♫ Mini 1689: Rhyme & Reason (Success!)

[Pegasus30]

Here are my issues with Yos:

(1) His claim of saying that he was "leading bandwagons" in Post 904 when he's mostly been a passenger rather than driving them.

• AP's wagon D1 had 5 votes at its peak in Post 183. It developed entirely on its own. At its peak, it consisted of DrDolittle, Yos, GC, me, and Quil with the first four of us voting for our own reasons and Quil agreeing with me and Yos.
  
• The GC "wagon" was never really a thing. Chamber started it. Yos voted for his own reasons. Axxle had his vote there for a short time before unvoting.
  
• The Quar wagon on D1 was primarily because of my push on him. At it's peak, it also had five votes: (Pegasus30, Yosarian2, Green Crayons, DrDolittle, Katsuki). GC explicitly voted because of my case. DrDolittle voted because "the cool people were on the wagon." Katsuki never provided any reasoning.

(2) A similar claim he made D2 of "leading bandwagons" seems like he's trying to take credit for things he did not do.

• D2, he votes Quaroath presumably for the same reasons as D1 and summary given in Post 982. He never provides any reasoning and wagon never really takes off until I get on it and push it to completion. Post 1078 comes the closest when Quar hops onto his wagon at a perfect timing for a bus and then Yos confirms his Quar vote. Post 1108 is a response to Quar and Post 1144 is a response to Zito. Post 1262 question PapaZito on why he joined the Quar wagon.
  
• Upon Quar's claim, he spent quite a lot of effort trying to derail the lynch and persuade me off of it, this despite the fact that he never actually bought Quar's claim.
  
• His Post 1415 is a pretty blatant misrepresentation of his entire play in the game and Post 1417 where he says he got the Quar wagon going is a flat-out lie. When I point out that he had next to zero influence on the wagon in Post 1419, he never responds.
  Seriously, read all the quotes in this post.
  Three of the players who joined the wagon were collaborating with me with PapaZito being wary because Yos was on the wagon. So, Yos's presence on the Quar wagon was a
  deterrent
  to at least one person joining it. There is no universe in which Yos got the wagon going nor one in which he was "leading bandwagons." The only person who led a wagon on scum is me. I don't like Yos calling me obvtown and associating himself with me either. His reasoning was that no way a scum-me would push him (an active player leading wagons and calling me town) when a) he hasn't been doing this and b) I actually thought he was calling me scum towards the end of D1 so he's actually calling me town for the wrong reasons - feels more like he's scum that knows I'm town.

(3) The multiple times he's attempted to telegraph moving off of the Quar wagon both D1 and D2.

• In Post 639, he agrees with me on Bookitty and says that he wouldn't mind switching from Quar to Bookitty. His previous read on Bookitty in Post 541 seemed to be moving townward so it makes no sense to telegraph a vote change from Quar to Bookitty at this point. I'd really like an elaboration for the explanation in Post 883 on why you had second thoughts about the Bookitty townread.
  
• Telegraphs a vote for Lalaladucks in Post 787. This isn't as telling because he suspected Empire but it is still consistent with scum wanting to switch their vote off of a buddy but was holding back to make sure the momentum didn't swing back to Quar after he switches his vote which would make him look extremely bad.
  
• In Post 1289, he offers Quar a chance to post a case against Katsuki again telegraphing a change from Quar to Kat if Quar presents a case that is sufficient which fits in with scum trying to provide an out to their buddy while leaving their vote on them.

(4) His overblown townread on AP is ridiculous.

• His Post 1318 grossly misrepresents AP's actions through the game. AP had never actually defended his D2 townreads (Quar and Yos) to any substantial amount so characterizing it as "going to absurd lengths to defends his townreads" leaves me with a wtf reaction. "
  It doesn't look like he's picking who to attack and who to defend based on convenience
  " is also horribly wrong when AP picked two relatively easy targets both of whom scumread him early D2.
  
• His latest analysis is shallow and contrived as well and I'm not convinced him giving a pass to AP is based on genuine reasoning. AP hard-townread scum, then backed off slowly and finally hammered when Quar lynch was a near certainty and I don't find him town in the slightest.

[Pegasus30]

Peg, you're turning paranoid again, just like you did at the end of day 1, and as far as I can tell it's based on absolutely nothing except that you don't fully understand my playstyle and where my reads come from. And I don't know how to explain them in any more detail then I already have, which IMHO has been quite extensive.

Have you in any of your past games described yourself as "leading bandwagons" or attempted to take credit for lynches when you were town?

In your mind, what is the definition of leading a wagon?

[Pegasus30]

I'm disappointed that Chamber said he'd post analysis last night and didn't show up.

I got distracted and only made it like 1/3 of the way through stuff. I'm just starting again now.

I would really like it if you comment on Post 1718 in some level of detail sometime after Yos responds to it.

[Pegasus30]

Furthermore, anyone with a scumread on me is still epically failing at mafia.

Please explain why you think this. D2, I was pushing a lynch on scum while you had him as your strongest townread and kept talking about how I couldn't scumhunt my way out of a paper bag. So, I'd like to see an interpretation of your behavior where having a scumread on you is worthy of saying that someone "epically fails at mafia."

[Pegasus30]

@ Yos, can you link me to two of your scumgames that you perceive are your "best" games that are representative of the full breadth of your scumgame? I looked through Karma mafia but you got lynched in that game and I'm assuming that's not the reason you got your title as most cunning manipulator that you alluded to earlier.

[Pegasus30]

I'd also like you to explain precisely what about Katsuki's early posting you found scummy. You apparently find it easy to read players that make short emotional one-liners when looked at in context. Katsuki's jump on the Quar wagon and push on Bookitty at that time was not only incredibly town, it falls right in line with your other reads (scum on Quar and Bookitty) so I find it odd that you missed this entirely while picking up on DrDolittle's "towntells" which were far more ambiguous.

I'm also not "paranoid" and characterizing it as such feels more like discrediting suspicion before I post my case.

[Pegasus30]

DoLittle cast the first vote on AP, but didn't do much else. I cast the second vote, then steadily increased the pressure on him with a series of posts, and then made the case against him. The wagon pretty clearly would not have happened without me; I think it's enteirly obvious that I was the leader of that wagon.

What does "leader of the wagon" mean to you? Does it solely mean someone who cast the first (real) vote on the wagon? The one who's pushing it the hardest. From my perspective, leading a wagon means to influence the wagon/lynch the most. If you have a different definition, state it for me in detail so we don't talk past each other.

(shrug) Depends on definitions, I suppose. I would call 3 votes on someone that early in the game a "wagon", but whatever.

No, you are missing my point. The GC "wagon" was all of three votes, started by Chamber, you being the second vote and Axxle voting there briefly for a time with no reasoning. My point is that you weren't being intellectually honest with Bookitty when you told her you've been driving wagons when the GC wagon was negligible and only one brief vote followed yours. You may call 3 votes a "wagon" but Chamber's vote was there before yours.

I really think that the Quar wagon on day 1 was primarily because of me.

Yes, you voted him right before I did (although I didn't see your vote until after I made my case against him), but I was pretty clearly the most aggressive one in attacking him, my case against him quite strong and unrelated to anything you posted, and I think I am the reason the wagon took off the way it did. (It's not the reason GC voted for him, since GC didn't trust me, but other then that.) I also never left the wagon until the very end of the day, and started the wagon on him on day 2 once that whole bookitty mess was cleared up.

I mean, if you think that I'm overestimating how much influence I've had in this town, I guess that's a matter of opinion. I really don't think that either the day 1 AP wagon nor the day 1 Quar wagon would ever have gone anywhere without me leading those wagons, but I suppose it's possible they could have. But note that the post you're attacking here was in response to Bookitty implying I hadn't done anything this game, so I was giving examples of all the big things I did on day 1. That's the context here, which you seem to be missing. I wasn't claiming "credit" for anything, I was explaining what I've done this game. And for the first half of the day, on day 1, I was the driving force behind every major wagon.

Absolutely not. And I don't get how you can honestly come to that conclusion. I naked-voted Quar in Post 412. Then you voted Quar in Post 418. No one else hopped onto the wagon and everyone just went about their own way. That was on page 17. On page 21, I started my case in Post 501. DrDolittle THEN said that he likes my case on Quar in Post 510. GC voted in Post 513 based on my case. DrDolittle followed that up with a vote in Post 527. That makes two votes that were influenced by my case. Katsuki later naked voted. In what possible world are you thinking your push had anything to do with driving the Quar wagon when everyone ignored your back-and-forth but in a span of one page, I made a case on Quar and got him to L-2?

- I naked voted
- You voted after a brief case which everyone ignored for three pages.
- I made a case
- DrDolittle liked my case and voted later on.
- Green Crayons explicitly sheeped my case.
- Katsuki naked voted.

And your interpretation was that

you

led the wagon?

Bullshit

. And no, I'm not glorifying what I did and downplaying what you did. I think you are scum because you are misrepresenting the events of the game to make yourself look like you were influential in the lynches/wagons.

Bullshit. I was the first one to vote Quar on day 2.

Your entire case against me just seems to be you bragging about your own play and trying to downplay the importance of everything I've done this game. There is no way in hell the town would have lynched Quar at all if I hadn't caught him on day 1, and I caught him because of the bullshit case he tried to make against me, and the way he reacted when I called him out on it.

I think you're dramatically overestimating the importance and influence of your own play this game and dramatically underestimating mine. And frankly, it's kind of insulting. But whatever, that doesn't even matter; what matters is that you're calling me a "liar" based on completely subjective things, which is just absurd.

You failed to respond to the post where I quoted everyone's reasons for joining the Quar-wagon. Each and every one of them were collaborating with me. PapaZito even said that your presence on the wagon was a deterrent to him.

Why are you ignoring this? Nothing that you did influenced players to join the wagon. It is not subjective that you are lying. I brought forth evidence showing why each player joined the wagon and you continued to argue that you were responsible for the wagon.

[Pegasus30]

By the way, I looked through Oldy Mafia 2 to see how Yos treats bandwagons and some of what he's saying is consistent (he overstates his ability to push and influence wagons) but he's also not above giving credit where it is due, for example read through his post in that game where he openly acknowledges that even though he was wagon the wagon on LoudMouthLee, that PetroleumJelly was the one pushing the wagon. So, he's not so caught up in his ego that he thinks that he's always the reason wagons form. He has a decent grasp on reality. But here, he's literally writing revisionist history to make it seem like he pushed a lynch on scum.

I'll read that game and his scumgames to develop my read further but this is most likely where my vote is going to end up and Yos is who I think we should be lynching today.

Seriously, read this dude's posts and follow the links I showed where he's lying. He's scum.

[Pegasus30]

VOTE: Yosarian

[Pegasus30]

what matters is that you're calling me a "liar" based on completely subjective things, which is just absurd

Also, I want to bring attention to this line which is a really, really roundabout way of suggesting that he suspects me. He knows he can't just attack me and get away with it but he needs and out to push back because once I made the case on him, if he's going to be solely reactive, he'll look bad. This is similar to his end of day "suspicion" on me which seems really vaguely worded and when I pointed it out, he retracted it and claimed it wasn't suspicion at all.

[Pegasus30]

@ AngryPidgeon, I've been operating under the theory that you and Yos are scum together but if you are somehow actually town here, you're very very wrong about Yos. I suggest you give a read-through of Yos's ISO and my points against him in Post 1542, Post 1718, and Post 1726. I asked you to re-evaluate your other strong townread (Quar) and you pretty much dismissed it. Take some time to re-evaluate Yos if you are actually town here. Go over his ISO keeping what I wrote in those posts in mind. I was right about Quar and I feel fairly certain I'm right about Yos as well.

[Pegasus30]

I'll check back in tomorrow and I really hope everyone actually reads through Yos's interactions with Quar and sees that he's scum here and would really love it if there are more votes on him by then.

[Pegasus30]

(1) The initial post where you talked to Bookitty and said you led bandwagons was fine but it was

after

I brought it to your attention that D2 did not go the way you claimed it did, you continued to ignore it and push this narrative that you were leading the wagon even to the point of your Post 1724.

(2) You made no "case" against Quar. You took issue with something you perceived as illogical and voted him. DrDolittle explicitly said he liked my case and said nothing about yours so your interpretation that he voted because of your case even after I pointed out to you in my wall above is twisting the facts.

(3) Saying my "support" helped is a load of bullshit after I explicitly pointed out that both the D1 AND D2 wagons on Quar were led primarily by me.

But let me ask you, straight out; do you honestly believe that we would have had any chance at lynching Quar if I hadn't been attacking him from fairly early on day 1?

This is a joke, right? Please tell me you are trolling me because there's no way you'd be asking this question after reading my walls above. It has also been answered already.

[Pegasus30]

So, anyway, Peg's gone off the deep end again, AP and Kat are tunneling on each other again, and Dr has vanished for 3 days after not voting. Meanwhile, Chamber's acting caught scum who's clearly given up at this point, and nobody seems to notice or care.

Uh, nice try discrediting me.

If you were town, you'd admit that the Quar wagons D1 and D2 were primarily led by me, acknowledge your error when you mis-stated the facts the Bookitty and answer in a totally different way than you are doing now.

[Pegasus30]

Your response convinced me that I was right about you being scum. And don't say that your mis-stating the facts on D2 from memory makes you town. Your behavior

now

is what cements my scumread.

[Pegasus30]

Christ almighty, who cares who lead what wagons??

If you think this is about who "led" the wagon, you're not reading the interaction in its entirety. And no, I'm not calling Yos scum for not leading a wagon, I'm calling him scum because he twisted the fact that he was on the Quar wagon to paint it as if he was influential in the Quar lynch when he was anything but.

It is actually really blatant. Please read through my case and all the links I provided again and ISO Yos to see what I mean.

I think you are very, very wrong about Chamber. He is disengaged but several things he's doing make sense from a town perspective - I listed these out in my wall on Chamber. The way this is going, I think the town will lose to a Yos + AP scumteam. At least read the game again and try and make decisions from there. It feels like I read the game about 5 times and most other people are just skimming the walls and going with the easy lynch. I was dead right about Quar which is reason enough for you to not dismiss my scumhunting wholesale and glaze over my posts so please actually read my entire cases.

[Pegasus30]

@ Yos, can you link me to two of your scumgames that you perceive are your "best" games that are representative of the full breadth of your scumgame? I looked through Karma mafia but you got lynched in that game and I'm assuming that's not the reason you got your title as most cunning manipulator that you alluded to earlier.

[Pegasus30]

First off, I wasn't asking you to trust my analysis, I'm asking you to read it with more than just a cursory glaze-over which you must have done if you honestly interpreted the arguments as if they were referring to who led the wagon.

If you are looking at people "scumhunting poorly," you should be looking at AP as well who had Quar in his top town pile.

Town can be wrong and I spent a lot of time explaining why Chamber's actions can easily come from a town motivation. In order to read someone, I try and put myself in their shoes and analyze motivations beyond just a "you are wrong, therefore scum" and I don't think Chamber is it. I'm worried we're headed towards a mislynch and a potential Yos/AP win. I don't think the game is remotely as easy as you are making it out to be and I estimate that I've spent roughly 20 times the effort you have into figuring this out so the least you can do is actually put enough effort to understand my viewpoint and consider all options and possibilities.

[Pegasus30]

The two major reasons I think Chamber will flip town are essentially these:

(1) His entire viewpoint of the gamestate D1 is consistent. It is hard to tell if you weren't the subject of his suspicion but **he distrusted me.** He really, really didn't like what I had to offer, found my playstyle and cases scummy and that's why he was critical of pushes I made. Apparently, in his mind I used a lot of rhetoric and made points seem more major than they were which he seemingly thought was scummy. So, whenever I made a push, he was critiquing it, pointing out flaws and such. When the wagon developed, I almost predicted that Chamber if town would speak up against the wagon because that was my read on his mindset. He acted exactly like I expected a town-him to act and talked about his discomfort with the wagon.

(2) If he was scum, he'd bus his weaker partner when the wagon was building. Derailing it only makes him look terrible on a surface level and he knew Quar was getting lynched eventually so this wasn't him attempting to get a perfect win.

[Pegasus30]

Um, he didn't state evidence bluntly for all to see? Look at things at context.

So, I went through his old games to check how much of it is just playstyle. My impression was that he reacts strongly as both alignments but his overreactions as scum seem significantly more pronounced and over the top. This was what I was hoping Empire would point out when he committed to reading through Quar's games. There's another thing I want talk about but I want to see if Empire does mention it before I elaborate.

What games did you use and what was your methodology?

So, I went through his old games to check how much of it is just playstyle. My impression was that he reacts strongly as both alignments but his overreactions as scum seem

significantly more pronounced and over the top

. This was what I was hoping Empire would point out when he committed to reading through Quar's games. There's another thing I want talk about but I want to see if Empire does mention it before I elaborate.

This is what I caught onto as well and is part of what led me to write #378 although it probably doesn't look apparent from the wording of that post. I'm going to go look through the games right now which will probably take some time but if you're around, please don't reveal what the second thing is yet, I want to see if we're on the same page.

Which games did you use?

I picked three at random and read his iso and guessed his alignment based on Pegasus' claim before checking it. I was right once(town and was town) and wrong twice(town and was scum, scum and was town).

So, basically I think this is just a case of people using meta as a means of confirmation bias. I need to actually check over everything else pegasus has said though, I did that much and stopped, waiting for his reply.

I don't like this wagon.

wanna share with the class?

I still have pegasus' case and Quar's iso open in tabs, I haven't gone over that. The way the votes are falling just feels wrong. Katuski's vote doesn't make me feel any better about it.

I know you're not big on CASES, but I would be interested in your vetting of Quar/the Quar-case.

I would be too. I haven't found the drive to do my due diligence. One thing I can say is that none of pegasus' points are things I thought while reading the thread initially, and that's at least a knock against it(skimming the case again that's not entirly true, I did think that quar's comment to pegasus in 422 stuck out a bit). I also really don't like pegasus' method of presenting points. It annoyed me (and made me suspicious of him) when he did it to AP. Now I just think it's a play style thing, but it's a bad play style thing. He uses a lot of rhetoric and builds up points to seem as major as he can. Makes it a lot harder for me to parse.

[Pegasus30]

Also, why do you think AP is both defending Chamber as well as stating an intent to hammer when Chamber got to L-1?

Regardless, Chamber's lack of showing up to the game and providing his insights has been the source of a lot of irritation. I'll give him a few more days and if he doesn't show, I'll probably accept that he's going to wind up being lynched regardless of alignment.

But half the town being so disengaged and thinking the game's in the bag is worrying me quite a bit and I'd like people to actually put more effort into the game.

[Pegasus30]

I just hope that if he's town like I think, he will show up and engage with the game.

I do want you to explain why you think Yos and AP are town.

@ AP, please respond to all of my posts directed at you in the last several hours.

[Pegasus30]

@ Quilford

,

(2) If he was scum, he'd bus his weaker partner when the wagon was building. Derailing it only makes him look terrible on a surface level and he knew Quar was getting lynched eventually so this wasn't him attempting to get a perfect win.

FTR, this is pretty much where I'm at with it.

This is part of my annoyance with the game. You have not even taken a second glance at AP who "agrees" with me about Chamber being town. You are content to call him town and content to push the Chamber lynch without once analyzing the motivations of people who are stating reads on Chamber.

[Pegasus30]

No, of course it's not a joke. I don't think there's any way the day 1 wagon on quar gets up to the level it is without my attack and vote on him to get the momentum going.

Lol. I don't think you are as separated from reality as you are making it seem in this post. I pointed out to you with

specifics

that the momentum of the Quar wagon was almost solely because of my case. I listed out page numbers to show that nobody gave a damn about your argument with Quar.

D2 wagon on Quar happened because of me. I gave you proof by pointing out that you only discouraged, not encouraged votes on the wagon and you just glossed it over and filed it under "semantics" when your posts have very real scum motivation of making yourself look better.

Also, your presenting yourself as a player that's leading bandwagons is grossly misleading as towards the end of D1, I was the only one really leading wagons which also makes your townread on me feel like an informed read. But I think this last part may be playstyle as I know you overstate your ability to push wagons as evidenced by Oldy Mafia 2.

[Pegasus30]

By some miracle if you actually wind up being town here, you so ridiculously misrepresented what happened in this game that I've no idea what to tell you. If you are town, please re-read my case on you and all of the links I provided and come up with an explanation that actually reflects reality. I want to see if you are even capable of doing it or are misrepping intentionally.

[Pegasus30]

@ Yos, And please explain your townread on me in detail. You didn't respond when I pointed out that it was based on a false premise of a) you being an active voice leading wagons (the only person doing this was me), and b) me attacking you when you were reading me as town (I thought you were scumreading me so a hypothetical scum-me wouldn't be attacking someone who was reading me as town at all because that's not what I would be thinking internally).

In fact, part of my reason for suspecting you is that you know I've put a ridiculous amount of effort into this game, am active, vocal, and pushed several wagons and you know you can't just scumread me and get away with it so are reading me as "town" to get me to stay on your side. So, it sounded completely nuts when you put forth a similar argument.

[Pegasus30]

I'm frustrated as fuck, we have caught scum based on both behavior and night actions, and you're screwing around with semantic bullshit that doesn't mean anything in order to claim you've "caught me in a lie". "Yos believes he was very important in the day 1 bandwagon and I think he might have been slightly less important, although of course neither of us really know" is not a "lie", and I'm sure you understand that, but you just keep banging on about it anyway.

For what it's worth Pegasus this reminds me a lot of yos from oldy 2. He also seemed to have an inflated sense of contribution to things in it (perhaps it wasn't inflated, but it certainly felt like it at the time)).

I've seen some similarities after I posted my case which actually made me think I was on the wrong track and then he posted that response which so completely skewed things that I couldn't believe town can honestly think that.

I also would like to hear what you think of my wall case on him.

[Pegasus30]

I grant the possibility that I could be wrong on Yos but AP/DrDolittle would be my best guess for the scumteam if that's the case. What's yours?

Do you have any opinions on AP's defense of you?

[Pegasus30]

I haven't actually read it. With no offense intended to you, interacting with your walls is easily the most draining experience for me in this game, and is probably a large contributing factor to me being demotivated at points. I was most active and interested in the game today when not being dragged around by you. Not only do I dislike walls in general, but your way of thinking is just different from mine. It makes it hard.

None taken but a couple of questions:
1. In MacBeth mafia most of which I read, you seemed to have a lot more fire to avoid getting lynched when DrippingGoofball started tunneling you. Is there a reason you are seemingly okay with your lynch here? What's the difference beyond just lots of walls?
2. Do you have a lot of experience playing with Yosarian beyond just Oldy Mafia? You've both been on site for ten years based on your join date.

On the subject of walling, it works for me and I'm not going to change my playstyle so you're just going to have to work around it. Personally I tend to be surprised that players who dislike walls pursue a text-based game as a hobby.

[Pegasus30]

UNVOTE:

[Pegasus30]

For fucks sake. Yosarian is town or I'm retiring from mafia. Truax .

I've mulled over Yosarian's responses to me last night and I feel reasonably sure scum won't feel that

offended

that their bus didn't work out like they hoped so I'm inclined to agree - for the first time I actually have a townread on Yosarian. This makes me feel slightly better about you because it means I don't have to assume that you are either terrible for townreading two scum or scum yourself. I can still work with a theory that you are competent as town and were correctly reading Yosarian as town only being wrong on one read.

I haven't discounted you/DrDolittle being the team though so you're going to have to explain to me why your suspicion of him seems to be rather minimal and you read Ducks as stronger scum than him. I also dislike how he takes snipes at you but never votes you but that's something only he can explain.

[Pegasus30]

@ Yosarian, if you are town here like I'm now leaning towards, you need to stop with the discredits especially towards your townreads as it makes it harder to re-evaluate and makes you look scummy. Misreads happen and they are easier to correct when you give straight answers.

Your interpretation of who pushed the wagons in this game is completely off but I'm convinced you actually believe it so I'll set that aside. I still need a couple of things:

1. A link to a scumgame of yours which you think best represents your capabilities. Preferably the one that got the Cunning Manipulator award but you don't remember which it was, an alternative will do.

2. Your opinion/analysis on the interactions between DrDolittle/AP.

[Pegasus30]

I spent more then an hour on that analysis, as you can easily see from the time of my posts. And there was nothing "shallow" or "contrived" about it; not in the slightest.

And on this point, I've spent about 5-6 hours total analyzing Quar's interactions with others so yeah I'll call something shallow if I see it as shallow. In particular, your reads on Lalaladucks and me feel like confbias in that you already have us as town before and are just re-iterating that read which initially made me think you were scum trying to justify premeditated reads. You happened to be right about me but I'm not so sure about Lalaladucks. I need to give it a good re-read to be sure.

[Pegasus30]

Okay, so here's where I'm at regarding the lynch for today. Lynching DrDolittle is my first choice. I'm not big on stuff like "he contradicted himself therefore he's town" when I don't see a clear town motive for any of his actions. I realize that's likely not going to happen with the focus on Chamber and Chamber not even showing up.

Not gonna finish again tonight.

This isn't going to cut it for me. I liked your D1 play and I thought your perspective while different from mine was rather intriguing so I'll give you another 24 hours as a courtesy before I add my vote to your wagon if others haven't already done so.

Alternatively, if a DrDolittle wagon crops up, I might go there. In the meantime, I'll re-read and hopefully make some breakthroughs in scumhunting - with my townread on Yosarian, the game is starting to make a lot more sense.

[Pegasus30]

@ AP, please answer my earlier question - do you seriously think someone has to be bad at mafia to be scumreading you?

[Pegasus30]

Okay, thanks for the link. One other concern I wanted answered:

3. You stated both here and in Oldy Mafia 2 that you tend to get easier reads on players who post emotional one-liners as opposed to walls because you try to read them based on the timing of their reads.

If that's true, why weren't you townreading Katsuki's entrance where he said that if Quar was scum, Bookitty was too. At that time, you had both Quar AND Bookitty as scum so I would have expected someone scumreading both of them to be a townread for you. Were there other factors that prevented you from townreading him?

[Pegasus30]

@ AP, please answer my earlier question - do you seriously think someone has to be bad at mafia to be scumreading you?

I think I'm really obviously town but of course I'm biased about that. This is completely different from my scum game, but I guess I can't expect people to know that. Still on phone.

I'm not going to rehash my stance on Quar over again. I don't see the point and anything I say about it won't be objective.

Indulge me - in what way is it different from your scumgame?

[Pegasus30]

My suspicion came about when DrDolittle pushed AP D2 but when AP was the top wagon, he chose to vote Chamber. He even went so far as to say he wasn't "sure" about AP but gave no reason why he was certain about Chamber.

The unvote when AP declared intent to hammer probably points against a DrDolittle/AP team though.

[Pegasus30]

Just not feeling up to more analysis at this point. I glanced through Yos's scumgame but it was a really quick skim and I didn't get past much besides the initial setup spec. The similarities with Oldy Mafia are pretty striking though.

I'm voting (or hammering depending on whether anyone else votes) Chamber tomorrow and I'll work on developing further reads after seeing his flip especially considering I think there's a decent chance he's actually scum who played well D1.

[Pegasus30]

VOTE: Chamber

That is L-1. I'm quite happy to end the day so if anyone wants to hammer, feel free. Pretty confident Chamber has no intention of engaging with the game. He's had nearly a month since he first checked out in D1. He's probably just scum resigned to his fate. My reads will depend on Chamber's flip so I'll continue D4 with refining them.

[Pegasus30]

VOTE: PapaZito

I think it is fairly obvious.