Mini Normal #1838 - Game Over

nn30
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Post Post #3475  (ISO)  » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:05 pm

@Grendel - on re-read, when you said 'I have the feeling Prism is trying to pocket me' it really pinged me. You are part of why I was able to vote him. So kudos.

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Post Post #3476  (ISO)  » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:11 pm

In post 3475, nn30 wrote:@Grendel - on re-read, when you said 'I have the feeling Prism is trying to pocket me' it really pinged me. You are part of why I was able to vote him. So kudos.
That one I never really got, because my prior two posts were pushing Grendel. I said I liked RVS and said one post was high quality but that was it in 2000 pages.

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Post Post #3477  (ISO)  » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:13 pm

2000 posts, I mean.

One of those linked to the wrong one but the right one is quoted within it anyway.

Grendel
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Post Post #3478  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:12 am

This game, for the record, it the first game where I have been mislynched.

In retrospect I still think that my lynch D3 was a weak choice, and I really should have been able to over throw it. I wish I decide to power through my sinus infection and try and deride my wagon. At the time I think I was focus on going after who I thought was scum was more important then defend myself.

I just kept assuming that it was clear I'm town, and that my wagon should fizzle out. Especially considering that Zoronos was doing jack squat to push my case. His whole case was associative tells, the assumption I'd bus, and that my play style is objectively "bad, and pro-scum". He never built off of that, and when I tied to engaged early in the day he cried AtE. He also spent more time pining outdated scum tells on my responses then caring what I said. It was at that point I recognized that talking to Zoronos would be pretty useless. Lastly, I still stand by what I said that Zoronos's push was personally fueled (ei he convinced himself that I was scum regardless anything I say).

Looking at my wagon:

Nn30 provided an in-depth read through where he came to the conclusion that I was a... moderate---weak town read, (I don't recall the spefic point he back tracked from this read, I just remember thinking it was gross and scummy)

It seemed like Dierfire only voted me for an apparent PoE for the entirety of the day. I thought that was really lazy from my PoV. Plus, I he talked to me like he knew I was town on multiple occasions.

Prism was scum, yet ironically, was the one to post the most through case on me.

Shadow compromise hammered.
-----------------------------------------------
There was nothing resembling a smoking gun on me, and none of the town players had what I could comfortably call good reasons to be on my wagon. Did I miss some vital information that made me conf!scum to you all in the thread proper?

Pre-edit

@Nn30 thanks though it was appernt in the scum pt that Prism wasn't aiming for that in the least.

@Prism Yes, it was mainly that you admonished me for my RQS, and said I made high quality posts. The reason I brought it up was B/C you made no effort to wk me in you D3 posting when I started coming under fire. Well actually I would have brought it up ether way. If you kept patting me on the head I likely would have scum read you, if you voiced reasonable suspicion then it you would have stayed null-town. In any case, I didn't view mentioning me as an after thought to be a "hard push" as you put it.

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Post Post #3479  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:54 am

@Grendel
In post 3478, Grendel wrote:It seemed like Dierfire only voted me for an apparent PoE for the entirety of the day. I thought that was really lazy from my PoV.

You're not wrong! It was a fairly lazy way to work on my part. I was not really an asset to the Town in this game--my apologies.

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Post Post #3480  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:22 am

Dierfire, your posting style results in me glossing over A LOT of your posts, because the fact you direct most posts at one person says that I can safely ignore the post.
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Post Post #3481  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:26 am

Ha ha, I guess that that depends on what you mean by "safely ignore" here! It's true that most of the time when I'm addressing someone specific I don't really require anyone else to weigh in, but it seems to me that if you wanted to know what I was thinking (in order to read my alignment, correct my mistakes, or be persuaded by my arguments) a good first step would be to read what I write.

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Post Post #3482  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:45 am

In post 3481, Dierfire wrote:Ha ha, I guess that that depends on what you mean by "safely ignore" here! It's true that most of the time when I'm addressing someone specific I don't really require anyone else to weigh in, but it seems to me that if you wanted to know what I was thinking (in order to read my alignment, correct my mistakes, or be persuaded by my arguments) a good first step would be to read what I write.
This is the reason I tried to make my posts as succinct and clear as possible, unless I was purposely trying to have it be lost. A lot of the ones I wanted at the forefront still got lost. I have a hard enough time being heard and understood in person.

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Post Post #3483  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:48 am

For what it's worth, I think you were by far the most clearly town of the unclears, at least from my vantage point, bar Shadow who really should have never been up for a lynch to begin with.

Grendel
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Post Post #3484  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:16 pm

Grendel wrote:
Nn30 provided an in-depth read through where he came to the conclusion that I was a... moderate---weak town read, (I don't recall the spefic point he back tracked from this read, I just remember thinking it was gross and scummy)


Actually nn30 did present reasons for scum reading me beyond, "I'm sheeping Zoronos B/c he is the best player"

Though the points he raised weren't particularly original regarding LUV associative tells. And that was the crux of his case. :/

Also this:
In post 2685, nn30 wrote:This post is regarding Grendel.

First spoiler - this is Grendel explaining why he unvoted me earlier in the day. For the purposes of this exercise I want you to read it and determine, on the basis of this post alone, what Grendel's read on me was at that time: scum, null, or town? Then move onto the second spoiler.

Spoiler:
In post 2372, Grendel wrote:Nn30, Initially I thought your knee jerk reaction to my vote at the start of the day was pretty scummy. But I forgot that you’re new to the site, and it is more a sign of your newness here then straight up scum opportunistic play. Primarily because as scum I don’t think you’d unvote, then put all this effort into thinking about the game state as a whole. If you were scum I’d imagine that you would be perfectly happy to ride me to my death.

I had some serous paranoia about you over the course of night two, but I’m pretty over it now. It was how you went on that tangent at EoD yesterday about serial killers. As a rule of thumb I find players that are paranoid about third party roles with night kill capabilities to be a scum tell. Mainly since a SK would be a threat to scum during the night, and can be leashed by town if found out making them as dangers as a vigilante to the mafia. I guess it sounds silly in this context, but it’s a legitimate tell on the other site I play at... I hope Gamma isn’t taking notes from the dead thread.

There is also the matters of POE on the boring wagon when I came into today, but I’ve lost my initial confidence that boring is town due to associative to another player I think is scum now.

I also don’t think that effort necessarily equals alignment, but I do think that faking the effort you have throughout the game is reflective of somebody with a lot more experience the you seem to actually have. I briefly entertained the idea that you could have more experience then you let on. I recall you playing lots of different games of deception for fun in you submitted RQS answers. But all the tangents you hit throughout the game sound a lot more like somebody who is newer to the game, and in interested in how things work, then somebody experienced. Even the sk thing in retrospect.


Spoiler:
Here's what he has to say about me six days later.
In post 2651, Grendel wrote:Hey Penguin. I know you think I'm scummy, but if you were to assume I were town. Do you think that Deirfire and nn30 are scummy, and have scum chemistry with LUV?


He's very clearly scum reading me IMO. Does this match the read he had on me from the above spoiler quote, in your opinion?

Spoiler:
There's also this. These quotes are only a day apart. On the one hand, this could be his read evolving naturally over the course of time (my reads certainly have). I'm more inclined to believe it's him, as scum, pretending to have reads and the result is that he's inconsistent.

In post 2372, Grendel wrote:
There is also the matters of POE on the boring wagon when I came into today, but I’ve lost my initial confidence that boring is town due to associative to another player I think is scum now.



In post 2433, Grendel wrote:
In post 2380, nn30 wrote:2) What are your feelings on the Boring case?

2) I think that boring is town, but a lot of it is based off of gut, and notes I took yesterday. I don't think I can lynch her.


Was really bad reasoning b/c nn30 was acting like my reads shouldn't change over time. He even says, this is what Grendel said _six_ days later. A lot of things can change in 144 hours.

Also, if somebody thinks your scum, while saying otherwise. Wouldn't that imply that their scum read on you was genuine?

What motivation would scum have to say, "Sure I think you're town", while their actions toward you indicate otherwise?

If you arguing that scum are inconsistent. You should take note the level of priority the scum had put into this game to keep their plays consistent. Most the time an inconsistent opinion is only applicable to newbie scum, which I am not. Meanwhile town will always struggle with consistency because that isn't something they pay attention to the degree that scum do.

You'd also be arguing that scum would be faking their motivations, which is a hard thing to pull off as scum.

((Like nn30, you took something that could considered a town tell in some circles as scummy))

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Post Post #3485  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:44 pm

@Grendel- great criticism. Things like this are how I'll improve my town game. Thank you.

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Post Post #3486  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:48 pm

nn30 you need to work on town reading people and trusting them

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Post Post #3487  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:51 pm

Since you asked for feedback, if I could make a small constructive suggestion:

The way you asked me and Prism to respond to each other is something that I think could be improved on. Normally, you don't want to ask people to make cases on each other. From my POV, Prism was confirmed scum so anything I say about him at that point would be conf-bias and not a genuine case. Since I'm approaching the case with inside knowledge of already knowing the answer, it would look a lot like a scum case. What you did (tell us not to defend ourselves) was actually something that would have been more useful because explaining why my slot is town would have been good. In fact, I don't suggest asking people to respond to each other at all. Asking us direct questions and interacting with us would have been much better. I didn't want to talk to confirmed scum. I wanted to talk to you directly so bring up points that you thought were convincing.

Anyways, that's just my perspective. It's debatable whether asking two people to make cases on each other in lylo is a good thing and if that helps you, I suppose you should go for it. But normally I think it won't.

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Post Post #3488  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:04 pm

@BV What kinds of things can be AI lines of questioning?

Grendel
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Post Post #3489  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:33 pm

In post 3479, Dierfire wrote:@Grendel
In post 3478, Grendel wrote:It seemed like Dierfire only voted me for an apparent PoE for the entirety of the day. I thought that was really lazy from my PoV.

You're not wrong! It was a fairly lazy way to work on my part. I was not really an asset to the Town in this game--my apologies.


Well you helped get boring, and Luv lynched!

I wish we worked together more this game tbh. Maybe we would have realized we were both town.

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Post Post #3490  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:00 pm

In post 2330, Grendel wrote:Consider how much I value meta, do you really think I'd soil my ability to self meta in future by using it as scum?


I think that this was my biggest regret this game.

It was a cheap move on my part. And I would have felt bad later if I got town cred for it.

Getting scum read for what would have been a largely useless bus, (if I was maf), really got under my skin. Being accused for something that I've always been against practicing made me even more aggravated.

I think my biggest weakness as a player is that I don't handle fast, acute, unexpected pressure well. I always have these bad knee jerk reactions that put me in an even worst position then what I started from.

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Post Post #3491  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:42 pm

In post 10, Zoronos wrote:Oh man my first game in like a year.
Now I have to remember how to play.


I guess this draught was why Zoronos was using such outdated meta to gauge what was scummy and what was townie?

Really disappointed that Zoronos chose to site flake after being night killed. I legitimately wanted to talk about this game with him. While I think he played poorly this game, I wouldn't say he was a bad player in general. He seemed pretty experienced, competent, etc. If he wasn't so hung up on other's methods of approaching the game he might have done okay here. Or at least not scum read somebody for ignoring his advice on mafia theory lol.

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Post Post #3492  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:36 am

In post 3472, podoboq wrote:
In post 3470, Shadow_step wrote:Two of the same roles being town is really really bad though and I didn't expect them in a mini normal. Cause they can lead to back to back mislynches.
Imagine Eager and I both making it to day 3 and neither of us had claimed ascetic. Under l-1 he claims ascetic. I CC him, he flips gown I get lynched next.
Stay tuned for the setup review, where people much more experienced than either of us have this conversation and come to a very different conclusion.


I'm not on the review team, but I feel like it's generally considered likely that both ascetic roles claim early D1, and the simple nature of that claim largely clears each other.
*checks review thread, sees that's not what actually was theorized, lol smith*

Honestly, looking at the setup I think the only way scum team has a realistic chance is if the two ascetics mislynch each other, because town has a LOT of power here, and a double ascetic clear turns the mislynch pool into a very small group (even more so since the cop isn't ever going to check the ascetics, which means that cop/deputy only needs to not die or get jk'd). Like, if the cop clears a VT on N1, then unless scum run the table on mislynching all of the vanilla townies, or mislynch a PR (and cop/jk/deputy claims are hard mislynches), they no longer have a path to victory, and that's assuming they only kill PRs and not VTs.

So basically on a fundamental level the whole thing was super swingy as to whether town realized that the ascetics really were ascetics, since two ascetic mislynches makes the game pretty easy for scum, and the ascetics becoming self-confirmed via claim makes the game pretty easy for town.
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Post Post #3493  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:38 am

And looking at results, waht actually happened was one ascetic got mislynched, and the other didn't. Interesting I guess.
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Post Post #3494  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:55 am

Yes. One ascetic claimed at day start. The other ascetic and thought the first one was gambiting scum. He stalked him all day 1 trying to figure out who his partners were and then counter-claimed ascetic half-way through Day 1. The first ascetic advocated they were both town by the nature of his cc. It is exactly right to say "the ascetics being self confirmed via claim makes the game pretty easy for town" as it would have been easy had the second ascetic and a couple others believed in them both being town. Also spot on saying two ascetics mislynches makes it easy for scum as that would have put them nearly in lylo. As it happened, it took all 3 scum on the wagon to finally lynch the first ascetic D1. However the other ascetic who counterclaimed was still pretty much conf town by the nature of his claim so only 1/2 of the ascetics ended up being lynched. Cop investigated a townie N1 and a goon lynched day 2. The cop was then killed n2. Due to a questionable mass claim decision d3, and following a townies lynch, the deputy was rendered irrelevant as they were eliminated n3. The neopolitan was lynched day 4 and the jail keeper was taken out n4. Following a d5 townie lynch and the death of another townie n5, one goon, one townie, and one town ascetic were left in a final lylo situation. After two weeks of deliberation, the ascetic and townie vote to lynch the last goon to win the game. It was a close game that could have easily gone either way

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Post Post #3495  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:09 am

Currently looking for reviewers, a backup mod, and a flavor writer for a Magic: the Gathering flavored Large Theme. PM if interested.

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Post Post #3496  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:42 am

Scum can do all kinds of shit, so not lynching a CC because "lol how can this be so easy?" is WIFOM
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Post Post #3497  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:08 pm

To nominate this game and any players or mods in it, please see the Scummies nomination thread.

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