Mini Normal 1988 (Endgame)

[StefanB]

Hello,
just reading the first pages.
Can someone give me pointers for the waggons if we haven't got a lot of time.
Reeds will take some time.

[StefanB]

Hello Mozamis,

I remember, was a newbiegame I think, Nero and Havingfitz are also players I remember.
No not scum, currently on page 6, have 1 and a halfscumreads but just learned that the one I am more sure teends to get lynched on day 1 or 2, so take this with a grean of salt. BuJaber was the halfscumread.

Am I scum? Mozamis the answer is as always no, has been right in most of my games. (And is right in this one)

[StefanB]

Okay have read trough not really a feeling for the game, but I have read it.

A few bizare things on day 2:

Nero: Why do you focus on on/off the waggon? It seems to me that the question who is scumy is more important than let's lynch from group a or group b on a theory that is more of a coinflip.
Nero is giving me weird wipes. I don't like his play this game, but it doesn't look like scumplay. Perhaps he can fake it, but at the moment I lean towards town that I don't like the play of.

I thought I had somethink a moment, when I saw a push on my precessor because of "tactical" replacement, after the attack has going down, (okay Mulch was kind of trying to start it again) but than I realised that it came from Mulch a new replacement who wanted to push the Prismwaggon.

On the current waggons:

I don't see the mozamiswaggon at all and don't like the Archwingwaggon based on who is on it.

[StefanB]

By the way:
VOTE: Sephiroth

there is nearly zero original content in that ISO and there are 42 posts. I checked it, because I knew that Sephiroth was in the game but don't remember much that he posted. He voted TIAM, leeoon, thegoldenparadox, TIAM today moz, nearly always following a safe waggon, seemingly active in the game but not doing much.

Preedit: BuJaber in a extrapost.

[StefanB]

BuJaber:

Stefan defending the scum being bussed, and therefore indirectly bussing the scum on his wagon who are much more likely to be lynched now. (Leoon/Roy are popular wagons arch not so much).

I knew since English isn't my first language, so that is a bit mean from me, but I don't understand this post.

What scum am I defending? From your readinglist, Archangel. How is pointing out that the persons on the voting list:
You, Leeoon and Roy
not making me liking the waggon is defending Archangel?

And the Archangelwaggon has 3 votes on it.
Mozamis and Roy have 2
and Leeoon and now Sephiroth have one.

How is the biggest waggon not popular?

[StefanB]

Small correction:
I missed that BuJaber switched his vote from Archangel to Roy, so the Roywaggon has 3 votes now and the Archangelwagoon has 2 votes.
Was between the last votecount and me joining the game.

[StefanB]

Archwing:

Who said they didn't like the moz wagon? why?
i've played 1 or 2 games with moz and watched/read a few others... he's his usual spammy hyperposting self, but gut vibes do not scream town!moz here.

That would be me. Don't see Mozscum in this game. It is difficult to argue with gut though.

Nero:
Okay, that makes more sense. Well I did remember it wrong. You wanting to lynch in the group that was townreading the mislynch.(Post 408), then Moz come of with their is probably only 1 scum on the waggon and than you questioned Moz.

Changing reads:
Moz was a townread, didn't chance that much. Yeah that was strange and imho not logical, but doesn't come of at making her more scum.

You read:
Well, your read was makes more sense as town, but probably good enough to fake stuff that makes no sense as scum. (Would perhaps be to complicated, but I have seen scum beeing that clever)
That was pretty independent from what the hell is happening with the one/off waggon.
I said that I disliked your play that game, but I though it was clear that I lean towards town towards you.
(And why should that chance?)

[StefanB]

Last paragraph is about my read on Nero to be clear.

[StefanB]

Archwing, Moz: Don't let that get in a personal battle, okay.

Moz: Your reaction is strange. While

spammy hyperposting self

is not a compliment, your reaction is over the top.
The question if you catch scum normally is irelevant for the question if you are scum, you haven't got scum lynched in this game yet.
The delayed OMGUS. Is that really a thing? I have not seen it.
What is your read on Archwing? Haven't really found anythink in your ISO, that was conclusive. I searched for Arch and did read from day 2 forward.

[StefanB]

Okay, I have a tendency to want to lynch a certain kind of player. Unfortunatly the tend to flip town. BuJaber reminds me of those lynches in the past, so please someone stop me if I am going in this direction.

BuJaber: To be crystal clear. I don't trust you. I don't trust Leeoon or Roy. That is the whole Archwingwaggon.
Now for you, the fact that in your perspective the wagon is.
Scumread 3: You, Scumread 1, Scumread 2 (Numbers from the order in BuJabers list)
That didn't give you a moment to think about it? If someone hasn't got a townread on you (for example me), that waggon looks bad.
Hell, from your perspective that should look bad.
You haven't convinced anyone you don't read as scum, that Archwing deserves rope.
Actually after reading your ISO: Why exactly do you think Archwing is scum?

[StefanB]

Hello Christopher.

[StefanB]

@Mod:
Can we get a votecount? When a new player joins it is easier when the VC is new.

[StefanB]

@Mod:
Lalendra voted Roy in Post 686

Fixed.

[StefanB]

BuJaber:
That was much easier to read than your post yesterday.
One question you haven't addresed is: Why do you believe Archwing is scum? If this is so obvious that you build a whole case on someone beeing scum, because he is not voting there it should be easy.

Mulch:
I echo Neros 718: If nero vs Moz is townvsscum, who is scum and what makes you think scum vs town vs tvt?

Moz is making my head hurt right now. Yes townread before, but that reacttion because called spammy, really? And I don't like the delayed OMGUS that she uses to disregard a scum read on her.

[StefanB]

b/w me, golden, TIAM, moz.

low content.

sitting back and letting tvt (tbh a lot of this looks likes tvt).

who is pulling the strings?

Christopher: What does the list at the beginning mean?

What do you mean by low content?
Is this all about Sephiroth? (I erased the vote in the quote)

Interesting turn of events, today. No idea what to make of it.

[StefanB]

Roy: Okay, I answer the points of you that are about my slot.
Prisms 664 is somethink that I can't answer for.

Sephiroth: I feel that his post have just consting along.
Mostly sheeping influencel players, playing it very safe.
The post haven't got much substance.
Read the ISO. Everyone look at it again.
He looks like controbutting while doing pretty much nothing.

So you see I have no problem with wagoning him now.

@Mod: Can we get a Prod or a replacement for Sephiroth or is there a VLA I don't know about?

Mulch: Can I say that you are driving me nuts right now. (+ the problems understanding post by other players, make me want to scream)

[StefanB]

First busness:

Mulch has put himself at L-1.
So no acidential hammer please. (I will not believe that it is an accident)

Mulch you are at L-1.
Please claim.
If you need an intent to hammer:

Intent to hammer

[StefanB]

Now the more analytical stuff:

Mulch: Your playstile makes you hard to read. I thought that was a deliberate choice of yours.
Than the fight with Nero.
And then you send yourself at L-1.
How does that help? It is either an attemp to manipulate the players or you have very little impulsecontrol, not good in gooing furter in the game.
If you are town calm down and try to help even if you are lynched.

BuJaber:

I stated that I didn't want to vote the Archwingwaggon because I don't like any of the players on it. Could it be that you confuse me and Nero?
I wanted to ask you somethink: Why did you selfvote on day 1? This and a few posts of yours give red flags. Flaggs that made me think why is he playing so much different, than he plays in other games on the side that I checked a bit.

I found it funny that both Sephiroth and Mulch stated that they are not scum. Speciall notice to Sephiroth who is only "probably not scum"

P-Edit: Say Mulchs claim, doesn't chance anythink in this post.

[StefanB]

Actually I am still willing to hammer Mulch.
Thought about it a bit. I give a few hours for players to react but I will hammer in a few hours.
Sorry 1-shot Rolecop is a powerrole but not one that makes me hesitate.

[StefanB]

Okay, you are right, I can't hammer anymore, upps.
Why would I hammer an Powerrole, who is un-cc? Well we have a Powerrole who is not very powerful. CC for townrolecop are rare. (I have seen this as a townrole but it is from my knowledge not megacommon) I have seen 2 towntrackers in one game. (Was a large themegame so perhaps bad comperison for a mini normal)
So yeah I would kill a 1-shot no very usful powerrole from a player who gives me bad vibes (lynched ones a claimed doctor, too I think a two-shot one flipped scum)

[StefanB]

Mulch's roleclaim is fake btw.

Are you sure? Or is that only your opinion?

[StefanB]

And more he claimed and if we belive Nero(which I after much thinking do, even after their fight) he fakeclaimed.
There is nothing in the slot from Paradox or Mulch that looks town.

VOTE: Mulch

L-1 again.

[StefanB]

Well

I’m town

Then do something protown.

[StefanB]

Fitz: Last votecount Mulch was at L-2, than he selfvoted(L-1),unvotes(L-2), I vote him(L-1)
Waggon was at last VC: Mulch(4) Nero Cain, BuJaber, havingfitz, mozamis,

[StefanB]

Archwing: Why is the wagon bad?
I mean the whole "I am voting scum", votes someone else, is comedy gold.
Why do you think Mulch is town? Or is this just a Mozamistunnel?

[StefanB]

We have one day and 6 hours so yes if you want an other lynch than the one on L-1, argue like hell and organise.

If you want to know anythink before a potential hammer, ask now.

[StefanB]

Archwing: Anyone else you are scumreading, besides Moz?

Mulch: Getting stuff out? Helping even if you are lynched? More than saying you are town?

[StefanB]

Christopher:
I am not going to hammer, I am voting him right now. Someone else has to hammer.
Basicly I don't believe that he is saying the truth.
Not beeing CC means not so much in a closed setup. There is a big chance that there isn't a townrolecop.
Yes the fact that not much better than a VT even if I am wrong, plays a role. We also need a lynch, at the moment of my vote it looked like pretty much Mulch was the only option.
Would a no-lynch be a better option?

[StefanB]

I never said we are no-lynching.
The Moment of my vote, there was the Mulchwagon and nothing else that had more than 2 votes.
The mozwaggon is a recent devolepment.

[StefanB]

Mulch: Were did I ever say that I am not scumreading you?
I tryed to explain to Christopher why lynching you is not antitown, even in the worst case scenario that you are town.
I have been polite to you today, really talking to you like you were a newbie. I don't see anythink from you execpt childisness, votehopping (that looks very oportunistic), and play that I would call newbish/VI-stile if coming from town. (And I am probably insulting the newbieplayers with this remark sorry)
I am not scum neither with Archwing nor Moz as you or BuJaber guessed.

[StefanB]

Mulch: Were did I ever say that I am not scumreading you?
I tryed to explain to Christopher why lynching you is not antitown, even in the worst case scenario that you are town.
I have been polite to you today, really talking to you like you were a newbie. I don't see anythink from you execpt childisness, votehopping (that looks very oportunistic), and play that I would call newbish/VI-stile if coming from town. (And I am probably insulting the newbieplayers with this remark sorry)
I am not scum neither with Archwing nor Moz as you or BuJaber guessed.

You have the audacity to call me bad when you are tunneling a town that’s voting a scum?

I have the audacity to call you one of the worst players I have ever seen on the site or b) scum. For my sanity I have decided on b. Which was the scumvote BuJaber or Moz, you have stated both as scum. I call you so bad that I can't believe you are town.
Postgame I hope I am more calm.
Lynch that thing with fire.

[StefanB]

I am not currently at L-1.
Note how Mulch got from scum to bad player. Interesting for everyone who still sees him as town.

Sorry for loosing my temper a bit.

[StefanB]

Archwing:
Sorry I am out. My vote is probably not chanching from Mulch after that. If town, he and I will never be in a game together.

[StefanB]

For today, which is for me only a few hours left, try someone else to get your vote. (There was more but pre-edit)

You are saying that is town-Mulch. Others say it is not. I probably haven't got time for rereading Mulch other games before the deadline. We are both tunelling on a certain player now. I know you are tunelling, I know I am not completly logical right now.
I normally try to keep an open mind, but at the moment I am afraid, no talk between you and me is gooing to chance my vote.

(I will concide that I have been away for a long time)

[StefanB]

The situation is interesting. Nero makes an interesting point.
So you want someone to go about Moz:

So I will quote what she sad about Mulch, who she had played with before.

Mulch is one of those rare scum players that is capable of posting A LOT. So he's difficult to read.
However, tentative read is town - he seems kinda serious and thoughtful, and he is more spammy as scum. But like i say, he is tricky so i wouldnt bet much on that read lol

This probably is MUlchy's scum game.
He is much more vote changey and OMGUSY when scum (unlike most people.)

lol has he self voted? this i sscum!Mulch, he loves to be "all over the shop" as scum. Town Mulch is much more sensible. The key to reading Mulch i think is NOT to WIFOM him, to play Captain Obvious -if he does stuff that look scummy, he's probably scum lol

To be frank, I've seen Mulch town, and he's much better than this.
He's come in with a read on Prism, which was based on not a lot, then a read on Seph for no reason, then he pre-emptively voted me as he saaw which way i was going. Guy's a decent player - does any of that stuff seem like decent town hunting

Is this a fair and realistic discription of Mulchs past games?

[StefanB]

Incoming mafiahammer.

[StefanB]

Than we would have a 5-5 tie with Christopher as the only one not voting on of the waggons.

[StefanB]

Respect to Archwing who got his waggon.

[StefanB]

moz: are you missing that there is an intent to hammer and Nero is not part of your waggon or potential lynch? You are at L-1

[StefanB]

mozamis(4) Archwing, Sephiroth, Mulch, Lalendra, Roy

[StefanB]

of course 5 copied from the last VC and added Roy

[StefanB]

Waiting for the mod.

[StefanB]

Or does Moz want to claim now? Anyone wants to say somethink in twilight? (Please no roleclaim other than Moz)

[StefanB]

Reads now, doen't help much, will chance depending on the flip, but Scum probably knows were many players stand.

[StefanB]

VOTE: Mulch
for me the whole affair yesterday looked like scum were ignoring the Mulchwaggon and voting the Mozwaggon.
1. Potentiel reason is that Mulch is scum.
I have a second but this one is a bit complicated, I would have to check if its posible in a mininormal, but it also points to Mulch=scum, so I don't bother.

[StefanB]

Does that really help?
It gives the scum info who the powerroles are.
How does it help town?

[StefanB]

If I count Christopher also, who wanted to hammer Moz, also yeah the bolded + Christopher are my lunchpool.

Roys claim is believable. He claims a rare role, has crumped it, trys to play it protown.
So strike Roy from the lynchpool.

I can see BuJaber as scum, but I don't think he is that likly.
Btw: I am not realy against a Claim Vanilla/not vanilla. We can do it.

Not the unnecesary part of the post:

Christopher: This was a drastic example why lynching an uncounterclaimed scummy weak powerrole is not the most antitownthink you could do.

I feel sorry for the mod. An Archwing/Moz Deadtopic could be ugly.

Pre-Edit: Nero has allready in post 936 stated somethink that I see as he is okay with it.

[StefanB]

Mulch: We are talking about you getting a Vanillaresult, right?
If this is right, I want the following order.
Mulch first
then we claim Vanilla or not
than Roy

Okay?

[StefanB]

Roy:
Yes, but this was about his result (Which I assume is X is vanilla), I want to him to claim that before the massclaim(VT or not), if we are doing it, and I am right.

[StefanB]

Mulch:
Shortly before we have a massclaim VT or not VT outing is not a problem.

[StefanB]

Why wait on Mulchresult?
I trust you more than Mulch. (Anyone who doesn't exept Mulch?)
You want to catch scum who are lying. Since I suspect Mulch of lying I want him first.

[StefanB]

Fitz: Just to clear up confusion.
Mulch claimed 1-shot rolecop yesterday. This is supposly the same claim.

Nero made Mulch vote Moz yesterday is not something I see from the game yesterday.

[StefanB]

Fitz: And this is somethink that imho didn't happen yesterday.

Hero are the post from Nero re Moz after Mulch stated a townread and prior to the vote:

In post 729, Mulch wrote:

I’m townread Nero and moz

But their interaction suggest tvs

this seems very fence sitty and just odd.

I'm worried that this some kind of safety net post for when/if Moz flips scum.

(Mulch post bolded because needed for context but not from Nero)

Doesn't jive with Nero made him.

[StefanB]

She we go next, all or only Roy?

[StefanB]

Of course the question for BuJaber, if Mulch result could be true.

[StefanB]

A Role Cop is an investigative role that receives the role name of its target. In Normal games, this is "Cop", "Doctor", "Roleblocker, and so forth. There is no indication of the target's alignment; if a Mafia Goon is investigated, they return "Vanilla", although a Godfather will return "Godfather".

Normal Guidelines

A Role Cop that returns only their target's full role name and not alignment is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. A Mafia Goon or a Serial Killer with no other abilities should give the same result as a Vanilla Townie. In the case of an X-Shot role, the Role Cop should be told how many shots the role started with. not how many shots used/remaining. Trying to investigate an Ascetic role should return "No Result", the same as if the Role Cop had been blocked.

This is from the wiki. So the result is not completly out of the question.
Your claimed role and Mulchs are pretty similar, what Fitz said before.

[StefanB]

Btw: I checked.
14:Daychat: Every evil faction has daychat.

That the got a wagon on the 5-day inocent child screams Rolecop with daychat. This was my second theory about yesterday.

[StefanB]

Fitz: I have seen rolecop get Vanila, ones in an open(Where there was only a posibility), once in a mini normal(Where the rolecop did inspect the mafiagoon and got Vanilla) Reed my post quote from the wiki.

[StefanB]

Hm, I want the second one definatly out before the end of the day, exspecially if you belive that is a guilty.
I understand the desire to do VT/not VT more.

[StefanB]

I really have to check Neopolitan. Sorry I will be back in half an hour.

[StefanB]

VOTE: BuJaber

Sorry I had zero time and I wanted to check the role before.

We have 3 posibilities:

1. BuJaber is a mafia goon
2+3 one of Mulch or Roy is lying.

So BuJaber please claim.

If Roy is telling the truth, Sephiroth is confirmed town.

[StefanB]

Yes and a BuJaberclaim makes this a one scum in either Mulch/BuJaber or Mulch/Roy.

[StefanB]

Sephiroth: Why? We have 9 alive 3 scum is normal for Mini Mormals.

So Situation:
Roy is telling the truth. Sep confirmed town.
1 scum in Mulch/BuJaber. Worst case we lynch the wrong one, lynch the other tomorrow.

[StefanB]

BuJaber: So at the moment you have only your voice and your vote, right?

I don't give much about names of the role, that could be a typo.

[StefanB]

Fitz: 2 posibilitys exist logicaly.
1. Bujaber is a MafiaGoon, Roy and Mulch are right.
2. BuJaber is telling the truth, then no conflict with Roy, conflict with Mulch

[StefanB]

So if we lynch Mulch today and he is a rolecop like I therorised, you would get his rolecop, do I understand the role right?

[StefanB]

Than we have a slight (okay big) problem.
If you were an universal backup, than you wouldn't get Mulchs role.
You wouldn't be an universal backup anymore, because a powerrole already died, Moz.

If your claim was true you would be a day 5-innocent townie right now.

[StefanB]

Roy: Sorry for me he did allready confess it, sorry waited half an hour to get the confession.

To believe BuJaber, their has to be a big big big moderror.

[StefanB]

The slot isn't compromised.
17:If you alone(not your slot) are compromised(you got information you should not have gotten) you will be force-replaced.
Not directly, but from the spirit, a modkill would influence the game in a big way.

[StefanB]

Sorry because it is funny.
BuJaber is now at L-1.

[StefanB]

Fitz: We have a Bu scumclaim.
Roy got BuJaber is not VT.

I voted Bu also.

[StefanB]

Nero and Sephiroth.

Bu: Roy didn't have to claim. He had 0 votes at the time of his claim.

[StefanB]

No objections from me.
Should check if Lalandra has posted today, everyone else did post today.

[StefanB]

Lalandra has not posted.

[StefanB]

Nero: Anythink to say about the question if we need to do somethink before dayend? I think everyone (including the mod) had a fight with Mulch now.

[StefanB]

Christopher had his chance. He did post.
Lalandra is missing, but I don't know if there is really much she can say that has to be said today.

[StefanB]

Hammer now (Sorry Sephiroth), even if town I don't exspect Lal to do anythink that is important today.

[StefanB]

Okay with Lalandra.

Sephiroth is confirmed via Roy as VT. (So he and Mulch are not part of the massclaim)

[StefanB]

1.Sephiroth = Vanilla Townie (C)
2.StefanB Prism ?
3.BuJaber = Mafia Goon (C)
4.TwoInAMillion = VT (C)
5.ChristopherLeeoon ?
6.havingfitz Chumba ?
7.mozamis = Day 5 Inocent Child (C)
8.Nero Cain ?
9.Roy Tagliaferro = 2-shot Neapolitan (C)
10.Lalendra ?
11.Luca Blight = VT (C)
12.Archwing = VT (C)
13.Mulch TheGoldenParadox = 1-shot Rolecop

The Template for the setup. C stands for confirmed either through Mod or through confirmed town.

[StefanB]

Uhm Fitz: Shouldn't we massclaim first?
Actually I chance my vote for starter to Christopher.
If Mulch and Nero agree we have 4 and that is a majority so than we can start.

[StefanB]

Okay whoever from Lalendra and Christopher comes online first, can imho claim and popcorn to the next person.

[StefanB]

Lalendra: Who is next?

[StefanB]

First next to claim.

[StefanB]

I hope that he is one soon.
Lalendra: Who do you suspect the most at the moment?

[StefanB]

Should I see the vote as an encuragment to go next in the massclaim?

[StefanB]

Christopher: Before I answer this WHO SHOULD CLAIM NEXT!

[StefanB]

Christopher thanks.

For your reading:
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=23503
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=23168

To games were I was part of a lynch on day 1 on a claimed powerrole, Spoiler I was town both of the times.

[StefanB]

Lal(I hope this is okay):
Not liking it is normal, but Seph is confirmed town via Roy.

[StefanB]

So I am going to sleep soon, I will try to post early tomorrow, but I can't garantie it.

[StefanB]

Since I am on, before Fit (for about 40 min) should I claim?
Will take a yes from anyone on.

Seraphiroth:
At the moment we are betting the game on the fact, that at last one of Christopher/Lal is scum. (Fitz has stated this, Nero pretty much and I think Mulch is also going in that direction) This is easy on my part. A Nero/Fitzscumteam would be mindblowing. Perhaps that helps in your reads.

[StefanB]

Since the only other one who is missing is Fitz and I have a very big townread there, I will claim to get the massclaim to an end.
Like nearly always VT.

[StefanB]

Mulch: We are definitly on the low-end of town-power.
@Everyone that means that the setup confirms Mulch as town, no chance that we only have two powerroles.

I have theories how that could be balanced.
But if you are a powerrole and not getting mod-confirmed tomorrow (as in Bujaber claimed a role that another player has) claim.

Christopher: Your misunderstanding reaches interesting levels.
Mulchs is clearly talking about Fitz, who was the post before him and is townread by Mulch as Mulch has stated a few times. (Phantomed by Fitz)

[StefanB]

Christopher: Has he contributed anythink an day 3 or 4 than can be considered helpful? Mostly questions that he allready should know the answer of. Exception is perhaps his vote and reason on me.

My question: Why did you ask Mulch to claim his target today first?
In post 1001 he asked who did Roy investigate in which night. No follow up on having this question answered.
1032 is interesting, he quoted information that he later (1105) seems to have forgotten. (Mulch is on-shot)
I know you see me as scum, any other reads? (He scumreaded Sephiroth on day 1, but hasn't given us anythink else readwise)

VOTE: Christopher
let's see if this get the reaction I am exspecting.

Lal:

Yeah at this point I'm willing to lynch Christoper, it seems like he's being intentionally dense or just not reading the thread very closely...almost as if he knows who's town and doesn't need to analyse? Hmm

Also, thanks for pointing out that Seph was confirmed by Roy, I forgot about that.

Anyone else getting the irony between paragraph 1 and 2? Lal doesn't come of as intentionally dense but it sure feels like she isn't paying attention.

[StefanB]

L-1 btw.

[StefanB]

Nero: I am a bit late, but why did you link to a towngame and a scumgame from Lalendra?

[StefanB]

Legitimately the reads today are based on you lot not understanding the difference between your/you’re and whose/who’s.

This is a bit silly, tbh.

This is so bad, ouch.
The votes are based on process of elimination. (From my point of view for example Mulch, Sep: Confirmed town; Nero,Fitz: Townreads; Christopher, Lal: Not townreads, players left) and your play.

You aren't attacked for your grammer. The attacked post fit in a pattern shown in Post 1109 from Fitz.
You are attacked for what you do or don't in this game.

If you still believe that Neros 1140 is about grammar ouch. It is about wordchoice. You used anti-town, which has a different meaning than scum.
(For an example of antitown: Mulchs 1152,1153 is calling out suspected anti-townbehavior than he believes is done from town) The question is is that a slip?

So as a defence Christopher is confirming that he doesn't seem to read and understand the game, tryes to use emotion and continues to not helping.

[StefanB]

Somethink I should have checked ages ago

Thanks for grouping me with two lurkers but these posts are at keast helpful. Can everyone also post something like this.. more importantly who are you willing to vote for today?

For me it's

arch/roy

Leeoon(Christopher)/paradox(Mulch) as secondary options

Strong town reads:

moz

, havingfitz (chumba slot - hf himself is null so far), nero.

Probably town but no strong basis for this: lalendra,

seph

This were BuJabers reads. when he gave them. (Day 2) Normally one scum is hidden in the secondary scumreads, which indicates Christopher.
Lalendra the only living player in the unconfirmed that BuJaber ever voted is in the probably townlist.
Nero is a player BuJaber is budying up to the whole game.

Yes I know my slot is missing. It is the only one.

[StefanB]

I did some rereading yesterday, because I got a paranoia fealing, what if Lal/Nero is the scumpair. But the BuJaber/Nerointeraction doesn't look like scumpartners one bit. It looks like BuJaber buddying up to a townplayer. In this he falled badly and tryed to influence that townplayer in other ways.

There is nothing in Christophers iso that gives me pause. My most positive read on him was on the end of day 2:
Lurkerslot, not much content from the new player, but he is perhaps not caught up, has recently replaced in.
Is a newbie with a conservative playstile. Can't say if newbietown or newbiescum.
Post on day 3 and day 4 did point to newbiescum.

There is one point in Leeooniso that gives me pause. He voted BuJaber on early day 1 and stayed there some time.
But he stopped posting very early on day 1 and at that moment there were 2 votes on Bu: His and Archwing. Could be distancing.
The waggon got a lot of steam and than just got ignored in about 8 hours.
In his next post after the waggon had shrunk to 3 votes he switched to Roy quitly. (Who was just getting steam)
Since Mulch is in the only other slot stil alive there is unfortunatly not much info on this waggon.

[StefanB]

What I am sure of today is that I want one of these 4 lynched and nobody else at the moment:
Roy, Leoon(=Christopher), Arch, Stefan.

If you believe that BuJaber had scum in his lynchpool, it should be between me and Christopher. And since I know I am town...

Interesting the switch between the earlier post and this. Mulch townreads BuJaber he is no longer in the lynch/scumpool.
My reread wasn't that helpful. It just found another reason for townreading Mulch (Yes I found another reason to townread confirmed town)
TheGoldenParadox voted BuJaber basicly the whole game.

Pre-Edit:
Nero: Do you have anything that points to a Lal/Fitzteam, or do you have anything that points to Fitzscum at all?
Because Fitz looks from my point like towniest town. I find more and more reason for Christopherscum and if Christopher/Lal is not the scumteam that would suck.

[StefanB]

Mulch, Sephiroth:
This is perhaps insanity, but you are in agreement that a Fitz/Nero/Bujaberscumteam doesn't make sense, right?

My problem is that if the scumteam isn't Christopher/Lal, there has to be a scumteam with one of them off. Now I think about what if Lal isn't scum, but paranoia over scumtems builds an alternative with Lal.

[StefanB]

I townread Fitz because his post make a lot of sense. I can see were he is coming from and all this points to Fitz is town.
About the Bu-Fitzconection I will not comment. Except 935 is clearly a typo, this is a Roypost.

[StefanB]

Why would you not comment?

Because I think it will help the game more if Fitz coments on that before me.
To make it clear I have read it, am thinking about it.

[StefanB]

Seph:
If the game is to much for you and you ask to be replaced, than we would not think bad of you.
You seemed to have Problems since at last day 5.
I don't want to make you feal that you should replaced out, but don't stress yourself. In the end is it only a game, there are many thinks which are more important.

[StefanB]

Fitz:
Look at 1195 repaired in 1199. Does that make more sense?

[StefanB]

My stand is I have my opinion about 1195, but I will not comment, because I think this is not helpful at the moment.
I am at the moment trying to no loose the game by looking at it as is to easy or overthinking it.

[StefanB]

Christopher, Lal: If you are town, you are both struggeling. Can you two share some townread perhaps if scumreads or complete reads are too dificult?

[StefanB]

Just to clarify, are we talking 8, 12 and 14 or his 8th throught 14th posts wich would be 59, 67, 78
104, 108, 111, 116, 120

If I would have written it and not srewed up horrible, ISO Bujaber would have meaned his post 8th through 14th, the second alternative. It is as far as I know the logic reading.

Your discusion with Mulch: This is the problem with discusing the past. Certain Posts from scum look townish. We all know that Bu flipped scum, Mulch was part of the reason that he got lynched.

[StefanB]

Fitz:
Also for Mulch speaks gamebalance and how the whole day 2 played out, would be a very chaotic buss.

About the BuJaberwaggon: Yes there was scum on it. BuJaber. A Second one? Imposible to tell.
We could speculate when clever scum would definitly buss. The only vote that is in question is my own.
After that we have no vote until the scumclaim. Then we had every player off the waggon willing to hammer. (Christopher and Lal only stated after the fact)
That Nero did it, after all, is pretty null.
Not much towncredit to get in hammering a claimed scum.

TR: I was perhaps the wrong person to talk.

[StefanB]

Since I don't know if I will be on time tomorrow, I will make this post to clarify that I am still there, I am waiting for the replacement.
Interesting that Christopher is sillent again.
About TGP I think he is not an alt, but I haven't found anythink substantial.
But after playing once with a player who forgot the whole game that he was a roleblocker, I will say that nothing is imposible.
(In this game we didn't massclaim, because it ended on day 3)

[StefanB]

Well Seph is going to be replaced.

[StefanB]

Which is interesting.
In my opinion Christopher is the most likly scum.

[StefanB]

Well I am allways ready to listen to confirmed town. If I aggree with it, is a different question.
It will be hard for the replacement because of the deadline.

[StefanB]

Baveria.

[StefanB]

Christopher, Lal: If you are town, you are both struggeling. Can you two share some townread perhaps if scumreads or complete reads are too dificult?

To repeat something I wrote earlier. Lalendra anythink you can give us?

[StefanB]

a) We are asking a lot of a replacement who will need to replace in, read almost 50 pages of content and then have meaningful discussion with all of us in just 2 real world days.
b) We are pretty much all in agreement, I understand wanting to hear from conftown but if it doesn't change anything then it's just a waste of time.
c) Conftown can still be wrong, and if they are and we switch to a counterwagon on their say-so, quicklynch and it flips town, that's going to suck.
d) Seph's slot was conftown based on Roy's results but why are we so sure Roy is town? I remember everyone being fairly suspicious of him and now suddenly his results on Seph makes Seph conftown, I'm not sure why we are taking Roy 100% at his word without other corroborating information.

@Stefan - I didn't miss your question but I should have responded. I'd rather not answer it right now because I don't want to give scum any ideas just prior to the night phase, and I'd also like to have the information from the flip to factor into my analysis.

a) some players can pull that off.
b)+c) the reads are not only for today.
d) Roy is flipped town. Town Powerroles should never lie about their actions. We give players the benefit of a doubt re playing to win.

about the point at the @ later, when I have more time.

[StefanB]

Hello Havo:
There has been claims, most important was Mulchs 1-shot Rolecop claim.
The rest of the people claimed townday (Powerroles are found in post 1 of the game under Dead)
Normally we would ask the replaced player to claim, if you read day 3 and 4 you will learn why in your case this question is not a priority.

[StefanB]

@Stefan - I didn't miss your question but I should have responded. I'd rather not answer it right now because I don't want to give scum any ideas just prior to the night phase, and I'd also like to have the information from the flip to factor into my analysis.

That would be a reason normally, but in this game, I don't think the risk of giving them ideas is that much of a danger...

[StefanB]

Actually important claims:
Roys Town 2-shot Neapolitan: Identified BuJaber (dead goon) as not VT, second one is important for everyone (except perhaps to you Havo)
Mulch: 1-shot Rolecop: BuJaber is vanilla

Other townpowerrole: 5-day inocent child Mozamis like Roy dead

[StefanB]

and Lal thanks for the reads, they are helpful.

[StefanB]

Havo:
The situation at the moment is that we are lynching Christopher, but want to give you time to get your ideas out. So this is why the game is stalling at the moment.

[StefanB]

So 2 goons against 3 x-shot + situatiational Powerroles makes sense.
(Had this hope but didn't state it.

[StefanB]

I think it helped greatly that the scumpool was pretty reduced.
Mulch, Roy and Sephiroth(Thanks for the investigation, that really helped) came from primesuspects to confirmed town.
I townread Fitz and Nero (Fitz initialy on day 3 more) and couldn't belive in that scumteam.
So that left Christopher and Lal.
Lal was interesting. I wavered from okay that could be a confused townie to WTF.
Christopher looked like the one who was easier to me.
And I was very afraid of the Nero/Fitz/me Endgame...

[StefanB]

Bu:
I don't know if the decision would be harder. We know we would have lost if none of Lal/Christopher were scum (That was the only think holding back the lynch a little) and that wasn't true.
The only think that could have rescued Christopher was turning the waggon to Lal and then turn up the paranoia.
Perhaps if we were under the assumption that there were only 2 scum, than Mulch would have not been towncleared by nearly everyone.
Everyone alive was scumreading Chris so the position was bad.

Whitout the guilty you would have been in a good position.
So that was for me the gamechancer.

[StefanB]

And I wanted to say somethink about Roys strategy in this game.
Risky (could get him lynched) but it worked.
The strategy is not uncommon.

Havo: Not every replacement is that easy.

I was very suprised about the archwingkill (did exspect another one) and always prepare your fakeclaim Bu

[StefanB]

And what could have really screwed town over was the day 3 found between Mulch and Not Known?
What happened there?

Havo: Your first post said you weren't a very good mafiaplayer but I gave your games a look. Normally you don't seem to be a myslynch target, that is a sucess.
And not every player likes been confirmed town, it makes read much more dificult.
Also in this case if the game wouldn't have ended you would probably be nightkilled...
And Mulch who was a bit more suspected would have been probably nightkilled a night later (that was my reason for telling Lal that her reads wouldn't hurt)

[StefanB]

And it was funny how often the fact that Sephiroth was town had to stated.

[StefanB]

And btw thanks to Not Known for the daystart messages, they are nice. I think the nightstartmessages were unnecesary but daystart was nice.

Bu: There are a lot of players who enjoy town more, I do too.

[StefanB]

Christopher:
Your day 2 play was okay. You came of as a conservative newbie.
After that it got problematic.

The case on me was to little. I was only the one point. I am sure making a case of me being scum, could have been a lot more points.
Even I was very tempted to just ignore it, because it was only the one point.

Actually the powerrole exept Roys were in theory not that dangerous to scum.
The 5-day IC should never survive until day 5.
The 1-shot RC not a danger to the goons (only in the case were it doubles with the Neapolitan), confirms the IC, and could really get difficult with the Neapolitan look at the stuff Fitz dug up.
So it was an interesting setup.

[StefanB]

The clear on Seph was by Roy and someone said thank you in tread, everone else said thank you in their hard probably.

Town did not gamble on the fact that their were only 2 scum. Town gambled on the fact that their was at last one scum in the lurkers. I gamble on the fact that Fitz/Nero both beeing scum made no sense.

RadiantCowbells: You were one of the reviewers? I don't think that Moz would have been lynched, if she had claimed. I don't know what would have happened after the claim.