Mini #1007 (Game Over)

[AlmasterGM]

WARNING! WARNING!

Scum

Village Idiot detected!

Seriously though, wtf. I don't even know how to respond to such blatant excuses, scrambling, and lies. At first I thought, "it's scummy," then I was like, "nah, it's just a VI." But really it's not just VI ... it's stupid scummy.

[drmyshottyizsik]

@ Zachrulez
Yes, and if he really were PGO then why would he announce it? It is anti-town because now if he is PGO then he won't get night killed so we won't have any easy get rid of mafia. And if he isn't, then he is being a selfish towny and throwing us under the bus to save himself. ORRRRRRR he could be scum and use this so we don't lynch him.

[Elleran]

I'm not sure I understand the wagon on Hoopla. I can see reason to question whether or not the claim is optimal, but I'm having a hard time seeing how a claim like this would benefit scum. Has scum even historically fake-claimed PGO ever?

Like I've said, I've player plenty of games in real life where the scum has fake-claimed PGO. It's one of the easiest role to fake claim since other players will be too scared to shoot or detect/investigate the fake-claimer. It's quite effective when it works.

@drmyshottyizsik: Why would you not read what new things happened? What if you accidentally cast a hammer vote thinking that it was an L-2 vote? Besides, the claim was the first post posted today, which means you should have read it.

lol... This game is actually pretty interesting since the idea of any RVS got thrown out the window as soon as the game started.

[Elleran]

WARNING! WARNING!

Scum

Village Idiot detected!

Seriously though, wtf. I don't even know how to respond to such blatant excuses, scrambling, and lies. At first I thought, "it's scummy," then I was like, "nah, it's just a VI." But really it's not just VI ... it's stupid scummy.

If he is a VI, then we should not be lynching him right now. If by the end of the day, the read on drmyshottyizsik is solidified as a VI, then as the town and scum both have the responsibility to kill him. Thus, if drmyshottyizsik is still alive by the next turn, I saw we lynch him then.

[AlmasterGM]

VI's are vigbait. Or D2/3 if there's no Vig.

[Elleran]

True.. We'll give scums 2 turns to shoot the VI. I don't think vig (if he/she exists) should shoot the first turn though. Not shooting will force the scums to shoot the VI for their own safety.

[Kid Know Nothing]

Wow, I'm sorry. But voting without even reading the thread?

Really? I mean... Really?

Hello everyone, and this is certainly an interesting twist to a game. Straight to discussion. I think I actually prefer it this way. Anyways. The claim to me is odd, though I'm admittedly not used to PGO's in forum mafia, mostly EM (and game play and strategy between the two are different for obvious reasons.) However, the claim assumes a lot. Especially at the beginning of the day. Waiting it out and seeing if there is any real serious interest built on you toward the end of the day would have made more sense to me.

Shotty, claiming as PGO could save the town potential pro-town deaths. Do you believe that outweighs the cost of a mafia kill?

Could we get links to the games where: a.)Hoopla gambited with the miller claim and b.)AGar convinced town that a claimed role was a gambit?

[AlmasterGM]

True.. We'll give scums 2 turns to shoot the VI. I don't think vig (if he/she exists) should shoot the first turn though. Not shooting will force the scums to shoot the VI for their own safety.

Uhh, no. If there's a Vig, he should be shooting drmyshottyizsik in the face at the earliest opportunity.

...soooo, any chance of a one-shot day vig?

[Espeonage]

VOTECOUNT

4 -

Hoopla

- AGar, Vel-Rahn Koon, AlmasterGM, drmyshottyizsik (L-3)
2 -

drmyshottyizsik

- ConfidAnon, Zachrulez (L-5)

Not Voting - redtail896, Hoopla, Good and Honest, gonnano, Elleran, Kid Know Nothing

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

[Hoopla]

I'm also in the Shotty is VI camp, I don't know exactly what to do with him, but he definitely needs to lift his game. Notably, over the last page or so, we're starting to have a real swing towards this player without the representation of votes for him. Gunning for VI-blood is usually a safe place for scum to reside their vote because it's something that cannot realistically be challenged. Something scum love. More over, it's easy to tell if a VI/lurker is scum just by the way the rest of the town deals it. It's early still, but I'm really pleased with the information we have generated. Hopefully the wagon on myself falls away soon though, because it is a real 1911 trigger job.

A couple of questions I need to ask;

Shotty;

did you genuinely vote randomly, coming into the game? I find it hard to believe of all people you somehow got lucky and voted the one player with a bandwagon on her. I think it's likelier that you're lying than this 1/11 chance happening.

AGar;

you seem to be finding it difficult to find any town motivation for my claim, jumping to hasty conclusions. Hypothetically speaking, how would you have played the PGO if you were dealt that hand?

[AGar]

.

AGar;

you seem to be finding it difficult to find any town motivation for my claim, jumping to hasty conclusions. Hypothetically speaking, how would you have played the PGO if you were dealt that hand?

I already told you. I would have waited until late in the day, if not twilight and mentioned it.

I can find town motivation for the claim. But the past meta makes it hard to believe that it is truly town motivation that caused you in particular to make the claim.

[AGar]

Oh and KKN -

Game where Hoopla fake-claimed miller - http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13130
Game where my scumbuddy and I pushed that a claim was a gambit - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=14341

[drmyshottyizsik]

Shotty;

did you genuinely vote randomly, coming into the game? I find it hard to believe of all people you somehow got lucky and voted the one player with a bandwagon on her. I think it's likelier that you're lying than this 1/11 chance happening.

I voted at the beginning randomly. I had no idea there would be a band waggon going, personally I really like RVS's so i thought i would get one going, but what most of y'all think I'm saying about this is that I submitted and then failed to read the 40 other posts before mine, but what happened was I submitted it and it must have been delayed for x amount of time, and then i went to work. So when I submitted it there were no other posts after it yet.

[redtail896]

True.. We'll give scums 2 turns to shoot the VI. I don't think vig (if he/she exists) should shoot the first turn though. Not shooting will force the scums to shoot the VI for their own safety.

Uhh, no. If there's a Vig, he should be shooting drmyshottyizsik in the face at the earliest opportunity.

...soooo, any chance of a one-shot day vig?

Wait, but if you think shotty is the VI, then why do you want him shot? Do you think he's scum?

I voted at the beginning randomly. I had no idea there would be a band waggon going, personally I really like RVS's so i thought i would get one going, but what most of y'all think I'm saying about this is that I submitted and then failed to read the 40 other posts before mine, but what happened was I submitted it and it must have been delayed for x amount of time, and then i went to work. So when I submitted it there were no other posts after it yet.

Hoopla's claim was the first thing posted after the mod opened up D1 discussion. So what you're telling us is that, in the 3h 21m between discussion opening and Hoopla's claim, you posted a random vote on Hoopla, your computer took ~12 hours to process this request, the forum didn't show the intervening posts, and you're keeping your vote there because you think Hoopla was being dumb.

I don't mean to be rude, but do you understand why people are suspicious of this?

[Zachrulez]

Shotty;

did you genuinely vote randomly, coming into the game? I find it hard to believe of all people you somehow got lucky and voted the one player with a bandwagon on her. I think it's likelier that you're lying than this 1/11 chance happening.

I voted at the beginning randomly. I had no idea there would be a band waggon going, personally I really like RVS's so i thought i would get one going, but what most of y'all think I'm saying about this is that I submitted and then failed to read the 40 other posts before mine, but what happened was I submitted it and it must have been delayed for x amount of time, and then i went to work. So when I submitted it there were no other posts after it yet.

I find that hard to believe.

[ConfidAnon]

I don't mind the slow computer excuse . . . it's too outrageous to be a lie, I think.

But ignoring the post? That's fail.

VI, probably. Scum,

maybe

. I say that loosely.

Unvote: shotty
Vote: gonanno

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Congratulations shotty for derailing a perfectly good bandwagon.

I still don't like Hoopla's posts regarding the gambit AGar brought up. My vote is on Hoopla not because of the claim - I have no experience with PGOs, so if more than one or two people are saying that you claim on Day 1 as a PGO then I have to believe it. I also don't know whether claiming later in the day is the better idea or not. It seems like no matter when the claim is made it's going to generate a lot of discussion, because you have to figure out what to do with the player slot.

My problem lies in Hoopla's response to AGar's post 21. Once AGar brought up the game where you were a miller, it enabled you to tell us that you remembered X, Y, and Z about that game with no way for us to verify any of it. You've pretty much been given a pass because of it, and nothing you can say about that game and what you do/don't remember is going to be viable as defense material, at least not in my eyes. We're not able to crawl inside your head and see what you actually do remember. If AGar hadn't brought it up there's no reason to think that you'd have brought it up either. If you remember your games as well as you say you do, and "you knew he was going to bring this up" (you foresaw the possibility of this being an issue),

then you should have mentioned that game in your opening post where you claimed to cut off this line of questioning from the get-go.

All your rebuttal towards AGar does not appear to be Town motivated by this - it looks like scum-driven defense.

Now with your latest posts you're just assuming that since shotty decided to be a VI that we're suddenly going to shift attention away from you? I don't like it. I'm leaving my vote where it is for now since I don't have anything better. The claim itself is not a reason for a lynch, but the rest of it gives me pause. If Hoopla wants to convince me that she's really a PGO and not fake-claiming I want to see an abnormally large amount of scumhunting. So far all I've seen is defensiveness and a weak poke at shotty for his poor play.

@gonnano, post 36: Yes this could be AGar trying to gambit a lynch for Hoopla. However, I think that it's too early in the game for this to be effective.

Posts 63 and 64 have me considering a vote switch to shotty. I don't like the lack of reading comprehension and he's contradicted himself more times since his first post than I would have thought is humanly possible. Shotty, I can see that this is your first game on-site, but I agree with Hoopla - you need to step up your game QUICKLY. I also agree with Zach's assertion that there's no way you did NOT know that you were voting for someone who already had 3 votes on him. Putting someone at L-3 isn't horribly bad, but your reactions to all the various questions concerning that post have been absolutely atrocious.

[ConfidAnon]

If Hoopla wants to convince me that she's really a PGO and not fake-claiming I want to see an abnormally large amount of scumhunting. So far all I've seen is defensiveness and a weak poke at shotty for his poor play.

Why would you flat out tell someone what needs to happen in order for you to think they are Town?

This bothers me.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

How is Hoopla going to fake scumhunting? It's the one thing that can't be faked for extended periods of time. If Hoopla is scum, her "scumhunting" will work against her in later days.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

G & H, post NAO please. I see you!!

I'd like to hear your thoughts on shotty's play as well as Hoopla's argument with AGar. I don't care about the original actions (the claim and the vote) because I don't really consider either of them to be particularly bad. I want to hear your feelings on the follow-up.

[Good and Honest]

Hello, fellow townspeople!

This is my first Mini Normal game. It will be very interesting for me to experience how it differs from Newbie games...

There is something REALLY IMPORTANT that I must announce from the start - I have a certain playstyle which differs from what you might expect to see in a game of Mafia. My playstyle can be characterized by my username - it's Good and Honest. To better understand what I mean, I strongly suggest that you look at my first game on this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14309

You don't have to read everything - I'm lynched very quickly during Day 1 so you can concentrate on my several posts there, which explain in detail what my playstyle is going to be in a game of Mafia. Of course, you're not obliged to look at that game but then you might wonder why I do (or don't do) certain things in our current game. In any case, I'll gladly answer any questions you might have in that regard.

drmyshottyizsik, isn't it funny that we're participating in two games at the same time?

Hoopla, I waited for each other player to post so you could get reactions to your claim. I hope you won't mind that I'll speak now.

In case you are wondering what Hoopla is doing, look at Mini 973 (including the post-game comments). Hoopla, well done for making that game so memorable! By the way, you'll notice that in my first game, which I linked to, yabbaguy and I commented on Mini 973 in the post-game comments!

AGar and gonnano, I had also read Mini 992 where you both participated - that was another very interesting game!

Vel-Rahn Koon, I know that you don't participate in many games so I'm glad I'm able to play with you! Don't worry, I'll comment more on the things you ask later, for now I just wanted to make the revelation about Hoopla.

I really hope you'll all enjoy this game!

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, I waited for each other player to post so you could get reactions to your claim. I hope you won't mind that I'll speak now.

In case you are wondering what Hoopla is doing, look at Mini 973 (including the post-game comments). Hoopla, well done for making that game so memorable! By the way, you'll notice that in my first game, which I linked to, yabbaguy and I commented on Mini 973 in the post-game comments!

Not at all. That was very astute play to leave it this long - you could have come swashbuckling in, linking this game before anyone took the bait, but you didn't. And you have timed your play perfectly.

I hereby unclaim PGO

.

For those perplexed by this tactic, let me reassure you it was a deliberate ploy to skip the RVS and extract information from the game early. I have loose philosophies revolving around scum needing to be unsettled to get genuine reactions, and I think early roleclaims are one way of doing this. The beauty of PGO claims are they have different effects on either alignment, causing it to be rich with juicy information. This role is extremely damaging to scum if the claim is widely believed (see the game G&H talks about), as it is essentially an innocent player scum can't remove. Because of this, scum and town have different motivations to dealing with the claim. Town players will be trying to gauge whether it is true or not, whilst scum have a vested interest in ensuring the player doesn't get thought of as town, and if possible, put some suspicion on them. They are two very different goals, and even if they are subconcious, many of these posts are dripping with clues, ripe for analysis.

I will be doing some follow-up posts shortly on what we have seen so far, but if anyone has any questions about this play, let them be spoken now.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Interesting. Two Questions:

G&H: How positive are you that Hoopla's not pulling a gambit?

Hoopla: Why should this explanation be any more believable than what you came up with in regards to AGar's arguments against you?

[redtail896]

So, I have a really dumb question that immediately popped into my mind upon reading you previous post Hoopla. Why did you unclaim?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla: Why should this explanation be any more believable than what you came up with in regards to AGar's arguments against you?

I'm unclaiming PGO. I am not a PGO. I half-expected someone not to believe this was my intention afterward, so I was careful to leave a breadcrumb, showing it wasn't a real claim. Here;

Why make the claim now? I think that's a waste of a potential Town NK. Best case scenario is that you're now guaranteed to be in LyLo with the last Mafia and an unconfirmed Townie who've cross-voted and you have to make the final decision.

Really, I had no choice.

J

ust think if I left it, and was responsible for one or two town PR deaths?

O

f course, there is the chance of hitting scum if I can play well enough to attract the night kill.

K

nowing me, I'd be likelier to attract doctors and investigation roles if I didn't claim, though.

E

ver played with a PGO before, Vel? What are your current thoughts about how I should be treated?

The first letter of each sentence (well, minus the first one). My reasons as previously stated were my intentions, and this breadcrumb at the time of my claim should show my mindset, and that it was deliberate.