I'm going to read and catch up on the 33 pages of nonsense this thread is likely to be and then throw my hands up in exasperation before claiming I've got no results. Gimme a day or two.
Mini Normal 1908 - In The Web (Game Over)
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RayFrost Survivor
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I have problems with gamma and don't really support an ircher lynch, more news at 11 (literally 11 pm, JST - 6 hours from how). Busy working and I fell asleep last night while finishing my catchup read, so yeah.
Idk current vote count, but consider vote metaphorically on gammadon't you feel silly now?-
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I'm here, currently working on getting my post completely together. Finding posts I want to highlight and such, etc, etc.
I'm going to put it here that I absolutely abhor the overuse of meta andanyonewho attempts to ignore me by handwaving what I have to say and saying "but it's that person'smeta" will incur my wrath.
Someone having a meta of playing scummy is not an excuse to ignore scummy things they do. Do not positively reinforce bad play.
Mind you none of you have done that yet, but I want that out there now before I have to deal with "but I know this person and that's just what they do." I'm not having it.don't you feel silly now?-
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So, I'm here and am going to go into the Many Reasons Gamma Is Suspect.
This is going to be end up being a wall for all you "I don't read wall posts" people. We're probably not going to get along, stylistically. I willattemptto keep things concise. I hope you willattemptto read what I have to say. Don't worry, if you just can't handle reading my posts, I try to include a short-form conclusion at the end. If I don't, just ask for it.
GE's rather reactionary focus in this post bothers me:
When he gets a serious vote, he immediately says he suspects ircher but doesn't follow up with reasonsIn post 275, Gamma Emerald wrote:Can you explain this?
Also you are the one I suspect most out of the first five to vote me. The list goes like
TwoFace
Titus
BYF
Mort
Ircherora vote on him. Then he goes to vote transcend instead, never follows up on this, and later drops both the transcend and ircher reads without ever having made anyactualattempt to push them. If you suspect someone, the town thing to do is to pressure them.
Votes with no follow up are just lip service. And this is a consistent issue, which I'll point out a few more times later.
The chain of interaction that comes before this post by Mort is relevant, but Mort raises a good point here: GE is responding to a question about him but not toward him. This is a sign of over-defensiveness and shows another form of reactionary gameplay.In post 361, MortFeld wrote:
1. Answering a question not directed toward youIn post 360, Gamma Emerald wrote:So you blame me? For what exactly?
2. Being incorrect that the thing quoted answers the question
And also the fact that the question was about his read of you, and that you interject there is icky.
We see in this post here another case of GE posting suspicions:But there's no mention of MMM before this, and, if you look at the following posts, there is
nofollowup - no real scumhunting toward MMM to solidify this read or even show why this read exists.
I thought I'd keep going but honestly they're more of the same.
If you go through GE's postings, the votes are rarely outside of what other people are voting, his "reads" are either reasonless or could've been super easily copypasted from someone else. Without being questioned or pushed for reasons, GE has not actually given any this entire game. There are more contentless posts than contentful posts, with less content given the less talk about or to him there is.
The willingness to lynch anyone who isn't a townread is inherently a more pro-scum mindset as anyone thatisn'tscum is a good death. You might also note that GE said he wastownreading the fitz slotbut thenkept his vote and requested a claim. The only motivation to do this is to reveal Fitz's role while it's a free option. If you're town, you push against lynching a townread and try to not get the townread to reveal their role. You don't force them to claim then jump off when you were already townreading the person.
Nothing GE has done this game has been actual scumhunting. It's all lip service and self-serving behavior.
Vote: Gamma Emeralddon't you feel silly now?-
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If you guys want my reads on other people, I can give them (with reasons), but my priority is lynching the person I think is most likely to be scum.
I will say that I heavily disagree with an Ircher wagon / lynch in no small part due to the fact that GE is a person on the wagon. But aside from that, I've felt that ircher has actually put efforts toward scumhunting and has had fairly respectable posting overall.
While I understand the transcend wagon's origins and don't completely disagree with it, I personally find transcend's nonsense is inscrutable and that whemestar's existence in this game is too short for me to make a judgment. I'll take it if I'm forced to by deadline, but I'm not happy.don't you feel silly now?-
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Yes.
Have you actually ever said why you suspected MMM or why you dropped that suspicion?
Have you actually explained why, while you were townreading fitz, you kept your vote on the wagon and demanded a claim?
Have you actually pushed and done scumhunting and followup on the scumreads you claim to have that happen to already be pushed by other people?don't you feel silly now?-
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Looking back I misread pronoun usage in a couple posts (#979 and related) that made me misread you saying you had a townread on fitz when it was about someone else.
One point retracted. Still not my biggest issue, which is your lack of scumhunting this game and lack of follow through.
Your content providing has in vast majority been reactionary, and the fact you're "intending" to case your biggest scumreads SoonTM when you just haven't bothered for some reason this entire time until now doesn't really help the cause.
You haven't made any cases till now.
I bring up a lack of cases and suddenly it was your plan to do so all along.
Why the change in style?don't you feel silly now?-
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Why does it take someone pressuring you for the cases for you to feel motivated?
It's natural town behavior to argue for and push for the lynch of people you suspect. The motivation is in serving the purpose of getting the bad guys.
It's natural scum behavior to not argue for it and let other people do the work for you. There's no motivation because to speak more is to reveal more and stand out, which increases your risk.don't you feel silly now?-
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Accusing you of feeling the need to become active to avoid being seen as scum because people are saying the scum are complacent would be silly.
Accusing you of having been complacent this entire game unless people pushed you to be active, which is scummy because scum like to be complacent is in line with what I said originally about your play.
To which your reply is essentially "yes, but I'm not scum."
We'll have to agree to disagree.don't you feel silly now?-
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Consolidation is the deadline compromise. There is nothing wrong with being spread out in opinions and getting our actual beliefs out before compromising.
The easiest way to give scum a free pass is to just argue that we should compromise, not make people argue who theyreallythink is scum, and force the false dichotomy of "a or b"don't you feel silly now?-
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While you're here, can you tell me what your thoughts are regarding what I've pointed out regarding GE?
Talking about your feelings is great and I hope we can do that more and develop a friendship as this game progresses, but there are important matters to discuss as deadline looms.
I'm hungry, so I'll go eat food and come back. There's a really nice curry place around the corner where they serve curry + naan bread for like 6 dollars (well, 600 JPY, but still)don't you feel silly now?-
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I live in Nagoya.In post 1743, PenguinPower wrote:Where in Japan? I have family in Akatsuka.don't you feel silly now?-
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If you don't want to get lynched for seeming like mafia (aka playing badly), learn how to seem like town (aka play better). Harsh? Yes. True? Yes.In post 1748, Kelvin Smith wrote:Sure, that's a great policy, in theory. In practice, it means you mislynch people because they have a suboptimal playstyle.
Are you going to follow up on this or is this a one-off comment?In post 1750, Kelvin Smith wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure of that...In post 1729, MortFeld wrote:Ray is town?
Do you have anything to actually say about what I said RE: Gamma Emerald?
P-edit: I see you saying you don't feel good about me and are worried about the game falling into my pace.
Is your distrust of me caused by the fact I'm being assertive or by the fact that my posting is actuallysuspiciousin some way? Question me if you have questions.don't you feel silly now?-
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While I appreciate you and other people reading me as more town, I don't care about that nearly as much as I care about what you actually have to say about what I said about Gamma Emerald.In post 1746, Ircher wrote:RayFrost's posting currently is making me feel better about the slot.
And the interaction between me and him that happened after.
Give me actualthoughts.
P-edit: Gamma, I had read through page like 30 when I made that comment about having a scum read on you. And I felt suspicious of you as far back as page like... 10? So yeah.don't you feel silly now?-
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MM4 are you actually going to reply to the content that I posted or are you just going to lazily discredit it as completely unindicative of my alignment because I'm "not new" and therefore nothing I do is really believable because oh man it could all just be a tricksy skillful play and therefore not even something that you need to give a real response todon't you feel silly now?-
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Because, from the way I see, what you're doing right now is going "RayFrost posted actual scumhunting content and this actually makes me feel okay about lynching him because he's good enough to do that regardless of alignment"
Someone is being productive and your response is "yeah seems like an okay lynch"
All this mutter from you and kelvin about "it's so suspicious how convincing rayfrost is" bothers me significantly. Because it's anonsenseargument. "Charismatic" is not an adjective that has an alignment.
If I knew you guys were scum, I could quote your behavior here as the perfect example of "scum trying their best to discredit someone town without actually trying to push the case because they don't have anything to work with"don't you feel silly now?-
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Can you point out the things I've said that are a repeat of something someone else has said?In post 1762, Kelvin Smith wrote: I wasn't particularly planning on it, but I guess I might as well. You're giving me a bad vibe. The things you are saying aren't that different from what other people have said, but they feel much more calculated and predatory.
Okay. How is he an easy target? What about this is favorable to me over taking the easy path of pushing the current highest wagon (the one on whemestar) to completion? Several people have expressed town-reads on Gamma Emerald, there have been almost no people that actuallyLink and the Tripony of Courage wrote:
Yeah, I think it felt like an opportunistic attack on a player that you perceive as an easy target.In post 1757, RayFrost wrote:Do you have anything to actually say about what I said RE: Gamma Emerald?opposethe whemestar lynch so much as preferring a different one.
What about my posting makes you think my charismatic nature is indicative of me being scum rather than town? Or is my charisma completely separate and just a fact that accompanies your belief that I'm scum?Master Horn, a unicorn to the past wrote:Nah, being assertive isn't the issue. It's that the content of your posts feels super sketchy. I mean, it's obviously just my own perspective, but my interaction with Gamma felt pretty genuine and I got a strong feeling of town-mindedness from him. You instead chose to pick on it as only being active when pressured. Admittedly, that was my read on him at first, but seeing his posts now, I just don't see it. My intuition tells me that he's town and you are predatory scum. But I'm grounded enough to know that my intuition can be wrong, so I'd rather that you were watched and everyone be put on their guard, rather than outright lynching you here.
I've seen charismatic scum. I'vebeencharismatic scum. That's what you strike me as right now, so I think it would dangerous to let the town fall into your pace. And I had to say it because with you around, I'm much more worried about dying at night.
Are you saying that you thought the same things I did and then changed your mind seeing his responsesafterwhat I posted?
And why would my being in the game make you feel worried about dying at night? You've been overly focused on the night phase and the shots that are going to go down and trying to control what happens there. Just stop. Every post you make about this does nothing to serve the town. It is incredibly anti-town to be vocally expressing your thoughts re: the night game as it gives more information to the informed minority (scum) than it does to the uninformed majority (town).don't you feel silly now?-
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Since you kids all want to do meta reads, I should point out that I have a slightly out of date wiki page about me that was at one point managed by someone who made an account named RayFrostWikiManager.
I will present to you the two best scum games I have ever played, by my reckoning. Both of them losses, by the way.
Exhibit A
Exhibit B
I don't have any stellar town play to reference, in my opinion.
Note that I'm a far calmer and mature person than I was 6 years ago. And I also have not played a game of mafia in a long time because the last time I did I had the fun of having literally every single one of my reads get shot down by everyone in the game with the excuse of "it's their meta, so you're wrong." One might imagine how demotivating that is.don't you feel silly now?-
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Not finding it convincing and therefore not voting with me's not a problem to me. Acceptable difference of perspective.In post 1772, Kelvin Smith wrote:
That's not what I said. Your argument isn't convincing to me and that's my whole point. If I thought it was a sound argument, regardless of my alignment, I'd be voting Gamma right now. I don't, so I'm not. And furthermore, I never said that charismatic is an adjective that has an alignment. I'm saying you read like charismatic scum to me, as opposed to charismatic town.In post 1770, RayFrost wrote:All this mutter from you and kelvin about "it's so suspicious how convincing rayfrost is" bothers me significantly. Because it's anonsenseargument. "Charismatic" is not an adjective that has an alignment.
If I were mad, perhaps so.Zelda, the pony flute wrote:
Funny, because if I knew you were scum, I could quote your behavior here as the perfect example of "scum getting mad about 'getting caught for the wrong reason.'"In post 1770, RayFrost wrote:If I knew you guys were scum, I could quote your behavior here as the perfect example of "scum trying their best to discredit someone town without actually trying to push the case because they don't have anything to work with"
Also, what would you call it if you knew Mario or I were town?
In mario's case, I'd call it lazily copying you.
In your case, I'd call it believing someone that has a differing opinion is suspicious because their opinion differs - I think Gamma's scum for the reasons above, you think he's town and disagree about what the things I noted mean. So I'm suspicious for arguing he's scum based off of reasons you don't think are valid.don't you feel silly now?-
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Then what exactly is the purpose of saying "oh anybody can post content like that!" and not actually giving anyIn post 1773, MarioManiac4 wrote:im not discrediting crap lmaorealthoughts about it? Like saying you disagree or that you agree or that you find point A worth noticing but point B not so much or, or, ordon't you feel silly now?-
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My meta comment was more aimed at people not-you, kelvin.
A la this post and other posts people have done through the thread in meta-related stuff:
In post 1768, MarioManiac4 wrote:
no but pretty much every non-newbie can post content like thatIn post 1767, Gamma Emerald wrote:Have you seen RF play?
what i'm trying to say is that after thinking about it grey wasn't really all that town + you're all getting ahead of yourselves with the frost readdon't you feel silly now?-
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MM4, they quite clearly have a reason for believing that I am more likely to be a town now than I was before: my posting feels towny to them.
The main thing that I want to know is whatyou actually think about it. What are yourthoughtsabout what I've posted?
So far, you've not actually replied to the content of what I've said. Do you disagree with the case I've posted? Do you agree with it? Are you okay with it but feel other things are better / more convincing / etc?
Throw me a freaking bone.don't you feel silly now?-
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Anything relating to your death is a bad post from your perspective.
Mainly right now, I want actual replies to the thread from people who have promised replies (mortfeld, for example) and for twoface, havingfitz, and tarkus to come back and say something. Without input from four people, I'm missing a lot of information that I want.
But I can't magic them back into the game, so.don't you feel silly now?-
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In post 1717, RayFrost wrote: While I understand the transcend wagon's origins and don't completely disagree with it, I personally find transcend's nonsense is inscrutable and that whemestar's existence in this game is too short for me to make a judgment. I'll take it if I'm forced to by deadline, but I'm not happy.don't you feel silly now?-
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Which is unfortunate, but compromise wagons happen.
Though I looked over the ruleset of the game and there's not actually any mention of what happens at deadline without a majority.
Mod:It may be beneficial to include a mention of "at deadline, x happens"
Thanks. I will include that in the next VCLast edited by ThinkBig on Mon May 15, 2017 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.don't you feel silly now?-
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I'm going to sleep now and have no idea if anybody will be present to hammer, so I'm going to go ahead and do it as a preventative measure. Twoface, take the night time to catch up. I'd argue why GE is a better lynch over wheme if we had more time etc etc but we don't.
Vote: Whemestardon't you feel silly now?-
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I'd like to start by going ahead with this:Vote: BigYoshiFan
I'd like to state that I currently have atownreadon Gamma. And I never really had a scumread on him. His reaction to my accusations on day 1 was quite towny (which brought him from null to town), and the reactions of other players around those accusations were more suspect. My main motivation for pushing him was that I had felt it was highly unlikely a wagon would actually shift to him (I didn't want more claims, really) and it was highly likely people would be willing to discuss it (other pushes felt less likely to get any substance from the others). Sorry to Gamma. You were a good choice for this. Nothing personal.
Now, the reactions of two players in particular bothered me: Ircher and BigYoshiFan. I'm fine with voting either one this game phase. I'd need to go back through to link to specific posts for BigYoshiFan, but here's the basic breakdown for both reads:
BigYoshiFan - his ~scumread~ on titus and his reactions around her were very much of the omgus variety in that it could be boiled down to "titus' reasoning for suspecting me is bad so titus is suspect" - his suspicion of titus is artificial at best and is a reaction, not individually spawned. This can be seen by his reaction to people townreading the titus slot as well.
A lot of BigYoshiFan's sources of suspicion can be summed up with "what this person did didn't feel genuine" - there's no way to really poke at this reasoning. And it's not wrong in and of itself. But when it's the reason for most of your reads, it becomes an excuse rather than a reason. He also puts mild efforts to express a townread of Ircher in reaction to people suspecting him. Mind you, associative tells before a flip aren't the best to go off of, but it's a point for why ircher's number two.
Additionally, his reaction to my case against Gamma was "I promise more later, but it's intriguing" with nothing given later. Intriguing and interesting are two words with very similar uses: you say them and it can mean anything you want. Also note BigYoshiFan never shows any suspicion of Gamma prior to or after that post.
Ircher - Associative tells with BigYoshiFan are the main reason, to be honest. If you look through their interactions and the flow of their reads, there's a lot of them matching up in reads / supporting each other's cases and not a lot of actual direct interaction between them. It's indirect. Agreement, with little conflict of reads (or apparently not enough to converse with each other about their differences for some reason).
The stuff from today that has been mentioned could be included as well, but that's been covered.
I'd also like to make a premature claim because I can. I'm atwo shot gunsmith, and I've used both shots on players that I couldn't get a good read on. One is MarioManiac4, the other is Penguin Power. Neither of them have guns. I'm making this claim now because the playerlist is small enough that having these results (especially since I can't get any more) out is beneficial given we don't know how many members of the scumteam there are. If you are a role with limited shots that is investigative and you've used them, I would suggest claiming now.don't you feel silly now?-
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Oh, hello there.In post 2150, Priscila wrote:
Hi.In post 2083, RayFrost wrote:I'm going to need to catch up and sort my thoughts, which I'll be doing tomorrow. I am too busy today to be available to spend enough time on this.don't you feel silly now?-
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I live in Japan, it's currently evening here and I'm hanging out with friends of mine / talking about work for tomorrow with someone / etc. I'm sorry if my responses aren't ~timely~ enough for you.
My response was typed immediately after reading your post. You can take my word for that or not, I don't care. This post is also typed immediately after reading your complaints. Take my word for that or not, I don't care.
It's not how it was phrased - I stated that clearly with my response. I changed the phrasing because I didn't want to toe the gray line of quoting mod information, also clearly stated in my response.
It's completely outside the bounds of playing within the game to be asking about the precise phrasing of moderator given information in any standard game, and I very much dislike your attempts at doing so for reasons that I could go into but they're not game related and this debate probably would not be healthy to the game state.don't you feel silly now?-
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RayFrost Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 10769
- Joined: August 2, 2009
- Location: Japan
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RayFrost Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 10769
- Joined: August 2, 2009
- Location: Japan
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RayFrost Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 10769
- Joined: August 2, 2009
- Location: Japan