Okay folks let's trot on over to Day 2.
Toto's first post is:
In post 1524, Toto wrote:
So I guess it's Grapes or Dunn at this point. Or both.
I don't know why Grapes wouldn't play along if Dunn had indeed visited them. Regardless of Grapes alignment.
Dunn could be scum trying to get their partner more credence once they get themselves lynched.
Dunn could also be WIFOMing to get us to doubt Grapes because of the above.
It is hard to discard for me any of the two options.
One thing seems almost sure based on the above: Dunn is scum.
VOTE: Dunn
Where he begins a "push" on Dunn.
Here comes the bus
In post 1558, Dunnstral wrote:I am a friendly neighbor.
Unfortunately grapes doesn't even have to be lying (and if they are, there's no way to pin it on them) because It's possible I was roleblocked after claiming
Toto is scum for sure in a scenario where Grapes is town. The way hey came in and said that on of us h ad to be scum looked really bad and looked like setting up two mislynches in a row or the vig shot
Panther prodding me about my visit target and then not responding to that anymore after Grapes came on also looks bad. He knew that one way or another Grapes would be saying they recieved no message. Same with Nosferatu to a lesser extent
Dunn scum claims grapes is town to garner towncred for his fake roleclaim. It's a smart move.
What's faulty here is how telling it is mentions Toto. I think here you can tell that at this point that he did not think his claim was going to keep him alive for very long.
Basically, he's distancing here. But it's really stupid distancing that gives him away because in the situation that we had (Dunn fake claiming a visit on grapes) where no one knows that Dunn is lying yet, a fair and probably the most standard town rationale would be to say that one of the two are lying. It's basic common sense. Dunn is quite obviously aware of this because he's not stupid, but he has to create a reason to validate calling Toto scum here so that when he dies, Toto can be sort of cleared. The fact that no one called him out on this at the time including me is pretty bad. The other names he talks about are all town, save for Nos. He half-assedly tries to doubtcast Panther. Nosferatu's name is literally only tossed in here for funsies.
Sure enough, the conversation with the two begins to get sort of to the point where the bus may become unsustainable because it will attract attention that will put both of the scum players in peril.
In post 1563, Toto wrote: In post 1558, Dunnstral wrote:Toto is scum for sure in a scenario where Grapes is town. The way hey came in and said that on of us h ad to be scum looked really bad and looked like setting up two mislynches in a row or the vig shot
I was not the only one who didn't think about the roleblock. Without that the only logical conclusion is that you or Grapes is scum. Also not sure why'd you pick on me and not one of the most experienced players that should be more aware of a potential roleblock.
Dunn actually gives himself away here
In post 1564, Dunnstral wrote: In post 1563, Toto wrote:Also not sure why'd you pick on me and not one of the most experienced players that should be more aware of a potential roleblock.
Because you were setting grapes up as well
Who do you think is scum?
He's doing the thing.
He JUST said in a world where grapes is town, Toto is definitely scum, and then he says this.
This incriminates Toto in addition to Dunn because of how the interaction proceeds after this.
The rest of the posts on the page are SvS. They're not treating each other like mutual scumreads in a world where Town Toto should be pushing Dunn here, and Dunn's claim facade should have him hard bussing or distancing Toto.
In post 1607, Dunnstral wrote:Wait no I'm l-2
How are they scum and why are they worse than Zach/Panther?
Would you be willing to vote Panther?
After Dunn's interaction with Toto he suddenly stops mentioning him until Toto poses:
In post 1658, Toto wrote:Dunn, is it possible that you and Zach are both town and you mis-read him?
@Grapes: why is gerry scum only if Dunn is town?
Which is pretty redundant. When Dunn makes his return, he does not answer this either or interact further. All that happens is a bunch of shit about lynching gerryoat and everyone giving Dunn the benefit of the doubt, much to my disdain. Note that Panther posted a lot on this day and Dunn practically had him pocketed,(a la PocketPunt) which gave the scum team a bit more credibility because Panther is a strong town player and if you manage to mislead him there's not a whole lot of people who will oppose you. Proof is shown in that a lot of people(like Xk) got suckered and defended Dunn.
None of the townies really talk about Toto. He like slinks into the background while all the chaos is going on. He pops in at #1830 and #1835 to speculate on the setup but does not really comment on most of the other stuff like gerryoat being posed as a possibility. I think it was because he did not want to put himself more in the spotlight when Dunn already has center stage. Nos did the same thing. Dunn and Toto don't speak for the remainder of the day, which reads to me like the interaction they had at the start was simply fleshed out in daychat for that TOWN AESTHETIC but not followed up on strongly. You see, I've hydra'd with Dunn and he tends to put too much faith in his abilities and bobble all over the place.
In post 1959, Toto wrote: In post 1945, grapes wrote:@Toto
I doubt your reasoning now because I've broken out of my confbias tunnel on dunn for the time being. My "mistake" was being caught up in wanting to be right on the thing I stood for the most this game. And thinking that dunn was being a cheeky scumfuck. I thought I had him.
Yours was one of opportunity and zero paranoia.
Yeah.. very different.
In post 1528, Toto wrote:Backtracking, most likely scenario from my PoV is that we have a town killer and Dunn is scum.
In post 1524, Toto wrote:One thing seems almost sure based on the above: Dunn is scum.
VOTE: Dunn
It's pretty amazing that after this post here, Dunn still doesn't address Toto for it. You know that when someone scumreads Dunn he either scumreads them or makes a post about why they're stupid and .. makes himself look sort of stupid but sometimes not. Not here. He's silently letting the bus slide.
BUT WAIT! the dynamic duo re forms.
In post 2006, Toto wrote: In post 1998, Dunnstral wrote:...What?
So you're saying both me and grapes are scum, and that I'm a mafia pr, and that grapes is trying to get themself lynched to save me?
First of all, where does me being a mafia pr come from? Like, why in your scenario can't I be a goon
Second of all, you kind of just say I'm scum with grapes with literally no evidence
AND what you're saying doesn't match up. Where does grapes try to save me? Did you forget that they tunneled me all day long AND said they didn't receive my message? In addition to their lame push day 1
Please elaborate on how you reached these conclusions.
Grapes is acting scummy. The problem is scum grapes only makes sense if you are also scum. As Xk just pointed out, it doesn't make sense for scum!grapes to trade with town!dunn.
If you are scum, you are in a tricky situation on D2 start as you need to come up with someone to have visited. It is very likely you would end up lynched today. So trade here means you still lose 1 scum, but the other one gets some significant towncred. This makes even more sense if one of you is a mafia PR, because there is a chance you can trade the PR for a goon.
This by itself doesn't look likely but when combined with Grapes' comment to Naomi about you wanting to 'trade' it starts gain some momentum.
You are right about Grapes tunneling you. It does debilitate my case. I'm assuming bussing is a common practice here but I don't have enough examples to decide whether this particular instance could be bussing or grapes!town tunneling someone.
In post 1998, Dunnstral wrote:First: YOu need to explain the part where you say I'm scum with Xkfyu
SEcond: Explain the grapes/naomi part and how it's connected to me and Xkyfu
If You and Grapes are scum, then Xk would be in the top of my list of potential 3rd member of the team. He has been involved in the Grapes/Dunn discussion without taking any sides. He is tunneling Gerry and has suggested the Vig should shoot him (unconditionally), which seems like setting up a night-kill. Gerry is acting weird but I can see how, if town, he would be a prime target for scum.
Lastly, if you and Grapes are scum, then he made a comment about how me + naomi + grapes look towny because we were voting you before. It would have been a good opportunity for Scum to insert his partner in a town group. If this is true, since I'm town, that makes grapes/naomi one of his partners. But following the above most likely grapes.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Is Grapes scum?
If Grapes is scum, doesn't that make Dunn scum too?
Toto continues to bus here and naturally Dunn has to respond in capacity. BUT what Toto does is attempt to link Grapes and Dunn together with a little dash of Xk. Unlike the "one of Grapes/Dunn is scum", this reasoning does not seem sound because there's not really a town basis for it. There's no logical reason to assume as a town member that Grapes and Dunn could even be scum together. It's even pointed out by Xkfyu.. and .. .you.
In post 2011, Xkfyu wrote: In post 2006, Toto wrote:If You and Grapes are scum, then Xk would be in the top of my list of potential 3rd member of the team. He has been involved in the Grapes/Dunn discussion without taking any sides.
You can't be serious.
In post 2006, Toto wrote:He is tunneling Gerry and has suggested the Vig should shoot him (unconditionally), which seems like setting up a night-kill.
This is absolutely true though.
I don't think so.
For the 100th time no, it doesn't.
Since Dunn actually doesn't look too bad here, wheras earlier at day start he was way more likely to die, the bus is rescinded. The Dunn unvote is promptly followed by a grapes vote.
In post 2028, Toto wrote:I think I get now how town!dunn + scum!grapes could work.
UNVOTE: Dunn
Grapes is still my top scum read. I'm also ok with Zach today.
AND AFTER That, Dunn does not address Toto or attempt to push him, which would be a natural response if Dunn was town and the two weren't on a team. But because Dunn is less likely to die at this point and so the main focus has been shifted to other things, there's really no point in the two engaging each other as strongly anymore.
Dunn doesn't really appear in force after all this, and then only sometimes to push those who are antagonizing him.
The key here is that since you can't get a whole lot from Toto by himself, the Dunn activity is pretty telling. Nosferatu is a nonissue because he was about as absent this game as my father when he went to grab cigarettes 23 years ago. Dunno dude, the fact that most of the townies ALSO ignored Toto and a lot supported Dunn tended to shift the momentum of the game in a certain direction. Despite the fact that things fucked up for scum they still had a pretty good game and it is even evident today. I tried to show you here man, but if you find scum based on what people are not doing alone then I cannot change your mind or show you something to counter this because most of my games are filled with noise regardless of what alignment I am. I also did not look at Day 3 yet but I get the feeling here it's largely in vain.
