Mini Normal 1814 Machiavellian Mafia (Game Over)

[Nero Cain]

I also agree that this game was townsided. Like if town won the mafia would be completely justified in moaning about the set up.

Feel kinda bad about lynching DW but that lulzy tunneling on tunneling on a near confirmed town was kinda balls.

[MariaR]

You had no idea how shocked I was when I came to see I was rb'd I was 100% sure Nero was fake claiming

[Nero Cain]

yeah, all 3* of my targets were on scum


*I had misread my pm and thought I was a full JK so night 2 I sent in a block on Gerry

[MariaR]

When Nero's a pro and he doesn't realise it

[Nero Cain]

oh I know I'm good. Like I recognized that both Ross and Map were mislynches and had correct scumreads on 2/3 mafia.

[BigYoshiFan]

good game guys!

[BigYoshiFan]

Also, what the hell, Zap wasn't mafia?

[MariaR]

Now that I know your scum meta, I don't think I'll be fooled by you again Maria lol

I change my scum game a ton I hope you can keep up

[MichelSableheart]

Thanks for the game, everyone, and congrats to mafia.

Gerry, the 'townslip' was extremely well executed, and sealed the game for you. That was extremely good play.

Maria, though disbelieving Gerry's townslip helped keep the distance between you, I think you went way too far there. When zap, ira and me were all telling you that Gerry was town, was it really necessary to continue disbelieving him? The fights at the end of day 3 and day 4 in particular made the game significantly less enjoyable.

Nero, part of good play is convincing others. If I look at your play during day 3 and day 4, I find it difficult to tell where exactly you tried to convince me of you being town. It honestly felt to me that you were more interested in creating chaos than in finding scum. The question I asked you was brushed away, you came up with "this game is solved, vote Gerry" rather then interacting with my analysis, and despite having made a large number of posts, you hadn't posted your jailkeeptarget yet when I voted you day 4. It might be a good idea to try to work together with your fellow townplayers more.

zap, it was a joy playing with you. You managed to keep a relatively cool head, and kept analysing the game. I would love to play with you again.

BYF, I owe you an apology. Given my analysis at that point, my vote for you was a mistake, plain and simple. I felt that confirming zap as town if you flipped scum was more important then confirming Maria as town if Nero flipped scum. However, I should have realized that with the way Maria was focussing Gerry, I would be completely unable to lynch my suspected scumteam if you flipped town. As for what you could do better, I don't really know. I mainly chose your lynch through process of elimination.

If anyone has feedback for me, I would love to hear that too.

[MichelSableheart]

Regarding the balance: though town is stronger then in most games, I don't actually believe the game was unbalanced. Most players tend to significantly underestimate the strength mafia get from numbers.

The strongest role by far is the weak doc, as that role is the only one that can actually clear people. However, there are two significant disadvantages to the role: first, the jailkeeper introduces the possibility of incorrect innocent results, and secondly, getting a guilty result costs the town a lynch as it takes our numbers from odd to even during day.

The JOAT looks far more useful than it actually is. The information from a motion detector, follower or voyeur, though useful, is extremely unlikely to actually identify scum. The only really useful thing in there, at least according to me, is the ability to clear a VT through the neapolitan.

Sure, the jailkeeper can prevent a kill, but that in and of itself doesn't do much, as it brings us in Mylo rather then Lylo. and because of the presence of a commuter, it also doesn't give hard info on who the scum are.

So yes, the town is strong, but it looks stronger then it actually is. Mafia definately has a decent chance here.

[Nero Cain]

If I look at your play during day 3 and day 4, I find it difficult to tell where exactly you tried to convince me of you being town.

Its not towns job to convince others they are town, its towns job to find scum which is what I did on d2. Like can you really blame me for suspecting DW? He was lulz tunneling two townies and ya I led a lynch on him. D4 I was scumreading obvious scum Gerry and fell into the trap of lynching lynchbait BYF.

The question I asked you was brushed away, you came up with "this game is solved, vote Gerry" rather then interacting with my analysis

Nero, let's assume you're town for a moment. in that case, there were no normal mafiosi on that Ira wagon. What do you think is the reason for this?

Who knows. I mean Ira was stinking up the thread and basically calling everyone that attacked him scum, so maybe they feared being called and getting tunneled.

but at the same time expecting town to know why X happened is a somewhat silly question but yes I did answer.

you hadn't posted your jailkeeptarget yet when I voted you day 4. It might be a good idea to try to work together with your fellow townplayers more.

I wanted day to go longer than it had the previous day and I didn't see a reason to out it immediately.

I was still the closest to solving the game and my J/K targets were on point. Maybe instead of me working with town the town should have tried to work with me?

[Something_Smart]

Regarding the balance: though town is stronger then in most games, I don't actually believe the game was unbalanced. Most players tend to significantly underestimate the strength mafia get from numbers.

The strongest role by far is the weak doc, as that role is the only one that can actually clear people. However, there are two significant disadvantages to the role: first, the jailkeeper introduces the possibility of incorrect innocent results, and secondly, getting a guilty result costs the town a lynch as it takes our numbers from odd to even during day.

The JOAT looks far more useful than it actually is. The information from a motion detector, follower or voyeur, though useful, is extremely unlikely to actually identify scum. The only really useful thing in there, at least according to me, is the ability to clear a VT through the neapolitan.

Sure, the jailkeeper can prevent a kill, but that in and of itself doesn't do much, as it brings us in Mylo rather then Lylo. and because of the presence of a commuter, it also doesn't give hard info on who the scum are.

So yes, the town is strong, but it looks stronger then it actually is. Mafia definately has a decent chance here.

This guy gets it.

There's also the fact that with more town PR's, there's more confusion in which the Mafia can hide, and PR claims are less likely to be believed (a variant of Stoofer's 3rd Law).

[BigYoshiFan]

Yeah, I was starting to get frustrated because people starting making assumptions on the number of PR's. However, this being my first game I thought it was the way to think in this type of game. Apparently not, thank you for the game Itlepip, Something_Smart, and all those who participated! It was a blast, and I definitely wanna play some more!

[Nero Cain]

In any balanced or semi balanced game the VTs will always be

atleast

50% of the town. Scum are about 33%?

9 out of 10 times it'll be 3 scum in a 13 player.

[BigYoshiFan]

In any balanced or semi balanced game the VTs will always be

atleast

50% of the town. Scum are about 33%?

9 out of 10 times it'll be 3 scum in a 13 player.

And that assumption is how you'll start making false accusations during other games. Also, check your math, 33% of 13 is a little bit more than 4. I think we can all agree that 4 mafia in a 13-player game would be overpowered for mafia in most circumstances.

[Nero Cain]

I do think that 4 scum in a mini is whack though it happens from time to time.

[MichelSableheart]

Its not towns job to convince others they are town, its towns job to find scum which is what I did on d2.[...]

Sorry, I completely disagree with that. A townie who can avoid being mislynched and just sheeps good scumhunters in infinitely more useful than a good scumhunter who can't convince anyone and gets mislynched as a result.

The question I asked you was brushed away, you came up with "this game is solved, vote Gerry" rather then interacting with my analysis

Nero, let's assume you're town for a moment. in that case, there were no normal mafiosi on that Ira wagon. What do you think is the reason for this?

Who knows. I mean Ira was stinking up the thread and basically calling everyone that attacked him scum, so maybe they feared being called and getting tunneled.

but at the same time expecting town to know why X happened is a somewhat silly question but yes I did answer.

You gave an answer, yes, but you gave no indication whatsoever that you thought about the question. What I was hoping to hear from you was how that particular situation influenced your thoughts on who was scum. I felt it was an interesting situation, and could potentially give a lot of information. You essentially responded with: "who knows, who cares?" When you failed to come up with a somewhat coherent explanation for why scum weren't on that wagon, that made it far more likely for me that scum were in fact on that wagon.

[Nero Cain]

you know whats funny? My answer was a perfectly logical answer. Scum didn't join the Ira wagon b/c they didn't want to get OMGUS scum read by Ira. I know that atleeast Gerry thought that Ira was the traitor but its not like I would have known that. Idk why Maria didn't join.

Stop trying to blame me for your bad play.

[MichelSableheart]

Not trying to blame you. Just telling my perspective to allow you to learn from it. But if you're not interested in that, it's probably best if I let the matter rest.

[Comparing Realities]

I was going to crumb traitor D1 in my intro post by conversationally calling Gerry a "pal" and Maria a "friend", but the post deleted and I didn't have the time to both respond to the game itself and contrive another crumb. I procrastinated.
I knew that Ira was going to be the D2 lynch; all I had to do was tunnel them hard, then do a fake guilty on someone (I was leaning Zap, he creeped me out; I knew thatwhile he might not have been right at that moment, he was very likely to be right in the end) D3, try to take them out with me.
I was going to crumb traitor D2, but Maria said something completely absolutely bone-chillingly awful:

WAIT WAIT WAIT

Scum have fucking day chat??? I thought it was only nightchat unless stated otherwise

...I knew I'd have to go solo after that. I could not afford to die sooner than D3, that conversation would be fresh in town's memory.
Nero started a bw on me, and, of course, Ira hops on; what really freaked me out was Maria joining in. I had completely failed to notify her before then, so my reaction post was literally designed to do nothing but dispel Nero's concerns and tip her off to my identity. I wanted to tell her I knew she was scum while still voting Ira, classic bus buddy lynch town, while distancing us from one another if I did die; from the looks of it, the later part worked.
I honestly don't know how I got lynched. Elyse and BYF voted me with absolutely no reasoning, and Zap had said I was an ambiguous figure earlier. I thought I'd shot down all of Nero's talking points, but apparently not...
The Gerry townslip was ingenious; I literally LOL'd when I realized what he was doing (for a while there, I actually thought he legitimately didn't know what traitor did). Maria and Gerry's fighting made me so happy, I didn't contemplate what it felt like for you guys. It was like watching a soap opera for me; I was removed from the drama, and thus enjoyed every moment of what was cancer for you guys.

MVP mafia goes to Gerry; his only real threat in this game was Nero, and Maria indirectly exacerbated our early game play.
MVP town goes to Elyse for almost saving the game. Nero's gut reads, the people he

knew

were scum but failed to admit to himself, were impeccable, but overall, his play was very... peccable, and I can't even blame him. The antagonistic environment that me, Ira, Dw, Nero, Elyse (to a lesser extent), and especially Gerry/Maria created waged a noticeable toll on his psyche. Zap silently withered, but Nero visibly rotted.
...In retrospect, this game was pretty terrible, wasn't it?

The only three people in this game whose play I really, really liked were Zap, Elyse, and Gerry.
Zap had all the tools and all the brainpower necessary to come to correct conclusions, but there was always one critical variable he lacked that threw off his reads. Easily the best analytic mind in the game. IMO Zap's the most competent player here, but we ruined it for him.
Elyse

frightened me

. She stopped talking mid-early game, so I had know idea what she was thinking, but she was right with astonishing accuracy. Every time she made a concrete read on someone, if I recall correctly, it was awfully close to true, if not completely correct. However, the fact that she never managed to nab a truly game-changing investigation N1 or N2 was unfortunate. She almost saved the game with the two clears, but it just wasn't enough; I don't recall her softing who she would visit N3 either, if she had done that, it probably would have been a town win.
And Gerry managed to go the entire game without messing anything up. If he ever did anything wrong, it was getting Ira to townread him, ironically, which, if I recall correctly, was one of the reasons Nero first started FOSing him, despite the "townslip" Nero realized was contrived.

And, reluctantly, I have to admit that itlepip was right about this being a de facto balanced theme. Commuter is too situational, JOATs in general suck, non-consecutive JK and weak doctor were the only things that stood much of a chance of doing anything, really. If you reduce the practicality of it to just the JK and the weak doctor versus an encrypted scumteam, it's actually fairly balanced. All the other two PR's did was add an element of luck, while reducing the viability of scumhunting via claims. Rosske claiming PR caused such a panic partially because three other town members were already inclined to take his claim with a grain of salt.

I would also like to issue a formal apology for being a jerkbag to Ira. I got carried away with tunneling you, and personally insulted you. I'm... sorry about that, I just really wanted you dead.

...Alright, that should be all I wanted to say. I did have two questions, though:
1) How did I do?
2) Zap, you should join the in-signups Desperation Day micro or Flavorless micro.

p-edit: For the love of crap, give it a rest, literally nobody played to even 50% of their full potential this game.

[Nero Cain]

I mean your "scum read" was basically "OMG WHY DON'T YOU KNOW WHY THERE WAS NO TEAMSCUM ON IRA!"

I think scum not wanting to vote Ira b/c he was OMGUS everone that thought he was scum is a perfectly valid thought. Obviously you disagree.

And then it was "omg we can't have a jailkeeper with these other roles!" Yet post game now you are saying that it made sense, WTF?

[MichelSableheart]

It was more that Gerry had me fooled. I felt that his townslip in combination with the reactions of the other players made him likely town. I also felt that ira was town for the way CR treated him. zap was likely town due to Elyse. So that left BYF, Maria, and you.

mod:

Still waiting for the scum private topic

[Something_Smart]

I'll bug him about it.

[itlepip]

blugh http://forum.mafiascum.net/posting.php? ... 90&t=67502

[MichelSableheart]

that's still private?