Mini Normal 1983: Winter Wonderland [Endgame!]

[Katyusha]

he means start of D3 and has been loosely following the game

[Katyusha]

we're never lynching n_m / dino until D6 and there will be two town players alive

theres no need for fearmongering

[Katyusha]

he means start of D3 and has been loosely following the game

He's been in replacement queue since D1.

yes, he gave his last guess last tuesday

and being in the queue since D1 means he's loosely following along

he's not lying and even if he were he's not scum for that if he is scum

[Katyusha]

Yeah but ur not lynching Dino.

that isnt true, i think there's a lot of town equity in how n_m treated your fakeclaim

just because i'm listening to both sides when rem's slot has LITERALLY NOT POSTED FOR TWO DAYPHASES doesn't mean I think theyre more likely town

[Katyusha]

also you still have zero position to talk about my mylo play because i'm still salty you lynched kraska in 649

[Katyusha]

also you still have zero position to talk about my mylo play because i'm still salty you lynched kraska in 649

I have plenty

ok, why should I not be giving the Rem slot a chance?

We think Hop/Flub is SvT in some order
I think you're locktown since sheep is scum, so:
I think that since one of MD/{Fire, N_M} is scum, MD/N_M is SvT
We know sheep is scum

So like I have to be listening to MD as town here. What is your point?

[Katyusha]

Fire, can you make the assertion that MD has tried to policy lynch you without referencing an ongoing game?

If not, stop and let's just solve this game using this game's posts.

[Katyusha]

Thanks for bringing quality back into the game, MD.

Seconded.

[Katyusha]

Sheep > {Hop/Flubb} > {N_M/MD} is the order this gets resolved. If Mathdino is done catching up then I have one question I'd like to ask him before we end the day, and I'd like to wait until he's done reading beforehand

[Katyusha]

Fuck no Katy
This gets resolved with Dino today

Can we not bring in some personal grudge that I can't even understand because you're not linking your games and you have so many I'm not going to bother looking? Especially if it's an offsite turbo.

[Katyusha]

yeah no i agree it's a shitty line and that n_m is more likely just town here but he has a point about n_m's meta and I want to see him play out the full game so I can try to read him.

[Katyusha]

why the fuck would math push policy in MYLO thats essentially scumclaiming

[Katyusha]

I don’t even know which game he thinks I’m referring too

no one does and it's why i've been asking you to table this

pedit: ok! thank you!

[Katyusha]

yeah theres a few good discussion points there ^ but i think i want him fully caught up first so it doesnt wind up being redundant

pedit: thats what im thinking too

(double pedit fwiw too lazy to edit out the ^ so you know what i mean)

[Katyusha]

monkey what else is dino supposed to think that you were doing if you literally called them as not townie posts by tone before he even commented

pedit: that

[Katyusha]

We should probably no lynch at 4p though to maximise odds? Unless we end up with confirmed town by then anyway.

This is what I said at daystart.

[Katyusha]

There is no town motivation from Fire or Serg.

This is a sweeping statement that’s absolutely untrue!

When i’m back I’m going to be asking math and hop a lot of questions so hang tight

[Katyusha]

I'm ready to lynch sheep now. This discourse is not gonna get any more intelligent.

BUT WAIT

Math! Let's talk!

Two really important questions:

• Why does scum!n_m react to firebringer's claim the way he did? This isn't like me doubting he can be scum moreso this is a Thought I had and want to see how a scum!confirmed!basically perspective sees it
  
  
• Why did you give up on your scumread on me? If you're town, you should probably know that "Oh if you're scum then we just lose" isn't a good mindset, I believe I'm still mechanically possible scum, so I'd like to hear your trajectory as to why you haven't considered me at all

Hop, feel free to answer the first bullet.

Sheep, give me ideas for your hammer. It needs to be inspired.

We can start talking about astrophysics

please no im so done with astronomy

[Katyusha]

i've just been fucking around with the quotes lately none of my jokes feel original or funny

if you have a song of choice thats a thing too as long as it vaguely fits with the aesthetic

[Katyusha]

sorry my life has been such a drag and D2 just literally sucked away any care i had for this game but i still want to win

and also being sick xd

pedit: it's a legitimate concern because what-if-mathdino-is-town-it's-actually-possible-and-i-want-to-be-sure

[Katyusha]

like there are reasons for me to actually think n_m

might

be scum but town!him still kind of makes more sense

it's definitely hop and sheep but #3 remains elusive to me

[Katyusha]

i was looking through songs ive been listening to theyre all too nsfw for here

arent you like 12

anyway im going to do my schoolwork now and die. sleep is for the

weak

weekends

[Katyusha]

what are you actually 12



wtf dont you have to be 13 to use the internet or something

[Katyusha]

Katy I thought u were like 14 in our first game

I mean that’s fair I was super fucking awkward and stupid that game

I am, again, still very salty about that game’s outcome

Thanks Charloux <3

[Katyusha]

Also I thought Maria was like 12 as well lol

[Katyusha]

I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed

I'm ready to lynch sheep now. This discourse is not gonna get any more intelligent.

BUT WAIT

Math! Let's talk!

Two really important questions:

• Why does scum!n_m react to firebringer's claim the way he did? This isn't like me doubting he can be scum moreso this is a Thought I had and want to see how a scum!confirmed!basically perspective sees it
  
  
• Why did you give up on your scumread on me? If you're town, you should probably know that "Oh if you're scum then we just lose" isn't a good mindset, I believe I'm still mechanically possible scum, so I'd like to hear your trajectory as to why you haven't considered me at all

Hop, feel free to answer the first bullet.

Sheep, give me ideas for your hammer. It needs to be inspired.

We can start talking about astrophysics

please no im so done with astronomy

since i forgot to quote this to make sure it doesnt get lost uwu

[Katyusha]

i dont think those are the lyrics dino

[Katyusha]

Also just a note, it looks like you're already pretty set on Mathscum; obviously defending myself is a secondary consideration and a lower priority than spotlighting the scumteam, but I haven't actually seen why, or whether it's based on Rem's ISO, Rem's interactions with sheep, or has to do with my behaviour since replacing in.

So if paranoia of my slot is what's gonna prevent you from seeing the scumteam regardless of what I argue, we should probably address it. Or if we can't address it, I'd rather be lynched right now than in at least 5 real life days knowing that whomever left is probably going to default to "Oh it's just N_M being N_M" which is honestly pretty frustrating/irritating because I've specifically lost a game due to that argument.

tl;dr if you're gonna kill me anyway, kill me now, but otherwise talk about why you wanna kill me while i go work on d3

I'm like 55% you 45% n_m so it's hardly the right call to do that - there are actually a lot of points were I can see n_m as scum and looking back they definitely raised a few eyebrows, it's just that one interaction felt kind of genuine to me. same with rem's D1 to some extent (some parts i really don't like, some parts I do like). i feel like articulating the exact points doesn't help us just yet since i'm not focusing on convincing another townie and i'm more focused on reading you and i dont want knowledge of why i feel a specific way besides what i've said to impact how you play around me if that makes sense

the interaction i'm asking you to look at is basically what's making me question you!town.

it's not a lost battle for either side. unless hopkirk is town lol

[Katyusha]

but the way i envision this game i see nm/dino solved in a 4-way mylo with two hammertested townies in {me flubber monkey fire} discussing the arguments either way

unless it becomes a lot clearer on the way there i think it's better to get the easier lynches out of the way first. it's more time, less clutter, and maybe seeing which townies scum elect to remove first provides some sort of information

pedit: i guess it was him unvoting before i asked that made me feel it was ~genuine~ in real time

what i have to ask though is why doesn't n_m question the claim in mylo? you said it yourself, n_m is smarter than he lets on and I've been fully aware of this. surely from a town pov it would make sense to question that claim?

pedit: thinking. also great contribution n_m beyoncety.gif

[Katyusha]

I mean this is an okay argument as to Fire/N_M not scum together but this also implies that they would ever plan anything, which is a faulty assumption

I trolled you as a teammate and plotted out the whole game, you know I have the ability to anticipate reactions and plan a scum gambit accordingly, so does Fire

tfw literally making an argument that N_M/Fire could be scum together

Yup, we could be and you know it, so you're full of shit

im just taking this as a scumclaim

[Katyusha]

what reason do scum have to waffle

obviously here n_m!scum would be trying to look town in the first place by unvoting so i guess it's kind of a dumb question but i dont think saying "scum would stick to their guns" is an unreasonable assumption, theyre the ones who come into the game with a planned agenda in mind

Mathdino did scumclaim yes, several other times too

source?

pedit: no really like............. what would town!dino have done here n_m in your opinion

pedit: because literally no one would follow hopkirk onto fire, it's just a distraction and we shouldnt take the association to heart at all because he could be tying himself to you or tying himself to mathdino. it's just wifom

[Katyusha]

this is me stating i'm fairly convinced now mathdino is town

if monkey or fire or flubber need me to explain why i can because there were a few posts from the other days that made me less sure about this but still

pedit: theres more points i think to his argument than that n_m?? and he's just saying you're impulsive players which i dont think is an unreasonable personality call. i do personally think fire like double checks at the very least what UB rules are before going with the claim in the pt but that's hardly out of the realm of someone "impulsive"

pedit: the argument to lynch non-confscum makes sense and dino is not the first person i've heard try it. it's not unreasonable nm

[Katyusha]

Lynch scum, not me, not refuse to vote conf scum when we still have 8 players and what? 4 or 5 players unclaimed?

who does town!dino read as the scumteam here, especially if he doesnt suspect you (how would you know this anyway)

[Katyusha]

I want a lynch on sheep, not anyone else.

Kat, can you walk me through where you're placing my vote?

i dont know if i want a sheep lynch entirely

at this point i dont see it not being hopkirk/sheep, the only hesitation there is is dino/n_m

do you, at a very basic level, disagree with this in anyway?

oh shit we didnt finish the massclaim

im claiming ascetic townie

this is a town claim.

pedit: have not read dino's post

[Katyusha]

Scum can't plan shit. Look at the timestamps on that interaction; it was all within a span of minutes. Turbospeed.

I'm arguing that N_M knew Fire was town already and was setting him up to fall.

But then he realised Fire wouldn't go down so easily and 1v1ing Fire would have the strong potential to just confirm N_M as scum down the line.

None of it was planned because he didn't plan for Fire's fakeclaim.

right, but he sees the claim and knows he'll react one way to it. even if he doesnt have the night to think he still is informed and doesn't have to actually react naturally to the claim

"ok, i don't think this is believable, I think town!me would vote here"

vs

"i think this claim is somewhat believable even though i know it's fake so i'm going to feel it out and see what town does before taking any drastic action since that's what town!me would do"

instead he chooses to contradict his thought process. what's the benefit here (besides obviously looking town, which i concede is probably the intention but if that's the only possibility i can understand then i dont really know what to make of it)

i understand this might not make sense and honestly i dont even care about this point because n_m's last few posts have been terrible so

[Katyusha]

monkey am i being too easily swayed? where am i going wrong?

[Katyusha]

yeah if you have to argue fire is scum then there's just no point in saying he scumclaimed because he has to call you as scum as scum and town alike, there's no way for me to tell the difference objectively without reads etc

and fire i think your opinion here is biased, it could be right but I want to hear from monkey

pedit: not mafia you're missing the point lmfao

[Katyusha]

n_m if you're town he cant be, fire's obvfucking town and hop is obvfucking scum so it has to be since we already confirmed by votes hop/flubber is not a team iirc

anyway i need to think

[Katyusha]

n_m what games have you played with UCV before this game?

[Katyusha]

for now, i want the additional night so hopefully potential unclaimed prs can further this game for us.

actually at the very least

this is an argument for lynching sheep now and nm/dino tomorrow

Also N_M-scum objectively always loses a 1v1 with Firebringer-town.

i agree with this but he's not 1v1'ing just by voting a town!Firebringer. the rest of the town can doubt fire's claim and mislynch him too

pedit: why does town dino need to justify his play to you if you're confscum to each other

[Katyusha]

I don't really understand this.

we know fire is town

thus both you and n_m, regardless of alignments, will argue the team must be hopkirk/sheep/the other

thus you didn't scumclaim at any point

pedit: n_m he's literally not trying to do that

pedit: "fire is basically never getting lynched this game because there is almost no way he is scum"

does that help?

[Katyusha]

justify his play to you

he's engaging with me :/

[Katyusha]

sheep i know it's optimal for you but dont self hammer i want to memehammer you if we decide to lynch you and you know thats important as well

pedit: math he's at L-2 anyway

pedit: lol

[Katyusha]

been doing it longer != better i have soft spots and the position md is in, like you said, makes it hard to read him properly. n_m is doing a few things that seem off to me from a town perspective and thats mostly what im going off of, though there's a few other things in the early game that i kind of wanted to look into and i have to wait for tomorrow to start getting resolution there it seems

i always need someone to bounce off of anyway

[Katyusha]

they have a known dislike for each other, i dont think it's exactly scum indicative in this instance for dino

[Katyusha]

that's fine, you dont have to agree with me until we all commit to one decision. i'm still working it out.

pedit: mh. so it's just one-sided?

[Katyusha]

Rem has been an empty slot all game. It's hard to come up with a read one way or another - we're relying entirely on n_m here who, if scum, played a relatively townie game early on but it's still possible to sell it as scum.

D1 she pushed a pretty reasonable case on Intern as the "active lurker following town consensus" and even compared it to n_m's iso which she thought was transparently town. After intern's claim though she kind of died down and had weird reads. No update D2 or D3.

I guess you could argue that sheep's interaction calling it a "really genuine entrance" means something but i think that was more following consensus

have we looked into hop/rem interactions?

also wrt n_m he did have a ?????? read on hop iirc D1 that i vaguely remember wanting to take note of after flips since i was expecting a hop lynch to happen, you know, before MYLO

[Katyusha]

Does anyone in the game scumread Sheep/NM/Rem? It's obvious someone like you/me isn't going to be the nightkill here. There's plenty of targets mafia can easily pick that don't change the conversation.

lol?

havent read enough to do analysis but while ctrl-f'ing rem i found this lol

[Katyusha]

im tempted to give rem town points for townreading bu but she didnt do much to really impact with that read despite pushing it LITERALLY being gamechanging here

pedit: thats the impression im getting so far too

[Katyusha]

i still cant get over the fact that with a single cop investigation that doesnt suck and a vig on hop this game would have become a roflstomp

[Katyusha]

actually i think hop suddenly being REALLY fascinated by a intern lynch while rem is pushing it might give credence to the fact they're not aligned

[Katyusha]

Taking a potshot and just gonna say that N_M helped scum wincon more than Rem did *shrug*

It's pretty standard from what I see of scum-N_M tbh.

i too tend to assume that scum help their own wincon more than town helps scum's

[Katyusha]

what if we lynch hopkirk instead, hmm?

at this point that's the same as lynching sheep

[Katyusha]

why would it matter the game is effectively mountainous probably and scum can probably just safely shoot whatever remaining pr there is

[Katyusha]

Idk man you're still buying into this "correct reads = town and bad reads = scum".

huh

[Katyusha]

You and Rem were similarly not playing, N_M.

this is flat out not true

pedit: yeah thats what im starting to see looking at the iso for myself

[Katyusha]

this game is hard!

sure is buddy!

really though do you think im stupid when i say i dont think hopkirk obsesses over an intern lynch and hurls intern into his scumteam with me in it when scum!rem is the frontrunner of that read?

[Katyusha]

sheepsaysmeep (2): Not_Mafia, Firebringer
Not_Mafia (3): Mathdino, Hopkirk, sheepsaysmeep

the annoying this is if i vote right now it means scum are YOLObussing and if i get n_m i'm helping them do it and like i dont have the willpower to deal with the blowback of being wrong here

[Katyusha]

monkeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Katyusha]

rem was never scummy for lurking, i really only think it's worth pressuring lurkers like D1 when you're trying to get a baseline on everyone (*cough* UCV) and rem had D1 content at least. D2 she was v/la and seph self-hammered for emotionally understandable reasons but it still really hurt the gamestate to do so while i was waiting on rem. D3 she flaked and it was kind of inevitable

i feel dumb for not reading sheep's obvious scumhammer there but still

[Katyusha]

Notice also that Not_Mafia's entire argument is based on me being scum post-replace-in. He doesn't have an argument for this slot being scum prior to that.

Which makes it really rich that he tried to mislynch the slot before a replace-in came and ruined the party, despite going on about how y'all should lynch confscum first.

yeah this is what i was talking about earlier

[Katyusha]

monkey it's D3 surely we have more than tone to go off of

[Katyusha]

I'm really gonna look like a jackass if N_M was town the whole time lol

But if that were the case, it just rewards really good play on the part of Fire and Flubber and sheep (is Flubber conftown yet?) so I guess I'm cool with that. Lose sooner rather than later.

im willing to lose the game if it's not sheep/hop/{you/nm} so i dont really care at this point

if this were a normal lylo we would have already lynched sheep and hop by now

[Katyusha]

really though do you think im stupid when i say i dont think hopkirk obsesses over an intern lynch and hurls intern into his scumteam with me in it when scum!rem is the frontrunner of that read?

monkey can you answer this

[Katyusha]

ok but if it is n_m firebringer isn't ever dying which means that we have to rely on scum bussing or convince him now

[Katyusha]

pbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbt

i can make the hammer post but i'll feel douchey if the rest of the town isnt ready to end the game

[Katyusha]

monkey what's your call

[Katyusha]

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo i wanna hammer

[Katyusha]

i dont know

i feel pretty confident that hop doesnt go running around wanting to lynch intern just because a partner replaced in saying it's the new hip thing to do

like thats not something that happens, right? i'm not a fucking idiot?

[Katyusha]

i mean i gUeSs it feels that way

pedit: is that supposed to be a point in scum!n_m's favor

pedit: NOT HAMMERING IM NOT DONE YET AAAAAAAAA

[Katyusha]

sadfadsfadsfasd

[Katyusha]

ok hammer post is in another tab






are we sure we're ending this

[Katyusha]

wow.

we missed our shot for a pagetop.

[Katyusha]

god

[Katyusha]

3475 is the pagetop though?

[Katyusha]

this is so cringey and honestly anxiety triggering mathdino im blaming this on you uwu

pedit: ruh oh

[Katyusha]

what else would you expect from me fire

pedit:

god

[Katyusha]

monkey are we hammering regardless of fire or did we waste a page with spam

[Katyusha]

i can't hammer anyway monkey

no, i dont. why should i feel that way?

[Katyusha]

monkey are we hammering regardless of fire or did we waste a page with spam

Ohhh no u don’t u little....

well we're going to talk it out now i guess

fire

can you look at rem's replacement and look at how hopkirk runs with the intern scumreads? do you think that the way he handles it makes sense if he knows it's a mislynch being pushed by his partner trying to lead town?

[Katyusha]

he's like smelling blood right now and using negs to push us into doing this.

yeah but like if he's town he knows the game ends with us winning

are you sure that bloodlust only comes from scum here?

[Katyusha]

only if you promise to not tunnel?

i really feel convinced by like early game content now and we should explore that more

pedit: ok so are we spamming for the pagetop if we're not going with it

[Katyusha]

pagetop is 3500 btw

[Katyusha]

whew

[Katyusha]

yall

[Katyusha]

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[/size][/align]

[Katyusha]

HOLY fuck ok i fucking hate playing scum lemme tell yall

monkey im so sorry

[Katyusha]

OwO

[Katyusha]

just kidding im town




please

[Katyusha]

math when you say it like that you sound like you know he's town

it's never fire and it's never flubber

pedit: fuck

[Katyusha]

guys

[Katyusha]

math are you actually town

[Katyusha]

math you can tell the truth if you're scum town doesnt have any more prs

[Katyusha]

Sheep/fire doesn't make sense as scum/scum

fire's reactions are shitting town

hop has been obvscum all game

pedit: hop/flubb is confirmed iirc to not be a pair and hop is openwolfing today

[Katyusha]

like just read my case D1

[Katyusha]

also you did troll in the game with schadd so >_>

pedit: take me with you lol

[Katyusha]

ok seriously md can you ping nsg on discord or something i dont want to wait pls

[Katyusha]

also you did troll in the game with schadd so >_>

pedit: take me with you lol

ill pm you lol. are you actually scum?

no i literally could not have pulled this off jsadlkf;jadskfl;jadskf;;;;;

i dont think sheep would have ever scumclaimed with me as scum

[Katyusha]

like if i hammered correctly it's always hop+sheep here and i refuse to see otherwise because then i literally played the worst game of mafia in my career

i care about my ego

[Katyusha]

please it's just an instant win either way

:////fd/as/fdsdafkadsfk'

pedit: i hate lylo so fucking much it's like we keep asking and he'll always say no but wHaT iF

[Katyusha]

all that matters is that im town

[Katyusha]

Tнё моšт їмpоятaит тнїиg шнёи їll їš то иёvєя lоšё нёaят.


- - - - - Бооd Оl' Vladdџ Ls

maybe i should just take this into account

o7

[Katyusha]

what edition are we playing

i just joined a 5e group and im warming up to it (i used to hate 5e)

plus i finally get to be the skill monkey since for some reason im always pushed into being the divine caster

I’m scum with not mafia and sheep.

scumclaim

idkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk im pretty sure fire is town

[Katyusha]

like you guys do realise we still lose if i've failed to convince firebringer i'm town here

sheep doesn't bus tomorrow

fire

if the game goes on

it's sheep/hop

pls

[Katyusha]

ok




but like i reread the game and ignored dino's posts and im pretty sure rem isnt partners with hopkirk

[Katyusha]

not to say i ignored dino's posts per say, but like

i didnt take them into account when deciding today. i kept them in mind it's just i want my own reads to persuade myself

[Katyusha]

so did no one here read my cases :'(

I DID

it's just it wasnt what convinced me nor was it ever

[Katyusha]

like despite being a well known spammer i dont skim posts and i genuinely care about the gamestate

i really feel like this was the right call and i'm ready to eat crow if i must

[Katyusha]

when would we be meeting? i'm kind of busy most days (i think friday night EST would work best for me) now though since im in other groups/have school

[Katyusha]

seph wagon was fine though conceptually, i knew i was townreading scum on the wagon and seph was a pretty likely suspect

i just

kind of emotionally broke down with the back and forth and didnt act correctly. i really need thicker skin because i cant count the amount of times i've just slinked out of an otherwise entirely solvable gamestate because of some toxicity and made my slot significantly more worthless

pedit: valid

i'll ping u or something

[Katyusha]

i rolled a 13 did we lose mini normal 1983

[Katyusha]

uhm so wait dino we did lose right

[Katyusha]

guys i havent done my homework this entire time

pedit: I DID THINK HES SCUM IM JUST REALLY NERVOUS MAN dsflak;djfkaldsjf;kla;;;

[Katyusha]

usually in lylos i make sure that i can have someone reliably tell me if i made the right call just to avoid this

see my game with nsg

[Katyusha]

is he online

[Katyusha]

i cant stop thinking about if i was wrong though fire

in all my serious games (i have to remove ginngie's game from my wiki lol) i have a perfect win rate so maybe i want to keep that up UwU

Fire can still be scum here

.......... over hop............................

[Katyusha]

please dont deviate it's just hop/sheep

Team is me, human, Katy

We trolled Dino good

that team would have powerfucked this town LMFOA

[Katyusha]

chakras: blitzed
energies: equalized

my third eye spontaneously opens and sees all

< ( IT'S SHEEP/HOP ) >

^ third eye

pedit: omfg no never please do that - though how do you know you're going to be alive for that

[Katyusha]

also vvv this is relevant please dont forget vvv

I was under the assumption that UCV rvs'd but then said we should try to get out of rvs as soon as possible which seems like a normal progression to me

though i guess that vote could have been serious - if it is UCV i'd actually like to hear what you think the scum motivation for that vote is

Why do we need solid scum motivation at this point? You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie.
The issue is inconsistency.
Plus we get out of RVS like he wanted.

What first made me consider scum!Hop this game was this post - specifically the second sentence.

Why is Hop shading me here? It was a weird line considering I was voting on the UCV wagon which meant that I was considering him as possible scum - obviously I'm not going to be pushing back against my own push, I would unvote if that were the case.

Since Hop seems like he's responding to my first sentence (UCV's progression seems normal) but is using context from the second sentence, the response feels like a non-sequitur and is ignoring the point being made. Obviously at this point I thought he could just be town misunderstanding me, but the consistency in how he continued to not see what I was talking about seems to me that there was some intention of pushing this point to an agenda, and backtracking yourself to be accountable to your mistakes would have hurt the push's potency. Obviously once it was clear that I wasn't getting lynched or scumread this game he backed off.

If he were just trying to sort me, I think he'd approach it in a more inquisitive manner. "You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie" is very different from "Why are you pushing against your own vote?". The latter, again, doesn't really make sense but it's at least clear in that case he's misunderstanding my intentions and can be cleared up easily.

---

I definitely agree with HEM that the Flubber read seemed out of place and white-knighty. I would think a town!Hopkirk would approach the read considering why Flubber was being pushed in the first place:

scumreads n_m for inaccurate meta and his UCV read is weird in light of the game’s context

Maybe Hop doesn't have the meta or context to disagree with the n_m read, which is fine, but if he felt he was town then Hop would have an explanation as to why Flubber wasn't considering sheep's meta or had a reason to disagree with sheep. "The wagon is bad" is also a perfectly fine reason to disagree with the Flubber scumreads, but as I pointed out the wagon composition at that time consisted of mostly townreads of Hop's so it's hard to give credibility to that reasoning.

The meta Hop gave is also kind of lazy. There's more to Flubber's entrance than voting onto a large wagon, and plenty of people do the same when they enter games. It's a very NAI thing to attribute to meta as well. I don't know how strong Hop's meta skills are but it still doesn't seem like a read I would use to defend against a Flubber wagon when there's more to the push to dismantle.

With a confident enough read to just write "Flubber is town.", town!Hop would probably try to explain his perspective better rather than just state it as he caught up.

---

I thought you'd be more interested in HEM town.

Something about this line also felt kind of manufactured to me. I don't really think it'd be surprising if he read HEM one way or the other and from Hop's posting it's clear he didn't intend to push on him as well, so townreading HEM there seems reasonable. Yet, why would Hop thinks this deserves special attention? I would think it's more likely that scum!Hop put HEM in his townreads so that he wouldn't look overly defensive and wanted to make that clear, and that I would assume that if town!Hop felt the interaction was TvT&T he wouldn't be surprised about me finding the read normal because HEM would seem clearly town to both of us.

I also question the read's genuineness considering Hop was happy to discard it once pressure came towards HEM's way. I think that, besides basically everything Bu has pushed, this is definitely one of the more opportunistic changes in reads.

I think this and the Flubber townread are both weak points in his reads that show that they're disingenuous. Hop's townread of Flubber should have further addressed the points being given better, and his HEM read seems to reflect more on the gamestate than what someone in Hopkirk's shoes would actually feel.

---

I think without going in depth about the argument that was had earlier, these are the most important points that lead me to feeling confident about scum!Hop.

Essentially, we can see that he's reading the thread from a different perspective that isn't inquisitive, provided a poor defense for Flubber when he was first being wagonned, and has reads that seem unnatural.

Kat, my current understanding of your hopkirk scumread is a whiteknight of me and his egregious misunderstandings. I think both points are kinda blah.

If explaining why they're scum motivated better doesn't help clear that up or make the points better, then could you give your reasoning for listing him as your 3rd scumread?

After a short break I'm going to break down why HEM is town.

[Katyusha]

yeah but it's spot on lol

he never bothered sorting me, he just threw shade and went with it and had cheeky read changes

none of that has really changed past D1. this game has really felt like an extended D1 tbh

[Katyusha]

I feel like it should end if it’s hop/sheep/n_m but I guess lynching sheep in 3way is like really important

[Katyusha]

Hopkirk is my number one town read at the moment.

[Katyusha]

tfw bad reads are a towntell

it was more the “fuck you guys I’m better than all of you I’m townreading scum and scumreading town” thing lmao

I mean sure he like fos’d n_m and had sheep as a top scumread after monkey and me but look who we went after in mylo

[Katyusha]

I don’t think town played that badly despite this game being a shitshow

D1 was actually very productive

pedit: r u saying that Dino is scum

[Katyusha]

Ok uwu

[Katyusha]

it wasn’t really on my radar since from their POV that slot was likely scum anyway

[Katyusha]

Oof

[Katyusha]

Actually I townread sergtacos anyway lol

[Katyusha]

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[Katyusha]

^ hop update your wiki page to that

[Katyusha]

again i will reiterate D1 was legitimately pro-town and a good D1 and not just spam. sheep scumhammering was dumb but idk if UCV would have been saved. more could have been done though

D2 was hot garbage sure and D3 was apathy MYLO

but we're still winning!!

[Katyusha]

Ok! I’m just garbage then :/

I would have never believed that claim either

[Katyusha]

Sorry hop

[Katyusha]

zzzzz

The best call probably would have been to stick with lynching claimed scum

That’s the last time I don’t do that in mylo

[Katyusha]

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and you were in fact enlightened

pedit: well that’s my fault :/

[Katyusha]

Yeah no that’s entirely on me for having shit reads

[Katyusha]

No need to be, that’s what you gotta do

Your fakeclaim had a lot of town equity and sheep’s reaction felt SvT to me

[Katyusha]

There’s like the very slight chance n_m’s watcher gets a guilty lol

That assumes sheep is lynched though

[Katyusha]

I mean remember that scum hammered the UCV lynch in, I think it was a perfectly fine way to force content out of UCV that needed to be evaluated. How can you sort a gamestate if you don’t have content from every slot? Serg only got a free pass from me because of the nature of D2/the D1 hammer. He probably would have been the next wagon if he kept being useless even though an air headed part of me thought he was townier than contentless!UCV.

After all, if lurker wagons are a bad thing D1, when else are you supposed to get info out of them?

I do agree though it was my fault for not pushing a serg vig, that probably would have been a better call (I was thinking of pushing UCV as a vig but that’d defeat the purpose of wagonning)

[Katyusha]

Also I thought this was a strong scumgame from sheep specifically

Fire also played well - Flubber picking the moz kill also basically locked a scumwin in since that’s what convinced me to townread flubb and tunnel hop harder

[Katyusha]

I still don’t understand why you supported the wagon then, which bad emotional understanding aside is why I thought you were scum despite my cold meta read of you

Like if someone is 100% town but a liability I would still stand for them and encourage them to produce content

[Katyusha]

Idk like if I thought creature was a shit player (I don’t) i’d still never lynch him - deliberately policy lynching a townread just seems anti-wincon to me

\_O_/

pedit: yeah I wasn’t going to do that, I generally only cold meta for difficult reads (like Bu) or if people besides the person says it exists. Doing it cold is too unreliable for me because you miss the finer details of someone’s personality if you aren’t in the game yourself

[Katyusha]

No it’s definitely a good thing to understand where people are coming from and that’s what made the environment in D2 feel like pulling teeth for me to sort in

Being the victim there sucks man

pedit: I mean I think it was scumhunting, he wanted to put you in a position where you were close to death but it was just a horrendously shitty way to go about it.

Like his D1 play was fine and I still hold our D1 was not at all poorly played even if we didn’t get the best possible lynch (like a hopkirk lynch would have been WAY more useful even if it were wrong, a flubber lynch could have netted us scum, serg posting more and getting scumread could have helped, etc.). It’s just the aftermath that lost all of us the game and we all played a part in it

[Katyusha]

One thing I’m glad this ends is the n_m meta tell where if he tries he’s scum

It smelled like bs but math gave a compelling argument as to why my counterexample didn’t work

[Katyusha]

MVP sheep

Sigh. He was obvscum to me =(

I mean


I think if I didn’t meta him i’d have been more critical of his UCV hammer but this was a strong scumgame relative to his others imo

[Katyusha]

i still dont think a spammy D1 was responsible for this loss