Mini Normal 1809: Game Over

[Wingback]

Hi everyone! It's late night for me so full catchup will have to be tomorrow but I'll read as much as I can today. If there's anything specific you want me to look at, let me know.

[Wingback]

Got extremely busy with another matter today so catchup will have to be delayed by one day.

@Egg, as it happens I'm aware of the "reaction test" you are attempting to do. I assume that if I immediately said "wait, I'm actually (X role)," then you'd be townreading me whereas if I looked at my predecessor's posts and ask where he claimed, that would be a reason to scumread me. Obviously, I'm not a vig but we already know that since we had two nights with only one kill.

But that brings up the question, why are you trying to get me to claim? Someone unaware of this "reaction test" could have easily blurted out their role.

[Wingback]

Read the first thirty pages (till the point where Robb self-destructed) and I'm very glad neither Rob nor House are still in the game and here are my initial impressions. Elyse and Grendel are fairly solid townreads.

While I do understand Hoopla's townread on BBMolla for the emotional appeals and even agreed with it at the time, he hasn't done much scumhunting at all and has been coasting by. Emotions can be faked if you are at least a decent player as scum so he's someone I want to look into more.

Not a fan of Hoopla coming down hard on Rob but not admonishing House in a similar manner. The state of the game is both of their responsibility, and while Rob came across as incredibly town, House was more ambiguous and at times, looked like he was just fueling the flames. I also agree with Grendel that he was dodgy when Wake questioned him. I think he has escaped suspicion so far and KTS is someone I want to look into more when I catch up.

Blankface could go either way from what I've seen so far. I agree with the general sentiment that he stood on the sidelines of the Robb vs House argument but he did it so blatantly and even after being called out by several people that I'm second guessing myself. I think as scum, he would have stopped and at least attempted to appease the crowd by posting other content.

Don't have a strong opinion on Egg. I liked the initial push on Masquerade but his activity level is so low, I don't have much confidence in that read.

Going to take a break and come back and read the remaining twenty odd pages. It should hopefully go smoother given Robb's gone and I should be done in a few hours with more concrete thoughts. Feel free to engage me on what I've posted so far.

[Wingback]

Up to page 36. Not seeing Blankface as scum. Egg's catchup felt a lot like a scum of middling skill-level and experience catching up. A lot of agreement with reads and stances stated by others and overly wordy which looks like he was trying too hard to show his work rather than just read and compile thoughts.

UNVOTE:

In fact, I think Masquerade's Post 806 makes it pretty unlikely he's partnered with her. Masq was going with the momentum on the Blankface wagon. At that time, if she did nothing, it may not have taken off at all and a Vedith lynch would have been assured. But by turning Blankface into a viable wagon, she potentially loses a partner with not much cred to gain from it. Her naked vote wasn't even close to how much Elyse and Hoopla pushed Blankface so they'd be the ones getting cred. There's also no real downside to Masquerade staying on Vedith since that's who she was scumreading.

Currently looking at the pool of {Egg, BBMolla, Hoopla, KTS} for scum through POE.

@Hoopla,

I have a few questions for you: 1) Is your townread on BBMolla for the ATE early game still valid now? 2) Can you talk about your read on Egg? More specifically, I want your opinion about his catchup (Post 859, Post 865, and Post 866) which culminate in a vote for Masquerade and the people he ties to Masquerade in the process. 3) Mind commenting on my read on House and my concerns about him fueling Rob's self-destruction when he could have easily stepped back. What's your read based on?

[Wingback]

@Blank, BBmolla, Wingback Will any of you consider voting Hoopla???

No, and I want to discuss this more. Now that we have an indefinite deadline extension, it's in our best interest to go over the game with a fine toothed comb. I've caught up now and I'm townreading Hoopla. In fact, the only two people I'd bet the game on being town are you and Hoopla. If you want, I'm happy to go over your reasoning so we can talk about it more in depth.

I strongly suggest no one put anyone at L-1 anytime soon. You'll see a lot of content from me. KTS claiming he would trollhammer is getting ridiculous and I don't want to cut the day short.

[Wingback]

I'll outline a summary of my reads so everyone knows where my head is at and then I'll go over the cases/reasons against Hoopla. Grendel is obviously town so that needs no explanation.

Hoopla

has echoed my thoughts on the game several times. Her accusation that Egg is floating by giving "content" is absolutely dead-on as is her increasing paranoia over BBMolla being scum for not posting any content after her initial townread on him. It mirrored the exact same progression of read that I had on Molla, going from town for ATE -> maybe scum for lack of content or scumhunting -> probably town for how he revealed that he was in the neighborhood. Her play around the Masquerade wagon was actually ridiculously town. It didn't seem like she already knew Masq's alignment and was trying to look the best from it. Rather, it looked to me like she was genuinely trying to figure her out. Take for example Post 1010 and Post 1011. If she were scum with Masq, she'd know that it would make her look absolutely horrendous once Masq flips. She'd know that Masq has a short shelf life so she would be planning all her moves around the Masq flip. Hoopla certainly wouldn't have any delusions of taking Masq with her to endgame. Given that, I think Hoopla would bus here but the fact that she took such a risk and instead tries to kickstart an Egg wagon makes her way more likely to be town. Hoopla's play has consistently revolved around taking the optimal strategy in any given situation rather than follow her reads and has many times stated that she lacks confidence in her reads. From the standpoint of a player like Hoopla, not lynching Masq at this point is the better play purely based on numbers. Because then a hypothetical town-Masq could bring us back to an odd number of players, and if she's scum, that would be confirmed the next day. It makes zero sense for Hoopla to jump in there and put herself at risk of lynch simply to save a buddy for another day. That's exactly what happened. Masq flipped scum and Hoopla looked absolutely horrible from a superficial standpoint. But following Hoopla's thought process, it makes perfect sense to me. Then after Grendel claimed, it made more sense to lynch Masq and Hoopla correctly pushed it. In fact, I think we should be looking more at the people who weren't giving due consideration to the possibility of a Masq-townflip because they're going for maximum cred. There are too many of those so I'll be analyzing all of this in my next few posts after I breakdown the cases against Hoopla.

KTS

is probably town for his easygoing, devil-may-care style and I also like his not taking the bait and jumping on the major wagons, voting Elyse instead. I wouldn't bet anything on it though.

BBMolla

is more likely town than not but I really want to see him get into the game and contribute actual scumhunting thoughts.

Blankface:

I still think Masquerade's jump onto Blankface on D1 makes him more likely town but that's a tenuous reason and I think he fits with Elyse as a partner. I really want to see a replacement before making a call on this slot.

Elyse

was a player I was townreading earlier but I very much dislike her attack on Hoopla. I find the reasons very weak and superficial.

Egg:

I went over why I suspect Egg and unlike Hoopla, I'm not convinced at all that his offer to be lynched himself is a significant towntell. It came at an odd time when there was no real need for resignation and looked more like an emotional appeal.

[Wingback]

@Grendel,

from your Post 1209, it seems like the main reasons you are scumreading Hoopla for are: 1) That she unvoted Masquerade too soon despite Masq not claiming whether she used her shot. 2) That she was too quick to accept that Masq's claim was provable despite Masq never revealing whether he used his shot or not. 3) That she said a roleblocker was unlikely, speculated that there could be a rolestopper instead and used that to scumread Elyse. 4) That Hoopla suspected BBMolla at the start of D3.

1) Hoopla's unvote makes sense if she didn't want a potential town vig to be lynched before she had time to think through and analyze the game. I see it more as Hoopla being cautious and covering her bases since Masq was at L-1 before Egg unvoted and you had already stated intent to hammer in few hours. Hoopla could always revote Masquerade if she still thought Masq was scum after thinking it through so I see the unvote as pro-town and not scummy at all. It seemed she unvoted to give Masq time to claim without being hammered at any second before she could come back to claim.

2) Masq claimed 1X vig and there was only one kill on night one. It seems reasonable to wonder if Masq was saving his shot for a later day. While it's entirely possible for a hypothetical town-Masq to have shot the same target as the scum, the odds are much lower than the probability that Masq was holding onto the shot for later use. Hoopla enquiring about it seemed like a way to make the most optimal move. One thing I think you should realize is that

you knew Masq was scum as soon as he claimed vig.

He claimed your role. But from Hoopla's standpoint, having no idea whether Masq was scum fake-claiming or whether we had just run up the town vig, the logical choice was to wait and see if it was confirmable and play it safe. This style matches up with the rest of Hoopla's play in this game like pushing D1 lynches based on compromise as opposed to her reads. It shows that she's not ultra-confident in her own reads, so how can we expect her to suddenly be confident enough in a Masq scumread to say "to hell with a vig claim, you are dying today!" Hoopla's logic is actually fairly standard when dealing with claims. The harm from lynching a town vig outweigh the harm of delaying a scum lynch by a day. If scum get run up and claim PR, the best move is to leave them aside and continue scumhunting elsewhere since there are still other scum to catch.

3) Clearly Hoopla was likely wrong about there not being a roleblocker. I don't think her logic was too far out there. Mods dislike using roleblockers when there are other roleblocking roles out there because they make night actions confusing and she backed that up with stats from past games. That we winded up with a likely roleblocker here doesn't make her scum. Her rolestopper speculation made sense to me at the time I read it and it being wrong doesn't make her more likely scum than town throwing our random ideas on what the setup could be to help solve the game.

4) Whatever BBMolla's alignment, consider what he did in this game. I'm

beyond stunned

that he has 130 posts because I barely remember a single thing he said or read he pushed. When he got an early wagon on him, he melted down completely and got townread and the wagon went away. Then he parked his vote on Vedith for the rest of the day until the very end where he switched to Blankface. D2, all of a sudden, from nowhere, he started pushing Masq. Here's something I would really appreciate you doing and letting me know what you think: ISO BBMolla. Ctrl+F "Masq." Let me know what you see. You'll see on day one a single quote from Masq (Post 326) where BBMolla agrees with Masquerade. The second time BBMolla mentions Masquerade is during D2 in Post 858 where he naked-votes her. Where's the read progression? It looks like he pulled that read out of thin air. Then all he does is repeat that he wants Masquerade lynched:

VOTE: Masquerade

lynch masquerade

I don't know where the other scum are, I just really think its masquerade for today.

can we just lynch masquerade

I still think masq is scum and don't know partner nor care for today

I just want masq to die

He doesn't give a single reason why. He makes no attempt to figure out why. He never scumhunts, he never considers what happens if Masq is town, who else is scum, nothing. Just repeats "lynch Masquerade" like a fucking robot. I don't even know why he voted Masquerade in the first place given his only interaction with Masquerade on D1 was a positive one.

Hoopla's also completely correct that BBMolla is happy to be townread and is skating by. Listing out all his posts makes me think he's more likely scum but I'm not even sure. Regardless, it makes complete sense that Hoopla is concerned that she may have been wrong, and then proceeded to check every angle and possibility for how BBMolla could be recruited so she can safely eliminate him as a suspect. So, I don't see Hoopla's suspicion of BBMolla as scum-indicative at all.

[Wingback]

I know there were flips. That doesn't explain why you were scumreading Masquerade. Humor me then, what was your reasoning? I can see that ChaosOmega being killed N1 after pushing Masquerade could be a reason but that alone is nowhere near strong enough to push with as much confidence as you have.

[Wingback]

While you are here, mind giving your thoughts on Elyse's push on Hoopla, and your read on Egg?

[Wingback]

I'd lynch Elyse before Blank as I think Elyse/Egg is a distinct possibility as well. What do you think of Egg?

[Wingback]

Specifically, I don't understand why either of them townread the other so strongly. But I need to look more into their interactions.

[Wingback]

@Elyse;

While I agree that the following day being mylo is a reason for scum-Hoopla to keep Masq alive for another day, it was still a risky play that puts both Masq and Hoopla in the line of fire (evidence: the votes today) when the alternative would have been a clean bus that doesn't put Hoopla in danger. Also, in mylo, you need two town to vote another town, not one. While that doesn't take away from the thrust of your point, I think it mitigates it. I just find it hard to believe that with an inactive Masquerade who couldn't string together two town-looking posts to save her life, and been forced into claiming a role where her lynch is assured the next day, a very experienced and decently skilled player like Hoopla dives right in and defends her in a double-or-nothing play.

A large part of why I suspect you is that I find your reasoning for Hoopla-scum in Post 1161 very weak. I don't think saying "the mafia PR is a scumslip" in the slightest. I also don't get how you didn't realize that scum roleblocking Grendel is the smart move regardless of whether his target was town or scum. With an even number of players, if Grendel killed a townie that was widely suspected, it still benefits town. Furthermore, I find it odd that you describe my read on Hoopla as "off" which assumes I'm town given you were earlier saying it was either Hoopla/Blank or Hoopla/Wingback.

@Hoopla;

I'm still interested in your thoughts about Egg's catchup even if only to see a different perspective. I'd also like to know your thoughts on what I said about Masq's vote on BlankFace D1. It's possible you are right on Blankface and Molla is right that it is indeed Blankface/Elyse especially since their interactions with each other do look like partners. But I also suspect Egg and have reason to second-guess my Blankface read.

@Grendel;

Re: Hoopla unvoting when it was L-2:

The danger of Masq being lynched before Hoopla could get her thoughts together was there even at L-2. I didn't get the order wrong. I just don't think that thought process of "

Unvote the major wagon while I think this through

" is a scumtell at all regardless of the flip. In fact, I think it's more likely to be town since if scum know that their bus is about to end up in a lynch, they are much more likely to stick it to the end for the towncred rather than unvote a partner at the last minute and thus lose the towncred from the bus. There was plenty of support for a Masq lynch with or without Hoopla, the only question being whether she was on the lynch or not.

Re: Hoopla speaking for Masq:

Scum have daytalk as the mod mentioned that "Any PT associated with this game will be open for use at all times (Day Phase and Night Phase)." If Hoopla was conspiring with Masq, she would have told her in the scum PT so that Masq could implement the plan directly rather than speak for Masq if that's what you are arguing. If not, you'll have to rephrase.

Re: Rolestopper speculation:

As town, we don't know what roles are in the game which means we'll speculate on the setup and some of that will be wrong. I don't see that as a scumtell, partly because I didn't find it unreasonable. At worst, it's null.

Re: Hoopla's read on BBMolla:

While I'm leaning towards BBMolla being probably town, I think erroneously confirming him as town would be a mistake. What if he was scum? If we don't do our due diligence, it would be perfectly possible for him to skate which could cost us the game. Hoopla checking her bases and covering all the possibilities is something I don't find scummy in the slightest. While it's possible for the scum might look to "unconfirm" confirmed townies, what Hoopla did is something we all have to do as town. You are ascribing just the possible scum motive to an action that town ought to do.

---

Anyways, not sure which way I want to go yet. BlankFace's alignment is pretty much a jumpball for me so having a replacement is essential. But I would stake a lot on Hoopla being town.

[Wingback]

Why is it "gross?" I have you as a leaning town read which I'm not completely confident in.

When I play games, I have some townreads I'd bank the game, some that are just leaning town, some people are null and could go either way, some are scumreads etc.

You are acting like every read needs to be a high-confidence read that I should slot into scum or town and that's just not the way I develop my reads. I doubt anyone does that.

[Wingback]

The context in which I said "what if he's scum" is a response to Grendel.

Grendel is saying "Hoopla is scum for trying to make BBMolla seem scummy and not taking the neighborizing at face value."

I'm saying Hoopla was right to investigate every possibility because if Hoopla just accepted Molla as town without questioning it, and somehow Molla ended up being scum, we would have lost. So, her play was the right one and not scummy.

[Wingback]

Like, Elyse is saying the same thing in Post 1157. That Hoopla is scum for "casting doubt on BB." I find that ridiculous. You are probably town but not "confirmed town" and not looking at the possibility of you being scum is poor town play. Yet, Elyse and Grendel are scumreading her partially for having doubts about you.

[Wingback]

I could see a situation in which a scumteam comprising of Masq/BB/???? decide to kill Chaos N1 because Masq is afraid of him. But they are worried that it would make Masq look bad. Once D2 opens, BB self-consciously starts out with a vote on Masq anticipating that she would be under pressure that day. When the pressure does come and it looks like Masq is going to be lynched, BB keeps his vote on the wagon to see the bus through periodically popping in to re-iterate that she's scum.

Finally, after Masq is lynched, a BB/??? scumteam roleblock Grendel to stop him from shooting and kill cmitc1 to nullify his role. Cmitc1 recruits BB and dies (but it doesn't say anything since there was only one kill). BB says he got recruited and outs what cmitc1 said in their neighborhood PT while being excited at the possibility of being "confirmed town" because he thinks town won't check all their bases. But Hoopla is meticulous in making sure that everything is covered and confirms with the mod that BB would have been recruited anyways thus making you not confirmed town. So, yeah. That's a possible scenario in which you are scum.

Your lurkish play and coasting is a large part of why I wouldn't solidly dismiss you as town but on balance I have a townlean. If you want me to read you as solid town, be more active and be more town.

[Wingback]

@Grendel,

on your Post 1304; I'll just address the last one for now. You "predicting" that scum would want to discredit an incorrect confirmation of a townie doesn't take away from the fact that good town play is to refute incorrect "confirmations" of other players. This is so that the wrongly confirmed player doesn't endgame as scum. It's entirely possible BBMolla is town but not "confirmed" and when people wrongly assumed him to be "confirmed," a town-Hoopla stepped in to correct that reasoning.

The one thing that's bothering me about Hoopla though is that since I've replaced in and started defending her, she barely made any posts at all or tried to work with me to refine her reads beyond just Blankface. Her posting has been very minimal lately, just one post every one or two days. So, I'd prefer she defend herself and post more reads at this point. It doesn't take away from her town posting throughout the game but I at least want an explanation for it.

I was planning to go through all my reads again to analyze who I think is the likeliest team over the next few days. When I get to it, I think it will answer your Post 1305 sufficiently. I'll tell you where I'm at from the top of my head though: Elyse and Egg are individually my strongest scumreads. I don't see anything that makes them a team but I also don't see anything that precludes them from being a team. I dislike their unexplained townreads on each other. Elyse/Blankface makes sense as I thought Elyse was pushing a Hoopla/Blankface team for poor reasoning. Egg/Blankface haven't really interacted much so there's not a lot to go there. Those are three players I think are potential scum. I have leaning townreads on BBMolla and KTS, strong townreads on you and Hoopla although I'd like Hoopla to be more active to re-affirm that read.

[Wingback]

Heading out for dinner so I'll be gone for an hour but Hoopla, you sheeping me onto whatever lynch I can achieve actually isn't helping. I want your input and perspective more than your vote and I'd find it much easier to both figure out the game as well as firm up my townread on you if you offer more input. Your lynch isn't a foregone conclusion so I don't know why you are just accepting that. The problem with deferring to me is that I don't think I have the game solved either.

A couple of things that would help are: 1) If you could go over your townread on House for me. I haven't seen any reason to townread him and his posts look a lot like scum fueling Robb to help him self-destruct. While I do think KTS's posts are somewhat town, it would help solidify that read if there was some strong reason you had for townreading House that I'm missing entirely. 2) It seems that you've played with BBMolla before so I could use a meta-explanation on why you seem decently confident this is his townplay. I'm not a fan of his coasting by occasionally and not staying on to engage me on my read (his earlier potshot at me and disappearance after I answered his question is just the latest example).

[Wingback]

I disagree with that theory pretty strongly. For instance, in the Queen Micro, most of the town zoned in on me or BNL. When I started looking outside the pair of us at you and TTH, the general response was something like "he's keeping his options open, therefore scum." It turned out that the final scum wasn't in BNL/me so looking elsewhere was a necessity. I see a somewhat similar situation here with most players looking inside just Hoopla/Blankface and I'm not even close to convinced that that's the team.

Why are you townreading Egg? Sure, he voted Masquerade early but a lot of his posts seem like the casual, passive followups that scum typically while not staying engaged in the moment. On hindsight, I also thought his Masquerade reasoning was pretty weak.

Why BBMolla? We know now that him being in the neighborhood says nothing about his alignment. You had him as a scumread D1 along with Rob. What changed that you abandoned that read? Also, neither of them have been posting much at all lately and just coasting through the game.

[Wingback]

Checked Egg's scum-meta to see what he's like as scum. The first game I looked at re-affirmed my suspicions that he was bussing Masquerade. For instance, take a look at his ISO here and Ctrl+F "Newbie" who is one of his partners. Egg replaces into the game and makes a giant catchup post most of which are points against his buddy capping it off with a vote at the end. Egg's partner wasn't under much pressure at all and the wagon was started by Egg. The stark similarity between that and his push on Masquerade here in Post 208 should nullify the reasons anyone is townreading him. Granted, he's also townread his partners in other games (his partner Beck in this game) but my point is that his posts in this game are scummy and his interactions with Masquerade shouldn't be a reason for a townread him as they fit very, very well into the range of how Egg interacts with his buddies. In fact, his push on Masquerade was based on very nebulous reasoning and him winding up being right at the end fits much more with an informed perspective than town that genuinely found scum.

Solidly confident Egg is scum here and I'd like everyone to engage me on this read.

Egg tying Hoopla to Masquerade pre-flip also makes more sense from scum tying his partner to the townie he wants to lynch next to set her up. Not at all sure who Egg's buddy is at this point. Just don't think it's Hoopla.

[Wingback]

I didn't say your posts towards your partners are passive, casual followups. Your posts in general are you passively floating around only offering content from the sidelines. You are rarely here in-the-moment spontaneously scumhunting or refining your reads.

[Wingback]

@Grendel;

It's not unlikely to be faked considering he was using your read on cmitc1 as an excuse to get off the Masquerade wagon and onto cmitc1. He needed that excuse since he was pushing Masquerade consistently. This way, he can say that he thought there was a cop guilty on cmitc1 if the lynch heads there instead of Masquerade.

I also thought his suggestion that he be lynched looked fake:

Hell, I don't mind being the lynch myself. I wouldn't mind having one less game to play. I want Grendel's input on Cmit's claim though.

Egg mentioned that he played over 300 games (I'm not sure if that was in this game or in a game I was reading but I'm sure he'll confirm this). He's smart enough to know that suggesting a lynch on oneself is abundantly stupid. I don't think he would do it as town and if he has done it, he's welcome to show me a link. Besides that, having "one less game to play" is a ridiculously weak reason to suggest a lynch on himself and doesn't sound genuine at all. Town are much more likely to want to be lynched when they are frustrated by being scumread and have a strong scumread they want dead with the hope that when people see their townflip, they'll lynch their scumread. "Lynch me, I'm overgamed" is not something a guy with 300 games under his belt would do.

On the other hand, Egg has self-voted as scum before and called for his lynch.

I think he threw out that little suggestion because he thought it would get him towncred. The fact that Egg is not above using fake towntells as scum is another reason I don't weigh his thinking you had a cop guilty on cmitc1 very strongly. He would know that cmitc1 is town and that if he believes there was a guilty, that would a "towntell" on his part because it would supposedly show that he was uninformed about cmitc1's alignment.

---

@Elyse;

Egg's push on Masq was actually pretty bad. Here's the essence of how it went:

• Grendel asked a bunch of RQS questions three of which are "what are your strengths," "what are your weaknesses," and "do your strengths and weaknesses change with alignment?"
  
• Masq responded to them in Post 138 with "I don't really know," "I get emotional and it shows," and "Sort of."
  
• Eggs asks " How do you know your strengths and weaknesses change without knowing what your strengths are?" Right away, I find this a stretch. Masquerade could easily have been referring to just her weaknesses given she didn't really answer the "strengths" part.
  
• Her response in Post 265 confirms this and she explains that she gets more emotional as town because she's apparently the one being betrayed. Clearly, this changes with alignment.

The entire Masq-case is Egg making a huge stretch out of Masq answering non-alignment indicative RQS questions about herself. Adding onto that, he uses a lot of dubious theory to back up his reasoning in Post 227 to refute Robb's point that Masq may simply have not wanted to give away her scum meta regardless of her alignment. It reads like he knew what he was doing with the Masq-push and that he'd look good for it more than actually trying to read her.

After all this, he fades out and returns to say that he "supported" the Vedith pressure in Post 421 and votes Vedith because "deadline" in Post 816. He never gives any reason for this at all. His only other mention of Vedith on D1 is all the way back in his first post where he calls Vedith town for his reaction to the Hoopla townblock. More notably, when he said "deadline" and voted Vedith, Blankface had five votes on him and Vedith had two, so if deadline was his reason, he would have voted Blankface. Instead, he gives off the indication that he had Blankface as an actual townread asking what the Blankface wagon was about. All this is on page 33. What reads as most disingenous here though is when he does another huge catchup at the beginning of D2, he starts agreeing with your continued case on Blankface and saying that he had too many townreads and Blankface wasn't one of them. So, if Blankface wasn't a townread, why would he vote Vedith who had only two votes over Blankface who had five with "deadline" as the reason?

His reasons for scumreading Hoopla over the Masq lynch makes no sense as he behaved similarly. In Post 994, he states that he'll unvote if Masq claims to still have the shot which is basically Hoopla's position as well. Yet, he agrees with your Post 1200 where you accuse Hoopla of doing pretty much the same thing Egg did like missing the obvious signs that Masq was lying, and voting other players (Egg had voted both Cmitc1 and Hoopla while the Masq claim shenanigans were happening). If he had similar doubts about Masq, why would he push on Hoopla for having them?

Finally, look at his latest play D3. After Hoopla claims, he waffles around the claim, and questions that it could be town yet keeps his vote on Hoopla while also being "tempted" to vote Blankface because of the replacement. Aside from it being dumb to vote someone for replacing out, he isn't actually doing anything to read and analyze either player. When I call him out, he gets beetlejuiced into the thread eight minutes after I post and when I don't respond, he disappears again. This is coasting scum who is very happy with the gamestate as is. He made a convincing bus D2 and is assured a mislynch today which will put the game at mylo and that's it.

---

This guy needs votes on him. Seriously, look at all his scumgames. This is the exact pattern he follows (uninvolved in the game with detailed catchups, bussing weaker partners), gets townread and coasts to lategame or victory. Here, I'll link you to his games if you want to take a look:

Town-Egg: This link is the advanced search I did containing only games not including the Discussion forums and other miscellaneous stuff. Everything not listed below is a towngame and there are many. A couple that I've looked through are Shaman Mafia, and Mini 1562. In both of those, he was a lot more engaged, more passionate about his pushes, and genuinely trying to read the players he pushed.

Scum-Egg: Micro 205, Open 578*, Mini 1620, Open 620, NY 185* (*Multiball so take it with a grain of salt.)

I'm thinking BBMolla could be the partner but far from convinced on that. I'll use the rest of this day to try and figure out who it could be.

VOTE: Egg

[Wingback]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66557
Why not even look at my most recent town game? It shows how busy I've been. 30 pages behind for most of the game. Also, if you've meta'd me as much as you seemed to, you'd have seen me self vote as town I'm sure.

A couple of things here: that game was moving at a breakneck pace (100 pages in around 25 days). This game has fifty pages in around forty days. You're looking at a Large game that was moving nearly four times as fast. Besides, this game has stalled completely, yet you are still coasting not making any more effort to figure out Hoopla and/or Blank by going over their early posts, asking Hoopla questions and so on. Given that you have been second-guessing your scumread on Hoopla for her VT claim, I'd expect more effort in trying to figure her out. At this point, it looks like you are faking uncertainty so that you don't go out on a limb pushing a mislynch.

I haven't read every town game of yours. If you've either a) self-voted, or b) suggested a lynch on you for dumb reasons like you having a one less game to play, feel free to link it for me and I'll consider it in context of everything else.

At the very least you'd have seen comments about hating mafia and not wanting to be in games

Hating mafia is completely different from saying "Hell, I don't mind being the lynch myself. I wouldn't mind having one less game to play." It's a stretch to believe the latter as an honest opinion and fits in much more with you wanting towncred for the suggestion.

The two people I said are scum are voting me now.

This is fake as fuck. So, both scum decided that instead of taking the pretty much guaranteed Blankface mislynch before a replacement comes in, decided that tunneling you, Egg, who no one has suspected for a long time was a better move, when we all know that replacements change the dynamic of a slot and could potentially make it obvtown if they are town.

[Wingback]

@Egg;

re: Post 1332,
1. You actually did tie Hoopla and Masquerade together pre-flip. This happened in Post 901. I also don't follow how Hoopla and Wake interacted in a way that looking scum-scum, simply by posting on the same page but not interacting with each other. Besides, that's not an original thought. You ripped it off of House.

2. The problem with your play around Grendel and cmit is that if you thought Grendel was a cop with a guilty, there was no reason to ask any questions or try to get further information if you are town. Masquerade was the most likely lynch and if Grendel truly was the cop, he would have claimed at some point to divert it to cmit. That he didn't claim in his first post of the day means that he was probably looking for interactive tells before he outed. There's no way a cop with a guilty doesn't eventually claim so nothing was needed from your end.

3. Your Masq push was bad because you were using perfectly null tells to paint her in a scummy light. Two instances of this are a) her answer "sort of" could easily have applied to just her weakness but you stretched it to mean that she had hidden strengths that she didn't want to talk about, and b) even if she wanted to hide her strengths as scum, it's perfectly acceptable to not want to reveal your scum meta regardless of alignment but you ignore that entirely and shoehorn it as her being scum which reads to me as inside knowledge that she is indeed scum.

4. Saying "I hate mafia" is perfectly acceptable outlet for frustration that doesn't interfere with your wincon. But self-voting or suggesting that you be lynched does, and while I can see newbies doing the latter as town, I have a hard time believing a player with your level of experience would make that suggestion. So, when you get a chance, I'd really appreciate seeing the links to where you did this as town.

With that said, you have me second-guessing my read on you with this response so I'm going to reset and try and re-read the game from a different perspective tomorrow.

[Wingback]

@Grendel;

re: Post 1335, I was holding off on continuing to defend Hoopla because my solid townread there is evaporating given her latest posts. I wanted to see her get back into the game and defend herself but nothing she's posted in the game has re-assured me that I was right so I'm considering the possibility that I was wrong here.

[Wingback]

@Hoopla;

re: Post 1326,
1) Not a fan of the overt buddying of me. I hardly think I have a solid grasp on the game and this post sends all kinds of alarms especially since the entirety of your interaction with me has been cheerleading from the sidelines as opposed to offer any sort of opinions or content. Is this normal play for you as town? Can you link me to games where you were mislynched or were on the brink of being mislynched? I'd also like to see a game where you took the backseat and just went with the reads of another player who you thought had a better handle on the game.

2) I have a hard time buying that your townread on BBMolla at the end of D3 in fifty page long game with over five weeks of playtime amounts to "he had an emotional meltdown" on page seven a couple of days after the game started. You have stated paranoia of him for just coasting on the townread you gave him but it's concerning that you never followed up on that line of thought. On your Post 1188, there isn't much thought required to claim that he was neighborized and to summarize cmitc's posts in the neighborhood PT. That's a pretty weak reason for it to have assuaged your concerns about BBMolla's lack of scumhunting. Mind going over it in more detail so I can see if there's more depth to it?

3) If you are town here, I'd like to avoid mislynching but as it turns out, you are the concensus scumread and you not nothing has made me second-guess my townread on you considerably. Especially given you seem happy to post in the Open Setup Review thread which shows you have enough time to spare for mafia-related activities. This is also at odds with typical town behavior where players about to be lynched want to get as much information and reads out there as possible. In fact, it fits with the scum motivation of trying to minimize interactive tells and going down quietly once they see the writing on the wall. Assuming you are town, I really need something from you, hopefully a massive wall of content with in-depth and updated reads.

[Wingback]

I don't see a world where Hoopla scum and Elyse town

If this is the case, why are you planning to vote Hoopla?

[Wingback]

That doesn't make any sense. You just said there is no way you can see Elyse being town if Hoopla is scum so shouldn't you be voting Elyse by that logic?

Pedit: Will get to Elyse's post after this.

[Wingback]

@Elyse;

re: Post 1364, Egg's push on Masq being early is actually one of the reasons I suspect him. It was too early to deduce that Masquerade was mafia from the information we had at the time. Pushing on your partners early when you don't have a town player you can confidently push has a ton of scum motive. It gives you someone to push without risking antagonizing someone and sew in some early distancing. You were in the Queen game when I made this point about TTH's push on Aristo.

I haven't ruled out Hoopla/Egg. If that's the scumteam, then Egg has done some very good distancing tying both his partners together. The reason I haven't ruled it out is that Egg's opportunistic tying of Wake (my slot) and Hoopla based simply on them posting on the same page and not interacting. House was the one who brought up that weak reasoning and Egg jumped on it. Regardless, it's a possibility that shouldn't be discounted as those are the sort of moves that win scumgames.

Haven't ruled out Hoopla/BBMolla either. Hoopla wagoning him up early game so he can fake a bit of ATE gives her an excuse to townread him which seemingly lasted for three whole game days. As for trying to unconfirm BBMolla as town, why wouldn't she? It's not like BBMolla absolutely needs the faux-confirmation from cmit in order to survive and Hoopla's play serves to solidly distance them so that if one flips, the other is assured a win. Hoopla also put in extra effort in trying to discredit Robb's BBMolla read by pointing out all the times that Robb was wrong, and in general making him look stupid. It didn't look like it served an in-game purpose but if Robb was onto Hoopla's partner, that would be a great way to undermine him.

BBMolla/Egg is plausible. Post 1021 looks like one of those forced "disagreements" that scum have with each other and Hoopla pointed it out in Post 1022. The interactions from Egg's side are mostly to townread him with a few doubts sprinkled in. From BBMolla's side, they are mostly non-existent.

I don't follow why you think that besides my play, no one else's has been "spectacular" when from your perspective, I've spent most of today trying to derail a lynch on "obvscum Hoopla." I could maybe see it simply referring to activity level but it feels off. With that said, upon a re-read of the game and from recent interactions with Mathblade, I'm actually leaning against you being scum. Found a few towntells in House's ISO as well. That gives me a pool of Mathblade, Hoopla, Egg, BBMolla to work with.

[Wingback]

@Hoopla;

re: Post 1349, You didn't answer my question about your BBMolla read - that was the most important part.

I glanced through the games you linked. I didn't find anything compelling in the first one yet so I'll look at it more in-depth tonight. As for the second one, I found a wall where you justified sheeping but it was a large game with no flips at that time and you complained about the game length, size, and speed. Here, we only have eight players remaining, with only a page or so a day so it should be a great ground for you to bust out the analytical chops you talked about but I don't see anything.

The concern I had wasn't entirely just about sheeping and more about "Wingback is obliterating this game" which I didn't like. If you really thought collaborating with me was beneficial, I thought you would have expanded on that BBMolla read that I asked about to help me figure the game out.

[Wingback]

I'm still leaning towards Mathblade as town based on Masq/Blank interactions. To elaborate on this more in-depth: I got a chance to look at Masquerade's scum meta. In Open 638, her partner BTD6_maker was lynched D1. She spent the entirety of the day defending her partner and was quicklynched D2 when he flipped. Another scumgame (Mini 1806) actually had a lot of similarities to this one. For those interested, Masquerade's partner Dunnstral was wagoned several times in the game from D2 onwards but Masquerade always found a reason to vote his counterwagon or push elsewhere, conspicuously avoiding her partner's wagon.

That strengthens my earlier point that Blankface/Mathblade isn't a Masquerade partner. It makes zero sense for someone like Masquerade to make Post 806 and just cavalierly plop down a vote on a partner's wagon when she could have stayed on Vedith and pushed that mislynch through. Scum also tend to hate it when they feel like there's a mislynch in the bag and suddenly, the votes move toward their partner. Unless they are very experienced, it's hard to resist the temptation to stay away from the deadline wagon hoping it won't go through. That still leaves me with

Egg/BBMolla/Hoopla

that I need to look into in-depth tonight and make my decision. Reasonably confident the scumteam is in there. If not, I'm pretty far down the wrong track and need to re-evaluate the towntells I'm using to POE the game.

Mathblade's posts are throwing me for a loop however. I'll try and sort through them in my next post to see if that firms up my read. I don't think she's bussing Hoopla though as I doubt she'd make it a point to remind me of how much she bussed her partners in Mini 1800... and then bus Hoopla.

[Wingback]

@Mathblade;

I would actually prefer lynching Egg or BBMolla over Hoopla. I suppose it's partly because I was confident in a Hoopla townread for a while and don't want to wind up being wrong there, especially given she's one of the people who's seeing things in a similar way to me. I realize if she were scum, she's morphing her reads around to appease me but on the off-chance I'm wrong, I'd obviously feel less bad about lynching a town-BBMolla than a town-Hoopla given the latter did next to nothing the whole game. Egg, I want to lynch because I'm so confident in his scumflip. Re-reading the part where he agreed with House's reasoning that Wake/Hoopla were a team takes away the doubts I had earlier.

Mind explaining your BBMolla townread for me? I don't see it at all. He had a meltdown early game and coasted through three days. He's not even trying at this point.

Hoopla/Elyse is actually very unlikely. Elyse and Hoopla are both active, decent players and I don't see them cross-bussing for no reason. They're the types I'd expect to endgame as scum. Comparing them to how you/MoI cross-bussed in Mini 1800 doesn't work because a) you and MoI both have antagonistic playstyles, b) you and MoI had significant playstyle clashes even in the scum PT, and c) you and MoI are both huge bussers. Your notion of a good bus is one that's entirely unconvincing. I don't think Elyse's push fit into that category. She was a driving force behind why Hoopla is on the brink of a lynch today.

I don't think you should be so quick to discount Egg/Hoopla though. Egg tying Masq to Hoopla could be a scum-gambit to completely clear him when they both flip. This post is the one I'm very confident is coming from an informed perspective:

House makes a good point about Hoopla and Wake being on the same page and avoiding interaction. Wake not being in Hoopla's so called town bloc is interesting with that in mind. Throw in the fact that Hoopla seemed to randomly exclude Masquarade from the Blank vs Vedith wagon thing earlier, then again on this Page (Post 729), and this very well could be the scum team (Hoopla/Wake/Masquarade). As much as I don't like Blankface's refusal to give any reads, that's probably my best guess at this point. Oh, I keep forgetting cmit too because he hasn't said much lately. Guess my "too many town reads" problem isn't such a big deal anymore. Strong town reads on Grendel, House, and Elyse is probably a good thing then.

His reason for my slot (Wake)/Hoopla being partners essentially amounts to being on the same page and not interacting. This makes no sense given a) people who are on the same page have less reason to interact given they don't have disagreements to hash out, b) whether players collaborate is entirely dependent on playstyle. That this wasn't original reasoning but he ripped it off of House just shows he's going along with arguments that he knows will resonate with town.

[Wingback]

@Mathblade, mechanics isn't a reason to clear BBMolla:

MOD: Would a Weak Neighbourizers' action still succeed on a mafioso despite dying?

Yes, a Weak Neighborizer who successfully targets a Mafia player would both add that player to the Neighborhood PT (Neighborizer) and die (Weak).

We know that the scum killed cmitc1 and cmitc1 recruited BBMolla. This would happen regardless of BBMolla's alignment.

What are your thoughts on his play?

[Wingback]

Still prefer Hoopla to Egg though. Gut.

One reason I'm thinking Hoopla's probably town is that most of her responses are directed at me and she isn't talking to anyone but me.

If she's scum, I put myself out on a limb to defend her making me a potential juicy mislynch if she's lynched and flips scum. Given that, I think she'd want to at least make it look like we're partners but spending the entirety of her time buddying me, telling me I'm obliterating the game, and that she'll sheep me where I want to go sort of undermines that and helps people correctly figure out that she's scum buddying a town-me and makes it less likely I get mislynched after her flip.

I suppose the counter to that is that she's hoping I'm successful at driving the lynch off of her but if that's what she's rooting for, she'd be helping me do that by offering content. And if she saw the writing on the wall as scum and was resigned to a lynch, she wouldn't be buddying me so much and making it harder for her partner to get mislynches after she's gone.

[Wingback]

I'm going to a cafe to grab dinner and I'll respond to Elyse's and Hoopla's points then and read that game Egg linked. But Mathblade, I suggest looking at Egg's play in this game as a whole. He's detail oriented and his play has depth but he's never really IN the game. I find it very hard to believe that someone in perpetual catchup mode with one foot out the door so accurately pegged Masquerade based on weaksauce reasoning and then so accurately pegged Hoopla as partners with Masquerade. The likelihood of that is so much lower than scum pulling off a bus on Masquerade and tying people to her pre-flip so he can set up where to push later on. Regardless of what Hoopla flips, I still think Egg is scum so I'd rather hang him first.

[Wingback]

Yeah, but why buddy me so obviously when it would have been better to just look like she's distancing from me so that Elyse (or whoever her partner is) can mislynch me more easily tomorrow? She could always prod-dodge if she wanted to minimize the flow of information. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on Egg. I don't buy that he accurately nailed Masquerade and Hoopla together as a scumteam when he's barely been playing the game.

Also, BBMolla being recruited is null since there was only one kill. That doesn't incriminate him so no reason to hold back on it.

[Wingback]

Scum had to kill cmit regardless because a weak neighborizer is an investigative role and the most powerful one in the game. They pretty much had to roleblock Grendel because Grendel had a vig-shot. No matter who scum was, they made the optimal move by roleblocking the vig and killing the neighborizer. That way they keep the game at evens and nullify the investigative role.

[Wingback]

How has BBMolla been helpful? Since I replaced in, all he's done is pop in from time to time with random comments about the game with zero follow up. Even from the start he's done next to zero scumhunting. I'd love to see links to posts where you thought he was helpful.

BBMolla/Egg are my top two scumreads as well so I agree on that count.

[Wingback]

Took a glance at the game you are referring to (Mass Effect) and it's not helpful for meta at all given there are six different alignments. I'd classify it more as Mish Mash than mafia.

None of the things you listed are towntells or alignment-relevant. They are all easy things for scum to do to look helpful.

[Wingback]

I think he's scum because he's not scumhunting. He's not trying to figure the game out. He's not following up on any of his thoughts or opinions. At the beginning of the game, he spent most of his effort telling Robb that he was stupid to fend off suspicion on him. Now that he's generally townread, he's active lurking and only showing up after being prodded.

That's different from "trying to improve people as a whole" or "trying to correct site meta" neither of which I find alignment-relevant.

But more to the point, let's lynch Egg.

[Wingback]

Finished page 38 in my re-read and I noticed Masquerade is voting Egg (Post 877, Post 919). That lessens my scumread on Egg given that this would be the first time Masquerade would have voted a buddy. She has four completed scumgames and she never votes a partner.

Something that bugged me about Blankface was that his readslist in Post 809 contained only four players and he never follows up and completes it. It has been on the back of mind but I never really thought about it until I decided to look through his past games to see what I find. I found this neat little tidbit of info in a Mafia PT of his where he explicitly says that he ignores some people in his re-read in case anyone checks to see who he has ignored. In his scumgame, he's also fairly inactive although he does make detailed catchups and survives to endgame and win whereas when he's town, he's invariably among the top posters. That kills my townread on Blankface/Mathblade. It's possible I'm reading way too much into a stray vote.

Interaction between BBMolla/Mathblade strongly point to Math-scum, Molla-town as they reek of the same thing Math did in Mini 1800 townreading a lynchbait player (JohnnyFarrar) for weak reasons, just insisting that they are town because of "meta" that Mathblade can't explain with any depth of thought. I'm not entirely townreading Molla though given the total lack of effort into the game.

I don't know how I did it but I went through Egg's ISO in the game he listed and read all of his over 200 posts. There a couple of points where he falls behind but I don't see anywhere in his catchups where he just parrots other people's reasoning for their scumreads which is my biggest hangup with him.

Given that at least four players are tunneled in on Hoopla and I can't get any of the rest to agree to a lynch elsewhere, might be best to just go along with lynching Hoopla. If she's scum, that's great and my initial townread was wrong. If not, at least everyone can re-evaluate. I think I'm over-analyzing the game so seeing a couple of flips would help. If I'm not alive tomorrow, my final reads are that Grendel and Elyse are town and that I have a slight leaning townread on KTS that I'm not confident in.

Intent to hammer Hoopla in a few hours.

[Wingback]

Actually, I'd prefer going to Mathblade first if Elyse agrees (we'd have the numbers since KTS hammers anyone). Just putting that out there. If not, Hoopla's pretty much the only lynch that'll happen. Going to decide once Elyse checks in.

[Wingback]

VOTE: Hoopla

I think this is the right play here.

[Wingback]

I explicitly said Hoopla was at L-1 when I voted./quote]
Right, and I explicitly said I was hammering and posted the reasons why. You are acting like I was pretending to not know that I hammered.

I didn't hammer because anybody asked me to. I felt that with the state of the game (Elyse, Grendel, Egg, Math) all set on Hoopla, if I try to lynch someone else today and wind up being wrong, that's pretty much game over if Hoopla is town. This way, everyone gets a chance to re-evaluate. I was also questioning my townread on Hoopla given low activity level and not much to go on since I replaced in.

General paranoia does not excuse sheeping a scumread.

What general paranoia? Where did I sheep anyone, let alone a scumread?

This over-reaction pretty much confirms Math as scum. She's spewing rubbish and if she's not vigged or lynched tomorrow, I'll be very disappointed.

[Wingback]

You are acting like I was pretending I didn't know that I was hammering. I stated pretty clearly that I was going to hammer and then I did. The fact that you EXPLICITLY stated that Hoopla was at L-1 was not lost on me.

[Wingback]

If Hoopla flips town, pretty sure it's Mathblade/Egg. The all the people tunneled in on her better sit and read the whole game and think about considering all options.

[Wingback]

I'm fucking glad I hammered though since it outed Mathblade as scum. I'd have going around in circles trying to figure out who it was if this series of events didn't happen.

[Wingback]

As I said earlier don't see Hiplop and Elyse being scum together.

Your opening posts were all geared towards showing us how Elyse and Hoopla were cross-bussing so no, that's not what you said earlier.

Can't keep your story straight I see.

[Wingback]

I don't think that's wise.

Read the game overnight and I'm ready to admit I was wrong on Egg based on the Hoopla flip as well as a bunch of other things that came to me while I was reading overnight. I'll explain this in detail in a little while. The Tl;dr of it is that I'm pretty sure

Mathblade and Elyse

are scum.

The reason I don't want to no lynch is I don't entirely trust whoever is town is vote Elyse in Lylo. For whatever reason she's getting townread and I don't want this to turn into a 3P with Elyse and two townies without the luxury of more players giving their input.

[Wingback]

Okay, so here's the thing:

Mathblade's end-of-day posting has me convinced that there is no way she's town. Now with that mind, I re-read the entire game. Egg showing up when Blankface was at L-2, voting VEDITH who had two votes and asking everyone what the case was on blankface makes zero sense as a partner. I've read enough of his games now to know that he wouldn't be so blatant or allow himself to be caught out so easily.

Elyse on the other hand makes perfect sense as a Mathblade partner. She had Blankface as a backpocket read but always preferred to push Hoopla. Hoopla and Elyse also had this odd interaction where they accuse each other of being partnered with Mathblade but Elyse's number one push has always been Hoopla. Elyse's argument that Hoopla voted Blankface D1 but didn't actually want him lynched and was distancing smacks of an informed perspective (knowing Blankface was scum) because why would Hoopla risk a wagon on her partner so late when a mislynch was assured?

This is confirmed when Mathblade replaces in and makes the most ABSURD argument that the scumteam is Elyse and Hoopla. So, she's playing the same game Elyse is tying her partner to a townie. Both have insisted that the other is scum with Hoopla while pushing Hoopla which is absolutely hilarious. Besides read through Mathblade's logic on why she voted Hoopla over Elyse and it makes no sense at all.

Then there's Elyse's post to me when I made the case on Egg in Post 1364. That was actually my first gut-ping with Elyse. She seemed a bit too pleasant and receptive to my Egg scumread where as the last game I played with her, her interactions with me amounted to "I'm not reading your posts, die scum." Her characterization of my game being spectacular also reeked of trying to manipulate me into voting Hoopla. There is no way she should have been reading my play as "spectacular" given I was derailed the lynch on her biggest scumread. Her read on me also makes no sense since she was scumreading my slot earlier but then started talking about how my read on Hoopla was "off."

After seeing Hoopla's flip and Math's reaction to it, it all falls into place really well. Anyways, I want to lynch Elyse or Mathblade today and the other tomorrow.

[Wingback]

Anyways, thoughts on the above would be very much appreciated Egg, KTS, BBMolla.

I'm going to try and do everything I can to make sure we don't wind up in LYLO where one derp-town misvoting could end us the game.

[Wingback]

The reason I don't want to no lynch is that scum get to remove an additional townie from the game. At this point, I really don't want to risk someone quickvoting and with KTS in the game, I honestly don't trust that he won't quickvote on a whim given his play so far. I don't want to place the game in the control of each individual townie but rather force consensus for every lynch. If you are not sure, who to lynch, I'd rather we discuss that now and then lynch.

The reason I'm confident it's not Mathblade/BBMolla is that Mathblade is incredibly obvious about who their scumpartners are. In Mini 1800, Mathblade killed me N1 because she was afraid that my research into their meta would help me figure out their alignment as well as her partners. Her posts in the scum PT (post 182, post 183, post 188 post 190, post 195, post 199, post 200) all show this.

Mathblade's townread on BBMolla doesn't make sense in the slightest as partner to partner interactions. For one, players who are natural bussers as scum find it a bit difficult to move into strongly townreading their partners the way Mathblade did. Secondly, the way she offered zero good reasons but had a high-confidence read based on nearly nothing fits very well into how Mathblade treats townies when they are town. See Mathblade's ISO in the game I'm talking about (Mini 1800) and Ctrl+F "johnny" who was the day one lynch and see Mathblade's comments on him. They continually defend him with no reasoning, just insisting that he was town. At one point, I felt like Mathblade was scum who knew that Johnny was town. I got the exact same feeling when Mathblade was defending BBMolla.

Obviously, there's going to be the argument of Mathblade manipulating her meta to trick me. The response to that is a) What I said above about players who bus. They tend to have an innate phobia of strongly townreading their partners because of how bad it might make them look, and b) The things I noticed about Mathblade are not behaviors that you can change on a whim.

Math/Elyse not only makes sense with Math's general meta, it fits with the general scum tactic of tying buddies to a townie. Both Mathblade and Elyse said that the other was scum with Hoopla but only wanted to lynch Hoopla. See Math's Post 1363 and all the quotes inside it. She says she doesn't see a world where Hoopla is scum and Elyse is town. Meaning if Hoopla is scum, Elyse HAS to be. By that logic, she should be voting Elyse. She doesn't. She's set on Hoopla.

On Elyse's side, I see Post 1122 as early distancing/tying Hoopla to Blankface. "No actual intent on getting Blankface lynched" is the type of subtle setting-up language I see as more likely to come from scum. Saying that the point I made about you (Egg) voting Vedith over Blankface was a decent point if Blankface is scum is another subtle slip-up where I could see her setting up to turn on you after Blankface's flip (Post 1364). The thing is, what I pointed out about you voting Vedith over Blankface is one of the reasons I think you are town now given how obvious it is that Math is scum. In fact, that entire post reads as "you are making some decent points about Egg but I'm not completely sold, convince me."

When it dawned on me that Mathblade/Elyse was the most likely team, the way I saw the game playing out was scum kill Grendel (they did) -> we lynch Mathblade -> scum kill BBMolla -> we no lynch since we're in 4P mylo -> scum kill KTS. That sets up an Elyse/Wingback/Egg LYLO with me and you going after each other and Elyse being the "undecided" trying to see both sides of our argument. Once we give in and vote, she'd hammer. Anyways, that was my prediction and is a large reason I started fighting so hard against no lynching earlier today. It was that post by Elyse that gave me a good idea what to expect. You really should read that post and notice how she treats my scumread on you. I also played with Elyse before and can say with conviction that she's not this receptive to discussing my reads nor does she have the "I-see-where-you-are-coming-from-but-not-totally-sold-give-me-more" vibe.

BBMolla was actually dead-on when he said it was Elyse/Blankface. I didn't take him seriously at the time because there were so many other avenues I hadn't explored yet and wasn't close to having any answers. I also think Elyse's "Hoopla is scum for casting doubt on Molla" is a transparent attempt to get BBMolla on her side. I don't see her being bold enough to make that statement about a partner and it would serve no purpose. I don't think she's a bad town player who was unable to see that BBMolla wasn't confirmed and that Hoopla made the right call.

Elyse digging her heels in for a Hoopla lynch over Mathblade confirms what I thought. While it isn't individually scummy to want to lynch their top scumread as opposed to their second scumread when given the choice, it's more the fact that she

had

Hoopla at the top and Blankface as a backup. She was scumreading Blankface all the way from D1 but always found a way to lynch others (Vedith and Hoopla) over his slot. When Hoopla claimed VT, her interaction with you was to shut down Hoopla's claim as not meaning anything (Post 1268, Post 1270, Post 1272). She gives herself an out "confbiasing" but it's notable how she resists going after the guy she's been pushing since D1.

Some of this is circumstantial but we're both agreed it's not KTS, and BBMolla doesn't make sense as scum with either Elyse or Mathblade. The two of them together make a ton of sense given their slot's play and positions in the game.

[Wingback]

@Mathblade;

re: Post 1437, This entire post reads as if you can't keep your story straight between discrediting me and calling me scum. I never said Mini 1800 meta doesn't apply. I said it was unlikely you were bussing Hoopla. Your posts with regards to Elyse actually do fit in with what you would do as scum, being adamant about lynching Hoopla but claiming Elyse as a second scumread. Calling my posts "dumb little world" and "paranoid ravings" doesn't track with saying I'm scum.

@Elyse;

re: Post 1438,
1) You actually claimed to have been scumreading my slot here too given you said that either me or Mathblade were Hoopla's partner. When did this change?

2) If you are scum with Mathblade, then I wasn't getting it right given I was pushing Egg mostly so I don't see why you would have been pissed as scum. Even if you were pissed at me defending Hoopla, you are acting like if you were scum, you would have shown that rather than try to buddy me and get me to vote Hoopla. If you were so confident in your Hoopla scumread, it makes more sense to have viewed my defense as an annoyance rather than bringing a dead game back to life. I certainly don't care for someone's activity level if their primary contribution is to derail what I'm doing.

3) Hoopla was town so "not pulling a Hoopla" isn't exactly a point in your favor. I have a lot of trouble seeing BBMolla as scum with Mathblade and KTS leans decently town as well. The fact that you refuse to vote Egg reads more like you are buddying him than town with an incorrect townread. Besides, comparitively, based on interactions with Mathblade, you come off worse than Egg.

4) This point is a stretch. If Math is scum making up reads with holes in them, then there are inconsistencies in those reads regardless of whether it's talking about a partner or a townie. Math tying you to Hoopla only makes sense from an Elyse-town POV if Math and Hoopla are both scum. Since Hoopla flipped town, I'm guessing their tying you to Hoopla was because you and Math are scum. Math explicitly said that you and Hoopla are the same alignment and today, Math has excluded you from the lynch list. That doesn't seem like they are tying you to Hoopla. It seems like they are tying Hoopla to you so in case you flip, they can lynch Hoopla, and in case Hoopla flips, they don't have to push you. I don't think Math "scum-slipped" in the manner you said although I'm perfectly willing to lynch either of you today.

5) When Hoopla flipped town, who was your pick for a scumteam and why? How did the townflip affect your reads on Egg, KTS, BBMolla, and me before you saw me push you today. In other words, what were your reads during the night and how were you re-assessing?

[Wingback]

Except you are not actually re-evaluating anything. You are just omgus'ing me and bussing Math. You haven't actually considered any of Egg's posts or tried to read him. "Townreading strongly based on his content" is one of those ridiculously vague things scum say when they need to townread a town player. Bottomline, I think your sole reason for townreading Egg is because he for the most part was townreading you only bringing up the possibility that you are scum today, and even now, not very much. The only significant reason you gave me yesterday for townreading Egg was that he was pushing Hoopla and that if you are wrong there, you need to re-evaluate. I'm guessing that's setting up for Egg and I to go after each other. But now that I turned on you, you basically have no option but to push back on me and forget that Egg re-evaluation entirely. I also think you ignoring Hoopla's departing post where she tells you to get it together and that she supports me on Egg/Mathblade is a minor scumtell.

[Wingback]

Was about to vote now that everyone's checked in but I'll wait for Elyse's response so I can reconsider one last time before putting the game on the line.

[Wingback]

@Egg, do you mind unvoting no lynch so one derp-hammers and cuts off discussion?

Still have stuff I need to read over.

[Wingback]

Very disappointed that no one's posting any content or has tried to advance the game over the past day or so. Here's where I'm at:

Still think Elyse's Post 1364 was manipulative and not the kind of post I'd expect from someone like her. Also, found her "trying to deconfirm BBMolla" push on Hoopla to be very weak, and for all the talk about how Hoopla was trying to keep BBMolla in her pocket, I find that it applied to Elyse more, given she was pushing BBMolla as confirmed town and blaming Hoopla for checking all her bases. The point about Hoopla pushing Blankface/Vedith at deadline while ignoring Masquerade is a major point Elyse brought up but that falls apart entirely when you see that Elyse was arguing Blankface is partnered WITH Hoopla. Then, her complete lack of re-evaluating Egg today after her top reason for townreading him was his push on Hoopla who flipped town doesn't look to have town motivation. She's only re-evaluating the "easy-to-lynch" players like KTS while sticking with her townread on the player she needs as an ally. Finally, and this one's not a very strong point but her completely ignoring Hoopla's last post is something I find more likely to come from scum because that type of appeal creates a lot of awkwardness and uncertainty on how to respond but this is probably not as strong as my other reasons.

Mathblade's posting hasn't shown me any reason to think she's town either. Tying Elyse to Hoopla but only voting Hoopla, the odd townread of BBMolla which is exactly the kind of bizarre townreads that Mathblade fakes as scum, the overblown reaction to my hammer vote on Hoopla, and the completely ridiculous logic where she clears Elyse if Hoopla flips town.

Both Elyse and Mathblade have been posting elsewhere on site (although this also applies to Egg and is one reason I have faint misgivings about him). But Egg's playstyle issues that I initially found scummy seem to be consistent across games in that he does play in catchup mode a lot. Grendel's point about Egg thinking that Grendel had a guilty on cmit was actually a decently strong point, not to mention the other two points about a) Egg not so blatantly tying his partner to a townie like he tied Masq to Hoopla, and b) showing up to vote Vedith when Blankface was at L-2 which is a very risky move as scum. I don't like that he hasn't given any reads whatsoever today and is avoiding the thread and my post specifically telling him to move his no lynch vote.

At this point, I just have to make a call on which of the three I find towniest, and Egg comes off significantly better than both Elyse and Mathblade. I'm likely going to go for Elyse over Mathblade since a) I think Egg's townread on Elyse from the past days is the weak point of the game that scum can use to win if I'm not here tomorrow. But Mathblade likely doesn't have the same skill as Elyse to make it through regardless of the composition of players the following day. b) We've already got KTS on Elyse so easier to get consensus here. Elyse/Mathblade interactions also look like they are setting up for Elyse to go the distance.

I'll be voting Elyse at 5PM today which is 2 hours 15 minutes from now.

Last call to respond

before I put the game on the line.

[Wingback]

Given the latest post, lack of response, and lack of even asking me for more time while she continues posting in other games, I'm as confident as I could be that it is Elyse. If she's town, that makes the game ending a possibility so this would have been a high priority given her top scumread is supposedly Math who isn't voting her. On the other hand, as scum, she could a) still push on me and KTS, b) could win if her partner survives which makes it a lower priority, so the fact that she isn't here and doesn't seem to care fits better with a scum motive.

VOTE: Elyse

Something I forgot to mention but I think there's a good chance she's a scum power role that stopped cmitc1 from recruiting her, possibly an ascetic. I find it unlikely that of all people who could be roleblocked N1, cmit was the person chosen. This is a bit speculatory and not a strong point but more of a supplementary reason to my other points, but it does make me comfortable with an Elyse vote given I know that something seems to be amiss wrt to cmit's N1 action on her.

[Wingback]

UNVOTE:

You could have said that earlier. Will wait for a response.

[Wingback]

@KTS, who do you think is scum with her?

[Wingback]

Also your "I don't trust Egg to vote Elyse" is bullshit because you need Egg's vote today anyway. Unless you're counting on my scumbuddy Math's vote :roll

You're just trying to mislynch me to win the game because you're unsure if you can win in LyLo against me. Otherwise there's no reason for you to lynch me before obvscum Math or a NL since

you need Egg's vote anyway

.

If I were scum, I don't actually need Egg for anything. I'd just bring you to LYLO with either BBMolla or KTS neither of whom have let up on their read of you and push you then.

I as town need Egg because if town is to win the game, every town needs to agree on both scum. I find it much more likely that we'll have that discussion in 6P MYLO with enough people providing their perspectives of the game.

In my research into Egg meta, I noticed that he quickvoted an obvtown player in LYLO and lost town the game and I'm just trying to guard against that happening again by not letting this game get to a state where only one town vote is needed for a lynch.

I'm literally the only one propelling the game forward at this point so it might seem paranoid but I don't really trust anyone here with a LYLO. I want to complete this game while there are an even number of players.

If I'm somehow wrong on you, I'm open to listening, re-reading and re-assessing as long as you or others continue contributing to the game.

Your point about me "setting you up" doesn't sound genuine to me. Unless you are arguing that when I replaced in, I saw my partner (Blankface) as a likely wagon and then started hard-defending Hoopla for no reason, second-guessing my read, pouring mountains on content into the game and finally voting the player I was townreading instead of... just saying Hoopla is scummy and Blank is not and just ending it there. I mean, there's playing for towncred and there's actively playing against your wincon and I was doing everything possible to get reads and help town.

If you actually believe I started pushing on Egg, then went through a whole bunch of his games, then backtracked, and never stopped trying to read him all the way until now, and then about-turned and went for you, I don't know what to tell you.

If you are town, what I want is for you to go over your read on Egg in as much depth as you can detailing for me why you think he's town and why you think whoever else is scum is scum. I don't care if you scumread me. If your read is genuine enough that I see it as sincere, that's enough to convince me to go do a full re-read of the game.

[Wingback]

she pinged me the first post I read of hers.

Go ahead and explain why. Also, given we're in mylo, it absolutely is needed for you to give all your reads.

[Wingback]

I shall wait until LyLo.

^ Any town player reading this and putting their vote on no lynch so they can get to LYLO is being dumb and should feel bad.

[Wingback]

@Elyse, if Math is so obvscum, why aren't you voting Math?

[Wingback]

@Egg, when you finish up, if you don't mind, give me a summary of where you are at with your reads with some explanations for each of them.

[Wingback]

Mathblade's vote on Elyse is scummy and most likely a vote on a partner. I doubt she'd that put that scummy vote on a town player and make people second-guess. Makes much more sense to hammer after BBMolla and I vote if Elyse was town.

In any case, not doing anything until Egg lays out all his reads clearly.

Prod dodge. Need to read up...

Hopefully you have something good after the thorough reading you've done in the past four and a half hours.

[Wingback]

How is Elyse "winning the argument" exactly? I want to know your thought process here because I want to make sure I'm absolutely comfortable with you-town before proceeding.

I've laid out why Math is scum. I'll give you a short summary:

1. Math's over-reaction to my Hoopla hammer.
2. Math saying that Elyse and Hoopla are of the "same alignment." This is a ridiculous argument that I can't imagine town making but does make sense as scum to set up false associatives. Even if Math says that Elyse is bussing Hoopla (which is an absurd stretch), saying that Elyse is town if Hoopla is town is even more of a stretch and reads like Math wanting to clear her partner after mislynching Hoopla.
3. Math saying that you and me are scum and voting no lynch, and then out of nowhere, showing up to vote Elyse. Most of her play this game has been of the minimal "caught-scum-trying-to-plant-false-leads" type. There's a noticeable drop in activity level and pushes and it fits with the classic 2 scum mylo/lylo where you don't necessarily need to be townread but have to convince everyone that some townie is your partner.
4. Meta-experience. This fits with Math's scumgame and I'm not just claiming "meta" and leaving it at that. I explained exactly why if you look at the walls I've written.

Who is your best guess for an Elyse partner?

[Wingback]

You never responded to my point that as scum, I don't need Egg for anything. I don't need to make stuff up about how Egg won't vote you when I'd happily vote no lynch and once in 5P, allow KTS or BBMolla to quickvote you before hammering. Like if I was scum, I pretty much already have a path to victory so I'm confused about why you think I'm making up stuff about Egg not voting you.

You still never re-evaluated Egg. Your entire post to him is simply trying to persuade him because you think he'll be easier to sway than me who have mostly made up my mind, and not of actually trying to read his motivations. If your biggest reason for townreading Egg was his Hoopla push and him voting Hoopla over Grendel, you should have re-evaluated that and at the very least, came up with new reasons for townreading him.

[Wingback]

BBMolla has been calling Elyse/Mathblade team since the middle of D3 and never changed. KTS never removed his vote from you on D3 and was the first to vote you today. If not both of them, it's a pretty safe bet at least one of them would. No, the best move for a scumteam if Molla/KTS/Elyse are all town is to no lynch. If we no lynched early on in the day, providing content would have been completely unnecessary.

If Egg saying he'll vote you but asking for a case on Mathblade is townie, then you are stretching to a ridiculous amount to find any small straw to call him town and keep him as an ally. You still haven't tried to read him in the slightest. If he's scum with Math, why wouldn't he just wait for me or BBMolla to vote before hammering? His post reads as null to me.

[Wingback]

I'm asking you to show me where I'm going wrong if you are town but you are not doing that in the slightest. I asked you what you thought of Egg and you haven't tried to read him or re-read his posts at all, simply content to appeal to him which doesn't strike me as town motivated at all.

[Wingback]

And I find it hilarious that your response to Egg about why you are so sure Math was scum is a post that

I

made which while indicative of Math not being able to keep their story straight isn't some sort of "scumslip" as you are making it out to be. The supreme confidence feels more like you are grasping at whatever you can to bus your partner and I don't honestly believe you think that's a slip.

[Wingback]

I've already outlined what I think was the optimal play for scum-Elyse in my two walls at the beginning of the day. Bus Math for towncred. Kill BBMolla and KTS. Set up an Egg/Wingback/Elyse lylo given Egg and I were going after each other.

Once I threw a wrench in your plans by doing an about-turn on you, your optimal play then became the (slightly less optimal) play of Elyse vs Wingback in LYLO with Egg casting the deciding vote. That necessitates that you look as good as possible during the Mathblade lynch so you're pushing her with all sorts of stretchy reasons but with a whole lot of conviction "Mathblade is definitely scum for a non-existent slip, how could you guys lynch me!! Wing and Math are scum guys!"

You need Egg on your side so you absolutely refuse to re-evaluate him. You never even bother trying to figure out his alignment because he's not set on you but I am.

You most likely cannot get Egg lynched by "re-evaluating" him. You just don't have the numbers (BBMolla, KTS, and I are all scumreading you). You blow your shot and Egg turns against you so that doesn't work out. You are playing this EXACTLY like I would expect a scum-you to play. Buddying Egg. Stretching to call him town. Insisting that Math and I are scum and pushing your buddy first.

[Wingback]

@Egg;
1) Where did Elyse do a good job of addressing what I said? I'd like to see some specific examples so I can see where you are coming from.
2) Even if I no-lynched and nk'd one of BBMolla/KTS, that still leaves the other to vote Elyse in 5P LYLO in the scenario that I'm scum with Mathblade so that doesn't make any sense.
3) I actually AM considering Math and you as possible scum. I don't like one bit of your play today. You've been sitting on the fence pretty hard in those last few posts of yours. The only reason I'm more confident on Elyse is that for some reason, she's ignoring all of that and just appealing to you like she doesn't give a damn about your alignment and just wants to suck up to you. I'm trying to dissuade her from doing that if she's town and encourage her to assess your alignment so I can solidify reads on both of you and feel more confident.
4) Your wanting to lynch Math contradicts your previous post of not wanting Elyse/Egg/Wingback lylo because that's exactly what will happen if we lynch Mathblade and no offense but I don't really trust any one person to make the right decision here, and you haven't given me any reason yet to think you'd be accurate.
5) This is mylo so it's absolutely essential that you give your reads. That post reads more like you want an excuse for not posting your reads. I don't care what it might tell scum. I want to figure out if they are genuine.
6) Why do you care if most of us are assuming KTS and BBMolla are town? What's

your

read on them?

[Wingback]

No, I don't want your vote for Math. I want you to take firm, concrete stances on every player in the game. None of that "Math could be scum with either Elyse or Wingback" fence-sitting.

[Wingback]

I'm hotly debating which of Elyse or Egg are Mathblade's partner. Lynching Mathblade and getting to 3P is a pretty sure recipe for a loss given they won't vote each other.

I don't want to lynch Mathblade today. I want to lynch whichever of them is the partner. Then the auto-lynch on Mathblade ends the game.

Elyse, if you are town here, I really, really need you to look at Egg's posts and give your read on him in as much depth as you can. If you keep sucking up to him and calling him town for no reason and we wind up losing and he's scum, I'm putting this loss on you.

[Wingback]

It mostly pisses me off that the reason town is going to lose

^That feels genuine though. I might need to skim some Elyse LYLO games.

Knock yourself out. In reverse chronological order:

• Borderlands Mafia - Serial Killer, survived and won.
  
• Anything Goes Mafia - Elyse got lynched D4.
  
• You could be anyone IV - Elyse survived alone and won.
  
• Mini 1668 - Elyse survived and won with her partner Jake From State Farm (which I'm guessing is the same delightful Robbnva that was playing this game D1).
  
• You could be anyone III - She got lynched.
  
• Micro 241 - Elyse won as scum in 6P mylo. Her partner was Mastin2.
  
• Mini 1511 - Elyse won in 5P LYLO. Her partner was aphix I believe.
  
• Mini 1505 - Elyse won in 5P LYLO. I think her partner was garmr.
  
• Newbie 1327 - Survived and won with her partner Uberninja in 5p lylo.

Reading her ISO backwards should give you a decent idea of what she can fake in LYLO.

Going over this made me realize that she can fake quite a lot of ATE as scum. In fact, she successfully fakes ATE in a good majority of her scumgames, and tends to be pretty abrasive in pushing her targets. Given she won 7/9 scumgames (maybe more if I missed any), the things you are calling genuine are completely non-alignment indicative.

That she won games in the past isn't a reason to vote her but it's a damn good reason I want this game solved here and now. So, if you are town, I need you to make that more obvious because given the gamestate, lynching Math isn't really going to win it for us. Whichever of you is town has a horrible misread and need to fix it.

For the most part, Elyse makes sense for the reasons I've listed out in all my walls today. But your fence-sitting sends off all kinds of alarms and I really need you to be as transparent as you can so I can solve this game.

[Wingback]

Great. No response like I expected. You can hang.

[Wingback]

I mean, you are not even trying to pretend you are reading Egg. You're just trying to corral votes elsewhere even after I specifically told you that I'd re-evaluate as long as I see an honest effort from you which if you're town, you'd be jumping at.

[Wingback]

@Egg, bottomline, you said you'd be willing to vote Elyse today based on her confidence in the Mathblade push so I want your vote there.

[Wingback]

OH MY FUCKING GOD WINGBACK

IM NOT GONNA DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT WHEN YOU WANT

I WANT TO SEE IF BB AND KTS WOULD EVEN BE WILLING TO VOTE ANYONE BESIDES ME

OTHERWISE IM NOT GONNA WASTE MY TIME

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

I fully intend to do everything I can to make sure you die today if you don't convince otherwise.

If you want me to rethink, you can start by addressing my points against you.

The "I won't do what you want when you want" doesn't work given you had all of yesterday to respond and you stalled.

[Wingback]

Also, the "wasting your time" argument only makes sense from a scum perspective. If you are scum, you wouldn't want to waste time arguing your lynch and just hope your partner makes it through.

If you are town, your lynch would end the game, so I'd make that a priority if I were you.

[Wingback]

I don't need you to respond to my entire walls. I just need you to talk about your read on Egg. That's all.

[Wingback]

If you convince me you're town, I will put as much effort as I need to in order to talk to them and have them budge on you. And given I'm so invested in the game, I think I can pull it off.

[Wingback]

I'm just going to assume you are town for a minute and list out what's bothering me about this game.

In this scenario Mathblade is scum and BBMolla is town for Mathblade's whiteknighting of him. KTS is most likely town.

From my POV, that just leaves you and Egg. One of you are scum. If we lynch Mathblade today with you two hard-townreading each other, it's pretty much a loss at 3P. My focus is not on lynching "obvscum Mathblade," it's on figuring out which of you are town with an incorrect townread and which of you are scum playing the other.

For most of this day phase, I was leaning towards that scum being you. But the way Egg was fence-sitting on his read, not committing to anything, and in general being evasive has been sending all sorts of alarms that I no longer have the confidence I had in being scum. If I'm wrong and you are actually town here, help me figure out Egg. You've been completely pushing aside that Egg-read, not even trying to read him, just ATEing TO him which is the point when I said "If we lose, this is on you." I'm trying to read both of you but neither of you are attempting to read the other which makes it a bitch to figure out which of you is the townie and which is the scum happily going along for the ride.

If I'm wrong, then show me where I'm going wrong. Asking BBMolla and KTS who they'd be willing to vote for won't win us the game because we need BOTH scum dead to win.

[Wingback]

1) Post 1438

I asked you for SPECIFIC arguments that you thought Elyse made good points about. You just linked to a post of Elyse's, one that I had responded to. That doesn't answer my question. In your own words, what do you think she responded adequately to. Just give me what you remember off the top of your head.

2) 2 don't make a lynch in 5p. You'd still need me in that spot unless you NK'd me

I think you are missing something. If Math is my partner, I'd just vote no lynch and kill one BBMolla/KTS so red flags don't fly. Then when the other votes Elyse, Math and I would hammer. I don't need you in any spot to win as scum.

3) ok. you said you had your mind made basically made up and I thought you were being honest. Guess not. But yeah, I think all town should be open to ideas in LYLO, so the fact that you consider me to be on the fence doesn't bother me any.

It's the way you are being on the fence. I'm here in the game, consistently trying to garner information out of the town and making my motivations clear. The fact that you avoided the game thread for a day after you put your vote down on no lynch doesn't make your motives very clear to me. I'm also confused about your reads and your reasons for your reads. Have you re-read this game, thought about it, and re-assessed?

4) I know. It sucks but I'll do my best if that's what it comes down to. My goal is to be sure our next lynch is on scum. If we can be sure that Math is scum, I'm fine waiting a day to sort whoever is left. No lynch is still an option today or in 4p.

Well, if you are town, my best guess for scum is Elyse and that's who I want gone first.

The only read that matters today from anyone is the person they vote and the person who is lynched. The only reason anyone has to know more is scum trying to decide whether to NK that person. The exception is if I'm going to be lynched otherwise or if I need to explain logic for my vote as I've done already IF I decide to vote math. The fact that you want more has me thinking you're already planning a NK if your buddy is lynched.

Thanks for the links though. That gives me so much less work and I should be able to get to that within 24 hours. Elyse, can you verify that Wing didn't miss any recent LYLO games of yours?

Every read matters. I need to know more so I can figure out whether you are town or scum. I can't do that without you posting your reads and elaborating on them. I'm asking you for your reads not because I'm planning an NK but because I'm trying to read you.

[Wingback]

@Elyse;

re: Post 1514, I'm not sure how much more clearer I can make it.

Lynching one scum doesn't end the game. We need to lynch both. It's the same whether we mislynch now or we mislynch tomorrow. If we mislynch at all, we lose the game. There's no difference between losing the game today and losing it tomorrow. So, I have to figure out which of you or Egg are scum today.

Still strongly leaning you based on the latest response given you still haven't re-evaluated your read on Egg. Happy to lynch you and put this on you if you are somehow town here.

VOTE: Elyse

[Wingback]

Damnit Egg, I've seen how frustrating it is to get you to vote Elyse who you've been incorrectly townreading the whole game based on little more than above-average scumplay. I've outlined my reasons for why Elyse/Mathblade are the scumteam. BBMolla has pointed out why Elyse/Mathblade are the scumteam. KTS is voting Elyse. The one person who is townreading Elyse and who Elyse is buddying to is you. Based on that, why is it so hard for you to understand that I don't want you to get anywhere near LYLO? I don't trust you to vote scum. Sorry if that's offensive but this back-and-forth and reading past games of yours have convinced me that we figure this game out now or we're losing. Lynching obvscum today so you can get to LYLO isn't going to win us the game. I want us to win, not lose.

We seem to have a fundamental philosophical disagreement here. You can't just throw your hands in the air and hope that we win. We need to figure out all the answers, make a plan and implement it.

[Wingback]

Given I've calmed down a little knowing that Egg is town for sure, I'm going to take a 10 min walk and come back and outline exactly why Elyse/Mathblade are the scumteam and why they need to hang. I'll answer all your questions in-depth as long as you are willing to read.

[Wingback]

Holy fuck this is getting frustrating. But ok let me respond again with more details of something that doesn't matter. Let me remind you what I'm putting so much time into is why Elyse is argued better than you in one post which I don't think says anything about alignment. Give me time.

Given Elyse is at L-1 and you haven't hammered her, I'm quite certain that it's Elyse/Mathblade as opposed to you.

So, I don't need this.

I needed this earlier so I could read you (which makes it very much not useless) but Elyse's response was scumtastic and pretty much confirmed my suspicions enough to vote her.

[Wingback]

VOTE: Wingback

He just scumslipped

He said that me being at L-1 and Egg not hammering means that Egg is town

But if he was actually town he would realize that Egg and I could be scumbuddies

It has to be Wingback

I'm operating with the assumption that Math is scum. I don't think Egg and you are scumbuddies. I never claimed as such.

In fact, I explitly said that you and Egg are one-town/one-scum. It was just a matter of which. Now it's confirmed that it's you.

[Wingback]

Elyse's arguments don't hold any water. KTS is voting her and BBMolla said she was scum. You are the only one claiming that she's argued better and that's most likely because you've been in the game from the beginning and Elyse crafted her game around you to get you to townread her, and possibly because I spent a good portion of D3 pushing you.

Look at the game from an unbiased standpoint. If you're trying to decide which way you are leaning between me and Elyse, look at the amount of sheer man-hours I put into reading you. Calling you scum, then second-guessing my read based on your responses, scumreading you again for that claim to vote yourself, finding a scumgame where you did just that, then reading over two hundred posts of an ISO you linked me, seeing that the catchup mode and calling scumteams is a feature of your townplay, then re-assessing that and deducing that you a) wouldn't so blatantly tie your buddy Masq to a townie, and b) you wouldn't show up with Blank at five votes and ask what's the case on him if you were scum with him, and then finally coming down to you as town and Mathblade/Elyse as a scumteam. I doubt any scum player on site would be able to fake that level of read development. Even now, I had misgiving about your posting until I saw Elyse's response to me and concluded that it was Elyse/Mathblade.

Contrast that with Elyse's read on you. She's just reading you as town because she needs you as an ally. When I posted my case on you, she pretended that I had some good points but kept townreading you encouraging me to bring up more points so it's set as a you vs me without Elyse committing to the argument. It's the easiest read ever.

Now, she's pointing out nonsensical stuff like "scumslips" when it was extremely obvious from context that I was trying to figure out which of was Mathblade's partner and that your non-hammer showed me that it was Elyse.

[Wingback]

@Egg;

re: Post 1522,
1. What I pointed out about Elyse is that she responded to my case on you in a scummy way which doesn't fit her personality as town. "Each game is different" is a response every player gives when a difference in their meta is noticed. But this one actually has alignment-relevant motivations. Scum have more reason to be more receptive and pleasant than town and Elyse responded to my case on you in a way that doesn't fit her natural persona as town.

2. A town player who had the same amount of confidence Elyse had in her scumread on Hoopla does not say that someone derailing that lynch is playing "spectacularly." Activity level doesn't make a player spectacular. Lynching scum does. When townies are having their pet lynches derailed, they get frustrated. That "spectacular" comment makes a whole lot more sense as scum buddying me trying to get me to vote Hoopla because I was having misgivings about her.

3. I'm not how you are missing my point here. If I'm scum with Mathblade, I would no lynch. Then we'd kill BBMolla. Then KTS votes Elyse and we blitz for the win. There is no "wifom" here because you, Egg would still be alive and BBMolla explicitly said Elyse was scum so him winding up dead wouldn't cause KTS to second-guess.

Nah, we make the hard decisions when we have more info. if you are considering bbmolla or killthestory as scum or an egg/elyse team, fine. But if you think math is the second scum regardless, vote there.

This is outdated at this point. It's Math/Elyse, no one else. I want Elyse first, then Math.

[Wingback]

Which brings me back to my point from earlier.

If you are so sure that MathBlade is scum and BB/kts are town that you're willing to consider Egg conftown by not hammering me, you should've been voting MathBlade this entire day.

You're scum either way.

And stop acting like my Egg read has no validity. Just because I'm confident in it and didn't post a 95 page thesis about it doesn't mean it's any less valid than your read.

I have explained this point ten times already. Here it is a 11th time:

It doesn't matter if we lose today or tomorrow. I wanted to lynch the partner first because I want to give town the best chance of winning. Lynching Mathblade won't do anything to make us more likely to win. Lynching you makes Mathblade the auto-lynch tomorrow leading to a town win. I want to influence as many lynches as I can and the Mathblade lynch isn't one that I worry will be derailed.

[Wingback]

@BBMolla,

pretty confident it's Elyse and Mathblade. Egg is wrongly townreading Elyse so hammer Elyse and we can get Mathblade tomorrow and it's a win.

If we lynch Mathblade, it's going to be a repeat of the same things all over again and I don't even know what Egg is going to do with his vote.

[Wingback]

Haha, if I were scum with Mathblade, I'd be voting her so I can look amazing once she's dead (you know like what you were doing before).

I'm more concerned Egg isn't going to vote you in 4P or 3P so want you dead now. Mathblade goes after and town wins.

[Wingback]

I don't think "scared" is the right word but yeah, I think there's a decent chance Egg will vote whoever is in lylo that is not you. He might re-evaluate and re-read but eventually come to conclusion that Elyse was town and vote the other player. I don't want that to happen.

And it's completely silly that you keep asserting that my play here makes any sort of sense as scum when I could have voted no lynch, killed BBMolla, let KTS vote you and blitzed if I were scum with Math.

[Wingback]

He wouldn't vote you immediately but he would eventually and BBMolla dying is no reason to reset that read given BBMolla was calling you scum all along.

He was voting you all of D3 and D4. Of course, he wouldn't be an idiot to vote you because you're scum.

[Wingback]

Why are you unvoting?

[Wingback]

Elyse was at L-1. Put your vote back on and let BBMolla hammer.

[Wingback]

You marginalized my play into something that you would typically expect.

Wtf are you even talking about?

I don't care what your play is like given I have no intention of ever joining a game with you in it again.

Elyse and Mathblade are scum. Vote Elyse and lynch her. Then we lynch Mathblade and we win.

[Wingback]

I'm not "threatened" by your vote or "threatening" you with a "blacklist." I never even used that word. Your "playstyle" isn't one I have any intention of putting up with so I'm not going to do my best to avoid you in the future.

[Wingback]

How is Mathblade confirmed scum?

My scumreads are Elyse and Mathblade. That doesn't "confirm" them as anything. Those are my reads that I got after thorough analysis of the game.

[Wingback]

I meant "confirms" as in "I have a solid scumread on Mathblade based on that reaction." Rhetorically, it means that I have a strong scumread, not that she's in some way "confirmed" through night actions.

[Wingback]

KTS, I don't understand how this isn't clear after multiple times explaining it:

1. I think Elyse and Mathblade are the scumteam. I have strong scumreads on them both.
2. I don't expect Mathblade to carry the game but I expect Elyse to possible be able to.
3. So, I prefer the lynch order Elyse -> Mathblade.

So, put your vote back on Elyse and let BBMolla (whenever he gets here) and we lynch Mathblade tomorrow.

[Wingback]

So then, if you have a strong scumread on both, but you are assured that someone is Mathblade's partner, why not Mathblade first?

I don't get what you mean by "assured that someone is Mathblade's partner."

Elyse and Mathblade are partners. Both scum. One who can potentially win and one who can't. So, we eliminate the threat first and take care of Mathblade tomorrow.

[Wingback]

It's not Egg. If he were, he would have hammered Elyse.

[Wingback]

You are annoying me with your refusal to read the thread. I'm only going over this for the hundredth time because we're in mylo but pay attention this time.

When I thought it was Egg or Elyse partnered with Mathblade, I needed to figure out who it was and lynch them. Not doing so and just lynching Mathblade would put us in 4P and then in 3P with Egg, Elyse and someone else. Whoever the scum is would then win the game because neither Egg nor Elyse looked like they were re-evaluating their reads on each other.

On the other hand, if we lynched the partner first, then Mathblade would be auto-lynched the next day hence we would win.

It's a question of whether we make that choice now or allow Egg to make it unilaterally in lylo. I didn't trust him to make that call hence I felt that we should make it now.

All of this is irrelevant now though because we know it's not Egg and Mathblade. Egg can only be partnered with Elyse. If Egg is scum, Elyse HAS to be scum. So, Elyse is the only logical choice here. (Ftr, I don't think it's Egg/Elyse, I think it's Mathblade/Elyse).

[Wingback]

So Egg is town. I am town. BB is town.

That then leaves you, Elyse, and Mathblade. At this point, I'm not even going to try preflip associations. We're going to find scum, and we're going to lynch them. None of this "when he flips scum lynch that, that, and maybe that, oh, try that, too."

Great. Well Elyse is scum like you said. Let's lynch her.

[Wingback]

lol, a half assed buss on Elyse would be a terrible play in MyLo.

She just wanted to look scummier and make Elyse look townier. It makes no sense for her to vote a town Elyse when she could have simply waited for there to be three votes and then hammered. BBMolla was likely to vote Elyse which would have made three.

[Wingback]

But maybe you can answer the question: why would a scum-Mathblade place the second vote on town-Elyse when she could have simply waited to see which way the wind blew and hammered Elyse for the win?

That's scum distancing from other scum.

[Wingback]

I'm asking "IF Elyse was town, why would Mathblade vote her and risk turning the tide because of a scummy vote instead of withholding her vote until a town-Elyse was at L-1 and then hammering?"

[Wingback]

Well, we'll just have to see when BB shows up.

[Wingback]

Hey Killthestory, mind explaining exactly why you aren't voting Elyse?

[Wingback]

I'm frustrated with this game because none of the town players even seem interested in it.

First, when I replaced in, Egg and Grendel had a massive... ~banana~ for a Hoopla lynch. Whenever I pointed out why she was town, that was mostly ignored as you guys tunneled deeper than the longest tunnel in the world in Switzerland



(along with Elyse and Mathblade - the two scum), you made it so that nobody else could get lynched when I spent hours of my time trying to figure out who else it could be probing Egg, Elyse, and Mathblade.


Who could it be?

Finally, today I reach the conclusion that it was Elyse/Mathblade and that Egg was town. BBMolla's response is to make a grand total of two posts over the course of three days. One where he calls Elyse scum (and doesn't vote), one where he posts a wagon analysis claiming that he and KTS aren't scum together. Who cares? We all knew that anyways.

Egg's response is to basically conf-bias himself on his Elyse read and claim that her arguments were "better." I assume this is to exonerate him in endgame so that when I get annoyed at him for voting me, he can just say "oh, you were right but didn't CONVINCE me, convincing people is a part of mafia" which is a lecture I assume some people are going to give me if Elyse and Mathblade win because they can't be bothered to get correct reads.

KTS, There's no way to discuss anything with him because he dseon't tlak at a lveel taht msot popele can undrestnad and tihkns his plyastlye is a good one.

So, basically my job is to single-handedly solve the game, then spoonfeed the solution to each of you guys.



So I can be blamed for not being convincing enough. I don't know how to do that better than what I'm already reading. I'm trying to explain as well as I can why Elyse is scum, not doing a KTS or a BBMolla one-liner. You have my thoughts and thought progressions laid out in thread as clearly as you can see. If you won't read walls, I can do succint. If you want it in-depth, I can do it in-depth.

But for the love of mafia as a concept, put some effort into this. I bent over backwards to solve this game. I'm confident that I found the team. Win this game with me: Egg, BBMolla, KTS.

[Wingback]

I've only skimmed since my last post (will read later), but that wasn't a slip from Wing. Calling it that is hyperbole just like calling mathblade confirmed scum was hyperbole. It's weird for Wing to 180 on me just because I didn't vote Elyse, but it's definitely not a slip.

Put yourself in my head at that time.

Reads are as follows: BBMolla town, KTS town, Mathblade scum. Elyse is likely the partner but it could be Egg (very small chance).

Elyse makes a post that removes all doubt and makes me confident that it is indeed Elyse/Mathblade. So, I vote Elyse putting her at L-1. Egg doesn't hammer. Conclusion that I draw is that Egg is town. So, no not a weird 180. It makes sense from where my head was at that point.

[Wingback]

How do you equate an "Egg is town for sure" confident townread with garbage "scumslips" that Elyse is making up out of thin air?

We absolutely have to get both lynches right or we lose. Regardless, it's a moot point now given I'm equally certain both Elyse and Mathblade are scum. Confident that Elyse is the right lynch so yeah, that's where I want to go.

[Wingback]

Doing it your way is the mafia equivelant of a football reciever running before they've caught the ball. I don't want to drop the ball because my eye was on the endzone and not the ball.

Like I said, it's a moot point now.

I'm equally certain Elyse and Mathblade are scum. In fact, slightly more certain on Elyse given the N1 shenanigans where cmit tried to target her and failed. I think it could point to a scum ascetic role of some sort. Roleblocking cmit of all people seems unlikely.

[Wingback]

It's not hyperbole to say that I'm sure you are town. I'm indeed quite sure. But unless you are arguing that it's alignment-indicative, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Talk to me about your read on Elyse.

[Wingback]

Hoopla'a premise of a rolestopper may not be completely wrong (in which case Math would have to be that rolestopper given it would have been used on Elyse N1). In that case, lynching Math might be more optimal.

In any case, tired of repeatedly explaining to people why lynching Elyse yields a better shot at winning dayplay-wise and I don't want to spend all of my time for this game explaining a theory point over scumtells so I'm leaning towards going with Mathblade.

Will wait for BBMolla though before deciding, he better show up soon.

[Wingback]

Wingback effort does not mean town.

I prefer being scum and usually put more effort in when I'm scum.

@Egg
I use hyperbole all the time. It's a habit I should probably shake. But Wingback declaring you town by not voting me uses the assumption that MathBlade must be scum. If he's making this assumption as town, then there's no reason for him to not be voting MathBlade at first. Or he knows that we are not scum together because he's scum, meaning his declaration of you as town is correct.

Repeating the same point over and over doesn't make it true.

Already explained why lynching you is a more optimal play. Doesn't matter which read I'm more confident in. If I don't get both reads right, we lose anyways.

[Wingback]

And no, effort doesn't mean town but the complexity of how someone develops their read is often alignment-indicative. Scum typically take positions that are optimal for scum like finding someone who's townreading you and having a mutual hard-townread on each other (you and Egg). You Egg townread is complete garbage. You are only reading him as town because you need an ally, and any competent scumhunter would be able to tell that how I approached my read on Egg vs how you did are worlds apart.

[Wingback]

But another point against Wingback is manipulating people by assuming that no one will ever change their mind. He does this by saying kts and BB would vote me right away 100% if we got to 5P LyLo and that Egg and I would vote him 100% in 3P LyLo no matter what. These are both false and are the only things he's using to justify lynching me over his buddy MathBlade.

Manipulation is what you were doing with your Egg-read. You literally said Egg was town for pushing Hoopla with you but if Hoopla flipped town, you'd re-evaluate that read but didn't after I specifically asked you to several times. That's when I knew for certain that you were scum faking reads.

[Wingback]

I'm not "manipulating" anything by pointing out that with a no lynch and a kill on BB, a KTS vote for you would hand me the win. Similarly, with a no lynch and a kill on KTS, a BB vote would hand me the win. So, to argue that I'm scum pushing to lynch you TODAY is so ridiculous. Why would they re-evaluate their read when the person I would kill would have been scumreading you anyways?

[Wingback]

I did reevaluate it

And he's still town

His actions today are town town town

Obviously him not hammering me makes him conftown to me but even before that

This is not an honest attempt to read another player. This is rubbish buddying.

@Egg,

if you are incapable of distinguishing between someone trying to read you and someone buddying you, you need to re-assess how you are developing your reads.

[Wingback]

Nope. He made a bunch of null posts today, some of which had me paranoid that you were town and that he was "compromise" voting you so I pushed him further to investigate. You didn't wonder if he was town or scum who said that he'd vote you. You simply tried to do what you can to get him to not vote you (ATE) which hopefully he'll figure out isn't alignment indicative for you once he reads your scumgames.

That is not a town motivated reaction. That was pure scum.

[Wingback]

Yeah, great. This is probably why you were so tunneled in on a mislynch all of day three. Your conception of town motivated and scum motivated behavior is so off. I'll try and respond when I'm less annoyed but I'm done arguing with you about why Elyse is a better lynch.

So, fine. Let's lynch Mathblade. (Also, the point about rolestopper is there so). I forgot about that. Given how Elyse and Mathblade are behaving, I doubt Mathblade is the rolestopper since they wouldn't be doing a one-sided bus otherwise but it's worth a shot.

[Wingback]

VOTE: Mathblade

[Wingback]

If you are incapable of speaking to me like I'm a human being with a functioning brain, you need to re-assess how you are attempting to persuade me to work with you.

But this part is rich. All I said was that you need to better distinguish between scum buddying and town genuinely trying to read you and you somehow managed to convert this into me insulting your humanity and talking to you like not-a-human-being.

[Wingback]

1526 is exactly why Wing not voting Math makes no sense. Why would you not be willing to lynch someone you are just assuming is scum? Especially before my lack of Elyse vote when you weren't sure on Elyse.

If you were scum, it doesn't matter in the slightest whether I lynch Math first and then mislynch Elyse and lose. Or if I mislynch Elyse and straight up lose. The result is the same. I don't care if we lost to two scum or if we lost to one scum. Winning is winning and losing is losing. Elyse seemed a better target at the time because of how you were set on townreading her and not budging from there and also KTS had a vote on Elyse.

Have you even thought why in the world I would resist Math's lynch if I were scumpartners with her instead of taking the safer play, bussing and then going after a mislynch?

I wasn't even a threat to hypothetical Elysescum early in the game. I wasn't active and I haven't played a ton with her. Why would she craft her entire game specifically to me? You can't possibly believe half the shit you're spewing.

I'm not saying she came into the game crafting her play around appealing to Egg. I'm saying at some point, the two of you coalesced on your reads and started townreading/defending each other. Then it makes sense to continue to buddy you instead of losing the one ally she had. D3 was pretty much you/Elyse/Grendel in a bloc together. She knew she had to kill Grendel which pretty much just leaves you to keep in her pocket.

This is a fair point. You've done a shit ton of research and why bother as scum? I mean for town cred obviously, but still. That's a ton of work just for "lol towncred".

Given I have one completed scumgame where my development of reads was drastically different, that's actually a pretty big towntell. It's more how I wasn't content with the read I had on you and needed to make it better that I kept reading on and on is what I think is a pretty big reason I'm town. I suppose if I wanted towncred, I'd look up a few games and write a lot of words and somewhat emulate that town meta. But I wouldn't have the constant itch to continue to better my read which is basically all I was doing for the entirety of D3. I stalled the day so I could keep going to getting a better handle on the gamestate.

You tell me to be unbiased and then say things like the bolded...

That's exactly what I'm telling you to be unbiased about. She's just massaging your back telling you how lovely and town you are looking. Compare us side by side and you may not have liked that I pushed you, got reactions, then read some more and finally nailed down a townread, but if you are good scumhunter like you say you are, this should be really apparent.

Scumslip is a ridiculous phrase to use there. I don't disagree with that. But the point she was making is that the only person who should see me as confirmed town is Elyse if she's even town. So saying you know I'm town is hyperbole and she matched it with hyperbole of her own. That's why I'm so frustrated. One of you (hell possibly both) is probably town and using manipulative persuasion techniques and can't own up to it. I mean it's too late now but if one of you had been like "yeah that's what I was doing, sorry", I'd probably town read that.

Okay, look at it this way - The ONLY way you can be scum from my perspective is if you are scum with Elyse. I don't believe that. Everything I've done up until that point was to figure out which of you are scum because your interactions don't look like scum-scum at all. It looked like one of you were scum buddying a townie. Scum don't suck up to other scum which is exactly what Elyse was doing with you. So, from my perspective, you were town too for not hammering Elyse. I'm not using "manipulative persuasive" techniques and suggesting that I own up to crap I'm not doing is a pretty horrible way to get a townread.

^this. 100% this. Like if you (Wing) were a cop and came in with a guilty and were like "but let's lynch someone else", everyone would tell you you're bat shit crazy. Well, that seems to be about the level of confidence you are claiming with your mathblade read and yet you want to lynch Elyse.

Now I'm more confident on Elyse than Mathblade because of the night action stuff but I have my vote on Mathblade. I await you calling you batshit crazy.

I don't know. I haven't ruled out you being scum yet and I think bbmolla has more than the 1% chance you mention. Is no lynching still worth it? I feel like there's still info to be gained as much as Wing is trying to make sure there isn't (whether intentional or not). At the very least, I feel like you and I are on the same page with how late game should be played and no lynch is very standard here. I'd rather have the extra info to work with than lose the game because whoever is town in this mess can't get organized and work together.

You saw what KTS is like. It astounds me that you are comforable with a troll deciding a game that we've all spent hours of mental energy into. I'm not doing no lynch but I'll go for Mathblade. I think that's the point where we should compromise.

Wait. I just realized something skimming those meta links. Were none of those games where Elyse was town? Has she not been to LYLO as town or did Wing specifically pull scum games?

Specifically scum-games. I can pull towngames too if you like.

[Wingback]

1) Nah, you're trying too hard to fit your narrative here. It's hard to say for sure because I wasn't there, but the "one game" arguement sounds better than your "meta match" arguement.

Meta is probably the most abused tool in mafia. If used correctly, it gets results, if used incorrectly, it gives bad results.

My read on you was probably a perfect example of poor and good usage of meta. At first, when I was reading your games, I drew the conclusion that your scumplay was similar to this. Your push on Newbie matching your push on Masq was an example of incorrect meta. But I got past that to see what you are like as a scum player. Your persona in general, etc. Reading your scumgames was what helped me understand how you think as scum. With that understanding, I predicted that you'd never so blatantly tie Hoopla to Masq and that you wouldn't show up and ask for a case on Blank when he was at L-2. You are not the type to take unnecessary risks or going for all-or-nothing plays. You're careful, and methodical which allowed me to deduce that your play here doesn't fit your scumplay because the moves you made are not ones you would make as scum.

I have a similar read on Elyse. I caught a glimpse of her personality and how she generally reacts to in-thread events by playing with and interacting with her briefly when we were both town. Elyse as town is a to-the-point, no-nonsense type player who has little patience for someone derailing a lynch on her biggest scumread. She's not going to go call their play spectacular.

That's how I use meta and that's when I've been most accurate with it. Meta is like scumhunting and I won't claim every read I make is right just like every scumread I have won't be right. But when I have an in-depth read and a full understanding of a player's range of behaviors, I can predict fairly accurately how they would behave as either alignment. The important part about your meta (being methodical and scum and covering your bases) overrides superficial aspects like similarity to Newbie push and Masq push. I sometimes look at meta superficially but if I'm playing well, I often manage to replace that with deep enough reads.

I'm pointing all this out because I want you to see what I see with Elyse as scum, and if I'm not clear enough, I can possibly rephrase what I'm saying. I no longer need to read you of course but that doesn't make this point meaningless because my objective now is to show you what I see with regards to Elyse.

3) Oh, ok, yeah. I get you now. But you're assuming you know what killthestory would do which I still don't like. But you seem to believe it enough that maybe you're being honest here. Hmm... If our disagreement is strictly playstyle, which I'm not ruling out, you really need to convince me of that. Don't use hyperbole or talk to me like I'm dumb because I don't want to mislynch you for the loss just because we can't see eye to eye. It's not an easy decision. Don't pretend it is.

Perhaps it's not. Given Elyse's track-record as scum, I'm willing to assume she's putting forth an argument that from your perspective looks good.

The only really unconventional move I've made this game is to push for a non-Mathblade lynch for most of this day phase; one that's been hammered over and over and where we fundamentally disagree. Besides that, if you have queries on how I approached D3, feel free to probe there to get a better read.

I don't like anything about Wing's interactions with killthestory on page 62 for what it's worth. Predicting where killthestory will vote sounds like scum mindset and the "blacklist" arguement is more semantics. Even when killthestory votes Wing, the reaction to the vote is very caught off guard and it feels like scum who thought they were in control until then.

No. My reaction was intense frustration as town that despite the number of hours I've put into this game, we might lose because someone that is impossible to communicate with is going to vote me in lylo. A lot of things went through my head at that time among which are ("kts should be banned from playing mafia for the sake of everyone's sanity" "I'm going to WOTC KTS everytime I /in for a game" "I'll never allow him in any of my modded games" "If I somehow wind up in a game with him, I'll vote to policy lynch him D1" and "I wish we policy'd KTS D3 instead of lynching a good player like Hoopla.") After I thought it all through and settled, I decided to not say anything and just focus on why he does what he does. I'm not comfortable with him in a 5P or 3P lylo. I think it's a travesty to have the game decided by him.

Predicting where he would vote could be a scum mindset. I was using that hypothetical scum mindset to explain why I wouldn't be stalling a no lynch if I were scum here. But as town, we also need to know who our fellow townies are voting for because a large part of this game is building concensus.

Killthestory's 1562 is actually a very good point. Why would mathblade make that post as scum with Elyse? I also agree with 1564 that 1563 makes no sense. And the obvious answer to 1565 is that scum opportunism exists and momentum matters.

Mathblade had basically given up at that point so her moves are essentially WIFOM. Reading them with a straight face isn't likely to get us the right answers. Besides Mathblade unvoted now. If Elyse was town, Mathblade would have been happy to wait until BBMolla shows up to see if the lynch goes there. But the vote was there just for show.

[Wingback]

Ok you can stop with the "Elyse is massaging Egg's back" narrative. You're stretching what is a townread I've had on someone for the whole game into buddying.

Guess what? Sometimes people are able to form a read on someone and stick to it. I know you have trouble doing that, but it doesn't mean people who don't have some ulterior motive.

Yeah, except you stated zero reasons for townreading him besides pushing Hoopla but after Hoopla flipped, you are still townreading him for non-existent reasons and you never even provided new reasons to townread him.

[Wingback]

I asked the mod to force-replace KTS (which was duly ignored) but that's where my head's at.

[Wingback]

Really, go ahead and quote where you re-evaluated your read on Egg and presented new reasons for townreading him?

[Wingback]

And it's amusing that you (Egg) are arguing that I could be scum with Math when the biggest reason Math is even on the table for a lynch today is because I caught her based on her over-reaction to my Hoopla hammer and pegged Elyse as her partner.

[Wingback]

You could argue every instance of a player catching scum as "bussing" but I didn't bring it up, she wouldn't be the default lynch in the first place.

[Wingback]

Except Math would not have been front and center to the point of being obvscum if I hadn't pinned them down as one of the scum.

[Wingback]

If I were a troll I wouldn't have found you out as scum.

Well given that I'm town, this doesn't really help your case.

[Wingback]

Vote no lynch

I still want to do this. I don't see any result that hurts us.

I thought you were willing to go with Mathblade.

BBMolla is town because there's no way he's scum with Mathblade. The way Mathblade kept defending him on no basis whatsoever doesn't fit in with her bus-happy meta. Mathblade also white-knights townies when she's scum and her play around BBMolla is very close to what she does as scum with townies.

I'm confident in that because I've played with Mathblade and in the game I played with her, I went into an extensive meta-search of her during Night one. I would have posted it if not for Mathblade's fear that I would catch on and killing me that night. Mathblade's scum-meta is super-obvious which is why she was so fearful. This fits that scum-meta to a T. Her interactions with Elyse matches scum-Math's interactions with her partners 100%. Her white-knighting of BBMolla clears him because it matches how she treats town.

Holy cow, I wish Mathblade was in this game sooner. I'd have found the scumteam sooner if she were.

[Wingback]

@Egg

, read the following quotes and see whether they make more sense as scum talking about a townie or town talking about scum.

Evens is irrelevant if all the players incorrectly read town as scum. My point is that Cmit read BBMolla as town. If BBMolla scum they would have died eventually. Furthermore I skimmed BBMOlla's ISO and they are hella helpful. (Look at Mass Effect for example for a scum replace in for them)

When caught they trolled. Before that they were dead weight. Here they have a productive D1z furthermore I don't see them being scum with Hoopla based on what happened d1. This means Egg or KTS as I don't see BBMolla/Elyse. The only viable possibility here is BBMolla/Egg but even that is a huge stretch compared to Egg/KTS.

While it is literally possible for BBMolla to be scum it is very very very unlikely to the point of not considering their lynch today.

Took a glance at the game you are referring to (Mass Effect) and it's not helpful for meta at all given there are six different alignments. I'd classify it more as Mish Mash than mafia.

None of the things you listed are towntells or alignment-relevant. They are all easy things for scum to do to look helpful.

I have played with Molla face to face and on site. This is his town game.

I have not seen you make an argument why BBMolla is scum besides "not useful". I have said they were useful and your response is being helpful is what scum does to look town.

I do not ever plan on voting BBMolla without an argument. Of which I don't think anyone can do.

[Wingback]

You saw what KTS is like. It astounds me that you are comforable with a troll deciding a game that we've all spent hours of mental energy into. I'm not doing no lynch but I'll go for Mathblade. I think that's the point where we should compromise.

The first two sentences contradict the third. Think about it if you are town but don't reply to this. Seriously. If you are town, stop and think. Then reconsider the no lynch. As far as reading Elyse goes, I don't think we need to discuss it further today now that you are voting mathblade. Feel free to pick up where we left off if we make it to 4p or 3p though.

I want to echo killthestory and Elyse in saying Wing didn't "catch" mathblade. Math replaced Blank who has been discussed for a lynch since Day 1.

I thought about all the sentences I wrote and I don't see a contradiction. I don't want your preferred no lynch because I think it's a dumb idea when we've got two obvious scum in Elyse and Mathblade. I want Elyse first but given you are reluctant to vote her, at least vote the other scum.

[Wingback]

You know what, go ahead and spill it out. Your play is driving me up the wall but if I say you are playing poorly, then you take huge offense at it and it's pointless. Maybe play better if you are so sensitive. All of yesterday you tunneled on a town player and learned nothing from it. Now I pointed out two obvious scum and told you I wanted Elyse first, you went and said, you'll only be open to lynching Mathblade. Then I said "fine let's do Mathblade," you don't want to do even that and now you want to no lynch. Like, what the heck dude? You can't be that allergic to lynching scum.

[Wingback]

Elyse is simply telling you what you want to hear. She's propping you up as this amazing, beautiful beacon of town light and showering you with ATE, which is all she's been doing for the entirety of the game. I flat-out told you in no uncertain terms that I'm frustrated and that you should better determine who's honestly trying to read you and who's buddying you. Any above-average scumhunter would see the stark contrast between how Elyse treated you and how I did when you came into the game this morning. You want me to do what Elyse is doing, tell you that you are awesome, that you would make an amazing delicious fluffy Ham and Cheese Omelette once we put you on a frying pan etc. That's not how town behaves. I have been trying to convince you by providing evidence for my reads and explaining in-depth where I'm coming from and every time you post, you basically snipe at the most non-alignment-indicative things and miss my point entirely.

Pedit: you gotta be kidding me. Scum's best play is to nk you because to Elyse, you are confirmed town.

[Wingback]

I'm town. Can you see how from my perspective, I think this is a loss if we no lynch given where KTS is likely going to vote tomorrow?

[Wingback]

Well, Egg looks like this:



and I'm telling it like it is.

You're propping him up to be this:



to make him feel good.

[Wingback]

I want to echo killthestory and Elyse in saying Wing didn't "catch" mathblade. Math replaced Blank who has been discussed for a lynch since Day 1.

Given you refuse to vote Math, I don't think it's fair to say you "caught" Math.

[Wingback]

For all those townreading Elyse (Egg and KTS), I'm going to list out the scum motivation I see in her play. Better to do this at this point when I'm not conf-biased. This is going to be in absurd mind-numbing detail so if you hate walls, feel free to read the tl;dr version. But I'm town and on the suspect list of at least two other townies so I'm hoping this will both a) show you why Elyse is scum, and b) help you get a read on me by seeing my internal thought processes.

The first ping I got from Elyse when I replaced in and started catching up was her reaction to Vedith when she backs off of her initial BBMolla push. The push itself was weak but I want to focus more on the back-off in Post 181. I thought it was odd but not necessarily scum-motivated. Vedith correctly questions it and there was nothing at all scummy about his post but Elyse has a ridiculously overblown reaction (Post 197) to a completely innocuous post and scumreads Vedith for it. It looked to me like her awkward back-off was bait to see if anyone pushed her on it. Oftentimes, scum players who can hold their own in an argument try to get scumread by weaker town players so that those town players get overconfident in their pushes and alienate the rest of the town in a way that they don't get followed on their read. In effect, she's making Vedith

more

certain about his scumread on her to the point where he can't rationally explain it to the rest of the town. Once no one understands what you are ranting about, that makes you a much easier lynch which is exactly what happened with Vedith. It would be a fairly advanced scum strategy to pull off successfully but what makes great scumplay isn't posting convincing cases to mislynch players but baiting them into playing in a way that'll get them scumread by other townies.

Next look at the confidence in her Blankface read (Post 385 + Post 392). Given that, it stands out that most of her play around the Blankface/Vedith wagons was to shoot down the momentum on Blankface based on the reasoning that she doesn't want to out another role (Post 824). But more importantly, come D2, she completely forgets both the Blankface and BBMolla reads and goes for Hoopla instead. The "Masq is a good vote" statement looks like perfunctory distancing from a partner while laying down suspicion there so she can smoothly bus if the need arises. I initially townread her push on Hoopla because it seemed like she showed initiative in attacking one of the stronger players in this game and is a large part of why I reversed my scumread on her. But closer examination shows that Hoopla was the first to start getting suspicious of Elyse (Post 767) so I see this more as Elyse taking the pro-active stance to put Hoopla on the backfoot before the latter can start attacking. Regardless of your alignment, when you are the aggressor and your argument makes sense, you come off a lot more convincing than the person who's reacting to you.

Coming to Elyse's actual scumread on Hoopla (Post 885), it literally comes down to "Hoopla didn't push Blankface hard enough." That's it and nothing else. The entire wall makes this single point. Elyse is careful to not tie them together but it comes off as a post that is setting up the stage to push Hoopla should Blankface ever flip. If Blankface were town, there's no reason a scum-Hoopla wouldn't push harder since she can out an additional role. In fact this was Elyse's biggest reason for wanting Vedith dead over Blankface. So, this case heavily implies scum-to-scum association between Hoopla/Blankface. But then she does a little 3-card monte trick and pushes Blankface out of her primary reads (Post 985) because of the double-stalled wagons on D1 which is the same reasoning Hoopla used to read Blankface as town earlier (Post 857). So, now she's arguing that Blankface is town which completely undermines her Hoopla scumread because it basically amounted to "Hoopla didn't push Blankface hard enough." It's also odd that from here until Hoopla's lynch, Hoopla is always Elyse's top scumread when logic dictates that her Hoopla read was dependent on Blankface flipping scum. Besides Blankface quickly got voted up to L-2 so what was Hoopla supposed to do here exactly to push him harder?

When Masq starts getting wagoned, Elyse starts tying Hoopla to Masq instead re-inforcing Egg's thoughts about them being a potential team (Post 899). Switches to Masq when Masq's wagon picks up while making sure to tie Hoopla to Masq (Post 913).

Post 1122 is the most interesting post where it's apparent that Elyse is making up reads. She explicitly implies that Hoopla/Blank are a scumteam by pairing them together and saying that Hoopla had no intention of getting Blank lynched. It doesn't make any sense from a town-Blank standpoint because to a scum-Hoopla, it's all the same whether Vedith or Blank get lynched but in Blank's case, she outs a PR. Following through with this logic, she offers two potential scumteams (Masq/Blank/Hoopla or Masq/Blank/BBMolla) at the end of day two. Two things to note here: 1) Blank is scum in both scenarios, Hoopla is only scum in one. 2) Her scumread on Hoopla is dependent on Blank flipping scum. Based on this, it's incredibly scummy that she only wants Hoopla-blood all of D3. Her play upon Hoopla's claim (Post 1268, Post 1270) mirrors her play on Vedith's claim (Post 788, Post 800, Post 824). Both times Blankface was the opposing wagon, both times Elyse clearly supported the counterwagon to Blank. This despite Elyse's scumread on Blank.

Also, Post 1157 contradicts Post 1203. Is Hoopla-scum keeping BBMolla in her pocket or casting shade on him? Elyse just uses whichever argument fits her agenda. Then the solid Blank scumread fades away for no reason and it becomes Hoopla/Blank or Hoopla/Wingback. Then suddenly, that changes to saying that my read on Hoopla was "off" where she's treating me as town rather than say "obvscum defending his partner." Then there's her big post where she calls my play spectacular and I've pointed out every scummy thing she's done since then.

[Wingback]

The timeline of Elyse's read on Egg makes no sense. She says in Post 1438 at the beginning of D3 that she refuses the vote Egg. Yet, when I ask for reasoning about why she continued to townread Egg after Hoopla flipped town, she said that Egg's reachout to her and asking her for a case on Math showed town motivation (Post 1488). Yet, this happened

after

her Post 1438 where she said she refuses to vote Egg. The timeline is off and her read is fake and this fake read is one of the things that solidified to me that Egg was town and Mathblade/Elyse were the scumteam.

[Wingback]

On my play, I wish I had figured this out a little sooner. I think blaming everyone else for the Hoopla lynch might not be entirely accurate and is partly my frustration speaking. I think if I had the game figured out on D3, I could have gotten Grendel to sway his vote to Mathblade at the end and we'd have lynched Elyse today. So, this is on me for not solving the game soon enough. We can still win though because I solved it now but the gamestate changed to where I now have to convince everyone that I'm not scum.

I think I was outplayed by Elyse this day phase and it's not something I'd admit readily because I have a lot of confidence in my ability as a town player. Elyse not answering my questions seemed like baiting me to vote her so she could 1v1 analogous to her Vedith push. She saw that I was pretty set in scumreading her and decided that I'm the one she needs to push to win the game.

I keep hearing from Egg that Elyse is winning her argument with me and I literally don't know how to better explain it in a way that persuades you. You say that my meta read is trash and based on one game, that Elyse's dissonance in calling my play spectacular makes sense, that her ATE is town, and so on and so forth. I feel like whatever argument I bring up is shot down because apparently Elyse's arguments are all better, and every alignment-indicative thing I point out is deemed not null or worse, completely ignored.

I can accept losing to Elyse as she played so well but I'd hate it if we don't lynch Mathblade given she not only was obvious scum but cleared a townie I had doubts about (BBMolla) and made her partner really obvious, and I'm not losing to Math if I can help it.

I don't know what to do about Elyse. I got frustrated with you shooting down every post I made interpreting it in the worst possible manner, and not investigating how Elyse's fake-read on you contrasts with my genuine one. I'm putting all of my heart and soul out there hoping you guys see that I'm town here and if that's not enough, I got outplayed worse than I've ever been before and I'm hitting the limit of my ability. I could accept losing because I didn't figure out the scumteam out earlier on D3 and pushed Math over Hoopla and it's that little time lag that was the difference between winning and losing because if Math was gone and we still had Hoopla, I literally cannot see a scenario where we lose in that hypothetical.

I don't know how you are interpreting Elyse's arguments as better. Perhaps it's charisma, perhaps she's skilled at figuring out what people are thinking and playing to her audience. Perhaps she's good at tailoring her arguments to her audience (clearly I'm terrible at it given I wrote a massive wall to convince KTS, BBMolla, and Egg). Whatever she's doing she's doing it well and I'm completely lost here as to how I can make you see that I'm town but I really am town and as much as I hate to admit it, I feel like I've been thoroughly beaten.

[Wingback]

Forgot to post the Tl;dr I promised:

Why Elyse is scum: The short version

1. Elyse's push on Vedith looks to me like she was baiting him to push her given I don't think a town-Elyse would have found it suspicious of Vedith to ask a very reasonable question.
   
2. Elyse's read on Hoopla was solely because she didn't push Blankface harder on D1 and is dependent on Blankface being scum, yet Hoopla is always her primary push.
   
3. On D1 and D3, Elyse votes the counterwagon to Blankface's slot despite scumreading Blankface and subtly pushes those lynches through.
   
4. Elyse accuses Hoopla of keeping BBMolla in her pocket while simultaneously accusing her of throwing shade on him using whichever argument suits her agenda.
   
5. Her read on Egg is faked because early D4 after Hoopla flipped, she said she was confident in an Egg townread, yet when asked why, she points to Egg's reachout to her which came later and reeks of needing Egg as an ally.

If I'm not communicating any of these points clearly, feel free to look at the long version to see exactly what I mean.

[Wingback]

Lol at both the scumbags above.

[Wingback]

Well, I listed out the reasons I thought Elyse was scum and no one (including you) engaged with them so I don't really have anything to add.

I will say though that even if we no lynch today, we still have to figure out scum tomorrow. The only information we get from no lynching is to see who scum kill and that's something that'll be steeped in WIFOM and not as reliable a source of information as reading the game thread would be.

Given you are going to the extent of claiming I didn't "catch" Mathblade, this might be a good time to back your words up with a vote. If you think it's Mathblade + Elyse/Wingback, that's still a reason to vote Mathblade.

[Wingback]

Hi Expedience, I suggest reading through the thread and posting your thoughts. I'm fairly confident the scumteam is Mathblade and Elyse so I obviously wouldn't want you to listen to Math on her no lynch proposal. I think we should be lynching Mathblade. Given the vote count right above should tell you that it's basically a choice between lynching Math and no-lynching, I suggest taking her advice with a grain of salt.

[Wingback]

I'm still alive obviously because I replaced in D3 and the N3 kill was on the vig who counterclaimed a scum who fake-claimed vig. When could you possibly have killed me?

Also, Elyse clearly thinks she can mislynch me.

[Wingback]

That no lynch was ridiculous but I'm glad KTS is dead given the way he was playing. I had a feeling this might happen just because of how unpredictable/loose-cannon he was.

Down to lynch Mathblade or Elyse, whichever works for you two (Expedience and Egg). Very, very confident in that being the team. As an aside, my predecessor (Seraphim) caught the entire scumteam by D3 and hard-defended Hoopla while voting Mathblade. This should be a point against me-Mathblade being a team.

I can keep digging up more and more evidence but given Egg didn't read either the long version or the short version of my case on Elyse, I'm not really sure what else you need right now.

My primary reason for townreading BBMolla (Expedience's slot) is mostly interactions with Mathblade and Mathblade's whiteknighting of him. Before that, I didn't have a solid read although I liked when he pegged the scumteam as Elyse/Blankface because I too had suspicions of those two slots (Post 1285) at that time and thought they fit in well as partners.

As far as Mathblade is concerned, I'm beyond amazed that they weren't lynched the previous day since most of their posting amounted to trolling and trying to conceal who their partner is.

They didn't even care to look town,

they were just creating chaos to obscure who the partner was.

For example, they came into D4 saying that Egg and I were the scumteam and out of nowhere voted Elyse, then kept arguing for a no lynch which was the most neutral position that one can take. I'm super-excited about the KTS kill and the thought that we could actually win this despite our strongest PR getting modkilled in the middle of day one. Very much looking forward to Expedience's thoughts (I hope you used the night phase to catch up on the thread) and if you have any queries about me, I'm happy to answer those as well. I've pretty much laid out all my thoughts so just waiting on you and Egg.

Happy to bet the game on Mathblade's scumflip. If they're a rolestopper, Elyse is screwed. If not which is more likely, I'm bringing my sword and armor for the grand battle with Elyse tomorrow.

VOTE: Mathblade

[Wingback]

There's not a 100% evidence that excludes Elyse/Expedience from being partners but a few of the highlights:

1. Elyse pushing Hoopla for "de-confirming BBMolla" and the "Hoopla is trying to pocket BBMolla" arguments aren't ones I see as coming from a scumbuddy to another. I see it as much more likely that Elyse was working off of BBMolla-town assumption to make her Hoopla push.
2. BBMolla calling the team as Elyse/Blankface is another point where I found him to be quite town. It's not ironclad evidence given he could be putting in a partner with a town player.

But Mathblade does exist and I'm not developing reads in a vacuum. Mathblade's play all of yesterday reeks of trying to hide who their partner is. Town does not claim that you and me are partners and then suddenly out of nowhere vote Elyse in mylo. I think in the high-intensity argument between me and Elyse, it's being missed how obviously scum-motivated Mathblade's reads and actions are to the point where they basically gave up on even looking town and are just trying to post confusing interactions. I'll give you a few examples if you want.

[Wingback]

Okay, so look at Post 1480. All the while, Mathblade was claiming that the team was Egg/Wingback and suddenly without warning, they put a vote on Elyse for something that was clearly a joke. Then they disappear and don't post for the rest of the day. Given that both of you and me weren't voting at the time and KTS was, this gives free reign for a potential Wingback/Egg team to hammer so the complete lack of paranoia doesn't make any sense.

Look at all of Mathblade's posts before that:

I am pretty damn sure Wingback + Egg is the team

"Pretty damn sure" that we're the team but votes Elyse... just like that. Before that in Post 1437, it's the same Wingback/Egg theory. And before that in Post 1418, it's all three of Egg/Wing/KTS that need scrutiny.

My theory is that because Elyse was being wagoned, she asked Mathblade in the scum PT to vote her so as to create a paranoid reflex from the town and get unvotes, possibly lynching Mathblade. Elyse and Mathblade have been pretty set on Mathblade being the first lynch because an Elyse lynch basically loses them the game. Even if you don't buy Elyse-scum, we'll cross that bridge later. Mathblade's vote there makes zero sense as coming from town.

Mathblade's later posting is similarly bad, just making dumb arguments and creating chaos.

Lol was that like posted out of scum chat? If you think it's MathBlade+Elyse/Wingback. Generally people refer to themselves as "me".

This is a completely nonsensical tell in the same line as Elyse claiming I scumslipped by calling Egg town for not hammering her.

Their and I think it is you + Elyse but more sure on you.

This is just as ridiculous as the Hoopla/Elyse team Mathblade was proposing. They are tying whoever they want to Elyse but always having Elyse as a backpocket scumread. Classic scum behavior and Mathblade is certainly blatant enough as scum to do this.

[Wingback]

First off, given I'm massively confident you and Mathblade you are scum, of course I expect to 1v1 you tomorrow. I don't know whether it's going to be Egg or Expedience in lylo with us and I frankly don't care at this point.

[Wingback]

@Egg - you are a player in the game like any other with an unknown alignment. Figuring that out by grilling you on your reads and positions is the way I find out who the scumteam is. Keeping your reads secret this close to endgame is a ridiculously sub-optimal strategy. It's more important for me to read you than take wild guesses about your alignment by letting you not take reads and stances. I find that logic really bad which is the same type of logic some players use to not state their townreads when playing because apparently they think it'll tell the mafia who to kill or whatever. Transparency in reads is much, much more important than some idea of tricking the scum.

I didn't want discussion before no-lynching. I didn't want to no-lynch at all.

[Wingback]

What you are accusing me of (demanding that you state all your reads) is something that's actually a towntell. Elyse doesn't care about reading you because she already knows you are town.

Seriously, you came into the thread and said that you'd vote Elyse based on how confident she was that Mathblade was scum after being wrong about Hoopla. Then instead of laying low, I got suspicious that you were scum and started asking you a bunch of questions to nail down a solid read on you. Everything that's putting you off about me is me trying to read you. Something that Elyse is not doing in the slightest.

[Wingback]

Look at Mathblade's Post 1391 and Post 1394 and tell me if it's town talking about a scum player or scum bullshitting a townread on someone they know to be town.

[Wingback]

I hate pulling the self-meta card as it somewhat devalues my scumgame but here is my ISO in my completed scumgame on site. I linked you to the post where mylo starts. Key points: 1. I've repeatedly pushed for a no lynch given I genuinely believe it helps scum. 2. I played well enough to survive and win the game but what's missing is the crazy amount of motivation I have to read players. I posted "cases" and pushed townies but never did I try as hard to read anyone as I tried here to read you. I don't even play like this in all my towngames but I think this one game is the one I gave it everything I got and I'm really hoping you don't let this blow up in my face. Not once in that game did I get as frustrated as I am here and that's something that's fundamentally absent from my scumgame. I'm calm and composed and always have a plan. I can be quite calm as town too but here, I've gone so far outside the range of what is possible for me as scum that even a cursory glance should tell you I'm town here. I'm frustrated because I'm pouring it all out there. You say it wasn't easy to tell whether it's me or Elyse. Well, it wasn't exactly easy to figure out that you were town and Elyse was scum either. But I did what I had to do. I read whatever game you told me to read and I came to my conclusion and I expect nothing less from you.

[Wingback]

Here's an idea. Why don't you bus your partner?

Also, self-meta =/= ATE. I'd only bring it up under the most dire and critical circumstances because outling the differences between my town and scum play and basically showing people the differences isn't something that anyone would be comfortable with.

[Wingback]

No, I'm explaining why me over Elyse, not me over Math. I don't find stuff said in 3P LYLO to be very alignment-indicative so I find it a good idea to info-dump

before

3P LYLO as opposed to during.

Math's lynch today should be a given.

[Wingback]

Disagree but I don't think we're going to get anywhere so I'm fine with lynching Math and going from there.

[Wingback]

I'd suggest reading the posts I linked here as a good starting point:

Look at Mathblade's Post 1391 and Post 1394 and tell me if it's town talking about a scum player or scum bullshitting a townread on someone they know to be town.

And here's my meta-read on Math with relevant links:

The reason I'm confident it's not Mathblade/BBMolla is that Mathblade is incredibly obvious about who their scumpartners are. In Mini 1800, Mathblade killed me N1 because she was afraid that my research into their meta would help me figure out their alignment as well as her partners. Her posts in the scum PT (post 182, post 183, post 188 post 190, post 195, post 199, post 200) all show this.

Mathblade's townread on BBMolla doesn't make sense in the slightest as partner to partner interactions. For one, players who are natural bussers as scum find it a bit difficult to move into strongly townreading their partners the way Mathblade did. Secondly, the way she offered zero good reasons but had a high-confidence read based on nearly nothing fits very well into how Mathblade treats townies when they are town. See Mathblade's ISO in the game I'm talking about (Mini 1800) and Ctrl+F "johnny" who was the day one lynch and see Mathblade's comments on him. They continually defend him with no reasoning, just insisting that he was town. At one point, I felt like Mathblade was scum who knew that Johnny was town. I got the exact same feeling when Mathblade was defending BBMolla.

Obviously, there's going to be the argument of Mathblade manipulating her meta to trick me. The response to that is a) What I said above about players who bus. They tend to have an innate phobia of strongly townreading their partners because of how bad it might make them look, and b) The things I noticed about Mathblade are not behaviors that you can change on a whim.

Math/Elyse not only makes sense with Math's general meta, it fits with the general scum tactic of tying buddies to a townie. Both Mathblade and Elyse said that the other was scum with Hoopla but only wanted to lynch Hoopla. See Math's Post 1363 and all the quotes inside it. She says she doesn't see a world where Hoopla is scum and Elyse is town. Meaning if Hoopla is scum, Elyse HAS to be. By that logic, she should be voting Elyse. She doesn't. She's set on Hoopla.

Perhaps I'm being rather impatient here given the day has only opened a few hours earlier. But most of it is pent-up impatience from the past ten days of trying to get either one of the scum lynched and everyone sitting around on their hands and winding up no-lynching. If it's THAT important for you to hear Mathblade out, wait for them I guess. But to me, it seems very cut and dry. I can understand why it isn't so cut and dry to you if you haven't played with Mathblade before or have personal experience with them. The paranoia of BBMolla is justified if you don't have Mathblade as rock-solid scum given I too wasn't certain about him until recently. But the above links should help explain where I'm coming from.

[Wingback]

Mathblade posting up a storm elsewhere but stalling here should seal the deal.

[Wingback]

Wing, why didn't you vote Elyse instead of mathblade today?

Two reasons:

1. On the slight chance that Mathblade is a rolestopper or some other role that explains why cmitc1's N1 action on Elyse failed, we catch Elyse and win the game easily.

2. I feel like it's more viable given how reluctant you are to vote Elyse. This is my way of meeting you halfway and lynching someone you can agree with before leaving the hard part for tomorrow. If you want to lynch Elyse though, I'm down for it.

Oh. I feel like pointing out that Elyse and I didn't quickhammer mathblade so if anyone still had doubts there's that.

Yeah, this confirms you as town. You can't be scum with Elyse because you two didn't hammer and you can't be scum with anyone other than Elyse or you'd have hammered Elyse D4.

[Wingback]

What the fuck are you talking about? I AM 1v1'ing you.

[Wingback]

@Expedience, happy to go with Elyse today if you prefer.

VOTE: Elyse

[Wingback]

I'm town

Cool. Did you figure out why I voted Elyse?

[Wingback]

Here's why I switched my vote:

I'm 100% confident the scumteam is Mathblade and Elyse. When Expedience said that he'd rather vote Elyse, I realized that if both me and Expedience vote Elyse, that would put the scum in a very uncomfortable position where Mathblade has to either hammer or not. When Mathblade doesn't hammer Elyse, it makes it obvious that they are partners. If we lynch Mathblade then, lylo is easy mode.

Egg is all over the place. Felt that locking it down into Mathblade/Elyse or Wingback/Expedience would help him scumhunt better by eliminating more possibilities. I'm confident I'm right. My only worry is whether Egg is going to get it right and if he's brought to LYLO, I don't want to risk losing.

So, Expedience, if you trust me, vote Elyse and eliminate the me/Mathblade possibility. I suppose if me/Mathblade are the scumteam, Mathblade would hammer but that holds true no matter who is scum. Voting wrong loses the game.

[Wingback]

Wing, any team not involving math has already won if the votes stay how they are. The best thing we can do is just lynch math now.

I am 100% confident Math and Elyse are the scum. Talk about preaching to the choir.

[Wingback]

Mathblade is scum or we've already lost though.

Also not sure how I'm "all over the place" but ok lol

I'm trying to guard against you losing us the game in LYLO. What don't you get?

All this game, I've been trying and trying to make you see sense and you're playing so badly I've ran out of ways to show you that I'm town.

Now, someone replaced in who at least has correct reads. If Expedience votes Elyse, town win is pretty much guaranteed because Math's lack of hammer will confirm them as the scumteam and no amount of incorrect reads from you will change that.

Now you want to rush and vote Math? Wtf dude? Do you so badly want to lose you are trying to obstruct every single thing I do to win despite you?

[Wingback]

*I mean Math's lack of hammer on Elyse will confirm that the team is Math/Elyse.

I feel a lot better about confirming this when Expedience is still in the game rather than in LYLO when there's a 50% chance he's dead and I have to put up with you.

[Wingback]

If it were math/expedience, all they need to do is get online together and vote you or elyse. Why even give them that opportunity? Being "100% confident" is unnecessarily cocky at this point.

Not being able to solve the game even in LYLO is unnecessarily bad play. Ffs Egg, it's not Math/Expedience. It's Math/Elyse.

[Wingback]

Elyse is not town. Expedience is.

[Wingback]

Sometimes I wished you were the one who replaced out. That would give us a much better chance of winning.

[Wingback]

To claim that this game is unbearable for YOU when you've been doing your utter best to drive me up the wall and lose us this game is rich coming from you.

[Wingback]

And you don't know where I'll vote in LYLO. Quit acting like you do or like I'm some newb who has never played before. I've heard your arguements. I'm not skipping over it just because I'm not talking about all 2 million of your words. I don't see how you think I've played badly. We've lynched one scum and I voted masq from the very beginning. I had to twist your arm to make a standard play and no lynch at 6p LYLO. Now we have a very good chance to hit scum today and my vote is there and yours isn't. I want to lynch math now because I know no one's reads are perfect and if we are lynching math anyway (we are unless scum fucks us), why wait and give a potential math/expedience team a chance to win? Your condescending attitude is the biggest thing that will hurt us in this game especially if you and elyse are both town. It's not impossible.

It's not that I think you are newb. It's that for some goddamn reason, you are eating up everything Elyse is spewing when she's so obviously scum it's not funny. I explained this in depth. You didn't even give me the courtesy of acknowledging it. BBMolla nailed the team. My predecessor (Seraphim) nailed the team. A new replacement walked into the game and nailed the team.

But for whatever reason, everytime Elyse posts, you nod your head and go "yeah, that's a good argument" when she posts the most nonsensically inane things ever. I'm not going to sit by and not try every possible way to win. If I can game the system so that Elyse/Mathblade are confirmed scum to make you see sense, then that's what I'm going to to. I just need Expedience to have faith in me.

You played badly because the entirety of D3, you were tunneling obvtown in a way that basically killed her motivation to play and eventually made me paranoid that she gave up on the game. Then for ten straight days, I was trying to tell you to lynch Elyse and you wouldn't. I gave in and said "at least lynch Mathblade" and you wouldn't do that either despite Mathblade being so obvscum and just creating chaos, you no lynched because it's "safe" and you couldn't figure out who the scumteam was.

Math/Expedience are not the damn scumteam. I explained this to you repeatedly why. I showed you meta-links that show Mathblade's treatment of BBMolla clears him. You are ignoring that too. You basically want to lynch Mathblade because we'd lose anyways.

So, if you want to tunnel town, you do it day in and day out. But when I show you obvscum and tell you to vote them, you act all paralyzed and unable to vote. I'm at the end of my rope dealing with your inability to scumhunt this game. Like, can you not read the thread and figure out who the scum are?

I get the whole argument about how it's also important for townies to be transparent but if I were any more transparent here, I'd be invisible.

[Wingback]

I kind of hope the scumteam is Math/Expedience just so I can rub it in Wingback's face post-game

Not that I think that's the case but it would be delicious

@Expedience
I'm reaching out to you because I think you're actually probably town. Wingback literally said, "Let's lynch MathBlade first because if he's rolestopper then it will confirm Elyse is scum." And then he switches on to me and endangers the game if you were actually scum.

If you vote me the game is over. MathBlade hammers and they win. Are you THAT confident that the team is me/MathBlade rather than Wingback/MathBlade that you'd risk lynching me first just to satisfy Wingback's ego?

Ball's in your court.

Lol at Elyse spreading paranoia. She knows if Exp votes him, scum loses.

[Wingback]

Sorry Wingback couldn't hear you from up there on your horse

This behavior would be disgusting if you were town and the only reason you'll avoid a postgame scolding from me is because I can be a bitch when scum to advance my wincon.

P-edit:
Correct...

Bullshit. Trying to advance a town win in any way possible is not disgusting. It's playing to my wincon and it's perfectly acceptable to clear/confirm people based on hammers or the lack of them.

[Wingback]

The post you made above is actually a fuckload of manipulation. Yeah, I'm frustrated with Egg. To use that to try to turn him against me is so transparently manipulative, it's ridiculous if no one sees it.

[Wingback]

To think that I would "manipulate" Egg by being frustrated at him is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'd probably just do what you are doing and massage his ego day in and day out.

[Wingback]

I've pointed out several. Your posts on this page are all geared towards fake-empathy with Egg. Lol at "pissing you off." That's a low blow.

[Wingback]

I see ATEing as much as you have to be a low blow as I tend to play an analytic-logical game as scum. Trying to paint me as a bad person to get Egg to dislike me is the low blow.

[Wingback]

How am I acting like an asshole? You're making stuff up out of thin air. Being frustrated that Egg is wrong and ignoring everything I tell him is not being an asshole. Neither is thinking that Egg has a decent chance of losing us the game given his read on you.

[Wingback]

Yeah my fault wing. Should have been bowing down from the beginning. You're just better than me at life.

If you can't see how manipulative Elyse's posts on this page are, I don't know what to tell you.

[Wingback]

At least one thing this nightmare of a lylo taught me is do everything I can to never let a game go to lylo again and lynch all the scum first.

[Wingback]

That's rubbish. You are using my frustration with Egg to manipulate him and I'm amazed that he still hasn't seen it despite how transparent you're being and you basically dropped all pretense and are just hammering it home. If telling someone their reads are bad is being an asshole, that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard.

[Wingback]

This entire page is you massaging Egg's ego and posting nonsensical rhetoric about me and feeding off of my and Egg's mutual frustration with each other.

Quote where I was an asshole.

[Wingback]

The only think remotely dickish that I've said was affirming that him replacing out would make us more likely to win given a replacee is more likely to see through the targeted manipulation you are aiming at Egg. It's true but maybe not appropriate to say. I didn't say it out of the blue. Egg suggested that it was so unbearable for HIM to play with me that he wished he could replace out which is completely backwards given the gamestate and how frustrating it's been for me to get through to him. Just goes to show you are enjoying all this because it's helping you win.

[Wingback]

Well, you sure could have fooled me. I'd have been 10 times less annoyed if I thought you were willing to re-evaluate your read on Elyse but whatever. Just waiting on Expedience at this point.

[Wingback]

It's the fact that you haven't made any progress that frustrated me. I felt like someone with three hundred games worth of experience should have a relatively simple, small game nailed down. It's not like I haven't said anything on the matter. I explained in excruciating detail precisely why I feel the way I do and why I'm scumreading Elyse and Mathblade. You are still throwing around the possibility of me/Expedience, Math/Expedience, me/Math etc, when a good re-read of the thread and some solid scumhunting should help you figure out that it's not the case. I explained in-depth why and you gave no indication that you read any of the links I posted or even processed what I'm telling you. You are sitting there waiting for people to vote each other and then suggesting that we should lynch Mathblade because otherwise we've lost anyways. Then you suggest I'm cocky because I think I'm right in my reads. Well, if I didn't play the way I did forcing the interactions I did, we'd all probably be wondering if it was Egg/Expedience or Egg/Elyse or whatever the case until some derp votes town and scum quickhammer for the win as I've seen in countless lylos that have happened before. But because I've correctly nailed you down as town, you are now conftown and I guess I'm expecting you to read me and Elyse and Expedience and figure it out rather than suggesting that someone else do all the work. And that's the core of why I was annoyed - I expect you to also pick up the slack and pull your weight too.

[Wingback]

Will fully admit I'm a complete idiot that screwed up the game though if the scumteam is Math/Exp. Or actually ANYONE besides the two people I've been calling scum since D4.

[Wingback]

Hi Math! I could hammer you right now. Am I trolling or am I playing against my wincon or am I an idiot?

[Wingback]

The only other confirmation I want is Expedience voting Elyse which confirms Math as scum with Elyse. Then we hang Math (or Elyse). Either one works.

[Wingback]

@Expedience, you voting Elyse and Mathblade not hammering basically confirms both of them as scum together and wins us the game right away. If you are confident I'm town, I'd suggest going ahead and doing that.

UNVOTE:

[Wingback]

Hmm, trying to process what happened. Math would have seen Expedience's unvote in a preview edit so the vote for Elyse seems more like a way to scare us into thinking Elyse is town that Math was "trying to quickhammer."

[Wingback]

VOTE: Elyse

Can't see a scum Mathblade "pretending" to hammer a town-Elyse after they saw expedience unvote in a pedit. Happy voting here.

Pedit: LOL, there is no reason Math would say that if she weren't partnered with Elyse.

[Wingback]

Thought it through. Still don't see Math's behavior towards BBMolla as partner to partner. Elyse's play has been so ridiculously scummy and manipulative I can't see it as town. Math trying to tie Elyse and Hoopla together pretty much locks it in for me. Elyse's play throughout the game has been pretty scummy.

So, yeah. Feeling pretty confident it's Elyse/Math.