Mini 506: The Siena Syndicate - Game Over!

[clockwork]

roleclaiming cop, tyhess is scum

...

Seriously guys I'm not cop.

Let's avoid those sorts of jokes in the future. It's probably not meant as such, but it does look vaguely scummy (i.e. trying to plant the near-subliminal, coquettish "Maybe I am, maybe I'm not" idea) and it can make reading through back posts trickier later on.

Vote: Avinyl

for being the first to vote without giving a reason (e.g. "random").

[clockwork]

Unvote.

There's a lot of... "erratic" behavior going on here. I'm going to withdraw my vote and wait for people to sober up a bit.

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ChannelDelibird, I'm curious: Why have you left your vote on White?

FoS: originality

for either (a) using extremely faulty logic (and trying to cover it up afterwards) or (b) making very counterproductive jokes. (One of these must be true.)

[clockwork]

If you really want to vote for me for not understanding the jokes please go ahead.

Okay.

Vote: originality.

If you decide to start being productive, I may unvote.

[clockwork]

Maybe we have a Bus Driver amongst us. They could have switched Green Day with whomever the mafia targeted.

[clockwork]

1. Clockwork, right in the middle of the wagon, and seriously, a BUS DRIVER?

FoS Clockwork

will probably lead to that being my vote to start today rolling

Okay, how is being in the *middle* more suspicious than being at the end? Mind explaining that?

Plus I said I'd unvote him if he stopped being difficult -- not an offer I seem to remember any of you making. You're the one that actually hammered him, for crying out loud...

Also, what's your problem with me suggesting it could have been a bus driver? How is it any less likely than there being a doctor and a vigilante? I'd say it's more likely if only because it posits the existence of one non-town/mafia role and not two.

You're being very erratic, IMHO.

BTW, ChannelDelibird, did you have a reason for ducking my earlier question?

[clockwork]

Peers' "where do we put our effort" comment was indelicate (as was the "now this is entertainment" post White cited), but I think you guys are overreacting. Noticing a bandwagon is forming--and staying out of it--is not a scum-tell.

White's attack on ChronX's reasoning in post 98 strikes me as way too vicious for what is a clear and understandable explanation - you don't have to agree with it, but as far as I can see it's not damning. IGMEOY: White

Actually, I think White's response was appropriate. ChronX is going after people for bandwagoning against originality, all the while acting as though

his

vote (the hammer) is beyond reproach. White knew that was bogus and said so.

The so-called attack was considerably more chivalrous than the inflammatory remarks that induced it. To wit:

YOU started the bandwagon on Orig, drove it out of the random stage, and badgered the shit out of him throughout. Should we revisit your reasons and make you justify each utterance you made (17 posts on Day 1, the majority hammering on townie Orig)?

Anyway, thanks for the detailed post (#117), ChannelDelibird. This game needs more of that. Also, happy birthday.

[clockwork]

If Orig's play was jokey and unserious, why would you read back to it later?

I periodically read through the thread in its entirety. I.e., every single post. "Joke" posts are inconvenient because, especially weeks later, the jocularity isn't always apparent and one might misinterpret it. Do you really need this explained to you?

Was your vote of Avinyl random? Given your complaints about others playing erratically and jokey, your stated reason would then be construed as serious.

No, I gave a reason when I cast the vote -- he was the first to vote without an explanation. I would prefer that people share their reasons for voting. Again, are you kidding me with this? This is beyond nitpicking.

ChannelDelibird, I'm curious: Why have you left your vote on White?

I'm curious, why are you protecting White? You do it again later.
Second thought is fine on its own merits.

Mine was a fair question. It's hardly "protecting." If someone had voted you for a flimsy reason and didn't unvote for a long time I would have questioned that as well. Had he forgotten about it or had White said something to re-arouse his suspicion? When I'm unclear on someone's motivations, I ask questions. Isn't this SOP for the game?

Vote: originality.

If you decide to start being productive, I may unvote.

Translation: "If you start being more productive, this bandwagon will die and I will need to look for another one to hide in"

Alright, I'm starting to think you have some kind of personal vendetta against me. I could take virtually any statement you've made in this game and twist it in a similar way. It's not productive.

Next post: Suggests bus driver. I believe in Occams Razor. We already know we had a Roleblocker. Do we seriously think in a mini normal game we would have the potential for a Roleblocker AND any sort of Role reflector (Bus driver, Bomb, whatever)?

I've already said why I think a bus driver role is more likely. If you disagree, wonderful. But I don't think my

guess

, right or wrong, says anything about my scumminess or lack thereof.

BTW, ChannelDelibird, did you have a reason for ducking my earlier question?

Working backwards, why are you STILL defending White from CDB's random vote of him?

First off, I had no problem with the vote. It was the fact that he had left it on so long, after the vast majority had changed their early (uninformed) votes, that made me curious.

I'm not defending White. But when I think someone's getting a raw deal (being treated unfairly), like Peers was IMO, I'll speak up. It's not usually great game strategy since helping people can make one look scummy, but it's how I want to play.

Gotta go. Avinyl, looking forward to your LoS.

[clockwork]

Avinyl and VampanezeHunter, you both seem to have aborted posting your LoS's. Any particular reason why? Did something happen that made you reconsider?

Ditto on Peers's comment. Tyhess, you've only made five posts this whole game and the last one was almost a week ago.

[clockwork]

I don't see the connection between the two sentences here. Where in Peers' post is he "noticing a bandwagon is forming - and staying out of it"? And what does it have to do with his "where do we put our efforts" line?

Sentence 1 references posts #93 and #28. Sentence 2 is a response to White's thoughts on #28 (seen in #118). I should've bridged them better.

clockwork, could you remind me where you explain your reasoning behind why you believe a Bus Driver is more likely?

In post #109 I say I think it's more likely because it posits the existence of only one additional special role (i.e. non-vanilla-town, non-vanilla-mafia), and not two (which others seem to find more likely).

I don't really see why my guess matters though. If I were mafia, wouldn't I have the same information about the N1 events as the town?

[clockwork]

On Cynic Clinic:

I think his play has been very coherent so far. The only (very minor) scum-vibes I've gotten from him are (a) his paranoia in post #81, where he distorted an insult/vote from ChronX (#34) into a (possibly) majority opinion against him and (b) that he put originality to L-1 (though that's still less suspicious than actually hammering, IMO). But these are small incidents; not enough to elicit an "IGMEOY" from me. I like him for now.

On VampanezeHunter:

I like that he jumped off the bandwagon ASAP when one appeared to be forming around Cynic Clinic. Being the first to vote, he could've left it there without looking fishy. And he gave originality ample warning before voting for him. Courteous and reasonable, gets some brownie points in my book.

His LoS in post #116 was flimsy, but I think he was just saying that he hadn't gotten any real scum-vibes and that these were just some possible leads. His most recent LoS (#159) was more sloppy, but I'm inclined to chalk that up to being short on time and a bit IC-challenged (no offense). I'd like to see him write something substantial that would let me get a handle on his style, grasp of the game, etc. Like, a detailed PBPA or something.

I'd still put him in the town pile, but I'm less confident in him than I am in Cynic Clinic.

HTH

[clockwork]

So White... mind explaining your ChannelDelibird "bandwagon" vote? It doesn't matter as much now, but I'm curious why you did it.

VampanezeHunter, I urge you to respond the allegations piling up against you

soon

.

[clockwork]

What I can't see any aligations please tell me

Post #168 is the major one. #166 and #117 also have some.

Mod: You were voting CDB, but I'll count that in the next VC (Obviously)

Not to step on any toes, but he unvoted CDB and voted VH at the end of post #168.

Mod: So he did! Thanks for catching that, I'll update it in the next votecount.

Clock, the vote was purely for conversational purposes.

Hm. Okay, thanks.

[clockwork]

Clockwork's ContributeOrDie post

To which post are you referring here?

BTW, Avinyl, the list you promised on the 2nd is now 9 days overdue. What gives?

[clockwork]

Re: Avinyl: The stuff against Peers is poorly explained. If you were truly basing your vote on that, I would've expected you to include some kind of response to his past counterarguments.

Vote: Avinyl.

[clockwork]

Two (two!) votes is hardly a "popular wagon." It's not a wagon at all. The thing going on VampanezeHunter --

that's

a wagon.

But I'm not surprised ChronX would look for any excuse to vote me -- I've noted his personal vendetta against me before (re: #125) and he never denied it (nor did anyone disagree with my assessment, IIRC). By his reasoning I'm not allowed to vote at all -- any vote I make must be part of a wagon and my position in that wagon always screams "scum," right? Middle, beginning, it doesn't matter to him.

I stand by my Avinyl vote for now. I can be convinced to unvote, but it's going to take a little more than the bare bones posts he's been making lately.

[clockwork]

Still here, but losing interest in this game. Everyone's getting replaced -- like, what's the point anymore?

Mod: You have atleast 7 active/potentially active players. If newbie games can run effectively, so can this.

Leaving my vote on Avinyl till he says something substantial in his defense. I wouldn't be surprised if he's gone no-show because of all this replacement fever and low activity too.

[clockwork]

Clockwork:

What do you think of the players who have expressed suspicion of you? What do you think of the "case" against you?

My current accusers are ChronX, Gorrad, and yourself (though only two of you are actually voting for me ATM).

ChronX, as I've said before, has a personal grudge against me. Why? I have no idea. No one (ChronX included) denies it, but he doesn't offer an explanation either. I think it's right scummy but I've been reluctant to deem it such for fear of being perceived as an OMGUSer. (After getting crucified for

suggesting

the

possiblity

that we might have a bus driver in the game I became more wary of this sort of thing.)

The entirety of Gorrad's case against me is this:

Clockwork- STRONG scum vibes. Some gut, but his play really seems off.

Gut feelings, "vibes," "play really seems off"... To quote an old SNL sketch, "I'm sorry, could you be more vague?"

I'm not sure how I'm expected to rebut a weak case like this. Maybe that was his intent.

Which brings me to you, Glork.

I thought I remembered you giving some sensible reasons for suspecting me. But reading back, I'm not finding a whole lot. You suspicion of me seems to boil down to only two things (please correct me if I missed something): You didn't like that I voted for originality, and you disagree with my Avinyl vote.

Regarding originality: We've been over this before, but I'll recap a little. I was one of seven people that voted. Yet you don't suspect all of them. In fact, ChronX (who actually hammered) is clean in your eyes. From post #191:

I'm more suspicious of the people who set him up rather than the guy who knocked him down.

No explanation follows.

Most of us (that is, the ones that didn't replace into this game) got to experience the originality thing first hand. I believe even White, whom you seem to consider confirmed town, has said that the guy was a bad player and pretty much deserved what he got.

It's not like he didn't have any second chances either. For my part, I warned him about the phony role-claims. I even said I'd unvote if he'd settle down and stop wasting our time. But he didn't listen. To be honest, I'm not particularly upset that we lynched him. If he'd lived I'm sure he would've continued making scum-hunting difficult. It's too bad his role didn't go to a competent player.

Regarding the Avinyl vote: I'm not trying to lynch him. If he suddenly accrued two more votes I would definitely unvote. But he lurks a lot (never posting in the V/LA thread) and doesn't support his votes well. I was hoping I could pressure him into meaningful contribution. It doesn't seem to be working. Having made this disclosure (which rather defeats the purpose of the vote), I'll

unvote

.

HTH.

[clockwork]

It's only page 11, there's no rush to end d1 yet. But, as you wish,

Vote: Peers

for trying to rush things so early.

I don't know where to begin. Calling for more activity from the reticent/lurky players isn't a scumtell. Fearing "rushing" in this game is asinine anyway -- have you not noticed how slowly things have been happening? The mod's been forced to set a deadline, CDB hasn't posted in 8 days, White just replaced out... All Peers did was make a small effort to stir the pot and

this

is how you react?

Before now I was willing to overlook your poorly thought out suspicions because you replaced VampanezeHunter and I was pretty sure he was just a slightly-inept townie. But this is too irrational. I don't think you're following through on that promise you made in post #249.

FoS: Gorrad.

We're on D2, BTW.

[clockwork]

Wow, there've been some very interesting developments here since yesterday afternoon!

Re: Gorrad's vote (#258-263): I think I gave him too much credit. That is, I mistook severe confusion for malice. Frex, I corrected his D1 statement thinking it was probably a typo -- but he actually didn't know we were on D2. Plus he acted very reasonably with regards to Peers's follow-up posts. I'm going to reduce my FoS on him to an IGMEOY.

Re: Oman's post #266: I agree very much with most of this. My only points of dissent are that I think he's a little too hard on Avinyl and a little too soft on Glork. Otherwise it's gold.

Re: ooba's role-claim (#271): Perplexing. I'm inclined to believe him because he did it at a very non-critical juncture. I know if I were a cop (assuming there is one), ooba/Hadhfang would've been pretty far down on my list of people to investigate. 4th place at

best

, IMO.

Re: ChronX's complaint about Oman's "personal vote" (#276): Pot, meet kettle. Granted, Oman's subsequent name-calling was very inappropriate. But ChronX's "he doesn't play the game right" grumbling is just funny, considering the source.

Some clarification on my current stances on people (from least suspicious to most):

• IGMEOY(probationary): ooba
  IGMEOY: Avinyl
  IGMEOY: Glork
  FoS: ChronX

Actually, I'll go ahead and

vote: ChronX

here.

[clockwork]

EBWOP -- when I said "IGMEOY(probationary): ooba", I meant Gorrad. Sorry about that.

ChronX, thanks for confirming everything I've said about you.

[clockwork]

Re: ChronX: I said before that I didn't approve of the name-calling and personal attacks directed at you. Yet somehow you've decided to make me the target of all your vitriol and pettiness anyway. Until you can act like a respectable human being, I'm done with you.

(To others: Should I somehow be lynched and my role be revealed by the mod, please remember who pushed hardest for my death.)

[clockwork]

Hm, sorry about that -- I didn't realize. I'm still learning though -- this is only my second game.

[clockwork]

Thanks for dropping the sarcasm. To answer your question, I'm not 100% sure on Oman/White. I'm not 100% on anybody.

[clockwork]

Mod, my vote total should be 1.

Thanks for pointing that out. In future, it'd be easier if people PMed me these things, but thanks anyway.

[clockwork]

Alright, if Peers and Oman think Avinyl's scum, I guess that's good enough for me.

Vote: Avinyl.

[clockwork]

At least something's finally happening.

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One thing, though, Clockwork: Earlier you said you weren't voting Avinyl to lynch him. Are you doing so now? Why or why not?

Well, Avinyl is useless and lurky. But I'm not really convinced he's scum. But I think Oman's town, and Peers has seemed fairly towny to me for a while, so I'm willing to lend them my support.

My heart's not in it, obviously, but this game's become so messed up/dead that I'm more inclined to gamble now.

[clockwork]

I'd probably unvote, watch their behavior as we neared the deadline, and, if ChronX's replacement hadn't redeemed his former self, vote for him. ('Course, it probably wouldn't make any difference.) Almost anything

productive

from Avinyl/his replacement would be enough for me to unvote him.

[clockwork]

Vote: Glork.

[clockwork]

Afterthought, for Glork: Because you're being bossy and putting down people who I think are playing decently.

[clockwork]

Clockwork, if you think I'm scum, present a case that's relevatnt to the game. But don't toss your vote around because I'm bossy.

Perhaps "bossy" isn't the right word. "Manipulative" is more apt. And manipulation is a key tactic for mafia. (BTW, isn't it funny that I call you bossy and you respond by giving me orders? Heh.)

Also, I know my credibility is basically shot in this game. I'm not eager to waste time and energy on a PBPA attempting to prove your scumminess knowing most players will discount it. Who would I sway? Peers? ooba? One of the numerous absentees? Nah, from here on out I'm voting my whims and hunches. And right now, you look scummiest to me. If you want me to change my vote,

you

do the work.

(Nothing personal, of course. You seem like a good guy.)

[clockwork]

It wouldn't be a NL. Avinyl would be lynched because he has 3 votes.

If the discussion is lagging, I may set a deadline. Only half the normal amount of votes will be required to lynch at deadline, rounded up (If multiple players are at over half of the votes, the player has the highest total, or has reached that total first will be lynched).

[clockwork]

Okay fine. I would like everyone who is not voting Avinyl to say why.

Cuz Glork's scummier IMO (and didn't respond to my last post). Also, because Avinyl will probably get lynched on the 7th anyway.

I presented a case on him a few pages back

Are you talking about post #266?

[clockwork]

If there's a compelling case, Oman, you would do well to point it out to us, rather than just voting without explanation.

Quagmire replaced ChronX, whom Oman was voting for before Avinyl -- if you want a case, look at the volumes written about ChronX's scumminess prior to the replacement. Plus Quagmire is starting to look like one of these unreliable "promise to post later" types. Since he's made no attempt to justify his predecessor's actions, I have no problem lynching him.

Unvote.
Vote: Quagmire.

[clockwork]

EBWOP: Doh, Oman beat me to the punch.

[clockwork]

I guess Quags should claim right about now, even though he's not even had a chance to do anything yet.

He's been here for three days and hasn't posted in the V/LA thread. He's had chances.

[clockwork]

"The guy who he's replacing was acting scummy, so this guy who just joined in is automatically scummy too!" is total BS.

I'm not defending (or condemning) that particular act, but his logic does make sense. When you replace into a game you take the onus for your predecessor's actions.

[clockwork]

I understand that a death in my family makes me scummy.

(Forgive me if you find this indelicate, but since you've chosen to bring it up multiple times:)

Talk about transparent attempts to play on peoples' sympathies... BTW, thought it was your

roommate's

father? I'm not saying you're lying, but people that do usually have a harder time keeping their stories straight. If I were an unscrupulous mafia with three votes on me, I might go to some lengths to get a deadline extension. And given that you've admitted you're a lurker (see wiki), you might, hypothetically, fight for as much time as possible for more active people (Glork, perhaps?) to push suspicion around and take your head off the chopping block.

In any case, there was no call for your blatant distortion of Gorrad's reasoning in #420.

[clockwork]

EBWOP: Missed a tag. Above quote is Quagmire's, not Gorrad's. Should be obvious anyway.

[clockwork]

unvote, Vote: Oman

He should claim about now.

How do you reconcile this with the "happy lynch list" you posted in #429? Or is it just a shameless pressure vote? You (ineffectually) directed Quagmie to do the same thing in #408 and he didn't end up claiming (well, soft-claiming) until #451. I doubt Oman's going to be anymore easily influenced -- and I think you know that.

[clockwork]

So, Oman, you really don't think Quagmire's scum? Assuming he's not, do you think he's a better asset to the town than you are?

Surely you realize you could save yourself by voting for Quagmire. So even given that you believe he's town and you know you're town, you must think he'll be more useful to us in the coming days than you will be, no? If not, why not throw him under the bus? Humor me.

[clockwork]

Re: Lynch results & N2 events: Wow.

My guess is that he didn't save himself because he had a guilty result on me.

I take it you meant to say a

not

-guilty result. But if that were the case, why would he have voted for you multiple times on day 2 (e.g. #407, #395)?

[clockwork]

or he didn't stop a death... because the SK wasn't paying attention to the game anymore and never sent in a kill.

But the time limit for sending in N2 actions was 72 hours; the mod came back with results in ~22 hours. If there

is

an SK, he must have responded or else D3 wouldn't have started until Nov. 17th.

Mod:

ChannelDelibird hasn't been replaced despite having been inactive here since Oct. 27th. Does that mean he's been picking up prods?

[clockwork]

And if there's no vig, we know we're dealing with 2 scum and an SK.

Anyone opposed?

Sounds good to me, though I'd like to point out that it's still possible (likely even, IMHO) that a bus driver role has been responsible for the unusual night actions.

BTW, unless I see something to change my mind, I intend to vote Quagmire after we've had a suitable period of discussion. Just putting that out there.

[clockwork]

Quagmire, just to be clear, you've claimed as a vanilla townie. Is that right?

Gorrad, go ahead and count me in your project if it proceeds. But I'd rather not formally FoS right now since it seems unnecessarily inflammatory.

[clockwork]

I know this is risky, but I've got a hunch he's not going to get quickbussed...

vote: Quag

Isn't this the hammer? By my count, Quagmire is now being voted for by ooba, WaterboyWaldo, OctoberRaven, Gorrad, and Peers. That's five, right?

[clockwork]

Oh wait, I missed ooba's unvote in #516. Nevermind.

[clockwork]

Alright, I'm hammering. I never found his claims convincing. Hopefully the holiday will cause some difficulties for the mafia during their night deliberation.

Vote: Quagmire.