Mini Normal 1957: The Perfect LUV Game [Endgame]

[davesaz]

Hi all, this will take a little time, especially with not knowing most of the players.

[davesaz]

I have read through the bottom of page 8.

Spoiler: catchup notes

Page 1, the table by Flavor Leaf caught my eye, no idea what it is. The page has some provocative RVS.
32 Nauci mentions "everyone has day chat" c/b fake townslip
35 Nauci Arsonist soft, or big joke?
Page 2, Derpy Hooves is pre-announcing not pushing? Porkens is reaction testing?
58 Another table from Flavor Leaf. Wonder if this is a pattern?
75 Derpy's reaction to Wossi's 62 is pretty arrogant
101 Agree with Nauci's point, Derpy was shading
124 Check if Nauci says later why XL is scum
142 Xiao makes an interesting point here, but it's bad to say why it's interesting
156/157 Tchill & Derpy agreeing Wossi is scum.
160 is a good point on Wossi
161 animal block confirmed by what?
172 Derpy tries to make a Wossi contradiction between this thread and hood, but it isn't confirmable
183 Wossi gives his side of hood story. Makes sense with join date, though it could be a new alt
185 Derpy's point is still good though.
188/194 is correct theory wise though, I'm really not sold on which is scum (if either are)
197/198 Animetrix makes some good observations on Xiao Long

Flavor Leaf posted something that isn't a table, interesting (everything from that slot up to page 8 was a table). Suppose I'll do a quick iso there.

[davesaz]

5 tables followed by some regular posts. Low post count can probably be excused by the implied V/LA which happened in the middle?
I would provide the pressure requested in 598 but a single vote is hardly pressure (haven't got the VC imprinted so there

may

be more) and I'm more interested in catching up first.

[davesaz]

More catchup, pages 9 to 16.

Spoiler: notes

207 Wave naked votes tchill -- I thought tchill looked fairly townish
212 Flavor leaf's thought on Animetrix is valid, the things that Animetrix look good but could be too easy.
218 isn't a bad point but it could be an indirect chainsaw instead
221 interesting connection, wondering how it can hold up
228 Dunkerdoodles makes an interesting tinfoil on Derpy+Wossi. Doubt it's right but look later if one of them flips scum.
229/230 by Nauci seem town motivated
233 Xiao quotes a couple Porkens posts. I missed the RIP animal block thing. But I don't see any reason to question Porkens moving vote to someone he scumreads more.
245 interesting assertion about Animetrix -- who does Animetrix scumread?
265 it would help me to know who Xiao thinks is Tyrrion. Tchill?
319,320,321 are all good

looking

posts by Xiao, but are they damage control or real?
Page 15, Oh look a fakehammer, why am I not surprised <rolleyes>
379 Flavor Leaf breaks from the table posting (as previously noted). Yeah, Porkens could be scum...
393 hadn't thought about buddying interactions, not a bad point by Xiao

[davesaz]

Read stuff after my last catchup post. Got confused by the appearance of Gurgi, must have missed where the mod announced the replace-in.

@MOD: you haven't put me into Mumble's slot in the OP

Resuming catchup at page 17.
Advance warning, on Tuesday and Wednesday I need to actually pay attention at work and probably won't read or post during the day at all.

[davesaz]

Bottom of 25, found Gurgi replacing in before the mod announced it. I'm OK with the content provided but just in case nobody has pointed this out yet, the timing is NAI.
Still another 11 to read, manageable as long as my family doesn't slam me with stuff to do.

[davesaz]

Sorry, family needed more driving around than I hoped for and then work week started. And I have the big crunch days coming tomorrow.
There are some pages I didn't read, but I got enough gist to at least match my usual (ugly) d1 read quality

Chickadee - weak town
Derpy Hooves - strong town (or a decent gambit and I love to tinfoil)
davesaz - town ofc
Tchill13 - gonna need a re-read, don't remember enough to make a call, hence null
Lord Gurgi - IIRC saw some stuff that I'd call *correct* but scum could do that too; medium town nonetheless
Porkens - weak scum, mostly just a feeling
Flavor Leaf - Activity level is messing me up here because I'd expect more activity and a gambit or two from this player's town meta, but I'm still inclined to say very weak town
Dunkerdoodles - not memorable enough to read; probably a playstyle thing because I usually have that problem; someday I need to actually compile dossiers on people to be able to remember this stuff
Animetrix - weak scum, I think I'm getting this feeling because it doesn't flow but I wouldn't put much faith in the read
wavemode - typically strikes me as scummy but it's a playstyle clash. Leaving as null for now
Nauci - Someone didn't like the interactions with Animetrix. Vaguely remember other things that seemed ok so very weak town and needs a re-read in case the other player's concerns are valid.
Xiao Long - Trying hard to come across as town, but the motivations feel off. Weak scum
Wossi - Looks a lot like scum who doesn't like the reason for being caught.

[davesaz]

Flavor Leaf - Activity level is messing me up here because I'd expect more activity and a gambit or two from this player's town meta, but I'm still inclined to say very weak town

Why?

I don't agree with all his positions but they don't look to me like they're intended to manipulate or avoid.

[davesaz]

A minuscule amount of free time, yay.

i don't really have reads atm which is strange
i think derpy is town but i'd still lynch him
not lynching wossi anymore

if we lynch derpy and he greens then maybe, MAYBE we can consider wossi

actually think one of gurgi/xl is scum, dunno who though

last scum(s) probably lurking

"I don't really have reads"
Gives reads.

Did anyone question this?

Agree we need some VC love.

[davesaz]

i'm on who i want to be lynched, but idrc who anymore and i'll switch whenever i feel like it

I don't remember who you're voting, or why. Care to enlighten us?

[davesaz]

Dave, Gurgi, Anime, Dunk: you're all okay with how much Wossi inaccurately portrays what people have said? Are you saying he hasn't been doing that, or that you don't scum read what he does?

Nah, I just wanted to have a VC before moving, for proper analysis no matter which way it goes.
I was ok with where my vote was, but this is better and time is relatively short.

VOTE: Wossi

[davesaz]

Where do you get that is an ultimatum?

[davesaz]

uh idk who to lynch
derpy's basically lock town now though

Why would Derpy be lock town?

[davesaz]

Work was a lot more of a thing than I expected.

[davesaz]

Who would you replace them with?

Nobody. I don’t like blocks and don’t really want to be in one

I tend to suspect the person trying to make it.

[davesaz]

Can we all compromise on a dunkerdoodles' lynch?

I would not object at this point.

I would move Dunkerdoodles up. While he hasn't done anything spectacular, I also don't see anything overtly scummy coming from his slot.

Flavor Leaf is in a neutral zone to me, so I really cant say wether I'd put him in either category.

I'd say not being overtly townie is more of an issue than you're making it here.

Flavor Leaf is certainly someone I'd expect more actively town things from. Shooting down other people's scum reads is easy, coming up with your own is harder.

And yeah I know I haven't been a paragon of virtue myself. Did I remember to post here that work was a beast for a couple of days?

Pedit: BTW there are pages of reading to do... hopefully this isn't a big helping of rehash lol

[davesaz]

It's not about the quotes you posted, it's about what Derpy, telling people to stop looking at you.

I missed that the first time I read it, this is a good point.

[davesaz]

I was looking for someone to make the point nauci made when I asked about flavor leaf. So I feel pretty good about nauci being town. Then derpy then chickadee. That's all my town reads. Xl and porkers are my scum reads.

Must have missed something, marking this to come back to.

[davesaz]

I was really hoping xl would have died in the night phase. Oh well.

“I didn’t intentionally didn’t NK Xiao because everyone knows how I kept calling for him to be shot. People now will think I’m town because I didn’t kill the person I obviously want dead.”

Did I translate wrong? Sorry for bad Englando

So since I've placed my vote we have an attempt to discredit me from xl and we also have a very sloppily done job of portraying me as scum. If I was scum how would Ik if there's a town vig or not? What if I actually called for your death because I knew people would continue to scum read you throughout the game until a night action cleared you or your dead? If I was scum here I wouldn't have tunneled Wossi day 1, that's lazy. Had you actually died I would have nowhere to go from my perspective as scum. So I'm definitely not setting up for the long game considering my day 1 play. So someone convince us why I'm scum? Where's my play pointing to a long and drawn out thought process of how I can navigate to a win for scum?

I'm undecided on this.

[davesaz]

Dave, Gurgi, Anime, Dunk: you're all okay with how much Wossi inaccurately portrays what people have said? Are you saying he hasn't been doing that, or that you don't scum read what he does?

Nah, I just wanted to have a VC before moving, for proper analysis no matter which way it goes.
I was ok with where my vote was, but this is better and

time is relatively short

.

VOTE: Wossi

Bolded the reason for my vote.
I'm pretty sure there are more people who haven't played with me than have in this game, but it's pretty well known that I'm fundamentally clueless with D1 reads, but universally on the side of making wagons and compromising on lynches to avoid NL. At that point in the game the best use of my vote was to use it on leading wagon.

[davesaz]

Ok here it is:

This group:
Chickadee
Porkens
Derpy
Gurgi
Anime
Nauci
Xiao long

Lynches this group:
Mumble davesaz
Tchill13
Flavor Leaf
Dunkerdoodles

And we take it from there.

VOTE: tchill

why is flavor in lynch? he was against wossi.

Is this the question you referred to in 1374

[davesaz]

Pretty sure I was 4th or 5th at the time I voted, as I would not have joined a wagon which wasn't top at that point in time. Evidently there was some off and back on later.
I use two techniques, a long-winded one which looks at flow and a simpler one which looks at on/off splits. Obviously looking at wagon flow will take time, so the simple one first.
I'm not expecting this to mean much yet. Think of it as thoughts in progress so I can remember what I was doing, if I have to pick up reading on mobile. Feel free to pick at it though.

Wossi (7): tchill13, Chickadee, davesaz, Porkens, Nauci, Dunkerdoodles, Derpy Hooves
Xiao Long (2): Lord Gurgi, Animetrix
Derpy Hooves (1): Wossi
Dunkerdoodles (1): wavemode
tchill13 (1): Xiao Long
wavemode (1): Flavor Leaf

From memory plus feels from catchup, I have the following which consists of way too many scum reads.
On the wagon we have Chick and Nauci weak town, Porkens weak scum, Dunkerdoodles and Derpy medium scum. tchill I don't remember my read.
Off the wagon: Gurgi don't remember what I thought, Animetrix weak scum, XL weak scum, Flavor Leaf isn't actively scum but I have a scum vibe from meta (in particular not doing any of the things I'd expect from the main account's town).

At least one scum read should be town from the "on wagon" and "off wagon" groups given there are too many scumreads in both. I think it's likely for at least one scum in each group.

[davesaz]

@Nauci

Dave’s vote looks bad. Replaces in. Does some catch-up posts and votes but doesn’t really have much reason for it.

[davesaz]

my top scumread townreads me. Welp my work here is done let me know what you all decide.

VOTE: unvote

I lost track, who was your top scumread at this point? And what did it mean to you that they were townreading you?

[davesaz]

i don't like the lack of input from everyone. Porkens reacted very odd during our altercation once i said i TR'd him.

What did you think was odd about it?

[davesaz]

He just posted his read list a while back

A while back from now, or from that point?
I'm catching up in flow...

[davesaz]

i don't like the lack of input from everyone. Porkens reacted very odd during our altercation once i said i TR'd him.

What did you think was odd about it?

someones reads are not a solid reason to town or scum read them. Specifically their reads on themselves (from porkens perspective) as a player.

Good, that's what I thought too but wanted to hear it from you. This helps a bit.

[davesaz]

Tchill, I've seen lots of people doubt a townread and make a post like Chick did, but it's possible you might be right.

[davesaz]

The thing that bothers me the most about Derpy is the whole pushing Wossi thing but trying to distance himself from the tunnel at the same time.
It felt manipulative to me -- hey guys, lynch here, but try to forget that I was the one making you do it because I can't keep myself from tunneling...

[davesaz]

The thing that bothers me the most about Derpy is the whole pushing Wossi thing but trying to distance himself from the tunnel at the same time.
It felt manipulative to me -- hey guys, lynch here, but try to forget that I was the one making you do it because I can't keep myself from tunneling...

I didn’t make a single person vote wossi. It’s impossible to make anyone do anything in this game.

I pushed for his lynch. As did others. I’d say 3 people equally tunneled on wossi. Me/chill/chick.

People want to blame me, that’s fine but don’t say I forced anyone to vote wossi. It’s bullshit

Fair enough, making was a bad choice of words. The point is more that you were trying to disavow it all day at the same time as pushing it.

[davesaz]

Fair enough, making was a bad choice of words. The point is more that you were trying to disavow it all day at the same time as pushing it.

No sorry. Doesn’t work like that. Everyone is responsible for their own vote. Holding them accountable is how you scum hunt properly

Getting town to vote for the people you want them to is exactly how scum works.

[davesaz]

I was wrong on Chick (but starting to come around), and right about Animetrix.
VOTE: Gurgi lurked out the scum lynch.

[davesaz]

"novice" vig? What does novice mean?

[davesaz]

Yes, I saw the earlier posts regarding Nauci interactions with Animetrix. At the time I thought the person who pointed that out could be scum throwing shade, but in light of flips it fits great.
VOTE: Nauci

[davesaz]

I wasn't comfortable with being shot and losing two town in one night, so I commuted.
We're kinda assuming that XL would be the kill target, which is of course a good assumption. Don't think we need to know who the presumed save came from.
Last scum must be either Dunk or Gurgy, but which? Though it should be easy given we have time to lynch them both.

[davesaz]

Because I didn't expect a lynch to take less than 24 hours, and was busy doing stuff around the house.

[davesaz]

The issue I'm having is a lot of stuff is fishy but not overly scummy, and I'm not the kind of player who is good at nailing people on fishy. Especially ones I don't know much about.
If someone makes a logically inconsistent claim I'm all over it, but that isn't happening here.

[davesaz]

Scum reads.

Last scum must be either Dunk or Gurgy, but which? Though it should be easy given we have time to lynch them both.

Town reads -- everyone else.
Hasn't changed much. Maybe you'd rather I start?

VOTE: Gurgi

[davesaz]

I suppose I could be wrong and there are two scum, and it's both?
I could be wrong and one of my town reads is scum. Wouldn't be at all unusual for that to happen.