Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[Zachrulez]

Oh yay, another scoring system.

This one works the opposite of the one I'm familiar with though... low score bad, high good. The one I saw before this was low good and high bad.

Anyway, I don't agree with a lurker being scored as low as you put him. I would much rather see players replaced than lynched solely because they lurk.

I guess you believe lurking is scummy and lurkers should be lynched?

Anyway, I'm more concerned with JereIC at the moment. I don't get why he was so worried about casting a 4th vote on someone. Lynch -3 really isn't that bad is it?

I don't understand one why he cast the vote in the first place, and two how he didn't realize that springlullaby had 3 votes on her.

Just find it strange.

[PerArdua]

I would agree that lurking = scum is overrated, but given the fact that Sipylus is fairly active in his other games (I'm not really certain on the rules for mentioning ongoing games, I've seen some people mention them and others completely ignore them) I think it's important to note that he is lurking here, but nowhere else.

As to an appropriate number, I think about 40% of the required votes to lynch is apt for pressuring lurkers. In this case 3 votes would be about the max for a lurker IMO.

[Skillit]

i just was reasserting my random vote because i feel i was robbed of it by the mod resetting all the votes.

[Sipylus]

I haven't posted so far because the lines of reasoning going on here seem a little ridiculous, I've been slacking off a bit its true. Now though I have something more interesting to talk about, so I shall post.

Namely - Which is more harmful to town, lurking v non-content posting.

Cases in point (all post counts not including confirm vote, all categorizing entirely personal opinion. My vote count not including this post):

Sipylus - 0 posts, 0 content posts

Beyond_Birthday - 6 posts, 6 content posts
Ectomancer - 17 posts, 16 content posts
JereIC - 5 posts, 5 content posts
Nuwen - 4 posts, 4 content posts
Pablo Molinero - 1 post, 0 content posts
PerArdua - 5 posts, 5 content posts
Skillit - 1 post, -1 content posts <-- 2 Random votes on me !!
springlullaby - 7 posts, 6 content posts
Zachrulez - 4 posts, 4 content posts
Zer0ph34r - 7 posts, 1-2 content posts <-- I can't work out on one of them, so it *could* be meaningful
zwetschenwasser - 4 posts, 3 content posts

last minute inclusion - skillit posted content as I was typing this. Screw it, I'm not fixing it.

OK its totally subjective and whatever, but in terms of wheat to chaff I'm off to a rocking start - along with JereIC, Nuwen, PerArdua and Zachrulez. Ecto gets an honorable mention for posting as much "content" as he did, even if it was just stimulating this total BS line of argument ("But but but Mom, I WANT to random vote!" "NO, you missed your chance. No random vote for you!").

Pablo and Skillit lose at wheat to chaff, but haven't really offended much with the whole chaff action.

ZERO - stop posting crap, and start posting content.

Anyone else, how do you rate chaff v not posting at all?

Unvote, Vote: Zer0ph34r

until he posts more content and less chaff.

[Ectomancer]

Anyone else, how do you rate chaff v not posting at all?

I pressure to replace people who don't post(usually the mod if there has been no response in thread to a lurker call). Someone said that I could be a bit harsh, so you can understand how I might tell someone to either play the game or get out of the way for someone else who will.
There are a couple of terms I find associated with the chafe comment.
One of the terms I use is "muddying the waters". It is arguing about what is essentially nothing. One reason my hackles were raised by this drawn out non-argument about whether people are entitled to random votes and who has the "authority" to call the RVS over. Err, what? This type of play should garner strong attention and active deterrents.
Lots of theory discussion can also qualify as chaff (though not always). Since town can easily be drawn into it (and sometimes it is tough to tell who is the instigator or perpetuator), the best move in that situation is to move the conversation towards more fruitful ground.

unvote

Tired of quibbling over these random votes with people.

[Pablo Molinero]

I'm still alive, I swear! Sorry fellas, I didn't have the joy of early-Day 1 on the first game I played. (I subbed in about 5-6 pages in when there was plenty of content to go off of.) So, I'm kind of rubbish at picking out this initial stuff when there's nothing solid. As expected, no bells in my head are going off and the random vote thing was just silly to begin with; hopefully it's out of everyone's systems. Skillit didn't seem malicious or anything and didn't press too hard. Meh. Also:

unvote

Going back, it's likely springlullaby just was fishing for reactions in that post that got her the first few votes. Ecto and PerArdua win points simply for being active (extra for the numbers to please my inner-statistician!). Although in my short time on the site, I've seen both ends of the activity spectrum in one game. That is: scum being THE most active player with his buddy being the least active. No real trends there from what I've experienced.

So... yeah, I'll hold on to my vote for a while and look at the more neutral peoples that haven't posted much (irony!) when I have time.

[JereIC]

Anyway, I'm more concerned with JereIC at the moment. I don't get why he was so worried about casting a 4th vote on someone. Lynch -3 really isn't that bad is it?

I don't understand one why he cast the vote in the first place, and two how he didn't realize that springlullaby had 3 votes on her.

Just find it strange.

As I said in my earlier post, I don't like to put people over halfway to a lynch unless I actually intend for them to get lynched. If you've seen speed lynches on page 2, you'll know where my caution is coming from. Counting the votes is simply my screw up - I didn't see Zerophear's vote in post # 19.

Anyway, this line in Sipylus's post is bugging me:

...in terms of wheat to chaff I'm off to a rocking start - along with JereIC, Nuwen, PerArdua and Zachrulez...

I don't understand how you're identifying these people. If it's for the large amount of wheat, then why aren't Beyond_Birthday or Springlullaby included? Why are you, since you said you didn't have any content posts?

[springlullaby]

Anyone else, how do you rate chaff v not posting at all?

I pressure to replace people who don't post(usually the mod if there has been no response in thread to a lurker call). Someone said that I could be a bit harsh, so you can understand how I might tell someone to either play the game or get out of the way for someone else who will.
There are a couple of terms I find associated with the chafe comment.
One of the terms I use is "muddying the waters". It is arguing about what is essentially nothing. One reason my hackles were raised by this drawn out non-argument about whether people are entitled to random votes and who has the "authority" to call the RVS over. Err, what? This type of play should garner strong attention and active deterrents.
Lots of theory discussion can also qualify as chaff (though not always). Since town can easily be drawn into it (and sometimes it is tough to tell who is the instigator or perpetuator), the best move in that situation is to move the conversation towards more fruitful ground.

unvote

Tired of quibbling over these random votes with people.

Quitting the spotlight so soon? I thought you wanted it?

I'm neither convince by Perdua not do I like Zwet's 'lighten up' reply to Ectomancer.

I agree with the assessment of Zero's post by Sipylus.

[springlullaby]

Anyway, I'm more concerned with JereIC at the moment. I don't get why he was so worried about casting a 4th vote on someone. Lynch -3 really isn't that bad is it?

I don't understand one why he cast the vote in the first place, and two how he didn't realize that springlullaby had 3 votes on her.

Just find it strange.

As I said in my earlier post, I don't like to put people over halfway to a lynch unless I actually intend for them to get lynched. If you've seen speed lynches on page 2, you'll know where my caution is coming from. Counting the votes is simply my screw up - I didn't see Zerophear's vote in post # 19.

Anyway, this line in Sipylus's post is bugging me:

...in terms of wheat to chaff I'm off to a rocking start - along with JereIC, Nuwen, PerArdua and Zachrulez...

I don't understand how you're identifying these people. If it's for the large amount of wheat, then why aren't Beyond_Birthday or Springlullaby included? Why are you, since you said you didn't have any content posts?

Why, I think speedlynch on page two is the best that could happen to town, yes/no?

What is so detrimental about speedlynch?

[Zer0ph34r]

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

[Ectomancer]

Anyone else, how do you rate chaff v not posting at all?

I pressure to replace people who don't post(usually the mod if there has been no response in thread to a lurker call). Someone said that I could be a bit harsh, so you can understand how I might tell someone to either play the game or get out of the way for someone else who will.
There are a couple of terms I find associated with the chafe comment.
One of the terms I use is "muddying the waters". It is arguing about what is essentially nothing. One reason my hackles were raised by this drawn out non-argument about whether people are entitled to random votes and who has the "authority" to call the RVS over. Err, what? This type of play should garner strong attention and active deterrents.
Lots of theory discussion can also qualify as chaff (though not always). Since town can easily be drawn into it (and sometimes it is tough to tell who is the instigator or perpetuator), the best move in that situation is to move the conversation towards more fruitful ground.

unvote

Tired of quibbling over these random votes with people.

Quitting the spotlight so soon? I thought you wanted it?

I'm neither convince by Perdua not do I like Zwet's 'lighten up' reply to Ectomancer.

I agree with the assessment of Zero's post by Sipylus.

Someone has to crank up the engine. Once started it runs just fine on its own, you just have to keep giving it gas. It's counter-productive to continue cranking unless it has stalled.

[JereIC]

Why, I think speedlynch on page two is the best that could happen to town, yes/no?

What is so detrimental about speedlynch?

Are you kidding? A speedlynch deprives the town of information, which we desperately need on the first page. This is a well known problem - it's even discussed on the (admittedly brief) Speedlynch page on MafiaWiki.

[zwetschenwasser]

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

Blah post. He's trying to pretend that he's posting content and not actively lurking. minor FoS: Zero

Springlullaby: What don't you like? I was joking about not knowing what's going on, and Ecto thought I meant it, so I set him straight.

[Pablo Molinero]

Why, I think speedlynch on page two is the best that could happen to town, yes/no?

What is so detrimental about speedlynch?

Erm, because in later game, the more info for the town to look back on, the better? Maybe my first vote for you was right...

[Zachrulez]

Why, I think speedlynch on page two is the best that could happen to town, yes/no?

What is so detrimental about speedlynch?

That post made me blink my eyes in amazement.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Anyway, this line in Sipylus's post is bugging me:

...in terms of wheat to chaff I'm off to a rocking start - along with JereIC, Nuwen, PerArdua and Zachrulez...

I don't understand how you're identifying these people. If it's for the large amount of wheat, then why aren't Beyond_Birthday or Springlullaby included? Why are you, since you said you didn't have any content posts?

Now, I am not familiar with the whole terminology of "wheat" in terms of chaff=useless matter, but are you saying that spring and I are posting worthless posts or useful? Just curious because I have no idea how to react to this or otherwise approach this conversation. (ie, your question and conversation resulting from ~)

Why, I think speedlynch on page two is the best that could happen to town, yes/no?

What is so detrimental about speedlynch?

I am sure scum would not folly by saying that a short day is good for town. (Short days are scum favorable by at least 70%.)

However, a speedlynch on day 1, page 2, could have a theoretical benefit via vote analysis.

Result of this thought train: I don't like the ambiguous interpretation of this post, and mildly raises my suspicions. It immediately read scum, but upon further thought, looks town. See, a scum player can manipulate the situation of a speed lynch pending on their position at the time (for, against, part of the wagon, etc.). Not much, maybe only 1% of a percentage point, still, slight increase in suspicion.

Note: Interestingly, zach, Pablo, and JereIC have all immediately discounted the theoretical. True, I agree, this is very suspicious, but just curious as to the amount of thought you three have placed in reacting. I must say that I feel Spring is trying to get as many reactions as possible from her posts at this point, but there is a strong possibility that she is scum.

Yes, suspicion is raised by 2-3%, discreditting my earlier assumption of only 1% increase.

Ecto's unvote strikes me as convenient. Hm... not scummy, just noting that it feels convenient. Who else posted...

Oh yes, Sis. Sis' assement of the posts does recount my earlier attack on Zer0 for his null posts. I like this. I also agree with his general assessment. However, I need my above question to JereIC answered in order to actually follow where the conversation will head.

[springlullaby]

Questions addressed at the populace in general, requesting replies:

How many players do you think are not aware of the fact that a reasonable amount of discussion per day is propitious to town?

How scummy would a speedlynch in a normal setup be?

How is scummy activity not good news?

Are you truly unfamiliar with this line of argument?

[springlullaby]

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

Blah post. He's trying to pretend that he's posting content and not actively lurking. minor FoS: Zero

Springlullaby: What don't you like? I was joking about not knowing what's going on, and Ecto thought I meant it, so I set him straight.

Your comment 'sheesh, lighten up' may denotes that you do not assign possibly malicious purpose to Ectomancer's line of questioning at all. Which I don't like.

[Ectomancer]

Using the term speedlynch and trying to assign a label of "good" and "bad" is not possible because it leaves ambiguous such questions as whether or not you wait for a claim, or whether you lynch regardless of claim (sounds silly, but you never know people). If you don't go through with it, then we dont really have a speed lynch (one didnt happen).
One advantage to it would be that pressure is quickly mounted and if scum is not driving it, they are forced to make rapid decisions, and of course have a greater chance of making mistakes. A long day is good, sure, but it also allows scum time to lay designs into the game. It isn't always a bad thing to rattle them out of their tracks.
The real question of course is, what are they being speedlynched for?

[Ectomancer]

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

Blah post. He's trying to pretend that he's posting content and not actively lurking. minor FoS: Zero

Springlullaby: What don't you like? I was joking about not knowing what's going on, and Ecto thought I meant it, so I set him straight.

Your comment 'sheesh, lighten up' may denotes that you do not assign possibly malicious purpose to Ectomancer's line of questioning at all. Which I don't like.

Ooh. I gotcha. He doesn't assign possibly malicious purpose because he knows it isn't.

[Pablo Molinero]

How many players do you think are not aware of the fact that a reasonable amount of discussion per day is propitious to town?

Not many that are playing here, I would think. Sure, I'm sure some would go for it, but you'd be more likely to see that in the newbie forum.

How scummy would a speedlynch in a normal setup be?

I can't see speedlynch being very likely unless a scum is powering it. I guess there's the liklihood of a town strategy to unbalance the scum like ecto described, but I can't see enough townies going along with it for it to go through. The simple explanation seems to me that the speedlynch needs scum to push it along and over the brink.

How is scummy activity not good news?

...Ah. I see. If speedlynch ends up scummy, you have a ready-made batch of suspects on Day 2. Still, risky as hell since ya basically lose Day 1.

Are you truly unfamiliar with this line of argument?

Yep. Still learning.

[JereIC]

Now, I am not familiar with the whole terminology of "wheat" in terms of chaff=useless matter, but are you saying that spring and I are posting worthless posts or useful? Just curious because I have no idea how to react to this or otherwise approach this conversation. (ie, your question and conversation resulting from ~)

Useful - according to Sipylus. In his post he noted you had made 6 posts, all 6 of which had content, while spring had 7, 6 of which had content. The other people he said were "off to a rocking start" all had a similar number of posts, all of which were content - except for himself.

Questions addressed at the populace in general, requesting replies:

How many players do you think are not aware of the fact that a reasonable amount of discussion per day is propitious to town?

How scummy would a speedlynch in a normal setup be?

How is scummy activity not good news?

Are you truly unfamiliar with this line of argument?

If you've got a point, just make it. We don't need to spend a page or two exploring this with the Socratic method.

[springlullaby]

If you have a better topic of discuss, by all mean point to it.

In meantime, please answer.

[springlullaby]

*ion

[Beyond_Birthday]

Questions addressed at the populace in general, requesting replies:

How many players do you think are not aware of the fact that a reasonable amount of discussion per day is propitious to town?

So far, I think four have already discounted your speedlynch question. I personally said that short days favor scum, indicating that the opposite is true for town. I am not everyone else, and thus, I have no idea how many people in this game would think a short day is protown.

How scummy would a speedlynch in a normal setup be?

Given 7 people necessary to lynch, it would be about 3/7 scummy, or less. As a result, the behavior of generating and following through with a speedlynch is about 4/7 anti town, but not scummy. In none mathematical thought, however, the idea of a speedlynch would be fairly scummy. (This, however, changes as day goes on. Sometimes a speedlynch is resulted from obvious scum later on. Early in a game, a miscue by a player is usually venial.)

How is scummy activity not good news?

It makes for finding scum easier. However, a townie who acts scummy give scum a cover. It depends on the actual alignment of the player who is participating in what town would consider to be "scummy behavior."

Are you truly unfamiliar with this line of argument?

The style or argument? No. This exact line, yes. Your general questions seem to be leading into game theory and don't seem to be an obvious help to town. However, I will trust your play for the moment, and review it when it yields (or fails to yields, as the case may be) results.