Open 109a - new management/thread soon! (before 722)

[Zilla]

If he's not thinking at all about what he's doing, he could be town, but I like to assume other players know what they are doing when they play.

Both of his posts so far haven't been good.

[yorgi]

I believe Sen's is picking up from what they did last game. There was a quick lynch game 1 and scum lost, but I didn't read the whole thing to understand how quick lynching worked in that case.
The second game there wasn't a quick lynch and scum won that game.
I know reading the game scum have more to fear as once one is lynched the other dies and town wins. So in a sense to see who defends whom may be an indicator as scum for this game?

[Zilla]

I agree defense is going to be a clear indicator, and at the same time, the mafia has nothing to lose from it. The game will be over when their partner goes down, so why not go all out on defense?

Similarly, I can see you're putting up some defense for Sens here, and I'm quite suspicious of it myself; let him answer for it rather than giving him an escape hatch. I don't understand what you mean by "last game"... Is there some series of games I'm unaware of? There are hundreds of games on the site.

Further, quicklynching does not make for town winning.

[SensFan]

Further, quicklynching does not make for town winning.

In this game, randomly lynching Day 1 is practically guaranteed to win the game for Town, actually.

This is the third straight Lovers I've been in, both as Scum, then Town. I advocated a quicklynch in both the other 2 games. So yeah, you can unvote me now, since its clearly not an alignment tell.

And yes, I don't understand the concept behind "You have no votes on you and its page one. EFF OH ESS!!!!!"

[Zilla]

^ I'd vote you for that post if I wasn't already voting.

1) You say this is the third lovers game you've been in, and that you advocated quicklynch as scum in both other games, and then say that it's clearly not a scum tell because you are town in this one. This is backwards logic, anyone can see that. "I've done this as scum twice before, but since I'm doing it now, and I'm town, it's not a scumtell!"

2) quicklynching day 1 isn't going to get us anything except a waste of a day and lots of WIFOM.

3) You don't understand my reason for voting at all then. My initial FOS was because you weren't at threshold of scuminess for me to vote, but your response post put it over that threshold. I'm now more than reasonably convinced I hit paydirt and this game will be over in one day.

[yorgi]

What information did you find in the last 2 game Sens that leads you to believe that quick lynch helps the town?

Zilla I believe if Sens did it in both games it is a null tell at best.

[Zilla]

So far, it's empirically proven that he does it as scum. It's a null-tell at best meaning that at worst, it's a scum tell, in which case I'd agree with you, but it absolutely isn't a town-tell, I can say that much.

[SensFan]

^ I'd vote you for that post if I wasn't already voting.

1) You say this is the third lovers game you've been in, and that you advocated quicklynch as scum in both other games, and then say that it's clearly not a scum tell because you are town in this one. This is backwards logic, anyone can see that. "I've done this as scum twice before, but since I'm doing it now, and I'm town, it's not a scumtell!"

2) quicklynching day 1 isn't going to get us anything except a waste of a day and lots of WIFOM.

3) You don't understand my reason for voting at all then. My initial FOS was because you weren't at threshold of scuminess for me to vote, but your response post put it over that threshold. I'm now more than reasonably convinced I hit paydirt and this game will be over in one day.

1) Please read my post. This is my third game. In the first game, I was Scum, and hammered on page 2. In the second game, I was Town, and advocated a page 1 hammer, and ended up hammering someone on page 3 (if I recall correctly, I know it was "early"). Tell me how this can possibly be a Scumtell for me.
2) A 'random' quicklynch practically guarantees a Town win, actually. See the previous Lovers game for a nice explanation of this.
3) You don't understand the game of Mafia at all, then. An FoS is for when you cannot (due to rules) or will not (due to hammers) vote someone.

[Zilla]

This is the third straight Lovers I've been in,

both as Scum

, then Town. I advocated a quicklynch in both the other 2 games.

This reads to me as "Scum for both of the two games, then town for this one."

You still have to explain why a quicklynch means town win. Pointing at a game with a quicklynch and a town win does not prove anything, nor does it prove why you consider it to be a beneficial town tactic.

FoS means Finger of Suspicion. It indicates suspicion. It doesn't impact the game like a vote does. I said I suspected you but not strongly enough to vote you, until you made an ass of yourself enough to warrant a vote.

I've played over 50 mafia games, not all on this site, I think I understand how Maifa works.

[Zilla]

To all other players: This is not a three person game. I don't like the silence, especially the length of it. I didn't recieve a prod, actually, so I don't even know if the mod sent it out.

I think we have both an AFK mod and a mostly AFK playerbase, which is not good news at all.

[SensFan]

This is the third straight Lovers I've been in,

both as Scum

, then Town. I advocated a quicklynch in both the other 2 games.

This reads to me as "Scum for both of the two games, then town for this one."

Meant as a pseudo combination of "both as Scum and Town" and "Scum, then Town."

You still have to explain why a quicklynch means town win. Pointing at a game with a quicklynch and a town win does not prove anything, nor does it prove why you consider it to be a beneficial town tactic.

Statistically, Town has a 33% chance of winning today. Assuming we mess up, we have a 40% chance of winning tomorrow. That leaves Scum with 66x60=40% chance of winning if we lynch randomly.

Then, you add in the fact that Scum can't distance/bus in the slightest, a 'random' Day 1 quicklynch is almost certainly a Town win.

[Zilla]

So how in the world does that put random lynching at an advantage over focused lynching? This game is already stacked against scum, considering they have no nightkill and are a two-person-wide target. Random lynching, especially ending the day early, especially when you can take what you can get as scum and off town players as quickly as possible, is not a valid strategy.

It should be no surprise that my initial self-vote was part random, part stirring-up-the-hive. That's easily recognizable. I was set to ride it into martyrdom, thinking we would have at least a mostly full day's worth of posts to analyze. There's a lot of room for speculation on who would vote for me and when, but I'm extremely critical of the L-1 vote. No scum with any wherewithal would dare hammer a rush wagon like that, WIFOM or not. L-1, on the other hand, is a perfect place, considering the pace, for scum to stick thir vote. It's not immediately scummy and the consequence can easily be blamed on the hammervoter, and, as I explained in my first post on this, it gives scum two kills easily. If done right, the scum pair can tag-team out for day 2 and work toward clearing SensFan while still riding it out on the hammervoter being lynched. Hey, a town flip on the hammervote actually helps SensFan out in this case, since it makes the Zilla wagon look less scummy.

I can't, however, see a town ploy for rushing a lynch. It ends the day early and basically eliminates a player to help scum. All they want to do is make a mad dash for LyLo and hopefully come out of it with a win, and the less they have to hide, the better. The faster the game goes, the less scum have to worry about, because until they win, they're losing.

[Zilla]

EBWOP:

Also, since you're such a fan of random voting, would you vote yourself if you were leading a lynch?

[SensFan]

So how in the world does that put random lynching at an advantage over focused lynching?

Focussed lynching allows Scum manipulation.

[Zilla]

oooh, scary, it's not like they don't leave a trail that you can actually follow up on.

And how does random voting not allow for scum manipulation? All they've got to do is make the weakest of cases, and not even support it in any way, and they can win the game by controlling the "random" lynch.

You ignored my question.

[SensFan]

And how does random voting not allow for scum manipulation? All they've got to do is make the weakest of cases, and not even support it in any way, and they can win the game by controlling the "random" lynch.

Exactly!

[Zilla]

So you agree that random lynching gives scum the win. With one word that contradicts everything you've said so far. Nicely played.

[Zilla]

EBWOP:

Also, since you're such a fan of random voting, would you vote yourself if you were leading a lynch?

[SensFan]

So you agree that random lynching gives scum the win. With one word that contradicts everything you've said so far. Nicely played.

No, I agree that if we 'randomly' quicklynch someone Day 1, it will almost certainly be a Town player that is lynched Day 1.

But then the Scum will almost certainly stick out like purple-spotted grass. Go and read the previous Lovers game, by Day 2, I was confirmed Pro-Town to every Town player. It just so happened that the Town turned out to be as close-minded as you, and I was quicklynched in LyLo in like 4 posts.

[SensFan]

EBWOP:

Also, since you're such a fan of random voting, would you vote yourself if you were leading a lynch?

Of course not, that's ridiculous.

Then again, anyone who self-votes in the random stage is more likely than not to be Scum...

[Zilla]

Don't think I'm so close minded at all, I'm playing one step ahead of what you're proposing and proposing we analyze those who are after the quicklynch before the lynch even happens.

Which is exactly what brings my case on you. NOT THAT IT MATTERS BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONLY THREE PEOPLE PLAYING!!!!

Assuming we did go to lynch, I'm telling you what I would say on day 2 if I was alive to say it. Your vote is scummy and your proposed method of play is scummy, it's unthinking and costly and lets town be lead by scum who can appear untraceable with hardly any effort considering all they have to do is say they support random lynching to be considered town.

[SensFan]

Your vote is scummy and your proposed method of play is scummy, it's unthinking and costly and lets town be lead by scum who can appear untraceable with hardly any effort considering all they have to do is say they support random lynching to be considered town.

Except they CAN'T support truly random lynches. They must do everything in their power to avoid having their partner lynched.

[Zilla]

1) I came to play a game of strategy, not of chance. Random voting means our only chance at winning is to randomly happen upon a mafia, and then the game is over. While the odds may be in town favor, this is a) chancy and careless, and b) not in the spirit of the game.

2) All they have to do is propose the random lynch, and they win by controlling the lynch.

3) Random lynching gives NO accountability. You can't find scum that way, your best bet is to stumble across them.

4) You say the mafia will be obvious from the results of the first lynch. a) how? b) wouldn't targetting anyone no longer be random, defeating the point of only random lynching? c) Who is to say the mafia even vote at all?

[Zilla]

also:

Mod: Prod everyone except Sensfan and myself (Yorgi might need one for the heck of it...)
Someone: Prod mod

[SensFan]

1) I came to play a game of strategy, not of chance. Random voting means our only chance at winning is to randomly happen upon a mafia, and then the game is over. While the odds may be in town favor, this is a) chancy and careless, and b) not in the spirit of the game.

No, no, and no some more. Random lynching in this game is comparable to random voting in most games. We might happen apon a nice target, but Town really can't win this Day1 anyways.

2) All they have to do is propose the random lynch, and they win by controlling the lynch.

Can you explain where they 'win'? Did I ever suggest randomly lynching tomorrow?

3) Random lynching gives NO accountability. You can't find scum that way, your best bet is to stumble across them.

Hey look, wrong again. I can find Scum from the fucking 'Random' VOTING stage, you don't think I can find Scum from a 'Random' LYNCH?

4) You say the mafia will be obvious from the results of the first lynch. a) how? b) wouldn't targetting anyone no longer be random, defeating the point of only random lynching? c) Who is to say the mafia even vote at all?

We are only 'Random' lynching today; not tomorrow.

I'm starting to think you might be dumb Town, and not Scum.

Vote: Yorgi

; let's start a new wagon.