Normal 1934: Civilization Mafia Mafia (Endgame)

[Korts]

This.

Sup

VOTE: Robbnva for not voting. We must have blood.

This feels like Percy wants to blend in during RVS but he wants to make his RVS the least suspicious so he throws in a little reason on it.

Kinda felt like Robb was into something. Curious to why he didn't want to pursue it just because there's "limited posts and lack of cares right now." (Just because we're in the RVS stage, I guess.)

Hm. Okay. What about Ginggie's vote, then? How about Aristo's? Or Tchill's? They gave "reasons" too.

[PersephoneSidekick]

I didn't argue anything actually. I asked you a simple question.

You chose to use something game related to vote me, asking you to explain your vote is perfectly acceptable response.

you claim it was rvs, but according to my definition of rvs, it wasn't.

Also I don't really buy the whole "see if his reaction would be useful" because you have to have a familiarity with me to know how I would react as town and scum, and you don't.

my apologies for calling you he, I have issues with pronouns all the time. I will try not to make that mistake again.

There hasn't been enough from you to determine if you are scum or town yet, so I won't put you at L-1 but you are definitely on my radar. Let's see if your play improves.

I don't care what your "definition" of RVS is. And the reaction test isn't just for my benefit; 11 other people will be able to read everything we say. I mean what else is there to do interpret each other's reactions to things, this early?

[Korts]

Hey Persephone, why did you dismiss Robb's challenge of your vote with "lol RVS"? What did you hope to achieve?

[RadiantCowbells]

I dont know. Refusing to read up is super-lame regardless.

Don't be super-lame kids. Everyone who is anyone has read all 87 pages of the game in the first two days.

Civilization Mafia Mafia:

Votecount 1.03:

PersephoneSidekick (4): Kaboose, Dark Horse, humaneatingmonkey, Robbnva
Robbnva (3): PersephoneSidekick, massive, Tchill13
Aristophanes (2): Draynth, Korts
humaneatingmonkey (1): Ginngie
massive (1): Aristophanes
nancy (0):
Korts (0):
Ginngie (0):
Draynth (0):
Kaboose (0):
Dark Horse (0):
Assemblerotws (0):
Tchill13 (0):

Not Voting: Assemblerotws, nancy

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.

The day has begun and will end in (expired on 2017-08-13 23:00:00).

Spoiler: Remaining Posts:

Korts: 95
Ginngie: 98
Aristophanes: 99
humaneatingmonkey: 90
PersephoneSidekick: 92
Draynth: 99
Robbnva: 89
Kaboose: 98
massive: 97
Dark Horse: 96
Assemblerotws: 100
nancy: 97
Tchill13: 97

[Robbnva]

if you say so

I feel better about my vote the more you post

[humaneatingmonkey]

@Percy: Sorry for not addressing you properly. My native language has no separate pronouns for men and women so it gets confusing.

Tchill's vote switch sucked.
So is Massive's vote. Condescending is not scummy?
Korts, Percy's vote was out of place because it's an actual reason. A real reason. Not a joke reason.
Dark Horse, I mean Percy's reaction was only more scummy after the fact that she tried to vote with reason. Then pass it off as RVS. Look at how she explained it in #42
Percy is scummy. But I have to place my vote to someone more scummy that she is.

VOTE: TChill

VOTE: PersephoneSidekick

Just helping the wagon along.

Honestly I feel like the reason for the wagon building on them right now is pretty stupid.

VOTE: robbnva

????????

Who's them TChill? Percy and Robb? So why cast your vote there? And for what reason?

[humaneatingmonkey]

if you say so

I feel better about my vote the more you post

So get her posting more.

[PersephoneSidekick]

Hey Persephone, why did you dismiss Robb's challenge of your vote with "lol RVS"? What did you hope to achieve?

That was meant as a flippant attack rather than a flippant defense actually. Like "why are you being so defensive about an RVS" was roughly the intended meaning. Tone is really hard in text. It wasn't a super calculated move beyond just wanting to keep poking at the little micro-conflict in the hopes that it would produce something useful to me or (more realistically) more experienced people than me. I made myself resist the urge to actually justify myself until morning because defusing the conflict early would waste the opportunity to use it to end RVS.

Ultimately, I consider my approach vindicated by the fact that it produced a wagon to talk about, even if it's on me. Unless I actually get lynched it will totally have been worth it.

[PersephoneSidekick]

Is it considered actively better to vote for a blatant joke reason in RVS than for a reason that is "real" but blatantly insufficient, and if so, why? Real question; it's my first non-newbie game.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Hey Persephone, why did you dismiss Robb's challenge of your vote with "lol RVS"? What did you hope to achieve?

That was meant as a flippant attack rather than a flippant defense actually. Like "why are you being so defensive about an RVS" was roughly the intended meaning. Tone is really hard in text. It wasn't a super calculated move beyond just wanting to keep poking at the little micro-conflict in the hopes that it would produce something useful to me or (more realistically) more experienced people than me. I made myself resist the urge to actually justify myself until morning because defusing the conflict early would waste the opportunity to use it to end RVS.

Ultimately, I consider my approach vindicated by the fact that it produced a wagon to talk about, even if it's on me. Unless I actually get lynched it will totally have been worth it.

This smells like fake news. "Haha I meant to do that all along." does not match what looked like a genuine reaction to an unexpected inquiry by Robb.

Fake news. Bad.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Is it considered actively better to vote for a blatant joke reason in RVS than for a reason that is "real" but blatantly insufficient, and if so, why? Real question; it's my first non-newbie game.

Irrelevant question. Nothing is better. Whatever you do, if you're scummy, people will call you out on it. Just do whatever you think is best to do as town. This is hard to fake if you're scum. People can smell fake and fake attempts. So if you're trying to fake something, you're probably scum. And people will call you out on it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Please avoid multi-posts guys!

[PersephoneSidekick]

Is it considered actively better to vote for a blatant joke reason in RVS than for a reason that is "real" but blatantly insufficient, and if so, why? Real question; it's my first non-newbie game.

Irrelevant question. Nothing is better. Whatever you do, if you're scummy, people will call you out on it. Just do whatever you think is best to do as town. This is hard to fake if you're scum. People can smell fake and fake attempts. So if you're trying to fake something, you're probably scum. And people will call you out on it.

I'm mostly just trying to separate the accusations from any criticisms of my playstyle from a practical level, so that I know what to ignore/defend against and what to learn from. As far as I knew I had done something considered bad for town based on community consensus from long experience and was being read as scum for violating that consensus.

[humaneatingmonkey]

VOTE: PersephoneSidekick

Changed my mind again. This is scum.

[Korts]

Korts, Percy's vote was out of place because it's an actual reason. A real reason. Not a joke reason.

a) Whoever gave you the idea that reasons can only be joke reasons?
b) What made you think that this was a serious reason?

For what it's worth, I thought the initial reason Persephone gave had some potential to go somewhere (i.e. Robb not voting in so-called RVS robs the town of information on him later down the line). It's not really the reason, but the follow-up "lol RVS" dismissal that stinks to me. So it also stinks to me that you would focus on that reason, when, for example, Aristophanes' is a direct scumtell and isn't just "too well thought out for the game phase" or however else to put your argument against Percy.

Good point about Tchill's unexplained wagon hopping, though.

Is it considered actively better to vote for a blatant joke reason in RVS than for a reason that is "real" but blatantly insufficient, and if so, why? Real question; it's my first non-newbie game.

Not necessarily. It is, however, highly impolite and counterproductive to dismiss arguments by referring to RVS, because RVS is a crutch, a myth, and a concept I wish had never been introduced to this game.

Also, Persephone, it is good to know that you welcome the wagon that you invited on yourself so long as the town has something to talk about - but you are not helping anyone if you just sit there explaining yourself and nothing more. Stop reacting, and start participating in the hunt if you are town, or if you want to sell yourself as town. That's all the advice you get.

Is it considered actively better to vote for a blatant joke reason in RVS than for a reason that is "real" but blatantly insufficient, and if so, why? Real question; it's my first non-newbie game.

Irrelevant question. Nothing is better. Whatever you do, if you're scummy, people will call you out on it. Just do whatever you think is best to do as town. This is hard to fake if you're scum. People can smell fake and fake attempts. So if you're trying to fake something, you're probably scum. And people will call you out on it.

My god, the bullshit logic. This is, at best, wishful thinking - but it also just sounds like you're trying to pin Persephone down at every turn.

VOTE: monkey

[humaneatingmonkey]

Nah. Ari and I have history. I'm also no stranger to his friendship with nancy.

Korts, what do you think RVS should look like then? And what kind of gain would you think I would get if ever I pin Percy right now at every turn? She does seem very very scummy being too wary what the town thinks about her and asking for what behavior is acceptable for town. What do you think about my thoughts about her?

[Korts]

Nah. Ari and I have history. I'm also no stranger to his friendship with nancy.

Uhh, okay? None of that is important to me at all. I am not genuinely pursuing the Ari angle. I am simply baffled that you think RVS is for jokes.

Which is not to say that RVS cannot have jokes. Jokes are fine, but they do not move the game forward. Finding something that sticks out (like someone who didn't vote, for example) gets the ball rolling in a more constructive way - although, of course, letting it go at the first sign of pushback is pretty dumb.

What do I think RVS should look like? I mean, pretty much the same, except people wouldn't be referring to RVS all the goddamn time. Let's be honest, there is no real randomness involved, not really, and it's not even a real game stage, because once everyone has made a

more or less arbitrary

starting vote, the foundation is already there for actual play to commence.

I prefer to think of the game in terms of the amount of information available. In the beginning, we only have the mod's declarations. Then a first

arbitrary

vote, and whatever bullshit reason provided. Then someone else riffs off that or makes their own

arbitrary

vote and bullshit reason, and so on.

What do I think of your thoughts on Persephone? I thought I made myself clear. I think your "reason" argument is bullshit. I don't think you have anything else, other than a vague accusation of "fakeness."

[Korts]

Which is not to say that I don't think Persephone isn't suspcious independent of your arguments. Her play has been pretty poor so far - but yours can be characterized more specifically as opportunistic.

[Dark Horse]

Meh, if this is PS' first non newbie game I can understand her being self-conscious about being scumread. Not caring about people's read on you comes with confidence in your ability to not get lynched and new players are frequently not the biggest sources of confidence.

VOTE: TChill the massive sheeping is wack

[Korts]

Imma quote these from the previous page:

Hi nancy. This vote is to add weight to the Robbinva-PersephoneSidekick conflict. Basically, I want them to squabble while I observe from a distance.

Town.

Sounds scummy as if instigating a fight, but townAF for honesty

How much do you trust that read?

monkey is stirring shit and openly challenging townreads on himself, like what the hell, dude?

This wagon is the real shit, guys. Hop on.

[Dark Horse]

Ginngie's reason for the town read are really weak though. Monkey has a point there

[Korts]

Well yeah, but it reads like a deliberate mind fuck attempt. I hate using the term WIFOM almost as much as RVS, but this is a text book example if there ever was one.

[PersephoneSidekick]

Okay, so I'm reading Robbnva as more weirdly dogmatic than opportunistic or anything. Monkey might be being opportunistic but the basis of his read on me is actually pretty reasonable even if the conclusion is incorrect. And from scums point of view right now, an early mislynch against me is probably unlikely though they could be setting up a later one. But if I were scum I'd be trying to hang back and let this conversation continue to be not about me, maybe even defend me. I feel like monkey is exposing himself a lot early for if he was scum.

OTOH is it normal to not announce L-1 in non-newbie games. Because if not then he could have been seriously hoping for a derphammer. Otherwise, I think he's town.

I don't really know who's scum and I don't really know how to find out other than evaluating other people's arguments and looking for slips and it's hard to evaluate arguments when I'm the main topic.

I guess I have some townreads and that's something. Like other than the above, I think that Korts's gamesolving looks genuine. I dunno about the rest and obviously we're waiting for some people to post.

[Assemblerotws]

VOTE: Monkey for deliberately messing with people and attempting to force someone who townread him into WIFOM.

[Aristophanes]

Hi all. I am a slow person with a day job, so please be mindful of your posting frequency. Thanks!

Hi DH and Draynth!
Nice votes you have/had there!

VOTE: massive

Nobody votes nancy on my watch!

(Also, v/la until Tuesday. Needed this in my Ego tho)

Ooh, a chainsaw defense right off the bat! Can you give me any pro-town argument for attacking nancy's wagon?

VOTE: Aristophanes

Oh my god Korts is here!!! =D

I had good reason to defend her! See: her posts so far this game.

nancy is a great player and a friend, so of course I came to the rescue