Mini 1669 - Pictures for Sad Children Mafia - COMPLETED

[Wanderer-nl]

Hiya, a lot of familiar names inthere!

No RVS?

VOTE: Draynth

[Wanderer-nl]

Hi Domo!

Hi to Bella, BBT, Not_Mafia, Flubber and anyone else I know who I forgot to mention.

So Rev (aka Domo) you town this game so we can work together and rid the town of scum?

Upon second read I'm not liking this bolded part so much. Feels to me like she's trying to buddy.

Not sure why Reverend makes a big deal out of this and then posts a RVS-vote.

Skold seems to always want RVS to last a little while so that doesn't worry me. I hope I get to see him scumhunting this game.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Skold, why wait for BBT specifically?

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: draynth i dislike rvs more each time I play. We have enough to start to move on now. Wanderer, can prolonging rvs be a scum tell for someone and not someone else?

Kaboose, surely the only way someone caN kno about a town response is if the person asking is scum? Not sure what you are getting at here.

Rev sseems overly pumped already.

Thanks for asking. I remembered reading in an older towngame of Skold that he wanted to RVS. I checked and seems my memory has failed me. Other games are on-going so will leave those out.
But that does mean I can say this now: Hypothetically, if a player makes a point of telling people to keep RVS going for a while as either allignment, it does become a null-tell.

[Wanderer-nl]

So I went back into NM and MM because of dierfire's post, because I couldn't really make much of the discussion between thse two myself.
44 to me looks like MM is responding to something that's not in this thread.
45 feels like a 'dude, you're posting in the wrong thread, watch it'
Then a lot of back and forth goes on, but I don't really see them answering each others questions.
82 felt entirely different from the attitude during the other discussion, and with 83 kind of looks coachy. Which is weird really because scum have daytalk so they don't need to coach.
But then in 84 MM just steps away from the discussion and in 85 NM calls MM town. It's like they're reverse-distancing.
90 I don't agree with NM on MM reconsidering his read, it just feels like he dropped it.
92 Well ofcourse you have to stop pushing your scumbuddy.

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: MonkeyMan

I actually interpreted as MM accusing NM of making alurker-vote, instead of a vote on a lurker but apparently I was wrong (137) and I don't like MM's explanation. What exactly could he have taken litteral to come to that conclusion?

[Wanderer-nl]

@BBT (IRT 148): It's probably 'too good to be true' but honestly, I haven't seen anything good enough yet to make me think otherwise. Maybe they tried to make the best of a PT-slip and tried to make at least one of them look obvtown? 151 But he had every reason when they're both scum.
I also kind of feel like you are dismissing a lot of what other people are sharing/reading and try to push your opinion.

Vote: Dierfire

He's just throwing shit and seeing what sticks. None of what he says makes any sense whatsoever.

Can you explain me what took you so long to get to that conclusion?

@Draynth (IRT 181): have you read the discussion about NM/MM yet?

@NM: How come you haven't responded at all to anything said about the theory around you and MM?

About Reverend; I don't scumread him but seeing a lot of people do I am going to dig into his iso to find out what others are seeing. But this will have to wait as I desperately need a shower right now because I just got home from an intense (and satisfying) training and I'm smelly.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm afraid I'm tunnelling but I'm still not liking MM and NM at all.
NM still hasn't responded at all to anything about the maybe-PT-slip. MM's responses haven't satisfied me so far.

@BBT: maybe MM needed time to make up an excuse? I don't really buy it, it was page 1, he saw the mod-posts at least before he saw NM's post when he opened the page. How does one forget it was that early? It's freaking post #9.
Maybe you can respond to my points in 145? If it doesn't change your reads, it might be able to help me move on.

I also just realized I haven't said what I found when going into Rev's iso. Nothing really stood out to me. It was weird he went back to RVS after his point on farside, but on the other hand I can understand his reasoning for that. I would have liked it better if he just refrained from voting at all at that point. Other than that, everything looks rather okay for me. Slight townlean.

I'm a little claustrofobic so I'm going to read iso's to try and get out of the tunnel on MM/NM.
Some impressions before doing that (Now this is just of the top of my head without reading back so it's not too accurate yet):
MM and NM can both still be scum to me.
Not really liking kaboose on bella much, but it concerns me more that Skold is following this while not having a clear read on kaboose. Especially because he can use the exact same argument on dierfire (which would even make more sense because he's the one that brought it up) so why would he pick Bella?
I'm leaning town on BBT, Bella, dierfire and Draynth, and Rev also doesn't look bad as I already mentioned.
I'm null on farside and flubber, for farside mostly because I don't really remember her posts and flubber hasn't done much yet.

[Wanderer-nl]

@NM: I'm going to guess you're talking about my point on your 45. It's a hidden warning that town wasn't supposed to see as warning.

I should add, with MM now saying (late though!) he's in so many other games, this 45 could make sense but then again, MM could have told NM about that before the game started and NM used that to cover up the slip. I'm stuck in a tunnel, I keep seeing scummotivation with both of them.

[Wanderer-nl]

Posts 201 and 228 don't feel right to me. It's how scum would work in my opinion. Townreads are just as, if not more, valuable than scumreads.
In 31 he turns 'bothered' to 'worried' and they don't quite mean the same. Now this I could actually see as a language-error, but so far Kaboose seems to have a good understanding of the English language so that seems unlikely.

I have looked at farside as well, and I'm not sure how to feel about her actually. I still feel she was buddying (see my 29) and I guess Rev just didn't respond in a way farside expected and latched onto that. 40 looks like farside is on Rev more for policy than an actual scumread there. Hasn't really done much but apparently had a bad day so lets see how she catches up.

I'd sooner join a Kaboose-lynch than a farside-lynch right now.

UNVOTE:
Still feel uneasy about monkey but I'm leaving this tunnel. Want to see more from all 3 I mentioned here so I can make up my mind.

Doing more iso's later, taking a break now.

PEdit:
203 confused me at first, I can see Skold's point but I don't know where he gets the apologizing-part from. Skold could also do more, pretty much still null on him.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh look at that I got top (which stands for top of page sigh) and BBT I'm more of a cheese-person than a cookie (or sweets) person, a nice piece of creamy brie would do the trick.
All jokes aside, I think I was already clear on being interested in voting for Kaboose when I made my previous post. And I just realized why you want to do this. I'm in.
VOTE: Kaboose

[Wanderer-nl]

With these last posts from farside I'm more townleaning on her.
I'm interested to see how Kaboose is going to respond to farside, but his vote there isn't the only thing that worries me so I'd like him to address that too (250) if he wants me to unvote.

[Wanderer-nl]

Ehm farside, Rev is voting you, not Kaboose. So Kaboose is still at L-2.

[Wanderer-nl]

unvote

Wish I could explain how I interpret 'bothered' and 'worried' but it's hard to do from Dutch. I'll try to give examples in relation to mafia:
- I worry this townread might be scum.
- It bothers me that this person is voting outside the bandwagon.
Where I see 'worry' as caring for something and 'bothered' as being pinged by something. This might not make any sense. I'm not English, I'm Dutch. I'm also autistic so that can also play a part in my communication.

Well then, Kaboose, please continue scumhunting. How would you feel about, lets say, a Monkey-wagon?

[Wanderer-nl]

This goes first:

I don't like being told that I should be voting for a instead of b. I get paranoid about people's motives when that happens.

This is not allignment indicative to Rev for me (as in: it doesn't change my read), but I completely agree with this.

@BBT: I was typing that I felt Kaboose had given sufficient response to my scumthoughts on him. But I completely forgot about his farside-vote, wtf brain.. He still hasn't said anything about farside's response to that. I actually thought you wanted to vote for a claim and then see the reactions but now it doesn't look like that.
Anyway, there's a good chance I'll be revoting Kaboose but he can have a couple of hours to do something else than defending himself.

@Kaboose: You can read it in the gamethread. Monkey's post didn't look like it was posted for a PT, it looked like it was a response to something that was discussed in a PT but not yet in the main thread. This discussion has been had, bring new points to the game please. Anyone can claim town, so show me you are indeed town.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'd call it annoyed town more than emotional.

Yet you still haven't done anything to show you're town. You had your couple of hours to do scumhunting instead of defending yourself. You

still

didn't do anything with your farside-read/vote after she responded to that. Right now you are vote-parking.

It's late and I'm tired because I got home an hour ago from a rollerskating disco and I've been skating pretty much all night and drinking wine and I'm just not sure if it's a good idea to place a vote right now.

@Dierfire: About Rev; I'll link to some posts I liked later, right now I just don't have the energy to do so. And about Kaboose; when I unvoted I was back on null but later I remembered the farside-thing and I went back to scumleaning on him. Figured I might as well give him a chance to scumhunt while I was out now that my vote was off anyway. I'm now scumreading Kaboose and plan to vote after I slept.

@Rev: how is your current read on Kaboose? Do you believe his claim? And why (not)? (I saw 262, I just want you to elaborate)

[Wanderer-nl]

6 I'd like to think scum wouldn't hint to scum (even though scum does it more often apparently) during RVS. So I never really minded this.
16 Now that I know Rev a little better (can't elaborate because of ongoing*, sorry) this post doesn't mean too much, but it felt a little townish to me before.
21 is where I start getting annoyed at how Rev is handling that question/first post from farside. Why is it so hard to just say: ye I'm town we're gonna catch scum this game?
23 is where Rev falls back to RVS and in 32 he explains he doesn't want to dominate the discussion. I felt this was considerate at first, but like I said in an earlier post; he could have just backed off from farside, he didn't need to put an RVS vote.
75 is where Rev explains why farside pinged and in 77 remembers he still has an RVS vote out and changes it to farside. At that point I didn't mind Rev's vote because farside's first post felt like she was buddying Rev.
86 and 93 felt town to me.
110 I think his thought on farside was a little farfetched here, but at the time I can get his Draynth-read. In 165 Rev explains a little more how he feels about farside missing questions. I don't really know what to think here but the only reasons Rev is suspecting farside are her first post and the case he makes in 110 and expands on in 165.
170 A post by Kaboose convinces Rev that farside is town and Kaboose is scum. This looked town to me until he revotes farside later.
209 felt town to me.
227 is a response to nm calling the scumteam. I didn't dislike Rev's post because I agreed it looked like nm randomly put 3 names together and didn't actually read carefully to come to an opinion like that.
237 Rev circled back to farside, and I can get into that actually. Farside hadn't done much up until that point so I had my doubts about her myself.
262 Rev doesn't think Kaboose's claim was convincing, doesn't do anything with that though.
310 You know what I don't get Rev? In an earlier post you were convinced farside was town because Kaboose jumped on her and later you think they're scumbuddies because farside isn't responding to Kaboose at all, so how is your scumread on farside stronger than on Kaboose?
311, 314, 316, 317 and 319 I agree with these, but they're not allignment indicative.
And that was all.

Farside starts to look town to me from 289, and I really liked her 345, because she notices Rev and Monkey haven't really interacted. But then she ends it with 'Am I going crazy' which to me feels sort of apologetic. She doesn't like how Rev is avoinding the wagon on a scumread of his, but farside has a scumread on Kaboose to but decides to vote Monkey instead. So she's kinda doing the same thing but it's scummy on Rev but not on her?

I really don't know what to think right now. I guess right now I'm most happy with a Kaboose lynch, but I could also go for Monkey. I'm now null on Rev and farside, I'm hoping a flip will tell me more about them.

Spoiler: PEdit:

@Dierfire: Hehe, really? Roller derby (my club organized the disco) comes from the US and is booming right now in Europe.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh yeah I was planning to revote when I woke up fresh and all but then forgot.
VOTE: Kaboose

[Wanderer-nl]

Rev, I feel ignored. You didn't answer my questions on Kaboose.

[Wanderer-nl]

Eh we shoud do this together, NM. You're not making sense to me with wanting to have the hammer. And I played a game with a hammerhappy player and he was scum. So now explain to me why I shouldn't think you're scum for it.

I feel the Kaboose-bandwagon has resistance (seemed to pick up on thursday but stalled shortly after), and for me that means there's a good chance we caught scum here. There is daytalk so scum have the chance to discuss their strategy and help each other out when a scum is in trouble. Now Kaboose might look like easy misslynch, I think currently that can be said about more players, Rev included. A CW on Rev might actually work, and if not; nothing lost because Kaboose was about to die anyway and scum might as well try.
It's farfetched but I get paranoid easily so here are my thoughts. For my read on Kaboose to change I'd like more from him than a stand-alone townlooking post.

[Wanderer-nl]

Wow. Seriously. Not even is it in the rules, but I have actually accused NM and Monkey of a PT-slip because of daytalk. But I do think scum would check to see whether they're talking about the correct game. Difficult.

@Bella, I don't know. I was sharing my thoughts but I'm still null on Rev. What do you mean by the wagon looks more town? I think I was pretty clear that I thought Kaboose was scum because of the resistance, so I'm thinking you mean town is voting for Kaboose. To give you an answer I'd have to reread the reasons for voting for Kaboose. I'll do that later because I have a headache from hitting my head pretty hard this morning.

[Wanderer-nl]

I've looked at the Kaboose-wagon.
Voting: Bella, BBT, Draynth, Monkey and me.

Bella

Reason to vote: reads/reasons for voting seem forced.
My read of Bella: Bella doesn't stand out much to me. She declared me town, and this happened to me before and both times the person saying it was town. So I'm inclined to believe Bella is town for this, also because scum will try to not have definite townreads, especially day 1, in my opinion.
I didn't like she first gave points to NM for declaring intent to hammer while Kaboose was at L-2, but when others are commenting on NM's hammerlove Bella thinks it's odd too. It's a little thing and I like Bella's other posts so I'll have her as a slight townread right now.

BBT

Reason to vote: Kaboose voted farside for a slight lie while thinking her iso is pretty solid otherwise.
My read of BBT: I didn't much like how he only skimmed the game at first and joined a bandwagon without much consideration. It doesn't bother me though because I don't think scum would enter the game like that. BBT has been aggressively scumhunting so far, it looks like that to me at least. I think BBT is town.

Draynth

Reason to vote: It was weird for me, he first sorta kinda defends Kaboose but then votes anyway as he realises he's still RVS'ing (244) and thinks this is the scummiest case so far.
My read of Draynth: Besides his reason to vote, nothing is really pinging me on Draynth. Even though he sheeped hard, he seems to be understanding (and agreeing with) the reasons for lynching Kaboose. He's also engaging with several people and I think his thoughts are clear. I'ma put him down as a townread between slight and sure.

Monkey

Reason to vote: Believes BBT and Kaboose looks like scum.
My read of Monkey: I was very suspicious of him early game and it was hard to adjust my read on him. I just reread 44 and I'm an idiot, I suddenly understand where he's coming from. What I don't really get is what happened to Monkeys scumread on BBT. He voted BBT earlier, then jumped to Dierfire (which felt weird to me because some time had passed already since Dierfire's accusation, so it didn't feel very genuine to me) and after Dierfire he sheeps BBT. But he doesn't mention BBT in between and doesn't engage with him, so what changed? He's posting regularly, posting his thoughts, but not in an elaborate way, and at times he gets defensive. The bolded FoS on Rev felt weird to me, and thinking about if scum is trying to get attention off the Kaboose-wagon, Monkeys FoS fits. Scumlean to me.

Wanderer

Reason to vote: Kaboose scumhunts the same way scum would build a case on town. I joined the bandwagon to get to a claim and see how others reacted to that (I didn't explain it in my original vote-post obviously) Also the fact that Kaboose never responded to farside's explanation after Kaboose's accusation didn't sit right with me. And there was also a language-thing that turned out to be a difference of interpretation.
My read of Wanderer: I'm actually mod-confirmed to myself^^ (yesyes, we all are, we all got role-pms, just smile (or roll eyes) and move on)

Conclusion

As I said before the bandwagon feels like it's getting resistance, but because it was weekend I don't want to be too definite in this thought. I'd think scum would try to make cases on other townies trying to get a counterwagon going and there seem to be 2; on Rev and on Monkey (3 votes each) I'm still pretty convinced Kaboose is scum. I'm going to look into the CW's next.

An additional thought:
Reverend had his vote on Kaboose for a short while as well after Kaboose voted farside. That was a reason for Rev to think farside was actually town. I'll reference you to my 360 for my thoughts on Reverend. I realize this was posted quite some time ago, and I haven't responded to Rev's 429 yet (he answer some questions I asked, among other things) and Rev's iso grew twice as large since I made that post, so need to take another look at Rev but he's on a CW so that'll happen when I inspect those.

And another:
Not-Mafia to me looks like he is trying to prevent a claim by declaring intent to hammer at L-2, and he also said he'd probably hammer pending a claim. That prevents any reads of reactions to that claim and that's scummy in my opinion.
Kaboose is basically at L-1 with this intent to hammer, so I'd like him to claim now.

PEdit: Kaboose posted while I wrote this, gonna go ahead and post this and then read his post.

[Wanderer-nl]

Okay, I'm actually confused now and need to think.
My 492, what if scum is trying this with a buddy? NM looks pretty scummy for wanting to hammer before a claim. If Kaboose busses him and one of them gets lynched and flips scum, the other gains towncred for it.
The lack of vote in Kaboose's 510 is concerning me a little, because it makes it look like Kaboose is waiting for votes to drop on NM before voting there himself. But then again, if Kaboose had voted I might have accused him of fixing a new CW.

@Kaboose: it looks like you have a pretty decent scumread on NM but you haven't changed your vote. What makes you think Rev deserves your vote more than NM?

[Wanderer-nl]

Because I'm happy with my Rev vote.

Yes but why?

[Wanderer-nl]

unvote

I'm here, I'm not ready for hammer yet. I'll revote later. Kaboose, talk more. I think it's really strange you have NM/Monkey in both town and scum and can't make up your mind who of the 2 is scum. While you have a really good reason to think NM is scum. Are you defending him?

[Wanderer-nl]

?? did you just say your scum-mates would bus you???

Where did you read that?

[Wanderer-nl]

You know Kaboose, you're sounding townish right now with your thoughts on why scum would do certain things and stuff like that, but your scumreads are very superficial and so are your townreads. If you're really town, you shouldn't care too much about getting lynched at the end of the day, but putting your thoughts out here and engaging with other players to further determine your reads. How people responded to you can tell us a lot after you flip, even when it's town.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Dierfire: did you miss where NM declared intent to hammer while Kaboose was at L-2? How do you feel about that?

@The people voting Kaboose: any comment on his claim? People voting elsewhere (or not at all) are welcome to respond too by the way.

@Kaboose: you say that out of Monkey and NM 1 is scum and the other town. Then you say that if you controlled the lynch, you'd lynch NM. How is that not a stronger scumread on NM than on Monkey? And what do you think about NM not wanting to hammer anymore?

[Wanderer-nl]

MY desire to hammer kaboose has faded

Other than the fact that Kaboose is no longer at L-1, why would this be?

His "exit post" and how he handled being near-lynch looked town and he's someone I'd expect to claim. PR

You didn't look too interested in a claim earlier (402) so this response feels out of character to me. I agree with Dierfire's 563 about you backing off. You showed intent to hammer, you didn't show intent to hear out a claim or any reactions to that, and that's the part that makes your intent to hammer and now retract it, look bad.
Who do you think is scum now that your read on Kaboose has changed?

I just remembered I said I'd look into the other bandwagons. Don't have much time left to do that now so will save it for when I get back from work (which will be around 2am so I hope I'm not too tired/drunk)

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm saving myself the effort of posting the intent I know I will, and yes I will probably hammer pending his claim. Why does that make me scum?

[Wanderer-nl]

Yeah hammer pending claim means he won't wait for your claim, at least if I get the language right which I'm pretty sure I am.

[Wanderer-nl]

This whole thing between Kazoosand NM feels fishy to me. Posting ffrom mobile which I hate doing but am at work now

[Wanderer-nl]

Hey rev how do you feel about nms reactions to Kaboose?

[Wanderer-nl]

I might hammer but still at work and I want to read back on a couple of things to make sure.

[Wanderer-nl]

Ok go ahead and decide. I'm not hammering while on mobile but I see myself hammer both.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh pffffffffffff horrible play as either alignment.

[Wanderer-nl]

You get out. You're the one that quit

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: NM[/vote
Because I said yesterday several times NM was not going to wait for a claim and then much later Kaboose gave me his interpretation, and then NM says Kaboose is correct. Why the hell did he not correct me sooner?

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: NM
ebwop

[Wanderer-nl]

Rev, you are spending way too much time on explaining/defending yourself, and not enough time scumhunting. I'm starting to think farside is right about you. Also, she already posted she was thinking BBT was scum before the updates, so if the 2nd kill comes from a SK, then gj to him for making farside look bad, unless farside chose to go the too-obvious-to-be-true route.
Need to think about this stuff a little more.

[Wanderer-nl]

I read both your iso's and I included day 1 in what I said. You both keep arguing with each other and having each other as scum reads on and off and this has been going on since rvs. I think it's pretty obvious farside is scumreading you even though it's a between-the-lines thing, if I'm wrong then farside can correct me.
Also, see 511 why would I assume Draynth was killed by a vig?

PEdit: I don't really think farside would be that stupid though. Do you?

Rev, you know, I've seen you pick out something that someone did that made them look suspicious (like the they town thing from Kaboose) and then you press on it like this has to be the best evidence ever found in the history of evidence that someone is scum. And now you're doing it with that tell farside supposedly made. And then you don't go back to find the posts that can make your case stronger, which tells me you're lazy here as well.

How do you feel about my NM-vote?

[Wanderer-nl]

It's more the going after farside with something specific rather than the easy "scum is on my wagon" vote. The way you pulled out something you'd done as scum looks like you're genuinely looking for scum thought processes.

Yeah I'm considering this, but I can see Rev doing this as scum so not sure on that one yet.

[Wanderer-nl]

The silence is deafening..

[Wanderer-nl]

Yeah I was a bit fast with my silence-post maybe but you and NM were posting very quickly and that suddenly stopped. Oh well..

Yes I would think it's stupid for farside to do exactly what you did in our previous game where you attracted the tracker.
I admit farside looks like she's not really reading sometimes, and that's confusing to me. I'd think scum would want to read carefully to find things to make town look bad on, but town wants to read carefully too because we want to find the scum. I'm gonna sit on this some more.
So far I'm still happy with my vote on NM (and that's regardless of what Rev said about it) because NM was, again, quick to call someone town.

[Wanderer-nl]

And Rev, that's not really what I meant when I asked you that question. You had a scumread on NM yesterday, I'm wondering if anything changed after your recent discussion with him.

[Wanderer-nl]

It's just this and the elemental mafia that just ended, and it's just an impression I have of you because I wasn't really scumreading you and I never caught that slip you made in elemental. I wasn't scumreading you here either, but getting a lot of doubts lately and I hope to clear those.

[Wanderer-nl]

That's ok, I replaced in later.

[Wanderer-nl]

@farside: re my vote and your 'what?'
From my 511

Not-Mafia to me looks like he is trying to prevent a claim by declaring intent to hammer at L-2, and he also said he'd probably hammer pending a claim. That prevents any reads of reactions to that claim and that's scummy in my opinion.

So that's the first time I commented on NM's intent to hammer.
I repeated that in 512 and got back to it in 564. Then in 567, 568, 569 Kaboose and I discuss what 'pending the claim' means and in 570 NM says Kaboose's interpretation is correct.
Why didn't NM correct me after my 511? Or 512 which was a lot shorter? Why wait until the person being wagoned, whom you just stepped off of, comes with a more convenient explanation for you?

Tell me now: what does 'pending' mean other than 'about to be handled'?

[Wanderer-nl]

Why would you want to wait for Monkeys reaction? Aren't your own reads more important?

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm too strunk for this right now good night.

[Wanderer-nl]

I would much rather get the farside/Rev thing out of the way. Those 2 are tunnelling hard on each other and at this point I'm so done with that arguing that I want one of them gone.
Flubber's questions look like they're coming from town, not really getting a gut-scumfeel there which I did in our previous (elemental) game where he was scum.
Skold, hard one, in our last game he was scum and all he would do is post reads and say they're gut and nothing else. He'd also ignore every accusation to him. He certainly needs pressure, I agree with that.

I'm gonna reread day 2 farside and Rev.

unvote

Still annoyed NM didn't correct me earlier, still have reasons for scumreading him, but this vote isn't going anywhere so I'm dropping it for now.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh and I wanted to add that Monkey's vote mixup looks more town than scum to me because I think scum would be more careful when they make a vote. I'm not saying scum would never make this mistake, but I'm not gonna call scum just over that.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Rev: Can you point out to me how farside is acting nervous because I don't see it.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm done.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm sorry I'm in a bad mood today. I'm not done, I just got tired of all this.

I've reread Rev's and farside's combined iso's several times over the weekend and I just can't figure it out. And it's also sort of blocking my thoughts on other stuff in this game.

[Wanderer-nl]

Lurker-Skold = scum.
VOTE: Skold

(Taking some time off from farside and Rev, I just want to catch scum today. 9p left, lynch today is 8p left, 2 kills is 6p tomorrow. Scumteam of probably 3p? Yeah we have to catch scum)

[Wanderer-nl]

Nice going, I didn't realize that from Monkey myself. He hasn't been high on my suspect-list lately, and I have been focussing on farside and Rev a lot. Also I felt he was more likely town because I was suspecting NM. I should try to keep a more open mind..

I've recently finished a newbie with Skold where he was scum and lurked all the way to a victory. Not going to let him do that again. As town, he can make thoughtful posts so I want him to start doing that here. I had my doubts before because of 88 and 202 because that's a lot more than he ever did in our newbie. In 524 he posts a sheep-vote and then goes into lurking-mode.

I've been focussed on farside and Rev too much so I'm lost right now regarding everyone else (except Skold) so I'm going to read up on some iso's and post a new readslist later.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm about to vote Rev just for talking in WIFOM-cases and not making clear what he means and Rev, if farside is VT she also knows your crumb was fake so I don't know wtf you are talking about.

[Wanderer-nl]

Sorry frustrated me doesn't think well before making posts.

[Wanderer-nl]

The thing is, I saw farside accusing you of being scum, she was asking you who your buddies were after you came with the crumb.
@farside, again, let me know if I'm wrong there.
@Rev: I don't see what you are seeing. And you taking your vote off farside and on someone else means to me you didn't find a result, even though you still taunted farside when you moved your vote. I'm just getting so tired of this arguing I'm never gonna play a mafiagame with both Rev and farside anymore.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm leaving iso's for day 3, I want to vote either farside or Rev today, or else someone whose flip will tell us a great deal about farside and Rev. That could be Monkey.

[Wanderer-nl]

Or NM.

[Wanderer-nl]

So, if like you said scum kills you because you might be the cop, how do we figure out farside was behind that in any way? It's all WIFOM. Also, you seem pretty sure to be the NK, I don't see why you won't just come out with your guilty anyway. At least then we can go on associations that are already in this thread. Like you said; you caused a shitstorm of info. Now let us use it!

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm about to vote Rev just for talking in WIFOM-cases and not making clear what he means and Rev, if farside is VT she also knows your crumb was fake so I don't know wtf you are talking about.

Do you get the impression that farisde knows my crumb is fake? Because I don't. She hasn't mentioned it once that I can recall.

You just assume everybody believes you left a crumb but I never took it that way. You've been on farside most of day 1, who cares you call her scum at the start of day 2?

[Wanderer-nl]

skold or monkey should be lynched today.

Or NM, because his flip will tell us stuff too. What made your opinion on him change again?

[Wanderer-nl]

So, if like you said scum kills you because you might be the cop, how do we figure out farside was behind that in any way? It's all WIFOM.

You're rolefishing here, whether you realise it or not.

If I die, farside is scum.
If I don't die, I claim tomorrow.

Or NM, because his flip will tell us stuff too. What made your opinion on him change again?

Monkey made my opinion on NM change. Monkey is doing nothing to try and figure out my alignment. NM seems to be more willing to accept me as town. I'm pretty easy to push, so I'm not expecting scum to dish out cheap town points for me, especially given that they'll want my claim.

Sorry, I realise now you already said that. Gonna read on but wanted to get this out of the way first.

[Wanderer-nl]

To everybody:
How come, if so may of us have issues deciding between farside and Rev, that Rev has 3 votes on him and farside 0?

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh for fuck's sake stop complaining. I've created a shitstorm of info today and I'm not going to apologise for my methods.

I moved my vote off farside because I don't expect to see through her lynch without me claiming today. You can assume what you like but I'm confirming nothing.

Is this the sort of frustration coming from town trying to get other town agreeing on a scumread or is this furstration coming from scum who can't get town lynched?

Hey you know what? I'll leave until someone gets lynched. I'm done for today. Fucking fellow townies barely bothered to do a fucking thing about this.

[Wanderer-nl]

It would have been awesome if someone other than you responded to that. Oh well. I have a problem with the discussion going back to you and farside all the time. I'm just as much a part of that as anyone else.
One more thing: if your case is so obvious, then how come farside doesn't have any votes but you do? Maybe you should try something different to convince us of farside's scumminess? Stop telling me what you would do as scum, as far as I'm concerned you could be scum presenting yourself this way to create WIFOM. You are very aware of how you come accross, you talk about it even, can you agree that makes me wonder?

If you could just let farside be for now so she has to respond to other stuff in the game, then maybe I'm able to make a decent read of her. Oh, we're getting that actually.

Have fun wherever you're going!

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm Town Neighbour.

Popcorn Dierfire.

(I don't know what the proper 'form' is when claiming neighbour)

[Wanderer-nl]

@farside: well obviously NM/MM in the beginning. But we didn't always agree on reads so I don't think we really took all we could from being neighbours (that is, if we're both town)

By PoE the scumteam should be Monkey, farside and Bella. Unless Dierfire is scum after all, but he had his case on Monkey so no.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm horrible in these situations.
I believe NM because of the lack of more PR's but then again, a town neighbourhood is pretty strong as well..
Scum could have killed Rev to make farside look worse.
I get why NM investigated Draynth and Flubber; Draynth had town- and scumreads and Flubber was unreadable in general. Rev and farside were talkative enough to sort themselves out in thread.
@farside: your case on MM isn't really compelling. You kept naming him with Rev and only really pushed Rev. Also, your post sounded a little like bargaining to me. Sure, if you bus one of your buddies I'll go for them before you.

PEdit:
@Bella: we were neighbours from the start. About Flub, ^

[Wanderer-nl]

Ok sure if you say so.

So what do we do now? For me (and Dierfire) it's easy, by PoE scumteam has to be farside, Monkey and Bella. But for all the others there could be scum between me and Dierfire..
NM what are your thoughts?

[Wanderer-nl]

Yes you called Monkey out a couple of times. I wouldn't call it repeatedly though. For me there's a difference between your accusing Rev and accusing Monkey. You pushed Rev, Monkey not so much.

PEdit: @NM: his post on Monkey 785 and his post on our communication 880. Also the fact that he never pushed me into a direction/read, or the other way around. We shared our thoughts and I never got the feeling Dierfire was being dishonest. We also talked about a way to confirm each other as neighbours in thread but we never came up with something. I think if Dierfire was scum, he'd want to come up with something that could clear him in this thread.

[Wanderer-nl]

First line is at farside.

[Wanderer-nl]

@farside: Remember where I posted how I got my townread on Dierfire? Did you read where Dierfire explained how he got his townread on me?

@Bella: you can stop AtE-ing now.

[Wanderer-nl]

This is hilarious really.

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: monkey

I'm 100% sure on Bella as third.

[Wanderer-nl]

No dear, we're just waiting for Flubber to finish the job.

[Wanderer-nl]

BTW, you've been scumreading monkey so wth?!?

[Wanderer-nl]

^That's my concern too, actually.

[Wanderer-nl]

Dierfire and me weren't confirmed to each other besides being neighbours. Ofc there's doubt. But my townread on Dierfire is much stronger than this doubt. I don't mind who goes first; Bella or farside.
Flubber can you please not? We need your vote.

[Wanderer-nl]

The only reason I'm not voting yet is because I want to see if Bella wants to try anything. But other than that I'm good to go. Flubber, what are your thoughts?

[Wanderer-nl]

Thanks farside for confirming Dierfire 100% to me.
Can we vote Bella now? And tomorrow farside?

[Wanderer-nl]

It's Wanderer, not Wonder. It's she, not he. I didn't agree, I was concerned. I think it's pretty obvious what I meant and you're doing exactly what is expected of you, I applaud that. But it was already obvious who is scum yesterday and voting you guys off is just a formality right now.

[Wanderer-nl]

I was.

[Wanderer-nl]

I have to go but I think I was clear in how I felt about Monkey through the game. If you have any questions I'm happy to answer but I'm about to leave and already regret refreshing right before having to go. Back in a few hours.

[Wanderer-nl]

Well then, I have a busy weekend coming up (Dutch roller derby championships and my team is playing and I hope to be as good as them one day but this weekend I'll be supporting them) and this is about to happen anyway so
VOTE: Bella

[Wanderer-nl]

Can we just end this please? I'm voting farside tomorrow and that's going to be all I'll be posting in this thread anymore.

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: farside
Dierfire if you want me to make an actual case before making up your mind I will, but I don't think I need to.

[Wanderer-nl]

Dier, farside has been active online, if I made the wrong vote the game would have been over now.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh wait my logic is flawed, it wouldn't be over but farside would have definitely posted here if she was town.

[Wanderer-nl]

farside was scumreading Monkey but didn't vote for him when we did. She did hammer Bella, but she was townreading her before.

[Wanderer-nl]

I appreciate using poe to determine scum, and I agree Farside and Bella might be guilty, but I'm not totally convinced on Flubber and Wanderer.

Bahahaha.

@Monkey, Farside and Bella. Who is the scumteam?

Monkey, wander and diefire.
Yes I think the neighbor thing is fake.
I was town reading Bella so part of it is POE for me too.

[Wanderer-nl]

That's actually pretty funny..

[Wanderer-nl]

Since NM claimed I've been consistingly calling you, Monkey and Bella scum, when NM claimed you were still calling Bella town. The 2nd day of lylo you had no problem hammering Bella. And you didn't hammer or even vote Monkey, who you actually had as a scumread. And you have done nothing but push Rev and barely pushed Monkey.
And also; had I been mafia with Monkey and Bella I would have pushed harder on a NM lynch instead of trying to figure out if NM and Monkey had a PT AT THE START OF THE GAME!!!

[Wanderer-nl]

No, day 2 I gave up on my NM-scumread because it didn't get support. I spent most of day 2 reading your arguing with Rev and trying to figure you guys out until I got tired of it and put a pressure-vote on Skold. Monkey's hammer there was horrible enough to change my read, excuse me for not spelling that out but it should be obvious that someone who hasn't posted should at least get a chance to post something before hammering unless it's very close to deadline and that wasn't the case.

[Wanderer-nl]

Thanks for modding!
GG all.
I confused neighbours with masons at the start, and I didn't immediately say it when I realized because I wasn't sure if I could trust Dier because he didn't correct me. I never had a scumread on him but I have been worried that he could be scum.

[Wanderer-nl]

I had a lot of fun with everyone and even though I got frustrated a lot by Rev and farside, that's still mostly my own problem and doesn't mean I don't like you guys. I would have been very annoyed if both of you flipped town
farside's 'scummybutt' made me laugh every time I read it and Rev, I enjoy reading your thoughts even though I don't always agree.