Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[Foxbird]

MathBlade has been killed.

They were a

Town Innocent Child

.

_ _ _

It is now Day 6.

The day will end in

(expired on 2016-12-18 06:16:19).

[Foxbird]

Votecount 6.1

Not Voting

(4) - Saru, karnos, PenguinPower, bji

With

4

players eligible to vote, it’s

3

to lynch!

Day 6 will end in

(expired on 2016-12-18 06:16:19).

Mod Notes:

None!

[Saru]

VOTE: PenguinPower

[PenguinPower]

Always a great idea to throw down a vote in MyLo before discussion. Sara is totes scum.

I would, however, like to debate the idea of a no lynch today. 95% chance that means bji dies tonight, but it at least gets that 5% chance out of the way that he's been playing us all.

[karnos]

It's up to bji, pretty much. I think penguin is the scum, but town needs to be 100% united for this lynch so we'll see how bji views the game.

[PenguinPower]

Just FYI, since I'm responding to Saru today...Your comment on me defending Thor making me scum...I have never once, as scum, defended any of my partners. Ever. I have only ever hard bussed them, except for the one newbie I replaced in (karnos was town in that one). Still didn't defend my buddy, just didn't bus.

Feel free to meta me - which town should do if town doesn't want to lose.

[karnos]

Penguin has been playing the long con, waiting for this one game to play against his self-imposed meta.

Half serious here. I don't think meta arguments mean much when they are brought up by the person who they personally benefit.

[karnos]

But I'm truly on the fence. It could be Saru, he was acting hella scummy on day 1.

Question is what is more likely: penguin defending his partner, or Saru pushing my wagon with his partner.

[bji]

Always a great idea to throw down a vote in MyLo before discussion. Sara is totes scum.

If it doesn't make sense, why is scum more likely to do it than town? Are you saying that scum is looking for a reason to make nonsensical plays and draw your attention?

I would, however, like to debate the idea of a no lynch today. 95% chance that means bji dies tonight, but it at least gets that 5% chance out of the way that he's been playing us all.

Surely just typing that last sentence already made you realize how entirely based on WIFOM this line of thinking is. I.e. if scum really did believe that you thought that I was guaranteed scum if I lived until tomorrow, then of course they'd just let me live until tomorrow for the guaranteed win via my mislynch.

The correct argument for a NL is that it

in theory

makes the analysis easier for each town player, as each town player only has two other players to evaluate. This really depends upon the dynamics of the players involved though; are you

sure

that the two remaining town tomorrow will be better at identifying scum than the three we have today? Also, it also means that a single town player can lose the game via a single bad vote whereas today we need two town players voting wrong to lose.

Based on the above, I'm not willing to call a NL a net positive for town at this point.

[bji]

But I'm truly on the fence. It could be Saru, he was acting hella scummy on day 1.

So what do you think changed after day 1? I notice this:

Your debate with Saru is becoming very much white noise to me. I do tend to agree with his stance, because you appear to be more emotionally worked up, and I think his point about suggesting his scum read on you is based on you beating him elsewhere is pretty plainly fabricated (feel free to explain how it's a valid issue if you can - it looks like flail to me).

Are you calling Saru scummy?
If not, can we drop the debate and/or simply focus on what he's calling you scummy over?

@Saru - same goes for you, let's just pretend you bested Karnos on all the piddly points, and narrow down those walls by about half, yeah?

In the scenario where Saru is scum, and the Tracer/Thor slot is scum, this is scum!Thor telling Saru to back off because he is drawing too much attention to himself and he will be the next one lynched after I flip town.

Do you have an explanation for Saru's behavior post Thor's flip that fits this narrative?

[bji]

Penguin has been playing the long con, waiting for this one game to play against his self-imposed meta.

Half serious here. I don't think meta arguments mean much when they are brought up by the person who they personally benefit.

I agree with this 100%.

Just FYI, since I'm responding to Saru today...Your comment on me defending Thor making me scum...I have never once, as scum, defended any of my partners. Ever. I have only ever hard bussed them, except for the one newbie I replaced in (karnos was town in that one). Still didn't defend my buddy, just didn't bus.

Feel free to meta me - which town should do if town doesn't want to lose.

Spoiler: Sorry penguin, this part is a bit wall-ish

Yeah, I don't want to lose, but there's only so far I'm willing to go in a friendly game like this. Reading through thousands of pages of old games of other players is not something I'm going to do.

The thing about penguin is, he seems to invoke a lot of "do this [impossible thing] if you don't want town to lose" type arguments. I suppose everyone does that from time to time, but for penguin it seems to be a pattern. The reason I don't like these statements is that they feel a bit gamed. I can see them being a setup where you can later say, "but how can you believe I'm scum if you didn't do the [impossible thing] that I asked you to do to verify that I'm town?", or even if it never gets to a specific exchange like that, town players may subconsciously feel that X has been proven just because they know that they didn't do the thing they were asked to do to prove X so out of a sense of 'fairness' they may be more likely to just believe 'X', as in, "it's not fair of me to think that penguin is scum when he told me what to do to verify that he's town and I was too lazy to do it."

Another big example of that was the "someone please hammer me" dramatics at the end of day ... what was it? Day 4? When penguin was at L-1 and Math held the hammer and penguin was spouting all of this emotion and asking for people to hammer him to put him out of his misery and also saying that he should just hammer himself. Well, he must have known that no town player was going to hammer him with a confirmed IC having asked to hold the hammer and having been granted it, so what was the point of those dramatics? It feels like the same kind of psychological manipulation.

[PenguinPower]

Well, if you aren't going to, go ahead and lynch me so the game can be over. Please don't drag this day out.

Still think we should no lynch today.

[Saru]

Well, if you aren't going to, go ahead and lynch me so the game can be over. Please don't drag this day out.

Still think we should no lynch today.

No offense to bji, but I don't see Penguin necessarily being lynched tomorrow.

Instead, I predict more flailing and emotional BS that will let him win it all.

I would not be a happy camper. But hey, I would love to be wrong.

lmfao this guy has zero arguments and is just hoping town starts doubting itself with his emotional crap. I've done that before as scum. Almost worked like a charm in my last scum game against rb.

And btw, responding to one of my SEVERAL arguments against you with meta is so bad. Like, hey, if you're going to use meta, then I can do the same, but it's useless. According to you, I've been bussing both my partners all game, but my last and only scum game on here shows that I never bus my scum partners, even when it would have been beneficial. The scum chat was sealed, but half of it is my partners and I talking about how stupid bussing is. Oh, hey, guess I'm town then!?

I agree with Penguin on one thing: let's not drag the day out. Like I said yesterday, any discussion to be had could have happened yesterday, but Penguin purposely chose to ignore me and is now trying for a hail mary today that he hopes to land. Don't let him, thanks.

[Saru]

I would, however, like to debate the idea of a no lynch today. 95% chance that means bji dies tonight, but it at least gets that 5% chance out of the way that he's been playing us all.

More like "I want to get bji out of the way because he's harder to convince than Karnos."

[PenguinPower]

100% confident Saru is scum now.

I'm done, and quite honestly nothing I say will make a difference at this point. karnos and bji can decide what to do.

Saru is blacklisted for me. Totally an not-fun game when this guy posts.

VOTE: Saru

[Saru]

100% confident Saru is scum now.

I'm done, and quite honestly nothing I say will make a difference at this point. karnos and bji can decide what to do.

Saru is blacklisted for me. Totally an not-fun game when this guy posts.

VOTE: Saru

lololol keep it up. You're only proving my point for me. I love when scum freaks out when I nail them.

Oh, and you're only NOW 100% confident I'm scum? What about yesterday? Oh right, you were just making shit up yesterday.

[Saru]

Like, who blacklists another person in a mafia game for playing...the game? lmfao this is some straight up scum AtE. So funny.

[karnos]

100% confident Saru is scum now.

I'm done, and quite honestly nothing I say will make a difference at this point. karnos and bji can decide what to do.

Saru is blacklisted for me. Totally an not-fun game when this guy posts.

VOTE: Saru

I don't get this.

I mean, usually you blacklist someone for playing in a scummy way as town. If Saru is playing in scummy way while he is actually scum, whats wrong with that?

It sounds almost like a slip that you know he is town...

[PenguinPower]

Has nothing to do with how he plays re: alignment. Has everything to do with his post style making me want to rage quit. I find that unejoyable and do not want to play in future games with him. I'd replace out if we weren't on the last day. Game was nice when he was lurking.

[Saru]

Stop crying and get over yourself. I understand it hurts when you finally get caught, but that's no reason to blacklist someone. You spent the whole game with no suspicion on you, and as soon as someone does, you get like triggered or something. Don't play mafia if you can't handle it.

[Saru]

Game was nice when he was lurking.

Yeah, must be real nice when no one calls you out on your BS.

[karnos]

Do you have an explanation for Saru's behavior post Thor's flip that fits this narrative?

I don't know.

It can go either way. From Thor's PoV, white knighting town Saru is advantageous, as is white knighting scum-partner Saru, so I just don't know.

[karnos]

I re-read most of Saru's iso. not going to do a line by line wall post response, I just don't have the energy for that.

Ultimately, my conclusion: I don't know. Saru's snap change against Thor reeks of scum realizing the ship is sinking and it's time to bus a partner. But then he has a lot of strong interactions against Lowell before the Lowell lynch is the only obvious choice. I also see a few posts that I don't see typical scum doing, like an early post defending Nero's weird initial reads list.

OTOH, I have Penguins snap change in reads of me, from town to scum, and then apparently back again after he couldn't get traction on lynching me. Penguin had virtually the same post defending Nero's reads list. Penguin voted Saru over Thor when both had wagons.

After reading through Saru & Penguin, while my Saru read is still pretty foggy, I'm more confident in a Scum!Penguin. Maybe a 60/40 lean. I always worry of bias, but in this case both have tried to get me lynched this game so hopefully the bias is cancelled out.

This particular series of posts is what pushed penguin into being my choice for scum, rather than just a coin flip:

1269
This doesn't make sense if you were so strongly scumreading Thor. Why would he be able to convince you of anything (not too mention it didn't really look like he was pushing the wagon that hard)? You also didn't answer why scum!Thor would have potentially bussed scum!malp when he was one of the smallest wagons at the point he hopped on.

You're breaking my heart, karnos.

1289
Dude. Chill out. 14 hours left and Thor already said he wouldn't claim (unless you actually expressed some effort). I think we can give it a bit more time. Still, you're lynching a soft PR claim (same as FA btw).

1320
Can we please hop on the bji wagon now?

1324
Well, I'm certainly not lynching Thor. Strongest toweread claims PR...yeah. This bji wagon is awesome though. More people should join.

1338
Damn it, Thor. You always fool me.

VOTE: Thor

1474
VOTE: karnos

Breaking my heart.

It's just so much resistance to a Thor lynch, including hard pushes to switch to the bji wagon, followed by a switch to voting me... because I hammered scum!Thor? I doesn't make a whole lot of sense from town.

Penguin: what happened to wanting to lynch bji? When did your read of him change?

[PenguinPower]

Penguin: what happened to wanting to lynch bji? When did your read of him change?

When Thor flipped scum. Sorry I had a strong townread on Thor until the bad fake claim...he's one player that I really struggle with given our first game together, and my inability to play emotionlessly. That's also why I struggle - as town - in games with you given my lack of ability to play solely on logic. Even now, I'm not 100% confident that you aren't the last scum...just more confident in Saru.

Also, I don't see why 1289 and 1324 are bad from a town!penguin point of view if Thor is a strong townread. Your comment about me voting you simply because you hammered Thor is disingenuous and has been explained in this thread.

[bji]

100% confident Saru is scum now.

I'm done, and quite honestly nothing I say will make a difference at this point. karnos and bji can decide what to do.

Saru is blacklisted for me. Totally an not-fun game when this guy posts.

VOTE: Saru

This feels like more of that appeal to emotion stuff that I talked about before.

You know how Lowell was just reeking of that scum-treading-water-just-waiting-for-the-hammer feeling? I get that same vibe here.

I feel pretty confident in Karnos town. Saru is pretty confident in penguin scum, and I actually trust both of these players more than I trust penguin at this point in the game. So Karnos if you're scum then gg man, you definitely had me fooled.

VOTE: PenguinPower