Mini 1749: Classic Rock Mafia: Game Over!

[Aj The Epic]

Through like 5 pages.

I think frozen is town. Reasoning can't be said yet though, because rules and shit.

I agree, frozen is town.

Explain this Radja vote AI.

Ironically for being one of the less active players. Just see it as a random vote.

This is scum. A random vote when Matt's wagon is already going, no comment EVEN WHEN PRODDED? Dude's as scum as scum come. He has little awkward feet getting into the game and then can't even take the time to give his own thoughts when pressed.

Hello everyone! It's nice to see some familiar names, and nice to see some new friends as well.

VOTE: AlwaysInnocent
I don't like that he took two hours to read the game and still went with a random vote in 60 without commenting on anything that he read.

@MattP

Why in 11 did you ask Dwlee about his vote and not Garmr?

I've mixed feelings on Taly and the Miller claim, but his approach seems sound and I can see clear motivation to read other players in his interactions with Frozen and AlwaysInnocent.

I like Aero's activity level interaction with Garmr and his activity level. I'm still trying to decide whether I trust that enough to also trust his read on Frozen, who thus far hasn't said much of importance and seemed a little off in 34. Specifically the time stamps don't really support her claim to have had something written up when Garmr posted 28.

Okay, so I agree with the votes on dier after reading this post.
>Suggest scum Taly.
>Scum reading AlwaysInnocent(I agree, but still)
>Suggesting Aero is town, BUT he only 'trusts his read' on FA and then gives reason that he doesn't trust it.
And while it looks like he trys to call Gamr town, there's a double standard on Matt for prodding Dwlee, not gamr. This suggests he's suspicious of a pairing of matt/Gamr. So we come away with 4 scum reads in varying certainty or actual accusation in one post. Only one easy town read. This guy should DEFINITELY be pressed.

[Aj The Epic]

5 scum reads, sorry. He's still considering FA as a chance for scum. Too many avenues left open for future lynches.

[Aj The Epic]

5 scum reads, sorry. He's still considering FA as a chance for scum. Too many avenues left open for future lynches.

Or possibility that he just honestly sees that many players acting like scum?
I don't think scum play like that normally.

Scum have more scum reads so they can push more. An easy way to spot town is find someone posting town reads, keeping the town reads as town and being consistent with those reads. Scum are more affluent in null or conditionally town players and tend to leave doors open for different wagons by having more scum reads. Perfect? No. But definitely something that happens consistently enough to be noticed.

[Aj The Epic]

Yea, actually, before this day ends here, I'd like to revert my read on FA back to null, for the record. I'm no longer really sure about that.[/quote]ftr 269 by Lowell is bad for multiple reasons. 270 by AI is even worse. On lowell, specifically his idea that scum would claim miller any other time but first post when there's only two correct methodologies of miller: Claim first post or save it and eat rope later if investigated. Multiple other differences in opinion with him. Anyways AI probably didn't even read the wall very thoroughly because he has NO RESPONSE and then only lean town? Of all the things you should respond to, THAT'S the post.

Quick response to Taly's 274

Matt didn't downplay gamr's 258 at all. His response is there to state that gamr is a major part of the issue in this case as he's unwilling to adjust his opinion.I don't understand how you're taking that post as Matt just letting it go because he simply wouldn't have responded. Yes, it's passive-aggressive but it's enough to make the point.

To current time!

>Suggesting Aero is town, BUT he only 'trusts his read' on FA and then gives reason that he doesn't trust it.

Sure, sure, something's changed between the two times. However, at the time FA has no major reason to be doubted for town. So my point still stands: Lots of casted suspicions, very little town reading.

[Aj The Epic]

Sorry it got misquoted. I was just stating at that time, Dier's wishy-washy approach to FA was unwarranted.

[Aj The Epic]

Who do you think we should lynch, AJ?

Currently, AI. However, a patch of posts he made around page 13 made me consider he might just be a stick in the mud and not necessarily scum. If not him, dier.

[Aj The Epic]

UNVOTE:

I thought I wasn't voting so...

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: AlwaysInnocent

This is a very, very safe bet for scum along with dier.

[Aj The Epic]

So I want to flesh this out because I'm sold on the flip and now Lowell's flip that AI is scum. I read threads backwards on re-reads, so post order yada yada.

Anyway. The scum pool is:

Mathilda, Dierfire, Firebringer, Ira.

If I am missing one scum then Lowell.

2 issues: 0/2 and nice way to park his ass on vote after vote without needing explanation. Wouldn't be a problem if his reads were well developed but:

Someone hammer and end this thing.

Agreed.

I have been re-reading Mathilda's other games (both town and scum), and I am still confident that she is scum.

Not that meta is completely reliable, but I think it is good as a confirmation.

This isn't 'well developed' at all. Did he actually read those games? Who knows. Point is, he hasn't given any reason WHY he believes Matilda to be scum. This makes it very easy to press a dishonest and indefensible assertion. Not only this, he asserts he's read multiple games! And not ONE point of analysis? Come on! Scumfuckery all around when you can't even explain why you think someone is SO SCUM that you say you see NO WAY that they're town.

Well big boy, she was town.

Hmm. I'm not sure. Inconsistency isn't necessarily alignment indicative. I know that I can be pretty chaotic.

But after having re-read Frozen Angel's ISO, I think I am putting her at null for now. Her reactions are just terrible.

(See there's nothing wrong with initially townreading people, as long as you can revise your reads on them.)

And this bullshit. So let's give context, AI generally keeps his cute little reads lists of super safe green reads and no explanation behind it that everyone for whatever asinine reason likes to say "Sure I agree with ___ but ___ is null/scum". Why the hell does no one say "Give me a goddamn reason"? Reads lists are absolute shit with no reason. They're not worth the time it took to copy and paste names and add fancy little colors because you know what? His reads are so damn safe and in line with the rest of the town that it's basically saying "HEY I'M A CONFORMIST EVERYONE IGNORE ME PLEASE".

So now coming out and putting FA to null, with NO REASON outside Mattp himself saying something? He even disagrees with it and then basically states "Whatever I disagree with your entire premise but she's still null". "Her reactions are just terrible"? Can you please be bothered to quote a post?

Oh and that snarky bullshit "Nothing wrong with townreading as long as you revise it" is hilarious considering that as scum, your town pool NEEDS to shrink so you can constantly lynch more. No, town are very, very consistent in reads and will have logic behind a change. Your change is the last thing from fluid, it is COUNTER INTUITIVE.

So this is one scum down. The next order of business is to go dig up Mattp's reads. It's good to NKA this kill due to possible mafia fear or reads or both. It's a real travesty when people simply ignore the reads of others. We can do it with Lowell as well but 99% chance that Mattp shot him.

[Aj The Epic]

Are you... blind? I'm a replacement for Rajda and I posted plenty towards the end of last day.

[Aj The Epic]

Then, take some time to respond to my post because this answer isn't acceptable. Overconfidence is not the issue here. Your constant refusal to give REASON for anything you say is. I'm on a brutal hotstreak right now on catching scum so I'm not going to take this as a replacement for an acceptable response.

[Aj The Epic]

@fire Best lies have a good dose of truth, so his read lists probably would end up with a scum buddy dying along the way if we followed it perfectly. I don't see a reason why the two couldn't be paired.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm just going to role my eyes and hope someone notes that 999 is exactly what I'm talking about. Is there a universally controversial read there outside his placement of himself?

Do you still think Aeronaut is scum? If not, who?

Yes, Aeronaut is scum, not sure on any other scum.

No. Bad fire.

[Aj The Epic]

So do I really need to talk about what makes someone town?

A.) You do not explain anything.
B.) Your reads lists do not attempt to bring anything new to the table
C.) the times you change reads are unexplained or not fluid.

[Aj The Epic]

A. Not true. I do try to explain my reads. Sometimes I present my list before my reasons, but that is just a new (town) tactic I am trying out in several games.
B. Um. If necessary, I try to bring "something new to the table", but in this case it seems you agree with me. So what's the problem?
C. This is basically a repetition of A. What do you mean by "not fluid", though?

Everything here was talked about more indepth in my first post which you so easily brushed off and never challenged any part of it.

@Fire, burden of proof that he's guilty lies on you, not me to prove his innocence. Show ME what makes him guilty here.

[Aj The Epic]

I never called fire bad. I think it's a bad route to pursue and I think that's perfectly clear in my response post. I can't prove his innocence any more than you can 'prove' his guilt. However, I'm not interested in wasting my time writing a case for protecting a townie when I can just go kill scum instead.

[Aj The Epic]

So this is your scum game.

[Aj The Epic]

Yes, I remember it. I had you pinned by the hammer but you killed me. I replaced in, too...

I drifted in and out of Reckoner's game where you were scum and I pointed out the antagonistic similarities between the two games but died to that dumb vig. However, you have a lack of reads for scum outside this one but make a mistake to not vote? I think town-you leads the vote immediately whereas this seemed like testing the water on a somewhat unpopular read.

I haven't seen your tell-tale antagonistic qualities yet and that coupled with the fact that AI is far and away more significantly scum (and probably even getting some coaching right now) is going to save me from pushing a wagon there right now.

[Aj The Epic]

Wait...I have tell tale on antagonism? Thats kind of depressing.

As scum, you definitely get antagonistic or super argumentative. Even if it was partially scum theater, you were that way with BBmola and definitely that way when facing whoever else was in the first game.

Just like Dwlee can't keep his reads in line when scum and takes advantages of situations with almost no cover. Or, what I think is one of Frozen's scum traits, not quite letting go of fluff posting and hanging on too long before actively engaging. Or at least time past what it takes for everyone else. These are all traits I've started to look for when I'm reading you along with my own set of beliefs for how scum act.

@Garmr: That's your problem to sort out in your hood. Because a.) I don't even know who you're with and b.) We're not going to be reading it. Anything said in there is up to your own skills to be sorted and basically it falls on your shoulders to sort your partner properly.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Dierfire

I'll take it, I guess.

[Aj The Epic]

they aren't bad at all, because this will take a scum down.

[Aj The Epic]

I also really don't trust aj the epic for some reason.

I'm not going to let you be the biggest shade thrower in the game and get away with this. You need reasons to have permission for this. Completely unacceptable to go "Yeah invalidate his opinion, I don't trust him 'for some reason'."

[Aj The Epic]

I also really don't trust aj the epic for some reason.

I'm not going to let you be the biggest shade thrower in the game and get away with this. You need reasons to have permission for this. Completely unacceptable to go "Yeah invalidate his opinion, I don't trust him 'for some reason'."

I feel as if I do not understand the motivation behind this comment.

Are you saying that you have a problem with Garmr's playstyle (which would not be indicative of alignment), or find this "shade throwing" indicative of him being scum-aligned? I would lean towards you intending the latter interpretation, but some of the wording doesn't suggest that. The idea of "having permission" doesn't really make sense and seems like an outside aspect of the game unrelated to alignment. Same with "completely unacceptable", it sounds like you're attacking his playstyle here.

However, I would like to say that I disagree with you and think that openly admitting that you distrust someone but aren't sure why shows transparency and is indicative of Garmr being town-aligned. It's pretty abysmal as a form of shade-throwing since he is not making a case at all, so it's going to have minimal affect on others' opinion of you. Therefore I don't think the intention was to underhandedly cast doubt on you.

Shade-throwing as opposed to a straight up accusation is indicative of scum being too afraid of being tied into an argument and thus trying to get away with just doubting a slot or taking away from their legitimacy without actually making a case. Which is why he has no permission to do so. If he wants to pull the bullshit of "I have doubts", which guess what? It's a mafia game and we all do, get some better reasons.

You are completely wrong that 'having doubts' and admitting them in a mafia game shows town. It is so far from it because guess what? SCUM WISH TO SHOW that they have doubts since they know most everything outside specific roles. This lip service isn't town at all. So that line isn't going to work. The whole point is he gets a discredit in a short post which is almost incontestable on any grounds and doesn't need to back it up with reasoning.

[Aj The Epic]

Nothing in my post suggested I like policy lynches or view them the same as a normal lynch. I don't know where you've messed up your ability to read that correctly as the word 'lynch' never even came up. Garmr made a bad post, I'm calling him for it and you somehow think that announcing baseless paranoia is town.

[Aj The Epic]

Aj is getting to worked up on how he perceived means he is most likely scum. I mean his scum game is pretty low grade and amateurish but his probably scum.

Aj all my posts are better than yours.

A.) Pot meet kettle.

B.) VOTE: Gamr for straight up misrepresenting what I said. I CLEARLY DESCRIBED that my issue is that he's throwing shade with nothing to back it up and feigning his own 'concern', which is a scum trait. Now you're twisting my words because you got called on your own bullshit.

[Aj The Epic]

I don't know under what world's rules you think yourself unlynchable.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Dierfire

Pissass sheep on me.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Dierfire

Pissass sheep on me.

Please lynch this

Give me one good reason why Dier's vote is acceptable. You haven't interacted with me once this entire game and now you want to come out with a lynch.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Dierfire

I'll take it, I guess.

why you were voting him ?

D1 I stated that he was probably scum with AI.

[Aj The Epic]

Don't know why that quote was there, but @AJ, has nothing really changed since D1 that much that you're fun voting someone based on that? Like, we've had a scum flip and various other reactions.

I carried it through d2 and had no time in d3 before you voted me? I still think Dier is scum because it more or less seems like fire got caught d1 and eventually town just decided to lynch him. I was going to have an issue with the hammer but it's whatever. My position with AI is under question since his posturing near the end of d2 matches what I did as town when I got cold feet on a fast wagon on scum, even though I led that wagon.

Wtf is aesthetic again?

[Aj The Epic]

Was Firebringer a PGO for scum?

Town has one negative utility claimed, a neutral utility (neighbor) and essential doc (BP bodyguard). Cop+Vig both positive/positive-neutral, but Aesthetic deflects against the cop/doc/neighbor? Generally you should have decent overall town power, so I'm with Aero here. It seems like a scum claim given that with it, town has neutral power at night at best.

[Aj The Epic]

I don't see the reason to continue this game. A case here... isn't really needed. There's contradictions and a role that doesn't add up. I'm willing to end this day any time, as I don't see any reason to continue this day.

[Aj The Epic]

This game isn't going to survive 10 days.

VOTE: ABR

This is L-1. I see no reason to keep him, we're just beating around the bush and not getting anything done today. An aesthetic for town makes zero sense given our roles.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: dier

I skimmed through the entire FA/Gamr thing, I feel it's irrelevant as of right now. It's highly likely to be dier anyways.

[Aj The Epic]

Why are we not including Dier here?

[Aj The Epic]

@Aj

Where's your read on AlwaysInnocent right now?

Still sitting around scum, but not as high as you. The reason it's lower is there's a lot of posting that could simply be him getting cold feet and being indecisive as opposed to scum.

[Aj The Epic]

There is a higher likelihood of it being Dier. We're ignoring a lot of what happened D1, where he pulled a town read on Aero for nothing at all. In 91 he allows himself a lot of 'to-be' scum reads but oddly not even one of our scum was mentioned. In later days, he's had bullshit moments of sheeping (aka on gamr when gamr was having an issue getting my arguments in order)

@AlwaysInnocent
I'm just about out of patience with this. Why is your vote always on Town wagons and never on Mafia wagons? Do I need to rethink my read on you?

This feels like a scum claim. The thing with AI is his reads now have picked 1 for 4, and he's been on neither of the inevitable scum lynches. I would definitely expect him to have been on FB's wagon since he had his own vocal displeasure if he was scum just for conformity sake. FB and ABR both were inevitiable in their own ways so not only is Dier making something out of nothing,

Oddly enough, Dier doubts the fact that ABR's aesthetic could be scum (asking Aero to explain) but votes ABR in the same breath anyways.

The POE in 1378:

@Davesaz

Unless Aj and AlwaysInnocent are both Mafia, at least one of the players on Firebringer's wagon should have been Mafia. Which one looked most suspicious to you?

Isn't helpful in the least. It's almost asking for an excuse for another sheep vote. there's a much higher chance that Dier is scum over AI.

[Aj The Epic]

Appealing to a hood when you're suspect #1 is manipulative. There's no need to try and bar off the game from the conversation right now.

[Aj The Epic]

Spoiler: Aj

There is a higher likelihood of it being Dier. We're ignoring a lot of what happened D1, where he pulled a town read on Aero for nothing at all. In 91 he allows himself a lot of 'to-be' scum reads but oddly not even one of our scum was mentioned. In later days, he's had bullshit moments of sheeping (aka on gamr when gamr was having an issue getting my arguments in order)

I could sort of see you thinking that I was just following Garmr, although you don't seem to wonder why Garmr doesn't believe that. The answer is that I was pushing for your lynch in the Neighborhood. It sort of seems like you forgot that you can ask people to explain their actions. I'm not exactly sure that it makes you Mafia, but it's at least lazy.

@AlwaysInnocent
I'm just about out of patience with this. Why is your vote always on Town wagons and never on Mafia wagons? Do I need to rethink my read on you?

This feels like a scum claim. The thing with AI is his reads now have picked 1 for 4, and he's been on neither of the inevitable scum lynches. I would definitely expect him to have been on FB's wagon since he had his own vocal displeasure if he was scum just for conformity sake. FB and ABR both were inevitiable in their own ways so not only is Dier making something out of nothing,

What was the end of this sentence?
I do regret losing my patience with AlwaysInnocent but I think that it's a fair question for him--he should really be wondering why his vote is never in the right place if he's Town.

Oddly enough, Dier doubts the fact that ABR's aesthetic could be scum (asking Aero to explain) but votes ABR in the same breath anyways.

That doesn't sound true to me at all. I didn't ask Aero to explain; I offered my explanation of why I was suspected ABR.

UNVOTE: Aj the Epic
VOTE: ABR

Aero justifiably wants me to stop stalling with this. I don't really see why the game needs a Mafia Ascetic but neither do I see why it needs a Town Ascetic.
If ABR is really a Town Ascetic I would expect him to be more suspicious of the Miller claim.

The POE in 1378:

@Davesaz

Unless Aj and AlwaysInnocent are both Mafia, at least one of the players on Firebringer's wagon should have been Mafia. Which one looked most suspicious to you?

Isn't helpful in the least. It's almost asking for an excuse for another sheep vote. there's a much higher chance that Dier is scum over AI.

Again, there's this odd obsession with the idea that I'm just following other people's votes which is not really in evidence. It's possibly an exaggerated response to my initial D2 vote?

Appealing to a hood when you're suspect #1 is manipulative. There's no need to try and bar off the game from the conversation right now.

Could you explain whom I would be trying to manipulate and how? It doesn't make much sense to me. I agree that the private conversations aren't especially useful at this time, which is sort of the point of my offer to move the discussion into the main thread.

So I guess that, on balance, being lazy isn't really alignment-indicative (I've been pretty lazy myself over the last few days). I'll vote for Aj because it looks like he went out of his way to scrape things that he could present as suspicious about me.

VOTE: Aj the Epic

except you ignore that I was SCUMREADING YOU DAY 1. There's no scraping cases, this is a CONSTANT thing.

[Aj The Epic]

@Aj

You'll forgive me for not following your lead, but you're treating every player other than me as clear, so I'm sort of reluctant to trust your impressions.

Yeah I forgive you. It's hard to self vote as last scum. My conviction and boredom are both tied to the fact that it's pretty obvious the game's over and you're scum. I've been harping on it since I replaced in, and frankly nothing you say makes me feel like you've made any point in need of being addressed.

[Aj The Epic]

How can you forgive him if he is pushing a mis lynch toward you

and he stated that was toward AI not you in next posts ...

Because it won't go through. And if it's for AI, it's whatever but both of us have reached the same conclusion.

[Aj The Epic]

If AI was scum, I'd expect him to be on the FB and ABR lynch for free town points when it became inevitable, much like one of the suspects...

[Aj The Epic]

In just over 150 posts, Dier has changed from AI being scum and me being town to me being scum and AI being town. Noticeably when AI lynch is nearly inevitable he's starting to call for it being town, but no sooner. Earlier he pretended to be all worked up here:

I'm just about out of patience with this. Why is your vote always on Town wagons and never on Mafia wagons? Do I need to rethink my read on you?

That leaves me with Aj and Davesaz, and I have reasons to read them both as Town.

And 2 posts later, no posts outside of his own to see, he votes for me. For a half-ass reason.

It isn't AI. It's Dier.

[Aj The Epic]

Aj : his todays post specially looks like he is failing so much. like he can't defend himself. he really wants to jump on others and just make a lynch happen.

Would you please take a moment to read my posts? There's not an OUNCE of truth here. I've wanted Dier dead since Day 1. I'm not jumping on lynches at all, I've stuck to the same one because I strongly believe he's scum. I 'can't' defend myself? How about I haven't even attempted to. There's NOTHING to defend because I'm right and my lack of motivation is waiting for you to make up your goddamn mind and finally kill of dier.

It's boring watching you fret your indecision.

[Aj The Epic]

I think that Aero and Garmr are probably Town.
I think that Davesaz is probably Town but his logic is wrong and it frustrates me because I can't correct the error if he won't show me where it is.
I think that AlwaysInnocent is probably Town but if he's the only lynch that we can get I'll go for it.
I don't know what Frozen is doing and I'm suspicious of the stalling action.
I think that Aj has a reasonable chance to be Mafia.

If we do end up lynching me today my recommendation will be to lynch Aj tomorrow as a matter of housekeeping and then probably Frozen in LYLO.

How do people not see this as scum? In what world can you give yourself THREE OPTIONS (which by the way, is how many scum would need in a 1 scum remaining world to put their victory in) and get away with FA dead fucking set that he's magically town. He literally said "I'll take EVERYONE'S suspicions and list them as a possible lynch for me". The reads are half assed, do not have any conviction and don't even have reason.

AI or AJ? Bullshit, FA, bullshit. You need to reconsider and just end the obv-scum's life.

[Aj The Epic]

I don't understand wanting to go for a miller at this point. Unless you see something to say that was just a gambit, I'm not a fan of lynching it.

[Aj The Epic]

My leaning has been you and Dier. I was wrong on dier so I'm being more cautious, but the only thought I had was if there was going to be two scum left, it would've been dier+FA. I don't think FA is scum with you, largely because Dier was the only questionable interactions that I associated with her. I don't see a case for dav, neither him nor his predecessor have concerned me. So currently I am inclined to believe it is you.

[Aj The Epic]

Two scum left? I assume there is only one scum left?

It was made yesterday (dier+FA being a possibility). I think because of the slip we're at a 1 scum game since FA doesn't have any connections left. And at that point, I want to believe it's you since I had you as scum from day 1.

[Aj The Epic]

I want to believe it's you since I had you as scum from day 1.

Just because you want to believe it doesn't make it true. I learned this the hard way with Dierfire.

You could've been 100x more convincing here by showing any sort of real concern.

+The fact that you too are not considering me as scum, at all. The way you talk to me suggests you believe me to be town, but your sentence wants you to imply some indecision on your own part. However, this contradicts yourself unless you're considering one or aero/fa scum.

[Aj The Epic]

So why not?
100% of the time, miller is town. That alone should sway you to the point of choosing someone else.

This is a crummy defense. Just because Taly claimed miller doesn't mean it's true. And you've done nothing the whole game to make you seem town.

Also, I did just finish a game as a scum miller and very nearly won it. The issue with comparing games is I fumbled how to play it, but it is inherently a very, very powerful role. The noticeable difference is that there was at least three investigative roles had in that game (1x Role cop, 2x naive cop (not sure if counts), 1x actual cop shot, and inventor who game 1x role cop).

In context of what roles exist, I think miller seems a bit weak a role with an every-other-day cop. But at the same time, ABR being so willing to push what is generally a fragile role is a bit disconcerting.

Aj where are you man?

whats your reads?

Is there really any reads to have here? There's only logic remaining on why someone can or cannot be scum, since we know the target SHOULD be within AI, me, Dave.

[Aj The Epic]

Easy game easy life?

VOTE: AI

I was actually more concerned about AI's alignment anyways.

[Aj The Epic]

*Aero's alignment