Mini Normal 1931 | Endgame

[UnaBombaH]

The fact you were still trying to convince him shows Thor that our 3 is the town 3.

This just screams manipulation.
"X shows Thor Y" is you trying to place your own thoughts on him.

And TiaM completely making a 180 turn after saying he still suspects you most is confirming him as scum to me too.
You decided to go with a full-on play to win today, because you realize how much you lose ground if either of you or GR flip today.

This day seems like the real "decisive moment" to me, if we survive today, we most likely win the game.

[UnaBombaH]

but I was weighting whether he was SK or BP-mafia.

Either are scum, why would it matter?
So that's a lie right there.

HONESTLY??
I have said the same thing so many times now, and all you can do is say I'm lying.

Tell me why Mafia!UnaB would hesitate killing a confirmed SK?
Tell me, I beg of you.

[UnaBombaH]

So andwer questions. Talk to people solving. Hell, talk to your "confirmed town" buddy and explain the game state.

My problem with this is that I don't have a confirmed town buddy until Flavor flips PR/not PR, since I guess we can all agree they have at least one.
I know one Vanilla scum, and if Flavor flips another, I can be sure that you are town.
If FL flips a PR, I'll have to try and value whether scum might still have another.

You and Paul could be either way.

[UnaBombaH]

Then you should still not be talking to known scum, so...

..but I get baited to answer so easily..

[UnaBombaH]

I would say the biggest issue with calling Una/Frog town is Frog functionally claimed just to try and get Eddie lynched, and Una's claim is a little awkward considering the timing and what some of the claimed targets are.

Interesting perspective.
The reason why I initially trusted frog, was because I saw his claim as honest.
It happened to give fuel to FLs blame on Eddie, but IT ALSO SUPPORTED EDDIES NIGHT ACTIONS, which to me, are the best explanation we have on why there was a missed NK.

My claim is awkward because I didn't get to claim before Eddie was hammered, I went to sleep on a day/twilight that happened to be faithful for town.
Wavemode didn't get to claim either.

[UnaBombaH]

@Thor I get that there are situations where GR is the only scum. And I understand the GR vs Frog 1v1. That's what I was alluding to in my post where I said that one lynch doesn't solve this. But the way FL and GR and Una and Frog seem to be teaming up/grouping I'm pretty sure the team will come down to GR/Fl or Frog/Una.

Does that make sense?

I think Thor is being cautious to avoid quick and fatal mislynches on a future LyLo/MyLo situation.
If we accept as fact that FL+GR=scumteam, then lynching GR today might lead to a quicklynch tomorrow on FL.
While I personally don't think it is a mistake, there is a chance for it, and Thor wants to avoid it.

Think of it like this: we catch scum today, and then immediately lose tomorrow because we "autolynch" his "100000% sure scumpartner" who just got played.
I assume this is what he thinks.

[UnaBombaH]

I seriously can't be the only one to think that Una targeting GR if he was a town role cop was a good idea to target GR? Only motivation in doing so is to claim a guilty on GR. Only motivation. There was no reason to expect to get any other result other than role cop. The action is effectively a guilty setup.

I almost fell for this again..
I had already written a snarky answer to this, but I honestly try to play nice now.

[UnaBombaH]

I'll need to chew to this.
I sort of might have checked frog or Boon last night, and I want to hear from him before I speak my mind.

[UnaBombaH]

I'll need to chew to this.
I sort of might have checked frog or Boon last night, and I want to hear from him before I speak my mind.

What do you need to hear?

I watched you last night, and nobody visited you.

And Boon still confirms he is JOAT and has spent all his actions?

[UnaBombaH]

I'll drive home and try to clarify my thoughts to you all in few hours.

I'm relieved we got through yesterday, at least my alignment should now be for certain.

[UnaBombaH]

Why is your alignment for certain?
Considering the kills I have to accept that scum is making poor decisions - which pretty much removes you from confirmed town in a hot second.

Oh my.. I don't feel like saying anything after all.

So tell me how we solve the game from here if we assume the scum isn't even trying to play optimally?

Also tell me your opinion on the likelyhood of Scum!JOAT vs Scum!Watcher.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm still trying to resolve my thoughts, but one question for all to chew on:

to which potential scum, frog or Boon, killing TiaM would be more logical?
To me, not killing Thor is somewhat more suspicious action anyway, since I feel like Paul and TiaM would both be more easily swayed and convinced in LyLo.

So even if Paul is scum, he should've wanted TiaM to LyLo over Thor.

[UnaBombaH]

ps im a little annoyed everyone thinks im so easily swayed. but *shrug* its not the worst reputation to have (is it?)

I didn't mean to be rude.
But to me, Thor seems like the most stubborn player around, so compared to him, we are all easier to sway.

[UnaBombaH]

I would advocate doing the same thing I've been doing - looking for logic holes, and then wrapping a noose around them. GR's claim was pure terrible when he did it - didn't stop me from figuring out he was scum without an investigation. So, do that.

I could see both being potential roles in this game, though I find frog's likelihood to be scum to be rather thin if you're asking me which I think is more likely to be scum of the two.

My mind is already in the future days.
I do not care what deductions anyone else makes at this point, I have already gone through this game so many times.

Boon is scum to me, and I'm going to lynch him today.
I'm not going to even waste thought on anyone else anymore.
If we lynch him and we lose, all glory to hypno-frog.
Why?
Because my initial hunch, gutread and logic all screamed to me scum!FL when he claimed a "guilty" on Eddie.
Before any other claim shenanigans.
Before GR or frog said anything, before I checked GR for his fake-ass claim.
So write all you want, but before the deadline, I will vote for Boon.

And tomorrow (if the game continues) I'm going to be left with you (Thor) and NTRP.
If frog doesn't die tonight, he is pretty much lockscum to me, but I'll be better informed tomorrow.

@Game Replacement - you're posting in other games. Citing Night Actions takes a few moments. Crafting a fake claim takes days. Tick tock.
Also don't forget to popcorn, I know it has been exceedingly hard for everyone to manage that, but it's part of the claim.

This is how I feel about what you're currently doing Una.

I don't care if you feel that way.
Trying to paint me as scum and/or calling my claim fake would be dumb as fuck.
You could possibly pull that off and turn someone against me in LyLo, but if so, then that one townie doesn't deserve to win anyway.
I had a creeping suspicion towards you the moment TiaM ended up becoming the NK, and any chance you try to throw shade on me, my suspicion gets stronger.

[UnaBombaH]

I just want to let others play and talk if they want to, I'm just very much decided on Boon myself.

If I vote him, he could potentially selfhammer and deny the time we might need to think amongst ourselves on who the potential third scummy is.

My investigation was obviously on Boon. He is a JOAT.
But in my mind he is almost certainly scum!JOAT anyway so..

[UnaBombaH]

I was going to respond to Una's wall of random - but the above actually sums it up pretty well.
So I'll just strongly second everything said here and add two questions.

1. If you believe what you're saying Una, why aren't you already voting Boon right now?
2. Why haven't you claimed your result yet?

Like, literally neither lack of claim nor lack of voe makes any sense if you believe the silly things you're saying you do.


@Boon - while we're at people doing silly things, why are you hard ducking my question so much that you're refusing to talk to me?

1. I still want to think about the potential D7 LyLo. I don't see any reason discussing it further, because that would only make everything more muddy in terms of who scum will NK.
They have so many options to do, depending who is the third scum, so that is where my mind is at.
I do not see what useful conversation we can still have regarding frog/Boon, I think pretty much everything has been said in previous days.

I'm reading the earlier pages of the game, and looking for the third scum who has managed to slip the net of the likes of Mulch/Mario/rb/Eddie...and/or Thor so far.

2. I didn't feel like claiming my result, because it didn't prove any fakeclaims.
I was already fairly confident that Boon is JOAT and frog is watcher, they wouldn't have taken their respectful gambits with fakeclaims, GR was the one to take the hit with that.
I wanted to check TiaM or NTRP, but I was afraid scum would kill exactly there, and so I acted like YOU told me to.

[UnaBombaH]

1. So you want to think about it - but not have discussion about it. So the odd two days of night phase plus all the time tomorrow after you see a theory scum kill isn't enough for you?

Yeah, the net of Mulch, Mario, rb, and Eddie - masters of their case making craft...

2. If you acted like THOR had told you to we would have had this claim about four days ago instead of wondering why you were hiding info for that long. The claim of your result is about your alignment, not anyone elses.

1. I do not want to fall in to the same ditch we did D5 with FL.
So for now, I won't try to provoke anyone, I'll just answer if anyone else wants anything out of me.

2. ....right. I do not even disagree.

Why weren't you the NK, as you are the best townplayer alive in the game?

frog and Boon had to stay alive (regardless of alignment) for their 1v1 purposes.
Why TiaM?

[UnaBombaH]

frog/boon scumteam? anyone?

boon and gr push una for a mislynch yesterday while frog pushes them. one way they win ither way frog gets towncred.

Paul, I need you to sheep me here, ok?

If you are Town, the scum team left is Boon+Thor.
If you are scum, you want me to like you for D6, so just follow my vote, ok?

[UnaBombaH]

Fck it, I have time to wrote now.
I'm getting frustrated with this game.

@frog: do you agree with me on the following (find it likely/reasonable):
Scumteam is Boon+Thor -> they had to kill either Paul or TiaM to leave you alive as the "mastermind" for LyLo, and they didn't afford to lose their NK last night on me.
TiaM over Paul because I intentionally made a big noise last day I was gonna check TiaM, so they would deny all the little info they can.

They believe that Boon is in a tough spot and likely lynched today, so they have to worry about the last LyLo to come.
They kill TiaM first, and then tonight they go for Paul/no-kill and leave it at a MyLo.

The choice will be between you and Thor, and either me or Paul are left to swing the hammer.

Agreedo?

[UnaBombaH]

I don't think it is logical to either, as I said. It was a bad kill.

In a theory Boon scum - he killed TiaM because Two was the most aggressive voted on GR and had Boon in his sights.
In a theory frog scum - he killed TiaM because he had to avoid killing in the PRs and probably figured that kid's voting recordwas too wild and wooly to trust in a situation where town votes can confirm scum location.

I read this, but I don't frankly approve of the answer "it was a bad kill".
Last day was so much full of BS because you wanted to humor the idea of scum!frog over scum!GR (which is fine I guess, it was good investigating), and there was discussion on the scum-side that their claim-gambit would be stupid if real.
Well it turns out, they did gambit, and very much knowingly.
So why did they opt to do the bad play intentionally?

I'm fairly certain their gambit wasn't bad, it was just two-sided.

1) to potentially win the game D5 on a hasty lynch on either me or frog.
2) to get a towncred-Thor to last LyLo vs frog who COULD have played us all. COULD have.

I'm also fairly certain my very poor townplay and late claim lead to scum having to mix their plans up: they didn't expect a full Rolecop to still be around.

[UnaBombaH]

How do you know remaining scum does not have a power role we are currently ignorant about? Why would scum have an Odd-Night Watcher in this setup?

Scum should almost surely have a protective role IMO.
So my guess is that JOAT has a doc/rolestop/roleblock set, or a very similar protect-heavy one.
Alongside that, a watcher would actually make a lot of sense, but I still don't think you are scum.

[UnaBombaH]

Oh, I wanted to be polite and not end the day so quickly.

If Thor or anyone else would like to do the honors, or has something they still want to discuss, go ahead.
I'm now feeling more ready for next day, I got what I wanted out of my posting today.

[UnaBombaH]

3. Una potentially offering up the paranoia fest that is his Thor=scum case so I can smoosh it.

I wanted to encourage both Boon and Paul to post. Paul did that, and I feel like I can confidently scumread him now.
I have townread you the whole game, that hasn't really changed.

[UnaBombaH]

V/LA till Friday

So I guess we will have our stand-off then.

Are there misconceptions on who holds the hammer and why?

[UnaBombaH]

I don't think we know who holds the hammer.

If you believe Una does - why aren't you able to say why right now? Isn't that the very beginning of your Thor=scum case?
I was able to explain my frog townread yesterday in minutes and use only like two sentences - surely you're in about the same place with Una, right? Here, I'll help;

Una did directly counterclaim a scum.
Una also has some very convincing crumbs.

There, that's a good Una = town case, took seconds. Is yours different? If so, how, in not why not start with Thorscum there?

I am very interested to see a Thor=scum case considering my actions of the past few days in, y'know, sussing out the entire scum team and getting them lynched. We can wait to see your case.

I also look forward to Una showing up to do some work, I personally think the Thor=town evidence is better than the Una=town, so would love to know why he disagrees, and also why he isn't already voting Paul.

It's posts like these why I'm suspecting Thor.

It's LyLo so obviously I have to reset my reads and take the time to re-read both of you.

You try so hard to make me NOT CONFIRMED townie, that it almost feels like town. Almost.

[UnaBombaH]

Also: this is why I asked if there are any misconceptions on who holds the hammer.

I am the townie 100% of this group, no matter how much you would like to point out how You got all the scum lynched.
I would've gotten the exact same lynches, I just wanted to take the potential PR out first.

I checked Paul last night because I was fairly certain frog would be the kill.
You are both Vanilla.

[UnaBombaH]

Is this actual suspicion, or like yesterday when you said you were suspicious for the same reason and then said you were lying about that?
Also - what makes that post suspicious

Because if you are as good of a player as you say you are, you should already know I am locktown -> you should vote Paul.

But since you are hesitant to do so, it makes me suspicious.
I was expecting you and Paul entering this day voting each other.
I can understand the hesitation if you disagree with me being town, then sure, be wary yourself, but the game wont end until you guys vote each other, and I can decide on who to trust.

[UnaBombaH]

@Paul, please vote Thor.
The game won't end there, you should (both) know that, and I can finally move on with my assessment.
If you really are caught up with the game, and have read my ISO, you should know there is no doubt about my alignment.

@Thor, go read the previous days and tell me how me as scum makes any sense.
Honestly, no, don't even tell us that.
You are so good of a player that you actually can do that, I am sure, but you also have to agree that I'm the closest thing to conf.town this game has right now.
Then vote Paul, and see how the game won't end in a quickhammer.

I could have treated you as locktown today if you weren't so goddamn stubborn: your posts might also mean you are just scum.
You just need to accept the fact that you can't control the outcome of today if you want Town to win - you just aren't in the position to do that.
I read your earlier interaction as prideful: I assume you like to be the one to "catch the whole scum-team" and lead town to victory?
I do not care for such things, but the fact is that I am the one who should be undecided in this LyLo, not you.
If you vote Paul, you will just sit there and wait for me to decide on who is scum, and you don't like that.
Please, just cooperate.

[UnaBombaH]

Also, since yesterday you said I was town and NTRP had proven himself scum to you - I actually have a better arguement of issue with you not placing down a vote than you have one for me.
And if your stance is 'well, in LYLO I'm allowed to reset my reads' then where do you have ground to stand on to suggest that it is odd that anyone hasn't plunked down a vote yet?

Because me as scum makes no sense.

You like to say that scum did so many sub-optimal decisions, that you can't base your judgement on me with "your decision as scum wouldn't make sense", but think how close they actually got to winning the game D5.
Their gambit on Eddie was an interesting choice, and if I hadn't checked GR, we might have just lost the game after that.
I even missed my night-action N2, so there is no question whether my townplay has been sub-optimal or not, but I haven't advanced scum!winconditions in any way.

[UnaBombaH]

I often say someone has "proven" something, but that is just the way I talk and write.
Obviously there's always a chance for error in logical deduction, but using extreme terms often gets the best results.

[UnaBombaH]

Oh, and if you want to really work with it: tell me how I can show you I am town, and I will do it.
I do not care if you are scum who already knows I am town, I just need one of you to vote the other.
Once you do, and I don't end the game there, you both know I am town.

Then we can move on from there.

[UnaBombaH]

Yes, based off you being narf in your Day 5 play, and multiple town players being narf on Day 4 and Day 3, scum came close to winning the game.

Good thing you never made a mistake anywhere.
Your townplay during the last few days consisted of nitpicking people into submission.
Your analytical skills are good, and you have a brain between your ears, but instead of accepting the solutions presented to you, you wanted to take a sightseeing.
Good thing it worked out, me and frog had the scum called out the day Eddie got lynched.
You got there slow and steady, so it would be stupid of you not calling others plays "narf" or whatever, to show that you are the superior townie.

Just because you CAN say something isn't "proven" or "100%" doesn't mean it's not true or the likeliest way of things.

In Mafia, you are not even supposed to KNOW alignments, only scum naturally do.

Also, as addendums to how you can show you are town to me - discuss the balance of the game as you see it.
Also, though I'm still working on it, some VCA would be useful to show your alignment also - or you can wait a few days and I'll present my findings while you don't scumhunt, whichever.

The balance of the game?
In terms of what?

What kind of VCA would you like to see?

[UnaBombaH]

Also tell me: what motivation did scum!Una have to discredit GameReplacements claim?

If I were to be scum, I see absolutely no reason why I would've called his fakeclaim out.

[UnaBombaH]

PAUL...PLEASE...I'm dying here.

I just want to win this game within a reasonable time so that I can get back to Rome and learn how to play..
They don't let me start games as newbie anymore, and I don't qualify as an SE yet..
I want to play Matrix6 and claim Bulletproof..

Can't you see I'm hurting?

[UnaBombaH]

I was around to hammer.

[UnaBombaH]

So Thor, time to vote Paul now?

[UnaBombaH]

It would have been slightly more interesting to you to test that without asking me.
But, yeah, there's a reason I mock other people's play - and it's not because I try to play badly.

I toyed with the idea of "testing" you, but then realized that only an idiot wouldn't see the implications.

Should I take it by you not answering my last few questions that you aren't being derp paranoid about me anymore?
Otherwise you need to actually present that case (as I've asked before) so I can point out how derp it is.

I honestly am not sure how to approach casing you right now.
I feel like Paul HAS to be the one to speak next.

If he can't make a compelling enough case, it would end up being me forcing myself to suspect you over him (which is stupid).

By the way, all that talk about me being obv.town and trying to get you to vote each other was only to get to this position, and to see in the process which one of you had to force their actions more.

So Paul, whenever you are ready, I'd say you have the mic.

[UnaBombaH]

RC, if you just could, would you mind walking me through your thought process when you read on from the part where Boon faked a guilty on Eddie.

That is the moment after which Thor started to feel more forced to me, and I'd like to hear your interpretation of it.

Like, as an outsider, how did you see the scumteam form from that point on?

[UnaBombaH]

I've been reading the game for ~4 hours now, and I just have to say that Eddie and frog both were rather set on town!Thor and scum!Paul.

[UnaBombaH]

Oh ffs

Also this is a questionable "bah" because it implies Wave was tracking Paul and saw him coming..!

[UnaBombaH]

RC has been making very good points so far, but I wouldn't expect less from my hero..

And what throws me off the most, is how Thor has been acting.
I know that his annoyance/condescending way of posting should be NAI, but it just grinds my gears.
Also all the hesitation when FL+GR fake-claims were happening..ech.
Not willing to admit I am town, even though me as scum SHOULD be easily discredited when you go read my ISO around D5-D6.
Especially today, when it was just the three of us, I can't shake the feeling that he was hoping for Paul/me to vote each other. (which he probably was, no matter his alignment)

@Thor, I'm starting to lean strongly towards you being the scum here.
Please try to clarify your own train of thought after the moment Boon claimed he had a guilty on Eddie.

[UnaBombaH]

@Una - just admit that the case you're being "swayed" by is one where RC is having to describe a narrative where the scum team broke down in their QT and I went rogue.

As long as you're willing to openly agree that the narrative there makes sense to you I'm fine with you hammering me, because then you and I can have a very long conversation about 'illogic and probability'

And if you DON'T buy that case - what the hell are you doing wasting my time?

Because to me it doesn't feel like you understand the need to explain yourself, OR you don't know how to.

Even now when RC has made an effort to case scum!Thor, your comment to every paragraph is just belittling and not actually trying to explain his points.
And if you are town, it doesn't make a good impression that you are not willing to make a case here.
If I hadn't been able to get Paul to vote you, I would have been forced to make a case myself, but as it happened, you are the one in that position.
There have been times in the last two game-days where I have felt that you could indeed be scum, and was getting paranoid by the fact how you dodged the NKs while someone like TiaM got capped (who had his reads ALL WRONG AND UPSIDE DOWN D5.)
I've been told that there is a reason why anyone makes it to LyLo, and yours would most likely be the fact that you are the scum yourself.

[UnaBombaH]

But I am hard to make laugh. (though you're doing pretty well with this contortion act, kudos for the good fight).

So with that I guess I'm ready to end this.

I base my decision on my teammates more than my own reads/hunches, although I did townread you earlygame when others scumread/harrassed you..
I guess I just want you to be scum!

Good writing RC, and if you are really town, I'm very sorry.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[UnaBombaH]

Why the hell were you asking for things I'd already provided/didn't provide and yet you didn't explain why you needed them?

Eh, just wanted to make a twist at the end.

It would've been a bit anti-climatic if I had just voted RC the moment he joined.

[UnaBombaH]

Eh, got carried by you guys, but thanks anyway!

[UnaBombaH]

Night 6
NotTheRealPaul kills frog - frog - Town Odd-Night Watcher is killed
UnaBombaH rolecops Thor665 - Thor665 is Vanilla

Wait what?
I checked Paul night 6..

[UnaBombaH]

what made you decide to do rc? or was that always going to happen

When TiaM died, I realized what LyLo it was going to be (obv).

I started to re-read the game then and there, and realized how certain people had become of Thor being town.
Or Paul being scum, either way the message was clear.

So I tried to come up with a plan on how to survive the LyLo myself first.
I was honestly worried that Thor might think I'm scum and therefore I tried to plead to both of them (to activate the scum) to vote.
If I had made it clear from the start that I'm gonna vote Paul, I think Thor would've made me go through a lot of hoops and Paul might not have voted for Thor, but for me instead.

So basically I let you guys solve the game for me while I bounced around and rolecop'ed myself to endgame.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm proud of RC, myself.
Hard situation, wonky replace out, tried anyway and walled up a lot of ridiculous awesome.

Yeah, RC is very good.

He is my hero in this site.

[UnaBombaH]

well done, unabombah.

Thanks man!

I almost blew it with my sassy hinting in twilight after your hammer..
You got unlucky with me being the RC: I didn't have a doubt in my mind that I should check you!

[UnaBombaH]

Oh ffs

Also this is a questionable "bah" because it implies Wave was tracking Paul and saw him coming..!

I tracked FL. After eddie flipped town I figured out it was likely a FL/GR/Paul or FL/GR/Thor team and they were just trying to next-level us or something with their fake claims. If I had known FL was Boon that just would have further assured me of that lol

Yea I was kidding with this, actually had me laughing!

[UnaBombaH]

Well played town.
I think that scum really dropped the ball with all the fakeclaiming and it ended up biting them in the ass badly.

I get the feeling Una was never going to reconsider, at least for me, and if that's the case you should have just hammered without getting a replacement

Not in this particular game, no.

I have been taught in one of my first games though, that you sort of "should" always reset your reads in LyLo, or atleast try your hardest to take distance to your previous stance.
At least while you read the game again or whatnot.

Well, I tried to do that, but frog and Eddie both explicitly named Paul as scum over Thor, and my own initial read on him was town, so..

Nightmare LyLo for me would have been deciding between TiaM and Paul.

[UnaBombaH]

No doubt