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Post Post #625 (ISO) » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:52 pm

Post by Toranaga »

In post 115, Misère wrote:
In post 98, Toranaga wrote:
In post 95, Misère wrote:I think humaneatingmonkey is town for taking an unpopular (because wrong, but still) stance w.r.t. WhyMafia's claim, and refusing to soften it under pressure. If he were scum hiding behind policy I would expect him to just say "oh, good point" and back down when everyone disagrees with him.
this is a great read on monkey and I agree with it. this is such a good post I wonder if you got there from a perspective of actually knowing he is town.
I don't know if I dislike this more for the scumread or for the bizarre appeal to my ego. This is not a hard read to get if you actually look at humaneatingmonkey's posts. Overall I don't scumread you though, it's just this one post that bothers me.

Incidentally, can you link to where it is you normally play?




Havo
has just fluffed his way through so far. His is chatter, his is chatter, his is IIoA, and his is parroting the town consensus on WhyMafia. I don't like this slot.

MariaR
is pretty bad too; her ISO consists mostly of excuses for not having reads and expressing surprise that anyone else does. I am pretty sure she has played on this site before, so there is nothing to be surprised about and this comes off disingenuous. There is something especially troublesome about :
In post 107, MariaR wrote:Pedit: I didn't mean worrying as in "wow you're scummy" I meant it in townreading people so easy isn't good at least in my mind because everyone has time to type out posts and plan and where your from that isn't really a thing. I know you just talked about your reads but more detail would be nice.
Maria could not really have meant this in since she didn't know where Toranaga had played previously or what sort of format it was.

skitter30
's replace-in has unfortunately robbed us of the chance to look at Robbnva's progression on WhyMafia. If Robb himself had reversed his position when the town consensus formed, that would be suspicious. Instead he transformed into a different person who has the opposite opinion on WhyMafia, and it's impossible to do anything with that. Frustrating.

As for
WhyMafia
himself, I am comfortable with giving him the benefit of the doubt. I am not comfortable with saying that claiming makes him town. I would like to see him actually offer some analysis of other slots instead of just talking about himself, now that it's obvious he's in no immediate danger of being lynched.
eh I actually have no problems with this post :P
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Post Post #626 (ISO) » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:39 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 539, Sergtacos wrote:Read his ISO and my case on him?

I had Robb on my lean town list until Skitter replaced in, yeah skitter looked scummy but I still need more posts from him to analyze. Skitter is on my lean scum list while Mulch and Chip is on my strong scum list.
That's weak if you can't describe it in one sentence you're wasting everyone's time.

Why did Robb lean town to you exactly?
In post 561, humaneatingmonkey wrote:Tornaga, if you read what he paraphrased the utility of his role, it doesn't make sense with the miller claim. The miller returns as a mafia, while the loyal cop only tells who doesn't belong to the alignment. The miller belongs to this alignment anyway, so normal cop would have been more than okay. I don't think the setup would have been approved otherwise but I'm in no authority to say that. Just that it's not logical.
I addressed your odd tunnel of believing this - why aren't you addressing me on my thoughts?
Your thoughts aren't particularly logical, yet you keep acting like they are so why not at least counter my thoughts instead of ignoring them?
In post 586, Chip Butty wrote:Okay, have read through the new stuff.

@Thor: you are pushing a skitter lynch quite hard. Could you please summarise the case against him, as you see it?
The Skitter case is the post Mulch pointed out paired with the wagon on Havo being filled with and on slots I otherwise townread more. Seriously, you think 0 scum voted in that one? *especially* if Havo is town but even if he's scum? Nah.
In post 591, skitter30 wrote:@Thor/Mulch:

What's the difference between and this:
In post 278, Chip Butty wrote:See, the thing for me isn't just the lack of reads, it's that you don't seem to be interested at all in asking people questions about their posts or scumhunting in general. Your focus seems to be entirely on the votes on you and how unfair it all is, and that seems scummy to me. After 250+ votes, are you really saying you've seen nothing worth following up on?
That Chip otherwise looks townish even if he's pushing bad logic, also he doubled down on the bad logic while you sat back and let other people push the agenda while keeping your hands clean.
In post 600, Toranaga wrote:pro town move my ASS!

ehhh I kinda like skitter too lol

can we just lynch misere please
Your Skitter read is out of nowhere and I strongly disagree. After watching your weak case on Misere I am almost scared to ask but...what was in Skitter's posts that looked town to you?
Because I'd much rather have your vote back on Skitter.
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Post Post #627 (ISO) » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:38 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

Mod, can we get a VC please?
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #628 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:20 am

Post by Virtuoso »

VC 1.12




Lynching

skitter30
(4): Fykus, MariaR, Thor665, Toranaga
Havo
(2): Misère, humaneatingmonkey
humaneatingmonkey
(1): BlueBloodedToffee
Sergtacos
(1): Mulch
Mulch
(1): Sergtacos
MariaR
(1): WhyMafia
Toranaga
(1): skitter30
BlueBloodedToffee
(1): Chip Butty

Not Voting
(1): Havo

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch


The day 1 deadline is in
: (expired on 2017-09-24 15:12:59)


Mod Notes
: Keep it fun.
Last edited by Virtuoso on Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #629 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:20 am

Post by Chip Butty »

In post 627, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
Mod, can we get a VC please?
LOL.
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Post Post #630 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:48 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 626, Thor665 wrote:The Skitter case is the post Mulch pointed out paired with the wagon on Havo being filled with and on slots I otherwise townread more. Seriously, you think 0 scum voted in that one? *especially* if Havo is town but even if he's scum? Nah.
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Post Post #631 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:12 am

Post by Chip Butty »

In post 630, Thor665 wrote:
In post 626, Thor665 wrote:The Skitter case is the post Mulch pointed out paired with the wagon on Havo being filled with and on slots I otherwise townread more. Seriously, you think 0 scum voted in that one? *especially* if Havo is town but even if he's scum? Nah.
@Chip
Yeah, it seems a bit thin. I don't think #154 was all that bad, since i was thinking the same thing. As for the Hava bw thing i think I'll delay judgement and see if he makes it through the night. Besides, i liked my interaction with Skitter recently, even when she was voting me. It kind of felt honest. Not buying, at this point in time.
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Post Post #632 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:20 am

Post by Sergtacos »

In post 617, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Will wait for a votecount before voting the largest wagon.

25 pages in and no lynch yet. The shame.
Out of everything to catch up with by only having 2 posts, you decided to post this? Scum alert. Welcome to my strong scum list. (I'm still catching up, just woke up) then I'll vote.
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Post Post #633 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:24 am

Post by Sergtacos »

In post 627, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
Mod, can we get a VC please?
Your next post after "why no lynch after 25 pages"
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Post Post #634 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:24 am

Post by Sergtacos »

VOTE: BlueBlood
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Post Post #635 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:27 am

Post by Sergtacos »

In post 54, Robbnva wrote:Pm'd the mod. Game is over. Game mod didn't update the game
In post 34, Robbnva wrote:1. Meta is garbage
2. From what I can tell mulch has only seen whymafia one game. So That's not enough to use garbage meta
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Post Post #636 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:34 am

Post by Sergtacos »

In post 635, Sergtacos wrote:
In post 54, Robbnva wrote:Pm'd the mod. Game is over. Game mod didn't update the game
Thor, to answer why I think Rob is lean town, this is one good post. It indicates that Rob was investigating into Mulch's game to see some meta, even though Rob believes that meta is garbage it still can be at use. I have been in a few games on this site and I think I have seen one or two games where someone posted their old games and someone would comment on that and investigate on it, and turned out town. I don't think the scums would investigate because it would be a waste of time? Just based on what I have seen, towns investigate old games.
In post 34, Robbnva wrote:1. Meta is garbage
2. From what I can tell mulch has only seen whymafia one game. So That's not enough to use garbage meta
Rob doesn't want to base meta for his reads because they can throw people off. However the last sentence gave me a feeling that he might try and see some points of a strong argument that involves meta, however Mulch's argument with meta was weak to Rob because he said that mulch only seen whymafia one game, however Mulch said there's more? thats not the point anyway, he doesn't want to rely on meta, and if its meta, it better be a damn good connection.
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Post Post #637 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:36 am

Post by Sergtacos »

In post 636, Sergtacos wrote:In post 635, Sergtacos wrote:
In post 54, Robbnva wrote:
Pm'd the mod. Game is over. Game mod didn't update the game


Thor, to answer why I think Rob is lean town, this is one good post. It indicates that Rob was investigating into Mulch's game to see some meta, even though Rob believes that meta is garbage it still can be at use. I have been in a few games on this site and I think I have seen one or two games where someone posted their old games and someone would comment on that and investigate on it, and turned out town. I don't think the scums would investigate because it would be a waste of time? Just based on what I have seen, towns investigate old games.
Thor, to answer why I think Rob is lean town, this is one good post. It indicates that Rob was investigating into Mulch's game to see some meta, even though Rob believes that meta is garbage it still can be at use. I have been in a few games on this site and I think I have seen one or two games where someone posted their old games and someone would comment on that and investigate on it, and turned out town. I don't think the scums would investigate because it would be a waste of time? Just based on what I have seen, towns investigate old games.

dont know why that was IN the quotes lol
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Post Post #638 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:36 am

Post by Sergtacos »

Well, I won't be back until tonight. Hooray for college.
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Post Post #639 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:53 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 631, Chip Butty wrote:
In post 630, Thor665 wrote:
In post 626, Thor665 wrote:The Skitter case is the post Mulch pointed out paired with the wagon on Havo being filled with and on slots I otherwise townread more. Seriously, you think 0 scum voted in that one? *especially* if Havo is town but even if he's scum? Nah.
@Chip
Yeah, it seems a bit thin. I don't think #154 was all that bad, since i was thinking the same thing. As for the Hava bw thing i think I'll delay judgement and see if he makes it through the night. Besides, i liked my interaction with Skitter recently, even when she was voting me. It kind of felt honest. Not buying, at this point in time.
What's so thin about it?
There was a wagon up to L-1.
With the current claims we have it's pretty safe to assume Havo is town, and even if you think he's scum he was probably bussed.
So who is the most likely scum on that wagon in your opinion and why?
In post 636, Sergtacos wrote:Thor, to answer why I think Rob is lean town, this is one good post. It indicates that Rob was investigating into Mulch's game to see some meta, even though Rob believes that meta is garbage it still can be at use. I have been in a few games on this site and I think I have seen one or two games where someone posted their old games and someone would comment on that and investigate on it, and turned out town. I don't think the scums would investigate because it would be a waste of time? Just based on what I have seen, towns investigate old games.
You and I look at that post and see opposite things.
Yeah, we can tell he clicked on the link - but by him claiming the game was still active (which means he didn't actually do anything than glance at the title and *certainly* didn't look at the last few pages, it shows he didn't read it at all.
Which means he wasn't actually doing investigation - he was just looking for an excuse to attack Mulch's stance.
So why does that town ping you?
It scum pings to me.
In post 636, Sergtacos wrote:Rob doesn't want to base meta for his reads because they can throw people off. However the last sentence gave me a feeling that he might try and see some points of a strong argument that involves meta, however Mulch's argument with meta was weak to Rob because he said that mulch only seen whymafia one game, however Mulch said there's more? thats not the point anyway, he doesn't want to rely on meta, and if its meta, it better be a damn good connection.
He calls Mulch's meta case garbage (without understanding it or doing any research).
He then even tries to weaken it further by claiming that 'meh, only one game' somehow weakens an already weak read further (without actually doing much analysis of Mulch's general experience with WhyMafia.
In other words, he's taking a lot of effort to attack someone town reading someone else.
That's more likely to come from scum than town in my opinion, and even if you generally disagree it's hardly an impressive town tell and is assuredly not showing any open mindedness from Robb's part (who was even claiming Millers are so rare Why *must* be scum because...rare!).
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Post Post #640 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:33 am

Post by MariaR »

Time to play catch up at page 15 whew
I bet Maria is scum this game
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Post Post #641 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:56 am

Post by Misère »

UNVOTE: Havo
I read ahead just enough to see that Havo finally hard-claimed. In the absence of a second cop claim I have to at least provisionally accept him as town.

@MOD
Speaking entirely hypothetically, if a Loyal Cop were to target a Town Miller, what sort of result would they get? (Specifically, would it be identical to the result for targeting a Mafia Goon?)

Spoiler: Wall of catch-up reactions, pp. 7-14
In post 151, Chip Butty wrote:Sorry, but someone has to go and there isn't any solid evidence on D1. Not sure there is any value in dragging D1 out to a two week talkfest. We just have to go on people's reactions, and yours have been anything but reassuring.
This seems to be written from the perspective that you don't actually believe Havo is scum.
In post 157, Havo wrote:This is where I'd normally say go ahead and lynch me, cause town could do worse. But this time town could literally NOT do worse. Lynching me is the worst thing town could do.
If your 'soft' is this hard, you might as well just say "HI I'M A COP" right here.
In post 164, MariaR wrote:Hello? Why do we have Havo at L-1 7 pages in when there clearly softing PR. Get off this wagon the fact it picked up so fast with no counter wagon is red flags all over.
If you think Havo is scum we can come back later. Let's vote the band wagon jumper.

VOTE: Chip
Good vote. Bad post re. Havo. It's not hard to see why Havo was where he was at this point, and the heavy softing had only just started.

Mulch's is good analysis, and he follows up with a readlist. I'm calling him town.
In post 187, MariaR wrote:Like honest to god you know how easy it is to fake a god dam reads list if you want to it's not that hard at all. Being sr for lack of reads is fucking stupid because coming up with genuine reads for some people takes time
Maria's best post so far. It comes from a townish mindset and one I understand.
In post 202, MariaR wrote:I know but it's still the point that triggers me the most. I understand where Havo is coming from. I don't think a wagon magically shows up on scum 7 papges in and it's super sub optimal to lynch him here because if it's a town pr we get barely any info and we're in an awful spot we let mafia handle him or come back to him later but not today.
  1. Off-topic, please don't use mental health terminology this lightly. It makes it harder for PTSD sufferers to be taken seriously.
  2. If you look at my one other game played under this account, the very first wagon in the game was on scum. In fact this worked in their favor because whenever anyone tried to push him again they got a big "I can't believe you're still on that, that was at the beginning of the game" reaction, even though no one ever answered the actual points against him. Saying someone is less likely scum if they were wagoned early is just empirically false.
In post 214, Mulch wrote:This sentence basically sums up EXACTLY why towns on mafiascum are straight trash. "-If almost everyone agrees on a wagon you're most likely wrong" what the fuCK? This is what a town should STRIVE FOR. THis is the END GOAL. The fact that there is unity is GOOD. There are THREE scum here, and 12 town. That means a VAST MAJORITY of town are agreeing. And scum are very very likely to busy day 1. Even if there is a scum snuck in there, it means nothing.Of COURSE they aren't going to make that arguement, no scum is shit enough to do that. And no, wagons on scum are very very fluid day one and yes, stick. These ideas are so wrong. So so wrong
QFT.
In post 220, Mulch wrote:Alright. I disagree with your points entirely and it's making me angry but I'm more voting you for and
These are the correct reasons to vote Maria.
In post 232, Sergtacos wrote:Strong town: none
lean town: Robbnva
Null: None
lean scum: Monkey, whymafia, mulch, tor
Strong scum:

So far.
Severely incomplete read list. Opinions are good, you should have them.
In post 249, Chip Butty wrote:About the Havo soft: If he really is a PR then drawing massive attention to himself by obstinately refusing to provide reads and doing all that complaining was a terrible way to play it. Also the alleged soft was so obvious he might as well have just hardclaimed a big PR. I agree we need to see a fullclaim at this point.
Agreed with this.
In post 237, Sergtacos wrote:If he flips miller then we waste our day. If he flips scum, then that would be beneficial. How about we analyze and bring in discussions before we actually proceed with this lynch?
In post 240, Sergtacos wrote:If whymafia is scum and if you're scum, you're bussing xD so i find it hypocritical if you two are scums xD
In post 244, Sergtacos wrote:Who lynched? Whymafia? But if he ends up flipping miller then what? Thats my biggest concern here. I mean, if i was miller i would hard claim D1 too in the beginning as soon as possible.
In post 248, Sergtacos wrote:Honestly this gives me a headache because monkey is right though. If there's a lynch or lose situation and lets say whymafia is actually town and survives until lynch or lose, he might get lynched at the lynch or lose phase.
In post 251, Sergtacos wrote:But if whymafia is actually scum, we're falling for his fake claim, however if he's town, im pretty sure scums would want to keep him alive until lynch or lose.
Fluff, fluff, fluff, fluff, fluff. "If we lynch WhyMafia and he's town, that would be bad. But if we lynch him and he's scum, that would be good." Thanks for that keen insight.
In post 324, Chip Butty wrote:Man, that was epic! If you guys are scum v scum, my hat is off to you.
I literally thought exactly this right before reading this post.
In post 329, Thor665 wrote:
In post 82, Mulch wrote:
In post 80, Virtuoso wrote:
Robbnva has requested replacement. Searching now.
I hate to say it but I think that in all likelihood a chance of a town win just went up lol
By saying this, are you claiming Robbnva's slot as town?
Why? Like, he literally has no town vibes worth speaking of, and you're cracking a joke that requires him to be town - what's up?
This is an interesting observation. I can't decide whether to take it seriously as a potential slip, though.
In post 337, Sergtacos wrote:
In post 157, Havo wrote:L - 1.

This is where I'd normally say go ahead and lynch me, cause town could do worse.

But this time town could literally NOT do worse.

Lynching me is the worst thing town could do.
PR slip?
More hard-hitting analysis from Sergtacos.
In post 340, Havo wrote:***** My first Read List *****

I'm heavily Scum reading the guys STILL voting me after I have claimed a town PR.

This action alone, a day and a half into a 14 day 1, is scummier than anything I'm

Being voted for in the first place.
Lazy. And what's the point of softing if you're going to then say "I HAVE A TOWN PR" in black and white? It won't save you from being shot, all it will do is make it harder for town to make up their minds.
In post 342, Sergtacos wrote:
In post 169, humaneatingmonkey wrote: Skitter
#111
"@HEM: Do you think WM is scum? Or are you pushing a policy lynch on him? Similarly, do you actually want to lynch him today?"
Not overwhelmingly. It's a policy lynch, technically. I want him out so we don't have to deal with the slot later, and then analyze based on what happened to the slot later. I think it's because scum would advocate for his survival to the point of LYLO, where it would be too late.
This tone and your statement on Whymafia sounds like whymafia is actually a miller and you're scum. You're back and forth on my reads. I can understand why we should policy lynch him however I do get a sense that whymafia is town because his interaction from all this and this post. This post is giving me scummy vibes. It feels like to me YOU know which is why I won't be surprised if whymafia flips miller so you would get "Credit." that won't work on me.
First good post from Sergtacos.
In post 347, Sergtacos wrote:Funny how you want a hard claim from him and not from everyone else? we might as well say fuck it and announce all of our roles.

So far, Whymafia= Miller

Anyone else want to hardclaim?

See how stupid this is? Why are you so demanding for Havo's full claim when there's still 2 weeks ahead of us for D1! Like I would expect a hard claim in D3 and/or D4, maybe D2 depending on the situation but wth.
This post, on the other hand, is willful misrepping. There is a huge difference between wanting a really scummy player who is the top lynch candidate and has already softed power to claim, and wanting everyone to claim. Given that it leads into a vote for Mulch, this looks like Serg has decided to scumread Mulch and is looking for a reason.
In post 348, Chip Butty wrote:It's simple. Havo said that lynching him is the worst thing town can do. That is, he is claiming the strongest PR. So he is already going to be a prime target for NK. So there is no greater risk to town if he actually specifies what he is claiming.

Atm he has made it clear he is seeking the protection from lynching that a claim usually affords, while dodging the risk of being cc-ed that comes with a specific claim.

Thus a specific claim has upside for town and no downside. Leaving things as they stand just opens up the possibility of letting scum.havo cruise. Downside for town with no upside.
Image


tl;dr:
Havo's obstinacy is so self-defeating that he may actually be town. Sergtacos looks bad. MariaR looks bad. Mulch looks great. Chip Butty is making a lot of sense but, as of page 14, I'm not committed to saying that makes him town.
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Post Post #642 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:19 am

Post by Virtuoso »

Vote count has been posted

In post 641, Misère wrote:@MOD Speaking entirely hypothetically, if a Loyal Cop were to target a Town Miller, what sort of result would they get? (Specifically, would it be identical to the result for targeting a Mafia Goon?)
Hypothetically a loyal cop's action will only work if he targets town players. A town miller yields a guilty result even for the loyal cop. Loyal cops get no results on mafia, serial killers, ascetics (either faction), and when they are roleblocked by any means.
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Post Post #643 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:21 am

Post by WhyMafia »

Tacos please respond to mis
Anyone feeling a taco wagon?
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humaneatingmonkey
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Post Post #644 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:47 am

Post by humaneatingmonkey »

Fykus... What do you think? Do you think Sergtacos finally hit scum this time? Tried looking through his games—no instance where he's scum. He's a risky lynch. Plus, the fact that I don't scumread Robbnva.
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Thor665
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Post Post #645 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:00 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 626, Thor665 wrote:
In post 561, humaneatingmonkey wrote:Tornaga, if you read what he paraphrased the utility of his role, it doesn't make sense with the miller claim. The miller returns as a mafia, while the loyal cop only tells who doesn't belong to the alignment. The miller belongs to this alignment anyway, so normal cop would have been more than okay. I don't think the setup would have been approved otherwise but I'm in no authority to say that. Just that it's not logical.
I addressed your odd tunnel of believing this - why aren't you addressing me on my thoughts?
Your thoughts aren't particularly logical, yet you keep acting like they are so why not at least counter my thoughts instead of ignoring them?
@humaneatingmonkey

I'm pretty sure people talking to each other and discussing thoughts is half the game.
In post 643, WhyMafia wrote:Tacos please respond to mis
Anyone feeling a taco wagon?
Not really.
He isn't overawing me with town vibes, but he's assuredly not in my top three scum thoughts either.
Do you oppose a Skitter wagon?
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humaneatingmonkey
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Post Post #646 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:29 am

Post by humaneatingmonkey »

I'm seeing you Thor I'm just a lazy person. I'll get back to you plus my Sergtacos read later
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Post Post #647 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:02 am

Post by Thor665 »

Okay?
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Misère
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Post Post #648 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:06 am

Post by Misère »

Still not caught up past page 14, but noticed Toranaga's abortive push on me. Saying I look scummy and then saying "wait, this is actually fine" when he goes back and looks at my posts indicates a gut read of the sort he couldn't actually have if he were scum.
ननु वक्तृविशेष नि:स्पृहा गुणगृह्या वचने विपश्चितः
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Post Post #649 (ISO) » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:16 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

VOTE: Skitter
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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