Mini 1749: Classic Rock Mafia: Game Over!

[Mathilda]

Sorry Christmas was a nightmare as usual and didn't realise that the game had started. Just about to go to bed now but will catch up the game when I wake up in about 8 hours.

[Mathilda]

VOTE: Dierfire

I'm surprised to see a naked vote on page 9 when the thread has clearly progressed from RVS.

[Mathilda]

I subconciously judge based off of avatars, tbh.

That's why I changed my avatar from the last game we played together. It occurred to me that having a political figure as an avatar might attract distrust. So I've gone with the old classic of a horse in a Bavarian dress.

[Mathilda]

Well you can trust me, I'm a doctor

OK you have to know that everyone's going to notice this comment. It's too obvious for a soft claim or bread crumb and if you're townie then why would you say such a thing? Especially if you were a doctor. This is suspicious.

[Mathilda]

P-edit: You are actively not engaging in the game, while Mathilda is not around and will get replaced if it continues. That's a big difference. I have asked you a question twice and you refuse to answer. Which probably means you have no answer for it. That gives me a scumread on you.

you asked that once and he answered it BTW. he stated that he want to push Mathilda slot till he find something worth to push for. I think this is a quiet misrepresenting about what happened to make the easiest vote out of Mattp since it was getting messy there.

he did not. Pushing a slot that hasn't posted is bullshit. Stating that a non-posting slot is a worthy lynch is also bullshit.

That's because lynching a slot that has not posted generates no information at all for town. The only thing we have going for us on Day 1 is the ability to lynch, and that tells us who was opportunistic, who tried to apply pressure, who responded badly to pressure, who was hesitant about lynching. You don't get any of that information voting for someone who hasn't even shown up.

[Mathilda]

Well you can trust me, I'm a doctor

OK you have to know that everyone's going to notice this comment. It's too obvious for a soft claim or bread crumb and if you're townie then why would you say such a thing? Especially if you were a doctor. This is suspicious.

My title is "Dr. Feelgood" and my avatar is a doctor. If you're setting up a bullshit vote on me spare me with the weird justifications

Also if you really thought this why would you even bring attention to it? You just brought attention to what you believed was a soft claim

I said:

"It's too obvious for a soft claim or bread crumb and if you're townie then why would you say such a thing? Especially if you were a doctor. This is suspicious."

[Mathilda]

Mathlida, would you mind answering the question I asked in 232? It bothers me slightly that you have expressed disdain towards votes on inactive players, but not towards ABR for propagating this.

Sorry, missed that. I've been skimming the thread and trying to catch up. I'm paying more attention now.

Do you think ABR is scum-aligned because he wanted to lynch an inactive slot?

When you're scum you are wanting to be seen scum hunting and throwing shade on an inactive slot is an easy way to achieve that. But as the slot is inactive there's only so much you can bang on about the subject because no one is answering back. I think that pushing to lynch an inactive slot is a definite sign of inexperience, and although not a definite scum tell it is something to be aware of I think.

After all, would an inexperienced town player really be sure that an inactive slot is scum? If not sure then creating a lynch wagon is not going to generate any more information.

[Mathilda]

I said:

"It's too obvious for a soft claim or bread crumb and if you're townie then why would you say such a thing? Especially if you were a doctor. This is suspicious."

It's too obvious for a bread crumb but it's not too obvious for something of scum intent? Explain the distinction

Because if you really were town and a doctor bread crumbing then you would be far more cautious about saying such a thing. But as scum you can throw out those hints and make people wonder without having to back off from interrogating you.

[Mathilda]

I am not looking for Masons specifically. It was just a brain fart.

I suppose a Cop and Masons would be overkill in a game this small. But having a Miller does not guarantee that there is a Cop.

This smells fishy to me. I can't quite figure out why. It's speculation about the set-up but being cagey about being saying anything contentious that I think is setting up an alarm bell for me. And then to say that having a miller does not guarantee a cop, well, it kind of does. It would be a bastard game if it did not. If there's genuinely a miller then the mod is effectively telling us that yes there is a cop. And if there is not a cop then the mod is lying to us, hence a bastard game.

But more importantly, why is this being speculated upon?

[Mathilda]

@Mathida

Who is Mafia?

Honestly I don't really know. I'm sort of hanging back and trying to see if anything rings my scumdar but not much is. But I can give you my feels at the present moment.

MattP and Garmr are interesting to me though. I am not familiar with MattP but he seems rather cocky, which can be read as being defensive. Garmr is burrowing into him like an African parasite but is that because Garmr is town and is also suspicious of him or is it because he's a scum buddy distancing himself from MattP? I have played with Garmr before and I don't remember him like this. He was scum in Mini 1741 but the whole game was a mess with one scum outing all his buddies and the game should have been scrapped rather than played out. So it's no wonder that Garmr was less active in that game. Overall though I am getting a town vibe from Garmr.

So the only one I'm happy voting for at the moment is MattP. In fact, I think I'll do that right now.

VOTE: MattP

[Mathilda]

Anyone who thinks they're valuable as a vig either doesn't know vigs are anti-town or are completely full of themselves.

Only if you actually try killing every night. Think of it as Vanilla with a safety net. You should keep quiet about a vig role and play as if you are vanilla. And use your vig kill in the end game when you are personally pretty sure who is scum and it's looking like town is going to lose.

[Mathilda]

Anyway here is who I want lynched VOTE: Mathilda

Omgus? Or are you going to attempt an explanation? Maybe try building a case against me and give me a chance to defend myself. That doesn't help me so much as help everyone else because it generates information. If we all just vote for each other without any explanation or defence then we won't learn anything after the flip.

As it stands it looks like you've selected one person that you want rid of for whatever reason and have become fixated on achieving that.

[Mathilda]

Say you are vigilante and if you use your skill at night in the early part of the game then you are more likely to hit town than scum. Do you:

a) Not use your skill until you are sure that you are going to kill scum
b) Use your skill every night but out yourself so that you can attract the night kill.

Why would you choose b) over a) ?

[Mathilda]

its simple. town kills, then scum kill. scum will always kill town. town may kill town or scum. you add a vig and its like town gets an extra lynch. more town kills = good.

But the lynches give us information about who voted, when they voted, whether they were opportunistic or jumped off the wagon at the last moment, whether they were pointing a FoS at someone but not voting etc. This is why day one lynches are useful even though we are more likely to kill town. Vigilante kills only give us information from the flip. This is why they are anti-town.

A vigilante should avoid using their ability until they are confident of hitting scum.

[Mathilda]

[quote="In post 542, Garmr"]
Mahilda feels like scum
comparing this game to mini day 3 she plays a lot different. The way she handles her votes in that game were more care free and less cautious. The information she produced was also better quality and her opions were pushed more by her. Even through a lot of people scum read her she handled the pressure well.
=26392]here is the game
/quote]

I think the problem with this game is that I came in late and couldn't properly catch up and also another game started afterwards. That and not being bored at work where I would be constantly scrutinising every post. Whereas before I've put my name down on different threads and only hear back from one.

[Mathilda]

I'm OK with people voting for me and won't try to defend myself. I am more interested in generating information and I think that my lynch achieves that. A lynch wagon has developed quickly which suggests that some scum have jumped on it opportunistically. At the last vote count it was:

MattP, Lowell, Taly, Garmr, Albert B. Rampage

ironavp has also expressed a desire for me to be shot. So everyone that is currently voting for me, has voted for me, or wants to vote for me, I would like you to hear your defence now rather than later if I get lynched and consequently flip green. Why did you vote in the order that you did? Why exactly are you so sure that I am scum? What exactly is your case against me?

I want this explicitly stated before any flip. Feels are not enough. I always play differently to everyone else and judging me by how differently I play will always lead to a conclusion that I am scum. So what specific scum tells have I made. I want specific references to posts and quotations. I want to make sure that you will be held to account for a mis-lynch and will have to explain yourself.

[Mathilda]

Whats your read on Radja and ABR , mathilda?

Just ISO'ed them both and skimmed through their posts so these are really only impressions I get.

ABR - opportunistic fluff poster with very little content. Doesn't explain himself or add any other information unless he has to defend himself or asked for clarification.
Radja - Compared with ABR he does actually try to apply pressure to other people and scrutinise what they are saying, asking specific questions to catch them out.

Out of the two I'd put ABR as scum and Radja as town. ABR's posting style strikes me as scum trying to appear to hunt without actually sticking his head above the parapet. Radja hasn't said much either but by comparison it looks like it's because he is a cooler player observing what's going on and trying to form opinions and interjecting when he sees something that doesn't quite add up.

[Mathilda]

@Mathilda

So everyone that is currently voting for me, has voted for me, or wants to vote for me, I would like you to hear your defence now rather than later if I get lynched and consequently flip green. Why did you vote in the order that you did? Why exactly are you so sure that I am scum? What exactly is your case against me?

I'm not voting for you currently, but I'm very much considering it, especially because your vote is still on Matt when it's fairly clear that he should not be lynched today.
You expressed suspicion of ABR. Is that enough suspicion for a vote?

You're right. I realised after making my last post that there is plenty of time to test whether MattP is a vigilante or not by whether we get two night kills.

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

[Mathilda]

I can devote more time to this game now I'm back in my usual routine.

I like AJ the epic's posts. He seems to be trying to figure things out. I don't see the case on FrozenAngel or Dierfire. All of them and Garmr ring town to me. The only thing against Dierfire is that he's less active than usual but the same can be said for most of us, including me, because of the Christmas period.

Sorry to hear about your apartment being flooded Firebringer, do you live in the UK? There's a lot of flooding going on here at the moment.

Albert still pings my scumdar I'm afraid. He seems too keen to cast shade and not willing to admit to any uncertainty. While town can do this as well, it does tie in with scum's motivation to cause a mislynch and to capitalise on whatever dirt they can find on someone. Albert is definitely misrepresenting people. This puts other players on the defensive and makes them look scummy as a result. I don't think Albert and Frozen Angel are scum buddies bussing one another.

[Mathilda]

There were quite a few people I did not mention. I did think of you but decided that I needed to go over your posts again before commenting. After all, not being able to back up what you say is a bigger sin in this game.

The reason for your vote on me looks opportunistic and contrived though. It's exactly this kind of reaction that I look out for. I'm now more sure of reading you as scum.

If I wasn't already voting for Albert I'd vote for you.

[Mathilda]

AI vote for Mathilda instead of threatening to quickhammer.

Who said anything about quickhammering? When I hammer, I will explain myself and state my intent to do so.

On reflection this makes it look more likely that you are both scum trying to distance yourselves from each other while at the same time looking like you are both scum hunting. But also being careful to not really point out anything suspicious enough that could make others think that it's worthwhile lynching either of you.

[Mathilda]

AI vote for Mathilda instead of threatening to quickhammer.

... and as if by magic the pseudo spat between Albert and AI since this post is forgotten and they've both joined the same lynch wagon while seeming like they arrived there independently.

[Mathilda]

And what will you and Albert say when you find out that I am town?

[Mathilda]

And what will you and Albert say when you find out that I am town?

If you are town, then you might want to tell me why you think we shouldn't be lynching Dierfire.

That deliberately avoided my question.

But to answer yours, I don't see any reason to suspect Dierfire. The onus is on you to back up your claim that he is scum.

[Mathilda]

And what will you and Albert say when you find out that I am town?

If you are town, then you might want to tell me why you think we shouldn't be lynching Dierfire.

That deliberately avoided my question.

I assumed it was a rhetorical question, because what am I supposed to say if I am wrong?

Would you be happy with that response from someone else who had voted for someone who had flipped town? No, of course not. Will you refuse to defend your vote tomorrow if I get lynched? No, of course not. So why can't you answer now?

But to answer yours, I don't see any reason to suspect Dierfire. The onus is on you to back up your claim that he is scum.

1. Dierfire white knighting MattP: #130.
2. PoE.
3. Lots of off-topic comments.

1) Please explain in more detail how #130 is Dierfire whiteknighting MattP.

2) Process of Elimination? It's meaningless to give that as a reason without also explaining why everyone else is town. It's just a way of pretending to justify your position without committing yourself and having to defend your rationalisation.

3) And is Dierfire the only one on this thread to have made off-topic comments? I've seen plenty of people on other threads do that before without being considered scum.

This looks like you have chosen Dierfire as an easy target because he has been distracted recently.

[Mathilda]

I assumed it was a rhetorical question, because what am I supposed to say if I am wrong?

And how are you planning on defending yourself when I flip town?

[Mathilda]

You won't flip town, I'm banking on it.

[Mathilda]

OK let's put it another way Albert, you're so sure on Day 1 when town has no information to go on, how will you be expecting people to listen to your opinions in the next day phases when you don't ever consider that you may be wrong?

[Mathilda]

Would you be happy with that response from someone else who had voted for someone who had flipped town? No, of course not. Will you refuse to defend your vote tomorrow if I get lynched? No, of course not. So why can't you answer now?

oh noes mathilda flipped town, ther was no wai to no, she was sooo scummiz why did we hammers her so much regretful votes was good but wrong perps was deed

^ what would happen if the mod sent you a new role pm mid-game that said town on it.

What I am trying to do is to hold people to account while I still can. The thread gets locked at night and lots more information gets posted the next day. This gives scum the advantage that they can keep their heads low and avoid too much attention. My role as vanilla is to generate information for town, and this is what I am currently trying to do.

[Mathilda]

I'm OK with people voting for me and won't try to defend myself. I am more interested in generating information and I think that my lynch achieves that. A lynch wagon has developed quickly which suggests that some scum have jumped on it opportunistically. At the last vote count it was:

MattP, Lowell, Taly, Garmr, Albert B. Rampage

ironavp has also expressed a desire for me to be shot. So everyone that is currently voting for me, has voted for me, or wants to vote for me, I would like you to hear your defence now rather than later if I get lynched and consequently flip green. Why did you vote in the order that you did? Why exactly are you so sure that I am scum? What exactly is your case against me?

I want this explicitly stated before any flip. Feels are not enough. I always play differently to everyone else and judging me by how differently I play will always lead to a conclusion that I am scum. So what specific scum tells have I made. I want specific references to posts and quotations. I want to make sure that you will be held to account for a mis-lynch and will have to explain yourself.

I see no one on my lynch wagon has responded to my request for a solid case being put against me.

[Mathilda]

Unvote

Will revote when I'm ready. Going to bed now.

I don't know why you are unvoting.

[Mathilda]

What I find odd is AlwaysInnocent's motives for the following response to Firebringer. Why do this if you are town?

The scum radiation of Mathilda is starting to reach the boundaries of the universe.

Posts like this are really odd.

Yeah, and you are filling Dwlee's scum slot, right?

Yeah, and you are filling Dwlee's scum slot, right?

Your point?

So you agree.

[Mathilda]

By odd of course I mean suspicious.

[Mathilda]

Mathilda still looks like scum. Her defenses do not impress.

That's because I am not defending myself.

I'm OK with people voting for me and won't try to defend myself. I am more interested in generating information and I think that my lynch achieves that.

I am interested in why Albert has unvoted me if he's only going to revote for me later on and is so sure that I am scum. That looks really suspicious to me. It looks like he's worried about how he looks after the flip because he knows that I am town. Either he's repositioning himself on the lynch wagon or hoping that someone else will lynch me for him. Maybe this lynch bait isn't the opportunity that it first appeared.

[Mathilda]

That's because I am not defending myself.

why?!

if your town show us your town

Well for a start no one has stated a proper case against me so there is nothing to counter. I have tried now to get people to lay out a case as to why they think I am scum. The best I can get are vague reasons without any references to specific posts. That's ideal scum play, to throw shade on people without committing yourself or letting the accused defend themselves. Even better if you can avoid being on the final wagon, like Albert has just done.

So what I am doing is trying to get people to account for themselves today rather than let it all be forgotten in several days time.

If I defend myself then I'm on the defensive. Chances are that Day 1 lynches will always be mislynches. Their value is in the information it generates. I'm vanilla and my role is to generate information for town. Normally that means full-on scum hunting and sticking my neck above the parapet. But I've come to expect a wagon to form on me on Day 1 so I figured it's easier to let the scum come to me so I can see who is opportunistic, who is questioning themselves, who is only interested in casting shade etc.

That doesn't mean to say that all the scum will be on the wagon, but a good proportion of them will be.

[Mathilda]

What is your case on Albert B?

I first started engaging with Albert in #496 regarding how a vigilante should play considering that MattP had claimed. His response was that Vigilante should kill because of the information gained from the flip alone #497 even though vigilante is considered an anti-town role because of the high chance that it will just aid scum in winning.

I pointed out in #498 that a vigilante kill gives town no extra information, unlike a lynch, but he came up with a hockey analogy #499 and did not address the role of information. Information is a resource in Hockey. It is in Mafia. He's encouraging pro-scum play from an anti-town role.


Incidentally Lowell agrees with ABR #503 and voted for me as a result. This makes me suspicious of Lowell as well. AlwaysInnocent is also advocating a vig kill on Night 1 when there is very little information to go on #506


Albert then votes for me without any explanation. This does not give me a chance to defend myself because he hasn't explained why he is voting for me and why Radja is no longer worthy of his vote. Albert's vote is opportunistic because there is already a wagon developing on me (MattP, Lowell, Taly).

Radja is a waste of time. Vote Mathilda.

MattP actually asks him in #545 why voting radja is a waste of time.

His response is that he won't manage a vote on Radja #549. But he doesn't explain why he thinks that I am just as likely to be scum as Radja. Or is it that he just wants a lynch and doesn't care who? If he genuinely thinks that Radja is scum then why not continue voting for him?


In #596 I responded to Frozen Angel's questions regarding Radja and ABR. After ISOing ABR I got the following impression at that point:

ABR - opportunistic fluff poster with very little content. Doesn't explain himself or add any other information unless he has to defend himself or asked for clarification.

I voted for Albert in #608.

Albert then voted for me again #683 without any explanation. How does this help town if he doesn't explain himself? Is he wanting to achieve a correct lynch or a mislynch? Again he only explains himself when asked (by AI #684) The explanation is the same as the one he gave for not lynching Radja.

Nobody supports an FA lynch. Mathilda is the next best thing.

How does he rate Frozen Angel, Radja or myself in terms of scum? Does he actually care? No one knows. Evidence suggests that he does not. This was before AJ the Epic replaced Radja #696


Albert then encourages people to vote for me without any explanation as to why they should #714. Again, even if I was scum, how would that be helpful to town? He misrepresents AI in encouraging him to vote for me but still does not explain why anyone should #732

Compare this to my explanation as to why I am suspicious of Albert and comparing him to other players. This is useful for other town players to judge for themselves whether Albert is scum.

Albert still pings my scumdar I'm afraid. He seems too keen to cast shade and not willing to admit to any uncertainty. While town can do this as well, it does tie in with scum's motivation to cause a mislynch and to capitalise on whatever dirt they can find on someone. Albert is definitely misrepresenting people. This puts other players on the defensive and makes them look scummy as a result. I don't think Albert and Frozen Angel are scum buddies bussing one another.

Lastly, I tried to get Albert to account for his lynch on me while I am still alive #747 After some sarcasm he does this:

Unvote

Will revote when I'm ready. Going to bed now.

Why? No explanation. Was he convinced by what I said? I wasn't even defending myself so how could he change his mind about me after being so sure that I am scum? #748 #758

[Mathilda]

unvote

We have 3 days this isn't the time to be pulling this shit.

3 days isn't enough to reconsider for a moment?

Sounds like someone frustrated that a mislynch was cancelled at the last moment.

[Mathilda]

Newbie 681, my first game here. We were discussing how my VT claim meant that the scum would have less NK targets for PR hunting.

There's a huge flaw in your argument MM... I would only be giving the scum less targets if I wasn't scum in the first place!

And then:

EBWOP: I misworded a bit. What I meant to say was:
I would only be giving the scum less targets if I wasn't a townie.

I'm not scum.

3rd time is the charm:

Oops, misworded again.
I. WOULD. ONLY. BE. GIVING. THE. SCUM. LESS. TARGETS. IF. I. WAS. A. TOWNIE.

OK, I got it.

I actually was a VT in the game, and MM (MiteyMouse) was Mafia.

Just saying, people accidentally use incorrect alignment identifiers and its not a scumslip. I've seen it happen in multiple games and I've never seen the person end up being scumy after that argument was used on them. Not that it can't happen, but it's not damning. People type fast

Fewer. Not less.

[Mathilda]

And town ALWAYS get cold feet right before deadlines - it's called self doubt. I can't believe I even need to bring that up, you thinking it's scummy to doubt a lynch close to deadline is ridiculous given your join date.

Exactly. And I've been pointing out the people voting for me who are not displaying any self doubt. Albert in particular.

I hope you all make good use of my lynch.

[Mathilda]

If anyone other than Mathilda or Fire dies today it's going to be suspicious as shit.

Like HA, you basically just told me I need to vote one of two players

That's scummy enough, but it's mindblowing considering I've claimed vig that you would try to dominate my opinion this way when it's pretty high probability that I'm town

And even if you thought I could be an SK, if I was an SK I would obviously scumhunt because I would want you to think I'm vig

For the record I now believe that you are town.

[Mathilda]

Town:

Frozen Angel
Dierfire
iraonavp
MattP

Scum:

Lowell
Albert B. Rampage

Scum leaning (in order of scumminess):

AlwaysInnocent
Garmr

Neutral:

AJ the Epiic / Radja
Firebringer / Dwlee99
Aeronaut
Taly

[Mathilda]

Mathilda, I like your play, even though you are scum. Your posts are intelligent. You make a lot of use of references. Just to be sure, I checked one of your scum games, and saw that you play highly rational as scum, too. This makes you extremely dangerous. You must understand why I cannot allow you to live.

Anyway, I hope to be playing more games with you in the future.

Thank you for your kind words.

[Mathilda]

Out of interest, am I allowed to say anything now that I have been hammered?

[Mathilda]

. If mathilda flips scum I'm going to 100% attack ABR tomorrow. If not AI and lowell seems a good place to doubt.

So as far as you're concerned, the interaction between me and ABR is either TvT or SvS?

Couldn't it be TvS?

[Mathilda]

If not AI and lowell seems a good place to doubt.

sorry meant AI and Ira

This slip and the reluctance to attack Albert, and the fact that someone needed to be change their position to hammer me is making me wonder whether the scum team is actually Frozen, Lowell and Albert. I've been wondering recently if I am wrong about AI being scum.

[Mathilda]

Your questions on him and the way he wagoned you when he couldn't convince people that "I slipped" makes me think its not TvS

How so?

[Mathilda]

"this slip" ?!!! I just mistaken two names in my read list when I posted it first ......


Bloody hell wtf is wrong in this game...

Well for a start I just got lynched

I'm wondering whether you are scum and were thinking about who your scum buddies are when you dropped Lowell's name and accidentally typed it in. It's an easy mistake to make.

[Mathilda]

And FB claiming scum is not scummy to you ...

I've never quite understood this idea that scum have this barely repressed compulsion to admit their sins. When I play scum I'm really paranoid about ever saying anything scummy and have to force myself to post.

[Mathilda]

@Mathilda,
FTR, a FA/Lowell scumteam would kill you all. Alas, it is not to be. I'll take any of this seriously when I see a flip.

Ahh ego ... the downfall of many.

[Mathilda]

are you fucking joking me... I just mistaken the one who defended you with someone else....


How is this shit can be considered as a slip? FB claimed scum!

If you are town and I am scum then why are you reacting so badly? Why aren't you sitting here merrily thinking that you are assuming twilight WIFOM like AI is.

But if you are scum then you know that I am town and will soon flip green. I also have nothing to lose because I have already been hammered.

Please explain why Firebringer would claim scum if he actually is scum.

[Mathilda]

Sorry meant to say 'watching' not 'assuming'.

[Mathilda]

don't like the explain it whole again.

You're the one who brought up the subject.

And FB claiming scum is not scummy to you ...