying he really forgot, something that while unlikely is not completely impossible, so I read that as marginally less scummy, and in the mean time you got into an argument with Chetoory who brought up a further point about why your tunnel on me is inconsistent, which I did not think about, so you also managed to look even more scummy, hence the vote shift.

1 Well there you go folks, I failed to convince Coop he was scum, so I guess my comments had no merit.

Never said this, I said it did not make me change my mind, if others find it convincing it's up to them (like I wrote), although I would be surprised, misrep again.

2 Really, because if you go back and see the following pages it's notable that you completely ignored my response. If it was so bad that it made you scumread me more then why not say something? You wanted me lynched right? If it was true that I didn't address your points (it's not but that's beside the point) then why would let go of a chance to help persuade others?

I did say so multiple times, I also linked my accusations multiple times, I know you barely read the posts but please.

3 I explained clearly why I was dismissing your invalid arguments.

No.

4 I have to say, finding scummy things your done in your attempts to defend has been a fairly easy task.

I am sure it's not that hard when this is your main objective, more than anything this statement shows your likely alignment.

[copper223]

@Cheetory
I will reply as I like, thank you very much.

[copper223]

@All
I don't appreciate people telling me how to play but it's true walling is not helpful to town, especially because more than one of you has given signs that they can't be assed to read posts longer than a paragraph, so I'll stop replying to Victor, if you have questions for me ask them.

Victor is scum, above 90% as far as I'm concerned, I'll go as far as say if you lynch him and he flips town I'll be happy to leave the game.

[copper223]

@Cheetory

1. 168

2. The kind of tunnel on me, this can't really be summed up but if you take the time to read the back and forth it's chock-full of attempts to call me scum, discrediting, and misrepping, he gives you a glimpse of his state of mind in the quote I bolded in 301, that is not a town mindset.

3. 296

4. His treatment of Elbirn, he never mentions him before Elbirn votes me and after that he starts passionately defending the guy 257 285, there is no attempt to sort out Elbirn's motives as you would expect from a townie that doesn't really know why someone is supporting him, just acceptance and defense, this hints at Victor knowing Elbirn's alignment (and also at the two of them being buddies). You can make the same kind of connection from Elbirn's side as well.

[copper223]

@SiX
Are you trolling?

[copper223]

@Futan
Since you keep pushing past game meta, what looks the same to you in these two games?

[copper223]

Fuck you idiot, wait for the guy to flip scum then beg forgiveness, just to reply in kind. If you have a question use a civil tone or don't expectt an answer.

[copper223]

@Cheetory
Strange sense of humor indeed.

1. My definition of buddying is irrelevant, what is relevant is Victor's stated belief: Copper a)knew Radiant was IC and b) decided to buddy her as scum, and the questions he asks me, the two don't match, as you said if you think I did that as scum then you try and figure out why I did it, instead he dismisses the fact the I buddied a known player, never backtracks on his idea that I knew from the start, when it would fit his belief much more if I just blundered and decided to buddy a player that was actually confirmed, there is no updating his reads or ideas based on the conversation, he instead just plows on trying to scumread me, that does not make sense for a townie, it does for scum if your game plan is to pick someone you think did something scummy (like missing the info on the IC) and proceed 1v1 him for the rest of D1 to show the rest of town you are scumhunting, he also already lined up Acryon as a possible lynch tomorrow, where I to flip, by saying he may be WKing me.

2. Possible but unlikely, it's not about how abrasive you are, it's about how close minded he is and about how the most important thing for him is trying to show Copper is scum which again doesn't make sense as town, this is not some sort of cc battle where a townie would know he is playing against scum. I started to behave like him the more I became certain he is scum, at the start I was totally open to both possibilities and even now if I find a player scummier, like Toon a few pages ago, I shift my focus, he gave no indication of doing so.

3. Again possible, but unlikely.

[copper223]

He was obviously being jokey. Don't get defensive and dodge here cop.

Fuck you, jk. Lol what?

[copper223]

I think the issue was actually whether you WKed Cooper actually. A lot of that depends on whether Cooper flips town.

[copper223]

The connection with Acryon is not so tenuous as you want to make it out to be:

- Victor opened up with a semi-serious vote on Acryon for promising not to lynch Boon after RVS. This is in line with my theory on his gameplan (find the player that does something scummy and tunnel, he then saw me vote for him and buddy the IC, so I became more of a priority lynch and he thought he had a good case to make so he switched his tunneling focus to me)

- Before I posted my connection I was looking at the players Victor was pushing on and I noticed Acryon, Futan, Monkey and SIX being targets. I think the others are mainly lynchbait, but Acryon sticks out.

Why do you think it's scummy I am trying to get associative reads, strong or weak, from the player I think is scum by the way?

I'll wait for the situation to clarify, if needed I will give my reads on the game without flips and in the remote case that Victor flips town, because I have seen some possible signs of scum positioning themselves on the two main wagons, if both wagons happened to be town, and that would change my reads quite a lot.

[copper223]

You should be PL lynched every game if you are town

[copper223]

@Former
I agree, but because it's a PL, not because of the target!

Actually let's live in the world where you are scum, I admit I'm pretty surprised by the votes coming in, so I have to consider the case where scum is now opportunistically placing themselves for VCA:

I don't like coppers most recent posts, I feel like he is over reacting to things and

has lost sight of any kind of objectivity.

If I have

lost

sight of any kind of objectivity why would that make me scum?

[copper223]

I don't even know what to tell you guys.

1. Discredit again.

2. Lynching = pushing, misrep nr 16500.

[copper223]

I mean but in the case you're trying to build, aren't pushing and lynching at least close to synonymous?

No, why do you say so?

As scum he may be pushing to see if they slip and become and easy mislynch, pushing for towncred (look I'm scumhunting), pushing to line up a lynch tomorrow, other reason I can't think about now.

[copper223]

I guess you should specify it then. Even in your case it doesn't have to be, plus Victor was likely not focusing solely on your name yes?

[copper223]

@Eektor
Monkey is lynchbait, lynchbait may also be scum but it's a hard read D1, this is similar to Acryon's argument about Boon (although I'd take Boon over Monkey any day if they are both town) and I don't like the people willing to lynch him.

[copper223]

The point of that list was to show why I made an Acryon Victor connection and my interpretion of it, I explicitly said your name stuck out amongst the others so why are you saying I "lumped" you together?

[copper223]

Nope

[copper223]

I already told you that pushing /= lynching, pushing on lynchbait that is also town is easy towncred, they make you want to lynch them, town likes to see you pressure lynchbait because hey, they are scummy hence that guy is likely scumhunting, this doesn't mean scum_Victor wants to lynch them, he may if it is useful for him, he may also not, that has been your assumption from the start that I do not share.

Since I don't consider you lynchbait, why were you in that group is the question I asked myself, and my first impulse was to say, since Victor started on you out of RVS and you are voting him, you are his escape plan if my lynch goes through. Gotta say based on bot your reactions I think I may have stumbled into something else.

[copper223]

If lynchbait isn't lynchbait for scum, then who is it lynchbait for? The only thing that makes them lynchbait is that it's easy for scum to push the town in their direction. And I think that would actually be a better case than what you're making, because a lot of these pushes are very soft, and I think you're really stretching.

No, what makes them lynchbait is most players want to lynch them, regardless of what scum does and what alignment you are, scum see it as an easy mislynch and possibly a trap to avoid (depending on what kind of scum they are), town thinks they may be scum because they are acting scummy.

I am not pushing anything, I said Victor is scum for completely different reasons, since this connection also came up while I was re-reading and it made sense in the context of my reads, I mentioned it (5 words I believe), you are questioning me on this like it's the most important thing that happened today so I'm talking about it, to accuse me of focusing on this is plain false.

Pretty sure Victor and copper are both scum here. Let's take out Victor and move on to the next one guys.

I have gone on record in scum QT's saying I do not bus D1, I think it's extremely dumb and I would never do it.

You are taking a null stance on most of what matters to me in the game when asked, something you never did in our last game, you are voting Victor but questioning me (and I don't understand where you are going with your questions, some of them don't even make sense), so there is something weird going on which I do not understand.

[copper223]

You should read properly, I said I have told my scumbuddies in other games I do not bus, let alone 1v1, and I had no reason to lie to them there, nor have I ever bussed D1 in any of my scum games on the forum.

[copper223]

Maybe you hadn't ever done it in the past and that was truthful then, but how is that assurance that you aren't doing it now? You know better than that copper.

If I think it's a bad play I think so all the time, maybe a meteorite will fall onto your head in the next 5 seconds, better get meteorite insurance, oh wait they don't sell that.

[copper223]

@Futan

@Futon - Do you have a previous town game you could link me?

[copper223]

I used the same ploy last game with Acryon before joining his wagon D1, if as I think Victor is scum and if you are town it prepares the ground for a mislynch in the future if need be, it also makes it look like he is really trying to figure you out in the mean time.

[copper223]

@Futan
I also find it suspicious that Victor started his "investigation" of you after Radiant put you in her 4 reads request.

[copper223]

@Eektor
I am not too far away from what Victor stated if he were to flip town. Acryon hedging and null reading most of the situation and now insisting this is svs may be scum trying to get a double whammy, but I see it more as likely dumb town.

Moneky would immediately jump to the top of my scumreads because the pressure early game he received from the Victor faction would be more town driven, and other than having what I believe to be a bad wagon forming early on him I have seen nothing remotely town from Monkey. I would be pretty confident either Monkey or Formerfish are scum in this case.

Toonfighter also looks bad in this scenario for the opportunistic reads he gave early on and for staying on the Victor bandwagon without giving much justification.

I am unsure about the third, could be Boon for doing what he says he does as mafia and which he did in 1623 with Flubber when I played with him, but as of now I don't see it, he also said he can't read me while I would have expected a fat townread if he were playing his standard pocket game.

I would townread Elbirn and lean more town on Futan in that situation, I would also question Cheetory, who looks pretty town at the moment, a bit more, but probably still think he is town for trying to figure the situation out.

[copper223]

I wouldn't mind a vig shot on Acryon after that comment.

[copper223]

In fact Acryon is a very good check in general because his play has been very murky today, whether I flip or Victor flips should help you eith a lot of players and he is not one of them.

[copper223]

Why are you hesitating if you think I'm scum?

[copper223]

@Futan
I can see Monkey being scum if he is more lurky when he is, if I'm wrong on Victor. I don't think I am though.

I don't like telling people how they are supposed to play so Radiant can do whatever, personally I do disagree with Boon, I would also abuse the fact I'm confirmed if I thought it would bring an advantage and since she hasn't explained her play we don't know what she is after.

SiX should be prodded soon.

[copper223]

@Radiant
I agree about the tactical part if he does not change his vote before the deadline.

[copper223]

@Toon
Why would you think it's more likely I am scum if Victor flips scum and more town if he flips town?

[copper223]

@Eektor
Can you explain your thought process more?

[copper223]

@Eektor
MonkeyMan576 - 4 (acryon, Formerfish, Elbirn, RadiantCowbells)
MonkeyMan576 - 3 (eektor, Cheetory6, Futan)

If you think Victor and I are town, only Boon, SiX and Toon haven't joined his wagon yet, how does this fit with your scumteam?

[copper223]

I like those reads a lot Boon, I'm having second thoughts on Monkey as well because this time around the wagon on him looks pretty town to me.

[copper223]

I think Victor is more likely to be scum but I will join a Monkey wagon if a compromise lynch is needed.

[copper223]

There's more happening in other games. This game is a bore so far.

This is such a VI comment to make.

@Futan
Remember the fact he is less active here could also mean the opposite of what you think, we can't really say...

[copper223]

Yes, despite his play I think he might be, especially since Elbirn and Former just peeled from my wagon to join his and I know mine is on town.

[copper223]

@Monkey
What's your take on the wagon movements?

[copper223]

Elbirn and formerfish strike me as the type of people that like to pressure vote and reaction vote, so it doesn't really bother me. I know I'm town and I'm not the best lynch today.

This is a possible deadline lynch, I can assure you this is not a reaction test, I'd like your updated reads.

[copper223]

I like those reads a lot Boon, I'm having second thoughts on Monkey as well because this time around the wagon on him looks pretty town to me.

What does this mean? You're saying that the people on his wagon (at the time that you made this post, they were Eektor, Cheetory, and Futan) you townread? And that lends his wagon more credibility?

Yes I have various degrees of townreads for those players so it did lend credibility to the wagon, unfortunately you just joined it.

[copper223]

@Elbirn
I do not think Monkey is likely scum, I already told you, although if as I think you are scum you are understandably not paying much attention to it, my best bet is he is a town VI, the reads he just gave also point at him being town because he just scumread 2 players not on his wagon at L-2, that doesn't look like scum to me.

I am however fallible and if a number of players whom I think are town are scumreading a player I will go back and re-read, maybe my townreads on those players need to be re-examined or maybe I was wrong reading Monkey as town.

In this case I still the most likely scenario is Monkey is a bad player so I can see townies scumreading him when he is town, and 2 out of {Elbirn, Former, Victor} opportunistically (stated intent to switch) switched to try and get it off of Victor.

[copper223]

That's L-1

so if you want to vote Victor remember to state intent first.

[copper223]

@Toon
So you were likely the busser on the Victor wagon, sweet.

@Cheetory
Toon also sponsored the idea the we are both scum by saying it's more likely that a scumflip of one means the other is likelier to be scum as well.

[copper223]

@Radiant
+1

@All
Toon placed Moneky at L-1, as a reaction for doing the obvious, with Victor not voting, that says a lot.

The way my wagon melted as soon as something else viable came up besides Victor, while some of us on the Victor wagon were considering switching, is also a pretty strong indicator that reads were not the deciding factir for some if these shifts.

[copper223]

So I'm a little confused by your reasoning, like not that you guys aren't clear but more in that I just need to process it. What I want to know is, and I'm sure you've already said this, but. Considering these recent developments. Will lynching victor give us more info than flipping monkey? Do you really think a vic scum flip clears ALL of those people?

I'd say the information gain is similar and decent in both cases, but I care more about who is more likely to be scum and just off of these wagon movements Victor is it.

I agree with Radiant about the list, I would also add Eektor to it though it's not flip related, it is also besides the point.

I wonder why

Elbirn town would like to know how many players a Victor scumflip would clear, why would that be a priority for him now in any way?

This looks a lot like you are calculating the odds of bussing for towncred vs sticking to the mislynch to me, man if I got you all D1 I'm such a boss

Didn't you say you would eat your hat if Victor flipped scum, why are you willing to vote him now?

@Eektor
I think you should join this wagon as well.

[copper223]

Victor Elbirn Toon. I've had the same team for a while now.

[copper223]

The players I haven't fully sorted out yet and who could also come into consideration for today before a flip solidifies my reads or shows me I'm derping are Former, SiX and to a lesser degree Acryon and Cheetory.

[copper223]

That is not what you asked, you asked:

if Victor were to flip scum, would ALL these people really be cleared

. Like who gives a fuck if you are town and you lynch scum D1 you open a bottle, your priorities don't make sense as town, but they make perfect sense for scum having to decide which alternative offers the best winning chances.

[copper223]

@Eektor
Monkey/Toon seems pretty far fetched, I agree.

[copper223]

@Eektor
Because scum don't want to have 3 players on the same wagon, that is a check magnet. I also think Toon's plan was to vote Monkey all along and to find an excuse to do so, go back and read his first Victor vote, he says he wants to lynch Monkey but since he doesn't want to put him at L-1 so early he will vote Victor in the mean time. He did nothing much until now where he switched back to his initial scumread with an extremely weak reason he fabricated himself, like is Monkey supposed not to join the counterwagon? The fact he needed to be told to do so if anything is town indicative because it doesn't look like he was trying really hard to save his skin.

I would also be willing to lynch Toon today btw.

[copper223]

After the last 2 pages I would lynch Toon over Victor, but both are fine by me.

[copper223]

He did try, for most of the day. Don't you think I'm onto something as you just sheeped 2/3 of my scumreads?

[copper223]

@Toon
Stating intent for the end of the day with your I will hammer tonight if Vic. is still alive, then after someone people come out of hiding to support another wagon you changed your mind? To me that is once again indicative of a teammate getting cheap town cred by saying he will hammer and let someone else, most likely the RC do it, but now that you can avoid the lynch you don't want to hammer, it's bad for you even if Vic. were to flip town because then this behavior would be more indicative of scum not wanting to hammer a known town, in any case I really want to lynch you.

@Elbirn
Most of what you said in the latter part of the day makes very little sense.

@All
Notice how Victor did not even mention Toon in his latest reads when the guy is supposed to be a scumread of his and he has been scummy as fuck lately.

@RC
SiX is getting replaced during the night phase, hammer please.

[copper223]

Why listen to that ? It's a pile of half truths and scummy shit. I can't believe an IC would post some of that.

It's a lynch that's likely to happen ? Awesome town reason. Well done. FFS

Orly, justify your town read of Victor please.

[copper223]

If Victor were to flip town btw I fully welcome an investigation, even a vig shot wouldn't be terrible because it would reveal that this was a tvt and I would have gotten a town lynched after all.

I still think it's very likely the guy will flip scum and only someone like Acryon who likes to think scum would do weird shit for the sake of it will continue to scumread me then, that doesn't really matter much because if Victor were to flip scum the odds are pretty high scum will kill me off anyway.

[copper223]

@Copper, do you think Elbirn is scummy at this point?
Victor's lack of mention of Toon does honestly kind of resonate with me, but at the same time I feel like Victor's general reaction to this wagon on him has struck me as pretty townish and I'm possibly being influenced by some dumb meta things that I shouldn't be letting influence me.
The lack of any effort in even trying to push Monkey as a counterwagon on his part just doesn't feel like something he would do as scum. I don't know. I just feel like he would be trying harder to stay alive right now.

He is trying pretty hard given the number of weird townreads popping up, I have rarely seen this kind of support for a guy at L-1 when he has done very little to earn it.

I think Elbirn is almost as scummy as Victor, but less scummy than both Victor and Toon.

[copper223]

You don't know how bad you are to make these statements, wait to see if your own reads were correct before making these statements. You are confirming you are town here?

[copper223]

I know his push on me is rubbish, so he is as bad as the players he is accusing if he is town.

[copper223]

@Victor
Lol fuck you.

[copper223]

Assuming Victor is not trolling I can see Acryon being scum, the difference between this game and the one where I was scum and he was town is he is much less confident about his pushes here, he was content to join the main wagons for the day (Copper and Victor) and scumread both of us, but when asked for his opinion on multiple topics he has come up with a null read.

Toon still looks really scummy and Elbirn slightly less so. Cheetory, Former and Futan all look pretty townie in this case.

[copper223]

@Monkey
I am sorry your town play really needs improving, but I don't like the atmosphere in the thread where everyone is just being a dick with you, like what is the guy going to learn from this? You all also ended up mislynching him after Formerfish pushed him to the ends of beyond D1 as VDA correctly pointed out in the dead thread so you are not exactly genuises yourselves.

@Cheetory
You had exactly the same problem I saw in Radiant you know? You played really well analyzing Copper vs VDA, sorry we got it wrong D1 btw but he really looked scummy to me and I guess I looked really scummy to him, what can you do, and D2 hinting at having something on Acryon, but after most of the town started to treat you as confirmed (and here the analogy with Radiant) you started posturing and telling them how bad they are instead of worrying about winning the game, that shit about being happy with a MM lynch because his play was crap if he is town is just terrible, you are justifying a mislynch in your eyes before it even happens so every analysis you will do after that is going to be super biased.

@Radiant
The problem with your play from how I saw it was not that your scumreads were wrong, that can happen, it was you did not provide the meat for why you were reading these people in said manner, so the rest of town had no clue about what you were thinking, you also have a super annyoing habit of telling the rest of us you had it figured out after the fact when it goes wrong, like after every mislynch you would say something along the lines of: oh I was just about to switch my vote or yes I pushed this because it's an infolynch regardless of so and so's alignment, I don't believe that's always the case and you shouldn't worry about getting it wrong and trying to justify yourself, just play your best and let the results speak for themselves.

@Eektor
Solid play, I dragged you on the first lynch so if anything blame me, unfortunately this game some townplayers looked really scummy so being on a mislynch is not as bad as you make it sound, I think the Boon/Pie bus was something nobody bothered much to analyize and it could have helped (but maybe that's just me having extra info) and you should have considered sleep as well to get in an extra check from Cheetory, but other than that protecting the IC and claiming at Mylo was fine.

@Acryon
Fuck you mate for shooting me and abandoning the game , you should have at least won it to make it up to me and preserve my winrate . Honestly if you read this really well played shooting Formerfish.

@Formerfish
Excellent play D1, the only slight scumvibe I got from you (excellent job masking the Monkey push behind policy, I don't know if you really believe policy is good because that came across really genuine), was when you said Copper has

lost

any sense of perspective (not sure of the exact word you used) when I FoSed you for the Victor support, becuase that implied you knew I was genuinly trying to begin with, a very minor thing though. Your play with the RB soft would have worked because Boon shot you during the night so you would have bene recruited, Acryon prolonged the agony for town but a well deserved win.

@Boon
Well played D1, I especially liked you saying you don't know how to read me, I was thinking about what you did with Flubber in our previous mafia game and how you tried to pocket him, but this time you did not stick to your townread at all costs so it was much harder to see you and Former were splitting on Copper/Vda and I thought your townread of me was genuine, dumb Copper I guess :p. You also pushed the right players to win the game. Personally I would not have bussed Pieguyn but despite Acryon's fanatasies (and his unfortunate small sample size of games played with me where I did actually bus because I had to) I almost never bus my scumpartners.

@Pieguyn
Made the best out of the Boon bus and managed to make some townie catch-ups, good job.

@Elbirn
Discussed in the dead thread, I disagree that you played so bad, we were at two ends of the town crashing into each other so we both got it wrong but at least you were one of the few who tried to make his positions clear and to analyze the game.

@Toon
You looked really scummy mate

@Futan
The real MVP this game, correct read on Victor and Copper, manages to get shot as VT by scum because they believe he is a PR, turns out the newest player was actually the best town player this game!

@VDA
No hard feelings from my side.

@Flames
Thanks for modding, please post setup relevant information in character 44 at the start of the game for dummies like me

[copper223]

@Eektor
I also got a townread on you from the start because your posts were inquisitive without forcing anything and you seemed to be openly giving genuine opinions on everything of note that was happening, if you can mimic your townstyle well as scum I don't want to face your scumgame

[copper223]

@Cheetory
I have and I have made the same mistake as you, I actually lost another game with monkey in it by getting mod removed without warning because town was driving me nuts and I started arguing and flaming with another town player who wanted to lynch a vengeful claim at mylo and was baiting me to shoot him after I died (and he was another claimed PR), obviously after I was removed Monkey managed to get himself lynched despite the whole scumteam wanting the other PR dead

The criticism is ment to try and help you improve and I am hard on you because you have shown this game that you are a good player, in fact it's kind of fair to say a similar argument can be made about me after I kept getting pressured day 1 by Acryon, Victor, Elbirn and later Former (the mod removal happened at the same time so I was pissed as fuck during that period of time is the only thing I can say for those over the top comments). I also had much less information to work with at the time and some of my townreads had merit to be fair.

I accept the critique from you, but that doesn't mean you don't deserve it as well .

[copper223]

Fair enough.

[copper223]

@Pie
I read the scum PT, impressive work there, how sucky that scum lost SiX and gained you...

[copper223]

I don't think this discussion is very productive because most players are either venting or just taking the critiques as a personal insults, flames is being a bit too harsh in my opinion as well.

Monkey, I think reaction testing Cheetory at mylo with a vote when you are one of the primarary lynch candidates is an overly risky strat, why not just FOS him next time and let him try to explain his position? If you looked back it was hard to picture Cheetory as scum, most of what he did with the claim was clearly town sided, like FOSing a player who actually did act during the night and then doing his best to make the rest of town accept his vig claim, he also explained why he lied and the logic made sense to me, you have to ask yourself why he would admit to have being lying there just to give another very likely town, Eektor, a pass. When Eektor did not hammer you, it should have been pretty clear to you he was town as well, instead you quibbled with him about the technical meaning of confirmed which looked very suspicious to someone not knowing your alignment.

More in general I have a hard time with you because I don't understand where most of your reads are coming from and why, this is the second game where I correctly peg you as town based on the wagons that build up on you and both times you called me scum for reasons I still don't understand, your Elbirn sheep because he seemed confident in his posting this game was really weird to me for instance.

@RC
You claimed to be a great player at the start and this game I did not see it, people are bound to be bitter about it but I don't think you are bad, just too self assured and not transparent enough with how you communicate, this is not ment to be insulting, if you disagree you may well be right but this is my take on how you cam improve your game.