Mini Normal 1929 - Game Over

[LlamaFluff]

@Vedith - One chance. Is the claim real - yes or no? If yes there is a borderline game breaking tactic here.

[LlamaFluff]

@Vedith - One chance. Is the claim real - yes or no? If yes there is a borderline game breaking tactic here.

Llama! \o/
Can you advise which exact claim you mean?

The one that can be close to game breaking. The day-sensor one.

[LlamaFluff]

The one that can be close to game breaking. The day-sensor one.

Oh, not the Day 2 IC 3 shot sensor?

The one with results. Stalling shouldn't be happening here.

Real claim with results. Yes or no.

[LlamaFluff]

It's actually zero.
So Carca, Chilly and Alban are all confirmed town.

Vote Vedith

[LlamaFluff]

More than fine with my vote. At best Vedith is playing intentionally anti-town as town and refusing to actually do anything productive. At worst and more likely he is scum who is attempting to semi-troll the game while still oversaturating it with uncertainty regarding his claim to such an extent that he can control the lynch from afar.

AUN and Carcallily are excellent picks for potential partners.

Real town block moving forward is myself, WM, Io and Tchill. MM is honorary borderline member.

[LlamaFluff]

I think we should find out vedith's real claim the old fashioned way now.

or we could just accept that he retracted?

See if he stayed with his claim, he is 100% the correct lynch just based on strategy as we essentially manage to force all of the remaining scum kills if he is town or we get rid of scum. As he is backing off, he is still the lynch but now just because he is scum instead of being a policy lynch based on results of what he claimed.

[LlamaFluff]

I tried to push a lynch with an innocent result.

Yep. You tried to force the entire game in the direction of AUN, WM and Scorpious based off a fake claim which essentially eliminated three players from the pool until it finally got shut down multiple pages later after you spent a deal of time trying to figure out if you should stick with it or not.

Basically everything Vedith has done, and continues to do is at best anti-town and poor play. Even now he continues to make assumptions about who will be alive and that flips will not have any bearing on what future day reads will have, which is something that scum do far more often than town because they know what flips will be before they occur and can control night kills.

[LlamaFluff]

where?

pedit: I'm willing to consider Vedith as a lynch and I will think about that in the morning when I am more capable of critical thought, but Steel reccomended lynching him to reveal if his claim is true when he has retracted his claim.

I realize it doesn't come through, but that was annoyance. I do have half a mind to lynch him out of spite now for all the time I wasted researching that claim, though logically I still can't put that much scum motivation to him making everyone hate him either.

Who hates him for it though? It was almost for sure fake out the gate because as previously noted he should have been snap-lynched because of it if it was real. If he is town or scum he didn't have the ability to read that it was essentially a suicidal claim.

Most people don't seem to care, or have started dismissing him to the extent that they really don't care what he does. Being ignored may not be a typical tactic that is taken, but if you can be read as "just ignore them" until later in the game, that can be a viable tactic if you are unable to successfully pull off more typical scum game approaches. A large amount of the game still seems to like him more than not, even after the claim has been heavily disproven.

@AUN - Carcllily is my strongest scum read if you entirely ignore everything going on with Vedith. Passive reads for the most part mixed with an approach to the Vedith claim where they seem to want to defend them, but are never able to present a good reason to do such. That is the type of approach that scum who got "cleared" either by scum OR town faking a claim would most want to take as they have a free pass to do whatever. Especially seeming to attack MM for pushing on Vedith post claim (which that push IS the correct town reaction) they are a great pick for scum here. If Vedith is scum, it just makes the read that much stronger.

[LlamaFluff]

self

Quick question - is Self-meta a scumtell to you?

[LlamaFluff]

When I'm scum I usually just focus on when someone mentions me or my scumpartner, and not care about the rest of the game. ^

self

Quick question - is Self-meta a scumtell to you?

I can see scum using it more than town.

I still prefer Vedith but have increasingly no problem with Carcalilly lynch happening. What they have done this game almost perfectly describes their scum self-meta.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh wow, I might have called two scum right here.

When you say "passive reads" do you mean that Carca's reads are lazy or that you have a gut read?

The read is very lazy. Most of the "reasoning" doesn't match up to what Carcalilly is doing throughout the day, and she wasn't even voting MM until they were called out on it.

I'm fairly confident based on 332 that Carca didn't believe Vedith's claim. Can you please provide evidence that she believed the claim? Otherwise it doesn't make sense for her to feel "cleared."

And that's not how I read her attack on Mario. Wasn't Mario's push on Vedith because he was making Pokemon puns? So not serious? And Carca's scumread on him for completely separate reasons?

When Vedith said "zero scum" Carcalilly pivoted off of an alban scum read (who was "cleared") a bit, and no disbelief was every expressed at any point. Trying to read interactions between multiple spam/low content/troll-ish players is hard, but I think the claim completely caught Carcalilly offguard to the point where regardless of town they just got confused and backed off of everything.

The push on Mario is bad for a few reasons

1) It has no reasoning assigned past page twelve, half a game ago, and there is no real push of it. Ever.
2) Carcalilly had a vote on the wrong player for a majority of the game. Almost immediately after their "Case" ends, they are voting Vedith. Its not until MM points out that the vote is in the wrong point that Carcallilly moves to where they claim to have a scum read on.

This is not town who is hunting scum. This is scum going through the motions and forgetting where their own vote is because they are not paying attention to what is happening and what they are supposed to be doing.

Remember that Carcalilly self-meta though? Where they stay quiet as scum until either them or a partner is attacked? Guess what happened right before they remembered that MM was scum to them and that is where their vote should be? MM voted Vedith.

[LlamaFluff]

Can we be careful not to quick lynch please and thank you.

[LlamaFluff]

Both Vedith and Carcalillly are just different types of scummy.

Vedith is the "intentionally useless - adding clutter" type scum, who has done next to nothing but when they do actually start trying to play are really scummy for the most part, but with the amount of spam they add can essentially shrug off anything as a joke.

Carcalilly just seems to be detached from the game while still adding the "joking around" excuse to most of their stuff. For example they are voting alban, who apparently they thought was scum until the "fake claim" where they moved away and then forgot about moving away... and now two thirds of the way through day one are ready to "start taking things seriously".

Still think that Vedith is a slightly better lynch. Basically all they have done that shows any type of read is the joke claim, where they called a few played "confirmed town" and opened up a lynch pool without any sort of reasoning and followed through with it for enough time that it cant have been a joke that they were his scum reads. Trying to say things like "just trust me" and other statements along those lines do nothing to explain a read and at most can be reaction tests on others (but I somehow doubt there was that level of intent even if he is town). While I think most players would immediately see the claim as a joke, the fact that it was continued for so long still bothers me as there are a lot of newer players who might not be able to piece that together immediately.

Now he comes in with the Carcalilly vote late, when he basically ignored the role until I showed up and voted Vedith. First mention of them being scum since literally joke phases of the game, with no reason. It takes me starting to come down on Carcalilly before the vote shows up there.

@Carcalilly - Vedith read?
@alban - You haven't moved your vote in a long time. Still happy with it?
@MM - You aren't voting either major wagon. Basic thoughts on both?

Few other thoughts:

If Vedith or any of the players he notes as "cleared" are scum, I think Scorpious gains town points for recent posts.
One thing that is REALLY bugging me is that a lot of players seem to assume three scum. In 11P games it is very rare for there to be more than two scum. If we get to a F3 at any point, someone go back and read early thoughts to see who was implying three scum and give minor town/scum points accordingly.

[LlamaFluff]

So can we really just lynch Vedith? I somewhat trust that regardless of alignment Carcalilly will eventually produce some sort of reads and tells, Vedith is just backed into a corner and spouting WIFOM and trolling. What is the absolute best case with respect to Vedith here? Town that cant be trusted to contribute or make a pro-town move in the future?

Also, I initially didn't like Llama's statement about Scorpious either, but it's actually really smart - if Scorpious is scum with Vedith or one of Vedith's "clears," he knows for sure that the claim is a lie. And his posts really look like an inexperienced player who was caught off guard by the claim and feel for it. Does that make sense? That said, I agree that his play has been generally scummy.

Basically this. While I am not entirely sure if it was faked or not, scum would instantly know something is up if any of those four players is scum. If the exceedingly off chance that all are town though, while they may not know the correct approach moving forward they would know that something is wrong. Its a whole lot of WIFOM though as you have to start getting into theory of if players could intentionally present an ignorant approach to setup when they have additional information. Its basically a weaker version of the "player who forgets the open setup is town" tell.

It of course IS possible for it to be an 8:3 setup, but for that to happen you would need a very weak scum team and a stacked town. In the end you can balance it, but you are going to have a very swingy setup and its just not recommended.

[LlamaFluff]

If we can get Vedith to claim before Monday when I go back to being at the office and not having access for about 12 hours a day that would be great. This guy is doing NOTHING but just trolling at this point. Still have no idea why they are voting Carcalilly because they did that before I started outlining that case, so it cant be sheeping my logic.

@Vedith - How many closed setups have you ran?

[LlamaFluff]

Sweet Celestia he isn't even taking my "maybe if he answers this there is an off-chance he is town" outs.

Yes, scum don't know the traitor, but they know there is a traitor, and you said "the scum team don't know there's a traitor"

In Normal games?

Its a mod call.

Normally the scum is not informed there is a traitor but they are able to figure it out within a few days of play due to balance issues. If the mod wants to inform scum of a traitor though, its still normal but just not typical. Same with cop results, recruitment ability, traitor losing if both mafia die, etc. The most common variant is "scum not told" but multiple exist, and all can appear in this game if that is how it was balanced.

The fact that a completely inexperienced mod jump immediately at "traitor" over "strong town, 3 goon" or "2 scum" is also really odd. My first instinct in an 11P game until given contrary evidence is not traitor.

Still though:

Vedith is not contributing
Vedith is not giving any reasoning behind the vote of Carcalilly
Vedith is scum

@MM - Vote Vedith. How is trolling when getting ran up and the extent of his reads being "I can read Carcalilly well" after ignoring them/calling them town for the majority of the game ever equate to anything but scum?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm 99% sure Vedith isn't trolling here.

Then why isn't he giving reasoning for read he never really even mentioned until I replaced in and started putting pressure on him?

[LlamaFluff]

that's just vedith really. i get the idea he wants to push the wagon further before making a case or just doesn't want to build a case for a read that can't really be cased (i.e tone read- if they were experienced w/ each other vedith could tell if something was off) but you'd have to ask him.

But it cant be a real meta read. The timing of it doesn't make any sense as the move to Carcalilly seems directly correlated with the timing of me pushing him for the fake claim and not due to anything that was done to trigger a shift in reads. If something was done, he is either unwilling or unable to describe what it is, and is now just blindly trying to shove meta in our faces when there was zero mention of anything being off until some pressure was applied to him instead.

[LlamaFluff]

Vedith why did you put carcalilly in your conf town then come out and say you think she's scum? What changed?

I wanted to see how she reacted. I didn't like it but wanted to carry it on for a bit.

Examples are..... ???

[LlamaFluff]

Examples are..... ???

Are what?

You say Carcalilly reacted badly. What are those reactions and why are they bad? Also why did you not vote her until I voted you?

[LlamaFluff]

You guys don't know my town game yet :/

Why are you not voting Vedith?

[LlamaFluff]

WELL then....

I want to see a vote count but that was all sorts of bad.

[LlamaFluff]

My read has changed since then :/

How/Why...

Can we just assume from here on out that when anyone has a read change in a couple page timespan in some situation like this I will be asking how/why to save time?

[LlamaFluff]

Aight.... flattery will get you everywhere with me but I need to step back and think on this one.

@Carclilly - Why did you move to alban? Does what I said change that read at all?

[LlamaFluff]

@Vedith/Carcalilly - Please give me a bullet point case on each other. No links. Just a very brief couple hundred word case that does not reference things that other players have said for ease of access for the rest of us.

I just want something that I can clearly point to and say X thinks Y is scum because of <reasons> because you both seem to be mostly using things that others are saying. Even if that is the case, reword it to reflect what you are thinking.

[LlamaFluff]

L-1

Claim should happen.

[LlamaFluff]

In that case hammer should happen.

Scummy player who refuses to back up reads, at best is playing intentionally anti-town, unwilling to cooperate or claim.

This is basically the perfect D1 lynch. He could flip town and our win odds probably go up.

[LlamaFluff]

First things first: I joined this game partly because Io was obvious town, and I expect to be treated as such.

lol no... like massively no.

Not with those flips. Vedith was an excellent borderline policy lynch I would do again in an instant but with the scum flip it makes things interesting since those were the top wagons.

Need to reread a bit. Probably in AUN/Io but want to make sure.

[LlamaFluff]

I can see this coming from villa because usually villa first reaction to me declaring myself conftown is to push back even though it's NAI/towny for me.

Cool. More self-meta.

The part about the policy lynch is a little scummy imo because it's already looking like you are subtly trying to give an excuse for your behavior on Vedith. nobody really brought it up, or gave you heat, so why are you already trying to rationalize it?

I have zero problem saying Vedith was in part a policy lynch. If a player is publicly going to be a nuisance and toe the line of being useless in a game I will always be on board to lynch them unless they are blindly obvious town. Worst case you lose a liability, best case scum dies. Statement is essentially a "see this is why we don't troll, lets play the game" comment.

Io was a good scum chance after the flips because of:

Except I said I would only vote Carca is Verdith was scum because the case of Carca being scum on her own is not very strong at all in my opinion.

Their entire stance leading up to the end of the day was "Vedith is scum and Carcalilly with him" but also that if Vedith was town, he could immediately drop the case on Carcalilly.

The only reason im not already voting there is because I read the whole "I hate playing with Vedith" tone that I was feeling all of the first day. Its genuine, just not as sure if scum would be too likely to make that statement genuinely.

Contains the stuff that's sort of giving like "here is some arguements for Vedith, here is for Carc" etc, and combined with the fact that they made that case on Carc and then ended up voting Vedith is bad.

Why wouldn't I make a case on Carcalilly? I was explicitly asked by AUN as to why I thought they were also scum after stating that I thought Vedith was more likely scum but Carcalilly was a great partner pick. The entire wagon on them started because AUN pushed back on my scum read there and I defended it. That's why Io and AUN are my preferred picks.

And explain 74

714

EBWOP

Both were cross voting while refusing to explain reads in a way that had any sort of merits (Carcalilly was sheeping me, Vedith was something like "shut up im right"). Sometimes when dealing with players who don't really give much information you just have to be blunt and sometimes they actually start responding.

[LlamaFluff]

And on a similar point @llama- basically, you've reiterated that you had scumreads on Vedith/policy on Vedith and Carca too, etc, but my point is mostly that you made this big stuff on Carca and then your vote basically wasn't there when it mattered and instead you opted for your policy, and that in my experience it's very often for scum to try and hedge and try to seem like they are weighing all options then choose to vote the person not their partners in the end. There's very little you can say to try to change my mind about this, although I would like to continue to hear your thoughts. (And the strawman dosen't help)

I am very pro-policy lynch. That is not at all a secret. The site needs to me more willing to policy lynch players who act like Vedith did this game.

Not even sure what you want me to say. I made my case on Vedith as what little content he had was scummy. I defended attacks on my reads that Carcalilly was scum independently of Vedith and worked even better as a artner. I got my top scum read lynched when he outwardly refused to start giving reads or doing anything else productive.

First: A serious question. Do you scumread self meta, or are you just saying that as a buzzword?

Unprompted and used defensively, self-meta is a scum tell. Its funny especially in this game since we already saw scum using it as a defense. If its theory discussion its null.

[LlamaFluff]

First you all still post way too much. Lots of players on this site have day jobs and essentially have zero access for half the day. If it really needs to be said I will never post from about 7-6 PST because I have a desk job, I can at times read from work, but posting is one of those "extreme emergency only" things. I thought after we got rid of two major offenders for not realizing that during the first cycle it would help, apparently not.

More so though:

Vote Mulch

Few things basically

1) He is far more concerned about people thinking they are town than actually pushing for scum early. Especially after I call them one of my top picks for scum early in the day. Not getting lynched is the first priority of scum. Pushing for lynches is the first priority of town.

2) Massive hypocrisy throughout his posts. He says I am scum for hedging my bet (after essentially bringing my "partner" from no votes to a top wagon) but after trying to argue against players calling me town, he doesn't vote me and expresses frustration at people who are. He attacks alban for saying that the tone for Carcalilly was natural and its something that can be faked, and then start basing reads (town and scum) on others based of their tone.

Most of it lies with Io though. If he really thought he was replacing into a town slot that must have been a great reaction when he got that PM. First look at the Carcalilly and Io interactions. There is basically none but we get some gems such as Carcalilly calling Io town and then being unable to really provide a reason for it. This one is big though when you relate it to later posts

That self meta tho

You know, while I don't really like it when people self meta what's the point of this?
I don't really see it as a scum tell which is what I think you are implying because I know there are people out their who genuinely believe that giving self meta can clear them as town.

Remember self-meta, Carcalilly was big on that one.

When I'm scum I usually just focus on when someone mentions me or my scumpartner, and not care about the rest of the game. ^

self

Quick question - is Self-meta a scumtell to you?

I can see scum using it more than town.

That was something that happened earlier. So of course Io is going to say something about it, especially as they were fence sitting for a long time before deciding that the only way Carcalilly was scum was if Vedith was scum right? Yeah that point went completely ignored.

Io also essentially did the same thing to Carcalilly in reverse, just said "yeah they are town" early on, and then when the case started being pushed on them, just latched onto interactions between Carcalilly and Vedith as a reason to push on Vedith, but also as a reason to denounce the Carcalilly wagon outside of a scum flip from Vedith (obviously something they would know isn't happening).

There are also quite a few things that are very out of place when trying to defend Carcalilly from the mounting pressure such as:

voting MM4 can easily be chalked up to being flustered which I don't see as a tell for either town or scum. It's just really not a solid case to say that she is scum for not voting MM4 when making a push on him.

Very odd to not bring up Io was also voting MM here. Its also not really calling Carcalilly town, or anything they did as a towntell, just trying to debunk a reason.

Even more interesting is how Io jumped on Vedith. After basically the entire game of zero interaction, sans a joke comment, Vedith gets brought up late and is actually slightly defended

Either way there is no reason to vote him [Vedith] for an obvious fake claim.

[/quote]

In fact, during the defense of Carcalilly post, Io is the first time she at all shows a read on Vedith as scum, and that is just a sheep of some of my logic. Most of the talk regarding him is "Unless they are scum Carcalilly is town" talk. Even more when the one point they are heavily sheeping me on is "they only add clutter and don't contribute" it seems odd that it took both him and Carcalilly being under immense pressure before Io acted on it. If you want to defend a scum partner though by sacrificing town, its a good time to jump into the fray.

I completely understand frustration with having to deal with a player like him. That should be obvious from my posts alone, but after ignoring Vedith and implying he is at very worst a null read and pressure on him is bad for a majority of the game, only to suddenly turn it around when him and a scum player starts nearing a lynch reads like scum who woke up and realized their partner would be dead if they didn't do something soon, and saw the better option trying to jump on a somewhat similar wagon "low content player who reads scummy" for a mislynch hoping that we equate the same thing with town the next day.

Mulch has all out of whack priorities for town and is being hypocritical to boot. Carcalilly ignored Io basically the entire game. Io put Carcalilly as a town read early and then when pressure mounted suddenly jumped on Vedith using him to shield attacks on Carcalilly.

I like this vote.

Also self-meta is absolutely a scum tell. It is overwhelmingly easy to fake meta, even most weak players can do it and could easily pull some out in their favor for any sort of situation. If you are explaining theory as to why you do something, that's a different story. Saying "yeah I always do X", especially if that is something people tend to read as scum, is definitely a scum tell.

[LlamaFluff]

OH FOR KRIFF SAKE I THOUGHT I HAD A HANDLE OF MULCH AND YOU JUST MURKED IT UP
Ok awaiting Mulch response

So did you have no Io read from day one?

[LlamaFluff]

I believe llama is deciding to scumread slots and then as an experienced player very easily casing them to serve that purpose, or in carcalilly's case distancing.

Why distance and put in efforts for it if I was scum and then not follow through? It seems pointless to bring a scum partner from no votes to exceedingly lynchable and then voting town over the wagon, because that results in people saying I am scum the next day.

Yeah I probably *could* come up with most players being scum if I really wanted to (which is why the alban push confuses me since I think that is almost the hardest case to force a scum read on), but I don't know how you want me to respond to something like that.

I think there is more back and forth in organic reads, more of a struggle. Here on mulch/io, but on vedith especially yesterday I got that impression as well.

Building reads is what cases are. I say player X is scum and give reasoning. They respond and I either adjust my read or continue to push if it doesn't change my mind. When you have people like Vedith who essentially refuse to respond, it doesn't change anything. I do not remotely take kindly to people who take joking around to the point where they are not playing the game.

Also please use the "preview" button people....

[LlamaFluff]

FYI that is not how real scumreads shoudl form, which is probably why you are failing in it so far. You should look at people and see scumyness and then scumread them, not scumread them and make cases afterwards...

1) You read posts
2) You think "Player X looks like scum"
3) You say so and vote the player with the reasons
4) They respond (or in some cases don't)
5) You reevaluate

Need to get stuff done but after what I can try to figure out from all the broken quote tags, I like my vote even more.

I mean obviously it's super hard to townread Llama and to not OMGUS them immediately when they make an hour long post on me, have been locked on me scum since day 1, haven't read my posts, and have confirmation bias up the wazoo, but unfortuantely some players are like that.

I don't even...

I explicitly called Io town for just about all of day one. I called Vedith, AUN and Caralilly scum. Today I said AUN is still a good scum pick, but due to flips you are better (lynching both probably ends the game). How is anything you are saying here true?

[LlamaFluff]

Its just the hypocritical stuff like this:

Awesome had absolute shit hedging at the end and their tone is fake as fuck

I sort of liked his tone and his thought process otherwise in the game though

"His tone appeared most natural" is something that is valid but also something that is REALLY easy for scum to fake.

Calls AUN scum for tone. Calls me townish for town. Then says calling a player town for tone is dumb because its easy to fake.

Tells only apply when he wants them to, and never to him.

Also even if Mario didn't vote Carcalilly... how is the only player that she ever voted that seemed to be serious apart from sheeping me late going to be scum? That alone makes Mario most town in the game to me. I don't see scum being silent on reads apart from calling their partner scum up until the day is essentially over.

You also need to re-check your Ctrl+F. There are a few posts near the end where Io started getting into "I would only vote Carcalilly if Vedith was scum" and then a snap turn from "voting Vedith over the claim is bad" to "he is cluttering the game and needs to be lynched"

[LlamaFluff]

Llama. What do you not understand. About tone being a valid way to read people but also something really easy for scum to fake? I don't understand why this can't go through your brain.

Because you invalidate anything you have based on tone right there.

"valid way to read someone" - fine if you buy that
"easy for scum to fake" - means that any tone reads are useless

Pocketing is not a term that is common here. I literally have never seen it in almost ten years. I think you are looking for "buddying" which is a really weak tell, especially that early in the game and with not much to gain from doing such. Its a more valid tell when you are directing it at a power player in a more pivotal point in the game, not near RVS stage.

I am pushing on Mario because I have zero idea how he is below WM, and I think its really easy to call him town above Steel. Are you trying to just aruge all three of those are obv-town to you?

Massclaim shouldn't happen with a vig flip. If there were other flips we could talk about it but never with that flip.

[LlamaFluff]

WHat is wrong that you can't understand that it's valid and also easy for scum to fake??????????

What is the logic gap here? What don't you understand? I am in shock here, what is not understand that goes through your brain that thinks these are mutually exclusive???

A valid tell is not something that can be easily faked. Its at best an exceedingly weak tell by your own logic, yet you mention to multiple times very early on. When you immediately undercut your own tell it becomes a joke tell like people trying to argue "over reaction"

Steel was the main person on Carca all game? Unless they hard bussed day 1 with possible 2 scum, I heavily doubt he's scum.

Sort of? He voted him for about 24 hours early in D1. Then moved to Scorpious. Then to Vedith. Then to me ater I pushed Vedith. Then to Carcalilly after I started pushing them.

Volume wise he didn't do much to push the wagon, even if he planted himself there most of the day.

[LlamaFluff]

This post is bad because it has no analysis and no solving and is just level one stuff, all that is easy for scum to fake. Which INCLUDES tone. Which is valid.

We don't disagree that tone is easy to fake. What we disagree with is that tone is actually anything you can use in a read. You have called people out as having fake tone and good tone, while stating that it is something that is very easy to fake. Saying something that is very easy to fake has anything to do with a read makes no sense. Its just kneecapping your own tell and it feels like filler instead of something you actually believe.

Also why are you voting alban over AUN? I still am confused about alban-scum reads and still have him in that middle pack.

[LlamaFluff]

I don't have time today but can someone go back and find any posts from players still alive that explicitly talked about three scum? It should be exceedingly obvious from the vig flip three scum cant be the case (just in case if it wasn't from 11P) and want to compare experience levels for people making a bad assumption.

[LlamaFluff]

Yay theory! This is really my favorite part of the game so there are a few reasons:

1) There are only eleven players. If it was 3:8 to start, town only has three mislynches. Town needs 50% lynch accuracy. Not happening unless pretty much everyone else who is town is an IC or all in a giant mason group or something like that.
2) Vigs are anti-town (trying to balance game wise). In normal games that include a vig, town win rate immediately drops and vig accuracy overall is worse than random. You would need a TON of power (again) to balance out that role. Additionally if D1 was a town lynch and N1 vig hit town, D2 is essentially mylo. If town mislynches and vig doesn't hit scum its over N2. Side note odd number of players. Reviewers would have taken into account that vig dying N1 without another way to stop a kill removes a lynch from town. Vig should *never* shoot if its likely that they change the game from odd to even numbers of players.
3) One more thing that I don't want to talk about before we massclaim because it could give scum pointers.

With all that, I think it has been exceedingly obvious that there are only two scum D1 just given the small number of players. When you add the flip, I see zero way there are three scum.

There are a lot of newer players in this game and three scum was discussed WAY too much to have it all be clever scum who thought ahead enough to fake setup speculation errors. I want to pick through who came up with a very incorrect assumption, and see what looks genuine and what doesn't.

@Scorp - MM4 is town. Stop that. Carcalilly who never did much proactive in pushing cases does not spend a majority of their effort pushing on their partner, especially again as there are only two scum here.

[LlamaFluff]

3) One more thing that I don't want to talk about before we massclaim because it could give scum pointers.

This is super Lamist and scummy, AGAIN.

Oh yes. Because telling scum what types of roles are almost out of the question to be in the game is a smart thing to do before massclaim.

Llama why do you still have your vote on me? Have you read my posts? Do you disagree with them? Why are you insisting on keeping your vote with me when I've answered all of your qualms to the point that you literally have no response to them? Why are you insisting on being so stubborn on the off chance of being a hero when even BEFORE I totally explained everything you had problems with you STILL were considering between me and someone else (i forget who). What the fuck? Stop tunneling and reconsider and admit your wrong

Still think you are scum. Remember, I work full time at the office so basically have time between getting home and before I am off for the night to post. Due to that, fewer very high content posts. Most of your responses have been "you are stupid stop tunneling" in response, so I don't really care about those because its just OMGUS, insults and threats. That makes you far MORE scum by itself because again, it seems your top priority in the game is not being lynched, bar none. Can probably get more done tomorrow because im trying to get into the office early and leave early to have more time to get posts together as tonight its basically just posts while cooking.

Also your response is very non-user friendly. Its just broken quotes. If you aren't going to put in any effort to make it legible it takes longer to respond. Preview button exists for a reason.

Llama explain your Alban townread, Scorpious explain your awesome townread

OMG are you willingly tunneling on everything I do, I never said that stop trying to imply anything that I do is scummy or needs to be questions. This hero tunneling stuff makes you more scum stop it or I will keep voting you.

Yeah... sarcasm aside I never did call him town. He is aggressively null for me and pretty much in the same camp as Scorp where if both you are AUN are town, then it probably turns into one of those two.

[LlamaFluff]

tl;dr

Mulch spends a full page of posting that he thinks the only way I could vote him is I am scum. So basically a full page of rage OMGUS, trying to threaten people, and declaring anyone who doesn't agree with anything he says is scummy.

Good few notes from that little meltdown though

1) Mulch acknowledges I am probably town, and is willing to "lose the game".... when the probably D4 lynch in his hypothetical is alban... who Mulch says is scum. Basically just bluster.
2) Apparently refusing to give scum info about what to/what not to fakeclaim is a scum tell. Nothing to do with time. Reasoning is quick. Logic is not something newbie scum will see.
3) When he is trying to be more threatening, its 3 scum. When he starts trying to get logical its 2 scum. Again pointless noise and bending the view of the game in multiple directions to benefit him as needed.
4) He actually stops caring about lynching scum halfway through his rant and its just trying to make me back down. His entire rant is just an attempt at self-preservation, not reads.

You should really stop spamming up the game. It basically leaves people like me who don't have unlimited time in a situation where the choices are to keep reading your post or go back and make big cases without sacrificing what little free time in a normal day is available.

[LlamaFluff]

Lets see if you can actually respond to stuff without ruining quote tags this time, because every time you do it takes an extra 30 minutes or so for me to fix everything and respond.

Wrong. I've been trying to find scum the entire game, and I also want to be considered town. You are wrong that only scum care about being townread, town and scum care about being townread. 99% of my posts are trying to find scum; you don't need to focus on that singular post in the beginning. I have doubts your reading everything I'm saying because I post a lot and you dislike that style of play.

Comes into the game and immediately says the should be obviously town. Gripes for almost 200 posts about me saying they are scum. Yeah that is obviously you spending all of your time scum hunting. Notice immediately he is trying to discredit anything I say as well by saying I am not reading it. I don't like reading this high noise to low content dreck, but I do because there are still tells in it.

The SCUM reaction to being called scum early is to ignore it and try to buddy the fuck up to you or call you out or shit. The TOWN reaction is to take offense and try to change it because they CARE. Scum try to seem like they don't care, town actually care. You NEED to realize this because you fucking made an entire wall post when I called you scum to defend as well, and once you have locked onto me as scum you haven't changed anything at all and havent commented on everything except to defend yourself from my attacks, which proves you care again. Man up and realize that your stereotypical scum tells are wrong.

So... WIFOM defense? Scum has one goal in the game - not getting lynched. Nothing else matters as long as one scum doesn't get lynched so more stock needs to be put into it. Ignoring pushes can be a tactic, discrediting pushes can be a tactic, threating people can be a tactic, making so much noise you drown out everyone else can be a tactic. Town has one goal in the game - get all the scum lynched. When you stop paying attention to the goal and focusing on staying alive (NOT part of town win condition) you are scum.

Tone is a fine reason to scumread someone but is also easily faked from scum. It's worth going into

Blah blah again. If something is easily faked its not a good tell....

In terms of the IO/Carca interactions, there are some valid points here. When I skimmed over it I saw some obvious pocketing instances from Carca onto IO, which I think you should look over. The one specific instances you brought up with self meta isn't actually something scummy imo.

So your best defense as to why the interaction is TvS is a basically RVS stage "town" post from Carcalilly direted at Io?

The vote hedging and choosing Vedith obviously looks scummy in hindsight but to be fair you did it too, and a lot of people did it, and all I can say is IO must have truly thought Vedith was more scummy than Carca.

Excellent to note here that Mulch is saying that I am scum for what even they say is the exact same thing Io did.

I don't have out of whack priorities, you have out of whack scumread techniques and I have NATURAL prioritizies, like I want to look like I am town. Every town wants that. YOU want that because you defend yourself. And self meta is not a scumtell. It just isn't.

Town wants to look town. Town does not melt down when they are read as scum. Also self-meta is absolutely a scum tell, this game already proved it.

[LlamaFluff]

1) and is willing to "lose the game"

This is another lie. Please show me where I said this.

You've in all likeihood lost us the game and are basically in effect FORCING me to vote you, and if we are bogth town we both go in the mislymches one after another and we fucking lose if there are 3 scum

There are eight alive. Two lynches and two NKs are four alive. If there are three scum, you say you are willing to lose the game over this. When you later start trying to argue you don't know how many scum there are, this is you saying you are willing to lose the game if you are town.

First off, town do not know that Alban is scum. Town SUSPECT that alban is scum. Do you think I know for 100% that Alban is scum?

Besides that, the point I was making about your scummyness had nothing to do with Alban. It was that you were already making pre flips and chaining lynches.

Oh so you were "making a point" about willing to go to lylo where your top read would be lynched out of principle.

How is me saying "if Mulch and AUN are town, its probably in alban/Scorp" any different then you making a read list where you literally put every lynch preference in order? I have three town reads. I have two scum reads. I have two players I don't have much of a read on.

This is a LIE. Tell me where I say this. A flat out LIE.

Once again, it's that you were being LAMIST that is scummy, not this. Again.

So you saying "this is a really bad post" means you have no read off of it? Really?

How the fuck are you sure if there are 2 scum or 3 scum? How are you that confident?

I would bet the entire game right now there are only two scum, its really basic balance, especially with the vig flip.

Why are you voting alban anyway? All I see from you seeming to call him the most town out of your initial block of three (lining up lynches zomg!) and then seem to sheep WM logic that alban left a vote on Vedth for too long and didn't take it off as the wagon blew up. When did he even pass AUN and why? You lead with saying AUN is a better lynch and then its "well I don't care alban is fine too" later. The most you ever explain that is "his responses are bad"... and basically leave it at that. You even are outwardly telling Scorp to look elsewhere at one point and trying to direct him off alban onto AUN.

And self-meta is not a scumtell, just because one person did it as scum, sweetie, does not mean that everyone does.

So you think someone responding to an attack of "I always do X as town" when what they are doing is inherently scummy is NOT a scum tell or at very least an "I am intentionally going to play anti-town guys" tell?

[LlamaFluff]

8 people. 1 scum. 7 town. We both go down, we go to LyLo. If 8 people, 2 scum, 6 town, we lose if we both go down. That's it. It's not hard, it's like first grade math.

You've in all likeihood lost us the game and are basically in effect FORCING me to vote you, and if we are bogth town we both go in the mislymches one after another

and we fucking lose if there are 3 scum

And if there are THREE scum in your hypothetical, (like you said, and I even bolded for you) it would be a loss (like you said). If there are TWO scum (like I said) it would not be a loss.

So yes. That is you blatantly saying that if there are three scum you would be willing to lose the game.

Because I'm not saying, hey let's lynch A, and if he flipps town, lynch B, then C! And then we win!

I'm saying I want to lynch A right now, and I don't have a lynch order set after (ie, pre flips), because I am FLUID and am willing to CHANGE

Mario, Steel, WhyMafia
[Everyone else]
[Llama]
Alb, Awesome, Scorpious

Your read list

Town: Mario, Steel, WM
Null: alban, Scorp
Scum: Mulch, AUN

My read list

Boy that formatting sure looks similar doesn't it.

I said you were scummy. You were scummy. What are you even saying

I said there is another reason there are obviously two scum but don't want to talk about it until after a masslcaim. You are saying that is me trying to look town so it is scummy. Therefore talking about a reason that shouldn't be talked about until after massclaim is scummy. No?

Also how is the only big point on alban being ignored? Even what Mulch just said misses probably the biggest point and is why alban would be my #3. If anything THIS is why he is scum, nothing that you are trying to shove.

After writing this though, I think maybe there's no harm in giving out a reads list. Here goes. Word of caution: this is pretty impressionistic. I will fine tune or even do a complete overhaul once I re-read and form some solid opinions. Till then:
---
Vedith
Carcalilly

Carca, some defence will be welcome.
No hammering before Carca speaks.

What a bunch of losers.
Why hammer over a weekend you morons?

Yeah and 5 more people including my rv stayed on someone so obvious town. On my part, it was simply laziness. Plus I didn't visit the page over the weekend. So, didn't see the tally building up.

Vedit/Carcalilly top two reads to "let Carclilly defend (implying claim too)" to "how dare you hammer (what was their top read 24 hours prior)" to "alban was my RV"

Its not that he was "unhappy he couldn't take the vote off" as a tell but its "why would he have wanted to given his reads"

[LlamaFluff]

I don't understand your Albban scumread, dumb it down for me. The only part I get is the not unvoting Vedith and the vote hedging.

Running up to end of day (last ~48 hours)

1) He posted a read list with Vedith at the top and Carcalilly close behind (had gap following it)
2) Carcalilly got pressure and he without really showing any change in reads started trying to push them to defend themselves. Not bad but just seemed a bit out of place to make that comment on your second pick. So no change on read published.
3) After Vedith got lynched (about 24 hours after the request for Carcalilly defene) he thinks it was a bad one and is upset his top scum read (as was last stated) got lynched.
4) alban notes it was his "RV" after he put Vedith at the top of his reads list 48 hours prior, and never showed any signs of that having changed. Feels like shirking responsibility to me. Even if it was his RV, his other posts sure makes it look like a real vote later.

THAT is the reason alban is scum if he is scum. And its why he is my third pick. Just putting that together splits him and Scorp up onto different tiers between town and scum... would consider alban over AUN if it showed up sitationally.

He a manipulative one, and you an idiot with anger management issues.

Okay that actually made me laugh.

And, this despite the fact that bot of you are null-reading each other.

I do actually have him as scum though (primarily due to Io play). Its why im voting him.

[LlamaFluff]

While he is here...

@alban - What changed for you between the point where you listed Vedith and Carcalilly as your top two scum reads and the point where Vedith self-hammered?

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah im back to not really wanting to lynch alban after he explained his list was basically all of the common reads reversed and not a scum->town list.

Still like Mulch vote mostly for Io stuff. Was poking around to try and find some people arguing three scum (Io was a two scum team assumption player but I think they are strong enough to expect that if town).

Side note: I also don't really agree with you Llama when it comes to Scorpious. His last few posts aren't screaming town to me and his vote on Verdith is basically him declaring Verdith is scum for a NAI reason. Honestly all of his reads this game have felt terrible and based on bad reasoning.

This bugs me abit too from Io. I was calling it a town tell if anyone in the "fake clear" group was scum as Scorp seemed to actually buy it. Instead we have Io pushing back on a town tell and seeming to have a problem with a vote from a scum suspect on the wagon they are showing intention to place at L-1. Its just off. If a scum read jumps on a wagon, its a reality check time and not "ignore it" time.

I just want to hear from people I trust the reads of at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

Im getting flustered... too many town reads.

Apart from Mulch, I think just about any wagon is has major flaws right now. AUN even has a few redeeming posts near the end of day on a reread.

@AUN - Why did you not ever vote near the end of the day?

[LlamaFluff]

Scopious has really great confidence and tone, but when you look into their posts they are sorta shit and also pretty town grabby. He's also just literally refusing to do anything and is not participating at ALL and is baseing his reads off good reasons but nothing to support. I want more.

So then they faked thinking the Vedith claim was probably real to you? Because remember scum knew it was fake immediately. I could see scum acting like it was real if they can pull it off, but it would require a new player who could feign ignorance of the role existing + know that they should fake thinking it was real in that situation.

The strongest case in that direction is how Carcalilly and Scorpious ignored each other the entire game, even then it turns into more of a "PoE if everyone else is town" thing.

[LlamaFluff]

I don't even remember them faking anything lmao remember I replaced in after day 1 and just skimmed the game.

His reactions D1 to the whole claim situation seem to glaze over it initially, and when it was forced out that it was a fake his posts showed that he had actually believed the claim, which would have "cleared" his partner.

So again, you think he decided to fake believe it as opposed to a player who heard of a new role for the first time just looking it up and assuming it was real? I have a bit of a hard time buying that Scorpious saw what he knew was a fake claim, and then decided to ignore it but return to vote Vedith for fakeclaiming later trying to pass it off as he was duped when just sheeping people on the wagon would have been far easier. Its not a super strong town tell, but I don't buy that one without a strong case. Town or scum, I think his posts would be similar in trying to keep up with a game while too busy in real life.

I still think the only real reason to call Scorpious scum is that the interactions between him and Carcalilly were non-existent.

[LlamaFluff]

Carcalilly likes talking to their partners a decent amount as scum btw. Check out ThinkBig's mini normal

If you buy that why are you calling Scorpious scum? They ignored each other.

Why don't you think the quotess I just posted are damning?

Because not having time is not a scumtell. Because asking questions is not a scumtell. The only thing that can at all be called a scumtell in what you quoted is not giving reads.

Its been day two for 72 hours. Just because you are averaging a post every 20 minutes since the day started doesn't mean everyone has time to do that. When his posting rate hasn't changed much the entire game, that is a complete null tell.

[LlamaFluff]

You can just use

Code: Select all

[/quote]

to close off quote brackets in the future. It tends to make everything flow better than making a dozen individual points or risking more breaks in formatting by using bold.

Anyway.

Because of the other scummy stuff? IDK what you want from me man. Meta is also changeable, so it's not the end all be all. But it does point towards towny points in Scorpy's direction.

I just am wondering why even bring that up when it conflicts with your vote. Carcalilly basically ignored everyone but Vedith and MM all of day one until they were under a lot of pressure.

I have no problem asking alban about reads and even saying a "which of X would you vote" because trying to figure out the reads of others, and match that to what they are saying for consistency, is a good thing. Even more if the player in question is being vague about reads, being direct abut it is a good thing. Its not a town tell or a scum tell. Its trying to extract information which is a good thing, just not a tell either way.

The only post I you quoted I have any problem with is the "reads lists are bad" which can be true in certain scenarios, but in this case makes sense as there are a concensus group of town reads that the majority of the game holds, and given the player state it really only helps

[LlamaFluff]

Well also replacing out tactically is blatantly against site rules and a bannable offense. Both replace outs read far more "rage quit" at face value though.

@Mulch - You are saying you read Scorp as scum, but at the same time are implying that you will unvote if he responds to the million little posts you made. Which is it?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm not unvoting unless he responds, and if he responds I may or may not unvote depending on his response.

So you are tunneling on him until he responds?

Because, unlike you, I might change my read if I see something I like or don't like, and I'm going to try and find the stuff for BOTH sides of the arguement, so I can ba accurate, instead of deciding ooh he is scum! and then trying to fit a case around the narrative.

What part of "Your responses do nothing to make me think you are town and between your play and the Io-Carcalilly interactions still think you are scum" do you not get?

Llama this may be a revolutionary thought, but why don't you try and analyze someone other than me (say, the Whymafia Alban Scorpious) and see who is scummy there?

:Mindblown:

WM is town for D1 play.
Alban is town lean after realzing that his list read was town->scum (as their entire read list was inverse of the consensus) as I don't think he hard defends his partner day one when momentum shifts that way. Same with Carcalilly when trying to be productive to save their own lives starts pushing alban (who would be a partner) instead of the easy out in Vedith who they "saw" as scum.
Ive already explained Scorp-townish read.

So none of them. All are town to null-town.

Lots of town reads. You are scum though, and the only one, so it probably explains the number of town reads.

[LlamaFluff]

Your scum's greatest asset if you are town, and if we lynch wrong today I'm 100% sure your not the nightkill, or your scum. Those are the 2 options

You do realize the same applies to you... literally I think we are at a point where a majority of the scum night actions are forced just based on reads, which is another reason we shouldn't massclaim too early.

[LlamaFluff]

i'm literally townread by most everyone except you, so if you didn't exist I would be one of the town's greatest asset, probably even a nightkill, instead your turning me into a negative utility as the tunneled

if you think so highly of yourself that you will ever be NKed based on being read as town... there is no point in engaging. At *best* you are the consensus 4th town read or maybe tied with WM (unless a kill doesn't happen there are three NKs at best), if you force through a mislynch today that will be a thing of the past FAST too. If you are at all slightly wrong on reads too, scum just has to stay on you good side and you will scream down anyone.

Also side note that probably should be brought up just incase... if there is a town RB/JK we should be massclaiming today as we get a free clear out of it.

Mulch, to be town's greatest asset, you will need to provide a way fwd.
So, if you have a plan, let's focus on that. Whom do we lynch, where do we go from there if a mislynch, and the works.
Llama, same for you.

We lynch Mulch. Io has horrible interactions with Carcalilly, especially around the Vedith lynch. Mulch hasn't been a beacon of town, they are just loud in an attempt to look like they have more points than they really have. Even if I ignore massive theory differences on what should be done as town and decide to call them null tells based on flawed logic, I still read him as scum. That lynch should end the game. If not we massclaim D3 and probably are able to put a bow on the game at that point.

[LlamaFluff]

I will take that as a "not RB/JK" claim as well. Because if we have one I really think it ends the game for us because we just park them on AUN or someone like that.

[LlamaFluff]

How about we lynch you, and then I am nightkilled because nobody else is dumb enough to scumread me, and then problem solved?

I would LOVE it if scum NKed you if you are town... it would give town a chance to be productive instead of you essentially screaming half of the game into contentless posting as they try to catch up. Which is exactly why (apart from most people having you null town to null scum) it would never happen. That and other things which mean you should really stop posting angry if town. If you are scum please keep doing it because it could trap you later.

[LlamaFluff]

Why would I ever be nightkilled when Llama is dead set on tunneling me for the entire game?

So im supposed to vote a town read?

Steel is town. MM is town. WM is town. Alban is probably town. Scorp is probably town. AUN is null read. You are a scum read.

You keep complaining about ego, but apparently are incapable of realizing that I read you as scum and just about the rest of the game as town. Am I supposed to start questioning my town reads and voting them? Nothing you have done makes me think you are town to a point where I should be voting anywhere else.

You push on Scorpious is enough to be a reason to scum read you on its own. Most of it is "you didn't respond to all of my posts" or null tells and you basically refuse to summarize it, which should be the easiest thing in the world for you to do if its something you actually believe. When you make 200 posts in a couple of days is REALLY hard to find anything when you just go "I said it already".

Just respond to him and actually be productive. Multiple players are stating that you are making it very hard to play the game with you due to your posting style. Even if you are saying that one of them is scum, that is about a third of the TOWN complaining about your playstyle making it either not fun to play the game or difficult to. Take a hint.

[LlamaFluff]

Half the town= you and scorpious

Also alban who you made request replacement. Don't forget that. Also third of town.

But really, summarize your case on Scorp. Don't just quote a dozen posts. It should be easy right?

[LlamaFluff]

Why are the "town grabby" posts not just him just doing town things? Why are these two things different.
How does one "base reads on good reasons" yet have "nothing to support"?

[LlamaFluff]

Scum might do stuff that makes them "appear" towny- something as simple as "gamesolving", but it isn't ACTUALLY trying to solve the game and the focus is more on APPEARING town. Scorpi's posts look like town cred grabbing instead of natural being town.

Give an example of what is "trying" to be town and what town acting town would have done instead.

For the second question, his read on me for caring how much I look is basically the best reason to scumread someone- objectively- but it's wrong and more damning he has no posts to support it. Hence; good reasons, no support.

Saying "its wrong" does nothing. I could say "its wrong" in response to reasons any time someone calls me scum, but it doesn't matter.

Also I think most of your posts like immediately saying you are town upon replacing in and pushing me because I am calling you scum are all reasons that show that you are very concerned with self-preservation and being read as town to an extent that does not come from town. That is a valid reason for calling you scum. While its not all you have done, you are FAR more concerned about people viewing you as scum than anyone else in the game is

[LlamaFluff]

I have absolutely zero problem with 1048. That is a good question to ask there if its not well known.

1068 I have said is a bit of an issue, but its a weak tell as long as you have a good general grasp on what his reads are.

1229 is middling. I think its probably genuine frustration, but its a poor reason for an attack. Only if that switched around his read on the slot from town to scum I raise a red flag over it. As I think alban is more likely town that Scorp, its just a very weak tell overall to me.

[LlamaFluff]

No, 1068 isn't scum for not having a reads list, it was for the way he shouted "I'm town!" by saying reads list are FOR SCUM

But you are calling him scum for a difference in theory. If you want him to elaborate on what he means, ask that directly, because I read it as meaning something entirely different than what you do. I read that as "scum benefit from reads lists - im not making one", which if that is what you think, its the right move.

The only way that is a scum tell is if he sees it as a scumtell to MAKE a read list and has acted on it inconsistently throughout the game.

It's like you have everything backwards

If someone has different theory than you do, its not a tell. I think a large reason for conflicts between us we have entirely different sets of tells and terminology and when pressing against each other that turn volatile very quickly because there IS a distinct schism between how both of us approach the game.

For instance I think its a joke to be posting "I am voting X, but they might be town because of Y" while you do it willingly. Same with terms "Buddying vs Pocketing" etc. I dunno.... its just that I think we come from different backgrounds to nearly a detrimental extent. Granted this changes nothing about my Io read. Or that I still read most of the game as town, but I think I see where a split occurs.

[LlamaFluff]

"scum benefit from reads lists - im not making one

"Hidden meaning: I'm not scum. It's basically subtly shouting that he is town.

How does town say that then if they think "scum benefit from reads lists"

[LlamaFluff]

Just...

@Scorp - Explain your views on read lists.

[LlamaFluff]

Just...

@Scorp - Explain your views on read lists.

You don't understand...

You don't understand...

Its his wording you are arguing with. I can easily see scum OR town saying the exact same thing as its what they believe to be true. Your logic is that *you* would not say it in that way as town, when I see zero issue with town saying that context pending. If its the meta belief of Scorp, than he should say so. If he is using it as a reason to avoid giving reads and is ignoring that others ahv been making reads lists, THEN you have a case, but him wording it like that has nothing to do with alignment and instead has everything to do with theory beliefs.

[LlamaFluff]

If you think WM is scum, please make a concise case because that is an opinion held essentially just by you.

[LlamaFluff]

Far from a bad lynch... but I still think this is somewhat likely town, at least to the point where AUN and Mulch are better. I think alban and WM have converged as same ground "prob town" reads too here. He should claim so we can go from there. Regardless of the claim I want to say something if someone wants to hammer post claim. Logically he is in the three lynch pool, but its still worst out of the three.

[LlamaFluff]

WM is horrible over the last page or so. Alban has just easily passed him town read wise.

Scorp is still more likely town than scum but needs to claim here so we can figure out what needs to be done. Sooner rather than later would be great.

@WM - How are Scorp and AUN your top two scum reads? You were voting alban until just a few pages ago.

[LlamaFluff]

Breaking my no posting from phone at work but... get off him. Scorp claim N1 action.

There will be terse posting once home

[LlamaFluff]

Mulch please. If you are town don't get to into this and ruin a lot of solid traps we can set for scum. If scum doesn't know how to handle this claim we can come out way on top.

There are a TON of traps here but I need a keyboard to lay it out and I'm at the office where it's just phone

[LlamaFluff]

Should Scorp have called his shot D1 and targeted them? Of course, but he didn't and if he is scum that was a massive misstep.

Anyway. This is great claim for us as we are now 100% guaranteed one of two thing to happen, no matter who is scum:

1) Scum are forced to remove lynchbait
2) We have confirmed town

All that has to happen is we direct Scorp tonight. I have been trying to break this for a little, and even with perfect play and there is no situation that I have found for scum that allows them to get away with no having one of those things happen. It is true regardless of the alignment of Scorp, and whoever he targets. No matter what scum decides to do, scum is just forced to choose between one of those two results. If scum makes a misstep, which is very easy to have happen if they cant piece everything together, we come out far ahead of either a free lynch or a confirmed player.

So this is what we actually do here:

Vote No Lynch

We are on an even number of players. In a situation where only one player dies tonight, we will suddenly be in a situation where we actually get a free lynch. If we do lynch today, that is not guaranteed to happen as scum have more counters and are able to keep the game at an even number of players as the correct play for them in that case is blindingly obvious.

The reason we DONT lynch is two fold

1) We have eight players alive. Skipping a lynch doesn't change how many players are alive and gives us a ton of information with a NK.
2) Outing a PR can give scum a fighting chance. Let all other PRs know what will happen tonight from Scorp, and let them make correct moves based on that knowledge with no threat of being outted first.

Scum are in a very very tight spot right now. If we give them more information in the form of a claim and/or flip there is a chance that it opens a door for them to get some breathing room.

Who we make Scorp target tonight is clear: AUN.

AUN if confirmed town, would be very useful to have around in the long run. At the same time, he is also a lynch bait player, so being able to successfully remove him from the lynch pool is great.

This plan is one that give scum a massive uphill battle, even if they play it perfectly the best they can have happen is they are forced to remove a mislynch for us with a NK, while we still have three lynches left.

@Scorp - Target AUN tonight.
@Mulch - There are a lot of things that town can say about the plan, which eliminates newer scum from falling for traps and pitfalls in what is not a normal situation. I am trying to make to players that post without always thinking that they need to be VERY careful about what they say about this plan because there are reckless things that can be said to clue in scum about things. You have already said something along those lines once in this game so I don't trust you on it.

Essentially we just gain a free lynch as scum will be forced to remove a player who was on nearly everyones short list or we get some confirmed town. Both are excellent. Lets just be smart about this. I fully realize no lynch is not something that is expected and is controversial, but there are situations where it does work. This happens to be one of them. Just think through everything from a perspective as you being scum, as Scorp being scum, and as AUN being scum. Play them out in your head and just TRY to tell me that you would prefer a no lynch to a mislynch here from any of those standpoints.

[LlamaFluff]

I think Scorpious should save Llama. That way I will be confident about Llama.

No.

Too late to discuss any of that. AUN is more lynch bait either way and can words good. If he gets cleared that is a huge win.

@Scorp - Tonight target AUN. Do NOT deviate from this under any circumstance. If you do something else and are town you risk basically costing us the game.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, explain this to me. At the moment, there are equal, if not more, people reading AUN as town as you.Plus, if you are indeed town, honestly your contribution to the game is much more than AUN.Logically, you should be the save.

I can defend myself. Plus if I am scum I know the best response to this plan already so I would rather put it on a player who might not figure it out. Even if it is not a large chance for AUN to mess it up, its more than zero.

Scorp is targeting AUN. There is no discussion about it. No lynch is hammered. I can keep myself alive if needed. My best skill is this game is not pushing lynches or catching scum, its stopping lynches I don't like.

[LlamaFluff]

We massclaim here before anything else. AUN dictates all order/terms of it as he is clear.

Really odd kill though. Scorp should have been it if he is town outside of a really strong PR read.

[LlamaFluff]

the singular benefit to doing massclaim today would be to kinda clear scorp if there are no other PR claims, i don't see 8 vt + 2shotvig vs 2 goons as something that would be passed tbh

it could also out an important role though

That first setup would never be passed. The setup as even claimed right now might not even pass against two goons because it could go sideways really quickly and badly for town. Basically a role that gets one confirmed result (and dies if its scum) and a vig.... works but im not sold on it. High variance setup.

If there is intent to vote Scorp though, we 100% should massclaim because you are in one of two situations:

1) Massclaim finished scum-Scorp off
2) Massclaim clears town-Scorp and we suddenly have two confirmed town

If you are looking at lynching elsewhere, then we can discuss not massclaiming. If we do massclaim though, I can see merits in AUN being allowed to abstain if he wishes.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm still inclined to think Scorpious is town, but if you all really want to lynch him, we might want to massclaim. I was thinking about this overnight - whether mafia kills Scorpious or elsewhere, it still kinda frames me or Scorpious respectively.

Scorp is still probably town. His claim never survives to endgame, so he would have had to make a game ending misread of what his claim was and make it complex instead of claiming something like "one shot doctor".

Basically last night in a nutshell:

If scum was Scorp -> AUN clear, he takes shot at a PR read
If scum was AUN -> Scorp kill is forced
If scum elsewhere -> Choice between taking a PR shot and clearing AUN (only good if you are sure there is a third PR and have a read on who) vs Killing Scorp to prevent a cleared player (best move)

That's what bugs me about all of it. If you wanted to PR hunt, Steel was a bad shot. The only player who would be forced to make that move is Scorp, but then why claim a "must be lynched" role that also will result in force-clearing a player?

Someone just made a major error (or at least took a high risk high reward route), and im not sure who.

Guess Occamz says Scorp, but we still cant do that without massclaim. Even then it probably would have been a better move to just kill AUN and try to argue there is a scum RB

[LlamaFluff]

VT

[LlamaFluff]

We need to do this quickly. Deadline is Thursday and at such a time that people who work will not be able to post all/most of the day.

@Mulch - Why would you vote Scorp before a masslcaim if you are VT?

[LlamaFluff]

@Mulch - Why would you vote Scorp before a masslcaim if you are VT?

Because I think he's scum?

But, if everyone else claims VT, he is confirmed town and so is AUN. You are voting someone that with very basic information reveal could be confirmed town. You STILL are voting someone that applies to.

Maybe its just thinking differences again, but my immediate thought with a Steel kill was "well that's unexpected, we should massclaim to see if we have two cleared players". I am at a point where depending on claims I either will vote him or you/WM. I cant actually say what though without all the claims.

[LlamaFluff]

Why did you think Steel was an odd kill? Second time asking

Because if there is another PR claim I thought it was REALLY obvious who it will come from. And it wasn't Steel who was probably VT given his priorities in his posts where he showed very little will in trying to push things in certain situations when a PR who was being read as town would be trying to set things up differently.

Steel kill seems to be a "I don't think I can lynch them" shot. Which signifies that scum is not afraid of more PR claims. Which gives more credit to Scorp being town and scum would hope for town to just freak out and still try to lynch the slot for some reason. I just don't understand the logic behind that kill, unless the player I had a strong PR read is a PR, and Scorp is town. Otherwise its just a massive error for scum.

Also why are you harping on "you were left alive to vote me" as a reason for you to vote me, when that statement would mean I am town. Do you honestly think that if I am town and decided to just 180 and call you obviously town at the end of yesterday I would ever have eaten the kill? There was absolutely zero reason for the kill to be outside Scorp, Steel and Mario. Ever. No matter who read who as what unless scum was 100% convinced they found a PR.

Why the fuck aren't you asking the same question to Mario? I know you townread hiim but you aren't even suspicious a LITTLE he could be scum?

General detachment from the game and lack of awareness of what is happening. I think scum would have a far better grip on what is going on and not be ignorant of how roles interact with each other. The forgetting the exact claim of Scorp I don't see as faked, and I see no way scum forgets something like that. That and that really odd much on him D1 from Carcalilly I don't think makes sense. Scum in a two scum game parking their vote on a partner and then somewhat forgetting the reasoning and magnitude of how strong they were pushing them again doesn't feel like something scum would typically do. Normally scum are more aware of how they are interacting with a partner than how they are interacting with town.

I probably would have called Steel scum over MM if it came down to it.

From your PoV it shoulden't matter if everyone claims VT...

Well yes and no... it shouldn't matter much but yeah I don't see it changing.

[LlamaFluff]

Steel kill seems to be a "I don't think I can lynch them" shot. Which signifies that scum is not afraid of more PR claims. Which gives more credit to Scorp being town and scum would hope for town to just freak out and still try to lynch the slot for some reason.

Walk me through how this makes Scorpious town lol poor Mulch does not have the ability to comprehend this

It works both ways. From my perspective, if I am scum I know that I just created a situation where there are two different possibilities for my action: Kill Scorp or kill who I think is a PR. The only reason that you go outside of Scorp, is if you are not a goon meaning you are positive there would be a minimum of three town PRs.

Basically my thought process is any goon would have had to killed Scorp. Either he is scum and went for a player who was probably going to push a few mislynches, or he is town and scum doesn't know what they are doing. Flat out odds (as my PR pick still hasn't claimed) I would probably put Scorp around 30% scum right now, but I am more than willing to give him benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't have claimed something that requires him to be lynched before the game ends.

Its one of those things where I always tend to trust people make at least a somewhat optimal move, and claiming 1 Shot Weak Doc over X Shot Doctor I don't think scum actually does because of how much damage it does to their standing. Its not a desperation move either, I remember a really old open game from maybe five or six years ago that I realized was broken for town if you can correctly pick out two town midway though it so floated that from a replacement slot who was being somewhat scum read in an attempt to get read as town and win, but didn't work.

I just trust Scorp as a player enough to not have entirely game thrown. Really its all lip service until we get final claims though. I am a very robotic type player, the hardest part is when people are acting illogically or suboptimally for no good reason. That coupled with me being someone who is far better at town reading players and stopping a lynch I don't like than accurately making cases, does at times create compatibility problem, and I know I am talking in a circle, but the kill just make no sense. Steel and Mulch I had in notes as "VT or scum" very early on, so I just don't get the kill. I can understand going away from Scorp in certain scenarios, but I don't get this because it makes no sense.

if ur obvtown like me everyone townreads you

I think he is in at least three player's top three (me, Scorp, WM). Im pretty sure he is on AUNs list as well since that claim order looks a lot like what I expect his scum pick order to be. Mulch probably gets lynched this game if Scorp is town.

[LlamaFluff]

Tl;Dr: If Scorp did the kil everyone would think he is scum, and therefore Scorp isn't scum.


That's what your saying?

Im saying I don't get it.

My notes say "Much 100% VT or Scum, Steel prob VT or scum"... I just don't get it. The kill suggests Scorp scum or scum who think there is a third PR. Or scum who don't understand that if there are two PRs Scorp is unlynchable. Basically someone made a massive misstep, and I don't understand it. Something is just wrong.

[LlamaFluff]

Need to think on this one. The biggest strikes against alban is that horrible N2 action claim. Correct watch was 100% Scorp who should have been NK target, and on offchance scum had a PR, they would have targeted him as well.

Balance wise, if all PR claims are true town is somewhat overpowered. If its just Scorp+Vig, I really doubt alban is anything but a goon. There cant be three scum, even if all claims are true a three goon team is overpowered.

Question is do we just force alban to watch AUN and we lynch WM or do something else here. Its probably alban though. I think he realizes that a Scorp watch prevents that kill and at the same time saves us in the offchance of AUN-scum RB. Plus his role breaks the X-Shot format that we have seen claimed already.

[LlamaFluff]

I don't think 3 scum is impossible, though, although with up to 3 deaths N1 it does seem very unlikely.

I cant see NRG ever passing a 8-3 setup, especially this one. You literally could lynch right D1 and D2 and be down five town in a lylo situation. It would require you to also be a town PR. Even then I think it just gets deemed "too swingy" and fails to pass balance.

Its one... something like 40% alban, 25% WM and Mulch, 10% other

Only reason I am not already voting him was I had read PR situation as alban would be the PR if there was another (tiny chance MM). The Steel kill makes perfect sense from him though.

@alban - Why target Steel N1? Your reads list didn't have him as your top town read. Same with Mario N2... it seems pretty clear you were null on him.

Gut it still really saying just lynch WM and force alban to target AUN as a safety net, reevaluate if needed tomorrow, worst case we just lose Scorp that way, still decent chance we end the game. As long as we have alban alive though, we force him to keep someone alive if he is scum.

Its just rough... alban was the player to start trying to argue not AUN as a target, which scum would *never* do as if the discussion somehow ends up on them they lose the game, but it was directed at me. But everything else says he is scum. Calculated or unintentional gamble?

[LlamaFluff]

You will have to wait for next 48 hours. Maybe more.

We don't have that. Deadline is Thursday.

If you are town find a few hours tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

@Mod

- Was this game passed for balance?

I still have zero idea what scum is doing this game. None of these kills make any sense after N1.

Vote WM

AUN is town

Mario I still think is probably town

Mulch has played ridiculously scummy throughout the game, but I think has enough grip on what good scum night play would be. Scum night kills have been a comedy of errors just based on lack of them being optimal.

WM did a lot of soft defending and a few chainsaw attacks for Carcalilly early on. Jumped to Vedith at the end of the day from Carcalilly out of absolutely nowhere. The push on alban after the claim was based on him being a PR, but he never stopped to "evaluate" the possibility of Scorp being the better lynch. Watcher was a far better lynch for scum to pull off.

[LlamaFluff]

Mulch has played ridiculously scummy throughout the game

Lol?

You have. If anyone but Scorp died I would have been voting you today because basically antagonizing a role that if scum that takes confirmed town into lylo into self voting and them hammering is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen done. That is just such an error though strategically though that I don't think you would have made it.

AUN was the kill and then you leave Scorp alone. If scum knew there was a traitor Scorp would have been the worst possible kill out there.

[LlamaFluff]

At least AUN is now mod confirmed town. I want a very clear read list from everyone before he starts giving out reads.

asically antagonizing

I didn't anagonize shit

He self voted because you were being a dick to him. It was a dumb move from him, but if you are town and we somehow lose this game, a massive part of it was your play yesterday costing town their best role. Antagonizing people is a great way to make people never want to play in a game with you again. You literally have gotten warned by the mod for being abusive in this game. You relapsed back into it and if town have a really good chance at having cost us the game. Its a claim that is FORCED to take confirmed town into F3 if it was from scum. How do you lynch that without at least testing the waters to see what we can pull off?

Literally the only reason I am not voting you is I think you are smart enough to know how bad the Steel and Scorp night kills are.

[LlamaFluff]

And also btw I wasn't a dick at all.

You absolutely were. You should learn to recognize that in the future. Would make you a better player and a person.

WM is last scum.

Look at his entire D1 interaction with Carcalilly. It can be boiled down to

*Pressuring alban for thinking Carcalilly was scum
*Directing Tchill towards alban over Carcalilly
*Voting Carcalilly after I starting pushing there (but saying they would move to alban/Vedith)
*Voting Vedith (five hours later, no reasoning)
*Going back to Carcalilly as I kept pushing there and momentum shifted
*Voting Vedith for L-1 because... no real reason ever given

Carcalilly interaction with WM

Yeah there are none. Zero hits for WM. Zero hits for WhyMafia. Literally if you read the posts from Carcalilly you would never know WM was a part of the game.

The entire interactions between the two is "defend -> bus -> take other option" from one side and crickets from the other.

His D3 move of "well the setup is unbalanced with a watcher" also makes no sense. Watcher is basically a weaker version of a doctor. Instead of protecting a kill you know who made it. A cop (weak doctor) is just as strong of a role. The fact that WM never even for a moment considered this bothers me. I thought that alban was more likely scum than Scorp, but enough to vote him without trying to solve balance issues? No.

I still want AUN to weigh in. He basically is confirmed town by the mod after the answer to my question. Putting a player at L-1 without the confirmed town talking is dumb... but again its just me going back and forth on "is Mulch a bad player lucking into stuff or just town"

@WM - How am I hedging? I said you are scum. I think Mulch is better than the kills from scum. I have AUN and conf-town and MM as town. You know what is hedging?

This

VOTE: Carca
But willing to go Vedith/Alban as well

[LlamaFluff]

Heding: Saying WhyMafia and I are scum and then when WhyMafia flips town voting me tomorrow because you "messed up" and oh Mulch is really the scum

so...

Llama or Mario for me today.

That is also hedging then right? You have basically said that when I flip town you are voting Mario tomorrow. So you are scum then for that right?

[LlamaFluff]

I also want you two to walk through how my "lets force Scorp to target AUN" works for me as scum. Especially since as stated, I already said the right move was to kill Scorp (leaves AUN unconfirmed - eliminates claim). As scum why not just let you try to run up someone else (like alban) and then react accordingly. If town mislynched there, it was lylo. So instead of allowing that possibility to happen, my reaction is to introduce a setup where best case for scum, I kill town-Scorp and move us from even amount of players (favorable for scum) to odd (town leaning).

There is a time to just sit back and shut up as scum. That was one of them. Let town do something dumb without stopping it.

[LlamaFluff]

@WM - What did this mean after the hammer on alban?

damn

[LlamaFluff]

I was town. Its about 60% WM, 30% Mulch, 10% Mario. If its AUN, I will be complaining to Nexus about this game being passed because it should have been an absolute cakewalk for scum if that is the case.

Last scum had to be a part of the alban wagon. Should have been more clear on him being a bad lynch because of game breaking ability of his role at this point, but didn't expect him to actually self-vote. Scum if they had any whiff of how strong it was would have been looking for any excuse to join that wagon which essentially turned any one player bulletproof.

@AUN - If you have anything you need to say please do that now before lock.

[LlamaFluff]

Why did you think it was a hammer?

I thought AUN voted.

@Llama a scum watcher seemed likely to me because we had a vigilante. The vigilante theoretically could kill two town or 1 town/1 scum. Then the watcher could see the vig kill, and use it to get ez mis-lynch
so ???

Scum watcher is a really rare role and not a pure counter to a vig. Its more of a general counter to any role, and a weak scum one. If you want to counter a vig in particular, you put in a role like doctor or BP.

More for WM though:

@WM - What did this mean after the hammer on alban?

damn

The self-vote

So you went from "oh its completely alban" to "wow he is town and shouldn't be lynched" after the self vote? If you thought he was scum why express disappointment in that? If you knew he was town though, feigned frustration makes sense.

[LlamaFluff]

If I am going to be lynched, AUN has the hammer too. No matter who gets lynched AUN has the hammer for that matter because he has final say right here.

[LlamaFluff]

Somewhere between the last VC and your vote. I don't know if I had just read intention to vote as a vote by mistake but I thought that was day. I still hold that he has any hammer.

[LlamaFluff]

So you went from "oh its completely alban" to "wow he is town and shouldn't be lynched" after the self vote? If you thought he was scum why express disappointment in that? If you knew he was town though, feigned frustration makes sense.

I said damn because I wasn't sure what to make of that self-vote ...

So you were happy with the lynch?

If you were around to unvote before Mulch hammered, would you have and why?

[LlamaFluff]

At times I hate this game.

unvote

I just need to think for a second. At this point would still vote WM though.

@mod

- Can we get the deadline extended by about five hours? You are basically making it so anyone with a job in PST (aka me) is unable to post for about the last 18 hours of the game day, effectively shortening the day by one full day for at least 20% of the game.

Llama says in that post that they are 40% sure Alban is scum and is calling me scummy for hammering him. They even say their gut says Alban is scum. Let alone we were all in consensus agreement that he was scum, and even awesome gave me the OK to hammer. Yet I'm scummy for hammering?

Granted the power that Scorp had actually invalidated everything, so technically unless scum got lynched alban was a good thing by accident, but if alban was scum he is forced to take one player with him to F3 who he will be going 1v1 against with all other PRs and roles flipped. Yes I thought he was probably scum, but at the same time, that is amazingly strong and if he was town, you essentially force scum to kill him or correctly predict his actions for the rest of the game. That was what I was hung up on. Unlike Scorp who had tailored his claim to match the flipped role, his stuck out as different and very strong, so I was suspect of it. Free town in F3 though. I love that.

But @Llama: Are you really making this decision based off the weird night kills? I don't think I like that. I feel like night kills are usually WIFOM-y and weird, and not really a valid reason to lynch one person over another. Is that really the only reason you think Mulch is less scummy? And can you explain why you're so confident in your NKA?

The traitor things really screwed up a lot of my stuff. I don't know how much scum knows, and had been operating based on just two scum this entire game because I am VT and only saw one player (alban) after the second day who was acting like they might be a PR. More credence to only two scum. I still don't see him leaving Scorp alive though unless he knew there was a traitor and correctly read him as such.

Maybe its less strong than I think. He is still my #2 pick, but a few of the kills just don't make much sense. For instance I have ZERO clue how you are alive if scum knew there was a traitor. If they didn't kill makes sense, but in that case it should have been the N2 kill.

I just had WM as a general town read and no problem going along with that one for the first day. When starting to pay more attention to things after flips and claims started clearing things up, it didn't make as much sense.

I also really don't buy Carcalilly parks their vote on a partner with some reasoning, forgets about it, and then when pressured on it starts balking and saying its a random vote. I think that is scum realizing their vote is bad, and not scum trying to back out of a bus. That whole interaction reads as scum panicking, which doesn't really happened if they get called out with their vote in the correct place. Sure it *could* be Mario, but I don't really buy it.

[LlamaFluff]

And Mulch said that I tried to make everything a scum tell...

@WM - Can you just make a single paragraph summarizing your case?

[LlamaFluff]

i'm gonna have to ask you to explain that one mulch

I can read u and whymafia well and awesome would have to be dumb to kill scorpy

You apparently cant read them well if you are town. Im back to thinking not though.

If you are going to use "dumb to kill Scorp"... where is my motivation for killing him? Its a player who thinks I am town, who is not confirmed town, and other players are suspicious of. Going into F5... isn't that the exact player I want to keep alive? Especially if I was scum and knew there was a traitor, I decide to pass on killing what to me is confirmed town to kill the player who would be most likely to help win me the game?

I can see the kill from one of two mindsets
1) It removed my primary defender.
2) It was someone who didn't realize that is Scorp flipped, AUN is clear as opposed to AUN flipping leaving Scorp not clear.

From the first stance, you make the most sense from the kill. From the second stance, its WM or MM. Again WM over MM because Scorp was calling him scum.

Also I don't think you ever answered. Give me my scum motivation for

1) Gaining an extra lynch by keeping Scorp alive.
2) Trying to set up a tactic that let alban essentially act as a doctor
3) Killing the player who would defend me instead of killing the confirmed town.

Llama says in that post that they are 40% sure Alban is scum and is calling me scummy for hammering him. They even say their gut says Alban is scum. Let alone we were all in consensus agreement that he was scum, and even awesome gave me the OK to hammer. Yet I'm scummy for hammering?

This is horrible. Beyond horrible.

1) You would have had to assume that scum, who knew they would lose if they got lynched, would have put themselves at L-1 when you had intent to hammer.
2) If you actually read anything I was saying... you know stuff like

Gut it still really saying just lynch WM and force alban to target AUN as a safety net, reevaluate if needed tomorrow, worst case we just lose Scorp that way, still decent chance we end the game. As long as we have alban alive though, we force him to keep someone alive if he is scum.

I was saying that he was a good scum pick, but we could probably break the game if we kept him alive. I should have been more vocal on that, but you basically ignored me floating what could have been a force win for town when the previous day you were fine to go along with something that was just favorable. So get out of here with complete lies like that when a few hours before you hammered I said we should be using him not lynching him. I have zero idea how you can possibly say I supported that lynch if you bothered to actually read anything.
3) AUN has nothing to do with this, you are trying to deflect blame away for your choice. He also cross posted with you starting a "you know what lets not do this" line.

I almost would rather go back to the Mulch vote if it was possible. I want to think he is not dumb enough to hammer alban if he is town. Back to around 50-50 Mulch, WM.

@WM/Mario - I get lynched force Mulch to vote first tomorrow. It at least give you a win chance. His reason for voting me is "well I can read you well and *whine whine* he called me scum guyz". Seriously though, force him to vote first. Its essentially the same as you cross voting, but this way if he is scum you don't auto lose.

[LlamaFluff]

Mulch tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

It's about 50/50. Force Mulch to open voting

[LlamaFluff]

Look at scum trying to get out of voting first. If he refuses to lynch him.

[LlamaFluff]

I need to learn how to talk to the low content high volume newer generation better. Was right but standard cases apparently is not the way to get a point across anymore.

Sorta surprised this setup passed given how unbearably swingy it is. Technically balanced but such a range of outcomes would make me avoid playing it.

[LlamaFluff]

Its just this type of player. If its other more "old school" player I am far more effective. Its almost like a generational thing. Mentalities between "say anything that comes to your mind that second" and "present it nicely" doesn't match well. At this point in the site meta though the "just say what you are thinking at any point" is the predominant playstyle. Its why I don't play that much anymore, its not as much fun because of the players. Its like if you play a sport you like but are at a position you are not a big fan of. Its still enjoyable but not as fun.

[LlamaFluff]

Lol even so is it really the old school way to decide I'm scum and then literally find everything scummy about me and present it and ignore all towny?

You had no reliable town tells, coming from someone who prefers to operate on town tells. You had multiple reliable scum tells. A few weak town tells + multiple strong scum tells = scum read.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama I'm talking about confirmation bias. Is this an old school thing

What is the difference between confirmation bias and not being convinced by defenses that a read is different to you? I think it is just in the eyes of the beholder. Nothing you really said made me think I was likely wrong because it just bounced around the point and tried to deflect things instead of showing how town did blatantly scummy things. To me a successful defense of an accusation is convincing me that "town would have done X because of Y" or "what happened wasn't X but Y" which you never did.

[LlamaFluff]

Because it adds more swing to an already swingy game?

[LlamaFluff]

Which is why with two scum it increases the swing factor.

I absolutely love encryptor as a role, widely underused despite being one of the most skill oriented roles in the game (meaning the better the scum team the better the role is). Just here it adds to swing factor because there are only two scum. One dies and the role is immediately rendered useless.

[LlamaFluff]

Good scum can make it very valuable. Knowing what your partners intentions behind moves are can really help scum make things look natural and build off each others actions throughout the day. Being surprised by your partner or knowing they are trying to do something but not being able to tell what is difficult in the day phase. Not having to sit there and guess what a move means, and instead being able to make the optimal reaction to help the team, is very important. Ive had a game where I think a win came mainly due to encryptor resulting in scum team knew all the PRs and set up multiple mislynches during a D1 bus that was coordinated backstage.

Like I said, it depends on who is scum, but when scum is strong, its an extremely strong advantage. If scum is bad or just ignored it, then its a bad role.