***Mini Normal 1744 - Country Music Mafia - Game Over***

[acryon]

ITS NOT INCREDIBLY LIKELY. its just as probable as for any other two pairs.

It is not. If we are looking at just the set of people we have with 0 information, then of course it's the same, but this isn't just a statistic game and you know that. You have both done things that are actively anti-town, but your responses in general have been worse and there is less damage if we are wrong about you, so it goes to you.

This is scum. VOTE: Acryon

I really can't see you as town. your reason for this is "WE have no information about others so scum must be between you two" Whats the meaning of scum hunting then?

Where are you getting this quote from? That's not even close to the spirit of what I said, much less the quote.

why my response in general was been worse? why you think lynching someone you say its a probable mis lynch is "less damage" and therefor justified?

I certainly never said you were a probable mislynch. In fact quite the opposite I think you are a probable scum lynch, as I've made mention of numerous times.

if you want to lynch me you need better reasons than those two you already provided. the fact you can't even think about finding scum and just want to lynch between me and RC is another thing I must add to your scum case.

Are you kidding? So you are adding to my scum case the fact that I "can't even think about finding scum" because I want to lynch between two people who I think at least one of is scum?

[acryon]

- you said its not a static game and you have less information about others so you think one of us must be scum because of that.

I did not say this. Please re-read what I said.

The rest I have responded to many times, so I won't bother again. Not interested in another MeVFA wall-off.

[acryon]

and whats your current read on RP ?

I'll answer your questions that aren't just repeating. My current read on RP is unsure. Hasn't been much from him today.

[acryon]

Like I said before FA, I simply can't accept that you softclaimed because you were drunk. If that were true, then it's essentially you playing against your wincon (sober or not) and this game is screwed anyway. So my only choice is to ignore that point on principle, and move forward with what we have, which I believe points to you being scum.

[acryon]

Like I said before FA, I simply can't accept that you softclaimed because you were drunk. If that were true, then it's essentially you playing against your wincon (sober or not) and this game is screwed anyway. So my only choice is to ignore that point on principle, and move forward with what we have, which I believe points to you being scum.

THE FU.. THIS IS POLICY LYNCHING. I really don't care to be lynched today because I screwed it up. BUT I'm concerned why your not calling it a policy lynch.

I DID SOMETHING THAT I'M ASHAMED OF RIGHT NOW. you want to do your shit? do it! I really don't care.

I'm not lynching you based on policy. I am disbelieving your drunk claim based on my own policy, and in disbelieving that, the remaining information leads me to want to lynch you. There's a big difference there.

[acryon]

If people are just saying and doing whatever when they are drunk, do you not see how that destroys the whole purpose of the game? How can you read anyone if that is a viable excuse?

[acryon]

I am confused as to why Acryon is fine with RC's fake claim, but FA must die and he has no responsibility for her death (as he clearly tells us). That's not inconsistent, that's bipolar.

Who said I was fine with RC's fakeclaim? And also when did I claim I would have no responsibility for her death? Nice try though.

[acryon]

Okay, lets walk through. Aesthetic means you can't be targeted by the town doctor or the town roleblocker. Correct? The roleblocker is meaningless for a town ascetic. The doctor is very meaningful - except that RC is bulletproof. So he doesn't need a doctor. Would you ever put an ascetic bulletproof in a game with a town doctor? I mean, ascetic bulletproof is bad enough, but with a town doctor and roleblocker? It literally doesn't make any sense. Nor can we claim mod WIFOM, this isn't some theme bullshit or mini queue experimental, at least four people have to have looked at "town doctor + bulletproof town ascetic" and said "yep, that seems great".

On the other hand, ascetic scum to counter town roleblocker? Oh, that makes so very much sense. So very, very, very much sense.

Vote: RC

Try not claiming scum next scum game.

I think I'm actually on board with this.

[acryon]

Holding my vote because I don't want to put RC to L-1.

[acryon]

Holding my vote because I don't want to put RC to L-1.

Last time I checked 5 votes wasn't L-1 here.

Well you are incorrect, because it takes 6 to lynch so 5 is L-1.

[acryon]

@Rp I really cant see myself arguing with this. I will vote if Acryon answers why not L1 ...

@MM you said X was my scum slip. I said I meant Y and Y is not a scum slip. your just playing with my vocab to show that as X but its not and I really can't see X as a scum slip specially if it means the same as Y!

so lets stop playing with this bullshit.

tell me what was the exact scum slip and I will gladly answer it again.

@Acryon why not L1 ?

Because I would rather wait until everyone has a chance to say their piece before I set someon to L-1, especially with RC's D1 quickhammer.

[acryon]

Holding my vote because I don't want to put RC to L-1.

Last time I checked 5 votes wasn't L-1 here.

Well you are incorrect, because it takes 6 to lynch so 5 is L-1.

ok, sorry. was thinking of another game.

I realize now that my post came off rude, and that wasn't my intent!

[acryon]

VOTE: RC

I wanted to hear Acryon's reason and I can't accept that.

Its his wagon. you think he will quick hammer? or anyone else will lol-hammer? so what? he already role claimed. others have time to speak.

I think he could quickhammer (as town).

[acryon]

quick hammer himself?!!! if he is town ?!

I don't .

I have seen town quickhammer themselves in frustration, and RC has already proven he is not afraid to quickhammer.

[acryon]

If RC hammers, we got scum and reduced noise.

Just because a day is X hours long, doesn't mean we need to use it.

I'm not saying we need to use it, but I want to make sure everyone gets a chance to say something.

[acryon]

RC is not that kind of players. he has no hesitation in quick hammering others. but he won't quick hammer himself if he is town and he can get out of this mess.

How many games have you played with him? You're talking like your his IRL best friend.

[acryon]

Something to keep in mind for future days that I want to get out in case I die tonight: feel free to look at FrozenAngel's sitewide post history around the time she was "drunk enough to accidentally softclaim" and you may find some things that would indicate she was quite lucid and in control.

[acryon]

@Mod: I know we discussed this, but feel free to remove my last post if it's toeing the line too much.

[acryon]

@Mod: I will be V/LA until 1/4. I will certainly try to stay as active as possible and will definitely check in as I can, but no promises of activity like I've had.

[acryon]

wow ok.
i'm still shocked that we had a townie that decided that it was a good idea to fakeclaim a result, retract your real role, then fakeclaim once more AND didn't know the difference between a game that lasts twenty minutes and one that lasts two months.

golden is still a decent vote. not confident on arc!scum at all. the case is "he believed LaL" when his brain was likely just wired to think that way.

To be clear, I never endorsed LaL nor did I vote for anyone for that reason.

To all - anyone who is saying anything about me being scum can just shut up. I've done enough listening to nonsense back and forth from terrible townies not listening to what I have to say, including lynching two valuable townies when I said to not lynch the former and to wait on lynching the latter until we could hear more. If we would have actually waited, maybe we would have heard the full claim. I am not even going to entertain or attempt to defend myself today because frankly you have to be out of your mind to connect the dots to me being scum at this point.

We are mostly screwed at this point anyway, but today is hopefully going to consist of: FA not talking because she is killing town if she is town and us lynching Mario.

Roleplay.
Why did you get replaced.
You were the only bit of sanity in this whole game of illogical madness.

What part of his game was sanity?

VOTE: MarioManiac4

[acryon]

Also no one should feel bad for

voting

RC because his fakeclaim and subsequent actual claim were very stupid and were obviously going to draw a ton of suspicion. However, we

should

feel bad for hammering RC without him getting his final words. Stupid, stupid play.

[acryon]

Your seriously trying so hard to make them ignore me don't you?

after this I'm nearly sure about a MM-Acryon scum team.

Yes I am because a lot of your nonsense has killed this town, regardless of alignment. At a minimum, you have provided a pile of noise that makes it easy for scum to stay hush and impossible for town to sift.

[acryon]

I think that the argument that fa is making a smokescreen is a bad argument because I played in a game where a townie got accused of the same thing.
Acryon, explain your mm read. Or are you just sheeping rc?

Which is why I said regardless of alignment.

We'll talk about MM maybe tomorrow.

[acryon]

UNVOTE: itlepip
VOTE: Malakittens

While I think that itlepip is still the best lynch choice for today given what we know thus far, I really think that we need to start getting the lurkers involved. We're one mislynch away from LYLO and it's ridiculous that we have some players that have lurked through this game without contributing much of anything. Mala's slot is at the top of that list (both she and her replacement were the lurkiest lurkers of the game). However, TheCow and golden get special mention for not even posting in the last 7 and 8 days, respectively.

Every active player that has been lynched thus far as been town. This suggests to me that some of the lurkers are likely scum. This would help explain why town has been derping so hard, it's easy to derp when most/all of the game has been TvT.

Lurkers, you are on notice: you need to contribute to this game. Do something useful.

This doesn't suggest that some of the lurkers are scum. It just as easily suggests that the scum want to eliminate those contributing and leave those that are lurking. Although I do agree that many of the remaining players really need to start participating if we want to have any small chance at winning.

VOTE Acryon. IF HE wasn't scum I won't play mafia ever ever again.

HE IS 200% Mafia

Sorry to see you leave the site.

I'm obvtown lynchbait. Please no.

The only reason you would be lynchbait is that you have made yourself lynchbait by not doing anything. Contribute. Give me a reads list as it stands right now. No nulls.

@acryon

: What changed your mind about FA/RolePlay in Day 2 and 3, such that you'd rather go after MM than either of them? Also, why were you so ready to accept that FA's vanilla town claim was more believable than her "I have a role but I'm not hard claiming it" story?

Nothing changed my mind about them really, but I understand the push on FA especially is a hard sell. The problem I am now seeing is her crazy push on me. It is just so boneheaded that it is very hard to believe it's made up. I think RP may very likely be scum, but I do think it's in our best interests to push MM first. We have time so we can take a look at our available options.

To be frank, I think this game is near unwinnable for town. A townie quickhammers a PR D1, then scum randomly gets a second PR, then another PR does a weird gambit and gets himself lynched and then on top of that he only got a green check in a game where it seems quite possible the scum have a godfather. A good bit of the deck being stacked against us and town being stupid. All that being said, I can understand the frustration and disinterest of town at this point, but we need participation if we want

any

chance.

@Mod:

Could we possibly get an extension? I think the lack of posting makes it evident how much this day has been effected by the holidays, and we have New Years coming up as well.

[acryon]

Just addressing BJI at the moment since I only have a minute and wanted to clear things up. FWIW, I think you are town, but my point (and a point RC made) was that we can't actually trust a cop green check since godfathers are a thing, and esepcially given all of the PRs we have already seen flip for town, it's fairly likely the scum have a gf.

[acryon]

Just checking in to say I am back from V/LA. Holy replacements. I will answer any questions that were directed at me today given we have new people and then I will give some other comments later.

[acryon]

@Acryon

Please explain why you think Mario is scum and when you came to this conclusion.
Also I'd like to know what your read on Golden is, and how it has evolved over time.

To be honest I don't have a great case on Mario, which is why it was my plan to just put a vote out there and see what happens. Unfortunately I was unable to be active much at all during my V/LA, so I was hoping I could push it to see what comes out but it didn't do much.

Regarding golden, I thought he was scummy D1, then he pretty much disappeared for most of the rest of the game as far as I recall so my read on him kind of did too. Especially in this game with the number of lurkers and replacement we have had, it doesn't make sense to go after them because we could easily lynch them all and not even get one scum.

[acryon]

@Marcrell: Why in the world would you be ok with a lurker lynch today when we have one more mislynch before lylo?

[acryon]

@Acryon:

Can you maybe explain why you're not scum reading FA anymore? She is right in that you have definitely slung alot of mud her way over the course of Day 1 and Day 2, and you did say at one point that you thought either RC or FA was scum. Well we know RC was not scum. So why aren't you voting FA now?

I do want to be clear that I'm not not scum reading FA anymore. But it's abundantly clear that her extremely poor play has led people to believe she is town, and it's kind of tough to argue against hanlon's razor.

Okay, so where do you want to go today in terms of the lynch?

To be honest I don't feel anywhere near as confident that a lynch today will get scum as I would like to be on D3, but it seems like it's probably best if we go Marcrell today. I agree with BJI. The slot did nothing before and has done nothing now. First idea is "Hey guys I know we only have two mislynches left before town loses, but let's go ahead and lynch a lurker, and hey it would save Jake time finding a replacement too"

[acryon]

@acryon

, I'm not sure I follow the idea behind your Mario vote earlier. So far as I can see there are two possibilities:

1) nobody's interested in a vote without much of a case, you don't learn much
2) people get excited about a Mario wagon and you have to explain why, after having made a statement this certain:

...
We are mostly screwed at this point anyway, but today is hopefully going to consist of: FA not talking because she is killing town if she is town and us lynching Mario.
...

there isn't a good case to back it up.

Am I missing something?

I wouldn't say you're missing something. It was a quick post I did in the morning while on vacation, so I didn't really have much time to think things through. Just very frustrated by the flips so I sheeped RC since that seemed like a good place to start. I'm not going to defend it as a great post or idea, because it wasn't.

[acryon]

This game is just stalling so much because of the lack of a replacement for golden.

This is true. He actually never posted even once D3, so we have been without a person the entire time.

[acryon]

Welp at least we have no deadline because of it lmao

Hey dwlee, a couple questions for you:

1) Why are you not voting Mario? You seemed content with sheeping RC earlier, but now you've sort of drifted off of it?

2) You talked about how this game is stalling more than once, yet the majority of your posts seem to be sheeping others and talking about how you're confused. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. You've talked about how town RP was. What do you think about Aqua so far?

3) Have you actually been trying to scumhunt? If you think so, give me a few examples.

[acryon]

Welp at least we have no deadline because of it lmao

Hey dwlee, a couple questions for you:

1) Why are you not voting Mario? You seemed content with sheeping RC earlier, but now you've sort of drifted off of it?

2) You talked about how this game is stalling more than once, yet the majority of your posts seem to be sheeping others and talking about how you're confused. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. You've talked about how town RP was. What do you think about Aqua so far?

3) Have you actually been trying to scumhunt? If you think so, give me a few examples.

Mario agrees w/ me on cow's slot being scummy af.
I think aqua is really townie. Theor posts feel really genuine and they want to get reads.
Yea I have been scumhunting. I probably should reread or something though so I can refresh my minds on some slots because I am having massive brainfarts rn.

So because MM agrees with you on one slot, he is town? Do you not consider that A) Cow could still be town and that B) Scum vote for scum all the time? That is a horrible reason to be ok with Mario.

[acryon]

I can determine if it is a bus tomorrow.

Sorry but that is still some really bad reasoning. You don't give people townpoints for agreeing with you, especially when we don't have a single scum flip to work from.

[acryon]

I will show bad play after acryon flip.

MM and cow slot are likely the other scums. or it can be you bji. Dweele and RP slot are town.

I'll humor you FA. Why are Dwlee and RP town?

[acryon]

I will show bad play after acryon flip.

MM and cow slot are likely the other scums. or it can be you bji. Dweele and RP slot are town.

I'll humor you FA. Why are Dwlee and RP town?

becuase you are definetly scum

and I know its not the way dweele playing scum

and RP was obviously town in day 1 and in day 2

How do you know the way dwlee plays scum? Considering dwlee had to ask you to link games of yours to him, I'm guessing it's not much.

[acryon]

I'm actually really interested to hear the reply from FA. My thirst for FA scum-blood has just been revitalized.

[acryon]

How do you know the way dwlee plays scum? Considering dwlee had to ask you to link games of yours to him, I'm guessing it's not much.

I can't talk about it. sorry. I might reveal info about ongoing games.

count that a gut read.

And a bad one. Meta is a bad argument already and is especially bad if its based on such a small sample.

[acryon]

Can someone help me out by pointing me to what FA has actually done this game outside of acting defensive, fakeclaiming and pushing me? Can someone point me to her scumhunting?

[acryon]

OKAY

IMM

OFF

TODAY

AND DWLEE AND FA ARE TOWN

I sincerely hope that means we will get some more in-depth commentary from you, because coming in and saying two people are town (especially two that have done close to nothing for the game in terms of scumhunting) doesn't sit well with me.

[acryon]

Can you link me to your case, fa? I want to read it again.

I promise you don't.

[acryon]

yes totally!


and he just wagoned me in day 1 based on bji's conspiracy theory and today he suddenly stopped scumreading me until he asked for it and he started pushing at me a bit later than that.

When did I ever stop scumreading you? Unlike you, I understand when a tunnel is bad for town and look at others. There is more than one scum in this game. Your nonsensical pushing with no results ruined a lot of D2 and currently a lot of D3.

this may be a double post

...

I sincerely hope that means we will get some more in-depth commentary from you, because coming in and saying two people are town (especially two that have done close to nothing for the game in terms of scumhunting) doesn't sit well with me.

@Acryon

: Which slots look better to you [than Frozen Angel and Dwlee] in terms of scumhunting?

BJI, your slot, maybe Mario since he has at least asked questions (although the jury is still out on him).

[acryon]

No! But your not acting like town!

He is scum so if your town you Must vote him to play toward your wincon. unless your not town! which we must reanalize that later ...

Are you kidding me? It's only playing against his wincon if he thinks I'm scum and doesn't vote for me. Do you truly believe anyone is going to follow along with this nonsense? Please move on from this and do some other scumhunting if you are town.

[acryon]

Are you kidding me? It's only playing against his wincon if he thinks I'm scum and doesn't vote for me. Do you truly believe anyone is going to follow along with this nonsense? Please move on from this and do some other scumhunting if you are town.

Your scum! don't be silly

and I did other scum hunting

pedit : but there is no world in which arc is town! But.You.Do!

Do you really not see how the way you are playing and tunneling on me is anti-town? Multiple pages and countless posts of your's have been wasted spouting things that are misinformed, ignorant, or even patently false. Instead of being able to read the game, people are forced to read your drivel. I don't actually care if you think I am scum, but filling up the thread with your terrible arguments does nothing but make it easier for scum to hide.

[acryon]

Do you really not see how the way you are playing and tunneling on me is anti-town? Multiple pages and countless posts of your's have been wasted spouting things that are misinformed, ignorant, or even patently false. Instead of being able to read the game, people are forced to read your drivel. I don't actually care if you think I am scum, but filling up the thread with your terrible arguments does nothing but make it easier for scum to hide.

See ?! The point is I was never been sure about my read ever! Multiple pages and countless (which are countable btw, go work on your math) are me trying to show evidence of you being scum and everyone just ignored them. I'm asking town To grant me 1 favor and lynch you with me. And your scum. you must care to be lynched Don't pretend otherwise!

"I'm just asking town to grant me 1 favor and lynch you" Are you kidding? Not only is that an absurd request, but you are certainly one of the least credible players in this game (and well-deserved due to your fake-claim and other things).

Like, I just don't understand this. You can't possibly be town, but at the same time, how can scum possibly play this foolishly? Are you good enough at scum to play dumb?

[acryon]

Ok lynch me then lynch acryon I don't care and I really don't like to be the lylo mislynch

my reads after him are

MM
Marcell
BJI

in this order. I guarantee aqua and dweelle are town and mala seems like town

VOTE: Frozen Angel This will help town I guess

Stop. If you are town, then self-voting is completely anti-town.

[acryon]

If it will help town to win its not

It will not help town unless you are scum.

1. Unless I am confirmed scum (hint: I'm not), then FA into Acryon lynch loses us the game if we are both town.

2. No one is going to agree to that deal anyway.

[acryon]

I have never been more confused in my playing time on MS.

[acryon]

I don't see a world in which town has any chance of winning this game if FA is town.

[acryon]

@Frozen Angel

: Back off for a while, okay? I'm going to have a talk with these two.

@Acryon, MarioManiac

: Please sum up your read on Frozen Angel in three sentences or less. I am not interested in your opinion of Frozen as a player, I am interested in your opinion about her alignment.

1. The "soft-claim". She was hoping she would be left alone on it, but I pushed and she had to give it up.
2. She then claims she was drunk, even though her play and posting style seemed the same as how she normally posts.
3. She talked a lot about a me/supercool scumteam on D1 for why she thought I was scum. Then SC flips town and all of a sudden our association wasnt a big part. She was telling people to look at our interactions for a reason to vote me, so clearly this isn't true.
4. She has misrepresented me on multiple occasions, saying the only reason I wanted to lynch her was based on policy, saying I am trying for a mislynch, etc.
5. While this isn't necessarily indicative of scum, the way she has tunneled and misdirected this game has been terrible for town and has made things much easier for scum.
6. Speaks about players as if she knows how they play (did this with RC and with dwlee), but with no real reasoning for calling them town otherwise.

I wrote all of this and then read the three sentences or less part. I am sorry.

[acryon]

I mean I feel like it's quite clear from that list what my read is. She's scum. The only thing that makes me feel otherwise is that it seems almost impossible to be

so

anti-town even as scum, but that's not a good enough reason to make me change my mind.

[acryon]

I agree with others that FA's play is hard to categorize. Her play seems sincere (town) but is also combative and nonproductive (anti-town). On the whole though although I have had reservations about particular actions (interactions with RolePlay slot and fake claiming), I have a town read on her.

yeah my play is completly toward my town wincon. thx for criticizing.

Acryon is scum so we lynch him

If I'm going to be lylo mislynch just finish me off.

its 1 v 1

My entire post, and all you care about is what I had to say about you? Is this game just an ego stroking opportunity for you or something? Do you have ANY thoughts WHATSOEVER on any part of this game that has not involved direct interaction with you?

This is another reason why I am inclined to lynch FA. IF FA is town, then town has 0 chance of winning with her + the lurkers anyway, and I would never forgive myself if I let myself lose to FA-scum after all she's done this game. So the best case scenario is she is scum and the worst case is that contributing townies can write this game off anyways.

[acryon]

No I read that wholesome. I commented about what was important.

pedit : lol. no not at all. I'm gonna troll this shit till I get confirmation with your flip. I know your scum mate. stop it.

Here you are even admitting a willingness to play anti-town. So there are two possiblities, like I said: you are scum, or you are town playing against your win-con, and town can't win with those anyway.

[acryon]

Please guys can we just hang FA. There's a decent chance of scum (I believe it's quite high, although I feel others have to admit it's at least decent), and if she's not, we at least have a much easier time scumhunting for our few days of LyLo.

[acryon]

Please guys can we just hang FA. There's a decent chance of scum (I believe it's quite high, although I feel others have to admit it's at least decent), and if she's not, we at least have a much easier time scumhunting for our few days of LyLo.

you mean much more chance to mislynch someone? like dweele? or mala? or cow(if your mate is bji) ?

nah I think not

I'm happy with a today lynch on me. just to avoid getting mis lynched in lylo but if town promise me to look over your ISO and my points about you.

Town wouldn't be ok with a lynch on town ever, especially at this point. Let's lynch this guys.

[acryon]

so you say I'm scum and I'm asking to hang myself pretty much like me

Do I really have to explain why that's not a valid defense? "Oh hey guys I'm willing to lynch myself I can't be scum!"

[acryon]

I actually didn't realize my vote wasn't on you yet.

VOTE: Frozen Angel

There.

[acryon]

You never accept being lynched as town. It makes no sense and it's playing against your win-con. This is common sense in the game of mafia. "I'm the perfect LyLo bait so I'm going to self-vote and have you guys lynch me now". Please read that and tell me how it's not insane.

[acryon]

Town: please stop writing off this nonsense as town. Emotion and foolish play do not equal town. Let's stop giving FA a pass for her anti-town play just because she's emotional.

[acryon]

Please guys can we just hang FA. There's a decent chance of scum (I believe it's quite high, although I feel others have to admit it's at least decent), and if she's not, we at least have a much easier time scumhunting for our few days of LyLo.

As much as I would like to, no, we should not lynch FA, Acryon, unless we believe she's actually scum. A mislynch today puts us in LYLO tomorrow and we need to avoid that.

Of course we want to avoid LYLO, but do you honestly have any faith in us finding the rest of scum with FA around? She is guaranteed to live at night because, town or scum, her play is helping scum. How long do we off her anti-town play for? What reason is she town other than because she's emotional/seems genuine?

[acryon]

Look, I want her lynched because I think she is scum. But she is

also

the best lynch if we are unsure of who is scum, which I think it's safe to say we are pretty lost on. The only reason I am even mentioning this second idea is because for some reason people continue to write off her anti-town play because she is emotional.

Emotion is not an alignment tell

.

[acryon]

You never accept being lynched as town. It makes no sense and it's playing against your win-con. This is common sense in the game of mafia. "I'm the perfect LyLo bait so I'm going to self-vote and have you guys lynch me now". Please read that and tell me how it's not insane.

see! the point Is no one will lynch me today. Even you were afraid to come to vote me because I'm kind of obviously town. I made noise to ruin your evil plan about saving me till lylo and I succeeded. The lynch is on you or on me. Its definitely confirmation bias from now on!

I never played against my wincon. My wincon is to make town winners. and If my lynch will help town to do so , yeah I will gladly introduce myself as a lynch candidate!

And I won't ever let myself (with that fake claim) to live till lylo if scum can advertise that I'm scum (like what you finally started to do)

Come on people... This post.

[acryon]

@Aquanim; Arc has missed no reasons for FA!scum. Yet on the other hand, I feel like scum wouldn't want to so brazenly offer themselves up in a 1v1. Currently nullish.
@Frozen Angel; I'll sort-of redirect Aqua's question for you. Can you sum up the case on arc in three sentences?

That's the problem. Your reason for feeling nullish is WIFOM. Her actual play is as anti-town as you can get, and any reasons for defense are either emotion or WIFOM, both of which are BS.

[acryon]

and you never even voted me when I self voted.

oh god you have so much contradictions. why other town members can't see this!

How are those contradictions scummy though? Please point some out specifically and we can discuss whether or not a) they are contradictions and b) whether or not those contradictions add to or detract from a scum case on Acryon.

Town: please stop writing off this nonsense as town. Emotion and foolish play do not equal town. Let's stop giving FA a pass for her anti-town play just because she's emotional.

Yes, but anti-town play does not necessarily indicate scum either.

I feel like you're exasperated and are reaching now. I would definitely like to see this game move forward, this day is taking forever and is boring as hell but if we're going to move forward, can we at least do so with good cases?

The one thing I will grant you is that, yes, emotion/foolish play/seems sincere should be considered null. And I do agree that much of my position on FA is based on these three. So can you please point out something that is not emotion/foolish play/seems sincere that I should actively see as scum motivated?

I am exasperated because I am playing with a bunch of people that are continuing to write off anti-town play over and over, although I won't admit I'm reaching. And if consistent anti-town play isn't scummy, then what is? And I already gave the reasons in the post to aqua. Please look at it. Not sure why you're asking about a case when I already posted a clear and concise one.

[acryon]

I seriously feel like I am in the twilight zone. This is the weirdest game I have ever played, and everyone seems to be playing as if they've never played a game of mafia before. I get that this game is exhausting, and FA is a large part of that. But I feel like there is just this mindset of "wow she is really going off the rails. No scum could play like this" and writing her off. Either FA is scum or this is the worst town play by town of all time, and I respect FA enough to believe it's not the latter.

[acryon]

The contradiction is in his day 2 posts about the false dilemma he put there that one of me or RC should be scum and the way he started day 3 completly trying to make sure town will ignore me and when he got caught about it he started to ask questions. when I self voted he got confused because he couldn't vote me (my flip would make my reads more valuable ) so he just tried to calm me down instead. then he started to call me "anti town" and voted me now....

Yep. This is what happened...

[acryon]

1. The "soft-claim". She was hoping she would be left alone on it, but I pushed and she had to give it up.

How is this alignment indicative exactly? TownFA might have been trying a gambit of some kind, trying to create a point of leverage that she could use when exploring other players. ScumFA would have been taking an awful risk to soft claim something without a really good backup plan. The way that things played out with RC's claim, TownFA never got to utilize the leverage that she was trying to create (because the RC claim thing pretty much forced FA to give up on that soft claim). ScumFA could have played that fake claim very differently though. It didn't have to turn into a head-to-head against RC like it did - it was claiming to have a result on RC that did it. What was ScumFA's motivation for claiming a result on RC? And at a time when RC was pressing against FA very hard to reveal the claim? That's like the dumbest possible way to try to play that fake claim out if you're scum. It's not a smart way to do it as town either. But I do not see an obvious scum motivation there.

Given the way FA has played (potentially as town), are you shocked at all if she is playing less-than-perfect scum?

2. She then claims she was drunk, even though her play and posting style seemed the same as how she normally posts.

I don't know FA well enough to say how she would behave when drunk. Also I do not discount the possibility that FA was embarrassed by the fake claim and just wanted to scapegoat it on something.

So she's lying? There's a reason LaL is a thing.

3. She talked a lot about a me/supercool scumteam on D1 for why she thought I was scum. Then SC flips town and all of a sudden our association wasnt a big part. She was telling people to look at our interactions for a reason to vote me, so clearly this isn't true.

This weakens her case on you, but it doesn't make her scum.

She attempted to misrepresent the importance of me/SC connection to her case, which is scummy.

4. She has misrepresented me on multiple occasions, saying the only reason I wanted to lynch her was based on policy, saying I am trying for a mislynch, etc.

This evidence would not be convincing to anyone but yourself, since none of the rest of us know if it's true or not that you were trying to lynch her based on policy, or trying for a mislynch, etc.

The evidence is in what I have posted. She is trying to say that I

said

things that I didn't say. That is something that is easily verifiable. This isn't about intentions.

[acryon]

She attempted to misrepresent the importance of me/SC connection to her case, which is scummy.

I specifically said that I'm scum reading you two

solo

in day 1. and If one of you flip scum I won't hesitate to lynch the other. don't misrep please.

I understand you

said

that you were scumreading us independently, but it's clear from your posts that the association carried a lot of weight with you.

Spoiler:

WELL Acryon - supercool never engaged in a conversation in the whole damn thread.

ONLY once!

look at these trusre posts and you see what I mean :

the word "super" was 26 timed mentioned in arc Iso (more than half other peoples quote)

I'm inviting everyone to ISO ACryon and search about supercool. or Iso supercool and search about Acryon

Dweele where do you stands on my theory?

Supercool - Acry

I'm inviting everyone to ISO ACryon and search about supercool. or Iso supercool and search about Acryon

Your numbers are messed up because you didn't consider Acryon quoting me or vice versa. In fact I have only directly said the word Acryon once (before posting this of course) and Acryon's numbers are incorrect too.

I reread both your ISO's

the only thing I can see is buddying - talking to other players about how town is the other one or why your not scumreading the other one .

you never had a direct conversation with each other of any kind (only 1ce in game after my replacement he questioned you why are you scumreading me)

Let's come back to hear if/when supercool898 flips red.

Do you want to lynch supercool898 or acryon?

if one flip red I will definitely go for the other.

no one yet flipped , acryon is a bit more scummy atm

[acryon]

If I'm wrong about both of them being scum together I'm sure I'm right about at least one of them.

This is such a cop-out though, as it requires two lynches to figure out and even then you could be out two townies. These kinds of statements don't mean anything.

[acryon]

@Mod:

I'll be V/LA until Monday.

Leaving in a little while, but hopefully I can come back to a nice surprise of a few more votes on FA.

[acryon]

your accusing me of scumrading you basedon SC.

well i have some news! I wasn't! I was completly solo scumreading you and solo scumreading him

and I was believing there is a kind of weird connection between two slots .

More misrepresentation.

pedit : scum wishes ...

Contrary to what you say, it was clear by the amount of pushing you did about it that the me/SC connection was very important to you. The only reason to leave me open anyway in case SC flipped town was to try and lynch me later. This is my theory. This is not misrepresentation, and its even far from the crux of my reasoning for voting you. There are far more compelling reasons and anyone who doesn't decide to let their gut or WIFOM get in the way will see that.

[acryon]

This is disappointing I don't

hate

a marcrell lynch, but the problem is that even if FA is town, scum is going to leave both of us alive to LyLo and then we will just straight lose. I have the ability to believe that FA is town for the sake of not just losing the game due to my hardheadedness (though I certainly don't believe that now); I'm not sure FA has that ability for me which is bad for town.

So I suppose since you all are completely unwilling to lynch FA at this point, I will back off for the time being. Consider this a plead to you FA to let your issues with me go for now because it's only going to hurt town at this juncture.

[acryon]

@acryon

your thoughts about lynching mala?

Eh. The problem with all of these low-activity slot lynches is they just don't give us much of anything. Even if we get scum tonight, where the heck do we go from there? I'm not sure of an alternative, but it makes me less than enthused about a mala lynch.

[acryon]

Almost every slot remaining is a low activity slot in this game...

and if you were to make a decision based on current activity, I'm not sure how leaving the lurkiest slot alive and lynching an active one is supposed to be helpful for town, either.

Do you think Mala has a mafia role PM or not?

Are you serious? A very active slot has made a lot of comments during the game and a lot of reads and connections. There is way more to glean from an active slot than a lurky one.

I'm not sure I like your current demeanor Aqua. You came in seemingly interested in helping and clearing things up, but a lot of your recent posts are very meh. If I thought Mala was scum I would be voting for her. Clearly I'm not confident in that fact.

[acryon]

Also @Aqua: what do you think of Dierfire's entrance and posts?

[acryon]

@Acryon: So you think Mala's town, or you're unsure if she's scum? You didn't actually tell us.

I'm near the middle on her and the only thing that would be leaning me scum is her overall absence/unhelpfulness.

Guess I'll have to jump on the FA is town bandwagon, complete lack of giving shits besides pushing Acryon seems town enough.

Why in the world does this make FA town? Not caring is town?

[acryon]

Even if we get scum tonight, where the heck do we go from there?

If Mala is Mafia then we don't win without lynching her...

Clearly, but I'd rather us get a more active mafia.

[acryon]

Er I meant

UNVOTE: Marcrell

So where are you at then? We only have a day left.

[acryon]

For the record, I also don't feel super comfortable following Dierfire onto a counter wagon on Mala. This is a really difficult situation here. I think the player I'm least fearful of following to a wagon is Aquanim. My town read on FA has obviously blown whatever vestiges remain of my FA-RolePlay associative out of the water, and I think that Aquanim has redeemed his slot. Plus his reasoning in this weekend's posting wrt Mala is hard to find fault with. Pressure time.

VOTE: Malakittens

If anyone is interested in a Dwlee wagon, I will consider it. Make your case.

I don't hate a dwlee wagon, but I don't think there's time for it. Seems we are at marcrell or mala.

At this point, I think I may have to go Mala. While it's unfortunate that the slot has had so little activity, I think there's a slightly higher chance of getting scum there than in marcrell.

[acryon]

Almost every slot remaining is a low activity slot in this game...

and if you were to make a decision based on current activity, I'm not sure how leaving the lurkiest slot alive and lynching an active one is supposed to be helpful for town, either.

Do you think Mala has a mafia role PM or not?

Are you serious? A very active slot has made a lot of comments during the game and a lot of reads and connections. There is way more to glean from an active slot than a lurky one.

Yes, I am super serious.

If activity were going to inform my decision at this point it would be along the lines of "we cannot afford to have this player lurk any longer", or "I will not lose to so-and-so's play". I understand your line of reasoning on day 1, but this isn't day 1 any more.

What I am saying is that given two slots that I think are scum, I prefer to lynch the one that will give me more info. And there's not really such a thing as differing probabilities of scum, so if my gut feels like either could be scum, why would we not go after the one that gives us more info?

[acryon]

@acryon

: in what sense is TheCow's slot "higher activity" in terms of reads, connections and comments than Mala's?

Mala has said essentially nothing all game. TheCow didn't say all that much more, but certainly TheCow + Marcrell has done far more than Mala slot.

[acryon]

Also @Aqua: what do you think of Dierfire's entrance and posts?

Okay enough that I would prefer to let him live a day and see what he does with the slot.

I agree.

[acryon]

What I am saying is that given two slots that I think are scum, I prefer to lynch the one that will give me more info. And there's not really such a thing as differing probabilities of scum, so if my gut feels like either could be scum, why would we not go after the one that gives us more info?

If I felt like either could be scum with more-or-less the same likelihood, I would feel really bad about lynching the currently active and useful one (especially if it turned out I was wrong).

Killing active players and leaving the inactive ones alive is a sure way to end up with a useless town later in the game and a scum win.

That depends on how useful we think the activity is.

[acryon]

...
I'm not sure I like your current demeanor Aqua. You came in seemingly interested in helping and clearing things up, but a lot of your recent posts are very meh.
...

Which of my "recent posts" led you to this conclusion?

Specifically this post which felt like a non-post:

What is it then, aqua?
Who is town wjo is scum or os it tvt?

I don't know. I lean very slightly town on TheCow's slot (I'll say why when Dierfire catches up) but it is not by any means a strong read. I keep flipflopping on my Mario read. Could be either, could be neither. It not being both is still a useful observation for me.

And then your recent post asking me if I thought Mala had a mafia role PM.

Guess I'll have to jump on the FA is town bandwagon, complete lack of giving shits besides pushing Acryon seems town enough.

Why in the world does this make FA town? Not caring is town?

A sense of security/lack of need to defend oneself generally indicates that they believe their play will explain itself indicates confidence in their alignment, or that since they're town it's not as important because they'll naturally be towny.

She has defended the crap out of herself. For good reason though because her play has been very anti-town.

Frozen is probably town because she's seen my scum game recently. I noticed that because I was playing between the two alignments and trying to act 'town' there that I was mirroring things that I was doing in my town games. She could have easily pushed that as a reason to lynch me, but hasn't.

This point seems like a major stretch. I'm not saying what it implies for now, but I'm quoting it for posterity.

Now that I've gotten to Aqua's big post on me, I don't really feel the need to justify the entire thing with a detailed response (sorry you probably spent a lot of time on it), but you mentioned that my case on FA boiled down to my feeling she was scum for playing a bad town game, and that's not quite it. It's that she is playing the worst town game in the history of mafia if she is town, and I just can't believe that someone who has ever played the game before would do as many anti-town things as she has if she is town. My back and forth between cooling off and going after her was each day recognizing when the tunneling was bad for town, and backing off, but then restarting when the town was more of a blank slate. Of course I was hoping people would change their minds, but it didn't happen. But if I think someone is scum, I may stop pushing them for today when I realize it's bad for town progression during a day, but that doesn't mean I won't pick it up tomorrow.

[acryon]

look at Acryon post?

he just confirmed my theory!

Which is?

[acryon]

There's the part where you argued she was scum for playing a bad town game, and also there is the part where I think you were deliberately baiting her into stupid shit-flinging arguments.

Eh, I never fight for the sake of fighting. I wouldn't even do that as scum. I don't have time for that.

The way to get somebody lynched is to talk to the rest of town, not argue with your suspect that they are scum. I think Frozen Angel is tilted and doesn't know better. I think you do know better.

Pretty sure every time I posted about her, it was initially an appeal to the town. Can I help that she came to defend herself each time and engaged me? No. My goal was never to wall with her, because I don't think there has been a benefit from really any of her posts this game, so why would I want more of that?

[acryon]

There's the part where you argued she was scum for playing a bad town game, and also there is the part where I think you were deliberately baiting her into stupid shit-flinging arguments.

Eh, I never fight for the sake of fighting. I wouldn't even do that as scum. I don't have time for that.

<shrug> well, it's what you've done this game, whether you can see it or not

The way to get somebody lynched is to talk to the rest of town, not argue with your suspect that they are scum. I think Frozen Angel is tilted and doesn't know better. I think you do know better.

Pretty sure every time I posted about her, it was initially an appeal to the town. Can I help that she came to defend herself each time and engaged me? No. My goal was never to wall with her, because I don't think there has been a benefit from really any of her posts this game, so why would I want more of that?

At some point you could have just... not replied. It's not like Frozen was actually getting any thread traction you had to deal with.

You'll noticed I did have moments where I abstained, but it was difficult sometimes. Your predecessor seems to have understood this plight.

[acryon]

You'll noticed I did have moments where I abstained, but it was difficult sometimes. Your predecessor seems to have understood this plight.

My predecessor in this slot didn't have a single solitary clue how to play town without making a complete mess of the thread, and I'm pretty sure his process for making decisions was strongly based on "what makes me feel big and important". Seeing as how you're at least aware of the idea that big messy arguments that aren't going anywhere is bad for town I expect better from you.

Are you seriously telling me this post was necessary?

Do you really not see how the way you are playing and tunneling on me is anti-town? Multiple pages and countless posts of your's have been wasted spouting things that are misinformed, ignorant, or even patently false. Instead of being able to read the game, people are forced to read your drivel. I don't actually care if you think I am scum, but filling up the thread with your terrible arguments does nothing but make it easier for scum to hide.

It probably wasn't, and you can chalk that up to frustration/an appeal to FA to change her play if she is truly town.

[acryon]

This conversation has run its course, I think. Everyone else can make their own judgement.

Agree.

Frozen Angel is not getting lynched today, and you indicated that you would possibly go for Mala instead. Going to make that vote?

I was planning on waiting a while longer since I'll still be around and I'd rather wait to see what might come out in that time considering my relatively weak feelings about either wagon, but we certainly don't need a NL, so I suppose I can vote now.

VOTE: Mala

[acryon]

VOTE: aCRYON

K you were really fence-sitty and looked like youre avoiding the wagon until forced.

Yes, this is true and I've been really up front about that.

Also I'm not the one who said I didn't want to lynch active people. I said the opposite of that.

[acryon]

(expired on 2016-01-12 20:44:25)

So I'm just going to point this out.
I don't want to risk a nolynch as it's like the opposite of what we want. Information.
VOTE: Malakittens

I currently think Dwlee could be scum because he's been largely out of my focus and his earlygame seems really... forced. Go and look at it. It's probably miswording but I think 111 was a slip?

Dier is still Golden. His read on FA is meta that could be easily faked by blood. The read on RP is probably also made-up... how does his playstyle make RP town there? And the too-scummy-to-be-scum is also bad. Take a look at this for example. The logic does not have to be scum-movitated but I think it is. For some reason, he has reasons for his townreads, but has no reason for me being scum? Looks like a launchpad for lynching me in LYLO. Seeing as everyone seems to have me as their "backup" scumread for some reason?

Marcrell is still cow.

Those are my three main scumreads right now. I will jump at a chance to lynch any one of them but I don't think it will be possible.

This post is super awkward. What we want isn't information. We want scum.

[acryon]

its okay FA I am bait, but its my own fault and I should be lynched.

Bji doesn't see town motivation in my pre post, but it's there. If I'm not lynched here I'll be lynched later on and then people will blame me for not playing better. I'm mislynch bait so it's better for me to go now rather than later. IDK why he doesn't see this view point as town, but whatever. Scum really wouldn't say that while being close to winning. they would rather fight than me okay with going down tbh.

Well you already went down. MM was the hammer. Did we get scum?

[acryon]

nope

VT?

[acryon]

anyways Jake don't put me in the DT. The chances of me following the game is slim to none.

Also, I also find it really funny how all of you implied I was being lynched, but none of you asked me directly to claim.

But yeah I'd take a deeper look into the {Cow, MM4, Acyron}.

If I'm wrong on any of the townreads it's prob Dwlee since its the weaker. FA is a pretty strong townread as so is Bji.

You aren't dead. That was me asking you to claim and hoping scum-you might admit it out of frustration.

Eh I think I will switch at this point.

VOTE: Marcrell

[acryon]

Your response wasn't quite what I was hoping for, but it's made me question enough.

[acryon]

I think that we can still lynch Mala if Marcrell and Aquanim vote there.
I'd flash-wagon MM4 or Dwlee if necessary.
I don't want to lynch Marcrell.

Those are two slots I'm very unsure on, so honestly if there is traction for either of those two and not for marcrell, I'm willing to go there.

[acryon]

I think that we can still lynch Mala if Marcrell and Aquanim vote there.
I'd flash-wagon MM4 or Dwlee if necessary.
I don't want to lynch Marcrell.

I started to get bad vibes from mala as well

this page was a theatrical show ...

What happened recently that gave you bad vibes? I find it surprising that you could feel worse about her now than you did before.

[acryon]

The way You and MM joined the wagon

the fake hammer thing

and the no - emotional response to it

(she said you implied the fake hammer like she knew it and in her next post refused to claim because she thought she is already hammered)

Where did the bold happen?

[acryon]

Your response wasn't quite what I was hoping for, but it's made me question enough.

A fake hammer is intended to get the victim to accidentally reveal their scum alignment.

If someone claims town in response to a fake hammer IT MEANS NOTHING.

I agree with this. The point is I didn't get scum-vibes from her response. It has nothing to do with her claiming town in response.

1. Mala could have easily been just as aware that the hammer wasn't real in which case her subsequent claims are just the same claims she's been making. No additional info.

Clearly, but the way she was saying things made me feel otherwise.

2. Even if Mala thought the hammer was real, why would a scum ever just announce their scum role like that? Every scum worth their salt would know that there is ZERO to be gained from that:
a. A mistake could have been made in vote counting, and every scum would be aware of that and realize that claiming after a hammer is stupid
b. Revealing your scum role just gives town more time to talk/make reads before the mod locks the thread, which cannot be good for scum in any way

She seemed a bit emotional, which is why I figured I would give it a try. Experience didn't mean much to me here considering a lot of her other play this game.

[acryon]

UNVOTE: Malakittens

I was never thrilled with this lynch to begin with, but the way stuff has gone down today, I think it would be a crime to lynch Mala now.

We need to seriously consider the case against acryon at this point.

We also need to look at MM4 more closely because I agree that post 2402 was, like, terrible.

lol this is not a path that you want to go down. We can look at MM, but don't waste time looking at me right now.

[acryon]

Maybe I'm just being dumb about Mala's reactions, but they didn't give me scumvibes at all, especially her comment about not asking for a claim, which is very relevant.

[acryon]

anyways Jake don't put me in the DT. The chances of me following the game is slim to none.

Also, I also find it really funny how all of you

implied

I was being lynched, but none of you asked me directly to claim.

But yeah I'd take a deeper look into the {Cow, MM4, Acyron}.

If I'm wrong on any of the townreads it's prob Dwlee since its the weaker. FA is a pretty strong townread as so is Bji.

nope

VT?

Does it matter?

I'm already lynched

so you'll see me flip.

She was referring in the first to how everyone was acting like her lynch was a foregone conclusion, and curious why everyone was just moving forward with it without anyone asking for a claim.

[acryon]

She seemed a bit emotional, which is why I figured I would give it a try. Experience didn't mean much to me here considering a lot of her other play this game.

Well here's the thing. I gotta try to figure out what motivation you could have for that charade. Town motivation I could see as never being very confident in the Mala lynch to begin with and looking for a way to get off the wagon without inviting even further suspicion (since you've got FA and even Aquanim now on your heels). Scum motivation ... well, if Mala is town, I can't see any scum motivation there, when Mala was now set up for a lynch and all you have to do is wait until Aquanim hammers. And presuming Mala is scum means that you're both scum and that becomes an associative read.

So I guess the question is, what are the chances that BOTH Mala and Acryon are scum? Now I have to do homework, waah. I have to go read Mala and Acronym interactions in ISO. And I have this meeting coming up ...

pedit: So Acryon, you don't think Mala is sharp enough to handle a fake hammer as scum? I don't know if she is or isn't, but town paranoia would lead me to lean towards her being sharp enough.

Eh I would agree she is probably sharp enough generally, but I also saw her acting emotional and figured I would take a shot. Especially since she hasn't been super present this game, it didn't seem ridiculous to believe she may miss the fact that it wasn't actually a hammer.

My motivation was that I was hoping she may just claim scum, which I understand is very unlikely, but at this point she was so close to the rope it seemed worth a shot. Either way, I figured I may be able to make something of her reaction given unsure I was in her lynch in the first place.

[acryon]

I guess there could be scum motivation if Mala is town for Acryon to leave that wagon, if Acryon thinks that Mala is very likely to be lynched anyway and is going for town cred by leaving a mislynch wagon. But that's a bit of a stretch ... probably more valuable just to stay on the wagon.

pedit: All of that (from 2431) may be true, but you've already admitted that you actually can't get anything out of a town claim after a fake hammer. And yet you continue to act like it's valid to try to get something out of a town claim after a fake hammer. Also not sure why you think you can suddenly make an emotional read on Mala.

Anyway, like I said, I don't feel I can draw a specific conclusion from this action by Acryon, except to say, that it's definitely not something I would do as town. But I gotta go read those ISOs ...

I'm not getting anything out of the claim. I just feel her reactions seem genuine enough to make me question. I was always near the fence with Mala, and gut is really what pulls people away from the fence in one direction or the other.

Ha ha. I go back to the ISOs of Mala and Acryon and the first thing I see is this:

Soon after Mala's entry in 498 ... I remember that. And I remember pointing out how weird I thought it was that Mala never mentioned Acryon, who was at the time (in my opinion) one of the most universally town read, instead putting her top town reads as Dwlee, RolePlay, and Neumume (who became Titus). So I asked why in post 499. OK so her response was "Not sure I why I haven't, but i want to check old games because I had a tell somewhere with Acryon so i wanna see if i can't dig it up." (post 501).

She never dug anything up, or even tried, or ever gave any further comment on Acryon at all!

622 - "The pressure from RP is stupid right now and the chances of this being a TVT fight is pretty high." (referring to FA vs. Acryon). This could be read as a defense of a scum partner.

Now we come to today and post 2399. Mala votes Acryon, who is in zero danger (at the time, not sure about now!) of being lynched. Then MM4 puts Mala at actual L-1. Acryon's response? To "fake hammer" her and use her town claim response as a reason to leave her wagon, removing her from L-1 danger.

Now let's examine Acryon's ISO with respect to Mala:

618 - "Got a second to explain? We could use your voice here." This would be so choice if it was acryon trying to prod a newly replaced in teammate to get more active in the game.

Here are a few places where Acryon could be interpreting as defending Mala:
766 discredits the notion that FA, mala, and TheCow could all be scum
1431 discredits the notion that mala's activity could be used to infer her scum alignment
1434 tries to get RC to stop talking about wanting to lynch mala and start talking about whoever his #2 choice would be
1438 tries to get conversation off the topic of mala again
1513 tries to get conversation away from talking about lynching mala and onto "#2"

On reread I am quite frankly amazed at the number of soft or hard defenses of Mala that Acryon has done over time. And pretty subtly too, I didn't really see the pattern at first.

I really don't want to lynch today based on a last minute associative read. But I will say that if one of these two flips scum, we really should think hard about lynching the other.

I really hope we don't lynch mala and she flips scum today, because I have a feeling bji is dying tonight and then the town will cling to this and go after me. I was hoping bji and I could talk more before the end of the day so we aren't just left here, but I'll only be around for a few more hours.

[acryon]

good morning everyone

I remain dubious about allowing Mala to live based on her word that she is lynchbait

For me it's not really about her saying she is lynchbait. I just felt her posts seemed genuine, which I understand I can't get anyone else to take my gut feeling. That being said, obviously we won't be NLing and I will vote for Mala before I leave if it's clear we can't get anywhere else.

[acryon]

Mislynch takes us to LYLO.
No lynch takes us to MYLO. A no lynch from there takes us to LYLO.

Did I compute that correctly?

Yes, but I think we'd rather save the NL for later if we need it.

[acryon]

I really hope we don't lynch mala and she flips scum today, because I have a feeling bji is dying tonight and then the town will cling to this and go after me. I was hoping bji and I could talk more before the end of the day so we aren't just left here, but I'll only be around for a few more hours.

My meeting is over now. What did you want to talk about?

I am worried that if mala flips scum and you die tonight, then I will have no one to convince of my innocence since you won't be here to talk through your me/mala case.

[acryon]

It seems to me that it means that being wrong about Mala is no better than letting scum pick the next two lynches. So I think it shines a light on how valuable confidence in the Mala lynch is at this point.

Sorry just to be clear, I meant "no better than letting scum pick the next two kills". In other words, one mislynch + a NK is just as bad as two NLs (which imply two NKs).

That being said, in either case, we're still at LYLO, and all we've done is allowed scum to decide who they think is best to leave alive so ... not sure it makes any difference.

pedit: Yes, I have completed the thought process, and it's not too fruitful

Well one mislynch + a NK is actually better than two NLs, because it's the difference between scum choosing the two choices that make their lives the easiest and letting the town at least try at one.

[acryon]

I really hope we don't lynch mala and she flips scum today, because I have a feeling bji is dying tonight and then the town will cling to this and go after me. I was hoping bji and I could talk more before the end of the day so we aren't just left here, but I'll only be around for a few more hours.

My meeting is over now. What did you want to talk about?

I am worried that if mala flips scum and you die tonight, then I will have no one to convince of my innocence since you won't be here to talk through your me/mala case.

Explain please. I've already posted some evidence of you appearing to defend Mala both overtly (via postings I referenced) and covertly (via this fake hammer leave your wagon thing). If mala flips scum and I'm dead, you won't have to convince me of anything. Are you worried that you'll have to convince others to ignore my post 2435? If so, you'd have to do that whether I was alive or not. Not sure what you're getting at with your concern over my death.

I can reason with you. I can't reason with the echo of your arguments, because if you mala flips scum and you die and flip town, they will be taken as gospel.

[acryon]

Mala's whole "talking about nothing but townreads all day" into "oh, I've been scumreading TheCow all along"

is play I refuse to let beat me if it is scum

.

So you understand some aspect of my relationship with FA.

[acryon]

So you want... what? Going to have to reason fast, not long left.

This interaction is also weird, I'd definitely look at it tomorrow. Right now priorities.

Well it's unfortunate it came out at the time it did for the reasons I mentioned. There really isn't time to discuss it at this point which sucks because I don't want us stuck in that situation if mala flips scum.

[acryon]

I'm probably going to have to revise my evaluation of Frozen and Acryon.

I still think that bji is Town. I thought so before I knew that he'd been cleared, so if he's a Godfather that's just bad luck. So why is he alive? I assume that they were more afraid of Aquanim than of bji; they were also clearly more afraid of Aquanim than of me.

Eh, it's best not to get into some of this stuff, as there can be a lot of WIFOM involved.

Agree with bji on the voting.

I also think that we should massclaim here. It's not super likely that we have many more town PR's, but I still think we should. It should also be done in order of the person most perceived as scum versus town. So I think that list is probably something like: Mario, Marcrell, Acryon, Dwlee, FA, Dierfire, bji. I'm open to other orders, but this seemed like a relatively fair view. I can go first if need be, since I understand there is a conflict of interest (if I'm scum) since I'm the one who presented the idea.

Well.

Right now game is more close cut, I'll probably be trying to set apart who I think is town/scum.

What does this mean? Why were you not doing this already?

[acryon]

@Mod

and others: I'll be V/LA starting in a little over an hour and until Monday morning my time. I may try to post while I'm gone but doubt I'll be able to.

[acryon]

Should I just claim before I leave? Otherwise I may not be able to for a few days.

[acryon]

I am Town Voyeur. Every night I can target a player and find out what (if anything) they were targeted by that night.

To be honest I’ve never seen or played a role like this before (seems very tough to get much out of), so I was unsure of really who the best person to target would be.

Night one I looked at Roleplay and nothing happened
Night two I looked at Titus, and he was the target of a NK.
Night three I looked at Aqua, thinking scum would kill bji, and he was the target of a NK.

[acryon]

Marcrell can claim next.

[acryon]

Just coming in to say it makes me nervous that dwlee appears to be dodging this game.

[acryon]

Nobody wants to play anymore, I don't think. We have 9 days (not that we need to use all of it), and I think people are just waiting to see what happens, no sense of urgency. That being said, you must be talking about more than just today in relation to Dwlee because everyone's lurking today.

Your claim is interesting. It's not easily verifiable and very unlikely to be counter-claimed if it's being faked because it's such an unusual role, and your results were all on people who died.

Why didn't you ever target Frozen Angel?

I actually prefer that we just runoff vote for today, so I don't have any intention of talking a great deal. But if people really want to talk ... I'm game.

We kind of need you somewhat engaged bji if we have any chance here. I didn't target FA because it didn't seem likely that she would be targeted by anything, especially after our cop died. But again I had never even heard of a voyeur prior to this game so I didn't really know how to use it best :/

[acryon]

Can someone make a list of the claims?

all vt except possibly bji, and arc who claims voyeur.
I think a scum voyeur makes far more sense here than a town one. The flipped PRs have been simple, and a Voyeur doesn't flow, as well as the fact that it has no town utility. It's extremely awkward.
Meanwhile, a SCUM voyeur would have plenty of utility. Roleblocker, a doc, and a cop is quite some power. A voyeur would help alert scum to it, going well with a rolecop to crush the townpower?

Makes me consider replacing Dierfire with Acryon.

Is ascetic cop really a simple role? Like I've said, I don't really see much power in the role, but I think to say it has no town utility is very silly. For one, just for us to have an RB, a cop, and a doctor, the scum need some halfway decent PRs. A voyeur would not be it. As for town utility, I could theoretically be used to confirm the action of our cop/RB/doctor if we target the same person. Unfortunately, they didn't make it that long.

Just a reminder everyone. Three of these players are scum, meaning if everyone is saying I'm scum-voyeur, that's a bad sign.

Only phone-posting at this point, but I'll have more to say Monday, specifically to you bji so we know where to go from here

[acryon]

Acryon: Is Ascetic Cop a simple role?

Personally I would say no, since I've played a good handful of games and didn't even know ascetic was a thing, but I suppose it could be up to experience.

I'm vanilla town.

I really didn't like post 2402, it felt opportunistic, I don't think it was necessary for Mario to suddenly jump on a Mala wagon (a player he had not interacted with or even talked about the entire game) just because "we need information". And the vote was followed by a bunch of analysis of ... other players that he wasn't voting for. Why not vote for someone you actually think is scum instead of someone you have no feelings on?

He was also in a pretty convenient spot on the RC wagon. And his play has just felt kind of opportunistic in general. Those are my reasons for voting Mario.

Not sure what else to say.

Acryon, you say you want me to be engaged ... OK. Make a case for who you think we should lynch, and I'll consider it on its merits.

pedit: Interesting points on the voyeur claim. But we don't know what roles scum have so who knows if voyeur was intended to balance out one of their roles or not.

I think Mario is scum here. In addition to the points you've made, his comments about scum voyeur making far more sense ping me hard. Obviously I have a vested interest in this, but it is very odd that he would say this. Him saying it would have no utility is just flat wrong, especially when considering the Wiki says this "Its use is

mainly

down to being able to confirm or contradict claims at a later point in the game -- if a potential Cop claim claims to have investigated a player whom the Voyeur targeted the same Night, the Voyeur is in position to confirm or deny this claim." Again, I've never played a game with a voyeur, so I can't say for sure what common knowledge is regarding it, but the wiki is usually a good start and I don't get the town-motivation to say something like "it has no town utility" when that seems to be just patently false.

[acryon]

This make totally no sense

How can you say that when we literally have zero idea what the mafia team is? I'll help you out; you can't.

[acryon]

This make totally no sense

How can you say that when we literally have zero idea what the mafia team is? I'll help you out; you can't.

Yeah sure... Your the best player of mafia! Stop insulting me and my playing ... Your pissing me off

I don't understand how I implied any of those things in that post. But the fact is you can't say "Town has too much power" when you don't know what the scum has. You can't speak of balance when you have no idea how much is on the other side of the scale.

[acryon]

This make totally no sense

How can you say that when we literally have zero idea what the mafia team is? I'll help you out; you can't.

Yeah sure... Your the best player of mafia! Stop insulting me and my playing ... Your pissing me off

I don't understand how I implied any of those things in that post. But the fact is you can't say "Town has too much power" when you don't know what the scum has. You can't speak of balance when you have no idea how much is on the other side of the scale.

Town Doctor -> 1 slot can't die
Town Role Blocker -> can stop the killer and suggesting great scum team
Town ascetic cop -> means can't be healed or roleblocked but can find 1 scum

we have 3 scums what do you suggest? mafia goons? nah I think they have a roleblocker + Bulletproof stuff and a rolecop/voyere/tracker/watcher to figure the town powers.

Voyere in town make this setup completly town sided broken.

lol again you cannot talk about a setup being broken when you literally don't know half of it. There's no point in speculating about setup in a normal game, but it's safe to say they probably have a good bit of power.

[acryon]

-that a Mafia Voyeur is too weak

first ... a mafia voyeur is not weaker than a town Voyeur if not stronger. Its the tool to crack the setup. specially when town have 3 strong town PR's

I WANT TO VOTE ACRYON like 100 times more than MM4. what are you implying?

and your in my scum read list ... lol

The most important part for scum would be finding out

who

is the PR. A voyeur doesn't do that.

[acryon]

Ok Dierfire. At least we know we are on the same page here. These guys are talking absolute nonsense. Although I guess I don't blame them because they only need a single townie to buy in for them to end the game. There has to be at least two scum arguing on the opposite side here.

[acryon]

Dierfire, how about you explain your scumreads?

Most of it comes down to POE.

Obviously, bji is clear.
Frozen and acryon shouldn't both be Mafia; they've been trying to get each other lynched for the entire game. I guess that they could both be Town, but that makes lynching from Marcrell/MM4/Dwlee even more attractive.
So that leaves me with at least 2/3 from Marcrell/MM4/Dwlee. When I first entered, MM4 and Dwlee both wanted Marcrell lynched. Dwlee also had an unusual reaction to Radiant's false claim, and subsequently seemed trying to feel out whether everyone was going to listen to Radiant about lynching MM4. I was originally thinking that this makes Dwlee a good lynch but that sort of requires us to decide between Frozen and acryon right now, since they disagree on Dwlee.

My best plan is to lynch from Marcrell/MM4/Dwlee twice and then decide between Frozen and Acryon when we know exactly what roles the Mafia have.
If anyone has an alternative proposal as to players whose alignment is most clearly shown by flips, I'll hear it, but I think that the claimed Voyeur is the best candidate for that position.

I agree with this. While I'm obviously not thrilled by the idea of there ever being a 1v1 with me and Frozen, I knew it would probably come eventually. I think MM4 is the lynch today, either Dier or bji dies tonight, then we lynch dwlee, although the remaining townies can discuss this more tomorrow.

[acryon]

so what about Acryon/Direfire/Marcell scum team? It just make very sense to me right now ...

and acryon. calling my posts absolute nonsense won't help you I assure you

FWIW, I am open to changing my mind. Rest assured, if it's you and me in LyLo, I'm going to be looking at person #3 as well. I'm not prideful enough to hold onto a scumread just because I had it for most of the game.

I do want to note that MM4's flip on me today was very unnatural, and I simply can't see town making a switch that dramatic, especially when backed by simply incorrect ideas about a PR.

[acryon]

Dierfire, how about you explain your scumreads?

Most of it comes down to POE.

Obviously, bji is clear.
Frozen and acryon shouldn't both be Mafia; they've been trying to get each other lynched for the entire game. I guess that they could both be Town, but that makes lynching from Marcrell/MM4/Dwlee even more attractive.
So that leaves me with at least 2/3 from Marcrell/MM4/Dwlee. When I first entered, MM4 and Dwlee both wanted Marcrell lynched. Dwlee also had an unusual reaction to Radiant's false claim, and subsequently seemed trying to feel out whether everyone was going to listen to Radiant about lynching MM4. I was originally thinking that this makes Dwlee a good lynch but that sort of requires us to decide between Frozen and acryon right now, since they disagree on Dwlee.

My best plan is to lynch from Marcrell/MM4/Dwlee twice and then decide between Frozen and Acryon when we know exactly what roles the Mafia have.
If anyone has an alternative proposal as to players whose alignment is most clearly shown by flips, I'll hear it, but I think that the claimed Voyeur is the best candidate for that position.

I agree with this. While I'm obviously not thrilled by the idea of there ever being a 1v1 with me and Frozen, I knew it would probably come eventually. I think MM4 is the lynch today, either Dier or bji dies tonight, then we lynch dwlee, although the remaining townies can discuss this more tomorrow.

Can you talk to me instead of buddying Dierfire?

@arc; what do you mean? I never made a "flip" on you. I never thought you were a good enough option for a lynch and you're still in a town slot?

What?

I agree with you, bji, I consider the voyeur claim null because we have no clue what roles mafia have.

no. it has no town utility. it has a lot of scum utility. therefore it is scum.

[acryon]

4 days >_>

5 and a half days

[acryon]

Oh I read day 4 and thought it was 4 days. lol

Who is town dwlee? And why are they town?

[acryon]

Oh I read day 4 and thought it was 4 days. lol

Who is town dwlee? And why are they town?

Bji, cop cleared.
One of you and frozen.. I'm leaning frozen being town because I really don't like your claim.
Golden didn't do much and I was leaning scum on that slot but dier came in and they seem genuine in their efforts to scumhunt so that slot is probably town.

So Marcrell/MM4/Me scumteam? How come you haven't said a word about MM4 being scum? Nothing in your ISO would lead me to believe you feel that way.

Also, you went from this:

I agree with you, bji, I consider the voyeur claim null because we have no clue what roles mafia have.

Recognizing that you can't logically make a decision about balance without knowing one side, to this:

Just thought about it for a bit, I think acryon's claim was actually a scum claim. For there to be 4 power roles in the game mafia would need a ton of power which i feel is extremely unlikely.

How do you reconcile changing your mind from something where the premise of your read is logically sound to a stance where the premise is critically flawed?

[acryon]

I don't think that my stance is critically flawed..

But you recognized in your initial post the actual

fact

that you can't correctly assess a game's balance knowing only one side. This fact doesn't just stop being true.

[acryon]

I don't think that my stance is critically flawed..
I have my thoughts about you, mario, marcrell scum team but now that I think about it it wouldn't make sense because mario is the one pushing your claim being scummy so maybe I'm wrong about one of you? Really not sure.

Why do you think MM is scum?

[acryon]

I think mario is scum because of a lack of content (guess we have seen how that has worked out but still), he pushed for a mala lynch yesterday and I dont understand his lack of townread on dierfire.

dwlee...these reasons are bad. He has provided arguably more content than you (and as you've noted, this argument hasn't led to scum this game), he was about the last person to push mala, and other people don't think Dier is town and you're not scumreading them. It seems like you're just pulling reasons out of thin air. You're either scum or just not paying even a bit of attention. I believe we're working with the former.

[acryon]

I think mario is scum because of a lack of content (guess we have seen how that has worked out but still), he pushed for a mala lynch yesterday and I dont understand his lack of townread on dierfire.

dwlee...these reasons are bad. He has provided arguably more content than you (and as you've noted, this argument hasn't led to scum this game), he was about the last person to push mala, and other people don't think Dier is town and you're not scumreading them. It seems like you're just pulling reasons out of thin air. You're either scum or just not paying even a bit of attention. I believe we're working with the former.

I'm not pulling reasons out of thing air, mario's response actually makes a lot of sense, though. I still don't understand why people aren't town reading dier.

You're being too diplomatic and waffly for this point in the game; you might as well be an empty body. It doesn't do anyone any good to have a player going: “Yeah it could be this because of this, but maybe not, because of this. Yeah idk." Be decisive. There are 4 days left.

[acryon]

Which is why I am inclined to believe you are scum. You aren't scumhunting, at all. You're just sitting back and hoping you can ride the day out.

[acryon]

I'm trying not to just sit here and sheep my town reads but okay dude. :C

Literally all you have done today is tell people not to talk before everyone had claimed, briefly comment on my claim, and briefly answer a couple questions directed toward you. How is this scumhunting? With 4 days left, you haven't expressed who you think we should lynch or why, when this is LyLo. You can't be laid back, because one more mislynch and we lose. I just can't imagine this laissez-faire attitude coming from town.

Someone tell my why we shouldn't lynch dwlee today.

[acryon]

Again, these are only in response to direct questioning of you (which I noted), and that's it. There is no scumhunting, and it's crazy to me that you would even try to list those quotes as if they were scumhunting. There is a big difference between A) Explaining to the town why X person is scum and engaging people to better form your reads, and B) Answering questions about your reads with basic answers. You are doing B, which is not scumhunting. Even a lot of your answers are waffling, which make them essentially meaningless.

[acryon]

How am I waffling?

This is quick but here's a few showing you being indecisive, noncomittal, or contradictory of your claims.

I have my thoughts about you, mario, marcrell scum team

but now that I think about it it wouldn't make sense because mario is the one pushing your claim being scummy so maybe I'm wrong about one of you? Really not sure.

I don't think that my stance is critically flawed..
I have my thoughts about you, mario, marcrell scum team but now that I think about it it wouldn't make sense because mario is the one pushing your claim being scummy so maybe I'm wrong about one of you? Really not sure.

What about Acryon , Dire , Marcel ?

wut.

My individual scum team is Acryon, mm and marcrell but they don't make sense together,

I don't think that my stance is critically flawed..

But you recognized in your initial post the actual

fact

that you can't correctly assess a game's balance knowing only one side. This fact doesn't just stop being true.

mmm yea I guess

I think mario is scum because of a lack of content (guess we have seen how that has worked out but still)

,

I think mario is scum because of a lack of content (guess we have seen how that has worked out but still), he pushed for a mala lynch yesterday and I dont understand his lack of townread on dierfire.

dwlee...these reasons are bad. He has provided arguably more content than you (and as you've noted, this argument hasn't led to scum this game), he was about the last person to push mala, and other people don't think Dier is town and you're not scumreading them. It seems like you're just pulling reasons out of thin air. You're either scum or just not paying even a bit of attention. I believe we're working with the former.

I'm not pulling reasons out of thing air, mario's response actually makes a lot of sense, though.

[acryon]

Because I am not sure of my reads. >.<

Be that as it may, you need to take a stance. Not taking a stance does absolutely zero for town. If you are town, then wherever scum are, they are sitting back relaxing while you sit unsure of your reads. If you're unsure of your reads, then why aren't you asking questions, prodding,

scumhunting

.

[acryon]

I AM ASKING QUESTIONS. WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?

Go ahead and show me the questions you have asked today that really showed you were scumhunting. Don't worry; I already looked so it won't take you long.

Also I get that this town has bought into emotion as a defense but I can't imagine it will work for you too.

[acryon]

Explain your twos scum read of dier?

Yep, there's the one (although it's as a response to other people asking you about your reason for sucmreading Mario, so it's not quite proactive). Any others?

[acryon]

I AM ASKING QUESTION

S

. WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?

[acryon]

Do you think you cant lynch cryon because his scum partners refuse to or other reasons?

I tbink this was yesterday but yea.
Maybe it wasnt many questions but you paint mw as having absolutely none >.<

Lol it's not that "it wasnt many questions"; it was

one

question and it's even debatable to give you credit for that since it was only because other people inquired about your scumreads in the first place. Do I really have to explain to you how asking one question in a day doesn't look like scumhunting?

[acryon]

Do you think you cant lynch cryon because his scum partners refuse to or other reasons?

I tbink this was yesterday but yea.
Maybe it wasnt many questions but you paint mw as having absolutely none >.<

Yes, this was yesterday. You're so desperate to find content and evidence of scumhunting that you find one additional question that isn't even from today?

[acryon]

virtual vote acryon

OMGUS?

[acryon]

FWIW others, I am really feeling a dwlee lynch today. So while I would be satisfied with MM, I would like the townies to consider dwlee.

[acryon]

Day doesn't seem to be doing much, I say we go for a lynch soonish.

I could also go Dwlee, but more feeling mario currently.

Commitment to vote mario.

The bold is so very terribly bad. One mislynch and the game is over.

One

. I don't understand the idea of just accepting our fate with four days left. Why is MM most likely to be scum? Why would dwlee be scum?

[acryon]

VOTE: Acryon

I will vote Marcell as well

Feel free to virtual vote, but don't be dumb here and actual vote. If you are town, scum can just sheep you and we lose.

[acryon]

I believe the scum-team here is most likely dwlee, MM4, FA, with my confidence in each being in that order.

[acryon]

@Frozen: Explain to me again why dwlee is town. You said your reasoning before is that "this is not how he plays scum" and that's a terrible backing for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that this is Day 4 and you don't carry a meta-read this long. Meta should be null anyway, but at most it should be used as a tiebreaker in your read, not the crux of it.

[acryon]

Start reading some of his game

you will know what I mean if your town

which I doubt that

This is not a good enough or reasonable response at this point in the game. Like, you have to be kidding me if you are town right now.

Dier and bji: Please get in here and help. Not much time left so I am really hoping you guys can bring some sense into this.

[acryon]

(I think it's about 1000x more likely that Acryon is scum by himself than both FA and Acryon are scum)

lol this is not even close to "I think Acryon is scum and would vote him". Maybe it's the language barrier, but I don't see how you could possibly read that as even close to an endorsement of a vote.

[acryon]

I still favor a MM4 lynch today because of his play at the end of yesterday plus his play today. I can explain more if you really need me to, but I think I already explained my case against MM4 pretty well at least once already. I don't really even want to talk about second choices until someone explains to me why anyone is a better choice than MM4.

pedit: I certainly have

not

virtual voted Acryon. If it came down to a choice between FA and Acryon, as I already stated, I'd nail Acryon. However, that's not a choice that needs to be made today. MM4 is a much better lynch than betting the game on which, if any, of FA and Acryon are scum.

I believe dwlee to be a slightly better choice today due to the absolutely horrible way he handled every one of my questions and prods today, coupled with his general lack of scumhunting the entire game. Thoughts? Specifically on our engagement today as well if you could.

[acryon]

Yo bji, acryon made a crappy case built around the same stuff he has been doing. Lynchylynch?

Thank God bji is a smarter person than you are apparently giving him credit for.

[acryon]

I still favor a MM4 lynch today because of his play at the end of yesterday plus his play today. I can explain more if you really need me to, but I think I already explained my case against MM4 pretty well at least once already. I don't really even want to talk about second choices until someone explains to me why anyone is a better choice than MM4.

pedit: I certainly have

not

virtual voted Acryon. If it came down to a choice between FA and Acryon, as I already stated, I'd nail Acryon. However, that's not a choice that needs to be made today. MM4 is a much better lynch than betting the game on which, if any, of FA and Acryon are scum.

I believe dwlee to be a slightly better choice today due to the absolutely horrible way he handled every one of my questions and prods today, coupled with his general lack of scumhunting the entire game. Thoughts? Specifically on our engagement today as well if you could.

Dwlee is definitely in my pool of scum candidates already before today. I agree that he has shown a startling lack of scum hunting this game and has not defended himself really at all against that accusation today. There are others that the same criticism could be levelled at though (such as Marcrell), but obviously we have counter examples of where a lack of scum hunting doesn't always equal scum (Mala was the poster child of this).

I have much bigger problems with MM4:

- His post 2402 really bothered me. The justification for voting Mala all of a sudden was "information" when he had basically not interacted with her at all in the game and this just seems like a completely made up justification to me.
- His top scum reads at the end of day 2 were Dierfire, Marcrell, and Mala. But now he's virtually voting for Acryon on a virtual wagon that is at virtual L-1? The word that keeps coming up in my mind over and over again every time MM4 takes any significant action is, opportunistic.
- I thought the whole argument about whether or not Voyeur was more likely scum vs. town was complete bunk and MM4 was the main proponent of the "Voyeur is scum" side of that. I can't see a reasonable town player suggesting that Voyeur was more likely scum than town in this game, let alone pushing the argument.

I do agree with all of this, and I would be willing to go for MM4 today. I personally feel slightly better about Dwlee, but I think it's very likely both are scum so the order isn't particularly important.

Consider this a virtual vote on MM4.

[acryon]

I'm glad bji already addressed your post Dier. In full agreement with him on it.

[acryon]

Yea I have extreme trouble finding mm4 scum with acryon which means mm4 is town.

lol when did I become confscum to you? It seems right about the time I was questioning you today. So why again am I scum? It appears you and FA have the same reasons for scumreading me, which are...

[acryon]

You're pushing me for stuff marcrell and yourself are doing. You accuse me of not scumhunting (I have btw..) but all you've been doing in thread is arguing with frozen and then pushing mislynches.

This is not an accurate portrayal of what happened. And how have I pushed mislynches? I was against the supercool lynch and against the mala lynch. And while I was complicit in the RC lynch because I bought RP's idea, I certainly wasn't pushing it. That is just a patently false accusation.

[acryon]

You were not against a supercool lynch. I just ctrl+f'd your iso for "super".

I was pushing hard for an FA lynch most of the day, and mentioned countless times how I thought it was a way better option for us than a SC lynch. Was a vehemently against the idea of a SC lynch? No, which is why you won't find that from doing a simple search. But it's clear by where my vote stood and my discussion of lynch options that I was against it. And

even if I wasn't

, my point still stands that it is false that I was

pushing

mislynches.

[acryon]

All youve been doing is arguing with frozen and now me >.<

I've done a good bit of that for good reason I believe, but it's clear by my ISO that this is far from all I've been doing.

[acryon]

Like I don't see pointing out things like that as townie when it's just some nonsense bs.

That was definitely the smallest of my reasons, but I do still believe it to be a reason, especially considering her posting was the same in style, content and coherence to normally.

[acryon]

Like I don't see pointing out things like that as townie when it's just some nonsense bs.

And why didn't you have a problem with me doing that before? That was quite some time ago, but now all of a sudden I am scum for it? Hmmm.

[acryon]

Prodge, actual good stuff maybe comes tomorrow.

But I thought we weren't doing this whole talk all day thing because scum was almost half.

But I see people starting to turn towards voting me, please don't I don't want to lose the game.

When did we ever decide this?

[acryon]

Prodge, actual good stuff maybe comes tomorrow.

But I thought we weren't doing this whole talk all day thing because scum was almost half.

But I see people starting to turn towards voting me, please don't I don't want to lose the game.

"I thought we were just going to lynch someone, not talk about it all day" wth...

[acryon]

Hey guys,

I will be around for the next 8 hours or so but then won't be around from then until deadline, so hopefully we can come to a consensus by then. Before I leave, I will be placing a vote on either dwlee or MM4, and will decide before then. I know you prefer a MM4 lynch bji, but what is keeping you from a dwlee one?

[acryon]

- I thought the whole argument about whether or not Voyeur was more likely scum vs. town was complete bunk and MM4 was the main proponent of the "Voyeur is scum" side of that. I can't see a reasonable town player suggesting that Voyeur was more likely scum than town in this game, let alone pushing the argument.

I do want to remind you too bji that dwlee also pushed this argument, to the point of saying "I think acryon's claim was actually a scum claim".

[acryon]

I know you prefer a MM4 lynch bji, but what is keeping you from a dwlee one?

Because we're in LYLO and I want to lynch my top read. Also I can't decide who I like less, Marcrell or Dwlee.

Fair enough. Expect me to place a hard vote on MM4 in about 5 hours.

[acryon]

Actually is there any reason for me to not do it now if I will have to do it anyway?

[acryon]

Yo bji and acryon wy are you ok with being on a wagon with marcrell who you are scum reading?

Marcrell is currently the person I am 4th most suspecting of being scum. Not to mention, even if we are lynching scum today, it would benefit the scumteam to bus some amount for the very point you're making.

[acryon]

Actually is there any reason for me to not do it now if I will have to do it anyway?

Well we're only at "virtual L-1" as far as I know. This is why I wanted to have more rigorous vote counting procedures so that we could have a clearer picture of what we're doing. I guess I'll try again?

Here's the count as far as I can tell. If I'm wrong, please correct this by REPOSTING IT WITH CORRECTIONS.

--- cut here --------------------
UNOFFICIAL VOTE COUNT 4.1:

MarioManiac4 - bji, acryon, Marcrell (L - 1)
Dierfire - (L - 4)
Frozen Angel - (L - 4)
Dwlee99 - (L - 4)
acryon - Frozen Angel, Dwlee99 (L - 2)
bji - (L - 4)
Marcrell - (L - 4)

Not voting: MarioManiac4, Dierfire
--- cut here --------------------

I agree, but the point is I am leaving later today and won't be back, so I have to actual vote before then. Obviously we would have hoped for a better consensus before now, but this group is too split (and understandably so considering 3/7 are scum).

[acryon]

Yo bji and acryon wy are you ok with being on a wagon with marcrell who you are scum reading?

Because bussing is a thing.

pedit: I didn't realize that acryon. I thought you were saying you'd be back before deadline, but I guess I misread. Yeah I don't really see any point in waiting on an MM4 vote.

Yeah wish I could say for sure that I will be able to be on before deadline, but I can't so I'd rather not risk it. Actually looks like I have to leave now, so crossing my fingers.

VOTE: MarioManic4

[acryon]

Yo bji and acryon wy are you ok with being on a wagon with marcrell who you are scum reading?

Marcrell is currently the person I am 4th most suspecting of being scum. Not to mention, even if we are lynching scum today, it would benefit the scumteam to bus some amount for the very point you're making.

no.
if scum lynch one more town they win. do you understand? if one town votes town, scum win. there is no reason for them to bus instead of going for the win.

Obviously choice A is to go for the win, but if it's clear that the town is coming together toward a scum then they may sacrifice today for a better chance at winning tomorrow.

@Frozen

That vote from acryon forces a choice between MM4 and acryon, not MM4 and Dwlee.

I would still be up for dwlee, but bji seems to have made up his mind re: MM4, so it can't go through without him.

[acryon]

Very clear now guys that MM is scum, and most likely dwlee/FA are his partners.

[acryon]

Also FA/dwlee, if either of you are town, don't be dumb and vote here, because the game ends. If you're both scum, then go right ahead

[acryon]

So help me if either of you are town, I will pay your tuition to an Intro to being Town college class after this game.

[acryon]

It's not strictly impossible, but acryon/Frozen/Dwlee seems unlikely here as well.

I don't think anyone had this as their scumteam anyway, but yeah, impossible. Do the right thing here Dier.

[acryon]

I will pay your tuition to an Intro to being Town college class after this game.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=64429 found and lynched mage in day 1
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=64520 found the scum in day 1 - lynched her in day 2
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=64215 found the scum as soon as I replaced in. won without a mislynch
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=64753 lynched scum recruiter in day 1 - took the bullet in night and vengkilled the other one in night 1
viewtopic.php?f=110&t=64831 found all the scum in day 2

Then what happened this game?

[acryon]

and I lost credibility a bit becuase of my drunk fake claim in day 2

You lost credibility a while before that FWIW. But we can save that for another time. I shouldn't have made the comment I did, but just consider it a show of confidence in my feelings of you two being scum.

[acryon]

Come on....

[acryon]

Ughhh could we have had worse luck this game?! Two PRs dead by D2, the only inno we get is on the Godfather, and then our last good PR does a stupid fakeclaim.

[acryon]

Yeah I said early on that if we just happened to have bad enough luck to check and inno the one and only Godfather in addition to losing our other PRs, we were screwed anyway. Don't think we could afford to not believe it.

[acryon]

I like the sound of "you didn't lose" but I'm afraid of the "you'll see why later" part.

Me too

[acryon]

I was really town

I was really drunk

and you were really like scum acryon

Eh I probably pushed on you too hard, but honestly, please don't play when you are drunk because that messed up a good bit of stuff for town.

[acryon]

I call it a tie personally because the mod error. We were told that RC was cop even though we shouldn't have been told that because of ascetic.

what was your team?

Dwlee - MM4 - bji

Ugh I should have looked into your unwillingness on bji a little more. But honestly I just made the decision to trust you either way so we were screwed.

[acryon]

Yeah, I mean we did get beat a bit by variance this game, but two townies fakeclaiming along with several town lurkers didn't help ><

[acryon]

Oh well always something to learn from. And bji/MM4 especially played this last day really well.

[acryon]

Yeah, I mean we did get beat a bit by variance this game, but two townies fakeclaiming along with several town lurkers didn't help ><

continue blaming me for that.

continue doing that

I don't care about game result

if I knew you were town I would have vote you for this

I understand you didn't do it on purpose, but fakeclaiming as town in 99.9% of circumstances is still a mistake, and still bad for town. I'm not trying to make you feel bad for something that already happened, but everybody should walk away from this game with a firm reminder to not fakeclaim as town.

[acryon]

I was shitting bricks trying to think of how I was going to explain being in a three way with Acryon and FA at the end, which is where I thought the game was going.

Haha yeah I mean there's always the WIFOM of leaving you alive to make us suspect you, but TBH I probably would have voted you if we got down to the 3 of us. FA was down to my #3 at the end there.

[acryon]

Yeah still a fun game, because even the frustrating parts do make things really interesting.

[acryon]

Seriously though; ITT: why godfather is a bad role.

lol well I mean we really got beat bad by our ONE cop check being an inno on the GF.

[acryon]

Also we had scum chat the whole time. Dwlee was encryptor. Helped alot with coordination.

pedit: yeah, your luck could not have been worse. Mario investigated the ascetic cop and we were told he was cop even though we shouldn't have been. Ascetic cop investigated the godfather. Town lynched the doctor and we lucked into a NK of the only other significant town role (Keyser).

lol yeah this was not great for us. Our first mistake was the quickhammer D1 before giving SC a chance to claim.

[acryon]

That makes sense as to why the Mod would have been sending you results about Radiant's role, I guess.

So mostly the Voyeur is supposed to confirm Town claims, I guess. Probably the best strategy was to target those likely to draw investigation or protection? I'm not really sure.

Right, I mean ultimately it was useless unless I would have looked at bji N1.

[acryon]

Yeah ugh, anyway well played scum and I will learn from this game!

[acryon]

I like Acryon as a player, I think he is a very decent person and has fine deductive skills, maybe reading emotion could use some improvement tho? Also you bit on my silly day 1 FA-RolePlay case

Yeah I have been known to make some crazy connections before so I totally bought in! And yeah I'm generally someone that just pushes emotion out of things, so I do so especially in mafia because you can never really trust people for a number of reasons. Something I need to look into more. I appreciate the thoughts!

[acryon]

Don't feel bad about this game FA. We all made mistakes and the elements were against us. Best of all, we can still be friends

[acryon]

Wasn't I 3 for 3 on scum in my final post?

Well you said to kill Titus if bji was godfather, but you were close!

[acryon]

If Jake didn't mod error and FA didn't counterclaim me as VT, this would have been a different game.

All I'm saying.

Then you'll never win I guess. If you're not better at convincing your town brethren that you're right than your scum opponents are at convincing them that you're wrong ... you're doomed from the start.

FA counterclaimed cop as vanilla townie and got me lynched.

You got mod error which skewed your reactions; you can bet the reactions would have been even more damning if you didn't know whether I was cop or not.

I mean you won, but don't act like I played anything but exemplary in everything but the supercool hammer.

Eh, you shouldn't have claimed in the first place. Obviously the counterclaim was much worse, but the claim was bad.

[acryon]

Fakeclaiming as town is BAD, especially if you are an actual PR!

[acryon]

I never counterclaimed him

NEVER DID THAT

Well you did...

oh god I'm soft claiming a pr. that was I was sure that your not really a cop and for god sake don't ask me why I didn't counter claimed you because that means a hard claim ...