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Post Post #937 (isolation #0) » Wed May 03, 2017 11:54 pm

Post by Prism »

Originally I had typed up a long post detailing an informal contract in order to keep myself engaged and accountable but I think it's too dramatic of a step. Instead of laying out a bunch of arbitrary rules for myself to stick to I'm going to lay out my goals for this game openly and ask you to intervene if you see that I am not fulfilling them. The incentive for calling me out if I am not will soon be obvious.

My largest goal for this game is to maintain my own morale and stay engaged with the game straight through. I have formed the bad habit of becoming extremely apathetic and failing to pull my fair share workwise, be it reading or explaining, after a hot start. Specifically, I have a bad habit of making promises I fail to keep, that I will post when I get home, that I will read X person when I have the time, etc., only to think that it can wait for a time when I'm more enthusiastic about the game. I have paid dearly for this repeatedly and have singlehandedly lost my team the game multiple times with my own laziness.

I think one thing I need to learn is that enthusiasm is something
created
from doing the reading and engaging to begin with, that it's fundamentally a positive cycle. In other words, making the attempt to engage leads to more enthusiasm and engagement, while avoidance leads to more apathy and avoidance. If you at all see me shying away, please call me out and reel me back in.

I realize the optimal entry post is to immediately dive in and give reads, however this is something that's extremely important to me and I strongly feel that laying it out at the very start, publicly, is the best way to dedicate myself to it and give me something to point back to. (Admittedly I'm also just very tired, know I can't read tonight, and know I'm therefore already in danger of falling into the cycle, and think this is a good way to ensure that doesn't happen) Catchup starts during my commute tomorrow.
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Post Post #1068 (isolation #1) » Thu May 04, 2017 8:19 pm

Post by Prism »

Heads up that I'm on my phone so the citations for this post could use some work. These thoughts are also based off of my thoughts from reading ~14 hours ago so they might be slightly inaccurate-I've tried to signal where my memory is less confident. After typing it up and editing it a few times it's also a bit scattered, but I would say my point about Boonskies's reaction to Alisae is the most important part for people. My comments on Nacho are more for him. Unfortunately that's become par for the course and that needs to change.

I'm only up to the mid 20s right now but I'm having a lot of problems with Nacho so far. His read on Boonskies from that time is a major stretch. Boon's early vote on rb was the only thing I found town about him, and his reaction to the Alisae dayvig was really bad in my opinion. It was very transparently focused on saying "Haha I'm town" to Alisae for no apparent reason-why say "Well I'm town so you're dead good job" and leave it at that? It seems to me as though he'd make more of an attempt to get more of Alisae rather than simply fingerwag that they'll die because he (Boon) was town. Let Alisae's death be the one to say "I told you so." It reads as a major failure to a pretty transparent reaction test.

VOTE: Boonskies for now.

I believe there was more to it but townread came off really contrived and so did his read evolution on Gin. I have a lot more to say about reading Nacho and my current thoughts on him but a big subset of those are better saved for 15-20 pages down the line.

I don't know what I liked about Titus but I did. I also liked the look of Frogger push that happened early on. I use "look" because it appeared to require meta verification.

Aristo's comment that it was only 4/5 hours also threw me for a massive loop and I think provided much-needed context for why those first ~20ish pages were all over the place. Then again, as I said I'm really poor at reading for alignment with a replace in so maybe that's more me trying to shift blame from myself instead of just taking responsibility for my flaws.
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Post Post #1069 (isolation #2) » Thu May 04, 2017 8:27 pm

Post by Prism »

Also, it is likely I won't be able to post later today or Saturday. I will have very limited internet access and possibly none at all. A big part of why I'm settling for my inarticulate, scattered, and largely first kneejerk reactions there is because I knew that it is unlikely I can contribute again until Sunday, making it important to set a pace for myself to jump back into.

The most visceral impression I've had from what I've read, and what I want more input on from others, still comes from Boonskies's reaction to Alisae and I think that anyone town reading him should reconsider. Perhaps something has happened since but that reaction seemed plainly fake to me and I'm unable to empathize with the positive reception it got.
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Post Post #1074 (isolation #3) » Thu May 04, 2017 8:49 pm

Post by Prism »

In post 1070, Nachomamma8 wrote:I see that this will probably be a game where we fight a lot
Do I get it? Yes. Is this a good attitude to have? Not at all.
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Post Post #1076 (isolation #4) » Thu May 04, 2017 8:56 pm

Post by Prism »

I'm assuming you're looking for my alignment here and I don't know where it's to be found in that question. Nobody wants to fight and argue and consistently completely disagree with another town in a game that revolves around cooperation and consensus.
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Post Post #1077 (isolation #5) » Thu May 04, 2017 9:02 pm

Post by Prism »

I realized I left out "trust" as an important component of that but I don't think winning Nacho's trust is ever happening when I'm town and historically I've been pretty bad at townreading him within certain parameters as well.
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Post Post #1079 (isolation #6) » Thu May 04, 2017 9:05 pm

Post by Prism »

That's actually a pretty good post.
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Post Post #1082 (isolation #7) » Thu May 04, 2017 9:15 pm

Post by Prism »

I agree that there's not a lot more he could have done, the description of optimal you gave was what I had in mind but that was more a passing thought.

The point is more that his reaction to it again felt plainly fake and forced, and hardly as though he believed either would die. Instead of either dismissing it or verbalizing his lack of certainty, he appeared to be focusing on appearing like he believed it so that he'd "pass". Even a suboptimal, indignant reaction is fine, as long as it's genuine, but it doesn't read such to me at all.
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Post Post #1083 (isolation #8) » Thu May 04, 2017 9:20 pm

Post by Prism »

Like some of his posts on that page going back were okay but this one in particular was awful:
In post 405, Boonskiies wrote:Lol, okay. I'm town.
The followup one about how "Congrats you killed yourself" or whatever might have been fine on its own but reading it after reading the quoted just read as making sure he sends the message he's town one more time.
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Post Post #1084 (isolation #9) » Thu May 04, 2017 9:25 pm

Post by Prism »

I've got to sleep now so I'm signing off, I hope this clarified what I mean.


Spoiler: ♥
Image
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Post Post #1748 (isolation #10) » Sun May 07, 2017 8:24 am

Post by Prism »

Hey everybody, I'm back.



~ Yessss!! BEST EVERRRR!!!! ~
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Post Post #1765 (isolation #11) » Sun May 07, 2017 10:54 am

Post by Prism »

In post 1760, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I miss Prism and I feel that her presence is lackluster
I just got back from 2 days of no internet after being here for all of 16/17 hours beforehand. I wasn't even fully caught up before and now there's another 30+ pages. I'm not sure what "presence" you expected here given this.
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Post Post #1766 (isolation #12) » Sun May 07, 2017 10:56 am

Post by Prism »

To be more explicit with my return post, as well as reiterating something I said earlier: If you want to help me out, a quick summary of your most salient takes from the game thus far would do wonders for me.
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Post Post #1768 (isolation #13) » Sun May 07, 2017 10:57 am

Post by Prism »

In post 1069, Prism wrote:Also, it is likely I won't be able to post later today or Saturday. I will have very limited internet access and possibly none at all. A big part of why I'm settling for my inarticulate, scattered, and largely first kneejerk reactions there is because I knew that it is unlikely I can contribute again until Sunday, making it important to set a pace for myself to jump back into.
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Post Post #1770 (isolation #14) » Sun May 07, 2017 10:58 am

Post by Prism »

Anyway it doesn't matter, I'm working on it, just got mildly annoyed, please hold.
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Post Post #1774 (isolation #15) » Sun May 07, 2017 11:40 am

Post by Prism »

I'm having a really hard time parsing this and get my best reads via personal interactions with others so again, if anyone wants to give me their quick salient points, that would really help.
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Post Post #1775 (isolation #16) » Sun May 07, 2017 11:45 am

Post by Prism »

Like, if someone has a strong feeling someone is scum and think they have laid it out clearly in a post, please point me to it, or do so now.

Picking something relatively narrow to focus on would really help me out, because right now it's page after page of weak reads, walls, simple slap fights, and incredibly entangled interactions all mixed together. I got barely anything out of the first pages minus the Alisae/Boonskies interactions and Nacho's walls on page 26 because it quickly turns more into like watching television. It's just a mess to stare at 40 pages more of and I'd really appreciate a good starting point.
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Post Post #1777 (isolation #17) » Sun May 07, 2017 12:05 pm

Post by Prism »

In post 1738, Firebringer wrote:VOTE: Alisae
I must lynch my grandson, I don't feel he is town this game!!!!!
I am sorry grandson I can't explain it more than that, it just feels like the way you are arguing with people isn't townie. It feels like how you tend to work as scum more so. Like I feel like your trying to imitate town you more than actually be you.

Its in your interactions with Fro99er, its in your interactions with me, its all over.
I feel like you're trying to explain it here but it's not really going into the depth that you seem to be able to.

What about their posts make them look like an imitation to you?
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Post Post #1778 (isolation #18) » Sun May 07, 2017 12:05 pm

Post by Prism »

ie. You say you can't explain it more, but it looks like you can if you push a little bit harder, and maybe my question helps.
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Post Post #1838 (isolation #19) » Sun May 07, 2017 4:45 pm

Post by Prism »

Largely expected. What do you not believe about my statements re: parsing?
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Post Post #1839 (isolation #20) » Sun May 07, 2017 4:46 pm

Post by Prism »

Directed at Dayne
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Post Post #1841 (isolation #21) » Sun May 07, 2017 4:46 pm

Post by Prism »

Poor phrasing on my end so my apologies-do you not believe my statements re: parsing is the starting question, my assumption is he don't.
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Post Post #1842 (isolation #22) » Sun May 07, 2017 4:47 pm

Post by Prism »

"He don't" Someone kill me.
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Post Post #1880 (isolation #23) » Sun May 07, 2017 5:49 pm

Post by Prism »

Spoiler: Dayne posts
In post 1843, Ser Arthur Dayne wrote:
In post 1838, Prism wrote:Largely expected. What do you not believe about my statements re: parsing?
The fact it's so easy to make and looks like you're really just not interested in figuring out the game.

Here I'll show you an example between what town fallen behind and scum fallen behind look like:

In post 840, Hikari Link wrote:Thanks. I am really uncomfortable leaving 12 pages unread, so I'll probably go back and read them at some point, on the off chance I can actually get some information. I'll Try to catch up from 24 for now and post tonight. I have class right now and a fairly easy paper to write by midnight, but once all of that is done, I promise I'll catch up and become a contributing member of this game.
In post 1774, Prism wrote:I'm having a really hard time parsing this and get my best reads via personal interactions with others so again, if anyone wants to give me their quick salient points, that would really help.
In post 1845, Ser Arthur Dayne wrote:Ari's reaction to the pages are the same way.

It's the same thing I pull off when I'm scum, I'm really just not interested in reading a lot of pages so it's easier for me to just complain about the amount of pages or how dense the game is and then ask people to interact with me. It's easier to hide in interaction than it is to go through a bunch of posts and commit to hard reads as scum, whereas a townie is delighted to have that much game content to sit down and go through to figure out the scum.

It's not even about the AMOUNT there is. You can sit down and read 10 pages. Or 20. Or however much you have time for. But the point is there's JUICY CONTENT there. Scum just don't care to read it whatsoever.

Pedit: Yeah but it looked like you were frustrated with Alisae's reasoning for voting Titus but then you jumped on the wagon?
I think there are a few things worth commenting on here. I'll divide them into two separate groups, with the first being my questions about it and the second being more personal comments.

Spoiler:
Firstly, my understanding of your point is that you seem to think town is more likely to catch up. This appears to be based more off of what you yourself do, as well as an intuitive guess. Applying it to me seems a reasonable step. My issue is that this seems to be more effort-based than anything else. The logic here is that scum don't want to try as hard, whereas town is eager to, which is a bit of a fallacy. The goal of most scum players is to seem town, which comes via effort and reading etc, which gets you into a bit of a circular loop. I realize it's a bit more nuanced than this, in that there are reasons to coast as scum but very rarely as town, but none of these factors are really at play here. Without trying to strawman, it appears as though you're drawing a very direct line between effort rereading and mafia. Specifically, what scum incentive do you envision I have to not post Hikari-style, knowing it is more likely to be townread?

My second comment is that I think you've misunderstood my posts. I fully intend to read and use every post in this game at some point. My trouble is that it is extremely hard for me to read for alignment in large groups of postings. I can indeed read 5-6 pages (Typically my magic number) at a time, but this will leave me very well behind and largely irrelevant to the game at hand. My strategic suggestion was not to start with a blank slate but instead to narrow my focus by giving me a
starting point
to trampoline off of in my read. To draw a comparison, here's a study on selection of jams based on the variety available. The implicit assumption of most people is that choice is empowering, when in reality it can be overwhelming. As the variety of options to pick from goes up, the ease of choice becomes much harder and you're often paralyzed just wondering how you got there. What I'm essentially asking people to do is to narrow my choice of jams to 2-3 good ones, and then expand from there. Right now I'm looking at a bunch of different jams and not really knowing where to start, because chronologically seems to be leaving me the choice of either permanent irrelevancy or mindless skimming. Think of a tree, where you start me from a seed or trunk and I expand out on my own from there, both in roots downward and in branches outward.
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Post Post #1888 (isolation #24) » Sun May 07, 2017 6:08 pm

Post by Prism »

@Titus
: Skimming your ISO it looks like your number one choice is Hikari-can I get some elaboration on that?

Ctrl+F searching their name gets me these two posts:

Spoiler: First
In post 1493, Titus wrote:
In post 1111, Tammy wrote:
In post 1103, Titus wrote:
In post 1065, Hikari Link wrote:@Titus: What do you mean that you don't see Nacho and implosion melding? What do you make of Nacho's post where he breaks down his reads to me?

Also, can you reiterate who you read as scum and who you think is town? I know you're still sorting, but give me the best you've got, please.
Hmph. Not liking the vote on me while you know I am sorting.

Second, I mean those agreements Implosion talks about. I don't see two players in sync at all. I see Nacho retreating the moment after Implosion stops pushing Tammy.

I don't see much in Nacho's wall, particularly his Tammy read. He basically says town by meta and has nuance. It rings hollow given Tammy's basic state is nuance. There's nothing someone who isn't a meta hunter can engage with.
Why do you have to be done sorting for her to put a vote on you? I'd say we're all still in the process of sorting, so should nobody be voting? Why can't he just scum read you?

I feel like in the second paragraph you're doing that thing you do where you ignore people's explanations and push a narrative of something that didn't happen and is not happening without assessing what is actually going on.

You do not have to agree on every single thing to be "in sync", and you keep pushing that bit which is not a big part of the read anyway. Nacho was joking with his vote on implosion in the first place; this is exactly what he did in Gay Mafia when Hiplop was voting me. He wasn't scum reading hiplop at the time, he was making a point about hiplop's bad scum read on me. Same thing here with implosion.

If you are town, you are misreading/misunderstanding and are ignoring the posts people have made setting that straight. If implosion is scum, it's not because of that because his early game interaction with me is very similar to the last game we played together. Here is his iso from that game. You can see him interacting with me in a very similar way as town in his first few posts: viewtopic.php?t=62686&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

If he's scum, he's just trying to mimic that interaction. (I'm leaning town at the moment; I'm just trying to point out that the interaction is null as far as I'm concerned.)

I am worried that you saw the beginning of a town group forming and are trying to break that up, which is something that I normally think is stupid, but it's something I am concerned about here.

I don't understand your problem with town read on me from nacho. And I don't understand why you're acting like it's something you can't touch or prod. You can still ask him questions. You can still ask me questions. It feels wrong that if it's something you don't trust or can't understand that you're not poking at it or trying to understand.

pedit: Not gonna lie, I know that's a fake, but still my heart dropped with sadness for a split second before I chuckled.
First, if HL knows I am sorting, it implies they know I am town, as scum don't have to sort anyone.

You can say I am misreading things but when reality conflicts with players literal text to me, I am going to have a scumread. To me, it looks like Nacho scumread implosion and backed off the moment Implosion TRed you.

It also feels Nacho decided you were town before you set foot in the thread.

It's D1 and I am open to being wrong, but replies like yours that essentially say plug your nose to our circle jerk are not helpful. I am curious about your other reads.
This seems a bit of a stretch to me. The sorting point doesn't really make sense and is putting the chicken before the egg. HL knows you're sorting but that doesn't say anything as to whether or not it's genuine, ie. whether you're scum or town. Fundamentally I don't get the issue here.
Spoiler: Second
In post 1494, Titus wrote:
In post 1131, Hikari Link wrote:
In post 1103, Titus wrote:
In post 1065, Hikari Link wrote:@Titus: What do you mean that you don't see Nacho and implosion melding? What do you make of Nacho's post where he breaks down his reads to me?

Also, can you reiterate who you read as scum and who you think is town? I know you're still sorting, but give me the best you've got, please.
Hmph. Not liking the vote on me while you know I am sorting.

Second, I mean those agreements Implosion talks about. I don't see two players in sync at all. I see Nacho retreating the moment after Implosion stops pushing Tammy.

I don't see much in Nacho's wall, particularly his Tammy read. He basically says town by meta and has nuance. It rings hollow given Tammy's basic state is nuance. There's nothing someone who isn't a meta hunter can engage with.
You've been "sorting" for an awful long time (pot calling the kettle black, admittedly). And in that time, you've dodged questions and basically been a non-entity.
In post 1104, Titus wrote:Now, Gun to my head Implosion and Ari are my SRs. Could do Ali as well but I have two competing theories.
Are you taking the position townNacho's not competent enough to be able to tell between scumTammy and townTammy at this point? I just want to be clear where you stand on him, because it kinda sounds like you're shading him without reading him as scum.
VOTE: HL

Holy fuck this post is terrible.

Calling me a non-entity and dodging questions is a load of horse manure. I have been driving and sorting and asking questions. I sort based on group dynamics and how players treat each other.

The total misrepresentation of my read as Nacho isn't comptent enough to read Tammy is just terrible. He IS competent enough to read Tammy. He is also better at describing things and communicating why slots are the way they are and appearing genuine.
The first seems to be a matter of perception to me, rather than inherently scummy. It seems a plausible enough mistake as town, especially if he really managed to sift through all that. Part of my problem is I clearly was unable to keep anything straight when I tried to do it so quickly. The Nacho point in my opinion is a good one, it might be a bit unfair or loaded but it is really just asking you to take a clearer stance on what you think of Nacho in regards to Tammy.

Is there something more convincing I'm missing, or do you have a different scumread?
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Post Post #1889 (isolation #25) » Sun May 07, 2017 6:40 pm

Post by Prism »

Spoiler:
In post 1889, Ser Arthur Dayne wrote:
In post 1882, Prism wrote: Firstly, my understanding of your point is that you seem to think town is more likely to catch up. This appears to be based more off of what you yourself do, as well as an intuitive guess. Applying it to me seems a reasonable step. My issue is that this seems to be more effort-based than anything else. The logic here is that scum don't want to try as hard, whereas town is eager to, which is a bit of a fallacy. The goal of most scum players is to seem town, which comes via effort and reading etc, which gets you into a bit of a circular loop. I realize it's a bit more nuanced than this, in that there are reasons to coast as scum but very rarely as town, but none of these factors are really at play here. Without trying to strawman, it appears as though you're drawing a very direct line between effort rereading and mafia. Specifically, what scum incentive do you envision I have to not post Hikari-style, knowing it is more likely to be townread?
It's not that it's hard to say or show that you care (although there can prob be an argument made about how genuine people react to the amount of posts but let's leave that for a sec), it's that it's hard to actually DO read and commit to solid reads whereas the benefit of interacting is a) looking active and contributing and b) much easier to hide in, buddy people, get into arguments that make you look town, etc.
I think this is a very one-dimensional characterization that is summed up a bit in your point b. Interaction is inherently a pro-town action from the get-go, you don't just "get into arguments that make you look town" as scum and it's really that simple. You've got to get into arguments about
something
, and those somethings tend to be the solid reads you state that town should be looking for. I'm trying for the most part to stay away from meta but I think several players here can vouch that I definitely do my best work, readwise, interpersonally. I think my opening post and those that follow cement exactly why I've pursued this path over others.
In post 1889, Ser Arthur Dayne wrote:
In post 1882, Prism wrote:My second comment is that I think you've misunderstood my posts. I fully intend to read and use every post in this game at some point. My trouble is that it is extremely hard for me to read for alignment in large groups of postings. I can indeed read 5-6 pages (Typically my magic number) at a time, but this will leave me very well behind and largely irrelevant to the game at hand.
No, this was exactly what I'm saying.

You can take any number of pages at any point in the game and get reads off of them - because people's alignment doesn't change over the course of the game. But from you it looked like you started trying to read, but then quickly saw it was futile because you had no interest in figuring people's alignment out, and copped out for the easier and more beneficial route.
This is largely ignoring the plausible other explanation for why I consider it futile, which I get considering that you scumread the rb slot anyway. However, I take some issue with you excluding the rest of my post. It lays out
exactly
why I chose to do what I did, and even more exactly lays out the path ahead for myself I have envisioned. All of the things you're looking for are included in this vision-solid reads, solving the game with past information, and more.
In post 1889, Ser Arthur Dayne wrote:The other major problem I had with your post is that it looked like you were ASKING people to interact with you, rather than you creating the conversation and probing around. Which, again, is not town-motivated. Town wants to figure the game out. Scum want to go "see look I'm town and active".
The final part is puzzling. The point was that I was struggling to find a good starting point, and wanted assistance with it. I was indeed asking people to interact with me, and was very open about it, but it was a lot more than "I'm town and active". My open question is the
perfect
conversation creator. I asked for a concrete starting point that I would immediately set out to review and reflect on. It is mutually beneficial to do so. I'm immediately giving you a blank check for deciding what I look at and respond to. If I am scum, I am forced to interact with it, take a stance on it, and respond in a seemingly organic way. If I am town, it clearly shows me your viewpoint, provides me a good starting point necessary for my playstyle, and gets me involved in the game extremely quickly. The idea that I'm not probing also seems questionable-how do you characterize my attempt to get more out of Firebringer? My instinct is that you'll draw up a distinction between "good" and "bad" probing, but I really fail to see any way that you could say that I'm disinterested in either Fire or his read on Alisae.

Fundamentally, this boils down to how I approach the game, and I get how you can scumread it for the surface level, which is why I said it wasn't a shocker. The point of this extrapolation is to get you to realize why I think such an approach is optimal. Restated, this is again that I'm poor at reading in bulk, and devised a way around this that incorporates the past in a more manageable, focused way that gets me immediately reading people without getting lost. This way, and why I think it will work, is described more extensively in the above.
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Post Post #1890 (isolation #26) » Sun May 07, 2017 6:46 pm

Post by Prism »

Summarized (though I really recommend you read it in full) your main critiques seem to be (and correct me if I'm wrong) that it avoids giving reads, avoids gamesolving based off of past information, and is looking for raw interaction over either of the former.

The first two are clearly laid out for how I am going to achieve them in a way that's more effective to me as a player. You can go further and say that I
hadn't
achieved them, but this was before it had even begun (we're in the middle of it) and would not be a fair argument. The last seems fallacious-scum want to interact because it looks town, but town want to interact because it is an extremely powerful way to achieve the stated goals of getting reads and gamesolving.
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Post Post #1891 (isolation #27) » Sun May 07, 2017 6:54 pm

Post by Prism »

I've got to go eat now but I want my next flurry of posting to be largely springboarding off of one of Nacho's read walls. In particular, he normally provides a fair chunk of reasoning and checking his interpretations against my own is more likely to provide fruit than any other at this juncture, I think. I am very salty that no one was willing to really toss me a bone because again, this was a perfect chance for you as well, not just for me.

Because I know someone inevitably going to say or at least think "But why are you saying this? Why don't you just do it you scum?" I'm going to point to my first post explaining how I'm setting largely arbitrary engagement goalposts for myself. This will be a constant theme throughout the game and is likely good for you in the long run, even if they can be largely ignored or discarded.
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Post Post #2005 (isolation #28) » Mon May 08, 2017 6:46 am

Post by Prism »

Bless your souls Tammy and Keyser, I'll work through these now.
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Post Post #2032 (isolation #29) » Mon May 08, 2017 7:12 am

Post by Prism »

I'm mixed on Titus but I'd lean town. My impression of the Nacho/implosion first pages were that it seemed entirely normal for a town Nacho and weird for a town implosion, so I get how she characterized them as "off". I've only got one game with implosion, where he was town and I was mafia, and he was noticeably more different. I chalked this difference up mainly to a difference in characters present, as I have noticed that Nacho (and it seems Tammy) drastically change interpersonal dynamics. I'm also just not confident in my memory from a game months ago that I was scum in anyway.

I agree that the push on Hikari was really bad, but I wouldn't characterize it as scummy. There's a difference between a bad case and a malicious case, and this seems more like the former. (I'm talking primarily about their comments with regards to sorting-I don't think she'd have made those as scum if she knew they were fallacious. It was likely unintentional.) This doesn't really affect my read on Titus but I think Tammy's characterization of Titus simply muttering rather than actively trying to sort is also inaccurate, skimming Titus's ISO I've seen numerous followups/attempts to extract more, especially early on with Implosion and later with Hikari. In general I've been skeptical of Titus's reasoning but I see no reason to think of them as malicious, instead seeing reason to view them as coming from the right place, and they seem genuine. The Nacho scumread is a really odd one to push if she's scum with anyone besides Nacho.
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Post Post #2044 (isolation #30) » Mon May 08, 2017 7:18 am

Post by Prism »

I don't agree with your characterization of Titus's posts in the last few pages, Tammy. She clearly townreads you but is frustrated with some elements of your play, and while you may think of disagreeing and explaining as not being discrediting, you're already doing the same in that very post.

You explicitly state that Nacho is "someone you can read better than anyone." While this is likely a fact, the implication of it is that other's opinions on him are inherently less valuable or valid. This again
can be completely true
but it is definitely discrediting Titus. I think her reaction here feels town in the sense that she's not saying you're discrediting her from a scum place, but rather something you're doing as town that she thinks you should stop.

P-Edit: This is moving quickly so some parts of this may be outdated, I'll respond to anything in between in a followup rather than edit it now.
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Post Post #2091 (isolation #31) » Mon May 08, 2017 7:41 am

Post by Prism »

My top vote right now would probably be Gin whose play is wildly different from what I've experienced from him as town. It feels like an empty shell of the genuine effort he'd make in other games. Particularly, the efforts to engage or extract from others that I've seen are either nonexistent or ring incredibly hollow.

VOTE: Gin

Dayne's recent posts on me still aren't great as far as reasoning goes, and in particular he seems to be mostly moving the goalposts. The first issue was my choice of method that was more likely to come from scum, the second was that I promised content but hadn't given it. The problem with the second is that it's prejudging that it's not there before I was given anywhere close to adequate time.

This did read legitimately to me and combined with my read on Gin is enough for me to shift over:
Spoiler:
In post 1955, Ser Arthur Dayne wrote:Someone needs to explain to me why they are townreading the Rb/Prism slot because everything they are writing is looking forced and manipulative and I can no longer tell if it's confirmation bias or people are just ignoring me.
There's a two things I really like about this and one I don't but honestly doesn't matter. The first is the possibility of confirmation bias, which I think explains the moving goalpost and presupposition. Viewed from this lens it makes sense and I think it'd be quite a leap to expect me to make this connection about
how
it's manifested and expect it as scum. The second I like is the characterization of me as forced, because this is
absolutely true
, I'm forcing myself to a great extent, in attitude, in the style of play I'm trying to cultivate and in the way I'm forcing myself to be more honest than I normally am. This is
not
my regular town play. If you're again confused as to why I would admit this or do this, again my opening post #937 lays out what changes I'm trying to make and why. This leads into the minor issue I take with it, which is I don't think what I'm doing could
ever
be described as manipulative in an underhanded sense. Either I am being completely, totally honest with everything or I am lying to pretend I am. There's no real room for more subtle or underhanded motive with the way I've chosen to play. Again, this minor negative doesn't really factor into reading Dayne-it seems mostly an extension of the "forced" perception.


tl;dr: Dayne's last post on me is good and I should probably vote elsewhere (*cough* Gin *cough*) pending more reading of Boon.
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Post Post #2102 (isolation #32) » Mon May 08, 2017 7:45 am

Post by Prism »

I think this is a shitshow and think it's likely that all of Tammy, Titus, Dayne, and Nacho are town. Next up to read should be Gin and Keyser.

I'm least certain on Nacho of those but that will change if he's town. I haven't played with him when he's scum other than our hydra but I'm reasonably confident I can read him, and Tammy town likely means Nacho town.
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Post Post #2110 (isolation #33) » Mon May 08, 2017 7:58 am

Post by Prism »

Read on Tammy is worth elaborating on actually. The strongest reason to think she's town is simply that Nacho thinks so, and I trust that 100% given what he's said about her to me in the past. Even if he's mafia he knows, or at least thinks inwardly, that going against her is committing suicide. Part of my wariness of Nacho this game is that I
know
he's desperate to get Tammy to townread him when he flips mafia and I basically keep seeing shadows in the corner of some of his posts that seem to be angling for it. Some of them I thought more about and they were stupid, but if my perception was correct and they really are/were there then it confirms Tammy is town.

This is a really terrible reason but I also just like her read on me early. She knows from Nacho that my scumgame is not to be undersold but seemed to realize the honesty present in my early posts. It's possible she's townreading me to get Nacho to pull her back and seem legitimate and fool him in turn, but I think this is unlikely.

I really, really want more from Nacho.
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Post Post #2114 (isolation #34) » Mon May 08, 2017 8:12 am

Post by Prism »

@Dayne:
I have to leave now, I will check Ari instead of Keyser next.
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Post Post #2261 (isolation #35) » Mon May 08, 2017 10:45 am

Post by Prism »

I haven't fully read the last few pages as my focus was elsewhere but I'm not getting how this is matching up to town Gin, at all.
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Post Post #2264 (isolation #36) » Mon May 08, 2017 10:47 am

Post by Prism »

Very opposed. Still think this is town. I get how Tammy thinks it's scum but I don't understand why most people do. Likely scumdriven.
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Post Post #2270 (isolation #37) » Mon May 08, 2017 10:48 am

Post by Prism »

Looking at the people voting I'm fucking stupid that's likely not scum driven.

Think before you type, folks. That's the lesson here.
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Post Post #2539 (isolation #38) » Thu May 11, 2017 11:42 am

Post by Prism »

I PM'd nancy already but I am unable to continue this game.

With this in mind, I am ambivalent in how I feel about this game. I accomplished my goal of avoiding biting, sarcastic replies and instead staying energetic and hopeful. Simultaneously, I have been unable to put in the work that this table and game justifies. In this sense, I have accomplished nothing.

I suspect this will be read as a scum replaceout, coming right after the night rather than before. I assure you that this is not the case despite its lack of fairness for my replacement. My refusal to replace out earlier is not out of malice but out of my own stubbornness, and daybreak is the point at which I must throw in the towel.


~ ;~; ~
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Post Post #2540 (isolation #39) » Thu May 11, 2017 11:50 am

Post by Prism »

If you have any questions about my play thus far, now is the time to ask as later it will be a black box.

My reads that are my own that I can recall (ie. Not trusting Nacho on Tammy) are Titus town and Gin scum. I would assign medium confidence to Titus town and low confidence in Gin scum.
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Post Post #2545 (isolation #40) » Thu May 11, 2017 12:17 pm

Post by Prism »

Working on something else but in the meantime I can paste this part here and respond to Tammy:

@Firebringer:
Negative. I had feelings about Dayne being town yesterday but I think they were nebulous and fundamentally wrong.

I'm skeptical of Nacho's votes but simply the fact that Tammy says so makes Nacho extremely likely to be town.
In post 2544, Tammy wrote:
In post 2540, Prism wrote:If you have any questions about my play thus far, now is the time to ask as later it will be a black box.

My reads that are my own that I can recall (ie. Not trusting Nacho on Tammy) are Titus town and Gin scum. I would assign medium confidence to Titus town and low confidence in Gin scum.

But you did trust nacho on me, you made a whole post about why you town read me and it was part of nacho town reading me and you thinking that he might be trying to fool me.
I mixed it up a bit, I don't entirely trust Nacho and think it is possible he was fooling you, as mentioned before. I
do
trust his read on you and that you're town, because either he's scum who broke the barrier or is town and correct.
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Post Post #2546 (isolation #41) » Thu May 11, 2017 12:17 pm

Post by Prism »

Working on something else but in the meantime I can paste this part here and respond to Tammy:

@Firebringer:
Negative. I had feelings about Dayne being town yesterday but I think they were nebulous and fundamentally wrong.
In post 2544, Tammy wrote:
In post 2540, Prism wrote:If you have any questions about my play thus far, now is the time to ask as later it will be a black box.

My reads that are my own that I can recall (ie. Not trusting Nacho on Tammy) are Titus town and Gin scum. I would assign medium confidence to Titus town and low confidence in Gin scum.

But you did trust nacho on me, you made a whole post about why you town read me and it was part of nacho town reading me and you thinking that he might be trying to fool me.
I mixed my words up. I don't entirely trust Nacho and think it is possible he was fooling you, as mentioned before. I
do
trust his read on you and that you're town, because either he's scum who broke the barrier or is town and correct.
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Post Post #2547 (isolation #42) » Thu May 11, 2017 12:19 pm

Post by Prism »

I removed that third sentence to mix in the final post so if you'll hold your horses I'll get there, my last part is just for Nacho town.
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Post Post #2564 (isolation #43) » Thu May 11, 2017 1:36 pm

Post by Prism »

This next paragraph was made before he posted his latest readlist. I don't know what to think about the Fire placement but the rest seems like what I would expect, particularly with regards to me.

I'm skeptical of Nacho's votes but simply the fact that Tammy says so makes Nacho extremely likely to be town. Nacho has made an incredible effort to try and get over that obstacle, and it's possible he has. This is the reason I trust Nacho's read on Tammy 100% but not Tammy's 100% on Nacho. Regardless this is
objectively very unlikely
to happen in this game. The fact that Tammy is alive today reinforces that she is correct here, in the sense that Nacho fooling her two days in a row is unlikely in his mind and he knows it.

Next part is just for him.

Spoiler: To Big Cho
I've typed and backspaced and typed up this thing for you like 500 times with all sorts of weird shit so I'll just be blunt and hit send. First, before I get to the rest, thanks for inviting me to the game. We both know I don't want to replace out and I'm sorry I can't followthrough on this with you.

Second, assuming you're town, I typed up a bunch of shit about how you should focus on my replacement but "Oh, here's this weird smoke signal bullshit that I always do if you need help, in the form of an emergency button". You don't need help, just don't focus so much on me as much as my replacement.

I can't resist selfcommentating so reason I say that is that my playstyle, as far as
how
I've approached playing is purposely closer to my scumgame, in the sense that there are a lot of fundamentally positive traits I more easily display as scum but quickly run out of as town (Eagerness to cooperate, patience, not jumping to sarcasm/looking down on the other players) and this game was a conscious attempt to fix that disparity. My chance to engage earlier was an attempt to make up for the fact that this was practically guaranteed to get you to scumread me as a result of the meta shift.
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Post Post #2571 (isolation #44) » Thu May 11, 2017 1:39 pm

Post by Prism »

I actually should have asked for his reason for scumreading me before I posted that rather than assuming it, fuck.

He's probably town anyway but that would have confirmed it.
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Post Post #2574 (isolation #45) » Thu May 11, 2017 1:40 pm

Post by Prism »

I've got 20 more minutes before I have to go, I think I got really arrogant with my Titus read yesterday so I can doublecheck it the best I can but I saw very little scum intent outside the hammer.

Any other questions for me again now's the time.

P-Edit: Nacho
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Post Post #2577 (isolation #46) » Thu May 11, 2017 1:43 pm

Post by Prism »

In post 2568, Titus wrote:
In post 2564, Prism wrote:The fact that Tammy is alive today reinforces that she is correct here, in the sense that Nacho fooling her two days in a row is unlikely in his mind and he knows it.
Please, we all have an affinity for players we like.
True, just because Tammy could catch him doesn't mean it's worth it to kill her, so that's wrong reasoning on my end.
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Post Post #2583 (isolation #47) » Thu May 11, 2017 1:50 pm

Post by Prism »

I don't place a lot of stock in my ability to get a solid read off of 6 minutes of skimming through Titus but can at least do this.

@People scumreading Titus:
Incentive she has to go all out vs. Nacho/Tammy like that yesterday is close to 0. She knew she was digging her own grave and some of the lines "I kind of just want to prove Nacho is scum so that Tammy..." reads pretty legitimately.

@Nacho:
This isn't going to be something that helps my slot whatsoever but maybe it'll turn out to be a utilitarian good statement. I'm the one hard defending Titus and you have us as scum together. This is a pretty weird path I'm taking as scum. It makes more sense that at least one of your reads on us is wrong, if not both, and if it's me then it's worth rereading Titus to see if I'm chainsawing her. Again weird argumentative path but try it.
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Post Post #2587 (isolation #48) » Thu May 11, 2017 1:54 pm

Post by Prism »

I've got to go now, my thoughts on the game are basically as out there as I've been able to get them. Fire doesn't really seem that town to me, Hikari is null but the tone reads town, Gin leans scum, Ari I never read. These probably aren't worth shit. That's all I can think of.

Thanks to everyone for playing with me and for putting up with so much. I'm again sorry that I'm forced to replace out like this, and I hope to be able to play again soon. I enjoyed the time we had and felt I was making progress in my play, even if I wasn't playing well.

Especially thanks to nancy for reaching out to me to play, to replace in, and finally for listening to my request to give me another hour in the game before actually replacing me so I can get my final notes down. I really appreciate it.

To my replacement, good luck and don't listen to me because I probably don't know shit. Don't listen to anyone else, either, and be your own rockstar.


~ Hugs. Hope you will be well, Prism. Keep in touch! ~
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Post Post #2595 (isolation #49) » Thu May 11, 2017 1:58 pm

Post by Prism »

I actually just realized I fucked up and this isn't going to help but my read on Fire should be flipped, but that's fine as I said I've been pretty frantic in trying to put forth the last minute effort.
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Post Post #4704 (isolation #50) » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:09 pm

Post by Prism »

I really thought we were fucked, 0 chance, then post Desp-lynch I thought we had a chance but it was still a huge uphill.

Then I counted the lynches again and realized SAD
just might
be able to make it.

And make it he did. What a hardcarry.

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