Mini 1648: Mafia in the Noose Factory. (Game Over)

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Monkey

[Slandaar]

If you clowns really think it's a good idea to get someone to claim for no reason then lets just massclaim D1.

Blue starts.

[Slandaar]

I don't wanna mass claim.

I wanna force Zeb to claim.

Who is calling him scum?

Why are you trying to get a random player to claim for no actual reason?

Explain it to me.

[Slandaar]

Hey, guys, Tip seems like he knows what he's doing so maybe we should sheep him?

[Slandaar]

This is standard play for bbt.

I think it's just BBT trying something new.

This made me laugh.

Are they both right?

[Slandaar]

Good point Slandaar.

Thank you Ploben.

Maybe you guys are right about BBT - I've never played in a game with him before, or really had time to look at his meta. But I've looked back over the thread, and I'm having trouble finding a pro-town reason for his choice to justify his wagon rather than keep the wagon going to L-1 in order to succeed at his alleged goal. And while I acknowledge that it could be a reaction test, I a problem with that, too. Unless I'm misinterpreting a post, he never outright admits to reaction-testing, and he's had plenty of time to observe reactions since the post. It's not that I can't see this as a reaction test, I just don't find it any easier than seeing it as scum play. Maybe it is too obvious for an experienced scum player, I just can't bring myself to stop suspecting him entirely.

Also, hello, House! Don't expect me to go easy on you just because you scumclaimed in that last game.

I feel after receiving such a nice compliment from Ploben I should continue the compliment giving trend. Pony; You are playing scum really well especially for a newbie.

[Slandaar]

Yeah. They're pro town roles. They die together. I'm not

actually

claiming lovers. *wink*wink*

Only pro-town when one of them is scum.

Can someone who disagrees with the BBT wagon please explain why anything anyone has done so far is more suspicious than bad logic and blatant PR-hunting? I don't think meta is an acceptable excuse for behaviour which actively attempts to decrease town's chances of winning.

What I mean by bad logic: acting like it doesn't matter whether PRs are outed now or many days later, acting like wanting PRs outed at all isn't pro-scum.

I am disappointed you didn't respond to me

I shall respond to you though!

I don't think Zeb is likely to PR-claim all game

One has to ask themselves; Why was Pony thinking about if Zeb is a PR or not?

This subtle PR hunting is much scummier than being straight forward.

@BBT: Answer my question please it actually had a point to it.

[Slandaar]

@tip & @Slandaar

Can you share your reads at this point?

I tend to find when I post my reads I stick with them a lot more. I prefer not to post them fully yet although they are hinted at. I have 3 suspects and am confident in all of them.

[Slandaar]

177 - Why the unvote?

182 - Better to get an early claim than a late one. That should be obvious.

186 - PR fishing is definitely bad for town.

188 - What question?

189 - Well you're wrong on at least one of them.

194 - Ploben, why are you speaking to Slandaar as if he is town?

I think we're on the same page but why not share your information and help us solve this?

199 - Sure, if it was another naked vote with no explanation.

PEdit - Haha, Kaboose. Great pen from Lovren

Where in all of these posts is your answer to my question?

If you don't understand; I want to know if you think what they said makes sense as their perspectives.

[Slandaar]

Maybe you guys are right about BBT - I've never played in a game with him before, or really had time to look at his meta. But I've looked back over the thread, and I'm having trouble finding a pro-town reason for his choice to justify his wagon rather than keep the wagon going to L-1 in order to succeed at his alleged goal. And while I acknowledge that it could be a reaction test, I a problem with that, too. Unless I'm misinterpreting a post, he never outright admits to reaction-testing, and he's had plenty of time to observe reactions since the post. It's not that I can't see this as a reaction test, I just don't find it any easier than seeing it as scum play. Maybe it is too obvious for an experienced scum player, I just can't bring myself to stop suspecting him entirely.

Also, hello, House! Don't expect me to go easy on you just because you scumclaimed in that last game.

Waffle waffle waffle waffle waffle.

131 - This post feels town. I like it.

Can someone who disagrees with the BBT wagon please explain why anything anyone has done so far is more suspicious than bad logic and blatant PR-hunting? I don't think meta is an acceptable excuse for behaviour which actively attempts to decrease town's chances of winning.

What I mean by bad logic: acting like it doesn't matter whether PRs are outed now or many days later, acting like wanting PRs outed at all isn't pro-scum.

Weird post after making 131

[Slandaar]

I'm curious here. You're saying when you post them you're more apt to ride those reads until the end. You're saying you have 3 suspects you're confident in. But you don't want to post them? Why not? I think we're on the same page but why not share your information and help us solve this?

I do better when I play at a leisurely speed.

My vote on monkey was/is quite serious.

[Slandaar]

A for Effort from tip. I like the chart for us socially challenged players.

[Slandaar]

Tip doesn't seem useless to me.

[Slandaar]

OK I will be serious from now on.

No more joking around.

[Slandaar]

Vote: Always Mafia

I mean, he is always mafia.

This post is more likely from scum because.
1. It reads slightly awkward the grammar is not correct.
2. He then does not post anything productive to help move the game along until events have occured:

Hammering this early is really a bad idea.

Lets them assess what others did:
BBT voted and then came back.
Pisskop voted and then came back.
Boon voted and then... came back.
Ploben voted and came back a bit later.
Zeb voted and came back.
Always Mafia voted in a sort of serious way which is actually not as bad as Monkey.
Luca same as above.
Random Midget... voted and came back briefly!...
Tip does stuff <-- Note this. He also correctly identifies Monkey as the best vote by far.
Pony came in late and posted some nonsense which I may break down at some point.

I missed a couple but basically the point is:
Monkey made his RVS vote then didn't do anything until action had happened. This is like scum play by the book. Make the vote then let everyone accuse each other and bam.

I don't feel like going over the rest of Monkeys posts. Needless to say they are not good.

Engage sheep mode townies.

[Slandaar]

Slandaar: You can say "hey, that's weird and scummy, lynch her" all game without actually explaining yourself, and I won't bother to address your accusations. Your one point does stand, though - I suppose that mention of Zeb probably not roleclaiming all game could be interpreted as subtle PR-hunting, although it was intended as a caution against anyone who believed him later in the game. However, the sheer wooliness of the rest of your case leads me to believe that it's fake, for whatever reason.

Even if it was fake my one 'valid' point is stronger than your entire case on Blue.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Zebulin
I don't like the fact that he's trying to bring up someone else's meta this early in the game. Possible reasons why:
a) He actually, genuinely wants to warn us that he thinks Boonskiies is completely insane as VT, and the town is better off if he's lynched, regardless of alignment. Possible but seems unlikely when Boonskiies hasn't done anything to warrant the meta-warning yet.

A forewarning is not a bad thing. I don't see what the relevance is of Boon not doing anything to warrant the warning?

If you feel a warning is required you pre-warn. If you are driving down a road you want the signs to warn you about things before you get to them not after you have gone past them... I mean common sense.

b) Zebulin is scum and wishes to encourage a lynch of Boonskiies, who he knows is town.
c) They're both scum and he was trying to provide an excuse for any later mistakes by Boon.
d) I'm overanalyzing random chatter from this stage of the game.
All of these are possible. Personally, I suspect Zebulin because he seems outright manipulative already - he's trying to affect how we look at Boonskiies when we've barely even started.

Also, a point to do with your post that confused me, Zeb: wouldn't tunneling him because you think he's anti-town produce the same negative result as it did in that previous game, since a town-flip by him would inevitably implicate you? If you're both town again, that's two mislynches.

Which means if we include common sense into our post we have a random choice between a, b, c and d making the entire post pointless.

This does not cover how the thought process which is required to make this post is much more likely from scum. Townies will mostly just go 'I think that Zeb is trying to manipulate us' not explain in every minute detail all possible options it's very defensive in a way as it is pre-explaining every angle.

[Slandaar]

@Boon: You are agreeing that you're insane and we should lynch you for saying scummy things?

Zeb. Is this a good honest townie scumhunting?

[Slandaar]

Slanndar is being really nitpicky and using the "throwing crap and see what sticks" scum hunting method, which is not really hunting.

I would argue I have not been making many accusations I have made few and stuck with them. The opposite to what you are saying.

Basically he is saying I am being lazy for not crap-posting day 1 like a lot of people do, then he admits he is lazier than me.

Crap posting as you call it is required otherwise everyone makes a random vote and nothing happens.

How does the game progress from a town perspective when everyone does as you did?

[Slandaar]

Can someone reiterate the case against ploben, please? I've looked back over the thread and I'm having trouble understanding why he's being wagonned. I assume I'm missing something. Until then:
UNVOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
Because I've read over the thread again, I think he's refuted my case fairly and without slips, and I have no further problems with what he's posting. Will read over the thread focusing more on individuals besides BBT and ploben later today, when I have more time.

What are your thoughts on the Midget wagon?

[Slandaar]

I would argue I have not been making many accusations I have made few and stuck with them. The opposite to what you are saying.

That doesn't make them quality arguments.

Yes, true, making few accusations and sticking with them doesn't make them good accusations. The quality of the arguments is what makes them a good accusation.

Crap posting as you call it is required otherwise everyone makes a random vote and nothing happens.

How does the game progress from a town perspective when everyone does as you did?

It's also an easy way for scum to get town lynched, by posting fluff and no one expects anyone to call them out. Pointing out the quality posts from the fluff, however few they may be, is the best way to go day 1.

You missed the point. In RVS you all come in and vote someone because they have an amusing avatar. 13 players do this. Because all 13 decide not to post anything which isn't 'fluff' how does the game progress?

Thus we are concluding fluff posting in RVS is productive and in fact pro-town. Not participating is the opposite of this. It's a judgement call on what is and isn't town fluff there is a too much fluff stage etc etc.

Your RVS vote had no real intention behind it to do anything other than be an RVS vote. You then only show up again when action has happened. Stay out of the limelight stay out of the firing line eh?

[Slandaar]

Whole thing's a mess in my opinion. I can't tell if randomidget was actually scared or just sheeping House, and I have doubts about whether tip is town, which complicates things. Don't like that randomidget attempts to justify lurking. Want to look over tip's posts again and hear more about why ploben's wagon exists. May have forgotten a point in this post, had a longer post typed up but then lost internet when I was posting it and when my internet came back, the text was gone; posting by memory.

What about you? What do you think of it?

Yeah that's unfortunate you forgot your thoughts due to the internet cutting out.

I tell you what;
I am going to copy your read on Midget. So let me know my current read please

[Slandaar]

BBT when you return I seriously want an answer to this:

This is standard play for bbt.

I think it's just BBT trying something new.

This made me laugh.

Are they both right?

[Slandaar]

Pony I know you are scum already, yes, I made that quite clear which is why you will get that impression.

If I am not looking to expand my case on you why did I ask you about Midget?

Why is it all our interactions are me engaging on you if I am not scumhunting?

Where exactly did I say I have dropped an argument I made?

[Slandaar]

You could also try explaining why I should be voting you not Monkey when I have made it very clear I think you are both scum.

[Slandaar]

Slandaar: No, you're not. The only way you could absolutely know my alignment would be if you were scum. Town on Day 1 is never this certain on a read, especially with so little evidence.

Well that's not true. I know people are scum very often on D1 as both alignments.

You are very certain in your stance which is strange considering how little you have actually played.

I didn't say you weren't looking to expand your case, I said you weren't looking for legitimate scumtells. There's a difference.

Expand case by adding legitimate scumtells. Not really a difference. You avoided the point though.

Please reiterate your question, I find it confusing. What do you mean, you engaging on me if you're not scumhunting? Maybe I'm being dense, but I'd appreciate it if you could reword that. As it is, I can't answer it.

Eh not really a question. I am the proactive you are the reactive.

Wait, you're saying you didn't drop your arguments in #224? Even after #337 where you admitted that they were "fake"? Please clarify: did you drop them as you implied, or not?

I didn't say they were fake.

I didn't imply I dropped them.

[Slandaar]

Even if it was fake my one 'valid' point is stronger than your entire case on Blue.

Clearly is talking hypothetically Pony.

If you actually believed this was me admitting I had made arguments up you probably should have made a bigger fuss about it. Don't you think?

[Slandaar]

I don't have time to detail it but basically anyone who wants to can see Pony is scum by viewing her first post and it's timing then viewing her second post and it's timing. Note the lack of participation during what was a critical part of the day and how she moves vote in the sweet spot for scum. Right as Zeb wagon fails and Blue wagon looks viable.

[Slandaar]

Tipsie did you OMGUS poor midget?

[Slandaar]

Ploben is town I think.

@Blue why is it you cannot answer my one very simple question?

@Pony please can you let me know my read on midget.

[Slandaar]

Really?

People think Tip is scum out of tip/midget?

...

VOTE: Midget

[Slandaar]

I agree with Zeb.

Still, everyone vote Midget.

[Slandaar]

Luca actually being pro-town...

Tip: Midget is scum.
Midget: nu uh vote Tip!!!
Tip: vote midget
Midget: OMGUS! scum!
Tip: ...

Lynch midget and be happy.

[Slandaar]

Or we could lynch Ploben because he has been the scummiest player by far?

Don't think he is.

One could make a strong case that he is in fact... town.

1. Forgetting # of players.
2. Complete recklessness and uncaring of how he is perceived.

You have already determined I am not his buddy even if he was scum so I suggest you take the time to think about it some more and while you do that vote Midget who is actually scum.

[Slandaar]

My suspicion of your alignment would normally make me doubt your opinion,

This sort of stuff is really suspicious.

[Slandaar]

alternatively we can peg down randomidget, but whatever.

VOTE: tip
I'm following house

Interesting how tip goes hsrd after the people who vote him. Seems panicky.

See 136 - this post is just not based on facts. He was going 'hard' on midget before hand and continued in this vain the vote was not the instigation.

i wish to shed light on how, instead, it is - pretty transparently - a shitty retaliatory tunnel to being finger of suspicion-ed by myself

I voted you first.

It's like he thinks voting first means something.

He is completely ignoring the point in that post. The lack of thought by midget is very clear. He is scum.

[Slandaar]

Lynching tip would be a travesty.

He is the towniest guy in the game bar me

[Slandaar]

At this point I think tip's the scummiest player based on his response to the wagon on him, though that read is influenced by tip calling me an idiot. I don't like being called an idiot.

ploben's vote looks insanely oppertunistic. Then again, a vote on tip at that point in the game is more oppertunistic than a vote on randomidget, assuming tip and ploben aren't on the same team. If tip flips scum (if he's lynched), then ploben's probably scum also, as trying to counterwagon at this point in the game off tip when tip is scum is extremely scummy.

BBT's looking more town due to his extreme activity. I don't think scum would be that active, even if they had the time.

Could someone recap the case on midget?

Look Zeb.

Tip is just insanely jealous of your mental capacities so to make him feel better he lashed out at you and called you an idiot. Don't allow Tip's jealously of your greatness to cloud your judgement. Vote Midget.

[Slandaar]

Guys, please, lynch midget.

[Slandaar]

@slandaar people tend to pay more attention as scum because it is rarer. Yoyr points point to me being pazy rsther thsn scum, and house is clearly posting less.

People pay more attention as the alignment they prefer.

But that is slightly besides the point, you wish to argue that you are just lazy town?

Well, OK, lazytownmidget why is it you have not unvoted or reassessed the situation after I pointed out the issues with your arguments? because you are lazy and don't care who is lynched? nah. It's because you are not lazytownmidget. Even lazy town have an inclination to genuinely try to figure out players alignments and when they don't they admit it.

[Slandaar]

We have 17 hours. You have had your fun messing about now everyone vote Midget.

Does anyone think he is town? anybody? then lynch.

[Slandaar]

I would very much appreciate it if you voted Midget with me today house. I like your kaboose case somewhat but need to think about things properly.

[Slandaar]

12 hours...

Everyone please just vote midget.

[Slandaar]

630 - I'm sorry Slandaar, none of those are alignment indicative.

Of course they are.

If you are scum you know there are 3 scum and thus 9p game is not on your mind where town no such reminder occurs.

If you are scum your objective is based somewhat on survival thus most scum will not in fact play in such a manner while town do not have a win condition based on survival so they can be more reckless. I assume you can explain why they are not?

[Slandaar]

Then Slandaar. When I pressed Ploben on his town-read on Slandaar he said it was 'very, very, slightly town'. Obviously town enough for Ploben to use him as a justification for joining a wagon.

Ploben, why is Tip suddenly town now? He certainly wasn't town when you put him at L-1.

Wrong order of events. He did that after you asked his read a good 200 posts prior which changes things significantly.

You are very badly misrepresenting the situation.

[Slandaar]

You can help achieve that goal by voting Midget Boonsie.

[Slandaar]

I still say we lynch tip.
Also slandaar no one likes a tunneler.

No-one likes you?

I am very sorry to hear that midget.