Mini Normal 1908 - In The Web (Game Over)

[Ircher]

VOTE: Titus

[Ircher]

YOLO
VOTE: Gamma

[Ircher]

because i don't like how you dumped three people into a cluster and picked out scum and town within them and i don't like the conclusions you reached on any of those 3 slots.

i don't like how after i call you out for junkposting, you immediately engage tryhard mode.

I don't like the way you framed this. Let's be honest -- was it really as bad as you are making it out to be?

[Ircher]

the three of them did interact quite a bit but that doesn't mean you have the right to say there's scum in that cluster.

that vote was shitty and you deserve to have my vote on you.

He didn't say there was scum in the cluster.

[Ircher]

Yoshi 45 town

Why does this make Yoshi town in any way?

Your points about him are valid, MortFeld.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I'm not letting Yoshi off the hook there, because I still feel like his response to the speedwagon was more likely to come from scum than town. I just think a Gamma scum flip strengthens my case against Yoshi.

At this point, I'm pretty sure this slot is town esp. after Transcend's tunnel.

[Ircher]

So, you've called out Transcend for his lacklustered posts. I am trying to determine if your interactions with Transcend are genuine. With Transcend, I don't think posts like he's made so far are out of the ordinary for him. I'm not sure if this is materializing into anything, yet.

why couldn't you have said that before hand? why did you need to know what my experience was?

I feel like if I told you, you might not have given me an answer and discarded it as nonsense. If you only played, say, 1 game with him, then you probably don't have an accurate sense of their play and would give less validity to how you're interacting with Transcend. You have 3 and thensome though.

Not sure why you would think I would avoid answering a question.

I still don't understand what me playing with him has to do with anything. I don't let meta affect my reads. I encourage others to do the same.

I encourage others to avoid the pitfall of failing to note that there can be a large variety of playsyles and perspectives.

[Ircher]

@Titus -- My own experiences.

Basically, Hikari reads as a player that people can easily jump on for absolutely nothing. Transcend made this obvious to me by misrepping his 98 that explained that he found Yoshi most likely to be scum out of Yoshi/Gamma/Mort. (In particular, Transcend tried to present as there must be scum in the group.) 105 and 112 help reinforce my townread as they appear to be genuine responses. 128 as town reevaluating despite the lack of significant reason for the vote change -- it doesn't read as scum that is backpedaling from a possibly controversial read. 140 by Delbird once again reinforces the easy-to-misread feel on Hikari.

I'm not saying Hikari is a bad player by any means -- he's probably better than me. But, I do recognize that he can easily be misunderstood and that's a large basis of my townread. Things could change in the future, but that's where I stand atm.

[Ircher]

Possibly, but I think it's a little too early for me to judge.

[Ircher]

I thought Vote Manipulation was banned in the Normal Queue? I guess not.

[Ircher]

I thought Vote Manipulation was banned in the Normal Queue? I guess not.

No but why are you supposing no mod error?

i was townreading 2f anyways

scum doublevoter is bastard right?

Who knows~ How do you think you should trust me~~

so he's basically IC yes?

If it was mod error, the mod would've corrected such by the time I made my post.

[Ircher]

bc fuck u

This isn't going to get people to listen to you.

[Ircher]

Official VC 1.0

The largest wagon is at L-3 (Gamma Emerald)

ChannelDelibird (1) [Hikari Link]
BigYoshiFan (2) [Tarkus, Gamma Emerald]
Gamma Emerald (4) [TwoFace, Ircher, MortFeld, Transcend]
TwoFace (1) [BigYoshiFan]
MortFeld (1) [Titus]


Not Voting (4) [MarioManiac4, NotTheRealPaul, ChannelDelibird, MMM]

Accurate to Post #60

With 13 Alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Mod Notes

No one is on V/LA
I'm going to do some hocus pocus and pagetop this when you guys post a bit more

Flavour

HTML stands for Hypertext Markup Language.
It's what makes webpages look like webpages.

Official VC 1.0

The largest wagon is at L-3 (Gamma Emerald)


BigYoshiFan (1) [Tarkus]
Gamma Emerald (4) [Hikari Link, MortFeld, MarioManiac4, Ircher]
TwoFace (1) [BigYoshiFan]
MortFeld (1) [Titus]
Titus (1) [MMM]
MarioManiac4 (1) [Gamma Emerald]
Hikari Link (2) [Transcend, ChannelDelibird]
Transcend (2) [TwoFace, TwoFace]


Not Voting (1) [NotTheRealPaul]

Accurate to Post #215

With 13 Alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Mod Notes

Phoneposting VC is cancerous.
And yes, TwoFace counting twice is not an error.

Flavour

Webpages are usually built along with JavaScript.
JavaScript is what allows pages to be dynamic and interactive

@Mod - Considering that my vote didn't move, how is Mort before me in wagon formation?

[Ircher]

VOTE: Gamma

For realsies.

[Ircher]

L-2 I believe.

(I was already on).

Really wished I didn't replace out that game... but site hiatus....

[Ircher]

Okay so TwoFace is a double voter for real
I'm going to tr him until I see reason to think otherwise.

@Gamma
This post is worth voting you for.

[Ircher]

because i come of naturally scummy

Yes, but you seem to do it purposefully which is productiv to town. Why? That's like asking to get ML'd and town are just as likely to vote you as scum.

[Ircher]

Okay so TwoFace is a double voter for real
I'm going to tr him until I see reason to think otherwise.

@Gamma
This post is worth voting you for.

For real? What's so scummy about it?

Tbf, in retrospect, it isn't as bad as I was originally thinking; just kinda felt the townread was a bit off....
Also:
UNVOTE:

[Ircher]

That said, could you guys please tell me why you refuse to read wall posts?

Mainly because I have ADD, second cause I'm on my phone most of the time and it's harder to read big walls of texts. It's easier to break them up into separate posts so I can skip the things I don't care about and focus on the stuff directed at me.

The other stuff is imo important as well so you can get reads on other players.

[Ircher]

Town have extremely legitimate reasons to worry about looking suspicious. People can and are misinterpreted and mislynched.

Town shouldn't care how people perceive them. Town shouldn't worry about being mislynched. Especially if you don't do scummy things. Every townie who's been mislynched has been guilty of doing things that they shouldn't have done. Lying, lurking,

contradictions

, whatever.

Be transparent, honest, and active and don't worry about how you are perceived. That's how I always play. Go look at all my games. I give zero fucks what people think of me. I tell the truth, I stay active, and I call things as I see it.

(See this is why I don't like reading wall posts. This post does nothing to help the game, it's a mafia theory discussion )

Contradicting one's self is a horrible thing to lynch people off of. And, the way you are perceived IS important--no one listens to the person they think is scum.

Scummy != scum. We all mistakes and we all do stupid stuff. Furthermore, town is more likely to make mistakes and more likely to own up to them.

[Ircher]

Ok, is really no one seeing what I see in Mortfield?

I don't know about you but I see town.

This. Although, I'm not sure that MMM is town at this point.

[Ircher]

Contradicting one's self is a horrible thing to lynch people off of. And, the way you are perceived IS important--no one listens to the person they think is scum.

Scummy != scum. We all mistakes and we all do stupid stuff. Furthermore, town is more likely to make mistakes and more likely to own up to them.

Nobody would lynch anyone off contradicting themselves but if they have a body of work full of scummy things (cough transcend cough) they should definitely be in the lynch pool.

And sorry I play with an I don't care how people perceive me attitude and I'm able to convince people to lynch who I want usually. If you play honest, you can't be scummy. When people try to do things to make themselves look town or do things (or in some cases don't do things) because they are afraid of how they will be perceived, that's scummy.

Take transcend's "I'm going to obv town " statement. There is literally no reason a townie should have to say something like that. His entire iso is basically LAMIST (look at me I'm so town). It's forced and unnatural (not to mention scummy) and because of that I can't trust him. I can't see town motivation for it.

Ugh, I guess we'll just disagree.

What are your thoughts on MMM currently? I'm kinda agreeing w/ Transcend's sentiment there.

[Ircher]

Who would you say is good at reading you? Certainly I wouldn't be in that category since I've never read you as scum.

Titus

And she isn't defending me or anything like she does as town

VOTE: Titus

Titus doesn't feel like town!her. For starters, her scunread on Transcend seems to clash greatly with the way she usually plays town: it shows a very closed perspective in contrast to Titus in Mini 1900 who kept a fairly open perspective and worked harder to get things done. She definitely didn't scumread Transcend there even though Transcend is playing pretty much the same here as well.

[Ircher]

Well, I'm townreading Transcend's slot now. Transcend wouldn't do that as scum, but it's unfortunate this had to happen for me to townread him.

Then doesn't replacing out become a trust tell?

[Ircher]

Sure was a dramatic exit.

Of what's been posted, this is the most important thing you have to say?

[Ircher]

@twoFace
The face that MMM vote was bad and MMM's progression so far this game.

[Ircher]

@Mort
Titus or MMM?

[Ircher]

Actually, I think I changed my mind on MMM because it was moreso a perceived lack of any progression in reads, but relooking through the ISO, I've realized I kinda "misattributed" (for lack of better word--more as to just didn't pay attn to post authors) a few posts and didn't realize those posts were his.

[Ircher]

Actually, I think I changed my mind on MMM because it was moreso a perceived lack of any progression in reads, but relooking through the ISO, I've realized I kinda "misattributed" (for lack of better word--more as to just didn't pay attn to post authors) a few posts and didn't realize those posts were his.

Changed your mind from a SR to less of one, or what?

Null.

[Ircher]

What @Grey?

[Ircher]

1. 702 by MMM really doesn't strike me the right way. I think 703 sums up my concerns for the most part, but I also think it's being stated after-the-fact.

2. 731 by Titus also feels off. But, I'm gonna try to avoid reading a lot into it.

3. 770 by Mario --> I disagree with your statement that I haven't done much this game. There's a lot of noise right now, so I haven't done much recently, but otherwise, I've done quite some.

Yeah, so a lot of noise and not a lot that I feel the need to comment on in the last 6 pages. I'm still convinced that Titus's slot has the best chances of flipping scum at the moment.

I mean, town!Titus for starters tend to be actively involved in the game. In this game, Titus just seems to be skirting by on as little as she can.

[Ircher]

someone tell me when something interesting happens....

Like Titus's replacement getting lynched.....

[Ircher]

Do you have anything to add for my case against Titus?

Not that I haven't already said.

[Ircher]

Only way I stay is if we PL fitz.

Oh, so you're cool lynching that slot anyway? XD

only cause he is a toxic player and last game with me his play basically was the equivalent of game throwing. I can't remember what my read of the titus slot is anymore (though your push on her makes me think town) I absolutely refuse to play another game with fitz ever again so the options are

1. we use WOTC to reject him as a replacement
2. I replace out
3. we lynch him asap so i don't have to interact or even read his posts (which are usually more useless than helpful because his preference to wall post and rarely directly intracts with people)

I will say that him in this game will ultimately make this game 10x more toxic than it already is.

I'm fine w/ option C if Fitz replaced Titus.

[Ircher]

This isn't town!Titus.

[Ircher]

1. 702 by MMM really doesn't strike me the right way. I think 703 sums up my concerns for the most part, but I also think it's being stated after-the-fact.

2. 731 by Titus also feels off. But, I'm gonna try to avoid reading a lot into it.

3. 770 by Mario --> I disagree with your statement that I haven't done much this game. There's a lot of noise right now, so I haven't done much recently, but otherwise, I've done quite some.

Yeah, so a lot of noise and not a lot that I feel the need to comment on in the last 6 pages. I'm still convinced that Titus's slot has the best chances of flipping scum at the moment.

I mean, town!Titus for starters tend to be actively involved in the game. In this game, Titus just seems to be skirting by on as little as she can.

Who would you say is good at reading you? Certainly I wouldn't be in that category since I've never read you as scum.

Titus

And she isn't defending me or anything like she does as town

VOTE: Titus

Titus doesn't feel like town!her. For starters, her scunread on Transcend seems to clash greatly with the way she usually plays town: it shows a very closed perspective in contrast to Titus in Mini 1900 who kept a fairly open perspective and worked harder to get things done. She definitely didn't scumread Transcend there even though Transcend is playing pretty much the same here as well.

[Ircher]

2 people have hiraki as their top town read. seriously wtf am I missing about hiraki?

The fact that one-size-doesn't-fit-all.

[Ircher]

Sure, but he's given us the options of forcing a replace or lynching fitz, and said he'll L1 him tonight. Sounds like a PL to me? I get that there are people on the wagon who scumread titus, but it seems like this fitz lynch is looming for the wrong reason

4/5 people currently scumread the slot for non-personal/playstyle reasons. How is that a policy lynch?

[Ircher]

I post long walls with links to comments typically only when I am catching up from several pages (ex. after weekends or when replacing in)

You make these kinds of posts more often than that. Mainly cause you avoid posting daily. The problem with these posts is it is impossible to read and respond to on a mobile device cause you have to keep going back and forth in your browser. You can't easily quote specific information without losing the hyperlink to the post number and by the time you reach the bottom you've gone back and forth 30 times. Hell its difficult to respond on a computer also for essentially the same reasons.

Im willing to bet most people would prefer you quote a post, say what you have an issue with, and move to the next post. Plus not everything you include in these posts need to be included. You throw things in that have either been answered already or are now irrelevant.

I can understand doing it after catching up from a replacement. But doing it after a weekend or any other time after the catch-up is completely unnecessary. You actually hurt town by not allowing them to directly interact with you. Which is something you don't really do unless it's a back and forth argument.

An alternate solution is to do the post linking but tryy to provide an objective summary of the post.

[Ircher]

2 people have hiraki as their top town read. seriously wtf am I missing about hiraki?

The fact that one-size-doesn't-fit-all.

Huh?

Eh, nevermind. I think I saw why you disagreed w/ the townread and that's different from what I originally thought.

[Ircher]

Titus Evaluation

1. 38 --> Votes Mort cuz she doesn't like his responses -->

I disagree greatly with the assessment. His reads look fine imo and show a town thought process. It seems more like Titus is simpl trying to find something she can attack herself -- how ironic!

2. 171 --> Elaborates on Mort read; mainly states that Mort's stuff lacks depth and asks too many questions -->

Honestly, I still feel like Titus is trying to find things to attack; Titus made the original read about 1 1/2 pages into the game. So, w/ RVS et cetera, there isn't going to be a lot to analyze so questions won't have a lot of depth. While the # of Qs Mort asked was kinda high, I don't necessarily see it as scum-motivated.

3. 177 --> Admits reasoning was bad cuz trying to get things going -->

And this feels like Titus is distancing from her read. Had she said this way earlier, I might buy it, but this seems to be Titus thinking "Oops! I better try to play that read off as non-serious". I don't buy it at all.

4. 178 --> Mort/Yoshi pinged her as partners -->

This early in the game? I mean, 68 kinda pinged me as Titus / MMM being possible partners, but by no means did I see a solid association between the two. Unless Titus elaborates later, this association read feels superficial and an attempt to appear to have reads while simultaneously casting shade at another player.

5. 182 --> Transcend is weak town -->

I would like to note that this happened after Transcend said that town!Titus pretty much always defends him at this point in the game. Titus is obviously trying to keep her options open.

6. 387 --> Asks how Tarkus can see things as her on Mort despite not understanding Titus's posts -->

Different perspective perhaps? Feels like another shade-throwing attempt. Not to mention that Titus hasn't been too specific in her read, so it's pretty difficult to understand when one quotes zero evidence.

7. 408 --> Says town!Trans actually pressures people -->

What suggests he isn't? Also, I honestly don't see the difference between Transcend here and Transcend in 1900. Again, I think this is scum Titus keeping her options open.

So that is my not meta-based case on Titus.

[Ircher]

Titus Evaluation

1. 38 --> Votes Mort cuz she doesn't like his responses -->

I disagree greatly with the assessment. His reads look fine imo and show a town thought process. It seems more like Titus is simpl trying to find something she can attack herself -- how ironic!

2. 171 --> Elaborates on Mort read; mainly states that Mort's stuff lacks depth and asks too many questions -->

Honestly, I still feel like Titus is trying to find things to attack; Titus made the original read about 1 1/2 pages into the game. So, w/ RVS et cetera, there isn't going to be a lot to analyze so questions won't have a lot of depth. While the # of Qs Mort asked was kinda high, I don't necessarily see it as scum-motivated.

3. 177 --> Admits reasoning was bad cuz trying to get things going -->

And this feels like Titus is distancing from her read. Had she said this way earlier, I might buy it, but this seems to be Titus thinking "Oops! I better try to play that read off as non-serious". I don't buy it at all.

4. 178 --> Mort/Yoshi pinged her as partners -->

This early in the game? I mean, 68 kinda pinged me as Titus / MMM being possible partners, but by no means did I see a solid association between the two. Unless Titus elaborates later, this association read feels superficial and an attempt to appear to have reads while simultaneously casting shade at another player.

5. 182 --> Transcend is weak town -->

I would like to note that this happened after Transcend said that town!Titus pretty much always defends him at this point in the game. Titus is obviously trying to keep her options open.

6. 387 --> Asks how Tarkus can see things as her on Mort despite not understanding Titus's posts -->

Different perspective perhaps? Feels like another shade-throwing attempt. Not to mention that Titus hasn't been too specific in her read, so it's pretty difficult to understand when one quotes zero evidence.

7. 408 --> Says town!Trans actually pressures people -->

What suggests he isn't? Also, I honestly don't see the difference between Transcend here and Transcend in 1900. Again, I think this is scum Titus keeping her options open.

So that is my not meta-based case on Titus.

Quoting this for new page.

[Ircher]

Fitz claim

Watcher

Well done town

Gut says this has a 90% chance of being false.

[Ircher]

@TwoFace, Why not?
UNVOTE: fitz

He claimed FULL watcher. You do realize how op watcher is in general for town?

It's far more likely to be in scum hands than town.

[Ircher]

1059 contains a misrep

Huh?

[Ircher]

Titus Evaluation

1. 38 --> Votes Mort cuz she doesn't like his responses -->

I disagree greatly with the assessment. His reads look fine imo and show a town thought process. It seems more like Titus is simpl trying to find something she can attack herself -- how ironic!

2. 171 --> Elaborates on Mort read; mainly states that Mort's stuff lacks depth and asks too many questions -->

Honestly, I still feel like Titus is trying to find things to attack; Titus made the original read about 1 1/2 pages into the game. So, w/ RVS et cetera, there isn't going to be a lot to analyze so questions won't have a lot of depth. While the # of Qs Mort asked was kinda high, I don't necessarily see it as scum-motivated.

3. 177 --> Admits reasoning was bad cuz trying to get things going -->

And this feels like Titus is distancing from her read. Had she said this way earlier, I might buy it, but this seems to be Titus thinking "Oops! I better try to play that read off as non-serious". I don't buy it at all.

4. 178 --> Mort/Yoshi pinged her as partners -->

This early in the game? I mean, 68 kinda pinged me as Titus / MMM being possible partners, but by no means did I see a solid association between the two. Unless Titus elaborates later, this association read feels superficial and an attempt to appear to have reads while simultaneously casting shade at another player.

5. 182 --> Transcend is weak town -->

I would like to note that this happened after Transcend said that town!Titus pretty much always defends him at this point in the game. Titus is obviously trying to keep her options open.

6. 387 --> Asks how Tarkus can see things as her on Mort despite not understanding Titus's posts -->

Different perspective perhaps? Feels like another shade-throwing attempt. Not to mention that Titus hasn't been too specific in her read, so it's pretty difficult to understand when one quotes zero evidence.

7. 408 --> Says town!Trans actually pressures people -->

What suggests he isn't? Also, I honestly don't see the difference between Transcend here and Transcend in 1900. Again, I think this is scum Titus keeping her options open.

So that is my not meta-based case on Titus.

This post is scummy IMO

How?

[Ircher]

I could get behind a Wheme lynch.
VOTE: Wheme

Since Fitz obviously isn't getting lynched, fakeclaiming or not.

[Ircher]

I strongly prefer Wheme over Yoshi and Gamma. I also strongly prefer Fitz over Wheme.

[Ircher]

What is the case on Penguin?

[Ircher]

Actually, I'm fine w/ either Penguin or Wheme.
VOTE: Penguin

[Ircher]

People I'd rather not lynch: Myself, Hikari, Yoshi, Mort, TwoFace.

[Ircher]

Mario has been town enough I guess for Day 1 to also exclude him from my lynchpool.

[Ircher]

4/5 agreed, Ircher.

Which do you disagree with? Myself?

[Ircher]

You and Hikari are dropping. I don't understand his rush.

Today I was busy and this game has mostly been kinda boring tbqh.

[Ircher]

It's called compromise.

Also, when my reads aren't very strong, I am generally okay w/ lynching anyone who isn't someone I'm against lynching. Boring games contribute to those not-so-strong reads.

[Ircher]

Official Vote Count

Gamma Emerald

(4): MortFeld, Tarkus, PenguinPower, Hikari Link

WhemeStar

(3): TwoFace, TwoFace, Ircher

BigYoshiFan

(1): MMM

Ircher

(1): MarioManiac4

Not Voting

(5): havingfitz, BigYoshiFan, RayFrost, WhemeStar, Gamma Emerald

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Gamma Emerald is the leading wagon and is as L-3

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-05-16 18:21:03)

Seriously though, guys, I feel like this game is stagnating and getting pretty damn circular. I think we desperately need some flips to start processing information and do some more legitimate scumhunting.

How many people can get behind a WhemeStar wagon? If not, what alternatives do people propose? Gamma?

This 100% and no idea why the vc is in my post.

[Ircher]

I SR Ircher
Ircher sees I SR him.
Ircher sees wagon on me
Ircher hops on the wagon for no reason

Hmmmmmmmmm

The vote wasn't OMGUS. And OMGUS is a "scumtell" anyway that works like 1% of the time.

[Ircher]

Ircher - It took 22 posts before I saw one with what I would consider any real game related effort and that was a vote on my slot for what appears to be meta reasons associated with 2 players (Titus and Transcend). So meta squared. Ugh. That seems worse than pre-flip associations. Then when people point out Titus read is based on meta, he produces a completely different set of reasons for suspecting Titus. All, but pt #5, which were not mentioned when he voted Titus. So looking for reasons after the fact to help justify read. Also not sure what his issue is with my role.

Umm.... I honestly don't see this as a fair assessment of what I've done this game.

[Ircher]

@TwoFace, Why not?
UNVOTE: fitz

He claimed FULL watcher. You do realize how op watcher is in general for town?

It's far more likely to be in scum hands than town.

What are you saying.. "ok watcher"? And town watcher is a fairly common role. I don't think I've ever seen a scum one.

Town watcher is by no means a common role. It's not a rare role, but scum watcher is more likely.

[Ircher]

What are you saying.. "ok watcher"? And town watcher is a fairly common role. I don't think I've ever seen a scum one.

because I love doing research.

From mafia games 1400 to 1897

Full watcher - 9 times
Limited Watcher by some sort of modifier - 7 times
Mafia Watcher - 4 times
Mafia Joat with 1 watcher ability - 1 time

I didn't go previous to 1400 as I felt it was unnecessary.

Ok, I guess 'm wrong on scum/town watcher. But that's still not common.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

This actually makes me slightly tr Wheme -- I've seen quite a few self-votes but practically all of them have been town w/ the exception of self-hammers.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

Oh I love when scum give up. Thanks.

No problem bud, how much will you yell at me when I flip town tho

If I flip town*

This also reads as town based on my experience w/ this stuff.

[Ircher]

like
his selfvote is bad af as scum and I can't see scum doing it ever
His selfvote was evidently not a scumclaim now and although it is bad I don't think it was scum at all
(im going to feel so stupid if wheme flips scum lmao)

Scum self voting is not uncommon. More often it's as a hammer to avoid discussion but I've seen non hammer scum self votes. For the reaction you're having.

Quote me some non-hammer examples.

[Ircher]

Soooo Ircher why you fine with voting me, and then have me as a slight toweread???

Please explain good sir.

I said that before I read those posts.

My reads have changed, and I no longer feel as confident in lynching you right now.

[Ircher]

No, it becomes NAI when you do it as scum as well.

Pedt: I wonder as well....

[Ircher]

Wheme, if I'm understanding correctly, you are handicapping your town game so that you aren't obvious as scum. I feel like you would be better served elevating your scum game. Better to be an asset to your team than to be a hindrance.

Half of the players on this site are doing this. ive been saying this since i got here. Players don't know how to play as scum so they dumb down their town play so they can skate by as scum.

It's why people get mad at me for pushing scummy people and being wrong. They should be mad at the people playing bad but whatever.

Yeah, it is an issue when players intentionally do it. But I always assume good faith.

[Ircher]

That was by no means clear.
Pedit: Yes, there was.

[Ircher]

GUYS STOP PENGUIN IS TOWN I KNOW IT UNVOTE

?

Explain?

Uh just a gut feeling. I think if you were scum you would of subtly hopped on my wagon

"After a quick Iso of Wheme, it is really trash and blah blah blah... couple reasons. then a vote on me. "

You really need to stop doing this. You will do it as scum and you will never be able to do it as town again.

But if I do it as town every game, people will TR me for doing it when I'm scum

lol

....

[Ircher]

hence the "lol" right after.

There was no lol

There was an "lol" in the post after.

Are you seriously going to argue about boundaries?

[Ircher]

VOTE: MMM

maybe.

Nah, I think Penguin is a better lynch.

[Ircher]

hence the "lol" right after.

There was no lol

There was an "lol" in the post after.

Are you seriously going to argue about boundaries?

How am I arguing?

Nvm, I totally misread the quote pyramid's bbcode.

[Ircher]

We are lynching PP because despite how bad Wheme is, I can see both his and Transcend's play as coming from town, ever so slightly.

[Ircher]

(Or we can policy-lynch RayFrost on the basis of Lynch-all-Lurkers)

[Ircher]

We are lynching PP because despite how bad Wheme is, I can see both his and Transcend's play as coming from town, ever so slightly.

Ok but why

PoE. I have slight townreads on about 80% of the players in this game. PP isn't one of them.

[Ircher]

My lynch pool current is {Penguin, Tarkus, Rayfrost} for PoE related reasons.

[Ircher]

My lynch pool current is {Penguin, Tarkus, Rayfrost} for PoE related reasons.

Could you explain...this is a new revelation for you. I mean, putting reads to words and all.

What is there to explain? Also, Fitz is also in jy lynch pool, but unlikely to be kynched.

[Ircher]

You seem eager to end the day

gIs by no means indicative of scum.

[Ircher]

I'm only lynching in my lynchpool unless someone gives me a solid case.

[Ircher]

I might vote Wheme if deadline looms, but that's a huge maybe.

[Ircher]

3 Votes for Ray (no IDGAF because lynching lurkers Day 1 seems like a bad policy)

I disagree with tht greatly -- lurkers ar good lynches if there are no better alternatives in my opinin.

[Ircher]

3 Votes for Ray (no IDGAF because lynching lurkers Day 1 seems like a bad policy)

I disagree with tht greatly -- lurkers ar good lynches if there are no better alternatives in my opinin.

You're Mafia??

What's that have to do w/ nme being mafia?

I don't know who taught you that lynching lurkers D1 was bad because that is how lurkers slip through to LyLo.

[Ircher]

No idea what you are asking @Mort.

No, I'm not mafia.

Pedit: That's true.

[Ircher]

why are you blaming this gamestate on me
I have posted 78 times; that's more than once every page, and I have never got a prod ever. This gamestate is absolutely not down to "lack of content" or whatever; Gamma's been fine, I'm actually solidly townreading Tarkus based on understanding pretty much everything he says about his reads and POV, and it's not Ircher's fault that he is a scumlord.
I have been trying to have interactions. I've been wanting to drop the Wheme wagon- because it's probably on town. I've wanted to do the same with PP and I want to lynch Ircher. The thing is, when I try to get more actions than this (and I stand by that what I am doing is totally fine), I get something like "well stfu and let me catch up" or "shame on you" and I'm afraid that just immediately kills my motivation to interact MORE with people. Anyway, my activity is fine and I really don't want to have to deal with being shamed for it. Thanks.
-----

This town would rather lynch 1559 than 1573, 1454, and 1392 (which ends up with "Oh wait lol we have to lynch PP", and I guess I can't stop that. But I feel like Ircher's ISO speaks for itself. His case on Titus didn't read like analysing whether things meant town/scum, just whether things could be considered scummy. He apparently changed all of his reads from "willing to compromise" to "townreading 80% in the game, must lynch PP." and coming in to try and tell Mort that lurkers should always be lynched d1 on this site --- what?

VOTE: Ircher

With Mort's vote, I believe that is on the same level as Gamma.

I never stated that lurkers should always be lynched D1. I said that lurkers are not bad D1 lynchesgiven no better alternatives.

[Ircher]

3 Votes for Ray (no IDGAF because lynching lurkers Day 1 seems like a bad policy)

I disagree with tht greatly -- lurkers ar good lynches if there are no better alternatives in my opinin.

You're Mafia??

What's that have to do w/ nme being mafia?

I don't know who taught you that lynching lurkers D1 was bad because that is how lurkers slip through to LyLo.

I didn't say why I thought he was scum because of that post, but he assumed. I don't think that makes him scum. But I can't think of too many scenarios where a person's explicit and truthful opinion on theory is AI and I feel like that's not the right assumption? The issue for me was not that Ircher was saying that lynching lurkers is sometimes viable, nor even that he was potentially setting up for a Ray push.

3 Votes for Ray (no IDGAF because lynching lurkers Day 1 seems like a bad policy)

I disagree with tht greatly -- lurkers ar good lynches if there are no better alternatives in my opinin.

My lynch pool current is {Penguin, Tarkus, Rayfrost} for PoE related reasons.

Ircher's picture of the game is very weird. Actually I'd say it's kind of similar to MM4's. Basically there is a very large group of people in a town pool and the lynch pool is those who are not in the town pool.

But the latter group is pretty arbitrary if that is the criterion. I think in order to even consider lynching Rayfrost you'd need to explain why Greyposting was not town because Grey posted a lot of content. And there are some people missing (me, Wheme, GE, MMM(?)) where the onus is on Ircher to explain why.

So you have Ircher's lynch pool in which neither Wheme nor GE are included, and then this big post by Hikari where they go 'Ok so consensus says Wheme and GE are the lynches now vote one of them' and all Ircher says is 'well hey, lynching lurkers isn't all bad!'

I don't think he's on my team this game.

Originally I thought 1592 was very bad. But the first part is not bad at all. And the second only has one minor issue which I don't even blame town!MM4 for.

1) Your first point still fails to parse. You randomly asked me if I'm mafia and quoted that post. What about my assumption does not make sense? If you scumread me for different reasons, why would you quote that post in particular? And this site has a general meta of scumreading people who present viewpoints that are contrary to what you believe even if it isn't alignment-indicative.

2) I townread you and Gamma for early game reasons. I already expressed the reason as to why I would prefer not lynching Wheme. You may have a point about MMM, but I remember having a weak soft townread on them. And, I'm pretty sure RayFrost didn't replace Grey, and I have yet to see anything from Frost that makes me lean town there.

3) Again, I disagree with both a Gamma and a Wheme lynch rn and townread the majority of the active players. Why should I switch to a wagon that I do not agree with when there is still a decent amount of tme left in Day 1?

[Ircher]

it only took one townread for him to go from, "when my reads aren't very strong, I am generally okay w/ lynching anyone who isn't someone I'm against lynching." to basically declaring he cannot see pp as town whatsoever?

I keep seeing this assertion that I stated Penguin couldn't be town yet I don't think I ever expressed such sentiment.

[Ircher]

It's called compromise.

Also, when my reads aren't very strong, I am generally okay w/ lynching anyone who isn't someone I'm against lynching. Boring games contribute to those not-so-strong reads.

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

This actually makes me slightly tr Wheme -- I've seen quite a few self-votes but practically all of them have been town w/ the exception of self-hammers.

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

Oh I love when scum give up. Thanks.

No problem bud, how much will you yell at me when I flip town tho

If I flip town*

This also reads as town based on my experience w/ this stuff.

like
his selfvote is bad af as scum and I can't see scum doing it ever
His selfvote was evidently not a scumclaim now and although it is bad I don't think it was scum at all
(im going to feel so stupid if wheme flips scum lmao)

Scum self voting is not uncommon. More often it's as a hammer to avoid discussion but I've seen non hammer scum self votes. For the reaction you're having.

Quote me some non-hammer examples.

Soooo Ircher why you fine with voting me, and then have me as a slight toweread???

Please explain good sir.

I said that before I read those posts.

My reads have changed, and I no longer feel as confident in lynching you right now.

No, it becomes NAI when you do it as scum as well.

Pedt: I wonder as well....

Wheme, if I'm understanding correctly, you are handicapping your town game so that you aren't obvious as scum. I feel like you would be better served elevating your scum game. Better to be an asset to your team than to be a hindrance.

Half of the players on this site are doing this. ive been saying this since i got here. Players don't know how to play as scum so they dumb down their town play so they can skate by as scum.

It's why people get mad at me for pushing scummy people and being wrong. They should be mad at the people playing bad but whatever.

Yeah, it is an issue when players intentionally do it. But I always assume good faith.

We are lynching PP because despite how bad Wheme is, I can see both his and Transcend's play as coming from town, ever so slightly.

all of the read-related posting between Ircher's "unsure" post and "PP is basically modconfirmed scum" post is that he got a townread on wheme

Ok, now I remember. The assertion was on the basis that Wheme and PP seemed the only viable lynches at the time.

Pedit: I never stated that. That said, I have a lot of weak to moderate and a few strong townreads right now. Honestly though, I disagree with the way that you are representing my post and failing to consider surrounding context.

[Ircher]

ok ok
so
Ircher can ever so slightly see Wheme being town, right?
So this implies he has a scumread on Wheme. But he thinks Wheme could technically be town.
PP does not have this benefit. Therefore, we can assume that he does not think PP could technically be town.
Therefore, Ircher has a heavy scumread on PenguinPower.

No, I had a null read to begin with Wheme. I saw some things that tipped me towards a weak townlean there. I also had a fairly null stance on Penguin as well. I had yet to see anything that tipped me towards a townread there. That doesn't mean I had a heavy scumread on Penguin. Please stop misconstruing my stances.

[Ircher]

I got to the bit where he heavily scum reads him.
What's so bad about it?

two pages ago he was incredibly uncertain
now he not only has a strong scumread on PenguinPower, but he has also expressed a rather heavy scumread on WhemeStar, when his opinion of Wheme only improved

so its like
page x:
i am uncertain about my reads here

*wheme gets townier*
page y (y=x+2):
wheme is almost certainly scum
PP is certainly scum

it makes no sense and it feels like he's jumping around here, trying to get on wagons with growing momentum- there's no continuity behind his reads

The only person I stated a heavy scumread on was Fitz/Titus.

[Ircher]

what does context have to do with not being able to see a player as town?

Again, you are misrepresenting my reads. Just because I don't townread a player doesn't mean I scumread them.

I have a high number of townreads though, so that makes my nullreads to be the most likely ones to be scum from my PoV via PoE. That doesn't necessarily mean I heavily scumread them.

[Ircher]

RayFrost's posting currently is making me feel better about the slot.

[Ircher]

RayFrost's posting currently is making me feel better about the slot.

RayFrost made you more confident Gamma is town?

No, i meant better about RayFrist's slot.

[Ircher]

I'll give "actual thoughts" later. Maybe tommorrow evening.

[Ircher]

YOLO
VOTE: Gamma

The YOLO was unnecessary and feels like a "don't judge me" safeguard.

Okay so TwoFace is a double voter for real
I'm going to tr him until I see reason to think otherwise.

@Gamma
This post is worth voting you for.

Okay so TwoFace is a double voter for real
I'm going to tr him until I see reason to think otherwise.

@Gamma
This post is worth voting you for.

For real? What's so scummy about it?

Tbf, in retrospect, it isn't as bad as I was originally thinking; just kinda felt the townread was a bit off....
Also:
UNVOTE:

I feel like this is indirectly shading TF

someone tell me when something interesting happens....

Like Titus's replacement getting lynched.....

Seems to not care about actually evaluating the Titusslot beyond the point where he scumread her.

@TwoFace, Why not?
UNVOTE: fitz

He claimed FULL watcher. You do realize how op watcher is in general for town?

It's far more likely to be in scum hands than town.

Watcher is about equivalent to Cop in power, and I feel Ircher should know this.

Watcher is easier to get a guilty with than Cop. Thus, it's slightly stronger.

[Ircher]

Tarkus, TwoFace, and havingfitz are in need of a prod.
This game is dead. Let's lynch Ircher.

Go right ahead.

[Ircher]

[VOTE: Penguin

Currently my strongest scmread.

[Ircher]

Disclaimer before MM4 accuses me of changing reads on a whim: I read through some of the ISIOs while compiling this.

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
Ircher  (100%) - Role PM
Kelvin Smith (99%) - I've liked him throughout the game, and his Cop claim on scum cements his town status.

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)
Gamma (+41%) - 107 and 115 were the basis of my early townread here. Mainly because of the fact that his reads were consistent, and he responded pretty well to pressure. My "serious" vote early in the game on Gamma was mainly because of 235, but I later realized that post is really null-indicative. (I was being silly I guess...) I like his response to Mort in 259. The somewhat-a-contradiction between 876 and 893 pings a little bit, but in the end, it doesn't affect my read that much. Not sure why he claimed in 1608.... I guess he's just frustrated. (Not sure what to make of that....) Just the way he posts makes it hard to get a strong read here.

MMM (+38%) - 63 really has the wrong feel. 379 actually has good vibes to it. 610 makes his push on Transcend look really bad.... 699--why would you park your vote on someone who you are quite obviously biased against because of the insults he sent yor way? I honestly can't see how such is town-motivated. (Caveat: Anti-town, not scummy.) 1254 has a good, laidback feel to it. 1329 was a decent lynch pool at the time of the post (though I disagree with lynching Yoshi at the time.) 1658 is a good post (and not just because I'm biased.) This one is a mixed bag -- seems to alternate between good and bad posting....

Tarkus (+34%) - 356 feels like a good post. 953 is bad but not really alignment indicative. (The Fitz wagon was not a Policy Lynch.) A few good posts, not too many bad posts, but honestly, I kinda want more from this slot.

Paul/Grey/RayFrost (+31%) - Don't like 554; 5 pages in is more than enough to make a catch up post if you're that many pages behind. 562 is just weird. 670 really catches my attention as Grey tries to push a derp thing from Paul as a townslip. Posts like 594 are just annoying fluff. 615 would've been fine if there wasn't the "probably" at the end. 645 is a bad joke. 651 is fine I guess. Lots of Ray's early posts are excuses as to why he cannot catch up, but I'm not questioning their legitimacy right now. Disagree with 716, but it's probably the first town post I've really seen from the slot. Kinda like Ray's posting though...

Mario (-31%) - Kinda weird not to have scumreads by (post]288[/post]. The lack of any kind of scumreads by 692 is a bit alarming, but understandable -- most of the players in the game feel town. 922 is a good post. 1079 is kinda meh. 1153 is false as there was quite a few counters to Wheme. 1162 feels too dismissive. Alas, 1209 being true seems to be a thing on this site. 1592: "I have posted 78 times" -- Maybe 15 of them are actually useful? Number of posts doesn't matter quite as much as what's in it. Not sure what to make of the "It's not Ircher's fault that he is a Scumlord" comment. 1630 is a misrep of my stances. Nothing in 1649 show me stating that Penguin was mod!conf scum. It showed that I thought Penguin was the best lynch out of the lynches I considered viable. 1651 is biased misinterpretation. Not sure what made you think 1655 but to clarify, what you ruled out is more as to what I meant. (Perhaps my statement was ambiguous to some extent, but your flat out refusal to accept my explanation is obnoxious.) 1683 and 1690 are decent posts. 2010 is a good post (as well as the earlier vote.)

Delbird/Penguin (-42%) - 140 really doesn't read right. What's to say town cannot be confident? Like, I feel you need more than just that. Don't like 1293 and 1297's assertion that Mort's lack of analysis is alignment indicative. It COULD BE indicative, but is it indicative or is Penguin just trying to find a reason to scumread Mort? 1390 feels like he was trying to warp the argument to something else. Don't get what Penguin is suggesting in 1466 tbh.

I would like to note for Mario's sake that I have no where near a strong scumread on this slot.

That said, I do have a scumread here currently.

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)

Spoiler: How to read this readslist

Players are placed in different sections based on my confidence in the read expressed as a percentage. A positive percentage indicates that I leans towards town on a player whereas a negative percentage indicates I lean towards scum on a player. Please note that the Null an Neutral sections contain both townreads and scumreads and you must look a the sign of the percentage in parenthesis to determine which way I lean.

Confidence ratings are rough estimates and are relative to one another. In addition, they tend to be scored on a logarithmic scale versus a linear scale; in other words, the difference between 0% and 30% tends to be greater than ther difference between 30% and 60%.

Also, this readslist is from a template I have, and it is from my perspective. There is no reason to scumread me just for including myself in my readslists as it is a stylistic issue versus an alignment indicative issue.

I didn't get to everyone, but most of the people not on here are prob. townleans.

[Ircher]

Sorry I cannot read this with the color, it's very bright and it hurts my eyes.

Disclaimer before MM4 accuses me of changing reads on a whim: I read through some of the ISIOs while compiling this.

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
Ircher (100%) - Role PM
Kelvin Smith (99%) - I've liked him throughout the game, and his Cop claim on scum cements his town status.

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)
Gamma (+41%) - 107 and 115 were the basis of my early townread here. Mainly because of the fact that his reads were consistent, and he responded pretty well to pressure. My "serious" vote early in the game on Gamma was mainly because of 235, but I later realized that post is really null-indicative. (I was being silly I guess...) I like his response to Mort in 259. The somewhat-a-contradiction between 876 and 893 pings a little bit, but in the end, it doesn't affect my read that much. Not sure why he claimed in 1608.... I guess he's just frustrated. (Not sure what to make of that....) Just the way he posts makes it hard to get a strong read here.

MMM (+38%) - 63 really has the wrong feel. 379 actually has good vibes to it. 610 makes his push on Transcend look really bad.... 699--why would you park your vote on someone who you are quite obviously biased against because of the insults he sent yor way? I honestly can't see how such is town-motivated. (Caveat: Anti-town, not scummy.) 1254 has a good, laidback feel to it. 1329 was a decent lynch pool at the time of the post (though I disagree with lynching Yoshi at the time.) 1658 is a good post (and not just because I'm biased.) This one is a mixed bag -- seems to alternate between good and bad posting....

Tarkus (+34%) - 356 feels like a good post. 953 is bad but not really alignment indicative. (The Fitz wagon was not a Policy Lynch.) A few good posts, not too many bad posts, but honestly, I kinda want more from this slot.

Paul/Grey/RayFrost (+31%) - Don't like 554; 5 pages in is more than enough to make a catch up post if you're that many pages behind. 562 is just weird. 670 really catches my attention as Grey tries to push a derp thing from Paul as a townslip. Posts like 594 are just annoying fluff. 615 would've been fine if there wasn't the "probably" at the end. 645 is a bad joke. 651 is fine I guess. Lots of Ray's early posts are excuses as to why he cannot catch up, but I'm not questioning their legitimacy right now. Disagree with 716, but it's probably the first town post I've really seen from the slot. Kinda like Ray's posting though...

Mario (-31%) - Kinda weird not to have scumreads by (post]288[/post]. The lack of any kind of scumreads by 692 is a bit alarming, but understandable -- most of the players in the game feel town. 922 is a good post. 1079 is kinda meh. 1153 is false as there was quite a few counters to Wheme. 1162 feels too dismissive. Alas, 1209 being true seems to be a thing on this site. 1592: "I have posted 78 times" -- Maybe 15 of them are actually useful? Number of posts doesn't matter quite as much as what's in it. Not sure what to make of the "It's not Ircher's fault that he is a Scumlord" comment. 1630 is a misrep of my stances. Nothing in 1649 show me stating that Penguin was mod!conf scum. It showed that I thought Penguin was the best lynch out of the lynches I considered viable. 1651 is biased misinterpretation. Not sure what made you think 1655 but to clarify, what you ruled out is more as to what I meant. (Perhaps my statement was ambiguous to some extent, but your flat out refusal to accept my explanation is obnoxious.) 1683 and 1690 are decent posts. 2010 is a good post (as well as the earlier vote.)

Delbird/Penguin (-42%) - 140 really doesn't read right. What's to say town cannot be confident? Like, I feel you need more than just that. Don't like 1293 and 1297's assertion that Mort's lack of analysis is alignment indicative. It COULD BE indicative, but is it indicative or is Penguin just trying to find a reason to scumread Mort? 1390 feels like he was trying to warp the argument to something else. Don't get what Penguin is suggesting in 1466 tbh.

I would like to note for Mario's sake that I have no where near a strong scumread on this slot.

That said, I do have a scumread here currently.

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)

Spoiler: How to read this readslist

Players are placed in different sections based on my confidence in the read expressed as a percentage. A positive percentage indicates that I leans towards town on a player whereas a negative percentage indicates I lean towards scum on a player. Please note that the Null an Neutral sections contain both townreads and scumreads and you must look a the sign of the percentage in parenthesis to determine which way I lean.

Confidence ratings are rough estimates and are relative to one another. In addition, they tend to be scored on a logarithmic scale versus a linear scale; in other words, the difference between 0% and 30% tends to be greater than ther difference between 30% and 60%.

Also, this readslist is from a template I have, and it is from my perspective. There is no reason to scumread me just for including myself in my readslists as it is a stylistic issue versus an alignment indicative issue.

I didn't get to everyone, but most of the people not on here are prob. townleans.

Not my problem.

[Ircher]

note how ircher's readlist has a lack of clear statements of what is town/scum, instead using "anti-town", "bad", "dismissive"- he's trying to comment on things he doesn't need to comment on and it makes it seem like he's doing more than he actually is

No.

The word usage is done the way its done because what may appear to be "scummy" may not be indicative of scum and vice-versa.

[Ircher]

note how ircher's readlist has a lack of clear statements of what is town/scum, instead using "anti-town", "bad", "dismissive"- he's trying to comment on things he doesn't need to comment on and it makes it seem like he's doing more than he actually is

No.

The word usage is done the way its done because what may appear to be "scummy" may not be indicative of scum and vice-versa.

if you don't think they're scummy why are you talking about them?

Because one thing doesn't make a read. It's the entire picture that makes the read; I note anything that catches my attention and at the end, I evaluate what my true read there is.

[Ircher]

Actually, I ctrl+F'd my slot.

VOTE: Ircher

That was super weak dude.

Possibly true, but at the same time, you should note my confidence rating -- it isn't that high either.

[Ircher]

Are we massclaiming?

[Ircher]

I claim Town Even-Night Jailkeeper.

I targeted Kelvin last night.

[Ircher]

We also have pseudo-clears on MM4 and Penguin.

UNVOTE: .

[Ircher]

Massclaim. Are you paying attention?

[Ircher]

You could have just said "Yes, that's how it is phrased" or "No, it says that the person doesn't have a gun / guns". It is absurdly easy to just change the wording slightly to avoid breaking the rule. And if you had responded very quickly, that would look very villagery for you. So, regardless of your alignment, your reluctance did nothing to help.

Complaining over.

Honestly don't get what you are trying to accomplish here....

[Ircher]

This mass claim would not even happen if not for me. I want everyone's reads on me, right now.

I'm not actually sure massclaim was the best idea at the time.

[Ircher]

Nonetheless, I don't think Prisc is a good lynch today.

[Ircher]

This mass claim would not even happen if not for me. I want everyone's reads on me, right now.

I'm not actually sure massclaim was the best idea at the time.

Oh, and I'm Neutral leaning scum on you right now.

[Ircher]

This mass claim would not even happen if not for me. I want everyone's reads on me, right now.

I'm not actually sure massclaim was the best idea at the time.

Then why did you not argue against it?

Because you all had already agreed (for the most part) that we should massclaim.

Also because I honestly didn't evaluate the usefulness of massclaim today really. (Kind of a in-the-heat-of-the-moment thing.)

The main reason why I said I don't think massclaim today was the best idea is because town is in no danger of LyLo atm and with the people who already claimed, massclaim basically just outs the unclaimed protective if any.

I guess I can't blame you for the massclaim as I didn't protest like you commented. I'm just saying that in retrospect, massclaiming wasn't quite as good of an idea as it may have seemed.

Pedit: I changed my mind. Neutral leaning town.

[Ircher]

I dislike the view that a confirmation of not being a gun holder is confirmation of not-scum 100% of the time. It's possible for someone to be investigation immune.

For the time being

, I'm willing to see MM4 and Penguin Power as town based off of my results, but that doesn't mean we can blindly ignore anything suspect that they do.

II gives out No Result, I believe.

[Ircher]

Priscila, MMM, BigYoshiFan, Gamma Emerald.

My preferences (for lynch):

Gamma
MMM
Priscilla
Yoshi.

Also, I think we are about done w/ the day phase. Unless we have more to discuss, I think now would be a good time to end the day.

[Ircher]

V/LA May 28-June 4. May or may npt have Internet connection. Would rather not get replaced. (Maybe let someone temporarily fill my slot while I'm V/LA but not full-out replace me?)

[Ircher]

actually i like BYFscum+priscilatown more than MMMscum+gammatown
VOTE: BigYoshiFan

Why do you feel MMM and Gamma cannot both be scum?

(As in, you are proposing two teams where 1 player is town and the other is scum, yet why can't they both be scum or town?)

[Ircher]

So I'd like to start off with a comment saying that I lied a lil about my role.

I'm actually a three shot gunsmith. I wanted the first two results out just in case of anything and to get them out there in a game approaching a potential mislynch and lose situation if we got things wrong.

Problem is that I didn't get a result when I used my third shot last night, I targeted priscilla, I didn't get a result.

I'm not sure what to think of this, especially given it's like 3 am here, but I figured I'd drop this since I noticed the game thread's open.

I got a question for you:

Why didn't your slot cc or otherwise heavily doubt Havingfitz's Watcher claim D1? (Or maybe you did and I forget -- in that case, just quote yourself.)

The existence of a 3-shot gunsmith imo makes a full watcher very unlikely and a town 1-shot watcher pretty unlikely.

[Ircher]

It was. Terrible.

Then why? What was your motivation to do such?

Also, I'm no longer V/LA.

[Ircher]

Roleblocker does not make sense with only 2 town power roles who are both gated and on opposite nights. His claim must somehow be real.

Don't forget that DV is a very likely IC for town (despite miller, the chances of a scum DV aren't very high)

[Ircher]

Only way is that Ircher is just JK and jailed you

I am even night.

[Ircher]

Without Ray, town seems too weak.

If Ray is telling the truth, that means we have an unclaimed PR (such as a mafia ascetic). There are two possible explanations from my PoV:

1) The mods may some kind of error
2) Ray is gambitting here and is really just 2-shot.

[Ircher]

I feel town is too weak in that scenario; RayFrost being 2-shot and gambitting seems way more plausible imo.

[Ircher]

I will look into Priscilla and MMM tomorrow (hopefully).

[Ircher]

@Mods; Hypothetically, if there were a scenario were a player was an investigative, and got No Result when they were meant to get another result, would that player be sent the updated result?

I would believe that in that case they would.

[Ircher]

I put all the hypotheticals because it's not actually a hypothetical situation.

The moderation error was not explicitly related to my result, or the mods are outright lying to me (in which case, I quit. I just quit. I nope right the fuck out of everything.).

Though I'd like to see Priscila's reasoning for "ray is confirmed scum here"

Because I have popcorn. This will be great.

You got "no result". Meaning you had to be blocked, or you are lying. Quite simple.

VOTE: Priscilla

Don't like the way you are approaching this this page.

[Ircher]

Ok, here is where I stand before I go do ISO reads:

Out of all of us, I feel Mario is the most likely to be town modulo claims (based on play basically.) The no gun result pretty much seals it for me.

RayFrost is indirectly confirmed as a Gunsmith by mod error imo. Furthermore, I don't see the benefit of scum!RayFrost faking a No Result on Priscilla and adjusting his acceptable claim of two-shot into a somewhat suspicious three-shot claim. Finally, town is way too weak if RayFrost is a scum Gunsmith or even a scum Goon. The setup basically requires him to be town. That said, his Night 3 result is meaningless: Priscilla is neither confirmed scum nor is Priscilla necessarily Ascetic. And the chances mafia have another roleblocking role is rather slim. Basically, we ignore the N3 result.

PenguinPower's play has been questionable, but RayFrost has a no guns result here. Honestly, we're probably gonna have to bite the bullet and assume this one is town. Mafia is way too weak if Penguin is Traitor and while mafia Doctor is plausible, I don't think it's likely.

MMM, Gamma, and Priscilla are all unconfirmed right now. Last I checked, I believed Ganma to be the most town out of them, but I really need to do ISO reads on all of these.

[Ircher]

Since I'm the kill target tonight (most likely), I'm using my JK offensively.

[Ircher]

Btw, Priscilla is L-1.

I'm fine w/ a hammer though. Priscilla seems a bit too desparate not to be lynched.

[Ircher]

Sorry, that was not my real claim.

I was actually a night 2 delayed roleblocker. I used my action on Ray night 2, which means that he is actually blocked night 3.

I wish I could interpret all this information but I just do not know what to make of it.

Go look at the normal guidelines
You're confscum

That post is a joke making fun of how Ray claimed.

Pretty sure that was obvious.

Pedit: My reasons have nothing to w/ Ray's results. Your play the last few pages is why.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Gamma

[Ircher]

So why are you voting RayFrost? @MM4

[Ircher]

Reasons for targeting Gamma:

1) I townread Ray both on setup as well as gameplay in general (note: D1). The mislynch does not change that. Town is too weak w/o his role.
2) There are most likely two scum left; that means that the person they make do the kill is the one that they figure is most likely not to be jailed by me.
3) If I believe Ray's claim then I have no reason to assume that Penguin or Mario is scum. Furthermore, I townread Mario on play as well.
4) That leaves Gamma and MMM as

confirmed scum

from my PoV. There is the WIFOM, but I did state that I townread Gamma more than MMM. As a result, they would assume I would be more likely to target MMM, and as a result, I chose Gamma because I just cannot see RayFrost as scum in this setup.

@MM4 I see where you are coming from

[Ircher]

Ray had a no guns on him.

He's town by setup not by play.

[Ircher]

I should unvote in case you are right and scum no killed to frame whoever I jailed.
UNVOTE:

[Ircher]

So, if we operate under the assumption that Ray's GS claim is true:

1x Town Odd Cop
1x Town Even JK
1x Town Miller DV
1x Town 3-Shot GS
6x VT
---
1x Mafia 2-Shot RBer
?
?

I don't see a Traitor in this setup being possible unless there were 3 mafia left, but in that case, town would've been endgamed.

Penguin could be a Mafia Doctor, but given the meta against Godfather, I don't think it to be likely.. Though, tbh, I don't see Ray as scum because town would be way too weak. Yet town seems a bit overpowered w/ Ray given the current flips. Penguin being mafa doc is a bit more plausible now that I think about it.

[Ircher]

Without Ray, I think mafia traitor is likely because a 2-shot rb against town's already gated roles makes no sense.

[Ircher]

Mafia 2-Shot RB+Mafia Rolecop (?) + Mafia Traitor seems a bit unnecessarily swingy. And I'm not sure that combo is balanced.

[Ircher]

Unless you strongly doubt Ray's claim, then I think that lynching Gamma may still be the best play today. It still leaves the question of whether PP is traitor/doc but with two scum left, the chances that there isn't 1 scum in {Gamma, MMM} is imo low.

Pedit: The mods did say they made an error.

[Ircher]

Top 2 lynch candidates from everyone please.

[Ircher]

For me, it's Gamma followed by Penguin.

[Ircher]

honestly there is no reason for scum to not nokill here

This is... actually a good point.

Top 2 lynch candidates from everyone please.

Ray followed by PP. I could see Gamma being scum but since scum no killing is a possibility maybe we should actually discount Ircher's target, in which case my lynch targets become Ray and PP as I said.

Even w/o me alive, lynching in you and Gamma is actually a sensible move since everyone else is clear in some way (even if heavily doubted -- PP)

[Ircher]

I don't even know what this game is anymore

Considering he made this post and has clearly been on the last hour or two, I'm suspicious that Gamma is actively avoiding the thread.

I could understand not having anything to say -- but I asked everyone their top 2 lynch prefs to give people w/ nothing to say something to say.

[Ircher]

How do you not know?

Fine, just your scumreads and we'll go from there.

[Ircher]

Just waiting on RayFrost.... Probably will have to wait until tomorrow.

@Gamma -- Top 1?

[Ircher]

So, MMM is scum by setup PoE from your PoV.

There is a problem with that: who's the other scum?

[Ircher]

Like, one of PP or Ray has to be scum from your PoV unless you doubt my claim or scumread MM4 -- neither of which is the case.

If there was no setup to think about, who out of your 3 scumreads are scum based on play alone (ie: modulo claims)?

[Ircher]

Ircher - Gamma, Penguin
Mario - Ray, Gamma
MMM - Ray, Penguin
Penguin - Gamma, Ray
Gamma - MMM, Penguin
Ray - ?, ?

[Ircher]

If anyone's preferences are backwards, they should probably say so. If your reads are equal.... choose one to prefer over the other.

[Ircher]

I guess we'll play the waiting game then.

[Ircher]

Has it occurred to any of ypu that the mod error didn't necessarily have to oxcur the night before?

[Ircher]

Regarding the lynch candidates, I'd rather not say quite yet what my ordering is.

Instead, I'd like to ask a question of Penguin Power:

I cbf'd to make a quote-by-quote WoT case outside of MyLo/LyLo. If you want to lynch me for that...ok.

I'd like to take you up on this offer of a case during MyLo.

Make it for your top two: Gamma and myself.

I don't want the "it's just mechanical" excuse. I want reasons.

You have (expired on 2017-06-10 06:37:59) max and preferably sooner.

I'd rather this day finish before my next V/LA comes up. (So by next Tuesday at the latest.)

[Ircher]

Then RayFrost need RayFrost to list his top 2.

[Ircher]

Ircher - Gamma, Penguin
Mario - Ray, Gamma
MMM - Ray, Penguin
Penguin - Gamma, Ray
Gamma - MMM, Penguin
Ray - ?, ?

[Ircher]

Gamma v. Ray: 2-2
Gamma v. Penguin: 2-2
Ray v. Penguin: 3-2

Yeah, definitely need Ray's lynch preferences.

[XnadrojX]

He has (expired on 2017-06-09 15:00:28) to provide them.

tag fixed and time adjusted.

[Ircher]

Gamma v. Ray: 2-2
Gamma v. Penguin: 3-2
Ray v. Penguin: 3-2

Yeah, definitely need Ray's lynch preferences.

He has (expired on 2017-06-09 15:00:20) to provide them.

EBWOP
Sorry for spamming.

[Ircher]

Ircher - Gamma, Penguin
Mario - Ray, Gamma
MMM - Ray, Penguin
Penguin - Gamma, Ray
Gamma - MMM, Penguin
Ray - Gamma, Penguin

[Ircher]

	Gamma	Ray	Penguin
Gamma	-	3-2	4-2
Ray	2-3	-	3-3
Penguin	2-4	3-3	-

Gamma is our lynch atm.

[Ircher]

Because you're the only one who wants it...

This.
If MMM were an option, I'd have included him.

[Ircher]

Just gut or is there more to it?

[Ircher]

VOTE: Gamma

I think it's because if scum like tried to hard-defend now, then the other one would be much easier to spot the next phase.

[Ircher]

As in why would scum!Ray or why would town!Ray?

(I can see the latter but not really the former.)

[Ircher]

Yes.

[Ircher]

(I already am voting you...)

[Ircher]

VOTE: Priscila
I'm 100% here.

why did you pull this

Because I felt certain Priscila was mafia.
As for why I believe MMM is scum I've PoEd it down to PP and MMM after realizing Ray fakeclaiming is an insanely stupid gambit. I'm voting MMM since PP actually engaged me.

You are going to have to provide more than that to persuade us that MMM is the best lynch.

[Ircher]

@MMM:

You are basicall just watching his thread w/o trying to do anything. Why?

[Ircher]

Cool, but why does that make you want to lynch MMM over PP?

Because he has not engaged with me as respectfully as MMM has. iirc I disliked him during d3

???

[Ircher]

I believe Penguin is L-2 and Gamma is L-3.

Pedit: Idk, MMM is kinda making me feel uncomfortable rn.

Like, his D1 was awful, his D2 was bad, his day 3 and day 4 were pretty good, and today he's been pretty bad.

[Ircher]

Can you quote the relevant posts? I don't think I saw that.

Pedit: Honestly, I think it may just be Gamma+MMM.

And Ray is still town imo from a setup pov.

[Ircher]

The problem is you did too much watching today plus a few other things which I'll find in a sec.

Pedit: you are l-2

[Ircher]

honestly there is no reason for scum to not nokill here

This is... actually a good point.

Top 2 lynch candidates from everyone please.

Ray followed by PP. I could see Gamma being scum but since scum no killing is a possibility maybe we should actually discount Ircher's target, in which case my lynch targets become Ray and PP as I said.

This looked really bad from MMM imo.

[Ircher]

Hi Penguin. Please provide some thoughts.

I'm about 80% on this.
UNVOTE: for no.

[Ircher]

Well, maybe that's because I hadn't made up my mind yet at the time. And at this point I'm pretty certain in who I'm voting and it would require substantive evidence to change my mind.

Tbqh, I haven't seen a lot of conviction in your reads lately. Aka, I heavily doubt this is the case.

Oh ew nothing happened while I was gone.
Anyways, if y'all have more questions you want answered from me, then shoot and I'll get to it when I'm back tomorrow.

Here we go again. MMM is just sitting back watching and not trying to do anything to change the current state.

[Ircher]

What's the situation for this 20%?

MMM, though he isn't pushing you, is making me really question whether you are the correct lynch. Like, he feels too relaxed as if he's okay w/ the curren game state.

On the flip side, I'm pretty sure it's you+MMM anyway, and I still think it's better to lynch you first. The fact that MMM isn't expressig interest in lynching you kinda reinforces that.

[Ircher]

Eck
I think I see what is expected of me at this point
Ircher do you want me to go back to the huge multi ISO?

You can (and perhaps should.)

If it isn't you, who is it and why and how? PoE is not enough of a reason.

[Ircher]

Also, though deadline is longer, we are lynching before my next V/LA.

This day should end in (expired on 2017-06-13 15:00:00) or less.
Pedit: Better than nothing.

[Ircher]

If there was 1 scum left, I can buy that.

But two things:
1) Mario pointed out the possibility of a no kill gambit beforehand.
2) Bussing is a thing on this site.

But keep going.

[Ircher]

I'm honestly not convinced there is a traitor in this game.

A 1-shot Rolestopper or 1-shot Doctor I can somewhat see, but I honestly think 1-shot rolecop is more likely than both of those.

[Ircher]

You know, I like how Penguin came in here to say Hi and do absolutely nothing.

Objectively, I think Penguin's play has been the worst but I have a hard time seeing him as scum from a setup PoV.

[Ircher]

You realize there are two scum left and this is MyLo, right?

[Ircher]

But what if you are scum and MMM is town?

Then town loses.

I'm 95% sure it's you and MMM, but in the 5% chance I'm wrong, I currently prefer lynching you first.

[Ircher]

Penguin

- Get in here and vote.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Gamma
RayFrost doesn't make sense as scum and I just don't see Traitor in this setup.

[Ircher]

The power distro of RBer, Rolestopper, Traitor is unnecessarily wacky. Plus why haven't I ben CC'd by scum if they have a rolestopper?

[Ircher]

2-Shot RBer + 2-Shot Rolecop + Goon makes a lot more sense to me.

[Ircher]

I would expect that a scum 1-shot Rolestopper would've claimed by now.

[Ircher]

2-Shot RBer + 2-Shot Rolecop + Goon makes a lot more sense to me.

except that this setup is

literally impossible

unless Ray is scum

See, what you are assuming is the error occurred N3.

Havingfitz was able to get a rb off N1, and while we don't know who, the possibility exists that the mods gave a result when they should not have done so. Then they tried to correct it a later night.

[Ircher]

If Ray is not a gunsmith, how do we explain the fact that the mods psuedo-confirmed his role by announcing mod error in relation to his results?

[Ircher]

no
why would the mods do that

They are experienced but even experienced mods can make mistakes.

Not doing anything gives town an advantage and in a setup like this, it could make a significant difference.

[Ircher]

No Result isn't exactly an incorrect result since it signifies a lack of a result.

Would you prefer for the mods to completely not give you a result instead?

Like I understand what you are saying -- two wrongs don't make a right, but what else could they do? Ignoring it would make scum really angry at them since it basically is the equivalent of them losing.

[Ircher]

Still think Gamma is the proper lynch.

Traitor is still possible but the lack of such does not indicate that Ray is scum.

[Ircher]

I wish one of PP / RayFrost was on rn. We can't hammer anyone except maybe Penguin if they aren't here.

Pedit: Agreed.

[Ircher]

Doctor is way more likely than Traitor imo in a game with so many investigative clears.

[Ircher]

Traitors and Docs both give innos.

Peditf: Yeah, no. @Gamma

[Ircher]

Like, from my stance, Occam's Razor says it's Gamma+MMM because everyone else is pretty much confirmed.

[Ircher]

Vote gamma.

[Ircher]

@Ray Unless you see a specific reason why not to.

[Ircher]

Ray and MMM

- Vote.

[Ircher]

I think so (?)

[Ircher]

I'm ready.

Pedit: Same.

[Ircher]

MMM, are you going to vote Gamma or is their a specific reason you are staying off?

If you are scum, bus him.

[Ircher]

Where did Ray go? He said he was awake....

[Ircher]

Gg all! Thanks for modding!

[Ircher]

Alrighty then.
Now who was the one who fakeclaimed VT?

No one.

I got lucky.