Mini Normal 1929 - Game Over
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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@Vedith - One chance. Is the claim real - yes or no? If yes there is a borderline game breaking tactic here.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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The one that can be close to game breaking. The day-sensor one.In post 523, Vedith wrote:
Llama! \o/In post 521, LlamaFluff wrote:@Vedith - One chance. Is the claim real - yes or no? If yes there is a borderline game breaking tactic here.
Can you advise which exact claim you mean?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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The one with results. Stalling shouldn't be happening here.In post 528, Vedith wrote:
Oh, not the Day 2 IC 3 shot sensor?In post 527, LlamaFluff wrote:The one that can be close to game breaking. The day-sensor one.
Real claim with results. Yes or no.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Vote Vedith-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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More than fine with my vote. At best Vedith is playing intentionally anti-town as town and refusing to actually do anything productive. At worst and more likely he is scum who is attempting to semi-troll the game while still oversaturating it with uncertainty regarding his claim to such an extent that he can control the lynch from afar.
AUN and Carcallily are excellent picks for potential partners.
Real town block moving forward is myself, WM, Io and Tchill. MM is honorary borderline member.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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See if he stayed with his claim, he is 100% the correct lynch just based on strategy as we essentially manage to force all of the remaining scum kills if he is town or we get rid of scum. As he is backing off, he is still the lynch but now just because he is scum instead of being a policy lynch based on results of what he claimed.In post 552, MarioManiac4 wrote:
or we could just accept that he retracted?In post 549, Steel wrote:I think we should find out vedith's real claim the old fashioned way now.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Yep. You tried to force the entire game in the direction of AUN, WM and Scorpious based off a fake claim which essentially eliminated three players from the pool until it finally got shut down multiple pages later after you spent a deal of time trying to figure out if you should stick with it or not.In post 555, Vedith wrote:I tried to push a lynch with an innocent result.
Basically everything Vedith has done, and continues to do is at best anti-town and poor play. Even now he continues to make assumptions about who will be alive and that flips will not have any bearing on what future day reads will have, which is something that scum do far more often than town because they know what flips will be before they occur and can control night kills.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Who hates him for it though? It was almost for sure fake out the gate because as previously noted he should have been snap-lynched because of it if it was real. If he is town or scum he didn't have the ability to read that it was essentially a suicidal claim.In post 561, Steel wrote:
I realize it doesn't come through, but that was annoyance. I do have half a mind to lynch him out of spite now for all the time I wasted researching that claim, though logically I still can't put that much scum motivation to him making everyone hate him either.In post 556, MarioManiac4 wrote:where?
pedit: I'm willing to consider Vedith as a lynch and I will think about that in the morning when I am more capable of critical thought, but Steel reccomended lynching him to reveal if his claim is true when he has retracted his claim.
Most people don't seem to care, or have started dismissing him to the extent that they really don't care what he does. Being ignored may not be a typical tactic that is taken, but if you can be read as "just ignore them" until later in the game, that can be a viable tactic if you are unable to successfully pull off more typical scum game approaches. A large amount of the game still seems to like him more than not, even after the claim has been heavily disproven.
@AUN - Carcllily is my strongest scum read if you entirely ignore everything going on with Vedith. Passive reads for the most part mixed with an approach to the Vedith claim where they seem to want to defend them, but are never able to present a good reason to do such. That is the type of approach that scum who got "cleared" either by scum OR town faking a claim would most want to take as they have a free pass to do whatever. Especially seeming to attack MM for pushing on Vedith post claim (which that push IS the correct town reaction) they are a great pick for scum here. If Vedith is scum, it just makes the read that much stronger.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Quick question - is Self-meta a scumtell to you?In post 220, Carcalilly wrote:self-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 285, Carcalilly wrote:When I'm scum I usually just focus on when someone mentions me or my scumpartner, and not care about the rest of the game. ^
I still prefer Vedith but have increasingly no problem with Carcalilly lynch happening. What they have done this game almost perfectly describes their scum self-meta.In post 577, Carcalilly wrote:
I can see scum using it more than town.In post 576, LlamaFluff wrote:
Quick question - is Self-meta a scumtell to you?In post 220, Carcalilly wrote:self-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Oh wow, I might have called two scum right here.
The read is very lazy. Most of the "reasoning" doesn't match up to what Carcalilly is doing throughout the day, and she wasn't even voting MM until they were called out on it.In post 585, awesomeusername wrote:When you say "passive reads" do you mean that Carca's reads are lazy or that you have a gut read?
When Vedith said "zero scum" Carcalilly pivoted off of an alban scum read (who was "cleared") a bit, and no disbelief was every expressed at any point. Trying to read interactions between multiple spam/low content/troll-ish players is hard, but I think the claim completely caught Carcalilly offguard to the point where regardless of town they just got confused and backed off of everything.I'm fairly confident based on 332 that Carca didn't believe Vedith's claim. Can you please provide evidence that she believed the claim? Otherwise it doesn't make sense for her to feel "cleared."
And that's not how I read her attack on Mario. Wasn't Mario's push on Vedith because he was making Pokemon puns? So not serious? And Carca's scumread on him for completely separate reasons?
The push on Mario is bad for a few reasons
1) It has no reasoning assigned past page twelve, half a game ago, and there is no real push of it. Ever.
2) Carcalilly had a vote on the wrong player for a majority of the game. Almost immediately after their "Case" ends, they are voting Vedith. Its not until MM points out that the vote is in the wrong point that Carcallilly moves to where they claim to have a scum read on.
This is not town who is hunting scum. This is scum going through the motions and forgetting where their own vote is because they are not paying attention to what is happening and what they are supposed to be doing.
Remember that Carcalilly self-meta though? Where they stay quiet as scum until either them or a partner is attacked? Guess what happened right before they remembered that MM was scum to them and that is where their vote should be? MM voted Vedith.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Can we be careful not to quick lynch please and thank you.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Both Vedith and Carcalillly are just different types of scummy.
Vedith is the "intentionally useless - adding clutter" type scum, who has done next to nothing but when they do actually start trying to play are really scummy for the most part, but with the amount of spam they add can essentially shrug off anything as a joke.
Carcalilly just seems to be detached from the game while still adding the "joking around" excuse to most of their stuff. For example they are voting alban, who apparently they thought was scum until the "fake claim" where they moved away and then forgot about moving away... and now two thirds of the way through day one are ready to "start taking things seriously".
Still think that Vedith is a slightly better lynch. Basically all they have done that shows any type of read is the joke claim, where they called a few played "confirmed town" and opened up a lynch pool without any sort of reasoning and followed through with it for enough time that it cant have been a joke that they were his scum reads. Trying to say things like "just trust me" and other statements along those lines do nothing to explain a read and at most can be reaction tests on others (but I somehow doubt there was that level of intent even if he is town). While I think most players would immediately see the claim as a joke, the fact that it was continued for so long still bothers me as there are a lot of newer players who might not be able to piece that together immediately.
Now he comes in with the Carcalilly vote late, when he basically ignored the role until I showed up and voted Vedith. First mention of them being scum since literally joke phases of the game, with no reason. It takes me starting to come down on Carcalilly before the vote shows up there.
@Carcalilly - Vedith read?
@alban - You haven't moved your vote in a long time. Still happy with it?
@MM - You aren't voting either major wagon. Basic thoughts on both?
Few other thoughts:
If Vedith or any of the players he notes as "cleared" are scum, I think Scorpious gains town points for recent posts.
One thing that is REALLY bugging me is that a lot of players seem to assume three scum. In 11P games it is very rare for there to be more than two scum. If we get to a F3 at any point, someone go back and read early thoughts to see who was implying three scum and give minor town/scum points accordingly.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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So can we really just lynch Vedith? I somewhat trust that regardless of alignment Carcalilly will eventually produce some sort of reads and tells, Vedith is just backed into a corner and spouting WIFOM and trolling. What is the absolute best case with respect to Vedith here? Town that cant be trusted to contribute or make a pro-town move in the future?
Basically this. While I am not entirely sure if it was faked or not, scum would instantly know something is up if any of those four players is scum. If the exceedingly off chance that all are town though, while they may not know the correct approach moving forward they would know that something is wrong. Its a whole lot of WIFOM though as you have to start getting into theory of if players could intentionally present an ignorant approach to setup when they have additional information. Its basically a weaker version of the "player who forgets the open setup is town" tell.awesomeusername wrote:Also, I initially didn't like Llama's statement about Scorpious either, but it's actually really smart - if Scorpious is scum with Vedith or one of Vedith's "clears," he knows for sure that the claim is a lie. And his posts really look like an inexperienced player who was caught off guard by the claim and feel for it. Does that make sense? That said, I agree that his play has been generally scummy.
It of course IS possible for it to be an 8:3 setup, but for that to happen you would need a very weak scum team and a stacked town. In the end you can balance it, but you are going to have a very swingy setup and its just not recommended.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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If we can get Vedith to claim before Monday when I go back to being at the office and not having access for about 12 hours a day that would be great. This guy is doing NOTHING but just trolling at this point. Still have no idea why they are voting Carcalilly because they did that before I started outlining that case, so it cant be sheeping my logic.
@Vedith - How many closed setups have you ran?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Sweet Celestia he isn't even taking my "maybe if he answers this there is an off-chance he is town" outs.
Its a mod call.In post 642, Vedith wrote:
In Normal games?In post 640, MarioManiac4 wrote:Yes, scum don't know the traitor, but they know there is a traitor, and you said "the scum team don't know there's a traitor"
Normally the scum is not informed there is a traitor but they are able to figure it out within a few days of play due to balance issues. If the mod wants to inform scum of a traitor though, its still normal but just not typical. Same with cop results, recruitment ability, traitor losing if both mafia die, etc. The most common variant is "scum not told" but multiple exist, and all can appear in this game if that is how it was balanced.
The fact that a completely inexperienced mod jump immediately at "traitor" over "strong town, 3 goon" or "2 scum" is also really odd. My first instinct in an 11P game until given contrary evidence is not traitor.
Still though:
Vedith is not contributing
Vedith is not giving any reasoning behind the vote of Carcalilly
Vedith is scum
@MM - Vote Vedith. How is trolling when getting ran up and the extent of his reads being "I can read Carcalilly well" after ignoring them/calling them town for the majority of the game ever equate to anything but scum?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Then why isn't he giving reasoning for read he never really even mentioned until I replaced in and started putting pressure on him?In post 666, MarioManiac4 wrote:I'm 99% sure Vedith isn't trolling here.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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But it cant be a real meta read. The timing of it doesn't make any sense as the move to Carcalilly seems directly correlated with the timing of me pushing him for the fake claim and not due to anything that was done to trigger a shift in reads. If something was done, he is either unwilling or unable to describe what it is, and is now just blindly trying to shove meta in our faces when there was zero mention of anything being off until some pressure was applied to him instead.In post 670, MarioManiac4 wrote:that's just vedith really. i get the idea he wants to push the wagon further before making a case or just doesn't want to build a case for a read that can't really be cased (i.e tone read- if they were experienced w/ each other vedith could tell if something was off) but you'd have to ask him.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Examples are..... ???In post 678, Vedith wrote:
I wanted to see how she reacted. I didn't like it but wanted to carry it on for a bit.In post 677, Tchill13 wrote:Vedith why did you put carcalilly in your conf town then come out and say you think she's scum? What changed?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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You say Carcalilly reacted badly. What are those reactions and why are they bad? Also why did you not vote her until I voted you?
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Why are you not voting Vedith?In post 692, Carcalilly wrote:You guys don't know my town game yet :/-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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WELL then....
I want to see a vote count but that was all sorts of bad.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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How/Why...In post 700, Carcalilly wrote:My read has changed since then :/
Can we just assume from here on out that when anyone has a read change in a couple page timespan in some situation like this I will be asking how/why to save time?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Aight.... flattery will get you everywhere with me but I need to step back and think on this one.
@Carclilly - Why did you move to alban? Does what I said change that read at all?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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@Vedith/Carcalilly - Please give me a bullet point case on each other. No links. Just a very brief couple hundred word case that does not reference things that other players have said for ease of access for the rest of us.
I just want something that I can clearly point to and say X thinks Y is scum because of <reasons> because you both seem to be mostly using things that others are saying. Even if that is the case, reword it to reflect what you are thinking.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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L-1
Claim should happen.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In that case hammer should happen.
Scummy player who refuses to back up reads, at best is playing intentionally anti-town, unwilling to cooperate or claim.
This is basically the perfect D1 lynch. He could flip town and our win odds probably go up.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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lol no... like massively no.In post 812, Mulch wrote:First things first: I joined this game partly because Io was obvious town, and I expect to be treated as such.
Not with those flips. Vedith was an excellent borderline policy lynch I would do again in an instant but with the scum flip it makes things interesting since those were the top wagons.
Need to reread a bit. Probably in AUN/Io but want to make sure.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Cool. More self-meta.In post 837, Mulch wrote:I can see this coming from villa because usually villa first reaction to me declaring myself conftown is to push back even though it's NAI/towny for me.
I have zero problem saying Vedith was in part a policy lynch. If a player is publicly going to be a nuisance and toe the line of being useless in a game I will always be on board to lynch them unless they are blindly obvious town. Worst case you lose a liability, best case scum dies. Statement is essentially a "see this is why we don't troll, lets play the game" comment.The part about the policy lynch is a little scummy imo because it's already looking like you are subtly trying to give an excuse for your behavior on Vedith. nobody really brought it up, or gave you heat, so why are you already trying to rationalize it?
Io was a good scum chance after the flips because of:
Their entire stance leading up to the end of the day was "Vedith is scum and Carcalilly with him" but also that if Vedith was town, he could immediately drop the case on Carcalilly.Except I said I would only vote Carca is Verdith was scum because the case of Carca being scum on her own is not very strong at all in my opinion.
The only reason im not already voting there is because I read the whole "I hate playing with Vedith" tone that I was feeling all of the first day. Its genuine, just not as sure if scum would be too likely to make that statement genuinely.
Why wouldn't I make a case on Carcalilly? I was explicitly asked by AUN as to why I thought they were also scum after stating that I thought Vedith was more likely scum but Carcalilly was a great partner pick. The entire wagon on them started because AUN pushed back on my scum read there and I defended it. That's why Io and AUN are my preferred picks.Mulch wrote:Contains the stuff that's sort of giving like "here is some arguements for Vedith, here is for Carc" etc, and combined with the fact that they made that case on Carc and then ended up voting Vedith is bad.
Both were cross voting while refusing to explain reads in a way that had any sort of merits (Carcalilly was sheeping me, Vedith was something like "shut up im right"). Sometimes when dealing with players who don't really give much information you just have to be blunt and sometimes they actually start responding.
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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I am very pro-policy lynch. That is not at all a secret. The site needs to me more willing to policy lynch players who act like Vedith did this game.In post 862, Mulch wrote:And on a similar point @llama- basically, you've reiterated that you had scumreads on Vedith/policy on Vedith and Carca too, etc, but my point is mostly that you made this big stuff on Carca and then your vote basically wasn't there when it mattered and instead you opted for your policy, and that in my experience it's very often for scum to try and hedge and try to seem like they are weighing all options then choose to vote the person not their partners in the end. There's very little you can say to try to change my mind about this, although I would like to continue to hear your thoughts. (And the strawman dosen't help)
Not even sure what you want me to say. I made my case on Vedith as what little content he had was scummy. I defended attacks on my reads that Carcalilly was scum independently of Vedith and worked even better as a artner. I got my top scum read lynched when he outwardly refused to start giving reads or doing anything else productive.
Unprompted and used defensively, self-meta is a scum tell. Its funny especially in this game since we already saw scum using it as a defense. If its theory discussion its null.Mulch wrote:First: A serious question. Do you scumread self meta, or are you just saying that as a buzzword?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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First you all still post way too much. Lots of players on this site have day jobs and essentially have zero access for half the day. If it really needs to be said I will never post from about 7-6 PST because I have a desk job, I can at times read from work, but posting is one of those "extreme emergency only" things. I thought after we got rid of two major offenders for not realizing that during the first cycle it would help, apparently not.
More so though:
Vote Mulch
Few things basically
1) He is far more concerned about people thinking they are town than actually pushing for scum early. Especially after I call them one of my top picks for scum early in the day. Not getting lynched is the first priority of scum. Pushing for lynches is the first priority of town.
2) Massive hypocrisy throughout his posts. He says I am scum for hedging my bet (after essentially bringing my "partner" from no votes to a top wagon) but after trying to argue against players calling me town, he doesn't vote me and expresses frustration at people who are. He attacks alban for saying that the tone for Carcalilly was natural and its something that can be faked, and then start basing reads (town and scum) on others based of their tone.
Most of it lies with Io though. If he really thought he was replacing into a town slot that must have been a great reaction when he got that PM. First look at the Carcalilly and Io interactions. There is basically none but we get some gems such as Carcalilly calling Io town and then being unable to really provide a reason for it. This one is big though when you relate it to later posts
Remember self-meta, Carcalilly was big on that one.In post 235, Io wrote:
You know, while I don't really like it when people self meta what's the point of this?In post 220, Carcalilly wrote:That self meta tho
I don't really see it as a scum tell which is what I think you are implying because I know there are people out their who genuinely believe that giving self meta can clear them as town.
That was something that happened earlier. So of course Io is going to say something about it, especially as they were fence sitting for a long time before deciding that the only way Carcalilly was scum was if Vedith was scum right? Yeah that point went completely ignored.In post 578, LlamaFluff wrote:In post 285, Carcalilly wrote:When I'm scum I usually just focus on when someone mentions me or my scumpartner, and not care about the rest of the game. ^In post 577, Carcalilly wrote:
I can see scum using it more than town.In post 576, LlamaFluff wrote:
Quick question - is Self-meta a scumtell to you?In post 220, Carcalilly wrote:self
Io also essentially did the same thing to Carcalilly in reverse, just said "yeah they are town" early on, and then when the case started being pushed on them, just latched onto interactions between Carcalilly and Vedith as a reason to push on Vedith, but also as a reason to denounce the Carcalilly wagon outside of a scum flip from Vedith (obviously something they would know isn't happening).
There are also quite a few things that are very out of place when trying to defend Carcalilly from the mounting pressure such as:
Very odd to not bring up Io was also voting MM here. Its also not really calling Carcalilly town, or anything they did as a towntell, just trying to debunk a reason.voting MM4 can easily be chalked up to being flustered which I don't see as a tell for either town or scum. It's just really not a solid case to say that she is scum for not voting MM4 when making a push on him.
Even more interesting is how Io jumped on Vedith. After basically the entire game of zero interaction, sans a joke comment, Vedith gets brought up late and is actually slightly defended
[/quote]In post 505, Io wrote:Either way there is no reason to vote him [Vedith] for an obvious fake claim.
In fact, during the defense of Carcalilly post, Io is the first time she at all shows a read on Vedith as scum, and that is just a sheep of some of my logic. Most of the talk regarding him is "Unless they are scum Carcalilly is town" talk. Even more when the one point they are heavily sheeping me on is "they only add clutter and don't contribute" it seems odd that it took both him and Carcalilly being under immense pressure before Io acted on it. If you want to defend a scum partner though by sacrificing town, its a good time to jump into the fray.
I completely understand frustration with having to deal with a player like him. That should be obvious from my posts alone, but after ignoring Vedith and implying he is at very worst a null read and pressure on him is bad for a majority of the game, only to suddenly turn it around when him and a scum player starts nearing a lynch reads like scum who woke up and realized their partner would be dead if they didn't do something soon, and saw the better option trying to jump on a somewhat similar wagon "low content player who reads scummy" for a mislynch hoping that we equate the same thing with town the next day.
Mulch has all out of whack priorities for town and is being hypocritical to boot. Carcalilly ignored Io basically the entire game. Io put Carcalilly as a town read early and then when pressure mounted suddenly jumped on Vedith using him to shield attacks on Carcalilly.
I like this vote.
Also self-meta is absolutely a scum tell. It is overwhelmingly easy to fake meta, even most weak players can do it and could easily pull some out in their favor for any sort of situation. If you are explaining theory as to why you do something, that's a different story. Saying "yeah I always do X", especially if that is something people tend to read as scum, is definitely a scum tell.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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So did you have no Io read from day one?In post 962, WhyMafia wrote:OH FOR KRIFF SAKE I THOUGHT I HAD A HANDLE OF MULCH AND YOU JUST MURKED IT UP
Ok awaiting Mulch response-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Why distance and put in efforts for it if I was scum and then not follow through? It seems pointless to bring a scum partner from no votes to exceedingly lynchable and then voting town over the wagon, because that results in people saying I am scum the next day.In post 965, Steel wrote:I believe llama is deciding to scumread slots and then as an experienced player very easily casing them to serve that purpose, or in carcalilly's case distancing.
Yeah I probably *could* come up with most players being scum if I really wanted to (which is why the alban push confuses me since I think that is almost the hardest case to force a scum read on), but I don't know how you want me to respond to something like that.
Building reads is what cases are. I say player X is scum and give reasoning. They respond and I either adjust my read or continue to push if it doesn't change my mind. When you have people like Vedith who essentially refuse to respond, it doesn't change anything. I do not remotely take kindly to people who take joking around to the point where they are not playing the game.I think there is more back and forth in organic reads, more of a struggle. Here on mulch/io, but on vedith especially yesterday I got that impression as well.
Also please use the "preview" button people....-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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1) You read postsIn post 969, Mulch wrote:FYI that is not how real scumreads shoudl form, which is probably why you are failing in it so far. You should look at people and see scumyness and then scumread them, not scumread them and make cases afterwards...
2) You think "Player X looks like scum"
3) You say so and vote the player with the reasons
4) They respond (or in some cases don't)
5) You reevaluate
Need to get stuff done but after what I can try to figure out from all the broken quote tags, I like my vote even more.
I don't even...Mulch wrote:I mean obviously it's super hard to townread Llama and to not OMGUS them immediately when they make an hour long post on me, have been locked on me scum since day 1, haven't read my posts, and have confirmation bias up the wazoo, but unfortuantely some players are like that.
I explicitly called Io town for just about all of day one. I called Vedith, AUN and Caralilly scum. Today I said AUN is still a good scum pick, but due to flips you are better (lynching both probably ends the game). How is anything you are saying here true?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Its just the hypocritical stuff like this:
In post 820, Mulch wrote:Awesome had absolute shit hedging at the end and their tone is fake as fuckIn post 841, Mulch wrote:I sort of liked his tone and his thought process otherwise in the game though
Calls AUN scum for tone. Calls me townish for town. Then says calling a player town for tone is dumb because its easy to fake.In post 844, Mulch wrote:"His tone appeared most natural" is something that is valid but also something that is REALLY easy for scum to fake.
Tells only apply when he wants them to, and never to him.
Also even if Mario didn't vote Carcalilly... how is the only player that she ever voted that seemed to be serious apart from sheeping me late going to be scum? That alone makes Mario most town in the game to me. I don't see scum being silent on reads apart from calling their partner scum up until the day is essentially over.
You also need to re-check your Ctrl+F. There are a few posts near the end where Io started getting into "I would only vote Carcalilly if Vedith was scum" and then a snap turn from "voting Vedith over the claim is bad" to "he is cluttering the game and needs to be lynched"-
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Because you invalidate anything you have based on tone right there.In post 995, Mulch wrote:Llama. What do you not understand. About tone being a valid way to read people but also something really easy for scum to fake? I don't understand why this can't go through your brain.
"valid way to read someone" - fine if you buy that
"easy for scum to fake" - means that any tone reads are useless
Pocketing is not a term that is common here. I literally have never seen it in almost ten years. I think you are looking for "buddying" which is a really weak tell, especially that early in the game and with not much to gain from doing such. Its a more valid tell when you are directing it at a power player in a more pivotal point in the game, not near RVS stage.
I am pushing on Mario because I have zero idea how he is below WM, and I think its really easy to call him town above Steel. Are you trying to just aruge all three of those are obv-town to you?
Massclaim shouldn't happen with a vig flip. If there were other flips we could talk about it but never with that flip.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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A valid tell is not something that can be easily faked. Its at best an exceedingly weak tell by your own logic, yet you mention to multiple times very early on. When you immediately undercut your own tell it becomes a joke tell like people trying to argue "over reaction"In post 1002, Mulch wrote:WHat is wrong that you can't understand that it's valid and also easy for scum to fake??????????
What is the logic gap here? What don't you understand? I am in shock here, what is not understand that goes through your brain that thinks these are mutually exclusive???
Sort of? He voted him for about 24 hours early in D1. Then moved to Scorpious. Then to Vedith. Then to me ater I pushed Vedith. Then to Carcalilly after I started pushing them.Mulch wrote:Steel was the main person on Carca all game? Unless they hard bussed day 1 with possible 2 scum, I heavily doubt he's scum.
Volume wise he didn't do much to push the wagon, even if he planted himself there most of the day.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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We don't disagree that tone is easy to fake. What we disagree with is that tone is actually anything you can use in a read. You have called people out as having fake tone and good tone, while stating that it is something that is very easy to fake. Saying something that is very easy to fake has anything to do with a read makes no sense. Its just kneecapping your own tell and it feels like filler instead of something you actually believe.In post 1009, Mulch wrote:This post is bad because it has no analysis and no solving and is just level one stuff, all that is easy for scum to fake. Which INCLUDES tone. Which is valid.
Also why are you voting alban over AUN? I still am confused about alban-scum reads and still have him in that middle pack.-
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I don't have time today but can someone go back and find any posts from players still alive that explicitly talked about three scum? It should be exceedingly obvious from the vig flip three scum cant be the case (just in case if it wasn't from 11P) and want to compare experience levels for people making a bad assumption.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Yay theory! This is really my favorite part of the game so there are a few reasons:
1) There are only eleven players. If it was 3:8 to start, town only has three mislynches. Town needs 50% lynch accuracy. Not happening unless pretty much everyone else who is town is an IC or all in a giant mason group or something like that.
2) Vigs are anti-town (trying to balance game wise). In normal games that include a vig, town win rate immediately drops and vig accuracy overall is worse than random. You would need a TON of power (again) to balance out that role. Additionally if D1 was a town lynch and N1 vig hit town, D2 is essentially mylo. If town mislynches and vig doesn't hit scum its over N2. Side note odd number of players. Reviewers would have taken into account that vig dying N1 without another way to stop a kill removes a lynch from town. Vig should *never* shoot if its likely that they change the game from odd to even numbers of players.
3) One more thing that I don't want to talk about before we massclaim because it could give scum pointers.
With all that, I think it has been exceedingly obvious that there are only two scum D1 just given the small number of players. When you add the flip, I see zero way there are three scum.
There are a lot of newer players in this game and three scum was discussed WAY too much to have it all be clever scum who thought ahead enough to fake setup speculation errors. I want to pick through who came up with a very incorrect assumption, and see what looks genuine and what doesn't.
@Scorp - MM4 is town. Stop that. Carcalilly who never did much proactive in pushing cases does not spend a majority of their effort pushing on their partner, especially again as there are only two scum here.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Oh yes. Because telling scum what types of roles are almost out of the question to be in the game is a smart thing to do before massclaim.In post 1082, Mulch wrote:
This is super Lamist and scummy, AGAIN.In post 1078, LlamaFluff wrote:
3) One more thing that I don't want to talk about before we massclaim because it could give scum pointers.
Still think you are scum. Remember, I work full time at the office so basically have time between getting home and before I am off for the night to post. Due to that, fewer very high content posts. Most of your responses have been "you are stupid stop tunneling" in response, so I don't really care about those because its just OMGUS, insults and threats. That makes you far MORE scum by itself because again, it seems your top priority in the game is not being lynched, bar none. Can probably get more done tomorrow because im trying to get into the office early and leave early to have more time to get posts together as tonight its basically just posts while cooking.Llama why do you still have your vote on me? Have you read my posts? Do you disagree with them? Why are you insisting on keeping your vote with me when I've answered all of your qualms to the point that you literally have no response to them? Why are you insisting on being so stubborn on the off chance of being a hero when even BEFORE I totally explained everything you had problems with you STILL were considering between me and someone else (i forget who). What the fuck? Stop tunneling and reconsider and admit your wrong
Also your response is very non-user friendly. Its just broken quotes. If you aren't going to put in any effort to make it legible it takes longer to respond. Preview button exists for a reason.
OMG are you willingly tunneling on everything I do, I never said that stop trying to imply anything that I do is scummy or needs to be questions. This hero tunneling stuff makes you more scum stop it or I will keep voting you.Llama explain your Alban townread, Scorpious explain your awesome townread
Yeah... sarcasm aside I never did call him town. He is aggressively null for me and pretty much in the same camp as Scorp where if both you are AUN are town, then it probably turns into one of those two.-
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tl;dr
Mulch spends a full page of posting that he thinks the only way I could vote him is I am scum. So basically a full page of rage OMGUS, trying to threaten people, and declaring anyone who doesn't agree with anything he says is scummy.
Good few notes from that little meltdown though
1) Mulch acknowledges I am probably town, and is willing to "lose the game".... when the probably D4 lynch in his hypothetical is alban... who Mulch says is scum. Basically just bluster.
2) Apparently refusing to give scum info about what to/what not to fakeclaim is a scum tell. Nothing to do with time. Reasoning is quick. Logic is not something newbie scum will see.
3) When he is trying to be more threatening, its 3 scum. When he starts trying to get logical its 2 scum. Again pointless noise and bending the view of the game in multiple directions to benefit him as needed.
4) He actually stops caring about lynching scum halfway through his rant and its just trying to make me back down. His entire rant is just an attempt at self-preservation, not reads.
You should really stop spamming up the game. It basically leaves people like me who don't have unlimited time in a situation where the choices are to keep reading your post or go back and make big cases without sacrificing what little free time in a normal day is available.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Lets see if you can actually respond to stuff without ruining quote tags this time, because every time you do it takes an extra 30 minutes or so for me to fix everything and respond.
Comes into the game and immediately says the should be obviously town. Gripes for almost 200 posts about me saying they are scum. Yeah that is obviously you spending all of your time scum hunting. Notice immediately he is trying to discredit anything I say as well by saying I am not reading it. I don't like reading this high noise to low content dreck, but I do because there are still tells in it.Wrong. I've been trying to find scum the entire game, and I also want to be considered town. You are wrong that only scum care about being townread, town and scum care about being townread. 99% of my posts are trying to find scum; you don't need to focus on that singular post in the beginning. I have doubts your reading everything I'm saying because I post a lot and you dislike that style of play.
So... WIFOM defense? Scum has one goal in the game - not getting lynched. Nothing else matters as long as one scum doesn't get lynched so more stock needs to be put into it. Ignoring pushes can be a tactic, discrediting pushes can be a tactic, threating people can be a tactic, making so much noise you drown out everyone else can be a tactic. Town has one goal in the game - get all the scum lynched. When you stop paying attention to the goal and focusing on staying alive (NOT part of town win condition) you are scum.The SCUM reaction to being called scum early is to ignore it and try to buddy the fuck up to you or call you out or shit. The TOWN reaction is to take offense and try to change it because they CARE. Scum try to seem like they don't care, town actually care. You NEED to realize this because you fucking made an entire wall post when I called you scum to defend as well, and once you have locked onto me as scum you haven't changed anything at all and havent commented on everything except to defend yourself from my attacks, which proves you care again. Man up and realize that your stereotypical scum tells are wrong.
Blah blah again. If something is easily faked its not a good tell....Tone is a fine reason to scumread someone but is also easily faked from scum. It's worth going into
So your best defense as to why the interaction is TvS is a basically RVS stage "town" post from Carcalilly direted at Io?In terms of the IO/Carca interactions, there are some valid points here. When I skimmed over it I saw some obvious pocketing instances from Carca onto IO, which I think you should look over. The one specific instances you brought up with self meta isn't actually something scummy imo.
Excellent to note here that Mulch is saying that I am scum for what even they say is the exact same thing Io did.The vote hedging and choosing Vedith obviously looks scummy in hindsight but to be fair you did it too, and a lot of people did it, and all I can say is IO must have truly thought Vedith was more scummy than Carca.
Town wants to look town. Town does not melt down when they are read as scum. Also self-meta is absolutely a scum tell, this game already proved it.I don't have out of whack priorities, you have out of whack scumread techniques and I have NATURAL prioritizies, like I want to look like I am town. Every town wants that. YOU want that because you defend yourself. And self meta is not a scumtell. It just isn't.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 1137, Mulch wrote:
This is another lie. Please show me where I said this.In post 1131, LlamaFluff wrote: 1) and is willing to "lose the game"
There are eight alive. Two lynches and two NKs are four alive. If there are three scum, you say you are willing to lose the game over this. When you later start trying to argue you don't know how many scum there are, this is you saying you are willing to lose the game if you are town.You've in all likeihood lost us the game and are basically in effect FORCING me to vote you, and if we are bogth town we both go in the mislymches one after another and we fucking lose if there are 3 scum
Oh so you were "making a point" about willing to go to lylo where your top read would be lynched out of principle.First off, town do not know that Alban is scum. Town SUSPECT that alban is scum. Do you think I know for 100% that Alban is scum?
Besides that, the point I was making about your scummyness had nothing to do with Alban. It was that you were already making pre flips and chaining lynches.
How is me saying "if Mulch and AUN are town, its probably in alban/Scorp" any different then you making a read list where you literally put every lynch preference in order? I have three town reads. I have two scum reads. I have two players I don't have much of a read on.
So you saying "this is a really bad post" means you have no read off of it? Really?This is a LIE. Tell me where I say this. A flat out LIE.
Once again, it's that you were being LAMIST that is scummy, not this. Again.
I would bet the entire game right now there are only two scum, its really basic balance, especially with the vig flip.How the fuck are you sure if there are 2 scum or 3 scum? How are you that confident?
Why are you voting alban anyway? All I see from you seeming to call him the most town out of your initial block of three (lining up lynches zomg!) and then seem to sheep WM logic that alban left a vote on Vedth for too long and didn't take it off as the wagon blew up. When did he even pass AUN and why? You lead with saying AUN is a better lynch and then its "well I don't care alban is fine too" later. The most you ever explain that is "his responses are bad"... and basically leave it at that. You even are outwardly telling Scorp to look elsewhere at one point and trying to direct him off alban onto AUN.
So you think someone responding to an attack of "I always do X as town" when what they are doing is inherently scummy is NOT a scum tell or at very least an "I am intentionally going to play anti-town guys" tell?Mulch wrote:And self-meta is not a scumtell, just because one person did it as scum, sweetie, does not mean that everyone does.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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8 people. 1 scum. 7 town. We both go down, we go to LyLo. If 8 people, 2 scum, 6 town, we lose if we both go down. That's it. It's not hard, it's like first grade math.
And if there are THREE scum in your hypothetical, (like you said, and I even bolded for you) it would be a loss (like you said). If there are TWO scum (like I said) it would not be a loss.You've in all likeihood lost us the game and are basically in effect FORCING me to vote you, and if we are bogth town we both go in the mislymches one after anotherand we fucking lose if there are 3 scum
So yes. That is you blatantly saying that if there are three scum you would be willing to lose the game.
Because I'm not saying, hey let's lynch A, and if he flipps town, lynch B, then C! And then we win!
I'm saying I want to lynch A right now, and I don't have a lynch order set after (ie, pre flips), because I am FLUID and am willing to CHANGE
Your read listMario, Steel, WhyMafia
[Everyone else]
[Llama]
Alb, Awesome, Scorpious
My read listTown: Mario, Steel, WM
Null: alban, Scorp
Scum: Mulch, AUN
Boy that formatting sure looks similar doesn't it.
I said there is another reason there are obviously two scum but don't want to talk about it until after a masslcaim. You are saying that is me trying to look town so it is scummy. Therefore talking about a reason that shouldn't be talked about until after massclaim is scummy. No?I said you were scummy. You were scummy. What are you even saying
Also how is the only big point on alban being ignored? Even what Mulch just said misses probably the biggest point and is why alban would be my #3. If anything THIS is why he is scum, nothing that you are trying to shove.
alban wrote:After writing this though, I think maybe there's no harm in giving out a reads list. Here goes. Word of caution: this is pretty impressionistic. I will fine tune or even do a complete overhaul once I re-read and form some solid opinions. Till then:
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Vedith
Carcalillyalban wrote:Carca, some defence will be welcome.
No hammering before Carca speaks.alban wrote:What a bunch of losers.
Why hammer over a weekend you morons?
Vedit/Carcalilly top two reads to "let Carclilly defend (implying claim too)" to "how dare you hammer (what was their top read 24 hours prior)" to "alban was my RV"Yeah and 5 more people including my rv stayed on someone so obvious town. On my part, it was simply laziness. Plus I didn't visit the page over the weekend. So, didn't see the tally building up.
Its not that he was "unhappy he couldn't take the vote off" as a tell but its "why would he have wanted to given his reads"-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Running up to end of day (last ~48 hours)In post 1166, Mulch wrote:I don't understand your Albban scumread, dumb it down for me. The only part I get is the not unvoting Vedith and the vote hedging.
1) He posted a read list with Vedith at the top and Carcalilly close behind (had gap following it)
2) Carcalilly got pressure and he without really showing any change in reads started trying to push them to defend themselves. Not bad but just seemed a bit out of place to make that comment on your second pick. So no change on read published.
3) After Vedith got lynched (about 24 hours after the request for Carcalilly defene) he thinks it was a bad one and is upset his top scum read (as was last stated) got lynched.
4) alban notes it was his "RV" after he put Vedith at the top of his reads list 48 hours prior, and never showed any signs of that having changed. Feels like shirking responsibility to me. Even if it was his RV, his other posts sure makes it look like a real vote later.
THAT is the reason alban is scum if he is scum. And its why he is my third pick. Just putting that together splits him and Scorp up onto different tiers between town and scum... would consider alban over AUN if it showed up sitationally.
Okay that actually made me laugh.alban wrote:He a manipulative one, and you an idiot with anger management issues.
I do actually have him as scum though (primarily due to Io play). Its why im voting him.alban wrote:And, this despite the fact that bot of you are null-reading each other.-
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While he is here...
@alban - What changed for you between the point where you listed Vedith and Carcalilly as your top two scum reads and the point where Vedith self-hammered?-
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Yeah im back to not really wanting to lynch alban after he explained his list was basically all of the common reads reversed and not a scum->town list.
Still like Mulch vote mostly for Io stuff. Was poking around to try and find some people arguing three scum (Io was a two scum team assumption player but I think they are strong enough to expect that if town).
This bugs me abit too from Io. I was calling it a town tell if anyone in the "fake clear" group was scum as Scorp seemed to actually buy it. Instead we have Io pushing back on a town tell and seeming to have a problem with a vote from a scum suspect on the wagon they are showing intention to place at L-1. Its just off. If a scum read jumps on a wagon, its a reality check time and not "ignore it" time.Side note: I also don't really agree with you Llama when it comes to Scorpious. His last few posts aren't screaming town to me and his vote on Verdith is basically him declaring Verdith is scum for a NAI reason. Honestly all of his reads this game have felt terrible and based on bad reasoning.
I just want to hear from people I trust the reads of at this point.-
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Im getting flustered... too many town reads.
Apart from Mulch, I think just about any wagon is has major flaws right now. AUN even has a few redeeming posts near the end of day on a reread.
@AUN - Why did you not ever vote near the end of the day?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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So then they faked thinking the Vedith claim was probably real to you? Because remember scum knew it was fake immediately. I could see scum acting like it was real if they can pull it off, but it would require a new player who could feign ignorance of the role existing + know that they should fake thinking it was real in that situation.In post 1202, Mulch wrote:Scopious has really great confidence and tone, but when you look into their posts they are sorta shit and also pretty town grabby. He's also just literally refusing to do anything and is not participating at ALL and is baseing his reads off good reasons but nothing to support. I want more.
The strongest case in that direction is how Carcalilly and Scorpious ignored each other the entire game, even then it turns into more of a "PoE if everyone else is town" thing.-
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His reactions D1 to the whole claim situation seem to glaze over it initially, and when it was forced out that it was a fake his posts showed that he had actually believed the claim, which would have "cleared" his partner.In post 1206, Mulch wrote:I don't even remember them faking anything lmao remember I replaced in after day 1 and just skimmed the game.
So again, you think he decided to fake believe it as opposed to a player who heard of a new role for the first time just looking it up and assuming it was real? I have a bit of a hard time buying that Scorpious saw what he knew was a fake claim, and then decided to ignore it but return to vote Vedith for fakeclaiming later trying to pass it off as he was duped when just sheeping people on the wagon would have been far easier. Its not a super strong town tell, but I don't buy that one without a strong case. Town or scum, I think his posts would be similar in trying to keep up with a game while too busy in real life.
I still think the only real reason to call Scorpious scum is that the interactions between him and Carcalilly were non-existent.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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If you buy that why are you calling Scorpious scum? They ignored each other.In post 1210, Mulch wrote:Carcalilly likes talking to their partners a decent amount as scum btw. Check out ThinkBig's mini normal
Because not having time is not a scumtell. Because asking questions is not a scumtell. The only thing that can at all be called a scumtell in what you quoted is not giving reads.In post 1211, Mulch wrote:Why don't you think the quotess I just posted are damning?
Its been day two for 72 hours. Just because you are averaging a post every 20 minutes since the day started doesn't mean everyone has time to do that. When his posting rate hasn't changed much the entire game, that is a complete null tell.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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You can just useto close off quote brackets in the future. It tends to make everything flow better than making a dozen individual points or risking more breaks in formatting by using bold.Code: Select all
[/quote]
Anyway.
I just am wondering why even bring that up when it conflicts with your vote. Carcalilly basically ignored everyone but Vedith and MM all of day one until they were under a lot of pressure.Because of the other scummy stuff? IDK what you want from me man. Meta is also changeable, so it's not the end all be all. But it does point towards towny points in Scorpy's direction.
I have no problem asking alban about reads and even saying a "which of X would you vote" because trying to figure out the reads of others, and match that to what they are saying for consistency, is a good thing. Even more if the player in question is being vague about reads, being direct abut it is a good thing. Its not a town tell or a scum tell. Its trying to extract information which is a good thing, just not a tell either way.
The only post I you quoted I have any problem with is the "reads lists are bad" which can be true in certain scenarios, but in this case makes sense as there are a concensus group of town reads that the majority of the game holds, and given the player state it really only helps-
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Well also replacing out tactically is blatantly against site rules and a bannable offense. Both replace outs read far more "rage quit" at face value though.
@Mulch - You are saying you read Scorp as scum, but at the same time are implying that you will unvote if he responds to the million little posts you made. Which is it?-
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So you are tunneling on him until he responds?In post 1254, Mulch wrote:I'm not unvoting unless he responds, and if he responds I may or may not unvote depending on his response.
What part of "Your responses do nothing to make me think you are town and between your play and the Io-Carcalilly interactions still think you are scum" do you not get?Because, unlike you, I might change my read if I see something I like or don't like, and I'm going to try and find the stuff for BOTH sides of the arguement, so I can ba accurate, instead of deciding ooh he is scum! and then trying to fit a case around the narrative.
WM is town for D1 play.Mulch wrote:Llama this may be a revolutionary thought, but why don't you try and analyze someone other than me (say, the Whymafia Alban Scorpious) and see who is scummy there?
:Mindblown:
Alban is town lean after realzing that his list read was town->scum (as their entire read list was inverse of the consensus) as I don't think he hard defends his partner day one when momentum shifts that way. Same with Carcalilly when trying to be productive to save their own lives starts pushing alban (who would be a partner) instead of the easy out in Vedith who they "saw" as scum.
Ive already explained Scorp-townish read.
So none of them. All are town to null-town.
Lots of town reads. You are scum though, and the only one, so it probably explains the number of town reads.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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You do realize the same applies to you... literally I think we are at a point where a majority of the scum night actions are forced just based on reads, which is another reason we shouldn't massclaim too early.In post 1259, Mulch wrote:Your scum's greatest asset if you are town, and if we lynch wrong today I'm 100% sure your not the nightkill, or your scum. Those are the 2 options-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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if you think so highly of yourself that you will ever be NKed based on being read as town... there is no point in engaging. At *best* you are the consensus 4th town read or maybe tied with WM (unless a kill doesn't happen there are three NKs at best), if you force through a mislynch today that will be a thing of the past FAST too. If you are at all slightly wrong on reads too, scum just has to stay on you good side and you will scream down anyone.In post 1263, Mulch wrote:i'm literally townread by most everyone except you, so if you didn't exist I would be one of the town's greatest asset, probably even a nightkill, instead your turning me into a negative utility as the tunneled
Also side note that probably should be brought up just incase... if there is a town RB/JK we should be massclaiming today as we get a free clear out of it.
We lynch Mulch. Io has horrible interactions with Carcalilly, especially around the Vedith lynch. Mulch hasn't been a beacon of town, they are just loud in an attempt to look like they have more points than they really have. Even if I ignore massive theory differences on what should be done as town and decide to call them null tells based on flawed logic, I still read him as scum. That lynch should end the game. If not we massclaim D3 and probably are able to put a bow on the game at that point.alban wrote:Mulch, to be town's greatest asset, you will need to provide a way fwd.
So, if you have a plan, let's focus on that. Whom do we lynch, where do we go from there if a mislynch, and the works.
Llama, same for you.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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I will take that as a "not RB/JK" claim as well. Because if we have one I really think it ends the game for us because we just park them on AUN or someone like that.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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I would LOVE it if scum NKed you if you are town... it would give town a chance to be productive instead of you essentially screaming half of the game into contentless posting as they try to catch up. Which is exactly why (apart from most people having you null town to null scum) it would never happen. That and other things which mean you should really stop posting angry if town. If you are scum please keep doing it because it could trap you later.In post 1270, Mulch wrote:How about we lynch you, and then I am nightkilled because nobody else is dumb enough to scumread me, and then problem solved?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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So im supposed to vote a town read?In post 1275, Mulch wrote:Why would I ever be nightkilled when Llama is dead set on tunneling me for the entire game?
Steel is town. MM is town. WM is town. Alban is probably town. Scorp is probably town. AUN is null read. You are a scum read.
You keep complaining about ego, but apparently are incapable of realizing that I read you as scum and just about the rest of the game as town. Am I supposed to start questioning my town reads and voting them? Nothing you have done makes me think you are town to a point where I should be voting anywhere else.
You push on Scorpious is enough to be a reason to scum read you on its own. Most of it is "you didn't respond to all of my posts" or null tells and you basically refuse to summarize it, which should be the easiest thing in the world for you to do if its something you actually believe. When you make 200 posts in a couple of days is REALLY hard to find anything when you just go "I said it already".
Just respond to him and actually be productive. Multiple players are stating that you are making it very hard to play the game with you due to your posting style. Even if you are saying that one of them is scum, that is about a third of the TOWN complaining about your playstyle making it either not fun to play the game or difficult to. Take a hint.