Mini Normal 1931 | Endgame

[Thor665]

With three PR claims and 1 soft it is insane that we're continuing discussion without a full claim at this stage.
There are a number of ways that a full claim helps theory sort the current mish-mash, and scum being locked into lies now is highly beneficial on multiple fronts.

With frog as the last full claimer I strongly suggest he popcorns to someone, and they full claim (role and any actions) and popcorn to someone else to then claim.

Eddie also needs to so strongly pull back on his whine about bad play, as he appears to be basing it off one speed derp wagon while not actally suggesting any of that is scum in a functional way which is the easiest explanation for 50% of the derp and doesn't require lying as a wagon theory nor intentionally playing like scum when a Doc who isn't crumbing

[Thor665]

I will also point out that at the moment it is entirely possible for all the current claims to be town, or for up to two of them to be scum, and people should stop making broad claims about them until we get a bit more info - or at least be honest that they're making assumptions.

[Thor665]

@Flavor - a question for you (and please ask the Mod to clarify if your role PM doesn't) are there any of your effects that the loyalty modifier would be announced on other than the Cop?

[Thor665]

i.e - say you rolestop a Mafioso - would the mod let you know your power didn't work?

[Thor665]

I already did. My role has nothing to do with Eddie/FL. Other than that there is no reason for me to claim. Una is being an idiot(or scum trying to rolefish).

You are incorrect on multiple game theory levels with this response unless you think 2+ of the current claims are scum, and even if you think that more claims will help the rest of town to realize that info as well, which would strongly benefit town's wincon.
Also, even if you don't see your claim adding any info, it adds potential info to a different town PR, and also adds info for game balance analysis.

Claim please, and then popcorn.
I will also accept a description of how mass claiming is a bad move at this stage of the game with analysis of specifically why that is objectively something that someone who doesn't know your role can assess. Because anything else is clearly silly to even debate.

I will also note that if you don't claim there are clearly enough people to put you to L-1 to force it BUT TOWN DOESN'T HAVE THE TIME TO WASTE DOING THAT AND IT'S ANTI-TOWN TO OBLIGATE IT.

Make sense? If not please read my answer below, which also helps explain why info on the table is valuable now in general as well as in specific.

I will also point out that at the moment it is entirely possible for all the current claims to be town

Explain a scenario where all of frog/FL/Eddie are town.

I don't see much reason to hand scum fakeclaims, but, y'know, literally even something as banal as a scum jailkeeper (or town jailkeeper for that record) targeting Eddy allows for literally all their claims to be legit depending on what other claims are out there.
However, a mass claim would clarify that to a certain degree as lack of a town JK claim or any other town protective kill reducing claim would toss that theory out.
But until you can toss that theory out, claims of 'we have at least one scum in three' are utterly unvalid to make at this stage.
Which is why we should finish the mass claim - please add your voice to pressuring OneinaMillion, he is wasting town's time with a Newbie stance, and it should stop.

[Thor665]

@Frog - out of curiosity, what do you consider optimal popcorn strategy?

[Thor665]

In general, not in specific.

[Thor665]

@TwoinaMillion - frankly, based off your relative town position in most people's reads I'm even willing to accept a popcorn from you with a promise to claim last. But failure to claim is absolutely not an option on the table at this juncture.

[Thor665]

I am not willing to let him claim last.
His claim is rather crucial in this specific situation, so if he refuses to claim role, to me he claims scum.

I see no reason to believe that, but look forward to any future explanation of that stance.

I get to explain myself if he claims, until then me explaining my reasoning only gives room for fake-claims and WIFOM.

Then...and here's a wild thought...don't explain your reasoning till after all the claims are in?

I want TwoInAMillion to claim first, otherwise I can't move forward.

Meh.
Do you actually think he's scum? Like, in more than just a random chance way?
Because failure to claim the way he's doing it *might* be scummy, but it also looks like a newb's usual reaction to mass claims also, which makes it hardly alignment telling to me at this stage.

[Thor665]

That's awesome, I fail to see much of an argument there for him claiming first or last, and I agree with you that he has to claim and have said as much very clearly.

[Thor665]

So we agree that any role that can make someone untargetable would create a situation where all three can be town - which is what you challenged me to describe.
What's the boggle exactly?

Also, yes, Twoinamillion will need to claim. He can think we're wrong, and that's fine, but he'll still need to claim or we need to consider him a potential scum soft. Me being willing to have him claim last is a strong vote of support for him, but don't mistake a town read with me being daft and bad at the game.

[Thor665]

There are multiple ways for them to all be town, and the best way to assess that correctly is to finish the mass claim.

[Thor665]

I didn't policy lynch Mulch, so I don't know who you're referring to with "you guys".

I would prefer to think well of people, so I presume Twoinamillion will either put into words an actual advantage to him not claiming, or will recognize that info is more of an advantage to town at this stage than it is to scum and am willing to explain it to him in multiple ways if he seems to keep missing that concept.

In a world where he absolutely refuses to claim, as I said, we need to accept that as a scum soft, because it is pro scum play, and it will assuredly affect lynch options, and we would be dumb to not have it do so.

Do you disagree with these thoughts for any particular reason/see an advantage to this conversation (because I'm missing it).

[Thor665]

I have no intentions of claiming as it will help only scum. And I will not be bullied into doing so.

It will not help only scum,and your refusal/missing/derping/et al to answer my questions, to popcorn, or to discuss the theory you believe as asked is stagnating discussion and game solving.

I have not played in many games in which a massclaim has happened, so I have little experience here. Do you mean what I think is optimal in terms of who dictates the order?

I mean what logic should people use in a popcorn to pick who claims next in your opinion.

I am vanilla townie, I was hoping to deflect a night kill but that won't happen now I guess.

If you are town, and I am dead serious, you need to chat with me after the game is over about the point of fake softs, and the point of mass claims.
If everything you've said is true you wasted about 24 hours for nothing.

I'm almost certain you're a partner. read the wall though and don't reply again til you do

Your theory is that you have outed Flavor scum and Game Replacement has decided to direct lie about Flavor's role in order to doubly kill you?

Okay, so I'm a Rolecop (x shot) and FL is a JOAT. I'm pretty sure Eddie is scum here and that post just seemed like AtE.

I am very frustrated right now because this mass claim is going off the rails very quickly.
Can you please help me get it back on the rails.

I am fine with you obscuring your number of shots - but you really must declare the following;

NIGHT OF ALL ACTIONS ALREADY TAKEN.
TARGET OF ALL ACTIONS ALREADY TAKEN
RESULT OF ALL ACTIONS ALREADY TAKEN.
POPCORN TARGET FOR NEXT CLAIM.

Then we can get some actual progress.
Please and thank you.

[Thor665]

I know you did, read my post and kindly note that I was talking to Game Replacement.

You should read all posts more carefully.

[Thor665]

@Game Replacement - you're posting in other games. Citing Night Actions takes a few moments. Crafting a fake claim takes days. Tick tock.
Also don't forget to popcorn, I know it has been exceedingly hard for everyone to manage that, but it's part of the claim.

[Thor665]

I was posting on my other accounts. I have over 20 games to deal with and a half solved game isn't my priority.

You were also posting on this account, so...

I don't really care who claims next. Just anyone left do it.
I checked FL last night. He's JOAT, and anyone pushing him today I am going to consider as scum.
I'm going into detail more at a later day or my death says it on flip.

Fair enough, that's very good info to have considering other info it's quite interesting.

I'll popcorn for you, because this is apparently still the most complicated thing in the world for people.

@NOTTHEREALPAUL - you're up for the claimage. Please claim, list all actions, targets, results, and (if you dare and are capable) popcorn.

[Thor665]

why is paul next and not you or wave?

Why not?

I actually don't care too much. Scum team is Eddie, Frog, and then likely Una. Would explain Frog and Eddie deciding to come together too.

Why vote Eddie over Frog at this juncture if you believe this? Frog is objectively the one more likely to be scum.
Also, why did Frog claim to back you up and screw over Eddie if they're scumpartners?

I think the point of popcorn is that it's random. But we won't arbitrarily let Paul wait and have others claim first because he could use that information to make a better fake claim. Once he's chosen he has to go.

The point of popcorn is that it's not random.
This game has worked very hard to try to get around that problem, but...

Okay, I could go with Eddie NTRP and Frog then.

All you for the hammer.

I would find a hammer to be MASSIVELY DERP at this stage and would oppose it.
Especially on Eddie at this stage.
Frog or Replacement are the far more obvious and less derp binary choice, and even then I'd rather finish the mass claim.

[Thor665]

TO BE CLEAR - A DERP FAST WAGON HAMMER ON EDDIE IS ANTI-TOWN, STUPID, AND ANNOYING.
DON'T DO IT.

In fact I'd like some of you to unvote and offer your thoughts on Frog v. GameReplacement.

[Thor665]

Look at Frog's and Game's claims.
They cannot both be true.
Ergo - they are an actual binary choice (unlike Eddie/Flavor - which people are treating like a binary choice)

[Thor665]

It's even more interesting, because I feel like Game Replacement didn't notice the issue with his claim, because he never brought up Frog's claim as an issue.

That's why the derp wagon on Eddie is dumb and shouldn't happen at this point in the game, especially with two players not even claimed yet.

[Thor665]

Actually GR did kind of tag Frog, but went after Eddie first for...uncertain reasons.

Pedit - @TwoinaMillion, you need to spend time in a Newbie queue.
Pedit - @Wave - how do you not get it? Describe their claimed night actions to me.

[Thor665]

TO BE CLEAR - A DERP FAST WAGON HAMMER ON EDDIE IS ANTI-TOWN, STUPID, AND ANNOYING.
DON'T DO IT.

In fact I'd like some of you to unvote and offer your thoughts on Frog v. GameReplacement.

This isn't a fast wagon. We've had like 15+ pages of conversation. I shot him with a loyal cop shot and got a no result on him. I don't know which of Frog/GR are lying. Why would I ever go on someone not Eddie?

Because, for starters, if Frog or GR is lying why are both of them backing you up to get Eddie lynched?
Seriously now.

Also, secondly, since we started the day basically going into massclaim and haven't finished it yet, that makes this a quick wagon that is bursting too soon with not enough info, based on false presumptions. It might be a correct conclusion, but the logic is bad and shoddy and people aren't noticing it.

[Thor665]

worst town ive virtually ever played with. i will guarantee scum is in vedith/paul/wave along with leaf

How do you get both Frog and Game as town? They are claiming impossible results for both to be town.

probably quitting mafia for a while cause of this game. thanks for that. you got me and rb, I'm sure you are proud.

If your town game is lying about cases and playing scummy as a Doc without crumbs, I won't miss you
Though, yeah, there are issues in this game - be better and help improve them.

[Thor665]

Actually GR did kind of tag Frog, but went after Eddie first for...uncertain reasons.

Pedit - @TwoinaMillion, you need to spend time in a Newbie queue.
Pedit - @Wave - how do you not get it? Describe their claimed night actions to me.

if frog is scum then he no killed n3. that is too unlikely for me to believe reasonable.

So your theory is Game Replacement is scum?

[Thor665]

the logic is bad and shoddy and people aren't noticing it.

so you finally see how this entire game is. cool.

I have been expressing clear issues with many cases and pushes this game - including yours.
But, yeah, you're right, I just noticed

Talk to me about Game/Frog both town.

[Thor665]

worst town ive virtually ever played with. i will guarantee scum is in vedith/paul/wave along with leaf

How do you get both Frog and Game as town? They are claiming impossible results for both to be town.

probably quitting mafia for a while cause of this game. thanks for that. you got me and rb, I'm sure you are proud.

If your town game is lying about cases and playing scummy as a Doc without crumbs, I won't miss you
Though, yeah, there are issues in this game - be better and help improve them.

I don't think game is town. how can they not both be town? am I missing something?

Only multiple posts already discussing it, including one you're quoting where I mention how their claims can't both work as town.
Why don't you describe their claims to me?
I know one is a watcher and one is a rolecop - now describe who they targeted, when, and what results they got.
Then rework your illogical scumteam theory.

[Thor665]

Actually GR did kind of tag Frog, but went after Eddie first for...uncertain reasons.

Pedit - @TwoinaMillion, you need to spend time in a Newbie queue.
Pedit - @Wave - how do you not get it? Describe their claimed night actions to me.

if frog is scum then he no killed n3. that is too unlikely for me to believe reasonable.

So your theory is Game Replacement is scum?

my theory right now is him Paul and flavor. that requires town wave which idk about

Your wave=scum case was pretty weak and wonky though, so I have no idea why you'd want to cling to it.
Game+Flavor could make sense as scum with you town.
How does Paul tie into them? Is your theory a traitor still, if so who was the traitor, or do you think 3 scum from the get go?

[Thor665]

Oh for some reason I thought last night was night 4, obv it's night 3 so frog said FL wasn't visited. Yeah one of game/frog is lying

Yeah, we know, and people decided to rush lynch Eddie for...reasons.

[Thor665]

Like, no one is even particularly explaining the missed kill last night if Eddie is scum.
It's very painful to watch happen.

[Thor665]

Unlike rb and Eddie though, I have the testicular fortitude not to quit the game and go home to cry to my gal.
I just do the crying to my gal part and skip the quitting

Pedit: @Eddie - You openly lied about me on Game Day 1 to make a case and I think (and have thought) you were town. You don't need to make me work to understand frustration and annoyance with how people have been playing this game.

[Thor665]

this gameisnt a bust if you listen to me. never lynch two/frog. lynching flavor, game, Paul, wave in that order wins. town has a mislynch (thanks to two saves). use it.

I kinda want to lynch Two just to not have to deal with a newb any more.

Why do you think Frog is the more trustworthy of the two cross claims? Didn't you have issues with Skitter?

[Thor665]

Oh jesus, I sort of hate everyone right now. I actually need to wade through this swamp apparently, and do it in a mylo situation, which is just lovely.

Let's start with this;

@TWOINAMILLION - IF YOU ARE TOWN, I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT YOU HAVE BEEN ACTIVELY AIDING THE SCUM TEAM WITH YOUR PLAY THUS FAR. PLEASE CONSIDER YOURSELF LEASHED AS OF NOW. IF YOU WANT TO VOTE OR UNVOTE ANYONE IN THE GAME YOU ARE NOW OBLIGATED TO ASK ME ABOUT IT AND WAIT FOR CONFIRMATION BEFORE YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO SO. THIS IS NOT NEGOTIABLE - THE EVIDENCE FOR WHY YOU NEED TO DO THIS IS YESTERDAY, WHEN YOU DECIDED TO HAMMER A WAGON I WAS OPENLY SAYING WAS DUMB TO DO. YOU DON'T GET TO RUN YOUR OWN SHOW RIGHT NOW. THIS *IS* CONDESCENDING, AND I SLIGHTLY APOLOGIZE FOR THAT - BUT YOU HAVEN'T EARNED YOUR BIG BOY SHOES FOR THE DAY YET.

[Thor665]

Okay, so both Frog and Una are in direct counterclaim to GameReplacement.

...you know what would be awfully nice right now?

@Flavor - it would be awfully nice if we hadn't had a QUICKWAGON and I had Wave's night actions to help me puzzle out who was lying today.
Gosh that would be so helpful for town. I'm so glad we didn't have a QUICKWAGON yesterday based on being scummy and derp.

Okay, so Either both Frog and Una are scum or Game is.
I like Game (well, actually I liked Skitter, I've hated Game) for town, so that is strong potential argument for Game to be town. I have not been overawed by either Frog or Una's play.
That said Una's claim looks very solid (unlike some people who think playing scummy and not crumbing is brilliant town play)

I think we need to look at wagons too.

[Thor665]

We also have a comical amount of PR claims.
I was about to make a comment that actually Flavor could be unconnected to Game, but then it's like, there are so many PR claims it is painfully obvious we have an army of scum in them.

I'm amazed anyone (Flavor) is claiming Wave as a good kill - my theory is scum RB investigated him and so he was killed as a town investigative.
Why would he be a good kill for any other reason?

[Thor665]

Okay, wow, I am feeling very lazy right now I started to do color voting charts and then was just like 'meh'.
But let's start a very serious discussion going on this one;

Vote Count 3.02 - FINAL

Dunkerdoodles

(6): Thor665, wavemode, Eddie Cane[/color], NotTheRealPaul, Game Replacement, Flavor Leaf

(LYNCH)

Not Voting

(4): UnaBombaH, Dunkerdoodles, TwoInAMillion, frog

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-08-25 21:21:00)

Mod Notes:

This looks like a vote count that is VERY HARD for Flavor and Game to argue to me that neither of them are scum and both of frog and Una are scum.
I'd like to see them explain how they're both town here on what was a clear rushed derp lynch.

I'm also going to go look at Eddie's protects with the idea that Flavor is scum, maybe it will help us.

[Thor665]

We also have a comical amount of PR claims.
I was about to make a comment that actually Flavor could be unconnected to Game, but then it's like, there are so many PR claims it is painfully obvious we have an army of scum in them.

I'm amazed anyone (Flavor) is claiming Wave as a good kill - my theory is scum RB investigated him and so he was killed as a town investigative.
Why would he be a good kill for any other reason?

Because Wave was one of Eddie's scum reads, pushed as scum hard. Why are you saying scum RB? At this point, I feel it's have to be scum Una. (Or possible scumGR from the unconfirmed perspectives).

Wave being Eddie's scum read has no bearing on scum's reason to kill Wave - if anything they should leave him alive to be a mislynch.
I'm saying scum RB instead of scum RC because I mistyped.

[Thor665]

Wave was also more likely to stick up for me more so than anyone else not named GR who has me as confirmed town.

Why?

[Thor665]

So Eddie was a

rb
rb
frog

Protection.
With the knowledge that Eddie is town it moves both slots slightly towards more likely town just off circumstantial evidence.
Because I know I'm not trying to predict scum's derp kill choices at this stage.
His frog protect is the big one for me, because that's a night that our JOAT did *not* claim a protect, so literally the only way for Frog to be scum is for scum to have no killed.

@Flavor - want to field this one?

[Thor665]

And if frog is confirmed town, then Game Replacement is absolutely confirmed scum.

@Game Replacement - your move to talk to me also.
I'll wait.

[Thor665]

I am so happy I decided to skip vote analysis.
I feel more awake and focused now.

@TwoinaMillion - your but is still leashed.

[Thor665]

I've accepted that by all means I should be the lynch for the day. I fucked up with my quick lynch on Dunker, and I got roleblocked because of it.

Yeah, okay, but who did scum not kill to allow Frog to frame you?
How would they have known enough - because they'd need to know your loyalty modifier for that plan to work, and neither rolecop is claiming they get that info.

[Thor665]

Okay - can you explain the Dunker wagon?

[Thor665]

I highly doubt you were played like a fiddle.
If you are town you decided for no apparent reason to vote the less provable scum to you.

Pedit - I can explain it if you're scum very easily.

[Thor665]

The fiddle part is simply you pushing very bad logic yesterday if town, in the face of multiple someones pointing out holes in the logic.

So you just rando lynched Dunker without a claim because you wanted to get to your Cop action that badly?
Why didn't you use the Cop power earlier? It was clearly the most potent power you had.

Pedit - yes, he was less provable. I will agree that *after* the Eddie flip a theory town you had a different set of info to work from. Before the flip you chose to willfully ignore that Game and frog were counterclaiming, and neither of their effects allowed roleblocker shenanigans. So, yeah, you knowingly took the bigger gamble for...reasons.

[Thor665]

Also, what part of Una's claim seemed townie to you? I understand I have confbias, but it just seems beyond scummy. I crumbed everywhere as well.

His claim is in direct competition with Game Replacement's, not yours.
I will agree you offered some...debatable crumbs (though your reverse on frog Day 2 bugs me).
But GR's claim was weaksauce - you have to agree with that, yeah?

She misses an action, and night 4 she states she targets someone who also claimed role cop...? That should have been a for sure sign that GR was scum already. I already pointed out where Una posted after GR claimed during the same day and talked as if the claim were true and GR would just be lying about my role, or that it doesn't prove my alignment. Also, Frog's "expect a role cop" thing is damn implies he thinks a role cop claim in this game is ridiculous and nonexistent, when that's what suns claimed, so there is 100% a role cop in this game no matter how you look at it.

The frog thing is bupkiss to my eyes.
I will agree I'd like to see Una explain why they investigated GR.

Thor, I don't want to interrupt your interaction with FL, but one question: is it me being too knowing in term of roles (vanilla on GR), OR am I correct in saying that FL and GR have knitted their claims and narratives so tightly, that FL flipping scum confirms scum!GR?

I see very little confirmed connection there.

Would you like to field the question of why you investigated GR/sounded like you bought the claim yesterday?

[Thor665]

I got tunnely and cocky. I didn't use my cop until later because I thought it would be better later in the game. I lurked out a lot in the beginning of the game so I could try to get to later in the game to use it. Thinkbig super blatantly claimed a PR so I thought it was best to try and protect a potential PR. I was semi investigative with it as well. I brought up day 2 that if a Vig shot SD, then Frog is likely town because it would mean there was a good chance that scum targeted Frog, and my rolestop would have stopped the kill. If a Vig would have said they shot at Frog, it would have confirmed Frog as town. I lead the lynch on Mario that day. He flipped SK, but I feel like my scum hunting and trying to find scum was on full display that day. Look back at Una's posts that day.

So your defense is 'poor play'.
Okay. That's about normal for this game

[Thor665]

@Thor - I have confbias because I know Frog lied unless there's a ninja roleblocker. I got a no result on town. There's no other possibility besides me being roleblocked.

I see no issue today, if you're town, believing Frog is scum.
I have issue with you yesterday ignoring it in favor of the Eddie push.
I don't know why you keep using awareness from today to justify behavior yesterday.

@Game Replacement - another thing I'd like you to offer up, since you have a weak modifier. Can you please point to your night action target crumbs?

[Thor665]

Two is setting himself up after rb's spastic play marked him fairly obvious town.
With 7 alive and two scum, double fakeclaims for one mislynch is risky.

I'd prefer to let people defend themselves.
You do whatever you think is best play for town.

[Thor665]

Thankfully I don't need Thor's permission to play the game. Nor is his opinion of me the end all be all.

Vote: Flavor Leaf

Thankfully you don't know how to use vote tags either
Dude, seriously, the Newbie queue, it exists for a reason. You're not playing this game very well unless you're scum. Are you claiming scum?

[Thor665]

@Two - like, maybe just explain why you think Flavor is the one lying here? I'd love to hear that before you do any derp voting.

[Thor665]

Stop looking for scapegoats. You've been playing the whole game. I'm a replacement. Who is scum?

If I knew who scum was I'd probably be voting.
That might be why I'm asking certain derp people not to vote - because I don't think it's a settled matter yet.

I don't agree to lynch anyone except you or GR today.
He is the confirmed scum so he is the safest option to me, but I'm afraid that we end up having to take a "guessy" lynch on a future day anyway.

That was my reason on why to vote for you first.

This is really iffy reasoning.

Vedith
\o/

I'll post later.

Good, I very much wish to interact with you, and have multiple questions outstanding for you to field.

[Thor665]

@TwoinaMillion - I very strongly am starting to believe that Game Replacement is the smart lynch today - why do you want to lynch FLavor instead of him.

[Thor665]

This is really iffy reasoning.

Might be, but if you were in my position, you would understand.

Voting 90% scum over 100% scum?
I doubt it.

I have been pondering on the possibility of town!FL, and it isn't 100% off the table.
It would require frog+GR for it to work though, and I still feel like scum!GR has no reason to back up town!FL..maybe I am missing something.
And I honestly don't scumread frog, but then again, I didn't scumread Flavor before his JOAT-claim either.

It could also be done with town Frog and scum GR, or, frankly, scum frog and town GR.

[Thor665]

Why are you voting Flavor instead of GR?

[Thor665]

They are both confirmed scum to me

Flavor Leaf

effectively

claimed a guilty on a confirmed town player, and I know he was not roleblocked
Game Replacement claimed to have visited Flavor Leaf Night Three, which I know he did not do

I'm highlighting an important word in your assessment.
Even if you only accept that as .00000001% that there is a chance that FL was played by scum (and I would happily argue it's a bigger number than that) it is still vastly more of a chance than GR has to be town from your perspective.
FL is likely scum.
GR is assured scum.

Why are you voting FL?

[Thor665]

Because I believe the likelihood of a scum role that can play FL like that existing is infinitesimally small

The only reason, in a vacuum, why I should lynch Game Replacement over Flavor Leaf is if I think something like Ninja Roleblocker exists

Whaaaat? Why are you only seeing th emore complicated option even after I pointed out easier ones.

I'm obviously not against a GR lynch

Vote him then, he's the more likely scum if you're telling the truth.

What do you think the chance of scum having a role that could confound Night 3's results to the extent that both I and FL are town is?

Since all they'd need is a rolestopper, or a jailkeeper, I would call them perfectly decent and certainly higher than the 0% chance of them having something that makes GR not scum if you're town.

[Thor665]

I'm actually fascinated/horrified by how I'm having the same conversation as yesterday and I'm also having that conversation with *both sides* of the current Mexican standoff.

[Thor665]

You would think me being right yesterday would AT LEAST buy me the common courtesy of people voting people that they agree are scum in the order I prefer.

[Thor665]

Like, seriously, what even is this debate with you and Flavor and me?

[Thor665]

What are the easier ones? If by jailkeeper you are suggesting I could have been jailed Night 3, then that is incorrect, as the wording for 'nobody visited' and 'action failed' differs in my Role PM. I concede that a rolestopper would solve Night 3 if Flavor Leaf and I were both town, but they would have to be a scum rolestopper since town has not claimed one yet, and Flavor Leaf would be the likeliest candidate for that given the claim.

No, I'm suggesting, as I discussed yesterday, that it would be impossible for Flavor, if he is telling the truth, to tell the difference between a Loyalty effect on scum from a Jailed target.
So, if EDDIE had been jailed (or something similar of which there are many options) it grants Flavor the result he claimed while being town, and you the result you claimed while being town, yet (from your perspective) it remains impossible for GR to be town - which makes you voting Flavor first objectively bad play if you're town.

[Thor665]

There are also Ninja Rolestoppers and other more esoteric options, of course, and all of them ALSO support my stance.

[Thor665]

Lynching me loses us the game.
Thor, I know you're not that bad to be believing a fake guilty from scum in LyLo/MyLo.

You supported a likely fake guilty yesterday while ignoring someone directly counterclaiming you, so...well, if I'm bad you're worse

I asked you to talk to me about wagon composition - it seems to strongly vilify you and Flavor. What are your thoughts on how scum appear to have avoided wagons on town constantly?

[Thor665]

GR is Vanilla. Thor is Vanilla.
I'm leaning back to lynching Flavor honestly, but I want to reach that decision TOGETHER.

NTRP and TiaM, open your mouths again.

Lynching Flavor first is objectively the dumber decision if you and Frog are even half telling the truth.
Then again, we lynched Eddie yesterday off Flavor embracing dumb logic also, so I can't rule anything out - but I do know that I am presenting pure logic and your response to pure logic for, from your perspective, 100% assured scum lynch is "waaaaah, maybe they're protecting a PR for 1 night!" to which my reply is "how would that actually help scum? Like, what power would that need to be? Because unless it has multi-kill powers it doesn't.

I'm getting tired of debating illogic.

OK Thor, talk with me through this then.

Do you believe that scum has a PR in the game?
And if they do, what kind of power would you assume?

Sure, there are far too many PRs to expect all scum are Goons.
I don't have enough info to draw a conclusion about what power scum have, I don't think anyone does.
I'd tend to expect that both of our rolecops are probably claiming their role honestly and one is lying about alignment, as a rolecop with this many town PRs seems like very likely scum power. As to the rest, it sort of depends on the 2 ir 3 scum question. I personally see little logic to anyone advancing a 3 scum group claim, so tend to expect a Goon/Rolecop but could buy a Goon/Blocking power pretty easily.

Since you apparently think there are 3 scum, why don't you explain your theory balance?

Considering what I done had 2 out 2 Scum, while you sit there ready for a mis Lynch, no I'm not worse.
I had Eddie as 3rd Scum and his Scum flip just made my claim set.
He was town but was pushing FL as Scum when I knew he was town. That's not bad play

Ediie was provably a bad lynch yesterday, so, yeah, you're worse.

Scum avoid wagons all the time if they don't have to join. You know This, I know this.
I can show wagons in majority games pushed by Scum I can show wagons majority of games pushed by town.

How many games can you show 0 wagons pushed by scum?
Because that's what we have here if you and Flavor are both town.
I may have seen that, I suppose, but it's assuredly very rare if it does happen. I don't recall ever seeing it...have you?

I still say Flavor and NTRP are scum.

Why do you think that?
And why do you think BOTH GameReplacement and Frog are town?
Because I'm pretty sure that's impossible.

I do realize that from his perspective nothing is set on stone, but its hard to understand his hesitation when everything is factual/logical to yourself.

My hesitation is that I'm debating between GR and scum logical voting vs. you and Frog pushing an illogical lynch target which makes your behavior feel scum motivated and also a bit of unease of how you though best to react and investigate a functional counterclaim to yourself.
My questions to both sides are pretty clear on my issues, as I'm sort of outright saying them over and over and looking for answers.
I may seem slow - but I can't imagine you can be confused as to my actual issues.

Like, I've repeatedly shown why both you and Frog should 100% be certain on GR and some % less than 100% on Flavor and yet I'm having to scream my throat raw to get votes moved all while both of you agree with every point of logic I'm bringing up other than the idea of what town should do with that info (which, apparently in your mind, is vote the less sure scum).

Anyway what do ppl want from me?

How about which of Frog and GR you think is scum and why?

[Thor665]

Why don't we lynch NTRP then we have nothing to go on besides vote count.

Because we have two players where we know for a fact one is scum so should probably lynch there for 50% accuracy even on a coin flip.
And if there's only two Mafia then NTRP is almost assuredly town.

[Thor665]

How many games can you show 0 wagons pushed by scum?
Because that's what we have here if you and Flavor are both town.
I may have seen that, I suppose, but it's assuredly very rare if it does happen. I don't recall ever seeing it...have you?

I have hundreds on games on here, I can ensure you that there are games like that. When I'm at a PC I'll look through as I know I've seen it, and you know it can happen too.
90% of my Scum games I'm voting Scum, not town. And that's all game.

I also have hundreds of games, so our ability to assert from experience has to be similar.

You're saying that if I looked up your scum games you would spend almost all of your time voting scumbuddies, even at day's end?

[Thor665]

3 Scum and 1 SK isn't unbalanced and is used more than 2 Scum 1 SK.
There's going to be 3 Scum here, but keep trying to push this. It makes no difference after we Lynch Frog and Ins

I agree that 3 scum and 1 SK isn't inherently unbalanced.
Who do you think the theory partner for Frog and Una is?

[Thor665]

Why don't we lynch NTRP then we have nothing to go on besides vote count.

Because we have two players where we know for a fact one is scum so should probably lynch there for 50% accuracy even on a coin flip.
And if there's only two Mafia then NTRP is almost assuredly town.

That's what people said about Eddie and Flavor yesterday.

I agree people said this.
I was not one of those people, and repeatedly noted that other people were wrong.
Because I'm not a dolt.

You still haven't explained why you think they're both town.

I also have hundreds of games, so our ability to assert from experience has to be similar.

You're saying that if I looked up your scum games you would spend almost all of your time voting scumbuddies, even at day's end?

I am saying that, yes.
You've seen my Scum game where I push my Scum team.
Pretty sure one large game I pushed my entire Scum team and made it to LyLo after convincing people to lynch them.
I've even day killed my Scum team. So knock yourself out.

I'll do some research tomorrow in some Minis.
Feel free to toss me some if you want me to look at anything specific.

[Thor665]

Look, I have a clear on FL.
Una and Frog have been flip flopping all day and this is a typical fake claim from scum in MyLo
Thor acting dumb doesn't sit well with me either.

I'm acting dumb?
Aw crap.
What is this "flip-flopping" they're doing exactly?
I don't think it exists.
They've presented silly logic, but they haven't flip-flopped on anything I saw.

[Thor665]

I'd tend to expect that both of our rolecops are probably claiming their role honestly and one is lying about alignment

Also, if you believe this then you believe that Una is Scum role cop.
With the amount of PRs we have, what makes sense? Weak Odd night or full?

Well, clearly if I had confirmation about the Weak this conversation would all be over.

Looking at the games you linked I was able to find multiple instances of you voting town wagons that went through, which appears to support the stance I held, which makes me curious about what you thought I was stating. I'm going to restate my position (and my perceived understanding of your position) and if I'm wrong about anything please let me know.

1. Thor's position - In any given game, it is generally likely that on multiple occasions scum will be present on the lynch wagons (town or scum) and it would be highly unlikely for them to not be on any, especially on town ones.

2. GR's position - about 90% of the time in any given game my vote is on a scumbuddy, and I basically never help lynch town.

3. I find your evidence as presented to support #1 and not support #2.

I don't see where Flavor is reaching his conclusions.

Nor do I.
Do you now agree with me about my concept that either GR or Frog are assured scum, and it's impossible for both to be town?

what the actual fuck is going on

I am getting very bored of you. You are functionally posting the same thing every time you show up.
I have already answered this post.
YOU have already answered this post in your previous post.
I have asked you a follow up question and you have avoided answering it.

What the fuck IS going on with you?

What it comes down to for me is Una and Frog are providing a much worse argument than Flavor is. Even though I distrust Flavor because of day 4, I am inclined to vote with him.

What makes their argument worse?
I find their position to make much more sense.


@Game Replacement - what happened to the night kill on Night 3 if Frog and Una are scum?

[Thor665]

I would also love it if frog + Una v. GR + Flavor would please do the following.

SHUT THE HELL UP.

Your back and forth is giving me 3-4 pages every day to wade through, and no one is actually scoring interesting hits right now.
What town should do in his situation is TALK TO TOWN, NOT TO SCUM.
So andwer questions. Talk to people solving. Hell, talk to your "confirmed town" buddy and explain the game state.

But stop giving some players (like, for instance NTRP) an excuse to come in, say bupkiss, and drift away multiple days in a row,
That"s BS, anti-town, and boring.

It's already pretty questionable that anyone but me is even reading all the back and forth, and even in my last handful of posts I'm not responding to it.
Two has stated he's skipping a lot of it.
NTRP is, clearly, not reading.

So why are you wasting my and your own time if you're town?

[/service announcement]

[Thor665]

@Game Replacement - what happened to the night kill on Night 3 if Frog and Una are scum?

Just restating, because he's calling me stupid, and I'm stupidly having this as a hangup if he and Flavor are town.

[Thor665]

Just restating, because he's calling me stupid, and I'm stupidly having this as a hangup if he and Flavor are town.

Who the fuck knows?
Pre planned from scum to help with their claims?

How would a no kill help their claims?
All they need to do is kill outside of the counterclaim bubble, and if they have 2 scum it drastically helps them, and if they have 3 it still helps them by strongly shifting what town will need to not derp.

So your answer is "dunno"?

Do you argue that it was a good play?

I didn't lynch town. Having a vote on someone, and being on there when there's a wagon is 2 different things.

Here I have been on all the lynches, in the last 3 games I showed you as scum I wasn't on the lynches. I lynched my own scum early on, and this is proof in 90% of my scum games that I do it. I believe you were going to look but wanted examples.

So explain how it's the same here as there?

Being on a wagon, is to me, helping lynch someone - no one is lynched in a vacum, all the votes matter. I think that's where this communication fell apart.
So now let's restate my thought with this cleaner understanding of what I mean.

It is highly unlikely for multiple town lynches to happen in a game with zero scum anywhere on the wagon.

What are your thoughts on that statement?

Thor where is ur question that I missed?

I asked you who of GR or frog you think is more likely scum and why.
I think there's a lot of easy to access info that should alow at least an initial theory on that question.

Dont pretedn thats the only thing I said earlier bcuz I did actually comment on what was going on.

You gave IIoA sure, but that's meaningless to me.

Like rn this game is on the backbhtner for me bcuz it requires a reread and I dont have any fucking time cuz school. Ima be prodging till the weekend.

When will you do this re-read you need to do?

[Thor665]

Then you should still not be talking to known scum, so...

[Thor665]

@Thor gr is prob scum. idd vote him but im not a fan of hammer tests. Since ive been grouped with frog and una for some reason and its apparently two/gr/flavour im voting flavor.

I'll go ahead and ask the question that is baited in there - why do you think Flavor is more likely scum than GR considering it's possible for GR to be scum, and for all of Flavor, frog, and Una to be town?

IIoA is Information instead of Analysis - it's when people offer posts just sort of describing what's happening without actually offering their thoughts on any of it. The post I was referencing had you show up, describe the game state briefly, and offer nothing else, and was IIoA.

[Thor665]

You're being very repetitive there

I would say the biggest issue with calling Una/Frog town is Frog functionally claimed just to try and get Eddie lynched, and Una's claim is a little awkward considering the timing and what some of the claimed targets are.

The counterpoint to that is, Flavor functionally claimed to try to get Eddie lynched also, and there's the two big issues of, who stopped the kill Night 3 if GR and Flavor are town/why did scum stupidly opt to no kill and also that neither Frog nor Una have particularly been voting town.

Why do you not want to hammer test yet - what more info do you think we should try to get in order to have a more accurate assessment. i agree with you that I'm not ready to hammer test, but I also think it's pretty clear that I'm hunting for more info, so I am at least being proactive in my nervousness. What are you up to right now/what do you want to learn?

[Thor665]

But the way theyve been grouping, it's either FL/GR or Frog/Una

I also feel the need to point out that this isn't actually all that true.
It's somewhat true - but it's not even close to a given.

The only given is that at least one of GR and frog are scum (or incredibly derpy town who is actively lying) - we know that for a fact, and it's our only solid fact amongst the four.

[Thor665]

IT ALSO SUPPORTED EDDIES NIGHT ACTIONS, which to me, are the best explanation we have on why there was a missed NK.

Eddie flipping town Doc supported that - frog's claim did spit for it.

My claim is awkward because I didn't get to claim before Eddie was hammered, I went to sleep on a day/twilight that happened to be faithful for town.
Wavemode didn't get to claim either.

Lots of people haven't got to claim this game, even when being wagoned.
Overall bad town play doesn't actually change the core potential issue with your claim.

[Thor665]

Do you actually wish to discuss/assess anything else?

[Thor665]

I'm going to put this in spoilers, but here's my thoughts on your 3589.
My responses are in sexy, sexy red.

Spoiler: an analysis I only do because I was asked

Not at all, you have proved mine.

By admitted that your conclusions are prior to your reasoning, you have stated that every case you produce today embraces circular logic. They are, therefore, nonsense. You are now trying to hide behind semantics to the significance of something you have so clearly and unambiguously stated.

There is no further need for interaction. Of course you are scum trying to mislynch to me; that is what my perspective dictates. Of course I am scum trying to mislynch to you; that is what your perspective dictates. Nothing either of us can say can be valid, rendering any claims, cases, comments, whatever, of precisely zero consequence.

This is why I have been advocating 'speak only when spoken to'. Now that we agree on something, even if you do not want to admit it, there is no reason to continue this.

Flavor Leaf believes that nothing he has said today proceeds from anything other than the assumption that UnaBombaH and I are scum. The assumption that certain other players are scum is not unique to him. When reading his posts, be aware that every 'town does not do this' or 'this is scummy' has the phrase 'assuming they are scum' behind it.

That is all. Remaining three, we are watching.

K, I'll point out every lie in this post of his.

Okay, I am ready for this.

1) I didn't claim they were prior to my reasons, I said they are separate from the preconceived. It doesn't matter if it was before or not, and that was the entire point.

That's not actually a lie on his part, and as a defense to his accusation your decision is apparently to start debating definitions as opposed to actually tackling his raised issue. I give this point to frog.

2) I have stated the exact opposite that my every case of mine has circular reasoning. Literally, the exact opposite. I stated YOUR cases have that, and mine don't, and I have also stated that as a difference between our plays, and this is absolutely not circular reasoning, as this post is using absolutely no zero bias. Sure, I know you are scum, but I'm making cases completely separate from that.

This rebuttal actually hurts my brain to read. Quite frankly I consider both of you as being functionally equally guilty of this so-called circular reasoning, and I wouldn't even call it circular reasoning in the first place, so debating which of you is "more right" in your identical raised issues is pretty meaningless to me. i consider it a null point.

This also counters the point of your perspective talk, as I have been actively making non perspective cases, such as this, because this isn't a perspective case. This is me breaking down a case, and explaining to people why you are scummy. This could be done without any confbias.

I may agree with that, though frankly I was making a perspective case to both you and frog and he at least listened to me, so to a certain extent that feels better to me. I think if either or both of you are town you're being really argumentative and not paying a lot of attention to provable facts and I think that issue is something that I wish neither of you were doing. I would call it a tie.

3) Neither of us can say anything that is valid? What about actual scum hunting? What about making actual scum cases that don't involve conf bias? That is completely valid.

I would agree with that...if either of you were doing it. He has a point, your case on him and Una is *exactly* as viable as his case on you and GR. In fact, the only really valid issue was yesterday, when Eddie should have never been the lynch target but both you and GR decided to ignore lynching frog for...reasons. To be perfectly frank, I'm still not entirely sure why you trust GR over frog - you actually don't seem to have a reason I understand for choosing that. From your perspective their claims should look equally plausible - just like they do to me. Also both seemed to have an agenda for lynching Eddie (something you seem to claim scum were setting up) I'm actually using non-claim relevant info (vote wagons) to draw my conclusions. Why do you like GR for town so strongly over frog? He could easily be the scum playing you right now, and frog is just an innocent watcher.

I have also stated that I will comment on anything I can to show I am town and actively make more cases that aren't conf bias. I have stated that I am not doing this to communicate with you guys; I don't care to communicate with you guys. This, right here, is me communicating to town. That mindset of yours shows that you see this as you and I communicating without other people involved. I don't see it that way at all, so I will continue if I am able to. You backing off of it is scummy because you see that I'm making actual cases.

I still note that not a single lie has been actually shown. Also, I frankly believe you're kinda lying (either to yourself or to everyone else) that you're talking with town to convince town by walling with frog.

4) What are you talking about with me and not caring about other assumptions? I have stated why I town read literally everyone else in the game besides you guys. Thor is town because he could have won the game if he were scum instead of actively trying to prolong the day. Two is town for leaning me, even voting me at the beginning of the day and the attempt to vote me later, and now willing to potentially accept that I'm town. I don't feel I need to explain GR why GR is town.

I would like to see you explain why GR is town, frankly. Two isn't town because of rb? That's the only reason he has me - his play has been pretty scummy if you ignore rb.

Also, I state that "town doesn't do this" and "this is scummy" because town doesn't do that and those posts I say it to are fucking scummy. Like, take out the "Town doesn't do this" posts. I explain in nearly every single one of my posts that I am calling something scummy in exactly why it is scummy.

I will guardedly agree you do this, though I will point out that just like yesterday when you lynched Eddie while I was shouting that it was illogical - if you're town you lie to yourself/don't understand what is or is not actually provable and scum motivated and it leads you down bad roads. That, or you're scum. But frog questioning your logic and methods seems pretty legit to me as a stance.

This entire post by you is literally full of lies.

I have proven in this post that they are lies, with statements that can be backed up by just reading the game.

You actually really haven't - you've disagreed with his opinions of your play quality by offering your opinions of your play quality.

This is not just me saying "nuh uh" to your post. This is me completely explaining why your post is incorrect in explicit detail. Just because Frog states that I'm just "nuh uh"ing every thing he is saying, doesn't make it true.

Considering I asked both sides to zip it - I kind of agree with frog's assessment of the quality of the back and forth. Functionally I think both sides were just saying 'no u!' back and forth. There was not a lot of actual game analysis, otherwise both sides should have had two votes on frog and two votes on GR really quick - because those are by FAR the most logical and provable scum cases if you presume that 2+ of the PRs are lying. Una has since come in with a bit more of a direct counter to GR, but I'm not sure why you don't believe him over GR (or, frankly, why he's so sure you're lying even if GR is) but that's a headache for town later, hopefully after scum kill me for being slightly sane.

If anything I am doing "nuh uh, and here, let me tell you why. It's because......" and then I go on and explain why. That is what people as town battling scum are supposed to do. Want to know why? Because scum's job is to try and discredit the townie to get the rest of the town to agree with them, while town's job is to explain why scum are scum by pointing out why their push on them is crap, which I have done.

All you have done is post "oh, we just are doing circular reasoning back and forth", when just by reading the thread that is not true. Two even stated he thought my cases were stronger, which further pushes that.

I will agree that Two stated he liked your cases, even though he appears unable to describe why, I don't take that as a ringing endorsement of the back and forth.

What do you think of GR's answers to me thus far? he feels like he's trying to slip and slide my questions and not actually gamesolve with me. Do you agree/disagree with that and why? Also, why do you trust him so much? I see no reason for you to, what am I missing?

[Thor665]

Am I the only one who sees posts where people are straight up lying as scummy?

I present as counter evidence; Eddie's entire iso that I correctly read.
I'm not saying that is good play - but it is good play to understand that bad play exists.

[Thor665]

GR's town because he would be able to lynch me and win the game earlier when Frog and Una were on me.

How would that have worked exactly?

The win isn't worth the fight and stress I'm having by putting so much effort into these cases for people to say they're basically pointless when I know I'm correct. Sure, I have that confbias, but I have explained my town reads completely, explained past the confbias, so my posting is essentially pointless now anyways, so it doesn't even matter if I post or not. So I'm going to stop now.

Knowing you're correct.
Being correct.
Functionally presenting correct cases.

Are actually three different things.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I went back and looked, you had, at most, two votes on you.
GR couldn't vote you without exposing himself as at least suspect as he would need to explain unvoting more assured scum Una at that stage (functionaly GR ever voting anyone except Una is basically a scum or a full derp claim).
So he'd at least need one more vote to even begin to make that move worth it for him.
But he never had that.


So why are you so certain he's town?

[Thor665]

Think for once, holy fuck.

I am thinking, slow your big role.
If GR is scum and wanted to lynch you, he would need 3 votes on you and then to vote you also.
He never had that.
So why do you rule him out?

Is it just that you're absolutely convinced he would be willing to be the third vote with two others who may or may not be his scumbuddies?
Your clear isn't making a lot of sense to me.
Explain it without cussing at me or calling me names, you're a big boy, you can do it.

[Thor665]

Yeah, whoop-dee-doo, no one was here but me, and you're calling me town - and even if I was scum I'm blatantly not scum with GR because I'm blatantly steering votes on to him.

[Thor665]

Can someone reitirate the night action claims on players that aren't dead? Do any of them contradict each other?

Yes - GR and frog contradict each other.
As I've said many times today, and so has everyone else.
Except you, who may or may not think they're both town, we're not sure because you're not talking through your thoughts very much.

[Thor665]

Think for once, holy fuck.

I am thinking, slow your big role.
If GR is scum and wanted to lynch you, he would need 3 votes on you and then to vote you also.
He never had that.
So why do you rule him out?

Is it just that you're absolutely convinced he would be willing to be the third vote with two others who may or may not be his scumbuddies?
Your clear isn't making a lot of sense to me.
Explain it without cussing at me or calling me names, you're a big boy, you can do it.

IT"S CALLED THE FUCKING TEAM DOES IT. Not just him. There isn't only one scum. Two people already on me, if one of those people are town, then scum can quick hammer and win.

What if both are scum, and GR is also scum?
How do you know that isn't the setup?

Also, what if GR was waiting for another of his scumbuddies to come along and vote you so he could hammer because he thought his vote would make, let's say town frog, freak out and unvote. That also could be an issue.

Why did you rule both of those possibilities out?

[Thor665]

What are GR's and Frog's claims again?

I really don't feel a need to repeat them for you.
They have ISOs, and we've been discussing their claims quite a lot today.
If you aren't reading just go look at their ISOs to get the info.

[Thor665]

What if both [frog and Una] are scum, and GR is also scum?
How do you know that isn't the setup? [it would even make sense for scum Una to be pressing you instead of the person he functionally has a guilty on, and may also explain why Frog and GR countered each other yesterday but didn't vote each other]

Also, what if GR was waiting for another of his scumbuddies to come along and vote you so he could hammer because he thought his vote would make, let's say town frog, freak out and unvote. That also could be an issue.

Why did you rule both of those possibilities out?

Some extra thoughts added.
Like, this narrative actually can make a lot of sense.
So why'd you rule it out so strongly that you have to SCREAM AT THOR for even remotely questioning why you did it?

[Thor665]

They could have won when Paul's vote was on me, if they all were scum.

No, that's not right unless I'm missing something - show me where that vote was.
Because the only time Paul was on you was *after* I had already shifted votes off you and onto GR - so there wasn't three votes and it was ALSO after you started calling GR Towny McTown.

I see no logic for frog being lock scum for you.
Literally the only reason to have that thought is if GR is lock town for you (which would be that dread circular reasoning you claim not to use).
Frog's claim can be 100% town and so can your PR claim and nothing is an issue with that.

[Thor665]

Are you intentionally avoiding my question about the Paul vote?

I am now going to escalate my question to the claim that you're calling GR town because, well, he's your scumbuddy and you need the voting block.
Can you show evidence of your reasoning that defeats this accusation?

[Thor665]

Okay, so at a point you had 1 vote on you - PRESUMING PAUL IS TOWN (Which you don't claim)
Then a theory scum team of frog, GR, and Una could have maybe managed a three way vote consolidation for the win.
And we agree you never had three votes on you at any single point.
And we'll overlook that GR did provide game evidence that he is a cautious hammerer.

The real problem with that is we have had 4 different wagons going today at various points - so for your logic to be valid there are multiple other scumteams we can absolutely rule out also.
Why aren't you ruling out all of them?
And also (again) all of that evidence comes AFTER you have been calling GR town - why did you call him town before that? Or was that not a very strong read at that point and you were just saying it?

[Thor665]

I brought up the possibility of Frog/GR countering each other ignorantly or scum theatre wise, and then they pushed myself and Una respectively, and whenever they had enough votes to quick hammer, they would change over and win the game.

Okay, now let's go with a different theory team.

GR/NTRP/Una

How do you rule them out? At that stage they never had the chance to put you in quicklynch range, and thus your town clear of GR is meaningless.
No?

[Thor665]

Like wtf even was that question about why am I not ruling out other possible scum teams? I AM!!!!!! I don't understand how you can think I'm not. At all.

You're not showing your work, so I'm just having to ask a few questions so I understand it.
Remember, rb, Eddie, GR, and many others all point out that I play stupidly - so I need to ask a lot of questions to understand things that others get via being much smarter.

PEdot - how can frog be lock scum with the possibility of ninja roleblockers, mafia rolestoppers, mafia jailkeepers, et al and ect?

[Thor665]

It's quite odd to have all the roles with modifiers in them. I'm just trying to sort them out. So, GR and you(Flavor) could be scum together, fabricating your claims, or Frog could be scum with an unknown buddy.

Or GR could be scum and Flavor town - there actually isn't a direct clear scum connection between them based on claims.
There may be one based on play, but that's a different thing.

If you go to the Wiki it explains all the roles, modifiers,a nd whatnot.
Also pretty much everyone explained their modifiers in their claims and also a few times since.

[Thor665]

And Frog was the first to vote me, so yes, they could have quick hammered. GR and Una had been posting throughout the day, and I've stated my thoughts on Paul likely actively lurking and not doing anything.

There was never a point of apparent NTRP activity until after frog had moved off to vote GR.
So...how do you rule that one out exactly? By just presuming NTRP was there and available and they all would have coordinated and it would have happened even though he wasn't in the thread for the small amount of time frog was on you?

Shouldn't we be trying to figure out who is the highest probability of being scum rather than the entire scum team?

Yes.
I have been discussing for some time that the only logical lynch options are frog or GR and currently am favoring GR.
What are your thoughts?

[Thor665]

But literally that's your rule out logic, correct?
The presumption that he is ready at any moment to help his scumbuddies as the hammer.
Because otherwise you can't rule out GR - so you believe that 100%?

[Thor665]

And only as the hammer.

[Thor665]

It seems to me there is a 50-50 chance of frog or GR being scum. Can you explain in laymans terms why you are favoring GR?

Because as I've already said multiple times;

I don't think it is very likely that scum;
1. Opted to no kill Night 3 (which makes frog town off Eddie's protect)
2. That no scum were ever particularly on any town lynches (which might be colored if you or NTRP is scum - but even then it means the scum team was letting one member do all the work, which seems unlikely).

[Thor665]

You also explained a really convoluted way for Eddie to be scum.
I didn't buy that.
I don't buy this.

It is far more likely that scum just opted to try to kill someone.

[Thor665]

And this is also in a world where for you to be town scum also still needs a roleblocker.
So frog would pretty much have to be a scum roleblocker (not a jailkeep)
Block you.
Also decide to not kill someone because...well, somehow they knew Eddie would protect a scum player.
All for the eventual gain of Eddie claiming his role so that the scum player could be cleared later?

Meh.
Yeah, sure, it *could* have happened, but statistically it is assuredly less likely than frog being town who was targeted with a kill.

Pedit - if you're town how do you know we lost? I'd still note that GR can be scum and you be town.
I'll admit that if this is a town loss today I'll be surprised, the GR lynch feels very just.

[Thor665]

Presuming this is a scum flip I would like to suggest that the Watcher watch the rolecop and the rolecop targets Flavor.
If it's not then it doesn't matter

[Thor665]

If GR was scum frog could easily be town and GR could be lying about who he targeted.
I would note that Una reported that GR was Vanilla/Goon, so that is highly feasible.

[Thor665]

Even if you're town frog can be town.
Like, GR could be scum with Two and NTRP or Una and GR could be scum with NTRP.

With the lack of kill, frog seemed like the safest bet for most likely town in the assorted PRs.
And then from that you assess outward.

[Thor665]

And if you're town, hammering a town read makes me dislike you.
Much like if rb is town. Of course I already kind of dislike him

[Thor665]

Eddie was assured scum from your perspective also - so I'll suggest you may be using some flawed logic in creating your perspective.
I may be wrong also, but at least I'm not claiming infallible awareness.

[Thor665]

I find that sad and indicitive of some of the issues with the site of late.
I could have taken my ball and gone home like rb did after some of the lynches went through that I opposed.
i could have done it after the Eddie derp lynch I opposed.
I stuck it out and played for my wincon.
If you're telling the truth right now I would support the mods slapping your for intentional game tanking which ruins other people's fun for no reason other than your personal whine.
If you were that done you should have replaced out.

[Thor665]

Could the scumteam be GR/NTRP/Flavor?

Sure.
It could be a number of things right now, but that is a setup I currently tend to favor.

[Thor665]

If you voted him believing he was town in order to end the game it doesn't matter.

[Thor665]

Like I said, it's only an issue if you're telling the truth.

[Thor665]

It's still confirmed for me Frog is scum.

VOTE: Frog

Can you walk me through how frog is confirmed scum to you if GR is scum?
Because I see some potential arguments for 'he's scum' but I see no arguments for 'he's confirmed scum'.

[Thor665]

Also, why aren't you sheeping your vote to me Boon?
Your logic has tanked twoice when you've claimed absolute knowledge - doesn't it worry you how wrong you're being with "confirmed scum"?

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

Can you walk me through how frog is confirmed scum to you if GR is scum?
Because I see some potential arguments for 'he's scum' but I see no arguments for 'he's confirmed scum'.

[Thor665]

Like, from your perspective I would still tend to think that Una is the most confirmed player, and Frog is number two, with probably me three and Paul four.
You're voting number two though...

[Thor665]

I'll drive home and try to clarify my thoughts to you all in few hours.

I'm relieved we got through yesterday, at least my alignment should now be for certain.

Why is your alignment for certain?
Considering the kills I have to accept that scum is making poor decisions - which pretty much removes you from confirmed town in a hot second.

[Thor665]

Also, @Thor - if you think those kills are bad, then you shouldn't think they're coming from me. I'm known on site to have a great scum game, and my 2+ year undefeated as scum streak proved that. (I lost that streak in my last scum game).

I wouldn't think your "confirmed scum" cases should be coming from you either.
If you're town I know you're being terrible.
If you're scum then at least I can believe you thought the kills were clever for some esoteric reason.

Why is your alignment for certain?
Considering the kills I have to accept that scum is making poor decisions - which pretty much removes you from confirmed town in a hot second.

Oh my.. I don't feel like saying anything after all.

So tell me how we solve the game from here if we assume the scum isn't even trying to play optimally?

Also tell me your opinion on the likelyhood of Scum!JOAT vs Scum!Watcher.

Why don't you feel like saying anything due to me asking why your alignment is certain? (I am going to presume that because you didn't answer with a case that you agree with me - feel free to correct me if this is an incorrect presumption)

I would advocate doing the same thing I've been doing - looking for logic holes, and then wrapping a noose around them. GR's claim was pure terrible when he did it - didn't stop me from figuring out he was scum without an investigation. So, do that.

I could see both being potential roles in this game, though I find frog's likelihood to be scum to be rather thin if you're asking me which I think is more likely to be scum of the two.

I am intrigued; why do you think, from an outside perspective as far as that is possible, that there is a problem with you being a partner for GR?

I don't. I make perfect sense as a perfect for scum with GR. Pretty sure that was planned by scum in case you didn't win yesterday. You think scum just went all out for no reason yesterday without any idea of how they were going to go about had they lost?

So scum's plan was to go all out and hope that you would randomly hard townread GR for no reason?
Man, after how clever they were in knowing Eddie would protect frog these scum are getting downright psychic in their planning.
Should we just give up now because they're so good?

[Thor665]

My problem is, his perspective claims are still pretty dodgy.

The case for you scum requires: a scum cross claim by accident, a scum no kill, a scum Jailkeeper or Rolestopper and only that.
The case for Una requires: a scum cross claim on purpose, a scum Jailkeeper./Ninja role block/ et al
The case for NTRP requires: a scum Jailkeeper/Ninja role block/et al

And he's voting you after being wrong twice in a row on similar 'confirmed' cases.
It curls my toes.

[Thor665]

Why don't you feel like saying anything due to me asking why your alignment is certain? (I am going to presume that because you didn't answer with a case that you agree with me - feel free to correct me if this is an incorrect presumption)

I think it may be because your comment could be read as insulting

For asking him why his alignment is certain?
If that's insulting he ought to be able to answer the question with ease.
If he can't answer it with ease, then it's not an insulting question.
:shrug:

[Thor665]

I was actually referencing that it would be stupid for scum to counterclaim in lylo.
But that I wouldn't rule that out for this scum team because I do think scum is playing that stupidly considering their night kill choices.

If that insults Una he can let me know, I'd be glad for the clarification.

[Thor665]

I actually think I come off as the most likely scum partner for everyone in this game left. There's a case to be made for scum with each and everyone of you plus me as the scum team. Didn't think of that. Changes some things for me, I guess.

I agree that you come off as the most likely scum currently.

Are you intentionally ducking my question about your frog case?

to which potential scum, frog or Boon, killing TiaM would be more logical?
To me, not killing Thor is somewhat more suspicious action anyway, since I feel like Paul and TiaM would both be more easily swayed and convinced in LyLo.

So even if Paul is scum, he should've wanted TiaM to LyLo over Thor.

I don't think it is logical to either, as I said. It was a bad kill.

In a theory Boon scum - he killed TiaM because Two was the most aggressive voted on GR and had Boon in his sights.
In a theory frog scum - he killed TiaM because he had to avoid killing in the PRs and probably figured that kid's voting recordwas too wild and wooly to trust in a situation where town votes can confirm scum location.

Speaking of the PRs.
Both Boon and frog have doubled down on their claims - why are we still waiting for info on them or NTRP from you at this stage? What's the advantage your silence is getting anyone but theory scum you?

[Thor665]

@frog - incidentally, as I just realized this, why aren't you voting Boon yet? Are you questioning your statements from yesterday? Isn't the fact that he's voting you and you haven't been quickhammered proof of his scum role to you?m Or are you questioning the narrative from yesterday? If so - why aren't you asking more questions?

[Thor665]

I'm a puff pastry.

Are you avoiding my question about your role result for a reason? What is that reason?

[Thor665]

@Game Replacement - you're posting in other games. Citing Night Actions takes a few moments. Crafting a fake claim takes days. Tick tock.
Also don't forget to popcorn, I know it has been exceedingly hard for everyone to manage that, but it's part of the claim.

This is how I feel about what you're currently doing Una.

[Thor665]

The crafting part, I'm not paying attention to your activity yet.

[Thor665]

I am finding it very hard to follow some of your thought processes

Is there any reason why you have not yet claimed your result? What has changed from yesterday to today to make you think I could be scum with Game Replacement and Boonskiies if I am alive tomorrow? Why are you holding off on voting if you do not care about other players' deducations today?

I was going to respond to Una's wall of random - but the above actually sums it up pretty well.
So I'll just strongly second everything said here and add two questions.

1. If you believe what you're saying Una, why aren't you already voting Boon right now?
2. Why haven't you claimed your result yet?

Like, literally neither lack of claim nor lack of voe makes any sense if you believe the silly things you're saying you do.


@Boon - while we're at people doing silly things, why are you hard ducking my question so much that you're refusing to talk to me?

[Thor665]

frog/boon scumteam? anyone?

boon and gr push una for a mislynch yesterday while frog pushes them. one way they win ither way frog gets towncred.

I find this highly unlikely because it would have required psychic powers based around the night kill for it to be worth it for scum to try.

[Thor665]

I just want to let others play and talk if they want to, I'm just very much decided on Boon myself.

I'm the only one doing anything, and both the people I'm talking to are trying to avoid letting me get answers.
But...thanks for the extra time of you ducking my questions?

If I vote him, he could potentially selfhammer and deny the time we might need to think amongst ourselves on who the potential third scummy is.

But you're already locked and will act your thoughts out regardless tomorrow, so all that matters *should* be you screaming to lock in the rest of us, right?

My investigation was obviously on Boon. He is a JOAT.
But in my mind he is almost certainly scum!JOAT anyway so..

Why did you sit on this so long?

[Thor665]

1. So you want to think about it - but not have discussion about it. So the odd two days of night phase plus all the time tomorrow after you see a theory scum kill isn't enough for you?

Yeah, the net of Mulch, Mario, rb, and Eddie - masters of their case making craft...

2. If you acted like THOR had told you to we would have had this claim about four days ago instead of wondering why you were hiding info for that long. The claim of your result is about your alignment, not anyone elses.

[Thor665]

I sort of might have checked frog or Boon last night, and I want to hear from him before I speak my mind.

Like, what's this fish and why wouldn't you fish NTRP instead/also?
If you were 100% on frog at least fish the two theory scum you're battling over, yeah?

[Thor665]

Why weren't you the NK, as you are the best townplayer alive in the game?

frog and Boon had to stay alive (regardless of alignment) for their 1v1 purposes.
Why TiaM?

I already answered this question and you didn't discuss the answer with me.
My repeating my answer seems meaningless - what didn't you understand about my first answer?

[Thor665]

I don't think it is logical to either, as I said. It was a bad kill.

In a theory Boon scum - he killed TiaM because Two was the most aggressive voted on GR and had Boon in his sights.
In a theory frog scum - he killed TiaM because he had to avoid killing in the PRs and probably figured that kid's voting recordwas too wild and wooly to trust in a situation where town votes can confirm scum location.

[Thor665]

The logical kill was frog, Una if you're both town or Boon is scum.
Or Thor if one or both of you is scum.

Scum did "other" as an option for reasons that escape me.

[Thor665]

I read this, but I don't frankly approve of the answer "it was a bad kill".

That's not a reason to ask a question twice. That's a reason to start the dialogue or drop it.

Last day was so much full of BS because you wanted to humor the idea of scum!frog over scum!GR (which is fine I guess, it was good investigating), and there was discussion on the scum-side that their claim-gambit would be stupid if real.
Well it turns out, they did gambit, and very much knowingly.
So why did they opt to do the bad play intentionally?

The gambit was also bad play, so...I don't get your point here.
I was also humoring the conversation to try to bleed info out of GR - why do you think he went silent running on me?

I'm fairly certain their gambit wasn't bad, it was just two-sided.

1) to potentially win the game D5 on a hasty lynch on either me or frog.
2) to get a towncred-Thor to last LyLo vs frog who COULD have played us all. COULD have.

In a theory Thor game....that is actually so narf as to bore me with the idea of debating it. But I would suggest my actions yesterday and the day before throw a few serious monkey wrenches into it. Try to put together a remotely logical flow of why I did what I did as scum and I'll happily bat it back to Derpsville for you.

I'm also fairly certain my very poor townplay and late claim lead to scum having to mix their plans up: they didn't expect a full Rolecop to still be around.

Yeah, sure. And?
Their play was already full derp, and your claim was side to that regardless.
Like, literally no one but Boon tried to use your claim as part of any case on anyone.

frog is never the kill. why the fuck is frog ever the kill.

Because he's the closest thing we have to confirmed town in this game.

frog and boon were in a 1v1. if its svs (my opinion atm), frog ofc never dies. if its tvt, frog or boon are offlimits cuz scum have won. if its tvs, then either frog is scum or boon is scum. if boon is scum and he shoots frog, then he he is 100% screwed.

Frog and Boon were only in a 1v1 for the same reasons Boon and Eddie were - because people set up false either ors.
I spent, like, literally half of yesterday and a quarter of the day before that explaining this.

so how the fuck is frog the kill ever

How is he not town exactly?
Walk me through scum's plan.

[Thor665]

@NTRP - Please consider frog's responses as coming from me. I'd *especially* like to see Night 3 addressed as a scum plan.

[Thor665]

Of course you could be lying about the Odd part.
Also, maybe you're just there to locate the Full Doc, Full Rolecop, and the SK.

I wouldn't bank too much on it though.

I'm not loving how NTRP is dancing about Night 3.

[Thor665]

I am currently in three conversations I am interested in hearing resolved.

1. My questions to Boon about his frog case (that ido kind of accept he's scum claiming and intentionally avoiding at this stage - but still)

2. NTRP - researching Night 3 and coming back to me with an answer of how frog is scum with the awareness of what happened then.

3. Una potentially offering up the paranoia fest that is his Thor=scum case so I can smoosh it.

Once those three are semi-resolved I am fine with ending the day.
Before that I'm more neutral on it.

[Thor665]

Dancing around? Not dancing just honesty i didnt remember night actions so why respond right then?

Did FL/boon claim he protected frog that nught? If yes then it completely supports theiry where they nokill. If not then Im prob gonna need to rethink scum!frog.

Someone hammer? I believe Ive answered everything.

Eddie claimed the frog protect N3
Boon claimed to investigate Eddie and figure out he was scum.
People decided to lynch Eddie for reasons that escape me - but more importantly you're now calling frog scum, when literally the only way he can be scum is if scum no killed for...some reason.

What's that reason?

[Thor665]

Boon has offered a paper thin tinfoil theory for that reason that he refuses to defend or explain.
Do you have one too?

[Thor665]

Someone holds the hammer today?

[Thor665]

If you say so - then shouldn't you be voting me already since he'd be confirmed town to you?

[Thor665]

I don't think we know who holds the hammer.

If you believe Una does - why aren't you able to say why right now? Isn't that the very beginning of your Thor=scum case?
I was able to explain my frog townread yesterday in minutes and use only like two sentences - surely you're in about the same place with Una, right? Here, I'll help;

Una did directly counterclaim a scum.
Una also has some very convincing crumbs.

There, that's a good Una = town case, took seconds. Is yours different? If so, how, in not why not start with Thorscum there?

I am very interested to see a Thor=scum case considering my actions of the past few days in, y'know, sussing out the entire scum team and getting them lynched. We can wait to see your case.

I also look forward to Una showing up to do some work, I personally think the Thor=town evidence is better than the Una=town, so would love to know why he disagrees, and also why he isn't already voting Paul.

[Thor665]

It's posts like these why I'm suspecting Thor.

Is this actual suspicion, or like yesterday when you said you were suspicious for the same reason and then said you were lying about that?
Also - what makes that post suspicious?

I am the townie 100% of this group, no matter how much you would like to point out how You got all the scum lynched.

Are you saying I didn't?

I would've gotten the exact same lynches, I just wanted to take the potential PR out first.

So you're saying that by action I'm at *least* as townie as you?

I checked Paul last night because I was fairly certain frog would be the kill.
You are both Vanilla.

Good info to know.

[Thor665]

Town 2-shot Commuter
Town Doctor
Even-Night Tracker
Odd-Night Watcher
Town Rolecop
4x VT


Mafia JOAT
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

1-shot Bulletproof Novice Serial Killer

====================================

Town 2-shot Commuter
Town Doctor
Even-Night Tracker
Odd-Night Watcher
5x VT


Mafia JOAT
Mafia ?
Mafia Goon

1-shot Bulletproof Novice Serial Killer

[Thor665]

Is this actual suspicion, or like yesterday when you said you were suspicious for the same reason and then said you were lying about that?
Also - what makes that post suspicious

Because if you are as good of a player as you say you are, you should already know I am locktown -> you should vote Paul.

How are you locktown exactly?
Explain it to this theoretically good player who disagrees.

But since you are hesitant to do so, it makes me suspicious.
I was expecting you and Paul entering this day voting each other.
I can understand the hesitation if you disagree with me being town, then sure, be wary yourself, but the game wont end until you guys vote each other, and I can decide on who to trust.

I have openly said for days that you are not locktown - so why are you surprised I'm hesitant?
Of more interest to me is NTRP who claims *no* hesitation but doesn't vote - why doesn't that worry you more?

[Thor665]

Also, since yesterday you said I was town and NTRP had proven himself scum to you - I actually have a better arguement of issue with you not placing down a vote than you have one for me.
And if your stance is 'well, in LYLO I'm allowed to reset my reads' then where do you have ground to stand on to suggest that it is odd that anyone hasn't plunked down a vote yet?

[Thor665]

but you also have to agree that I'm the closest thing to conf.town this game has right now.

On multiple occasions I have indicated that I don't find this true, and have asked you why I should.

I could have treated you as locktown today if you weren't so goddamn stubborn: your posts might also mean you are just scum.

Do you find stubborn to be a scum tell?
I would say Eddie, rb, and I were, by far, the most stubborn people in this game. 2/3 have already flipped town - what makes me different?

If you vote Paul, you will just sit there and wait for me to decide on who is scum, and you don't like that.

Your vote and ability to decide is not connected to my voting before you, last I checked.
Feel free to explain how I'm wrong.

You like to say that scum did so many sub-optimal decisions, that you can't base your judgement on me with "your decision as scum wouldn't make sense", but think how close they actually got to winning the game D5.

Yes, based off you being narf in your Day 5 play, and multiple town players being narf on Day 4 and Day 3, scum came close to winning the game.

Their gambit on Eddie was an interesting choice, and if I hadn't checked GR, we might have just lost the game after that.[/qute]
Amazingly I puzzled that out on Day 4 - as everyone else should have.

I even missed my night-action N2, so there is no question whether my townplay has been sub-optimal or not, but I haven't advanced scum!winconditions in any way.

I personally don't find that you opposed scum wincon as strongly as I'd like a town read to either.
Even today you're spending more time arguing that you're town than time puzzling out who is scum - it's not as pro-town as you seem to think it is.

Oh, and if you want to really work with it: tell me how I can show you I am town, and I will do it.

I have asked you on multiple occasions why I should find you lock town.
You haven't even tried to answer.
So I'll point out that answering that question would work - albeit with the caveat that I don't think you can, and I've already made the best Una=town case possible.

But I'll expand it to - show me why you're provably more town than Thor (something else you are claiming) and that would very much excite me if it could be shown.

I do not care if you are scum who already knows I am town, I just need one of you to vote the other.
Once you do, and I don't end the game there, you both know I am town.

Then we can move on from there.

That logic literally applies to everyone, even NTRP.

[Thor665]

Spoiler: the above but with fixed quotes

but you also have to agree that I'm the closest thing to conf.town this game has right now.

On multiple occasions I have indicated that I don't find this true, and have asked you why I should.

I could have treated you as locktown today if you weren't so goddamn stubborn: your posts might also mean you are just scum.

Do you find stubborn to be a scum tell?
I would say Eddie, rb, and I were, by far, the most stubborn people in this game. 2/3 have already flipped town - what makes me different?

If you vote Paul, you will just sit there and wait for me to decide on who is scum, and you don't like that.

Your vote and ability to decide is not connected to my voting before you, last I checked.
Feel free to explain how I'm wrong.

You like to say that scum did so many sub-optimal decisions, that you can't base your judgement on me with "your decision as scum wouldn't make sense", but think how close they actually got to winning the game D5.

Yes, based off you being narf in your Day 5 play, and multiple town players being narf on Day 4 and Day 3, scum came close to winning the game.

Their gambit on Eddie was an interesting choice, and if I hadn't checked GR, we might have just lost the game after that.

Amazingly I puzzled that out on Day 4 - as everyone else should have.

I even missed my night-action N2, so there is no question whether my townplay has been sub-optimal or not, but I haven't advanced scum!winconditions in any way.

I personally don't find that you opposed scum wincon as strongly as I'd like a town read to either.
Even today you're spending more time arguing that you're town than time puzzling out who is scum - it's not as pro-town as you seem to think it is.

Oh, and if you want to really work with it: tell me how I can show you I am town, and I will do it.

I have asked you on multiple occasions why I should find you lock town.
You haven't even tried to answer.
So I'll point out that answering that question would work - albeit with the caveat that I don't think you can, and I've already made the best Una=town case possible.

But I'll expand it to - show me why you're provably more town than Thor (something else you are claiming) and that would very much excite me if it could be shown.

I do not care if you are scum who already knows I am town, I just need one of you to vote the other.
Once you do, and I don't end the game there, you both know I am town.

Then we can move on from there.

That logic literally applies to everyone, even NTRP.

Also, as addendums to how you can show you are town to me - discuss the balance of the game as you see it.
Also, though I'm still working on it, some VCA would be useful to show your alignment also - or you can wait a few days and I'll present my findings while you don't scumhunt, whichever.

[Thor665]

Your townplay during the last few days consisted of nitpicking people into submission.
Your analytical skills are good, and you have a brain between your ears, but instead of accepting the solutions presented to you, you wanted to take a sightseeing.
Good thing it worked out, me and frog had the scum called out the day Eddie got lynched.
You got there slow and steady, so it would be stupid of you not calling others plays "narf" or whatever, to show that you are the superior townie.

As far as I can tell you're complementing my play.

Just because you CAN say something isn't "proven" or "100%" doesn't mean it's not true or the likeliest way of things.

In Mafia, you are not even supposed to KNOW alignments, only scum naturally do.

Yes.
And?

The balance of the game?
In terms of what?

The roles the mod opted to include and how the three teams are balanced or not.

What kind of VCA would you like to see?

Ones that indemnify NTRP and cleanse you would be nice.
As reference look back at Day 5 when I used VCA to show that it was highly unlikely for you and frog to be a scumpair as compared to Boon and GR.

Also tell me: what motivation did scum!Una have to discredit GameReplacements claim?

If I were to be scum, I see absolutely no reason why I would've called his fakeclaim out.

Hedged bet after GR was derp enough to accidentally counterclaim frog.

You also have me as theory scum when I spent multiple days outlining the scum team - which seems even less likely as a scum play.

[Thor665]

Looking at your posts on site I feel like that is a bit untrue.

[Thor665]

You also have stuff to do here - why do you not care as much about this game?
I've even asked you a few fairly straightforward and direct questions about your stances, explained my issues with them, provided you an Una=town case, et al.
Nothing?

[Thor665]

I scum read you mostly for other reasons, but the giving up/not caring hardly endears me to you.

Why haven't you already voted me if you think Una has the right to the hammer as the towniest of the town?

[Thor665]

happy now lol?

tbh i dont think it really matters. but if it makes u happy....

It only matters because you were saying he had the hammer.
I was being slow because I'm a paranoid nutball - why were you being slow?
I've asked this three times now.

i might be a bit mad xD

Why so mad, town's winning.

So Thor, time to vote Paul now?

It would have been slightly more interesting to you to test that without asking me.
But, yeah, there's a reason I mock other people's play - and it's not because I try to play badly.

Vote: NotTheRealPaul

Should I take it by you not answering my last few questions that you aren't being derp paranoid about me anymore?
Otherwise you need to actually present that case (as I've asked before) so I can point out how derp it is.

[Thor665]

That you are basing your next strategy on the lurker saddens and prepares me for boredom in equal measure.

[Thor665]

Spoiler: The ancient post from last page with my questions

I don't think we know who holds the hammer.

If you believe Una does - why aren't you able to say why right now? Isn't that the very beginning of your Thor=scum case?
I was able to explain my frog townread yesterday in minutes and use only like two sentences - surely you're in about the same place with Una, right? Here, I'll help;

Una did directly counterclaim a scum.
Una also has some very convincing crumbs.

There, that's a good Una = town case, took seconds. Is yours different? If so, how, in not why not start with Thorscum there?

I am very interested to see a Thor=scum case considering my actions of the past few days in, y'know, sussing out the entire scum team and getting them lynched. We can wait to see your case.

I also look forward to Una showing up to do some work, I personally think the Thor=town evidence is better than the Una=town, so would love to know why he disagrees, and also why he isn't already voting Paul.

[Thor665]

Whiffed that, but I bet you can find them anyway

[Thor665]

@Una - meanwhile, while we have a week - if you want to spare us and hammer him or actually present any credible reasoning to think I'm scum, I'll be here to discuss.

[Thor665]

So much better now that I get to lynch you thanks to how abysmally your slot played.
Though it's really Paul I'm lynching, I suppose.

Good luck on your Thor=scum case.
Pay attention to the last few days and then watch as I at least show you some sympathy as you try to make a case on me.

[Thor665]

I was in arguments yesterday with Una that I was the more easily provable town of the two of is.
I stand by that belief.
If I'm scum, I'm being an utter ass to my team.
But, feel free to catch up, I'm sure you'll see giant holes in my logic

[Thor665]

And by 'two of us' I mean Una and I - you are pretty much in a scum hole and replaced into a slot that was basically busted.
I frankly think Paul was a bit of a dick to replace out and leave someone else to it.

[Thor665]

I agree if Paul was in fact scum it would have been a dick move to replace rather than take the loss, but since he's not...

Like I said - nothing but love for your situation, and you will make the game much more interesting at least.

And for the record: I don't think that my predecessor was at all scummy. I had a pretty clear picture that I was replacing into a town slot or there's no way I'd have replaced in and risked helping to give Boonskiies a win. I can't defend them if I don't know what you find scummy there because I don't see it.

This is a good situational reversal - don't make the Thor = scum case (though imply it is super clear from 'Day 2 onwards') but try to obligate someone else to make the scum case on you.

When you'd like me to make a case on you, let me know.

[Thor665]

I would love to hear your case on me. I'm expecting to hear a case on my slot that's going to boil down to weak player tells rather than anything obstensibly scummy, and I'm looking forward to pointing that out as well.

You definitely came out swinging, I'll give you that.

there's a reason that Thor immediately started making a comment about how my predecessor was a dick for replacing out there, and that's because there's no other explanations for why scum would replace out in that way.

Seriously? You're going to try to twist me being polite to you as a scumtell on me?
That's cute - and bravo for the attempt. But you and I both know that the replace out was exactly the way scum and town replace out.
That you're trying to paint it as anything else *when this game actually had a town style replace out in it* is not very impressive.

Thor claims that he was directly or largely responsible for the sussing out of scum in this game, but if you actually look back at the game you'll see that's not at all the case.

Do tell.

My predecessor was voting scum while the first scum got lynched: not the scum that's getting lynched where he'd get towncred, the other scum.
Thor is not voting anyone.

Yeah - read the day and then come back and tell me with a straight face that NTRP did anything and that I was scum trying to avoid the lynch.
Scum was literally hiding from my questions, RC - y'know, as scum being bussed do...
And you also overlook all of my meta of bussing, which in that game tossing moment is...kind of a big deal.

The argument could be made in certain circles that the self hammer suggests scum on the wagon but obviously that's wrong in this case and furthermore it's wrong for an obvious reason that the scum is fucking Boonskiies. My predecessor correctly scumread the scum who was in a better position of the two, Thor... didn't vote anyone. But more on what he was doing in that time later!

I agree your predecessor avoided voting the lynchable and logical scum, and also Boon self hammered (I don't get why we rule out the scum on the wagon logic, but...apparently the Thor not on the wagon logic is damning to me for some reason - double standard much

Thor!Town however is neither an idiot nor an incredibly anti-town player and he wouldn't as town try to quicklynch someone at the start of the game for no reason.
Thor!Scum, however, would super exaggerate a push on his buddies to distance because either it flips scum and he gets assloads of towncred or it doesn't and MAJOR DISTANCE.

1. I don't bus early as scum (I don't bus late either)
2. I ALWAYS do aggressive pushes as town - and it's a lie or a lack of knowing my playstyle to say otherwise.
3. Want to show me a town game I *don't* try to start an early aggressive wagon on? I'll agree I do it as scum too (though not on scumbuddies) but you're talking an awful lot about my meta while lying about it.

Zero scum votes on the Thor wagon in spite of Thor god tier deathtunneling a scum member and being a fairly good play to get mislynched early.

And all three top competing wagons have, even if I'm scum, only one scum voting in them - which as you know actually suggests that scum where in a 'we don't care' mode, because of the likely logic of all three wagons being on town. So they had no need or desire to push.

Transparently scum posturing to the point that if you don't see it you really have no idea how to read shit like this.

She says about an attack that Eddie *admitted* was made up lies on me.

Why does he call rb's push on him a personal whine vendetta as opposed to, y'know, thinking that he's scum for pushing an utterly unsupported conclusion?
He does repeatedly point out that rb's points are bad but he never specifically attempts to lynch or do anything besides specifically discredit rb's push on him.

Because I was scum who decided not to night kill him or mislynch him?
But instead spent all my time trying to work with him.
Remember when you said I was a good player? It's almost as though I'm having good reads, isn't it?

It's the day before LyLo and Boon has recklessly claimed a guilty on someone else.
Pushing the wagon off of Eddie is not pro-town. Eddie Cane, having been guiltied, pointed directly to two scum.
Whereas if instead, you get the lynch outside of the pair first then quicklynch Eddie while Flavor still seems like the town, it's an easy win.
Eddie going through without Thor's support led to town getting the double mislynch.

I get a distinct feeling that there was some sort of scum-scum conflict early day 1 where Thor told his teammates to not do certain things and Flavor leaf threw a fit about it which may have caused Thor to do his ridiculous deathtunnel thing. This really feels like scum were working at cross purposes: I think Boon thought he could just walk away from the fakeclaimed guilty but Thor was trying to play for the endgame.

I love how to paint me as scum now requires that I and my scumbuddies got in a war where I tried to sabotage their plans.
Are you serious right now?

Town!Thor does not go into a panic attack about a guilty the day before LyLo.
No one does. This is scum who knew that his scumpartners were making a shitty move and probably told them not to and tried to get a lynch on town before the guilty.

When town is dumb enough to derp lynch I do.
Also, what's the actual scumclaim here - that I, as scum, freaked out because town was mislynching one of their strongest PRs?

Yes, he does eventually start pushing them. But only after crowd sentiment had totally turned against them. And he -never- votes them.
And it's worth pointing out again that my predecessor has no motivation to sit on the Flavor Leaf wagon, which wasn't necessarily happening, rather than actually bus scum that's flipping.
You could say that Thor maybe should have bussed, but Thor doesn't generally end up being on his scumbuddies wagons even if they're obvscum.

Interesting how you PBP me practically, for all of Day 1, and then at the major days it's 'Thor bussed out of RAEGE and only because everyone else already agreed.
Which ignores the huge arguments I actually had and led those two days.
And requires the 'Thor hated his partners and lynched them out of spite' theory.
Also a lot of made up claims of how I play.

[Thor665]

@RC - here's my case on you.

Why did both of your scumbuddies choose to paint Two as their partner in the war and your slot as obviously part of the Una/frog scum team (which would be that distancing you've mentioned), and paint me (their scumbuddy in your world) as the decision maker.
Get the votes to work out that way.
And then have me rage argue with them instead of trying to debate with NTRP and Two
And then the only slot I do debate with is Two - to get him to switch to my buddies.
While NTRP lurks out, like distanced scum should do.

Just describe their plan there, if it makes me laugh enough maybe I'll self vote and hand you the scum win.
But I am hard to make laugh. (though you're doing pretty well with this contortion act, kudos for the good fight).

[Thor665]

Fascinating how my scum case doesn't require scum hidden betrayals and tons of sub-optimal play.

Heck, just look at the kills and tell me that's not Boon plus two sheep partners.

[Thor665]

What are you so caught up on this spite bus thing? Barring the early day 1 deathtunnel on Flavor Leaf, which I said might have been grudge- but was more likely just distancing.

I'm caught up on it because it's so silly as to be a very strong way to showcase how reachy your case for me being scum is.

I'm hoping you didn't personally support the double fakeclaim. You never bussed shit considering you were repeatedly trying to look

off

the 1v1s involving scum for lynches and on scum in general.

As long as you ignore the three days where I actively talked about the 1v1s this is true.
Which means it's a straight up lie.

Hey, you do do aggressive pushes! You don't quicklynch people at the start of Day 1. If you've started doing that at some point, that makes me very sad.

Your inability to support the made up meta you're claiming for me is noted.

And even if you -did- do something that I'm unfairly misrepresenting as not at all bussing, you're still scum. So it's not really my job to go through it.
I've been in this game for 24 hours. I probably do not fully understand what happened in context:

I love you RC, I really do.
But, yeah, I agree you're trying to slog uphill.

...Why wouldn't they do this? Glorious Thor with his gigantic hammer rides in to save town from it's own feeble minds. I agree this makes Two obviously town though!

They wouldn't do it because in your narrative it would be handing the scumteam win to the player you're claiming hated the plan to such an amazing degree he was willing to game throw.

So...again, why did they do this?

I mean: fervent yes you should have just lynched town in 7 way? Why didn't you? I don't know!

Clearly I wanted to game throw for...random reason.

So we agree that me, as scum and you as town, requires me to have made some really random bad plans?
Got it.

Again sounds like you're trying to be a white knight upon a shining steed, but I still question your mischaracterization of yourself as a primary force in getting either scum lynched.
Even if you were and I'm seeing things unfairly because I know that you're scum, that just means that they planned around you endgaming.

Uh-huh.
Why did I plan for endgame past a double fakeclaim double down mylo?

While NTRP lurks out like NTRP does in the majority of games that happen on site. Why would this scumteam EVER put their eggs in the NTRP basket?
It's clear that from the point of the fakeclaims onward that they felt either thought they were going to quick win or had a backup plan.

I agree - it's why they didn't put any effort into him other than the distance.

I mean I still disagree from what I've seen that you were an active part in getting your buddies lynched. But even if you were, it matches with your general scum play and still makes a lot more sense than NTRP randomly bussing the rest of his team then giving this game absolutely no effort.

You refuse to admit that I bussed but claimed NTRP did?
Another really convenient double standard.

Unless you guys actually thought one of you would be protected somehow and tried to no kill, which actually wouldn't surprise me.
Sunlit I have questions about but none of the other nightkills seem bad, but rb and Frog (both times) seem pretty reasonable.

Oh. and WHY THE SMURF DOES SCUM NTRP START DOUBTCASTING FROG, CONFTOWN BY DOCTOR, WHEN THEY WERE JUST GOING TO KILL THEM AT NIGHT?

Because he was desperate to try to protect his scumbuddies in their fake claims and that's why the scumbuddies started to distance from him?
You're not supposed to make my case for me.

[Thor665]

@Thor, I'm starting to lean strongly towards you being the scum here.

If that is true then I don't have any energy in me anymore to explain how dumb that is.

Please try to clarify your own train of thought after the moment Boon claimed he had a guilty on Eddie.

I openly explained all my thoughts as I had them - reading my iso is understanding my thoughts.
What is remotely confusing or hidden about the thoughts I had?

[Thor665]

@Una - just admit that the case you're being "swayed" by is one where RC is having to describe a narrative where the scum team broke down in their QT and I went rogue.

As long as you're willing to openly agree that the narrative there makes sense to you I'm fine with you hammering me, because then you and I can have a very long conversation about 'illogic and probability'

And if you DON'T buy that case - what the hell are you doing wasting my time?

[Thor665]

Even now when RC has made an effort to case scum!Thor, your comment to every paragraph is just belittling and not actually trying to explain his points.

It's not my job to explain RC's points - it's my job to point out how they're illogical and don't work.

And if you are town, it doesn't make a good impression that you are not willing to make a case here.

I did make a case on RC.

I also asked you some actual questions and you didn't answer them.
I'm not randomly going to restate my iso for no reason.

[Thor665]

I openly explained all my thoughts as I had them - reading my iso is understanding my thoughts.
What is remotely confusing or hidden about the thoughts I had?

There is my question.

[Thor665]

@RC - here's my case on you.

Why did both of your scumbuddies choose to paint Two as their partner in the war and your slot as obviously part of the Una/frog scum team (which would be that distancing you've mentioned), and paint me (their scumbuddy in your world) as the decision maker.
Get the votes to work out that way.
And then have me rage argue with them instead of trying to debate with NTRP and Two
And then the only slot I do debate with is Two - to get him to switch to my buddies.
While NTRP lurks out, like distanced scum should do.

Just describe their plan there, if it makes me laugh enough maybe I'll self vote and hand you the scum win.
But I am hard to make laugh. (though you're doing pretty well with this contortion act, kudos for the good fight).

There is my case on RC.

Learn to read.

[Thor665]

And even if you -did- do something that I'm unfairly misrepresenting as not at all bussing, you're still scum. So it's not really my job to go through it.
I've been in this game for 24 hours. I probably do not fully understand what happened in context:

I love you RC, I really do.
But, yeah, I agree you're trying to slog uphill.

To be perfectly frank, if you can read the above exchange and go 'yeah, RC's case makes sense' then there's no helping you.

[Thor665]

You chose wisely.

Why the hell were you asking for things I'd already provided/didn't provide and yet you didn't explain why you needed them?

[Thor665]

Also, RC was given a BullSmurf situation. As I said.
It was good try hard though.

[Thor665]

I'm proud of RC, myself.
Hard situation, wonky replace out, tried anyway and walled up a lot of ridiculous awesome.

[Thor665]

My favorite was the multiple hypocritical statements and the repeated choice to empty hand wave and just keep trucking

[Thor665]

If I had made it clear from the start that I'm gonna vote Paul, I think Thor would've made me go through a lot of hoops and Paul might not have voted for Thor, but for me instead.

The only reason I had issue with you on the final day was the following;

1. Game balance did look a little wonky - felt like town needed one more vanilla.
2. Your insane claim that you had the hammer and consequently the implication that you were the most town looking player.

[Thor665]

I would say Una's claim and crumbs were the best thing he did this game.
That was pro level stuff that I wish more people would do.

[Thor665]

btw thor, I said it in the dead thread but I don't actually think you're bad. that's just how I play. rb clearly disliked you entering the game, I went with it.

I stand by my opinion of how you opted to play the game.
Intentionally antagonizing someone doesn't get you town/scum tells - it gets you antagonized person tells (that, also, led to you reading me blatantly wrong) so what's the point if antagonized people don't drop better tells than non-antagonized ones?

I agree that rb had some personal thing with me, I still don't know what that was about, but it was a headache.

[Thor665]

i never actually pushed your lynch, and you weren't in my final scum pool at all. as for you reading me wrong: how?

I was in your scum pool a lot, never with a case, and from my perspective you helped push me multiple times to near lynch obligating me to waste time in defense rather than offense.

I never particularly read you wrong, and didn't say I did, really. There was a point I thought you were scum, but eventually I figured out you actually just played like that, and after that the only thing I had to do was waste time batting back your attacks.

All this praise for a game I lost but when I clean sweep town everyone bitches about how bad town was for letting me win

Was town bad in the other game though?
And you do deserve praise for having to pick up what you were left with and try to carry it across the line.

[Thor665]

Yay town. Big props to Thor and u n a for figuring it out. Glad to have my first win under my belt.

Thank you. You did okay in parts when you seemed to discuss stuff.
I was not kidding though that you should spend some time in the Newbie queue though. I was half pissed that Penguin opted to accept the misformatted hammer vote on Eddie as I felt it favored scum too strongly. You should not have hammered there because you clearly didn't have a grasp of what the theory scum tells were in that situation. I hope you kept reading and recognized the holes in the Eddie case so you never do that again.

[Thor665]

Lol you don't learn how to truly play in the newbie queue. Experience is the best teacher.

You learn proper hammer etiquette and procedure though.
Which is kind of the point.

I may not be a pro but I don't believe I am a newbie. I'm less likely to listen to advice from players that are insulting me for being newish. I did predict the scumteam correctly and got Night killed for it, however. I think I am improving nut still have work to improve on.

I don't think I insulted you prior to the derphammer - if I did I absolutely apologize.
I do not apologize for any perceived insults of your play skill after that hammer though.

[Thor665]

I caveat that I think Unabombah's play is wrong on principle because I think Thor would always be townread over NTRP regardless of alignment: but Thor did a good job of responding to my walls and towntelling and Unabombah did hammer correctly, so again well played.

Yeah, I've heard of the 'reset' theory, and I think it has some merit insomuch as I do advocate that there is a lot of logic around the ol' 'if you're in lylo with an obv. scum and an obv. town vote the obv. town' advice - but you also need to parse that in context of the kills, and it's foolish to totally forget the past.
It's a wonky line to walk though, and I say that with an exceedingly impressive win ratio when I get to lylo.

Lol you don't learn how to truly play in the newbie queue. Experience is the best teacher.

Depends on the group and the IC. But it's the only place where you're particularly likely to see an actual effort at teaching (in some games anyway).

I know I'm less insulting and more explainy in Newbies

[Thor665]

Dead Thread
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