Mini 1758: Game Over

tictac · Post Post #1700 (ISO) » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:10 pm

Will say that going for Loki was

really

towny of you. Would have been really, really easy for ya to lynch me if ya were scum.
Still, due diligence compels.

tictac · Post Post #1701 (ISO) » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:21 pm

Oh, could ya make a case on Loki, please?

@Loki: could ya make a case on farmer?

tictac · Post Post #1702 (ISO) » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:24 pm

@Loki
No reaction to recent events?

Lokiben · Post Post #1703 (ISO) » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:36 pm

Since 36 minutes ago? Just general exasperation and frustration. I'd rather convince farmer to vote you, but he's unwilling to engage me so bah. I guess I should be investigating him anyway in case my conviction in your flip is hurt by confirmation bias.

tictac · Post Post #1704 (ISO) » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:42 pm

@Loki
If I was scum I would have won already.
How are you still thinking it's a possibility?

Lokiben · Post Post #1705 (ISO) » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:54 pm

...I wasn't thinking. Oh. OH.

Lokiben · Post Post #1706 (ISO) » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:06 pm

Yeah, I've never been in a situation like this before. That was stupid for me. Reevaluating.

Lokiben · Post Post #1707 (ISO) » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:26 pm

So I've got some serious case building and soul searching to do, and school work to boot. Tomorrow, I will plead my case.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1708 (ISO) » Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:37 pm

I hear a tiger-rabbit wants a case on Loki. Sink your teeth into this one:

Exhibit A:

333

The first part of this post is a case against Elyse, his primary "scumread". Then there's a part where he defends UTL's lurking. Finally he calls out a possible "slip" by camn and FoSes CKD.

In the first part, Loki makes it look like he's pushing a primary scumread so that he can be seen to be doing something. In the third part, he scumreads his partners for the distancing, but not in a way that really draws heat on either.

Also of note is that the "slip" he points out would actually exonerate camn if you had flipped town, which he may have been preparing for since your wagon was tied for the largest at the time.

Exhibit B:

866

This one I admit may just be me finding it scummy because I now know he's scum. But at the time of this post, the elephant in the room was the furor over CKD's mason uncovering. Loki gives CKD a slap on the wrist for something CKD said back on Day 1, but then seems hesitant to give his opinion on the big topic of the day. He manages to get plenty of hedging into this post, saying "I don't think the case against ckd is really all that concrete" but then "If there's one post that ultimately changes my mind, it might be this one." (meaning "I don't scumread CKD now, but I'm just leaving this here as an excuse in case it becomes in my interests to do so later.")

Exhibit C:

1065 through 1075

This was at the beginning of Day 3. Note the sequence of events: Loki comes in and votes Elyse. Then Zulfy votes Elyse. Then CKD comes in and chastises Loki exclusively in 1070 and 1071, and only brings in Zulfy when he butts himself in. Then in 1075 he turns to everyone and declares them obvtown because the real scum would've known about the masons.

Here's what I think happened: CKD and Loki planned to open Day 3 like this, since the result ended up giving Loki a bunch of towncred without any overt buddying. The whole sequence between the two of them was scripted, but, despite Zulfy having been the more recent voter of Elyse when CKD posted, CKD initially only mentions Loki. Why? Because Zulfy wasn't in the script.

Exhibit D:

1696 and 1703

These are the two weird posts he made today. It could be because he's never been in 3p Lylo before (but then again, neither have I) but his posts here seem to come from an informed perspective.

In 1696, his reaction to my vote on him is to vote me. His prior posts (specifically, 1655, 1676, and 1694) suggest that he thought you were scum. So why then is his reaction to vote me instead of beseeching me to come to my senses and remove the vote?

1703 is the one where he indicated that it hadn't occurred to him that you were conftown. Again, it might be because of inexperience, but this mistake is certainly easier to make if you already know that both of the other two guys are town.

Exhibit E:

For what it's worth, the opinions of our peers shortly before they died:

Spoiler: RC (and, implicitly, Elyse as well)

Spoiler: pisskop

Spoiler: Zulfy

So there you have it. In addition to this, I'll note about Loki a pattern of low-visibility, especially on the vote counts. It could possibly be a playstyle thing, but if so it'd be a convenient playstyle to skirt by without attracting suspicion.

tictac · Post Post #1709 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:11 am

Spoiler: votes+comments

@farmer Why no vote for CKD in 771, 1327 and 1418? If ya had a scumread on UTL from 818, why not push it before 1327?

@Loki

In post 56, Lokiben wrote: I have six or eight completed FM games under my belt from elsewhere on the web.

Can I see these?
I'm worried that you may be acting more new than you are.

tictac · Post Post #1710 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:13 am

In post 1708, a plain farmer wrote:I hear a tiger-rabbit wants a case on Loki. Sink your teeth into this one:

Exhibit A:

333

The first part of this post is a case against Elyse, his primary "scumread". Then there's a part where he defends UTL's lurking. Finally he calls out a possible "slip" by camn and FoSes CKD.

In the first part, Loki makes it look like he's pushing a primary scumread so that he can be seen to be doing something. In the third part, he scumreads his partners for the distancing, but not in a way that really draws heat on either.

Well he hasn't really drawn heat on anyone this game. He could just be bad at convincing people.
Both of them as secondary scumreads this early in the game does strech my suspension of disbelief a bit.

Also of note is that the "slip" he points out would actually exonerate camn if you had flipped town, which he may have been preparing for since your wagon was tied for the largest at the time.

valid

Exhibit B:

866

This one I admit may just be me finding it scummy because I now know he's scum. But at the time of this post, the elephant in the room was the furor over CKD's mason uncovering. Loki gives CKD a slap on the wrist for something CKD said back on Day 1, but then seems hesitant to give his opinion on the big topic of the day. He manages to get plenty of hedging into this post, saying "I don't think the case against ckd is really all that concrete" but then "If there's one post that ultimately changes my mind, it might be this one." (meaning "I don't scumread CKD now, but I'm just leaving this here as an excuse in case it becomes in my interests to do so later.")

I'll give ya avoiding the issue of mason-digging. Not sure about the hedging.

Exhibit C:

1065 through 1075

This was at the beginning of Day 3. Note the sequence of events: Loki comes in and votes Elyse. Then Zulfy votes Elyse. Then CKD comes in and chastises Loki exclusively in 1070 and 1071, and only brings in Zulfy when he butts himself in. Then in 1075 he turns to everyone and declares them obvtown because the real scum would've known about the masons.

Here's what I think happened: CKD and Loki planned to open Day 3 like this, since the result ended up giving Loki a bunch of towncred without any overt buddying. The whole sequence between the two of them was scripted, but, despite Zulfy having been the more recent voter of Elyse when CKD posted, CKD initially only mentions Loki. Why? Because Zulfy wasn't in the script.

This I agree with.
Could be that CKD thought it would be caught anyway, and wanted to wifom the issue of two players looking too town thou.

Exhibit D:

1696 and 1703

These are the two weird posts he made today. It could be because he's never been in 3p Lylo before (but then again, neither have I) but his posts here seem to come from an informed perspective.

In 1696, his reaction to my vote on him is to vote me. His prior posts (specifically, 1655, 1676, and 1694) suggest that he thought you were scum. So why then is his reaction to vote me instead of beseeching me to come to my senses and remove the vote?

Ya. The vote would make sense if he thought ya were declaring scum by voting, but doesn't really fit with him continuing to scumread me.

1703 is the one where he indicated that it hadn't occurred to him that you were conftown. Again, it might be because of inexperience, but this mistake is certainly easier to make if you already know that both of the other two guys are town.

Agreed

Exhibit E:

For what it's worth, the opinions of our peers shortly before they died:

Spoiler: RC (and, implicitly, Elyse as well)
In post 1173, Elyse wrote:
In post 1170, Lokiben wrote:I meant to add, did RC ever give any reasons for scumread me, Elyse? Because he didn't in the thread. -_-

He said that your case on me was storytelling instead of scumhunting and you pointed out scummy things camn did but never followed up.

That's a misrep.
1101 1121, 1122
RC and Elyse were scumreading ya both. I'd say Elyse was leaning towards you a bit more.

Spoiler: pisskop
In post 1654, pisskop wrote:Im fine killing zulf.

But who tomorrow if he is town? An dont say me because I would have no reason to even bring up ckd.

In post 1667, pisskop wrote:loki is my backup choice.

If its a binary descision between tictac and loki guess where Id go?

It is potentially ambiguous if "loki" in 1667 is being used as pk's answer to his own question from 1654, but that's the interpretation I hold.

It's pretty ambiguous, what he meant, so I'm gonna disregard it. 1658 was more clear.

In post 1658, pisskop wrote:I agree on apf

That has weight. Pisskop is pretty experienced.

Zulfy wrote:

In post 1651, Zulfy wrote:Farmers sure as hell not scum, I hammered two scum, its either you or Loki. Probs Loki.

But just so I don't misrep him, he did say this:

In post 1662, Zulfy wrote:Pk or tictac. Probs tictac

Getting two of the three of us right isn't bad.

Zulf did hammer two scum, but he did spend enough time pushing me & Elyse that I'm not giving his reads a huge amount of weight.

So there you have it. In addition to this, I'll note about Loki a pattern of low-visibility, especially on the vote counts. It could possibly be a playstyle thing, but if so it'd be a convenient playstyle to skirt by without attracting suspicion.

Well it isn't really. He's gotten heat from it before.
It does make him hard to analyse late-game thou.

a plain farmer · Post Post #1711 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:25 am

In post 1709, tictac wrote:@farmer Why no vote for CKD in 771, 1327 and 1418?

Voting CKD in 771 would've put him at L-1, and we were still on the first real-life day of D2, so I wanted to make sure there wasn't a quickhammer. In 1327, I was still actually townreading CKD, since the scumminess I pointed out there did not sufficiently override the townread I had had on him since shortly after 771. This is the reason for not voting him in 1418 as well.

If ya had a scumread on UTL from 818, why not push it before 1327?

From that point on Day 2, I was reading UTL and Cakez as scum more-or-less equally. I voted UTL instead of Cakez since I didn't want UTL to fly under the radar, but I didn't want to intervene too much because Cakez was also getting wagoned and I would've liked his lynch as well. On D3, my reread made me think of SRMP as scummier than UTL, so he supplanted her position in my scumreads.

In post 1710, tictac wrote:
That's a misrep.
1101 1121, 1122
RC and Elyse were scumreading ya both. I'd say Elyse was leaning towards you a bit more.

Fair enough.

Lokiben · Post Post #1712 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:00 pm

I'm sorry to have to do this, but I'm still swamped, and will likely be tomorrow too. Nothing screamed scum!apf to me until he was confirmed just now, so I plan to do some serious research to support my case. Luckily, we're not pressed for time.

In the meantime, here are two games of mine:

This was my most recent game. It began after this game, and ended last week. I was a Citizen (VT). Cakez was the solo winner of this game, by the way.

This was my first ever game, and only complete game as scum. I was a Consort (Mafia Roleblocker). I've been mafia two other times. I replaced out early due to out-of-game issues in one, and replaced into the other about 24 hours before being endgamed.

ISOs can be found in the OPs. As I'm sure you'll notice, ToS has an incredibly different and, dare I say, less sophisticated, meta. Roles and abilities garner much more attention than here, and objective reasoning less so, but only to a certain extent. If you want to fully understand what is happening at all times in these games, here is a compilation of all thirty-something roles that can appear in a given game.

tictac · Post Post #1713 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:17 am

In post 1712, Lokiben wrote:I'm sorry to have to do this, but I'm still swamped, and will likely be tomorrow too. Nothing screamed scum!apf to me until he was confirmed just now, so I plan to do some serious research to support my case. Luckily, we're not pressed for time.

No worries. We got time.
I'm busy this weekend too, and the time I do have goes to reading.

@farmer Here's a theory about the no-kill, please poke holes in it:
You were widely townread and would have been a likely doc-target if there was a doc. If you are scum and think there might be a doc, it makes sense for you to no-kill to get conftowned by doc-save.

Performer · Post Post #1714 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:31 am

VOTE COUNT 7.01

Lokiben (1): a plain farmer
a plain farmer (1): Lokiben

No vote (1): tictac

With 3 players alive, it takes 2/3 votes to lynch.

For deadlines & notes, please refer to this post – post 3 !

a plain farmer · Post Post #1715 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:54 pm

In post 1713, tictac wrote:@farmer Here's a theory about the no-kill, please poke holes in it:
You were widely townread and would have been a likely doc-target if there was a doc. If you are scum and think there might be a doc, it makes sense for you to no-kill to get conftowned by doc-save.

There is a risk in this strategy, but first:

"If you are scum

and think there might be a doc

,"

In order for this to have happened, I'd have had to think there might be a doc, and prior to the no-kill, I wouldn't have had any reason to think that there were.

But if I did, I'd have the choice of not killing, or killing and going immediately to a 3p Lylo. If I don't kill and successfully predict the doc to have protected me, then he'd tell people I'm town and I'd have 3p Lylo wrapped up. But if you or Loki were the doc, you might have chosen pisskop, who, despite being arguably less townread than I, was more experienced (and perhaps less malleable from the perspective of the scum). Then he'd be just as conftowned as I would've been, and I'd probably have to kill the doc that night.

If I do submit a kill, then the same thing that made me the likely doc target would also have given me a big advantage in Lylo, so I could've forgone the risk and ended up in the same situation on D6 that we're in right now, except the deathbed professions of my towniness by Zulfy and pisskop would've been more fresh in people's minds.

Lokiben · Post Post #1716 (ISO) » Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:27 am

Ok.

Exhibit A: farmer's interactions with camn

and Exhibit B: farmer's self meta-ing

In post 296, a plain farmer wrote:
In post 272, tictac wrote:
In post 227, a plain farmer wrote:Some reads:

A reads-list in response to me pointing out that your play is different from 1380, where your early play was list heavy.
Looks more like you are correcting your play to match the earlier game, than an attempt to contribute.

I just wanted to make my opinions known. Also, I'll preemptively let everyone know that I'm an indecisive person, so changes in my reads should be considered null tells.

Camn seems like a townie.

Why?

I like her votes.

In post 299, camn wrote:
In post 296, a plain farmer wrote:I'll preemptively let everyone know that I'm an indecisive person, so changes in my reads should be considered null tells.

Huh.

Frankly, the first statement is pingy in its own right ("I just want to let everyone know in advance that I'm town in case I do something scummy."), but it's worse in context. apf's explanation for scumreading camn is barely an explanation. He's asked why he likes camn, and he says he likes her votes, as if that settles it. He doesn't explain why he likes the votes, which was obviously what you were digging for, tictac, when you posed him that question.

Then almost immediately, camn shoves him away for the same post in which he townreads camn. I propose apf was buddying with camn, and maybe did it a bit too blatantly or clumsily for camn's liking, and she subtly rejected him in that post.

In post 315, a plain farmer wrote:
@ camn

In post 299, camn wrote:
In post 296, a plain farmer wrote:I'll preemptively let everyone know that I'm an indecisive person, so changes in my reads should be considered null tells.

Huh.

I said that in hopes to minimize time wasted on town-on-town accusations.

"I said that so people wouldn't waste time scumreading me when I'm town."

In post 1064, a plain farmer wrote:

In post 992, a plain farmer wrote:Please don't lynch camn. This is the scummiest wagon of the game so far.

And here's where I lept in front of her wagon. Scum would not say this. Scum would not expend any of their political capital in this thread on such a minimalistic plea. Scum would either stay silent, or maybe try to build up a case in camn's favor.

Self-meta, again. This time, it's a terrible abuse of WIFOM. "I did something that scum wouldn't want to do because it's scummy." I guess he'd argue that he meant to say that his presented opinions were independent of his alignment, because scum would actually care about how their opinions reflected on them, but the confidence with which he likes to assert that he is town is overdone.

In post 1112, a plain farmer wrote:On the prospect of Zulfy scum, my gut tells me that camn would be more inclined to put her partners in the scum or null section of her reads.

Funny, because that's where apf and ckd both were.

Exhibit C: farmer waffling on ckd

apf on ckd through the ages:

Spoiler:

In post 227, a plain farmer wrote:Some reads:

CKD seems like a townie.

In post 358, a plain farmer wrote:

And to answer your question on CKD, he worries me a little bit, but my instinct is to punt on the issue of lurkers and come back to it D2.

In post 771, a plain farmer wrote:UNVOTE:

Welp, we have two weeks until the deadline. I say we go for a picnic.

And yes I am for lynching CKD. I thought he might have been a townie who made a blunder, but I have a hard time imagining a townie defending himself from these allegations by implying that RC's vote for him left him no recourse.

In post 818, a plain farmer wrote:I'm not as confident in my CKD scumread as I was last night. Prior to yesterday's outbreak, there's nothing in his ISO that pings my scumdar. And the more I think of his behavior, the less it becomes a question of "why would town do this" as opposed to "why would someone of any alignment do this?". His initial rolefishing and reaction to being voted is still scummy, but I'm OK with not lynching him today.

In post 872, a plain farmer wrote:CKD - scum-leaning - My position is unchanged from 818. I still don't like the initial rolefishing and the reaction to his vote, but he hasn't done anything else scummy. He hasn't been particularly townie either, though. I'd say he's 3rd scummiest in this game right now after SirCakez and UTL.

After this, apf never reads ckd directly for a while, but creates plenty of hypothetical scenarios around ckd tracking SirCakez, or being an obvious NK target, implying he believes ckd's claim. Then:

In post 1327, a plain farmer wrote:I actually find CKD's AtE hard to swallow. He's not actually under that much pressure. He seems to be getting worked up at only having had a little bit of push-back from the town against his tictac case. The deadline is still a while off. I'd actually characterize this town as open-minded and thoughtful by the standards of most of the other games I've seen. All this is to say that, as a supposed veteran, CKD should probably have seen worse, and his reaction is disproportionate to what's actually happened.

And yes, it is scummy.

In post 1426, a plain farmer wrote:Right now both pisskop and CKD are looking like good votes.

So apf has been all over the place with ckd throughout the game, always finding some new angle that overrides everything prior. Again, I find his earlier assertion that waffling is something that he does as town a hard sell. My interpretation is that apf figured the best way to avoid implication by association was neither to explicitly bus nor buddy ckd.

Miscelaneous:

In post 1569, a plain farmer wrote:It's a little worrying how the energy in the thread has died down after I slowed the momentum of the pisskop wagon. I understand we're still waiting on responses.

This post did feel off to me at the time, and when I questioned apf about it, his response didn't satisfy me. This feels like a towncred grab. The energy of the thread is an abstract concept that he avoids tying down to any player in particular but instead leaves as a general label for the atmosphere of the thread so he doesn't have to justify reading a specific player for it.

apf is good. His scumplay towards the end reminds me of the player that I idolize the most (someone from another forum), in that he really will stop at nothing to build his own towncred in MYLO. There was the ckd lynch, and there was the hesitance he demonstrated today with voting you, tictac. You could argue that it would have been easier for him to pile on my one man wagon of you, but that would have been riskier, since you could have plead your case and changed my mind. The fact is that apf is in no hurry to force a mislynch, because he knows that as long as he's being townread, there's no way he can lose. So what he's done, rather than gamble by rushing a lynch, is take his sweet time and ensure his longterm survival, since that's all he needs to win for his entire faction.

tictac · Post Post #1717 (ISO) » Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:17 am

In post 1715, a plain farmer wrote:
In order for this to have happened, I'd have had to think there might be a doc, and prior to the no-kill, I wouldn't have had any reason to think that there were.

In post 1640, Performer wrote:“Step aside everyone, step aside everyone! I’m a doctor, this man is bleeding profusely, let me help him.” said a voice. It was too late.

I'm thinking you might have thought there was a doc.
The point about it being a risky strategy is a good one.
Why would Loki no-kill as scum? What is scum-loki like? I'm having trouble forming any kind of coherent picture.

In post 1716, Lokiben wrote:
Frankly, the first statement is pingy in its own right ("I just want to let everyone know in advance that I'm town in case I do something scummy."),

Pre-emptive defense is a standard scumtell, but it's not unusual for relatively new players to do it as town.
It's an example of the kind of low-hanging fruit scum likes to go for to build their scumreads.

but it's worse in context. apf's explanation for scumreading camn is barely an explanation. He's asked why he likes camn, and he says he likes her votes, as if that settles it. He doesn't explain why he likes the votes, which was obviously what you were digging for, tictac, when you posed him that question.

I think we have established that town isn't always better at answering questions exhaustively than scum. Remember Elyse?

Then almost immediately, camn shoves him away for the same post in which he townreads camn. I propose apf was buddying with camn, and maybe did it a bit too blatantly or clumsily for camn's liking, and she subtly rejected him in that post.

Why would scum buddy a partner? The purpose of buddying is to make the other person like you and not vote for you.

In post 1064, a plain farmer wrote:

In post 992, a plain farmer wrote:Please don't lynch camn. This is the scummiest wagon of the game so far.

And here's where I lept in front of her wagon. Scum would not say this. Scum would not expend any of their political capital in this thread on such a minimalistic plea. Scum would either stay silent, or maybe try to build up a case in camn's favor.

Self-meta, again.

Meh. I don't think it's self-meta. It's an general observation about the things scum is likely to do, not describing his own playstyle specifically.

This time, it's a terrible abuse of WIFOM. "I did something that scum wouldn't want to do because it's scummy." I guess he'd argue that he meant to say that his presented opinions were independent of his alignment, because scum would actually care about how their opinions reflected on them, but the confidence with which he likes to assert that he is town is overdone.

If farmer is town he is 100% confident he is town. It's impossible for him to be too confident of it.
I will admit that I am uncomfortable with how conscious he is of the towny things he does.

In post 1112, a plain farmer wrote:On the prospect of Zulfy scum, my gut tells me that camn would be more inclined to put her partners in the scum or null section of her reads.

Funny, because that's where apf and ckd both were.

What is the scum motivation in that post?

Exhibit C: farmer waffling on ckd

apf on ckd through the ages:

So apf has been all over the place with ckd throughout the game, always finding some new angle that overrides everything prior.
Again, I find his earlier assertion that waffling is something that he does as town a hard sell.

Why? Almost everyone waffles as town.

My interpretation is that apf figured the best way to avoid implication by association was neither to explicitly bus nor buddy ckd.

Well there's no question that he did bus him, if he's scum. How did ya miss that?

Miscelaneous:

In post 1569, a plain farmer wrote:It's a little worrying how the energy in the thread has died down after I slowed the momentum of the pisskop wagon. I understand we're still waiting on responses.

This feels like a towncred grab.

It does a bit.
"feels like".. You are still talking like farmer is a

potential

scum, and I'm finding it weird.

apf is good. His scumplay towards the end reminds me of the player that I idolize the most (someone from another forum), in that he really will stop at nothing to build his own towncred in MYLO.
There was the ckd lynch,

That's valid. There was no point in CKD self-destructing like he did if no partners would gain towncred from it, and the person who gained cred was farmer.

and there was the hesitance he demonstrated today with voting you, tictac. You could argue that it would have been easier for him to pile on my one man wagon of you, but that would have been riskier, since you could have plead your case and changed my mind.

1. I kinda doubt I could have.
2. He didn't need to vote early at all. That way either one of us could have voted for the other and he just needed to hammer. He discarded the possibility of mislynching me for no good reason.

The fact is that apf is in no hurry to force a mislynch,

He voted ya really early in the day. It's a risky play since early LYLO votes are generally considered scummy. I doubt he anticipated me townreading him for it.

because he knows that as long as he's being townread, there's no way he can lose. So what he's done, rather than gamble by rushing a lynch, is take his sweet time and ensure his longterm survival, since that's all he needs to win for his entire faction.

Wouldn't it make more sense for him to keep his options open, if he's playing long term?

a plain farmer · Post Post #1718 (ISO) » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:24 am

In post 1717, tictac wrote:
In post 1715, a plain farmer wrote:
In order for this to have happened, I'd have had to think there might be a doc, and prior to the no-kill, I wouldn't have had any reason to think that there were.

In post 1640, Performer wrote:“Step aside everyone, step aside everyone! I’m a doctor, this man is bleeding profusely, let me help him.” said a voice. It was too late.

I'm thinking you might have thought there was a doc.

I was interested in the possibility of there being a doc on Day 6, since it might've given us a conftown, and conventional wisdom holds that having a conftown in Mylo gives town the advantage. I assumed Performer's flavor text didn't have any gameplay implications, so I didn't factor that in.

Why would Loki no-kill as scum?

Three possibilities (although perhaps none of them are good): 1) He didn't submit a kill in time, 2) He couldn't decide who to kill, 3) he hoped to gain whatever "advantage" pisskop was referring to in 1680.

What is scum-loki like?

I know you have a lot on your plate already, but here's one of his more recent scum games: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65168

Anyway, I don't know how you handle big decisions, but I know I don't handle them well. I was wracked by meaningless loops of self-questioning last week, until I finally had to come to terms with the fact that some questions don't have good answers. Everyone is going to have done something that looks very town, and everyone is going to have done something that looks very scummy. If you, too, struggle with these things, and feel you've done enough reading and thinking, then consider stepping up to the precipice and jumping. If you don't struggle with these things, carry on reading and thinking.

tictac · Post Post #1719 (ISO) » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:38 am

In post 1718, a plain farmer wrote:I know you have a lot on your plate already, but here's one of his more recent scum games: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65168

Ya got me excited there for a sec.

Anyway, I don't know how you handle big decisions, but I know I don't handle them well. I was wracked by meaningless loops of self-questioning last week, until I finally had to come to terms with the fact that some questions don't have good answers. Everyone is going to have done something that looks very town, and everyone is going to have done something that looks very scummy. If you, too, struggle with these things, and feel you've done enough reading and thinking, then consider stepping up to the precipice and jumping. If you don't struggle with these things, carry on reading and thinking.

I wonder if ya'd be saying that if I wasn't liable to vote Loki currently.
I'll probably take the leap soonish, but not yet.

Lokiben · Post Post #1720 (ISO) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:28 pm

The DC metro is completely shut down, and my school has cancelled as a result. It's a huge blessing and I'll be responding shortly.

Lokiben · Post Post #1721 (ISO) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:56 pm

In post 1717, tictac wrote:

In post 1716, Lokiben wrote:
Frankly, the first statement is pingy in its own right ("I just want to let everyone know in advance that I'm town in case I do something scummy."),

Pre-emptive defense is a standard scumtell, but it's not unusual for relatively new players to do it as town.
It's an example of the kind of low-hanging fruit scum likes to go for to build their scumreads.
but it's worse in context. apf's explanation for scumreading camn is barely an explanation. He's asked why he likes camn, and he says he likes her votes, as if that settles it. He doesn't explain why he likes the votes, which was obviously what you were digging for, tictac, when you posed him that question.

I think we have established that town isn't always better at answering questions exhaustively than scum. Remember Elyse?

I still don't see a town motivation behind this post or anything Elyse did.

Then almost immediately, camn shoves him away for the same post in which he townreads camn. I propose apf was buddying with camn, and maybe did it a bit too blatantly or clumsily for camn's liking, and she subtly rejected him in that post.

Why would scum buddy a partner? The purpose of buddying is to make the other person like you and not vote for you.

Buddying is the wrong word. Is there a common term for the opposite of bussing? Supporting? That's what he must have been doing, and camn must not have liked it. camn and ckd already demonstrated a pattern of bussing scum, and bussing hard. farmer fits into the equation very well.

In post 1064, a plain farmer wrote:

In post 992, a plain farmer wrote:Please don't lynch camn. This is the scummiest wagon of the game so far.

And here's where I lept in front of her wagon. Scum would not say this. Scum would not expend any of their political capital in this thread on such a minimalistic plea. Scum would either stay silent, or maybe try to build up a case in camn's favor.

Self-meta, again.

Meh. I don't think it's self-meta. It's an general observation about the things scum is likely to do, not describing his own playstyle specifically.
This time, it's a terrible abuse of WIFOM. "I did something that scum wouldn't want to do because it's scummy." I guess he'd argue that he meant to say that his presented opinions were independent of his alignment, because scum would actually care about how their opinions reflected on them, but the confidence with which he likes to assert that he is town is overdone.

If farmer is town he is 100% confident he is town. It's impossible for him to be too confident of it.
I will admit that I am uncomfortable with how conscious he is of the towny things he does.

I'm not saying that he was acting overconfident in his towniness, I'm saying that his confidence was overdone, as you agree. As for that first part, he was obviously implying that the behavior was not something he would exhibit as scum, otherwise it would be irrelevant.

In post 1112, a plain farmer wrote:On the prospect of Zulfy scum, my gut tells me that camn would be more inclined to put her partners in the scum or null section of her reads.

Funny, because that's where apf and ckd both were.

What is the scum motivation in that post?

It's his beloved informed perspective.

Exhibit C: farmer waffling on ckd

apf on ckd through the ages:

So apf has been all over the place with ckd throughout the game, always finding some new angle that overrides everything prior.
Again, I find his earlier assertion that waffling is something that he does as town a hard sell.

Why? Almost everyone waffles as town.
My interpretation is that apf figured the best way to avoid implication by association was neither to explicitly bus nor buddy ckd.

Well there's no question that he did bus him, if he's scum. How did ya miss that?

Then it's probably confirmation bias showing, confirmed with his earlier assertion that it's a town tell of his. And he

Miscelaneous:

In post 1569, a plain farmer wrote:It's a little worrying how the energy in the thread has died down after I slowed the momentum of the pisskop wagon. I understand we're still waiting on responses.

This feels like a towncred grab.

It does a bit.
"feels like".. You are still talking like farmer is a
potential
scum, and I'm finding it weird.

apf is good. His scumplay towards the end reminds me of the player that I idolize the most (someone from another forum), in that he really will stop at nothing to build his own towncred in MYLO.
There was the ckd lynch,

That's valid. There was no point in CKD self-destructing like he did if no partners would gain towncred from it, and the person who gained cred was farmer.
and there was the hesitance he demonstrated today with voting you, tictac. You could argue that it would have been easier for him to pile on my one man wagon of you, but that would have been riskier, since you could have plead your case and changed my mind.

1. I kinda doubt I could have.
2. He didn't need to vote early at all. That way either one of us could have voted for the other and he just needed to hammer. He discarded the possibility of mislynching me for no good reason.

I can tell you I wasn't going to cast my vote for a good long time. It's true I was too sure thorough case could have changed my mind. I can only assume apf anticipated this.

The fact is that apf is in no hurry to force a mislynch,

He voted ya really early in the day. It's a risky play since early LYLO votes are generally considered scummy. I doubt he anticipated me townreading him for it.
because he knows that as long as he's being townread, there's no way he can lose. So what he's done, rather than gamble by rushing a lynch, is take his sweet time and ensure his longterm survival, since that's all he needs to win for his entire faction.

Wouldn't it make more sense for him to keep his options open, if he's playing long term?

I think you've answered your own question here. By placing his vote on me instead of you, he's still got the same sized target: a mislynch. But given the credit he reaped by flipping sides, voting for me was disputably the smarter choice. It's in line with the rest of his scum play of rushing nothing, and building only his own rep.

Lokiben · Post Post #1722 (ISO) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:07 pm

HOLD UP HOLD UP HOLD UP

I CAN CONFIRM MY INNOCENCE

TICTAC

LOOK

In post 1533, Performer wrote:
VOTE COUNT 4.05

pisskop (3): tictac, a plain farmer, curiouskarmadog
Zulfy (1): Lokiben
tictac (1): Zulfy
a plain farmer (1): pisskop

No vote (1): Some Random Mafia Player

With 7 players alive, it takes 4/7 votes to lynch.

For deadlines & notes, please refer to this post – post 3 !

I COULD HAVE HAMMERED PISSKOP

SCUM WOULD HAVE WON RIGHT THEN

BUT I DIDN'T

Lokiben · Post Post #1723 (ISO) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:09 pm

I WAS ONLINE BEFORE APF UNVOTED

DO YOU SEE THAT

HALLE FUCKING LUJAH

Lokiben · Post Post #1724 (ISO) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Wait, nope, that wasn't MYLO.