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FA_Q2
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Post Post #1925  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:09 pm

In post 1924, mhsmith0 wrote:Also @faq: imo the setup really was pretty town sided with a lot of ways town could PR their way to the win. Then again I'm probably biased since I think most setups here are town sided lol.

No, I agree. There are a few chances that town had that would have screwed the scum over. For instance, the JOAT should have hard claimed on day 2 or 3 and then used their commute ability. I think that needs to be removed in a setup like this.

Originally I did not have a UB but the reviewers thought it was to scum sided and that another town PR needed to be added.

Dierfire
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Post Post #1926  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:12 pm

Grah, that's too bad.
Obviously me being a viable lynch in LYLO is my fault--my reads were poor in this game, and being indecisive in MYLO and LYLO was no help. Perhaps I should just have followed mhsmith0.
I also owe Expedience an apology for the D3 lynch, which I think was probably my worst vote. I was reading Expedience as Town, and fairly strongly, but I didn't have the fortitude to stick with my read (if only I'd been similarly open to influence in the later game...).
As far as night actions, in addition to using the Watcher action on chilledtea, the JOAT should also probably have strongly claimed the innocent result on mhsmith0 before using the Commuter role (in order to eat the kill and buy an extra lynch). (EDIT:What Mod said)

Well, played, everyone!

@Mod
Thanks for running the game!

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Post Post #1927  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:14 pm

One thing that I at least approve of is there was no cop (though there was a cop shot on the JOAT). I think it'd have worked better with nerfing the JOAT a bit to like tracker, watcher, bodyguard, and then give wolves a 1-shot ninja to possibly break the JOAT's ability. That way it becomes a lot likelier that the UB would pick up something pretty useless from the JOAT instead of fundamentally being a backup JK.
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Dierfire
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Post Post #1928  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:18 pm

As a side note, I still think that lynching Sakura Hana over Boonskiies is a good play there if we're determined to lynch one of them (although clearly I was off in my read there, the only time that that strategy is bad is if they're both Town).

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Post Post #1929  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:20 pm

Honestly the right lynch there was garmr given that both "jailer" claims were "for" it. Sakura's drama with Boon shifted momentum away from it. That was basically the single most pro-wolf sequence that simply happened to look like a pro-town sequence of the game :(
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mhsmith0
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Post Post #1930  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:21 pm

In post 1926, Dierfire wrote:Perhaps I should just have followed mhsmith0


Or at least seriously engaged with my case. But yes, blind sheeping of dead townies who seem at least reasonably competent is a reasonable starting point if you're completely out of ideas. The reads and ideas of town-flipped players is IMO a pretty under-utilized resource generally speaking.
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Dierfire
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Post Post #1931  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:52 am

In post 1928, Dierfire wrote:As a side note, I still think that lynching Sakura Hana over Boonskiies is a good play there if we're determined to lynch one of them (although clearly I was off in my read there, the only time that that strategy is bad is if they're both Town).

In post 1929, mhsmith0 wrote:Honestly the right lynch there was garmr given that both "jailer" claims were "for" it.


True, lynching Garmr is certainly (statistically) a good move there if we believe chilledtea (which I did not--and which I did not correctly recall until much later when you pointed it out). I don't know that the claim by Boonskiies made it any better, though.

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Post Post #1932  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:16 am

Well, it's very likely that at least one of those two (boon/ct) were telling the truth, and that means that the confirmed town among them was for the lynch. Moreover, by lynching a key suspect outside the dipole, it basically meant that the wolves would have to either sacrifice boon (a CT flip means boon dies D3) or allow CT to live even longer and potentially buy town an extra lynch. And, of course, as it turns out, the Garmr lynch was the "right" lynch by virtue of actually being mafia (which is why I'd really only noticed this post Garmr flip). But mainly it was something where the momentum was heading in that direction, and Sakura's action cut it off. THAT was the key pro-mafia move, and why (now knowing that Garmr was mafia), Sakura's "town credit" for her part in boon's lynch was ill-earned, and as it turned out, other than the town credit from that move, there really wasn't very much townie about that slot.

And this was especially true D3 and later. Sakura's work on D3 didn't look at all like what you'd expect from a near-confirmed townie who was very likely to die N3. Some of that was because she was sick, of course, but even the posts she made had a different look and feel to the pre-boon lynch body of work (and given the high amount of day chat coordination, I suspect a key reason for this was that she could no longer talk to her buddies live). And then, of course, there was Riabi's work, which on D4 and D5 was consistently wolfy. I probably needed to do more to zero in on that, but I feel like I was pretty clear about Riabi all by himself being entirely lynchable as a resume.

Unfortunately, on D6 the rest of the town (you and toast) weren't much interested in game-solving or really working to figure things out (or even working to present your own "I'm clearly town because ___" cases), which were pretty anti-town behaviors that made me start to reconsider my game-solving. Still, Titus's D6 vote on Dier for "NK motive" was pretty clearly BS, which I called out very explicitly, and again no one seemed to much care, which again made me think it was probably Titus but realistically could have been either toast or dier.

And Dier's counter-vote on Titus on D6 () was pretty awful as well. Just a "well gee, this game is hard, so I guess I better vote Titus". I mean, I now get that you were being honest about it, but that's simply not a legitimately townie thought process (and btw, Titus pushing back on this immediately was a very effective move IMO, and she absolutely out-debated you in that segment). The very least you could have done was engage with my explicit case on the slot (posted D5 and D6) and explicitly say why you agree or disagree.

And then D7... I'm sorry, but D7 was simply bad. Dier, because you know you're town, it's incumbent upon you to present toast with the information he needs to make an informed decision. Titus basically said nothing because she was mafia and wanted to deprive toast of info. You needed to make a case, ESPECIALLY since it was fairly obvious toast was leaning towards voting you.
"Into your hands I commend my spirit."
and
"I'm pleased to have guessed correctly."
... Toasty guessed wrong, and that's to some degree on him, but you gave him basically nothing to work with (not even bothering to go back and highlight what you thought were the most compelling parts of my case against Titus slot). It's simply not fair to ask him to do more work to figure things out than you were willing to do.
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mhsmith0
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Post Post #1933  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:28 am

That said, that's really intended to be more of a critique / suggestion for improvement than anything else. Probably came out a bit over-salty, and if so I apologize.
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Sakura Hana
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Post Post #1934  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:35 am

Dont worry Dier, making Exp into mislynchable with his insistance for a CC to happen was all part of my plan!

Apologies for the rep out tho, i wish i hadn't fallen sick coz i was very happy with that scum theatre and wanted to ride it to the end :(
Please be nice to me

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Post Post #1935  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:48 am

ftr i still have no clue what Garmr meant with this:
In post 1603, Garmr wrote:Like when I was jailkeeped night one I didn't have a choose in making the kill I was strongly opposed only a idiot would have the person who the only person who was town read by the majority to make the kill in case of watcher or jailkeeper or some other role that could nab me. But we have this weird voting system that's like lynching aka majority rules gah. Hell I wanted to kill exp night one because I knew he would cast suspicion on me but boon managed to convince the other scum buddy to vote his way which is absolute bs. If I was left to take charge the scum team wouldn't be in such a horrible position but no one listens to garmr.

Don't even get me started on the fake jail keeper claim and nearly outing our other buddy by accident.

But well you can find my opinion on the matter in the Dead PT :P
Please be nice to me

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Post Post #1936  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:00 am

In post 1935, Sakura Hana wrote:ftr i still have no clue what Garmr meant with this:
In post 1603, Garmr wrote:Like when I was jailkeeped night one I didn't have a choose in making the kill I was strongly opposed only a idiot would have the person who the only person who was town read by the majority to make the kill in case of watcher or jailkeeper or some other role that could nab me. But we have this weird voting system that's like lynching aka majority rules gah. Hell I wanted to kill exp night one because I knew he would cast suspicion on me but boon managed to convince the other scum buddy to vote his way which is absolute bs. If I was left to take charge the scum team wouldn't be in such a horrible position but no one listens to garmr.

Don't even get me started on the fake jail keeper claim and nearly outing our other buddy by accident.

But well you can find my opinion on the matter in the Dead PT :P


Garmr was lying out his ass in order to frame Lowell, and I bought it :oops:
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mhsmith0
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Post Post #1937  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:00 am

Oh, happy birthday btw! Guess you got your present just a little bit early.
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Sakura Hana
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Post Post #1938  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:02 am

Thanks!
Please be nice to me

ToastyToast
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Post Post #1939  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:12 am

Sorry team! I found Sakura very convincing so props to that, and even though I didn't like Riabi's play, Titus did a good job of building some case

Dier, your wishy-washyness was a contributing factor in my decision, but in hindsight I don't think I scrutinized Titus as much as I should have. I was more biased against you during the last day despite my earlier town read. I did not play my best here but it was still a good chance to get my feet wet since I play sporadically these days.

Good setup by scum team. Still don't completely understand the kill choices but it worked!

mhs, I honestly don't believe you are a newb. You played really brilliantly this game and were definitely town mvp. I think one way you could improve is just by trying to adapt to other players a little more. Namely, although this is LARGELY due to the fact that my real-life schedule went nuts for the latter half of the game, I couldn't always keep up with your posts. Summarizing cases might help out a bit.
"A train robbery is where you take a train to your destination, make your move, and take a train back, right?"-Isaac

Town: 12-10 (I think) Mafia: 1-1 Third Party: 1-0 Alive in:0 Dead in:0 Modded: 2

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Post Post #1940  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:25 am

also @mhs: betch why you read me so well in the dead thread

@sakura: I dislike town blocks because if one scum gets in them they end up having way too much influence over the game. It is also insufferable to deal with if you aren't part of the town block. As someone who tends to go against the majority because I think it is important to do from a gameplay perspective (it provides more debate over a lynch so the sheepy-type players have less room to hide and end up having more decisions scrutinized, it also forces scum to pick a side), being outside the numbers becomes a reason to lynch someone pretty quickly. The "if you disagree with those I deem town, you're scum" mentality usually results in a town loss.
"A train robbery is where you take a train to your destination, make your move, and take a train back, right?"-Isaac

Town: 12-10 (I think) Mafia: 1-1 Third Party: 1-0 Alive in:0 Dead in:0 Modded: 2

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Post Post #1941  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:12 am

@toast: fwiw I was pretty newb when I started (one completed game to my name), but over the rather lengthy span of the game I've gained a lot more experience. I don't feel like a newb anymore, though of course it'd be nice if my record looked a bit healthier on the w side and leaner on the L's ;)

But my six game losing streak is nicely in the past, and it feels GOOD to be starting to win again even if this one didn't work out.

Ps yeah being less spammy is something I def. need to work on. It's a weakness of mine, I definitely admit.
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Madonna
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Post Post #1942  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:44 am

Congratulations, mafia. Less congratulations, town. :(
Make the right decision,
VOTE: Madonna

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Post Post #1943  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:16 pm

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