Mini 1705: Game Over

Firebringer · Post Post #1500 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:39 am

scum played this well, except for Samx who I think everyone just didn't pay attention to because there was so much other stuff happening like TvTs and me and banana fight.

Ether · Post Post #1501 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:42 am

Can you find any examples of scum actually claiming masons? Masons don't behave anything like mafia do, and they're pretty much never lynched.

Firebringer · Post Post #1502 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:46 am

In post 1501, Ether wrote:Can you find any examples of scum actually claiming masons? Masons don't behave anything like mafia do, and they're pretty much never lynched.

My homesite I have seen it happen.
So, yes. You can make work.
I would claim mason in a heartbeat too.

Ether · Post Post #1503 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:51 am

You can try. I think it would backfire for you.

And yeah, you can find more information about Normal setups here. The roles can be found here (although roles not on that page are possible, with limits and caveats). We pretty much assume that everyone knows this information, or at least enough people to correct the ones who don't. Another game just ended with a scum win that was partially caused by confusion over what Rolestoppers are, though. So I'm starting to think we should put this in a more obvious place.

BananaCucho · Post Post #1504 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:52 am

lol Fire

When Barcode claimed Mason my heart sank. I tried to keep open the possibility of voting Duppin or Kling and hammering either, but this looked to kill the chance of a Duppin mislynch.

There were two times that Fire put both Kling and Duppin at L-1 for like 45 minutes with both Sam and Gale not being around to hammer that made me go crazy. First time it happened, Gale and SamX posted minutes after but didn't stick around or the game could've ended before the mason claims.

Fire, srsly remember Charmanders Revenge? You and Darkness wuickhammered the early town vote. Town shouldn't vote in LYLO until a decision has been made lol

BananaCucho · Post Post #1505 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:53 am

Loved the confusion this game. Played up the chaos, pushed the craziness, and kept the unreasonable players alive. Could have been risky but it worked out!

Firebringer · Post Post #1506 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:03 am

Like I said at start of day I am the LVP this game.
I kinda just wanted game over.
Scum played this well, me and some other town were awful lol.

BananaCucho · Post Post #1507 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:05 am

In post 1506, Firebringer wrote:Like I said at start of day I am the LVP this game.
I kinda just wanted game over.
Scum played this well, me and some other town were awful lol.

You weren't the LVP honestly.

mastin2 · Post Post #1508 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:52 am

In post 1476, Firebringer wrote:I looked at other Normal games and when they had masons they also had 2 other Power roles.
Are you serious that all we had was masons and Neopolitian?

Neapolitans are a god-tiered role.

Against three goons (most minis have a scum PR; this one did not--if you searched those same minis with those four PRs, you'll find near-universally a scum PR in the mix), you had two players confirmed town from the get-go, and an investigative role where every not-vanilla result save for the conftown masons was a guilty and each vanilla result was MORE powerful than a cop result. (Not less.)

There was even concern that with enough innocent investigations, the town would have the scum nailed by POE. Imagine getting so much as two innocents: that's four conftown players plus the investigator themselves as a fifth.

Perhaps not game-endingly powerful, but fairly close.

Or in short, what Ether said.

In post 1498, Firebringer wrote:Masons are never confirmed except by each other so that's so false it hurts. Any scum team could claim masons. It is not a good role.

You hold this stance now, but with experience, you will realize that on mafiascum, masons means masons.

Outside of players like kuribo, Fate, and DGB (I think they're responsible for the only two mason fakeclaims ever, and both times in a theme game where it backfired stupendously), there's basically never been a mason fakeclaim by scum except in an open setup specifically designed for that. (What's it called, friends and enemies? I'm not well-versed in opens.) Most of the time, when players claim mason, they are taken at face value. Because that's what site meta is. A player doubting masons never enters the minds of a moderator or setup reviewer, because it's something we just never see. And for good reason--if a mason were to be lynched, then their partner gets killed off, making most people not want to lynch masons; if a scum fakeclaiming mason gets lynched, their scumbuddy gets lynched too which in a smaller game especially is VERY bad for them, and too large a risk 95% of the time. (Especially since there's a risk of real masons existing. Like in one of the mason fakeclaim examples above: scum claimed masons, were counterclaimed by the actual masons, actual mason got lynched...and was a venge-mason, killing the fakeclaiming mason.)

Ether · Post Post #1509 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:57 am

I wouldn't say god-tiered. Neapolitans are double-edged; they can out power roles and tell scum who to kill, and positive results on scum aren't the same as guilties at all. This is a closed setup, and scum can still get out of a positive result with a fakeclaim.

They're still very powerful, though.

TheWorst · Post Post #1510 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:46 am

I usually like to leave comments on everyone who played. Since I only appeared on Day 1, I probably don't have as much to say as I would've.
Even people who got replaced gets one. Besides Aeronaut, literally one post.

Spoiler: The Game

mastin2 · Post Post #1511 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:57 am

Well, honestly, I didn't watch too closely. I only loosely followed the game, so I wouldn't be able to give the same feedback that a player or moderator would.

I think that overall, the scum played a very good game, and actually followed my model of nightkilling players: kill whoever is a threat, and don't worry about how it'll look, or if you're killing a role or not. They killed competent town players with the potential to figure out the game, leaving players who while not necessarily incompetent, were very much lacking cohesiveness: the scum were working really well together, but the living town players were left going in every which direction.

I think that, overall, the town didn't necessarily play a bad game, but were put at a severe disadvantage because of the above. Salamance's gambit with claiming rolecop was an interesting move that may have kept him from being nightkilled (a smart move for a cop-variant role), but backfired because he ended up lynched and people thought he actually

was

one. Not trusting the masons was another misstep, and the town was very much overall throughout the game too vote-happy, too lynch-happy. Their sources of information got garbled because of a lack of clarity. It wasn't really any individual player who was at fault; the entire town was basically the same way, with those showing the least number of these characteristics ending up nightkilled. (Save Constantine, who was killed to get rid of conftown in lylo.)

Klingoncelt · Post Post #1512 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:48 pm

In post 1483, BananaCucho wrote:
In post 1481, Firebringer wrote:
In post 1479, BananaCucho wrote:Omg here goes Fire again.

We had 3 goons. 100% balanced.

The game disagrees.
None of you got lynched.
It wasn't even 'close'

That has nothing to do with the roles but everything to do with town being unreasonable

We killed TheWorst for being reasonable. We eventually started keeping the most unreasonable players around even though you were all voting together for the longest time

Kling was the LYLO set up lynch for daaaaaays

I guess I'm honored, lol.

Yeah, that's optimal Scum play, kill off the good ones, keep the wifomers alive.

My big mistake was expecting this to be a standard Matrix setup, but it's more like Friends and Enemies.

Town could have used a stronger Cop, or maybe add in a 3rd Mason. We were underpowered.

Salamence should have been clear with her results. The self-hammer was tragic.

Klingoncelt · Post Post #1513 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:55 pm

In post 1489, Not_Mafia wrote:General cluelessness about normal games plagued the game, there was talk of jesters at one point, if town had slowed down in lylo and gotten their bearings, I think the game would have become more of a toss-up.

Modding wasn't up to my usual standards, I recently started a very hectic job, I hope you all enjoyed the game

I did indeed, thanks for hosting!

St Constantine the Hermit · Post Post #1514 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:59 pm

Gale, my advice to you is to stop wall posting. It is the only way to guarantee a wagon on yourself 100% of the time

St Constantine the Hermit · Post Post #1515 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:03 pm

^ I mean that too. I have a 90% kill rate hitting scum for wall posting, and others apparently feel the same way since I have never seen a wall poster go without at least one vote on them any given day.

Klingoncelt · Post Post #1516 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:06 pm

In post 1510, TheWorst wrote:I usually like to leave comments on everyone who played. Since I only appeared on Day 1, I probably don't have as much to say as I would've.
Even people who got replaced gets one. Besides Aeronaut, literally one post.

Spoiler: The Game
St Constantine the Hermit
- You play odd, but since you're a VT it ain't a big deal. Spot on with some of your scum reads. Sporadic as hell, if you got to lylo you would've cause problems with mafia I believe. Which is why you were killed as well.

juckter
- Wish he didn't disappear, would've been nice to see him play.

Bacde
- pls don't hammer too quickly. I do like your playstyle though, I knew why you townread me and it made sense. Don't tunnel too hard though, it ended up costing town a lynch.

duppin
- Was a bit skeptical of you, but you were pretty well-reasoned. I think you could've worked independently of Bacde a bit more though, do your own thing.

Salamence20
- Oh man, what can I say? Don't self-vote as a PR? Try to understand what your role is? I dunno. You had moments of brilliance, like the fakeclaim that you probably didn't mean to do, but the self-vote wasn't one of them. Embrace your leadership more!

Yukari
- Your playstyle was pretty good at first, then you seemed to go off course by lynching Ciara. You're a pretty strong townie though,
which is why you got killed.

Cthulhu Dreaming
- Haha, I wish you stayed in. You were an interesting and mysterious player. Hope you recovered well from your sickness!

Firebringer
- I think it's clear you weren't on your best game. But to be honest, you did get me to suspect Banana, so there's that! Don't get bothered by players like Banana, do your own thing. Don't ignore people, but at the same time don't escalate the situation.

SamX
- I recognized your buddy to be honest, but I think my idea that you're a newbie made me think you were town. Play a newbie game! The Newbie queue needs more newbies!

BananaCucho
- Out of all the scum, I suspected you the most because of your buddy buddy attitude towards me. It was also pretty clear you were trying to take over the game near the end. Screw you! Give me my life back!
It'd be fun to play with you as townie for real, you got that right.

Klingoncelt
- I did find you the scummiest out of all the town. First you suspected me, and you proceed to vote third on every town mislynch, only to get mislynched yourself! The Sala wagon ended up being your downfall. Still, you thought outside the box and I commend you for that.

Gale Wing Srock
- Your wall-posting caught me off guard, I didn't suspect you because of that. Your reasoning
was pretty otherwise weak though (expected because, well, you're scum), next time I see you, better watch out!
Also just realized you were defending SamX, don't do that as scum. It flew past my head since I honestly didn't think about the SamX vote too much.

eventi
- Oh eventi, you didn't deserve the lynch on you. I feel partially to blame for it, I allowed it to happen under the pressure of time. Sala was leading the wagon though, so technically it was the right move. Don't be sarcastic all the time though! Your attitude got you lynched.

Ciara24
Your inactivity got you lynched, pretty much. I was hoping for more of you, to be honest, but we all have our reasons for inactivity.

Ether, Mastin2
- Hope you were entertained! Wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on the game as well.

Not_Mafia
Thanks for modding and for not banning me for talking about an ongoing game!

Excellent analysis - thanks!

Gale Wing Srock · Post Post #1517 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:10 pm

I agree, thanks for the analysis, feedback and advice guys. Will keep them in mind. And Cheers for a good game!

Yukari · Post Post #1518 (ISO) » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:35 am

Bah..
Why did we get NKed? Just curious cuz that's a first for us.

Yukari · Post Post #1519 (ISO) » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:42 am

Least we called fire and kling correctly. Did not intend to lynch ciara, was just pushing for info.

Yukari · Post Post #1520 (ISO) » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:45 am

Also, wasn't kidding about the glass.. shit hurt.. >,> finally got to the doc and they did find some still in there to remove.. so all good now. There was a framed painting just leaning against the wall, tripped and fell into it elbow first n sliced us up right below the elbow.
<,<

Klingoncelt · Post Post #1521 (ISO) » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:32 pm

In post 1520, Yukari wrote:Also, wasn't kidding about the glass.. shit hurt.. >,> finally got to the doc and they did find some still in there to remove.. so all good now. There was a framed painting just leaning against the wall, tripped and fell into it elbow first n sliced us up right below the elbow.
<,<

I'm glad to hear there's no permanent damage.

kuribo · Post Post #1522 (ISO) » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:51 pm

In post 1508, mastin2 wrote:
In post 1476, Firebringer wrote:I looked at other Normal games and when they had masons they also had 2 other Power roles.
Are you serious that all we had was masons and Neopolitian?
Neapolitans are a god-tiered role.

Against three goons (most minis have a scum PR; this one did not--if you searched those same minis with those four PRs, you'll find near-universally a scum PR in the mix), you had two players confirmed town from the get-go, and an investigative role where every not-vanilla result save for the conftown masons was a guilty and each vanilla result was MORE powerful than a cop result. (Not less.)

There was even concern that with enough innocent investigations, the town would have the scum nailed by POE. Imagine getting so much as two innocents: that's four conftown players plus the investigator themselves as a fifth.

Perhaps not game-endingly powerful, but fairly close.

Or in short, what Ether said.

In post 1498, Firebringer wrote:Masons are never confirmed except by each other so that's so false it hurts. Any scum team could claim masons. It is not a good role.
You hold this stance now, but with experience, you will realize that on mafiascum, masons means masons.

Outside of players like kuribo, Fate, and DGB (I think they're responsible for the only two mason fakeclaims ever, and both times in a theme game where it backfired stupendously), there's basically never been a mason fakeclaim by scum except in an open setup specifically designed for that. (What's it called, friends and enemies? I'm not well-versed in opens.) Most of the time, when players claim mason, they are taken at face value. Because that's what site meta is. A player doubting masons never enters the minds of a moderator or setup reviewer, because it's something we just never see. And for good reason--if a mason were to be lynched, then their partner gets killed off, making most people not want to lynch masons; if a scum fakeclaiming mason gets lynched, their scumbuddy gets lynched too which in a smaller game especially is VERY bad for them, and too large a risk 95% of the time. (Especially since there's a risk of real masons existing. Like in one of the mason fakeclaim examples above: scum claimed masons, were counterclaimed by the actual masons, actual mason got lynched...and was a venge-mason, killing the fakeclaiming mason.)

It's worse than that. DGB and I *counterclaimed* masons as scum, and though they were lovers, they were also vengeful. They shot DGB, and I was left to die by lynch the next day

We did once fake masons with a random player as town, (me + DGB + Fate in the original Serene) but that was less of a strategy and more like LOLSerene. We contemplated the fact that we had done that, considering the three of us were pretty much the people that were known to have fake claimed masons

I'm fairly certain DGB once got away with it and I know for a fact Fate did, but it takes a certain amount of charisma to pull it off. And even with charisma, it's tough

BananaCucho · Post Post #1523 (ISO) » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:59 pm

In post 1518, Yukari wrote:Bah..
Why did we get NKed? Just curious cuz that's a first for us.

We were gonna kill Barcode and switched at last second. Was kinda a gut feeling move but you also didn't fit into the narrative we were pushing.

Yukari · Post Post #1524 (ISO) » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:01 pm

In post 1523, BananaCucho wrote:
In post 1518, Yukari wrote:Bah..
Why did we get NKed? Just curious cuz that's a first for us.

We were gonna kill Barcode and switched at last second. Was kinda a gut feeling move but you also didn't fit into the narrative we were pushing.

K