Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

mhsmith0
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Post Post #3850  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:50 pm

FWIW, 3x masons in a 10v3 has been run twice before (that I can tell)

1758 - same setup as this, town win in 3p LYLO
1767 - town adds a universal backup (so effectively FOUR masons), scum adds a neapolitan, town win in final 7

so generically speaking, though obviously the sample size is ridiculously small, I don't really think there's any kind of apparent setup balance issue
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mastin2
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Post Post #3851  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:54 pm

In post 3848, mhsmith0 wrote:I'd actually say that holding it for the last mason alive, as mentioned in dead thread, is actually most optimal given that theory role. But then again no one really grilled him on why he didn't do that instead, so *shrugs*
That, too.

After he claimed 1x-Bodyguard, and he said he still had his shot, IF people wanted to believe him, they should have flat-out told him: don't use it while both masons are alive. Use it when there's only one left.

And that way, when the mason failed to die, or the mason did die, there would be reason to cast a really strong suspicion on Cloud. (Because no way do we give the scum a 1x strongman or a 1x roleblocker against a 1x BG. NO reviewer would EVER pass that. So, failure to protect would be a scumclaim. Failure to die wouldn't necessarily be a scumclaim...but then you have the mason alive an extra day, and the nagging question of WHY both the mason and the BG are alive.)

So yeah. Optimal play with a 1x BG that still has that shot is to wait until there's only one mason left and to use it then.

I don't really blame people for not bringing this up, though--this isn't exactly theory 101. It might not be the most advance thing in the world (concepts like hunting motivation are higher-level than this I'd say, for instance), but it's like...theory 202 at the least.
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mhsmith0
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Post Post #3852  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:57 pm

I mean it's basically "you have a PR, ok what did you do with the PR and why did you do it" and really focus in on whether the story holds together.

Like, you have a vig who might be an SK, and then you grill on why he took those shots.
You have a tracker, why did you track that person at that time.

etc
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BlackVoid
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Post Post #3853  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:00 pm

I figured I'd get killed N3 if we did that. If I didn't claim, I'd almost certainly have been killed anyways since they knew I was a Mason. I wanted to stay alive an extra day to hopefully lynch scum and we did lynch MariaR so it wasn't a waste. I was more active than Arona so I thought I could influence the lynch more. If I wasn't there, I don't know what would have happened. Rask probably would have decided the lynches which I guess would be fine. He'd have gone for Fitz before MariaR I think but his reads weren't all that bad.

In that scenario, it would have been:
D4: Lynch Fitz
N4: Kill Jaack (Cloud would say he protected Arona)
D5: Lynch MariaR
N5: Kill Arona
D6: Three way between Rask, Creature, and Cloud

I don't know if it would have been significantly better than what happened from a technical standpoint. Either they buy that Cloud delayed a mason kill for a day or they don't. Which is a similar decision that Fitz and Creature had to make in lylo.

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Post Post #3854  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:03 pm

I think the real screwup was lynching Hoopla. That's my regret this game.

TwoFace
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Post Post #3855  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:21 pm

In post 3854, BlackVoid wrote:I think the real screwup was lynching Hoopla. That's my regret this game.

Meh. She didn't have a great game.

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Post Post #3856  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:22 pm

Can I know what I did wrong this game I feel like at the end I was stuck in a loop and couldn't do much this was def one of my meh scum games
I bet Maria is scum this game~Firebringer
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Post Post #3857  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:28 pm

In post 3856, MariaR wrote:Can I know what I did wrong this game I feel like at the end I was stuck in a loop and couldn't do much this was def one of my meh scum games

Honestly, part of my scumread on you was influenced by seeing your townplay in podoboq's game. There you made sense especially when Eagersnake was getting wagoned and suspected Boring so I had you as a townread pretty early on. You might say that you never defend partners before but there's a first time for everything and the way you dug your heels in and defended Sotty7 didn't feel genuine and it didn't show the same depth of thought I expected from you as town. I think if you were town, you would have at least some concerns about Sotty7.

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Post Post #3858  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:39 pm

noted ty
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Post Post #3859  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:47 pm

Defending sotty and calling bv scum when it was obvious he was mason.

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Post Post #3860  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:51 pm

In post 3856, MariaR wrote:Can I know what I did wrong this game I feel like at the end I was stuck in a loop and couldn't do much this was def one of my meh scum games


I was townreading you for most of the game, so I'm not sure if my view will help much, but I think you ended up with the wrong allies. After D2 when your strongest townread was flipped scum and your two strongest scumreads up until that point were townblocked, you were doomed to the PoE monster.

As for myself, I'm still angry with myself for not continuing with my cloud push D3 after the claim. I didn't really buy it and I didn't have any other strong scumreads but I talked myself into it.

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Post Post #3861  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:17 pm

The fuck is this setup
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Post Post #3862  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:21 pm

I still prefer setups with investigative roles, aka if you're known for being good at scum, you might be screwed.
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Post Post #3863  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:22 pm

I can think of some fixes to this setup tbh. Maybe I'll run it myself.
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Post Post #3864  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:31 pm

In post 3862, Creature wrote:I still prefer setups with investigative roles, aka if you're known for being good at scum, you might be screwed.

*waves*
I bet Maria is scum this game~Firebringer
Na Maria isn't towny enough to be scum this game~ Charloux

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Post Post #3865  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:38 pm

In post 3826, I Am Innocent wrote:Thanks to the mod for a fun game!

Overall enjoyed the game and most of the player list. Happy my reads came together day 2, and after Sotty's flip I had enough town reads, as listed in the mason thread, to win the game (jack, rask, creature, mason partners). As I said in the dead thread, the key to the game was not telling a 1 shot BG to save his shot for when there was only one mason left. Would have put cloud in an awkward situation.


I had planned to say that i used it n2 and that i was lying all game just to get nkd

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Post Post #3866  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:47 pm

In post 3846, mhsmith0 wrote:Cloud was also kinda nakedly pursuing his wincon by forcing through a rask lynch d5 since that rask-creature mutual town block HAD to go via lynch or they'd be in f3 on him or he'd have to make an obvious motive shot to break them up.


To be honest, i went thought that going after rask gave me all the good possibilities.
1) it was towny to keep the same fos imo
2) if rask ended up not gettin lynched, i would have a really good reason to not be dead
3) i refused a gm, hoop and creature lynch in the process, i had to pro-town to get to rask

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Post Post #3867  (ISO)  » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:47 pm

In post 3847, mastin2 wrote:Also, Cloud claimed to have not used the shot on like D3 or so.

The masons were outed D1.

That alone should have been evidence Cloud was faking it--a real 1x bodyguard, post-mason claim, would have used the shot up immediately.
The reason Cloud didn't claim to have used up the shot is because Cloud needed to be "helpful"--he needed to be relevant. He needed to have his shot be available, so that his life held meaning. A bodyguard who has used up their shot(s) and is still alive is 'too convenient', and would be lynched...but the fact of the matter is, a real town bodyguard would have used their protection WELL before Cloud claimed to have.

I could be mistaken since I didn't read the full game, but I don't think anyone grilled him on this, so much as asking, "So...why do you still have that shot?"

I can understand the thought of not using an X-shot role on N1 if there is no information available. But not using it for TWO days, when there IS information available, was basically a scumclaim in of itself.


i was planning on saying that i lied, i planned that before my claim

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Post Post #3868  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:44 am

In post 3837, mhsmith0 wrote:I did think it was funny how bbt, debatably the best town player on the board, replaces out, flips town via GreyICE lynch, and is never mentioned or read again.

Jaack also had an great day one. He only voted for me and Cloud yet we still won. We'll never know what would have happened if BBT stuck around.

I don't like the set up. It's probably balanced sure, as a scum player I don't like it. Personal preference.

Great scum win by both Maria and Cloud, I'm impressed by both of them. The fact that so many people are saying it was "obvious" what the set up was or whatever, just shows what a great job they did to hide in the town for as long as they did. Cloud had me worried when he vanished end of day one but he turned it around and thought did really well to win this for us in LYLO. Maria was great too, helped me keep my head when it looked like I was crashing out hard on day one.

Enjoyed playing with a lot of this town, Rask and Blackvoid are two people I had never played with before and would love to play with again. Thanks for modding mhsmith, I had a stressful yet enjoyable time!

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Post Post #3869  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:44 am

In post 3837, mhsmith0 wrote:I did think it was funny how bbt, debatably the best town player on the board, replaces out, flips town via GreyICE lynch, and is never mentioned or read again.

Jaack also had an great day one. He only voted for me and Cloud yet we still won. We'll never know what would have happened if BBT stuck around.

I don't like the set up. It's probably balanced sure, as a scum player I don't like it. Personal preference.

Great scum win by both Maria and Cloud, I'm impressed by both of them. The fact that so many people are saying it was "obvious" what the set up was or whatever, just shows what a great job they did to hide in the town for as long as they did. Cloud had me worried when he vanished end of day one but he turned it around and thought did really well to win this for us in LYLO. Maria was great too, helped me keep my head when it looked like I was crashing out hard on day one.

Enjoyed playing with a lot of this town, Rask and Blackvoid are two people I had never played with before and would love to play with again. Thanks for modding mhsmith, I had a stressful yet enjoyable time!

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Post Post #3870  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:31 am

Yeah, I'd love to play with you too Sotty7, hopefully with both of us being town.

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Post Post #3871  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:24 pm

Well an open setup run as a closed setup is not a good idea, and I feel like this illustrates why. Having an open setup is a town power role. Cloud probably dies without his claim, and that's game.
Of course as I said in the dead thread, Masons v. Mafia comes down to the strength of the Masons vs. the strength of the mafia, with VTs not playing a huge part, and here there was no question the mafia were much better than the masons.

Well played to Sotty and Maria, although I feel like if Victor/IAI weren't scumming it up I'd have had a better shot of catching you.

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Post Post #3872  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:25 pm

In post 3871, GreyICE wrote:here there was no question the mafia were much better than the masons.

agreed

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Post Post #3873  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:55 pm

I read the dead thread and feel like i got trashed around quite a bit for no reason. I tried my best with the little experience i had, no reason to insult me or imply anything just because my claim wasnt optimal.

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Post Post #3874  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:45 pm

A lot of people dislike the "oh my god I'm so random you can't predict me so don't try" when it turns out you're scum. It's the sort of shit that works exactly once, because no one who plays with you here will ever let you get away with it again, and if that means mislynch so be it.

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