Mini 1767: Innocent Unless Actually Guilty {Over!}

[emogirl123]

@kain, I don't think I used horrible remarks at you. Also I searched up your name to see if I can find any records of your games off-site since all of your games were on-going. It was relevant since I was making a point about how you are scum since you aren't matching up with your meta.

[Ranger]

I do wonder if it's swingy, especially if scum were to hit vt's early on rather than masons; they shouldn't expect masons day/night 1 anyways. Hitting vt either night 1 or night 2 still ends up on day 3 with 3 scum 3 mason 3 town, which for what's supposed to be nearly the best case scenario for scum (2 mislynches) still doesn't look that good with the 3 conf towns.

The reason for this is a combination of two factors: math, and typical mason play.
Starting with typical mason play, masons usually end up exposing themselves early. They're almost never lynched, yes, but often, they are seen as scummy, especially a 3-man masonry, where their mutual defense of one another looks awfully a lot like a 3-man scumteam. (Dwlee99, upon becoming a mason, even said this is what he

thought

was the case! He thought the masons were scum together.) This causes masons to be run up and forced to claim often. Sometimes, all the masonry will claim, sometimes just the one mason being run up, but regardless of which, associatives mean that once one mason is outed, it's fairly easy to find the other mason(s).

Then, you get into the math. Assume a mislynch each day: this gives the mafia 3 chances per phase to hit a PR: the lynch, the nightkill,

and

the Neapolitan. So the math goes like this: going into N1, there would be 9/12 players the scum do not know. Between the nightkill and their investigation, that's 7/11 by daybreak. Assuming no overlap, with a second mislynch, you get 7/10 unknown going into N2, which becomes 5/9 by D3. In short, when the mafia's nightkill (which should be aimed at PRs) is combined with the mafia neapolitan (which should be aimed at PRs), the mafia can identify half the town as being either a PR or not a PR by D3...and this is from the math alone. When overlayed with the above (i.e. masons tend to be obvious by associatives), the mafia had every chance to catch the masons.

What's more, if in 7p lylo all three masons were alive, would you believe them claiming masons in lylo? Most likely, you would assume they were being bold scum going for an all-or-nothing lylo win. Plus, if the mafia had failed to catch the masons by that point, the town probably deserves the win anyway.

This is why the mafia underestimating the necessity of their Neapolitan and letting it be lynched D1 was so costly: the setup was balanced around the Neapolitan investigating, so without that capacity, they were greatly hindered, making it deceptively town-sided. There's also how the Neapolitan was supposed to claim: Neapolitans are not a common role, so it's not something mafia would think to fakeclaim. (It'd be akin to fakeclaiming Gunsmith: most mafia simply claim cop, like KainTepes did.) Neapolitans are also not a common scum role, because they're mostly used for the town as a cop-lite: getting clear innocent results on vanilla townies, but guilty results on all mafia and on any PR. So the idea was that the Neapolitan could claim, and then not be lynched, because it was a believable role to have in the setup.

When you add in daychat, which the mafia did not utilize very much, they had plenty of theoretical power in the setup. It simply never materialized.

[Ranger]

Modding QT
Mafia QT
Mason QT
Dead QT

[kirroha]

WE NEED TO KILL KIRROAH TONIGHT

SHE KNOWS TOO MUCH???? SHE GUESSED KAZAMAN AND ALWAYS INNOCENT???? WE CANT HAVE HER ALIVE

[3dicerolling]

You are not factoring in the fact that the setup basically strips the scum of it's choice to skill. The setup is designed around the scum having to kill the masons, so even if they want to kill a universal Townread, it's not worth it because they have to kill a confirmed town.

I'm not saying this setup is bad, I'm saying it is town sided, even with the neopolitan alive.

[Golden Robster]

Yes my claim was an obvious red herring; the bullshit was strong in this one.

[Mirhawk]

Good game guys.

Got stomped pretty hard not goinna lie, but town played pretty good so they earned it.

Nos, kirroha, and yessir were pretty much locked onto scum right from the start of the game.

I really shouldn't have let yessir drag me into that argument like that. Getting into big dumb arguments always gets me lynched and i know it, but I do it anyways.
I kind of wish i had claimed sooner. I wasn't available when my lynch went through, I'm not sure if the Neapolitan claim would have saved me but it might have.

[3dicerolling]

Congrats though town. You played a great game and nailed scum early. It didn't really matter what the setup was.

[Dwlee99]

I hammered before the neopalitan claim! MVP!!!! jk I sucked ;P

[Firebringer]

This game was hilarious in hindsight, like seriously - it mostly involved scum attempting to convince those on their wagons to vote their scumbuddies instead, and failing.

How is Kain the last scum to survive?

I wanted kain out of the game, he was annoying to play with.

[Firebringer]

This is why the mafia underestimating the necessity of their Neapolitan and letting it be lynched D1 was so costly: the setup was balanced around the Neapolitan investigating

Balancing the whole game around 1 role is kind of bad IMO.
You can't predict players, and you can't predict that even if Mirrhawk claimed he would survive.

Why would 3 masons believe town had such a powerful investigative role?

[Firebringer]

@Cogito Ergo Sum
@fferyllt
@mykonian

Come on guys, I mean normalcy is one thing.....but Balance? Really? A SUPER SWINGY GAME ISNT BALANCED.
lol.

Just no.

[Killthestory]

Setup was fine, probably a little townsided, but that's fact. No need to wear out your criticism over and over.

[Dwlee99]

You would of lost anyway, firebringer. No need for NaCl

[Firebringer]

You would of lost anyway, firebringer. No need for NaCl

I am really not mad about losing, I am kind of upset at the reviewers who approved this setup.
I am fine with losing, I have lost enough, but this setup was pretty bad.

3 masons is bad, 4? wtf?

[yessiree]

gg everyone

have to say ranger's inactivity kind of make me apathetic about this game, but I understand this was beyond her control. perhaps you could use a backup mod next time, ranger

This is why the mafia underestimating the necessity of their Neapolitan and letting it be lynched D1 was so costly: the setup was balanced around the Neapolitan investigating

Balancing the whole game around 1 role is kind of bad IMO.
You can't predict players, and you can't predict that even if Mirrhawk claimed he would survive.

Why would 3 masons believe town had such a powerful investigative role?

the same reason vigs have every reason to believe in gunsmith claims
a town neapolitan would make a lot of sense here because of the mason false positives, and i would have believed it if mirhawk full claimed

You would of lost anyway, firebringer. No need for NaCl

I am really not mad about losing, I am kind of upset at the reviewers who approved this setup.
I am fine with losing, I have lost enough, but this setup was pretty bad.

3 masons is bad, 4? wtf?

maybe you should take it to pm then? clearly you are on the only one in this thread with this opinion

[Firebringer]

maybe you should take it to pm then? clearly you are on the only one in this thread with this opinion

Very few want to be that guy on here.
Or maybe everyone was fine with the setup, I don't know.

I don't see why anyone person should take it up with pms, this isn't some drama thing.

Thanks for modding ranger, it was meh game, but you did fine as a host.

[Firebringer]

the same reason vigs have every reason to believe in gunsmith claims
a town neapolitan would make a lot of sense here because of the mason false positives, and i would have believed it if mirhawk full claimed

You don't read someone as town just by role claim. Thats poor play.

[Dwlee99]

If the setup was

Doc
Cop
VTs

Roleblocker
Goon
Goon

would you complain about it being dependent on one scum role? Because once the roleblocker dies follow the cop is potentially possible but that setup is still used.

[Firebringer]

If the setup was

Doc
Cop
VTs

Roleblocker
Goon
Goon

would you complain about it being dependent on one scum role? Because once the roleblocker dies follow the cop is potentially possible but that setup is still used.

No, thats a balanced setup. Its not reliant on just roleblocker for scum team.
Cop doesn't know their is a Doc immediately. Even if thats true, a scum could counter claim it and attempt to mislynch it.

You can't do that with Masons.

[Dwlee99]

I suppose

[yessiree]

the same reason vigs have every reason to believe in gunsmith claims
a town neapolitan would make a lot of sense here because of the mason false positives, and i would have believed it if mirhawk full claimed

You don't read someone as town just by role claim. Thats poor play.

I didn't say I would pin mirhawk as conftown just by his claim. It would have given me enough pause to swing the lynch to someone else though.
the poor play here was the fact that the scum team missed the opportunity to save mirhawk's slot by not claiming

[yessiree]

maybe you should take it to pm then? clearly you are on the only one in this thread with this opinion

Very few want to be that guy on here.
Or maybe everyone was fine with the setup, I don't know.

I don't see why anyone person should take it up with pms, this isn't some drama thing.

Thanks for modding ranger, it was meh game, but you did fine as a host.

it's fine if you legit think the setup is imbalanced

but what good will come by shouting about it in a game thread?

[Ranger]

have to say ranger's inactivity kind of make me apathetic about this game, but I understand this was beyond her control. perhaps you could use a backup mod next time, ranger

By default, that would automatically be N for normal games. (He had access to everything.) However, I checked in and gave a VC at least once every day (sometimes more); it only seemed like less because I log in during times almost everyone has already provided all the content they will for the day.

I suppose there were the day start delays, but that was mostly through setting a deadline of

exactly

48 hours from the flips...which came at unusual, awkward times: reading time stamps, you'll understand why 7 AM Eastern Time is not exactly a time I'd be around to open the thread. The extra day's delay for D4 was unfortunately something I could not control, yet not to alarming levels.

So, between those, there was never a reason he'd have needed to step in: I was within acceptable moderator activity range.

However, your point's valid: it would help to have a backup moderator providing votecounts at a time I am unlikely to be around, i.e. during the hours everyone

else

is around, so I'll keep that in mind for future games.

...On that note, the next series of games I'm planning are going to feature a mechanic reminiscent of my home site, which started with Werewolf instead of Mafia. Most games allowed for PMs between players; I'm planning on adapting that mechanic (modified slightly) using quicktopics in their place. (See, Firebringer, there's a method to my madness.) The first game will be a micro, the second a mini, and then I'm planning a large with a similar (albeit weaker) mechanic.

It'll be called "Whispers in the Woods", and I'm about to start asking for a review of the Micro, which will serve as a test for the larger versions of the game.

[Dwlee99]

my home site recently made a mechanic where people can pm the mod to message a player a message and it has a % chance of being revealed to the entire game and a % chance it goes through smoothly and there's also a thing that says when people message each other.